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VOR Leg 5


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#1901 onimod

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:55 AM

G4 is floating around on what must be almost glass only 15nm from Itajai.

#1902 harzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:23 PM

What's known about the VMG of Camper on a beat in various conditions?

Although it looks good until the rounding of the Horn, longterm forecast shows light and unstable winds inside the Falklands, but healthy winds from nw outside. They need a mean VMG of about 8-9kn to catch the inport, and about 12-13kn to get 3 full days of rest.



Edit: BTW, the tracker's in live mode for Groupama's finish.

#1903 smackdaddy

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:09 PM


http://www.volvoocea...ood-as-new.html
His wound to the wrist could have been much more serious, it seems...
Brad was lucky, as he is back on the boat, and is even trying his hand at the helm during the shifts.

smart move ;)


Most important lesson learned: cutting through muscle, veins and tendons doesn't quite have the same feel as dyneema.

#1904 CDR

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:11 PM


On Pit Stops:
There is nothing wrong with pulling in behind an Island, getting some rest and patching a few things that couldn't be done properly at sea.
This makes sense if there are brutal conditions, such as in the Straits of Luzon during the last race or if conditions are sufficiently adverse that sailing will simply mean you are pounding your head against the wall.
Nothing unfair about it, just good seamanship.

Assume Telefonica wasn't damaged, but was in the same relative position to Puma and Groupama. If Iker pulled into a cove on the Island of Cape horn and said, "That was brutal, we are going to give ourselves 24 hours to recharge, recoup and put the ship right before heading up the Atlantic." We all would have thought he was nuts.
If the then said," The weather model indicates that our best chance of overhauling Puma is to delay 24 hours and ride a series of frontal systems, we predict our 200+ mile deficit will be reduced to a single shift or puff on the final approach to the finish." We would have been blown away by his confidence and the accuracy of his prediction.
In this case AWESOME seamanship.

I don't even think that going ashore on a nearby island, picking up a few bottles of milk and a bag of cookies is a problem.
But I do think that having the shipwrights come aboard and rebuild stuff is outside the box.
Now I don't know really what I think about having a box of boat building materials dropped off and having the sailing crew do the repair while behind the island. Maybe is the same repair kit was available to everyone?
SHC


Bang on about "pulling into a cove" as part of offshore racing tactics, Steve.

In the '81 heavy weather Quarter Ton Cup, two of the leading boats, "heavily" skippered by Bruno Troublé and Daniel Andrieu, went waiting under the lee of Cape Sicie (Med), letting others face disaster in brutal winds and hainous waves, around the cape.
Leaving few hours later in abatting weather and right on course, they went on to score 2nd and 1st in that long distance race and therefore 1st and 2nd in the cup !


Definitely.

But if one starts the fuel-to-noise-converter to either shelter or go for repairs he is out of the race.
So why do Groupama and possibly Camper have the chance to get points for leg 5??

#1905 harzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:43 PM

But if one starts the fuel-to-noise-converter to either shelter or go for repairs he is out of the race.
So why do Groupama and possibly Camper have the chance to get points for leg 5??

Sounds like a rethorical question, but I'll answer anyway:
If a boat suspends racing before starting the engine, it's all OK by VOR rules&regulations. Minimum time suspended is 12 hours, and the boat must resume sailing from the place where the suspencion started.

#1906 Icedtea

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:52 PM

agree with not allowing the shipwrights on board when they stop, race should be someway self sufficient during a leg

#1907 HWW

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:08 PM

Live racetracker reports Groupama finished

#1908 harzak

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:17 PM

Clean, any news yet on when the protest against Telefonica will be heard?

I hope we won't have to wait until Camper arrives.

#1909 CDR

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:24 PM


But if one starts the fuel-to-noise-converter to either shelter or go for repairs he is out of the race.
So why do Groupama and possibly Camper have the chance to get points for leg 5??

Sounds like a rethorical question, but I'll answer anyway:
If a boat suspends racing before starting the engine, it's all OK by VOR rules&regulations. Minimum time suspended is 12 hours, and the boat must resume sailing from the place where the suspencion started.


Thanks Harzak - I thougt it is something like this.
But as i.e. Puma I would fume: although keeping things fixed and the boat swimming the others climb up the scoreboard too.
But as i.e. Abu Dabhi I would fume too: no coast nearby at the incident – no chance to add to the scoreboard.
It seems to be a rule for the lucky guys.

#1910 Alpina

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:14 PM

If Telefonica doesn't hit any of the obstacles the other have, they will win only because of that.

#1911 Heriberto

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:52 PM

Given how Telefonica was sailing, I think they could easily make the argument that they would have decided to finish without fixing the boat and still come in second (given Grouphama dismasting). They just would have been farther back.

#1912 dlangpap

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:04 PM



But if one starts the fuel-to-noise-converter to either shelter or go for repairs he is out of the race.
So why do Groupama and possibly Camper have the chance to get points for leg 5??

Sounds like a rethorical question, but I'll answer anyway:
If a boat suspends racing before starting the engine, it's all OK by VOR rules&regulations. Minimum time suspended is 12 hours, and the boat must resume sailing from the place where the suspencion started.


Thanks Harzak - I thougt it is something like this.
But as i.e. Puma I would fume: although keeping things fixed and the boat swimming the others climb up the scoreboard too.
But as i.e. Abu Dabhi I would fume too: no coast nearby at the incident – no chance to add to the scoreboard.
It seems to be a rule for the lucky guys.


+1 Puma's result on this leg is so much higher above everyone else (yes, including TLF), yet their points are not. By the way, does anyone else have the feeling of watching a delivery by GPMA and Camper's crews now?

#1913 Johnc7777

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:48 PM

How did Puma run out of Food?

Sorry, No eating.

Hard to function on no energy.

#1914 clamslapper

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:59 PM

How did Puma run out of Food?

Sorry, No eating.

Hard to function on no energy.




I was wondering that too. They ran out of food on the leg into Auckland too. You'd think they would know by now to just pack more food. I think the boat consumes about 60,000 calories a day of food. A few extra days of freeze dried provisions certainly doesn't weight much. Long and short, you're hardly going to get the best performance from the crew without adequate food.

#1915 clamslapper

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:03 PM




But if one starts the fuel-to-noise-converter to either shelter or go for repairs he is out of the race.
So why do Groupama and possibly Camper have the chance to get points for leg 5??

Sounds like a rethorical question, but I'll answer anyway:
If a boat suspends racing before starting the engine, it's all OK by VOR rules&regulations. Minimum time suspended is 12 hours, and the boat must resume sailing from the place where the suspencion started.


Thanks Harzak - I thougt it is something like this.
But as i.e. Puma I would fume: although keeping things fixed and the boat swimming the others climb up the scoreboard too.
But as i.e. Abu Dabhi I would fume too: no coast nearby at the incident – no chance to add to the scoreboard.
It seems to be a rule for the lucky guys.


+1 Puma's result on this leg is so much higher above everyone else (yes, including TLF), yet their points are not. By the way, does anyone else have the feeling of watching a delivery by GPMA and Camper's crews now?




Totally agree. It's a damned good thing Tele didn't pick them off after all, because I think it would have simply been wrong, wrong, wrong, and highlighted even more sharply the opinion of many folks that the VOR rules are pretty stupidly drafted.

#1916 Panoramix

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:32 PM



But if one starts the fuel-to-noise-converter to either shelter or go for repairs he is out of the race.
So why do Groupama and possibly Camper have the chance to get points for leg 5??

Sounds like a rethorical question, but I'll answer anyway:
If a boat suspends racing before starting the engine, it's all OK by VOR rules&regulations. Minimum time suspended is 12 hours, and the boat must resume sailing from the place where the suspencion started.


Thanks Harzak - I thougt it is something like this.
But as i.e. Puma I would fume: although keeping things fixed and the boat swimming the others climb up the scoreboard too.
But as i.e. Abu Dabhi I would fume too: no coast nearby at the incident – no chance to add to the scoreboard.
It seems to be a rule for the lucky guys.


There is always a bit of luck. Groupama could have lost its mast in the pacific and been unable to secure its points or could have been lucky and discover a nearly failed bit in Itajai and secure 30 points. Telefonica could have been unlucky and see the boat falling into bits as they were pushing to the Horn... The margin between success and failure is narrow. May be Puma is quiet about something that nearly ruined their leg, obviously they've sailed much better but you can never rule out a catastrophe from a minor problem. The good side of the point system is that as long as you are reasonably unlucky, you can still come back.

On a delivery I once lost a safety pin on my leeward D2 and only noticed it as the cable started banging against the genoa. If I had tacked half an hour before with just one or two threads holding, may be I would have lost my mast for a pin that cost a few pence to replace and 10 minutes to secure. At the time I blamed the disorganised chop of the channel for making things go loose.:P

These guys are really rigorous and probably look better after their rig than i was but this is to highlight that, a tiny thing can have big consequences, this was in the TSS and i could easily have tacked to avoid a tanker.

#1917 Koukel

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:43 PM

Totally agree. It's a damned good thing Tele didn't pick them off after all, because I think it would have simply been wrong, wrong, wrong, and highlighted even more sharply the opinion of many folks that the VOR rules are pretty stupidly drafted.

Totally entitled to your opinion, but what part about taking a twelve hour penalty is 3 x wrong? If Puma and Groupama would have gone for the pin as fast as possible rather than cover, the result wouldn't have been so close. Instead they covered each other, assuming they could stay between Tele and the finish line, and for Puma it worked.

Haven't you ever come back from behind or lost a big lead? The whole concept of "break away speed" is what got me into racing in the first place. "You mean if I totally suck compared to that guy and my boat is heavy and my main is beat and my trim is iffy I can still win every once in a while? What a great friggen game!"

These aren't Cal20s, these are performance boats. The whole course is relatively compressed vs. slower rides. Puma kept their cool, got a few breaks and won. Tele kept their cool, got a big break and came in second.

Koukel

#1918 clamslapper

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:23 PM


Totally agree. It's a damned good thing Tele didn't pick them off after all, because I think it would have simply been wrong, wrong, wrong, and highlighted even more sharply the opinion of many folks that the VOR rules are pretty stupidly drafted.

Totally entitled to your opinion, but what part about taking a twelve hour penalty is 3 x wrong? If Puma and Groupama would have gone for the pin as fast as possible rather than cover, the result wouldn't have been so close. Instead they covered each other, assuming they could stay between Tele and the finish line, and for Puma it worked.

Haven't you ever come back from behind or lost a big lead? The whole concept of "break away speed" is what got me into racing in the first place. "You mean if I totally suck compared to that guy and my boat is heavy and my main is beat and my trim is iffy I can still win every once in a while? What a great friggen game!"

These aren't Cal20s, these are performance boats. The whole course is relatively compressed vs. slower rides. Puma kept their cool, got a few breaks and won. Tele kept their cool, got a big break and came in second.

Koukel



To me it's not so much a problem that they had the necessary repairs done per se. However, I believe it subsequently came out that they took on food and used it as an occasion to renew many things on the boat. I realize that's in keeping with the VOR rules, and by no means am i accusing anyone of cheating, but to make this kind of "pit stop" should, in my view, have much more dire consquences than simply forfeiting 12 hours. The simple fact that Puma ran out of food and had to make do, while these guys were getting topped up across the board, to me really speaks to the inadequacy of the current rules.

Furthermore, I fail to see why Tele required any outside assistance at all. Iker was quoted as saying something to the effect of, the repair will be easy in flat water at anchor; we just can't do it in these huge waves. Why didn't they just pull into the cove and fix their boat themselves?

#1919 Koukel

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:45 PM

On a delivery I once lost a safety pin on my leeward D2 and only noticed it as the cable started banging against the genoa. If I had tacked half an hour before with just one or two threads holding, may be I would have lost my mast for a pin that cost a few pence to replace and 10 minutes to secure. At the time I blamed the disorganised chop of the channel for making things go loose.:P

I came in third in a big race once. Less than 30 seconds after the gun, we eased the main and my running backstay blew up. I think we were super lucky it didn't happen while racing and crash the rig. My crew said we got screwed, because if the wind had waited 30 minutes to hit 25, we would have won. I don't think the actual sailors are whining about luck; luck happens.

Koukel

#1920 tama_manu

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:52 AM

By the way, does anyone else have the feeling of watching a delivery by GPMA and Camper's crews now?

Yep, moving these boats from one port to the another seem like deliveries, not races. But right now Camper is rounding Cape Horn just squeaking in front of 40+ knot system of cold wind. That's still moderately interesting.

#1921 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:56 AM

Sanya tweeted that Abu Dhabi had left Puerto Mont bound for Itajal with a due date of the 17th, leaving four days to make the repairs. That will be tight.

Camper will take just over 5 days according to the routing. Looks like a wet and cold ride for a few days.

Attached File  Camper-1.jpg   396.99K   16 downloads

All crews will looking forward to the in-port race and then heading North again.

Despite the disappointment of the damage in this leg it did reveal a lot of character, resourcefulness and commitment from the teams. The Camper and Telefonica shore crews pulled off some logistically difficult tasks. The Abu Dhabi guys will be wishing that they could have fixed their boat and continued sailing as well. Missing out on sailing around Cape Horn will be gutting.

There's a lot to like about many of the characters involved in the various teams. Kenny Read seems to always have a great attitude. The Sanya guys were living the dream before their rudder broke. The only crew who don't seem to be having a good time are Abu Dhabi - I hope it gets better for them from here on in.

A special call-out has to be made for Brad Marsh's girlfriend, who was waiting for him on the dock in a nurses costume. Even though she's not on the sailing team she has to be the SCOTW for that effort. Even hanging around with French blokes seems to increase your chances with the chicks.

#1922 nixon

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:43 AM

...
A special call-out has to be made for Brad Marsh's girlfriend, who was waiting for him on the dock in a nurses costume. Even though she's not on the sailing team she has to be the SCOTW for that effort. Even hanging around with French blokes seems to increase your chances with the chicks.

Attached File  bm.jpg   61.97K   177 downloads
or even a caption contest...
I suspect someone is getting lucky right about now!

#1923 uncle chop chop

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:42 AM

http://www.sail-worl...eam-Sanya/95930
WTF is going on with g4 in this photo. I have jacked 747s,767s and multiple scarebuses and never left them looking like this!

p.s have never posted a link so may not work, just look at sailworld website regarding Sanyas lost rudder

#1924 Dave S

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:26 AM

Optical illusion - you're just looking at a reflection in the side of the hull...

#1925 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:02 AM

from Sail-world

Sanya, the Chinese sponsored entry suffered a broken rudder in the Southern Ocean while sailing at 25 knots and leading the other five competitors in the 2011/12 Volvo Ocean Race. She took eight days to sail back to the port of Tauranga where she was loaded on a ship for Miami, USA where she will rejoin the race.

'As it turned out we were very fortunate to have come back to the dock,' Sanderson told Sail-World.com. 'When we hauled the boat we found a 1.5metre crack in the bottom. The crack ran at a 45 degree angle from the propeller box to the rudder we had broken.'

'It was through the outside skin. We were lucky to have got back to New Zealand. Otherwise we were in a world of bother,' reflected Sanderson, in one of the great understatements of sailing.

'When we hit something in the first leg, the split in the hull was contained within the watertight bulkhead area in the bow. The issue we would have had here was that the split would have been in the middle of the boat. The watertight ends can hold the boat afloat, but in all seriousness, I would not like to be testing that ability, where we were, in the Southern Ocean.

#1926 gybe-ho!

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:35 AM


...
A special call-out has to be made for Brad Marsh's girlfriend, who was waiting for him on the dock in a nurses costume. Even though she's not on the sailing team she has to be the SCOTW for that effort. Even hanging around with French blokes seems to increase your chances with the chicks.

Attached File  bm.jpg   61.97K   177 downloads
or even a caption contest...
I suspect someone is getting lucky right about now!


Brad Marsh's girlfriend...Robin Hilton, is one of the riggers for Team Sanya.

#1927 STYACHT

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:09 PM

from Sail-world

Sanya, the Chinese sponsored entry suffered a broken rudder in the Southern Ocean while sailing at 25 knots and leading the other five competitors in the 2011/12 Volvo Ocean Race. She took eight days to sail back to the port of Tauranga where she was loaded on a ship for Miami, USA where she will rejoin the race.

'As it turned out we were very fortunate to have come back to the dock,' Sanderson told Sail-World.com. 'When we hauled the boat we found a 1.5metre crack in the bottom. The crack ran at a 45 degree angle from the propeller box to the rudder we had broken.'

'It was through the outside skin. We were lucky to have got back to New Zealand. Otherwise we were in a world of bother,' reflected Sanderson, in one of the great understatements of sailing.

'When we hit something in the first leg, the split in the hull was contained within the watertight bulkhead area in the bow. The issue we would have had here was that the split would have been in the middle of the boat. The watertight ends can hold the boat afloat, but in all seriousness, I would not like to be testing that ability, where we were, in the Southern Ocean.


!!!

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water. A boat that was widely regarded as trouble free in the last VOR twisting itself to death. I am trying to figure the broken rudder anyway, up near the upper bearing, so this gives a clue. Hull was maybe damaged before the rudder broke, causing the bearings to no longer be in a line. Clearly such a shear load would break the stock where the shear resistance was least. Maybe it was a UFO hit, which did not initially break the stock at lower bearing, but essentially pulled the rudder aft, causing the shear failure in the hull shell, and displacing the rudder so far, it broke in shear at top. Guess they would have seen the UFO in that case, so maybe not.

#1928 Big Show

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:34 PM

'It was through the outside skin. We were lucky to have got back to New Zealand. Otherwise we were in a world of bother,' reflected Sanderson, in one of the great understatements of sailing.

Wow. Just - wow.

Calamity after calamity... Just get to Galway safely everyone.

#1929 Terrorvision

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:10 PM

What was the now Sanya doing between finishing as Telefonica in the previous VOR and being scooped up by Moose?

I can't help but think that it wouldn't have been his first choice!

#1930 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:19 PM

What was the now Sanya doing between finishing as Telefonica in the previous VOR and being scooped up by Moose?

I can't help but think that it wouldn't have been his first choice!



Yeah you would certainly wonder. Wonder how cheap it was...

#1931 valor

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:16 PM


What was the now Sanya doing between finishing as Telefonica in the previous VOR and being scooped up by Moose?

I can't help but think that it wouldn't have been his first choice!



Yeah you would certainly wonder. Wonder how cheap it was...


My recollection of the discussion back when Moose announced his intention of entering the race last spring/summer...
He was looking at several "last" generation boats and chose the Tele boat. Team Telephonica, through consultations with Juan K, had made modifications to the boat. Presumably these were done for design testing for their current boat (Juan K). Moose chose the old boat after talking to Juan K. Just my recollection....!

#1932 valor

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 03:09 PM



What was the now Sanya doing between finishing as Telefonica in the previous VOR and being scooped up by Moose?

I can't help but think that it wouldn't have been his first choice!



Yeah you would certainly wonder. Wonder how cheap it was...


My recollection of the discussion back when Moose announced his intention of entering the race last spring/summer...
He was looking at several "last" generation boats and chose the Tele boat. Team Telephonica, through consultations with Juan K, had made modifications to the boat. Presumably these were done for design testing for their current boat (Juan K). Moose chose the old boat after talking to Juan K. Just my recollection....!


from a SA Forum post back in June 2011...

Team Sanya confirm their yacht
Mike Sanderson's Volvo Ocean Race team to go with Telefonica Blue

Monday June 27th 2011, Author: Leslie Greenhalgh, Location: none selected Following on from the announcement of Team Sanya as the new Chinese entry in the forthcoming 2011-2012 Volvo Ocean Race, the team today revealed which boat they have selected to purchase, modify and race in the next edition of the race event.

Telefonica Blue, is the boat that Team Sanya has now purchased and she will be called Sanya Lan from now onwards. Telefonica Blue competed in the 2008 - 2009 edition of the Volvo Ocean Race and finished in third position on the podium.

Mike Sanderson, Skipper, explained the reasons behind the team selecting this boat: “We had a number of options on which boat to buy, all the boats available had their merits. Our decision to go for Telefonica Blue in the end was based around the fact that we believe the boat gives us the best chance to be on the podium as often as possible. This campaign is very late in getting going, and there is no doubt that we are handicapped by having to use an older generation boat. That said, we know we need to pitch the boat’s performance into a corner and Telefonica Blue last time was very quick in the light and moderate conditions and potent during inshore racing. Seeing the new boats launched so far, it appears she still might be okay in these conditions, only time will tell of course, but we do feel that she will offer us a great opportunity to have our 'day in the sun'. Those of you that remember my daily logs from my last race will remember that I can get quite superstitious, so she will be named Sanya Lan (Lan means Blue in Chinese) to keep the Sea Gods happy!”.

#1933 Terrorvision

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:35 PM

OK- so let's narrow down what other boats he may have been looking at. Rusalka and Green Dragon.......... all the others were pretty well spoken for and would be very unlikely to have been made available to a competitor team.

#1934 smackdaddy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:44 PM




What was the now Sanya doing between finishing as Telefonica in the previous VOR and being scooped up by Moose?

I can't help but think that it wouldn't have been his first choice!



Yeah you would certainly wonder. Wonder how cheap it was...


My recollection of the discussion back when Moose announced his intention of entering the race last spring/summer...
He was looking at several "last" generation boats and chose the Tele boat. Team Telephonica, through consultations with Juan K, had made modifications to the boat. Presumably these were done for design testing for their current boat (Juan K). Moose chose the old boat after talking to Juan K. Just my recollection....!


That said, we know we need to pitch the boat's performance into a corner and Telefonica Blue last time was very quick in the light and moderate conditions and potent during inshore racing. Seeing the new boats launched so far, it appears she still might be okay in these conditions...


So, there is the design brief apparently. Maybe that explains the widespread SO destruction?

#1935 Terrorvision

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:48 PM





What was the now Sanya doing between finishing as Telefonica in the previous VOR and being scooped up by Moose?

I can't help but think that it wouldn't have been his first choice!



Yeah you would certainly wonder. Wonder how cheap it was...


My recollection of the discussion back when Moose announced his intention of entering the race last spring/summer...
He was looking at several "last" generation boats and chose the Tele boat. Team Telephonica, through consultations with Juan K, had made modifications to the boat. Presumably these were done for design testing for their current boat (Juan K). Moose chose the old boat after talking to Juan K. Just my recollection....!


That said, we know we need to pitch the boat's performance into a corner and Telefonica Blue last time was very quick in the light and moderate conditions and potent during inshore racing. Seeing the new boats launched so far, it appears she still might be okay in these conditions...


So, there is the design brief apparently. Maybe that explains the widespread SO destruction?

I think the second sentence is more telling- that they looked at the other boats and still though t that Telefonica Blue was still on-par for the SO. And their position when they hit a UFO/whatever happened shows they were, even when they were initially parametered for 'quick and light'.

#1936 Jammen

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:58 PM

Since all boat where backing of from 100% in SO any of the old VO70 could keep up with the leading boats if they pushed 100% but would probably break eariler than the newer...

#1937 Terrorvision

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:08 PM

Since all boat where backing of from 100% in SO any of the old VO70 could keep up with the leading boats if they pushed 100% but would probably break eariler than the newer...


But that's the whole point, they were leading before they hit the SO proper and dropped out because they hit something as opposed to shitting themselves like AUD did before them and Camper did soon after.

#1938 smackdaddy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:18 PM


Since all boat where backing of from 100% in SO any of the old VO70 could keep up with the leading boats if they pushed 100% but would probably break eariler than the newer...


But that's the whole point, they were leading before they hit the SO proper and dropped out because they hit something as opposed to shitting themselves like AUD did before them and Camper did soon after.


That's right - and that's the point of my post above. If Moose was trying to keep up with the new boats as he says - all of which were moving toward lighter/moderate conditions and in-ports as the overriding spec, that helps explain all the problems we've seen with breakages. They just weren't built for pushing in the SO.

#1939 smackdaddy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:51 PM

WOW! JuanK speaks out on the breakage issues for VSail:

http://www.vsail.inf...lvo-ocean-race/

I believe we are presented with an intentional manipulation of the truth.

There is a common, spread notion that ALL the participants of this VOR have structural problems, that the situation is unacceptable and that something needs to be done for the future. A fundamental distinction needs to be done between the mast breakages and the rest, and whilst I think it is very important to understand what caused so many mast failures, it is a travesty of the truth to put ALL designs in the same basket when it comes down to the "other" structural issues.


This generalization might suit a specific Team, or person to push any agenda he might have for the future, but out of respect of the hard and serious work done with my Team I need to speak up.


Pretty strong words. Looks like this thing is going to really heat up.

You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.

#1940 harzak

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:26 PM

WOW! JuanK speaks out on the breakage issues for VSail:

http://www.vsail.inf...lvo-ocean-race/

I believe we are presented with an intentional manipulation of the truth.

There is a common, spread notion that ALL the participants of this VOR have structural problems, that the situation is unacceptable and that something needs to be done for the future. A fundamental distinction needs to be done between the mast breakages and the rest, and whilst I think it is very important to understand what caused so many mast failures, it is a travesty of the truth to put ALL designs in the same basket when it comes down to the "other" structural issues.


This generalization might suit a specific Team, or person to push any agenda he might have for the future, but out of respect of the hard and serious work done with my Team I need to speak up.


Pretty strong words. Looks like this thing is going to really heat up.

You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.


The statement is very interesting. A couple of more quotes:

In the first edition of the VO70s, we had 2 triumphs to celebrate that as designers we are very proud of. One is obviously that our design was driven to victory by a very good crew and the other one is that our 2 boats [both ABN AMRO] were the only ones that completed the full circumnavigation without major structural problems. This celebration was faded by the public generalization that because one boat sunk and others had structural failures, then ALL of the boats had problems and the rules had to be changed. Which in fact they did, for the worse!


It would be extremely interesting if Juan K were to make explicit what he thinks were for the worse in the new rules for the 2nd edition. Or is his views on this matter known?


So, while we focus in understanding why there have been so many problems with the rigs, I’d beg not to generalize and avoid putting in the same basket the good work and brilliance of some engineers with that of others which are clearly not the same.


I think his point is that the design offices that are lagging behind and has boats failing structurally, tries to catch up through rules changes rather than through better designs.

#1941 rule69

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:53 PM

^^^ Fascinating. His point about masts and hulls seems good. The argument that Tele didn't really break seems a little strained from what I've read, but he's in possession of details...

#1942 valor

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:30 PM

I find the comment on Tele's "strategic pit stop" to exploit a weather window the most interesting point!!

• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.

• Telefonica’s pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.



#1943 dlangpap

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:25 AM

I find the comment on Tele's "strategic pit stop" to exploit a weather window the most interesting point!!

• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.

Telefonica's pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.



Which, if true, would cast further doubt on the validity and fairness of pit stops. As discussed, it´s one thing to take shelter for good seamanship reasons when conditions are extreme and another to use land as a strategic element on a race that is supposed to be fought at sea. IMO most of us spectators want to see a boat race and a boat race should take place on the water.

#1944 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:34 AM

You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.


That's not a scoop, or a news story. That's a publicly released statement. Also known as a press release. You'd think that would be obvious from where it says so in the statement.

Oh well.

#1945 smackdaddy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:54 AM


You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.


That's not a scoop, or a news story. That's a publicly released statement. Also known as a press release. You'd think that would be obvious from where it says so in the statement.

Oh well.


The story is the scoop, bro. "Press release" or "statement" generated or not. It's a big story...even 7 hours later.

#1946 couchsurfer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:03 AM

.........You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.


....after the Ed's early commentary on -anything- Koumoujian,,I'm not surprised <_<

..I once asked JuanKalphabet for his comment on something for SA,,,
,,he responded,but only t'tell me not t'hold my breath! ;)

...it's been some years now,,,things change,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,at least the Ed's stopped kicking the Juankey

#1947 smackdaddy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:11 AM


.........You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.


....after the Ed's early commentary on -anything- Koumoujian,,I'm not surprised <_<

..I once asked JuanKalphabet for his comment on something for SA,,,
,,he responded,but only t'tell me not t'hold my breath! ;)

...it's been some years now,,,things change,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,at least the Ed's shut-up on the Juankey-bashing


Oh. I wasn't up on all that history.

I hadn't even heard of vsail until today. I suppose their FP got some seriously increased value today...even with a run of the mill press release. Heh-heh.

(PS - Not affiliated in any way with vsail. Just saw the story on Twitatious today and linked it here.)

#1948 couchsurfer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:21 AM



.........You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.


....after the Ed's early commentary on -anything- Koumoujian,,I'm not surprised <_<

..I once asked JuanKalphabet for his comment on something for SA,,,
,,he responded,but only t'tell me not t'hold my breath! ;)

...it's been some years now,,,things change,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,at least the Ed's shut-up on the Juankey-bashing


Oh. I wasn't up on all that history.

I hadn't even heard of vsail until today. I suppose their FP got some seriously increased value today...even with a run of the mill press release. Heh-heh.


...Vsail you say??...sounds worth checking out! ;)

#1949 clamslapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:48 AM

I find the comment on Tele's "strategic pit stop" to exploit a weather window the most interesting point!!

• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.

• Telefonica's pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.





This is the utterest bullshit. Tele did not camp out behind an island at Cape Horn to exploit a weather window. No way. Nyet. They need a win -- this race is getting much too close. Absolute horseshit to say that they exploited a weather window. They damaged their boat and they started slowing down a week before they stopped at Cape Horn.

Juan K is full of bullshit. Typical lying asshole.

#1950 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:03 AM


.........You'd think this kind of scoop would happen on SA. Oh well.


....after the Ed's early commentary on -anything- Koumoujian,,I'm not surprised <_<

..I once asked JuanKalphabet for his comment on something for SA,,,
,,he responded,but only t'tell me not t'hold my breath! ;)

...it's been some years now,,,things change,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,at least the Ed's stopped kicking the Juankey


Na, Juanker still hates us, though most of the guys in his office love us!

And yeah smack, I guess an open letter posted on a dozen websites is a scoop after all. You got me!

#1951 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:07 AM

I hadn't even heard of vsail until today.


That's because you are massively clueless.

Vsail is Pierre Orphanidis, and was called Valencia Sailing until the Cup went elsewhere. Pierre has been an SA'er since the beginning, and was GreenComm's press officer until they went away (might be back?) and is still a contributor here from time to time. He posts under valenciasailing.

I enjoy his site daily, have done for five years, and so should anyone interested in European grand prix racing or insider Cup stuff.

Pierre has broken a lot of stories in his day. His location gives him some nice advantages, and most of the insiders appreciate what he does.

#1952 Moonduster

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:14 AM

It's a shame we'll never know whether the Sanya rudder failure was the cause or the result of the hull cracking. Regardless, I'm thinking that we're unlikely to see an "old" boat ever compete in the VOR again.

Harzak,

I would guess that the Juan "for the worse" comments about changes to the V70 rule have to do with the increased panel weights below the water line. These essentially force the design to spread weight around evenly rather than having the freedom to put weight (strength) where the FEA and other analysis says it's needed most.

#1953 valor

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:30 AM


I find the comment on Tele's "strategic pit stop" to exploit a weather window the most interesting point!!

• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.

• Telefonica's pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.





This is the utterest bullshit. Tele did not camp out behind an island at Cape Horn to exploit a weather window. No way. Nyet. They need a win -- this race is getting much too close. Absolute horseshit to say that they exploited a weather window. They damaged their boat and they started slowing down a week before they stopped at Cape Horn.

Juan K is full of bullshit. Typical lying asshole.


"Utterest bullshit"? Telephonica's boat was designed by Juan K. Do you think he would be talking "bullshit" about a client of his? I think there is some validity to his comments.

#1954 clamslapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:37 AM



I find the comment on Tele's "strategic pit stop" to exploit a weather window the most interesting point!!

• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.

• Telefonica's pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.





This is the utterest bullshit. Tele did not camp out behind an island at Cape Horn to exploit a weather window. No way. Nyet. They need a win -- this race is getting much too close. Absolute horseshit to say that they exploited a weather window. They damaged their boat and they started slowing down a week before they stopped at Cape Horn.

Juan K is full of bullshit. Typical lying asshole.


"Utterest bullshit"? Telephonica's boat was designed by Juan K. Do you think he would be talking "bullshit" about a client of his? I think there is some validity to his comments.



No, there is no validity to these comments. It is a transparent attempt to deflect blame. Of course Tele was designed by him. He is trying to establish that the design was fine and in fact the boat was fully capable of reaching the finish line, and that the pit stop was simply a tactical ploy. That is why it is bullshit. That stop was no tactical ploy. And the boat failed -- there was by definition either a design flaw or an operating flaw.

#1955 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:55 AM

Or a construction flaw or a quality control or testing flaw or...

#1956 GBH

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:50 AM

In the first edition of the VO70s, we had 2 triumphs to celebrate that as designers we are very proud of. One is obviously that our design was driven to victory by a very good crew and the other one is that our 2 boats [both ABN AMRO] were the only ones that completed the full circumnavigation without major structural problems. This celebration was faded by the public generalization that because one boat sunk and others had structural failures, then ALL of the boats had problems and the rules had to be changed. Which in fact they did, for the worse!



oh dear - what a porky pie! Now what about ABN arriving in NZ with all its stringers flapping off inside the hull? That was kept pretty damn quiet, and then remember seeing them in Portsmouth with an awful lot of tenting and materials to hand!

#1957 harzak

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:16 AM




I find the comment on Tele's "strategic pit stop" to exploit a weather window the most interesting point!!

• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.

• Telefonica's pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.





This is the utterest bullshit. Tele did not camp out behind an island at Cape Horn to exploit a weather window. No way. Nyet. They need a win -- this race is getting much too close. Absolute horseshit to say that they exploited a weather window. They damaged their boat and they started slowing down a week before they stopped at Cape Horn.

Juan K is full of bullshit. Typical lying asshole.


"Utterest bullshit"? Telephonica's boat was designed by Juan K. Do you think he would be talking "bullshit" about a client of his? I think there is some validity to his comments.



No, there is no validity to these comments. It is a transparent attempt to deflect blame. Of course Tele was designed by him. He is trying to establish that the design was fine and in fact the boat was fully capable of reaching the finish line, and that the pit stop was simply a tactical ploy. That is why it is bullshit. That stop was no tactical ploy. And the boat failed -- there was by definition either a design flaw or an operating flaw.


1. What do you base your views on?
2. Are you affiliated with either Farr or the ETNZ designers?

Oh, and sorry for feeding you when you're in that mood :P

#1958 smackdaddy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:30 PM


I hadn't even heard of vsail until today.


That's because you are massively clueless.

Pierre has broken a lot of stories in his day. His location gives him some nice advantages, and most of the insiders appreciate what he does.


Maybe I am clueless. But you were too until I posted the link. And I don't even have a pink flag.

Look, as you say, he just broke a big story...and you still seem to be on the outside. I simply made the comment above that you'd think SA would be in the middle of something like this. It's not. Fair enough. I now know more of the backstory that explains why. That doesn't make what I said wrong.

#1959 harzak

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:42 PM

Look, as you say, he just broke a big story...and you still seem to be on the outside. I simply made the comment above that you'd think SA would be in the middle of something like this. It's not. Fair enough. I now know more of the backstory that explains why. That doesn't make what I said wrong.

Rings a bell but completely forgotten. Link or explanation?

#1960 smackdaddy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:49 PM


Look, as you say, he just broke a big story...and you still seem to be on the outside. I simply made the comment above that you'd think SA would be in the middle of something like this. It's not. Fair enough. I now know more of the backstory that explains why. That doesn't make what I said wrong.

Rings a bell but completely forgotten. Link or explanation?


I'm just going by this:

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=132619&view=findpost&p=3669033

Sounds like the same ol'.

#1961 clamslapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:09 PM





I find the comment on Tele's "strategic pit stop" to exploit a weather window the most interesting point!!

• Telefonica finished 2nd in leg 5 with a hull delamination in port mid bow which did not prevent her from racing.

• Telefonica's pit stop in Cape Horn was not a necessity but rather a very clever strategical decision based on having 3rd place assured and a weather window to exploit.





This is the utterest bullshit. Tele did not camp out behind an island at Cape Horn to exploit a weather window. No way. Nyet. They need a win -- this race is getting much too close. Absolute horseshit to say that they exploited a weather window. They damaged their boat and they started slowing down a week before they stopped at Cape Horn.

Juan K is full of bullshit. Typical lying asshole.


"Utterest bullshit"? Telephonica's boat was designed by Juan K. Do you think he would be talking "bullshit" about a client of his? I think there is some validity to his comments.



No, there is no validity to these comments. It is a transparent attempt to deflect blame. Of course Tele was designed by him. He is trying to establish that the design was fine and in fact the boat was fully capable of reaching the finish line, and that the pit stop was simply a tactical ploy. That is why it is bullshit. That stop was no tactical ploy. And the boat failed -- there was by definition either a design flaw or an operating flaw.


1. What do you base your views on?
2. Are you affiliated with either Farr or the ETNZ designers?

Oh, and sorry for feeding you when you're in that mood :P



Not at all affiliated with Farr or ETNZ -- you give me far, far too much credit. I'm just applying common sense. Tele started slowing to protect the boat many days before the pit stop. It is simply nonsensical to assert that the whole thing was some brilliant meteorological ploy that they devised starting halfway to Cape Horn. The boat broke, and they needed to repair it as a matter of reasonably seamanship -- period!!!

#1962 Heriberto

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:35 PM

Let the bus under-throwing continue!

I really don't know what JK thinks he has to complain about. If anybody was excused for sending off something like that it would have been Botin. Dalton completely threw him under the bus for "Clifford" then his team proceeds to break the boat that Nico said was built stronger than the rest just for this hard stuff. Yeah, they were leading, until they figured out just how far you could push the design and construction. Or got unlucky, there is that too.

What really gets me is the ridiculous logic JK uses, he starts out saying any boat can be broken, it is up to the crew. Then he talks about how other designers weren't as careful or brilliant, and his boats don't have any serious problems.

Well which is it?

He was in the perfect position to keep his mouth shut, but failed to take that opportunity.

#1963 couchsurfer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:46 PM

He was in the perfect position to keep his mouth shut, but failed to take that opportunity.


...yeh,,as much as I've been a fan over the years,,I'd have t'say you're right...
...tho I have mixed feelings how Tele's delam in the southern ocean -could- be considered 'minor' in the overall circumstance :unsure:

#1964 smackdaddy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:03 PM

Here is JK's opening salvo again...

With our 3 boats safely in Brazil and under the risk of sounding arrogant, I'll break away from my golden rule of not speaking until the end of the race to put the record straight since I believe we are presented with an intentional manipulation of the truth.

There is a common, spread notion that ALL the participants of this VOR have structural problems, that the situation is unacceptable and that something needs to be done for the future. A fundamental distinction needs to be done between the mast breakages and the rest, and whilst I think it is very important to understand what caused so many mast failures, it is a travesty of the truth to put ALL designs in the same basket when it comes down to the "other" structural issues.

This generalization might suit a specific Team, or person to push any agenda he might have for the future, but out of respect of the hard and serious work done with my Team I need to speak up.


This is really the heart of the matter. He's responding to someone he views as influential going public with misinformation in order to either make themselves look better - or bring down everyone else in order to gain an advantage. The question is...who is this? Dalts? Others? These facts, who it is and what exactly they're saying publicly and behind-the-scenes, along with Knut's public acknowledgement of the VOR's worries over this fiasco, are what make this a real story. Something big is going on.

As for the Tele thing - yeah, it's a stretch. Of course, they did make up hundreds of miles on Puma and damn near won the leg at the line - so it's not as far-fetched as some might want to think.

#1965 clamslapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:16 PM

Let the bus under-throwing continue!

I really don't know what JK thinks he has to complain about. If anybody was excused for sending off something like that it would have been Botin. Dalton completely threw him under the bus for "Clifford" then his team proceeds to break the boat that Nico said was built stronger than the rest just for this hard stuff. Yeah, they were leading, until they figured out just how far you could push the design and construction. Or got unlucky, there is that too.

What really gets me is the ridiculous logic JK uses, he starts out saying any boat can be broken, it is up to the crew. Then he talks about how other designers weren't as careful or brilliant, and his boats don't have any serious problems.

Well which is it?

He was in the perfect position to keep his mouth shut, but failed to take that opportunity.




Totally agree. I wish I was as articulate as you, because you're right on the money. I am pretty incredulous at JuanK's comments. Sometimes when people open their mouths your respect for them just plummets.

#1966 s2 alter ego

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:34 PM

As for the Tele thing - yeah, it's a stretch. Of course, they did make up hundreds of miles on Puma and damn near won the leg at the line - so it's not as far-fetched as some might want to think.

Tele had a choice of going into puerto montt, or fixing it at where they did, or going to falklands to fix it. They chose the best place based on time to finish according to their weather routing rather than going to the place which allowed the least loads to the damaged structures ( puerto montt )
If the damage had been more serious they would had no chose but to go to puerto montt like Camper and Abu did.

Seems to me JK is just saying all that using words most here don't accept.

#1967 couchsurfer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:43 PM


As for the Tele thing - yeah, it's a stretch. Of course, they did make up hundreds of miles on Puma and damn near won the leg at the line - so it's not as far-fetched as some might want to think.

Tele had a choice of going into puerto montt, or fixing it at where they did, or going to falklands to fix it. They chose the best place based on time to finish according to their weather routing rather than going to the place which allowed the least loads to the damaged structures ( puerto montt )
If the damage had been more serious they would had no chose but to go to puerto montt like Camper and Abu did.

Seems to me JK is just saying all that using words most here don't accept.


yeh,what 'Alter' said
..I bet JK's wishing he had passed the letter around the office before he hit 'send' :rolleyes:

#1968 s2 alter ego

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 04:52 PM

No, there is no validity to these comments. It is a transparent attempt to deflect blame. Of course Tele was designed by him. He is trying to establish that the design was fine

I'm not too sure JK could have done any beter job given the VO70 rules as they are. Any stronger would have been heavier and possible requiring a lighter bulb to keep total weight within rule limits. Less rightingmoment would have meant being slower and hence uncompetitive in this race under current rules allowing fixing boats between and during legs.

and in fact the boat was fully capable of reaching the finish line,

Which is possibly true if tele had slowed down enough. Would have resulted 3rd place instead of 2nd.

and that the pit stop was simply a tactical ploy. That is why it is bullshit. That stop was no tactical ploy.

Pit stop at that particular location was a tactical choice made, they could have decided to sail to puerto montt after damage occured. That at least is a fact, not just speculation.

And the boat failed -- there was by definition either a design flaw or an operating flaw.

You can call it operating flaw.
If sailing crew push it too far, the boat is going to break, that has been a known fact for years in this class. If they don't push it enough, they finish behind all who don't repair their boats during the leg. That is not a winning tactic in this race under current rules and all teams knew that beforehand.

I would call the result as taking a calculated risk rather than any flaw.
Vor has been about that for decades, not just about who can sail the boat fastest.

#1969 dlangpap

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:35 PM

By the way, is anyone following Camper's delivery to Itajai? Or the track and live videos from the ship that's transporting Abu Dhabi? Anyone checking if Sanya made it to Miami already? ...

#1970 valor

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:32 PM

hysterical Puma video...



#1971 smackdaddy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:55 PM

Knut talking about the whale threesome...classic.

#1972 STYACHT

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:02 PM

hysterical Puma video...

That was worth a laugh or three.

#1973 PonderousPelican

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:33 PM


hysterical Puma video...

That was worth a laugh or three.


See, all that talk about laminates and shear was nonsense. Puma didn't break because of the squid!

#1974 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

hysterical Puma video...



Hahaha “yeah the boat could be eaten…that’d be a disappointment”

Hahahaha

That one and some of Casey Smiths are just great

#1975 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:26 PM



hysterical Puma video...

That was worth a laugh or three.


See, all that talk about laminates and shear was nonsense. Puma didn't break because of the squid!


you mean the Octopussy dont you? haha

#1976 gybe-ho!

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:59 PM

By the way, is anyone following Camper's delivery to Itajai? Or the track and live videos from the ship that's transporting Abu Dhabi? Anyone checking if Sanya made it to Miami already? ...


At the chance of sounding condescending, how about checking the Volvo website...or Sail-world.com or any other number of sites rather than waiting to be spoon fed news?

#1977 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:32 AM

Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.

#1978 Stringbean

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:32 AM

Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.


Abu Dhabi's Facebook posted yesterday, "Azzam is on her way to Itajai and we should be ready for the in-port in 10 days time! Go Azzam!"

I'd trust that more then some random scuttlebutt tweet but who knows.

#1979 Indio

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:58 AM

Anyone know the name of the ship carting Azzam to Brazil? Or the one carting Sanya to Miami for that matter?

#1980 smackdaddy

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:03 AM

Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.


Could they have repaired the boat in PM? I didn't see much detail on their options...just that they'd decided to ship.

#1981 onimod

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:19 AM



Back to the racing...
I'm quite surprised by the speed that Groupama is making up the coast.
It looks to me that they'll have pretty favourable weather all the way and plenty of time to get thee boat ready after that.
Does anyone know anything about the replacement mast?
Is it the same technology as the one that broke or will they be at a relative disadvantage for the remainder of the race?



They broke their mast in two at the first spreaders. So they've "recycled" the upper part of the mast and stood it on the deck. They now have a boat which is underpowered so as long as it is windy, it's not too bad.


Sorry if I wasn't clear Panoramix - I was talking about the replacement full size mast being shipped from France.


Some information on the replacement mast.
As I suspected it's not quite the same as the first. I'd love to know exactly what is different and how it might affect performance.

Groupama shore manager Ben Wright said his next priority was to start work on their replacement mast which arrived at the team base late on Thursday after being flown from the Netherlands by official race logistics partner DHL.

Wright said he was confident the operation to fit out the new spar would be completed in the next couple of days despite requiring some painstaking work.

"It is a first generation mast but there are not many differences," he said. "We need to go through the process of putting it all together and checking everything over.

"There is a lot of work and a lot of details which just soak up time so it will take a couple of days, but we have that time before the boat goes in the water so there is no rush or panic on it."



#1982 couchsurfer

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:03 AM

hysterical Puma video...



....funny,,,and amazing tech details on the graphics -paint-(!!!)job :blink:

#1983 STYACHT

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:27 AM


Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.


Could they have repaired the boat in PM? I didn't see much detail on their options...just that they'd decided to ship.


Smack,
it is time they needed. The repair like this one on ADOR is best done building a new piece of hull shell in the original moulds, or a new mould. They will (like E3 last race) do this work in Italy at Persico and ship the replacement part to the boat. The alternative was to build a tool (like Sanya Lan this race) in Chile. The repair of Camper appears to be flat panel structure inside the boat that was rebuilt, not any hull shell replacement.

Shipping was the best option to get to a boat yard and build the repair part at the same time. They should have 2 days to fit the part (or so it read on VOR site). Tight timetable.

#1984 Who's your daddy

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:04 AM



Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.


Could they have repaired the boat in PM? I didn't see much detail on their options...just that they'd decided to ship.


Smack,
it is time they needed. The repair like this one on ADOR is best done building a new piece of hull shell in the original moulds, or a new mould. They will (like E3 last race) do this work in Italy at Persico and ship the replacement part to the boat. The alternative was to build a tool (like Sanya Lan this race) in Chile. The repair of Camper appears to be flat panel structure inside the boat that was rebuilt, not any hull shell replacement.

Shipping was the best option to get to a boat yard and build the repair part at the same time. They should have 2 days to fit the part (or so it read on VOR site). Tight timetable.


I suspect they will brace up the outerskin, remove the inner skin and core in the area. vac the core down then inner skin. They don't have time to do anything else, and there is no reason it won't be strong enough if done right. Not a lot of extra weight either, just the extra core density, whcih shouldn't be a great deal.

#1985 umpire

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 08:28 AM

Anyone know the name of the ship carting Azzam to Brazil? Or the one carting Sanya to Miami for that matter?



Sanya is aboard Maersk Bratan

#1986 mario147

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:53 AM

Any news on the jury investigation for Tele?

#1987 harzak

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

Tracker wind forecast looking good for Camper, favourable wind direction from 18 hours and to 72 hours.

#1988 STYACHT

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 12:50 PM




Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.


Could they have repaired the boat in PM? I didn't see much detail on their options...just that they'd decided to ship.


Smack,
it is time they needed. The repair like this one on ADOR is best done building a new piece of hull shell in the original moulds, or a new mould. They will (like E3 last race) do this work in Italy at Persico and ship the replacement part to the boat. The alternative was to build a tool (like Sanya Lan this race) in Chile. The repair of Camper appears to be flat panel structure inside the boat that was rebuilt, not any hull shell replacement.

Shipping was the best option to get to a boat yard and build the repair part at the same time. They should have 2 days to fit the part (or so it read on VOR site). Tight timetable.


I suspect they will brace up the outerskin, remove the inner skin and core in the area. vac the core down then inner skin. They don't have time to do anything else, and there is no reason it won't be strong enough if done right. Not a lot of extra weight either, just the extra core density, whcih shouldn't be a great deal.


That'd work, but the area is pretty large, judging by the porcupine they made. I think they could splice in a moulded part in the same time frame, as the shape will match well. It will be interesting to find out which way they fix it. ( Maybe a frame insertion to break up the panel too.)

#1989 tomtom

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:39 PM


Anyone know the name of the ship carting Azzam to Brazil? Or the one carting Sanya to Miami for that matter?



Sanya is aboard Maersk Bratan


I think Azzam is on a boat called "Onexia Princess" or something from Manila. It is hard to exactly make out the name on this photobut it looks like it has the cranes ready to lift it onboard, so that should be the right one:
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/photo_gallery/119_Latest.html#460

I have tried to find it, but no luck so far.

#1990 smackdaddy

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:41 PM





Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.


Could they have repaired the boat in PM? I didn't see much detail on their options...just that they'd decided to ship.


Smack,
it is time they needed. The repair like this one on ADOR is best done building a new piece of hull shell in the original moulds, or a new mould. They will (like E3 last race) do this work in Italy at Persico and ship the replacement part to the boat. The alternative was to build a tool (like Sanya Lan this race) in Chile. The repair of Camper appears to be flat panel structure inside the boat that was rebuilt, not any hull shell replacement.

Shipping was the best option to get to a boat yard and build the repair part at the same time. They should have 2 days to fit the part (or so it read on VOR site). Tight timetable.


I suspect they will brace up the outerskin, remove the inner skin and core in the area. vac the core down then inner skin. They don't have time to do anything else, and there is no reason it won't be strong enough if done right. Not a lot of extra weight either, just the extra core density, whcih shouldn't be a great deal.


That'd work, but the area is pretty large, judging by the porcupine they made. I think they could splice in a moulded part in the same time frame, as the shape will match well. It will be interesting to find out which way they fix it. ( Maybe a frame insertion to break up the panel too.)


Cool. Thanks for the info fellas.

It really amazes me how quickly they fix these boats. I had no idea such major work could be done in a matter of days.

#1991 tomtom

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:45 PM



Anyone know the name of the ship carting Azzam to Brazil? Or the one carting Sanya to Miami for that matter?



Sanya is aboard Maersk Bratan


I think Azzam is on a boat called "Onexia Princess" or something from Manila. It is hard to exactly make out the name on this photobut it looks like it has the cranes ready to lift it onboard, so that should be the right one:
http://www.volvoocea...Latest.html#460

I have tried to find it, but no luck so far.


correction, I think it is "Oneida Princess"
http://e-ships.net/ships.htm
Not found on AIS so far

#1992 tomtom

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 01:57 PM




Anyone know the name of the ship carting Azzam to Brazil? Or the one carting Sanya to Miami for that matter?



Sanya is aboard Maersk Bratan


I think Azzam is on a boat called "Onexia Princess" or something from Manila. It is hard to exactly make out the name on this photobut it looks like it has the cranes ready to lift it onboard, so that should be the right one:
http://www.volvoocea...Latest.html#460

I have tried to find it, but no luck so far.


correction, I think it is "Oneida Princess"
http://e-ships.net/ships.htm
Not found on AIS so far

Last seen on 31 Jan in Oman.... :-( and we now she was in Puerto Mont not too long ago
IMO 9177480

http://www.shiptracking.eu/ais/#/getvesseldetails?mmsi=548780000

#1993 smackdaddy

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:24 PM

Great article:
http://www.volvoocea...-attrition.html



Leg 5 from Auckland to Itajaí saw the highest attrition rate on the fleet to date, with just one boat making it all the way without stopping, one of the three finishers so far coming home under a jury rig, two others loaded on cargo ships and one still to finish.

The problems sparked comment and speculation in the world's sailing media and across online forums over the designs and building of the boats, the route of the race, the style of racing, the ice exclusion zone and even the time of year the leg was sailed.


Team Telefónica skipper Iker Martínez: "The best way to win this race is to have a very fast boat and stop it when it needs to be stopped," he added. "That is the type of boat that we have, we compete with it, and we have to take all of that into account and that's that."


Thanks for listening VOR. You guys are solid.

#1994 valor

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:28 PM





Saw a tweet from Scuttlebut that says either Abu Dhabi wil not make it to Itajal or, at least not in time to be repaired.

Sanya said on facebook that they will be meeting the boat around the 27th April and getting it all sorted from there.

Camper will be pleased they took the course of action they did - the alternatives are horrendous.

Ian Walker must be pissed beyond words with their fate.


Could they have repaired the boat in PM? I didn't see much detail on their options...just that they'd decided to ship.


Smack,
it is time they needed. The repair like this one on ADOR is best done building a new piece of hull shell in the original moulds, or a new mould. They will (like E3 last race) do this work in Italy at Persico and ship the replacement part to the boat. The alternative was to build a tool (like Sanya Lan this race) in Chile. The repair of Camper appears to be flat panel structure inside the boat that was rebuilt, not any hull shell replacement.

Shipping was the best option to get to a boat yard and build the repair part at the same time. They should have 2 days to fit the part (or so it read on VOR site). Tight timetable.


I suspect they will brace up the outerskin, remove the inner skin and core in the area. vac the core down then inner skin. They don't have time to do anything else, and there is no reason it won't be strong enough if done right. Not a lot of extra weight either, just the extra core density, whcih shouldn't be a great deal.


That'd work, but the area is pretty large, judging by the porcupine they made. I think they could splice in a moulded part in the same time frame, as the shape will match well. It will be interesting to find out which way they fix it. ( Maybe a frame insertion to break up the panel too.)


from a Volvo site article on April 10th...

“We have two shore crew guys on board, Sam Bourne and Tim Collen, who will doing as much work on board as possible with the limited tools they were able to take,” he said.

“Their job will be to do as much preparation as possible for the repair and get a head start on the general stopover maintenance.”

The main work will be carried out once the ship arrives in Brazil and the Emirati team estimate it will take around 72 hours to complete the repairs, which will include replacing an area of core foam on both sides of the boat and get her ready to race again.

The team say they will need to chop out 4m x 1m sections on each side of the boat, which will be replaced by new core foam pieces, which have been pre-shaped in the Persico facility in Italy where Azzam was built.

Despite the scale of the task ahead of them the team say they are confident they will be able to nurse Azzam back to full competitiveness for the Itajaí In-Port Race on April 21 and the four remaining legs of the race.

#1995 dlangpap

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 03:50 PM


By the way, is anyone following Camper's delivery to Itajai? Or the track and live videos from the ship that's transporting Abu Dhabi? Anyone checking if Sanya made it to Miami already? ...


At the chance of sounding condescending, how about checking the Volvo website...or Sail-world.com or any other number of sites rather than waiting to be spoon fed news?


Also at the risk of sounding condescending, and speaking about spoon-feeding, please refer to the following link> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

Cheers.

#1996 valor

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 04:28 PM

Any news on the jury investigation for Tele?


Ken Read's explanation as told to Sailing World today...

Posted Image April 12, 2012
Sail-Gate: Telefonica's Pending Case
When PUMA Ocean Racing's Ken Read visited the Sailing World offices after finishing the Volvo Ocean Race's Leg 5, we pressed him on what he knew of impending jury hearing involving race leader Telefonica and accusations of carrying one too many sails during Leg 4.

by Dave Reed related tags: Volvo Ocean Race Posted Image © IAN ROMAN/Volvo Ocean Race The orange storm staysail flown by Telefonica is a more of multi-purpose sail than a traditional high-clewed storm sail. Race rules allow only one storm sail onboard during a leg, and according PUMA Ocean Racing's Ken Read, Telefonica may have had both sails onboard during Leg 4, which would be grounds for disqualification. Enlarge Photo According to race officials, a jury hearing will be held during the Itajai stopover this month. At issue is a claim that Team Telefonica sailed Leg 4 (and possibly others) with an extra sail. Here’s what Read had to say about it.

We don’t’ really know much about it, to be honest. I’ve been beating around the bushes and we’ve been told by several sources that there was an unstamped sail onboard. If it is what we think it is, it was an extra storm jib.

On the outside that doesn’t’ sound like a big deal, but the storm jib has actually turned into a pretty unique sail in the inventory. We, and everyone else, have two storm jibs with two very different profiles. There are four tack locations on the foredeck, and on the aft-most tack we fly a storm jib staysail that’s actually a square-headed sail. It’s a really funky staysail that we have up all the time when we bring it—we literally put it up at the beginning of the leg and take it down at the end. It really helps attach the breeze to the back of the mainsail.

We think it’s a couple tenths-of-knot [of boatspeed] or more in some conditions. So a lot of the time you might end up triple-headed. You can use it as a changing sail, too. It really makes a difference. So this storm jib staysail is a pretty important sail. But you can only carry one storm jib onboard. Our other staysail is your traditional high-clew sail that’s just a survival sail. In this leg [Leg 5] and the one before [Leg 4], it was predicted to be bad weather so we took the storm jib not the storm jib staysail.

I would have loved to take it. They supposedly took both, and that sucks. If the rumors are correct, and they had both, first of all, it’s an advantage, and secondly, they sailed the leg illegally, so something will have to be done.



#1997 smackdaddy

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:58 PM

Thanks for the link val. While I was over there, I found another interview with KR regarding the 3Di sails. Great stuff:

http://www.sailingwo...g/built-to-last

#1998 STYACHT

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:43 PM


Any news on the jury investigation for Tele?


Ken Read's explanation as told to Sailing World today...

Posted Image April 12, 2012
Sail-Gate: Telefonica's Pending Case
When PUMA Ocean Racing's Ken Read visited the Sailing World offices after finishing the Volvo Ocean Race's Leg 5, we pressed him on what he knew of impending jury hearing involving race leader Telefonica and accusations of carrying one too many sails during Leg 4.

by Dave Reed related tags: Volvo Ocean Race Posted Image © IAN ROMAN/Volvo Ocean Race The orange storm staysail flown by Telefonica is a more of multi-purpose sail than a traditional high-clewed storm sail. Race rules allow only one storm sail onboard during a leg, and according PUMA Ocean Racing's Ken Read, Telefonica may have had both sails onboard during Leg 4, which would be grounds for disqualification. Enlarge Photo According to race officials, a jury hearing will be held during the Itajai stopover this month. At issue is a claim that Team Telefonica sailed Leg 4 (and possibly others) with an extra sail. Here’s what Read had to say about it.

We don’t’ really know much about it, to be honest. I’ve been beating around the bushes and we’ve been told by several sources that there was an unstamped sail onboard. If it is what we think it is, it was an extra storm jib.

On the outside that doesn’t’ sound like a big deal, but the storm jib has actually turned into a pretty unique sail in the inventory. We, and everyone else, have two storm jibs with two very different profiles. There are four tack locations on the foredeck, and on the aft-most tack we fly a storm jib staysail that’s actually a square-headed sail. It’s a really funky staysail that we have up all the time when we bring it—we literally put it up at the beginning of the leg and take it down at the end. It really helps attach the breeze to the back of the mainsail.

We think it’s a couple tenths-of-knot [of boatspeed] or more in some conditions. So a lot of the time you might end up triple-headed. You can use it as a changing sail, too. It really makes a difference. So this storm jib staysail is a pretty important sail. But you can only carry one storm jib onboard. Our other staysail is your traditional high-clew sail that’s just a survival sail. In this leg [Leg 5] and the one before [Leg 4], it was predicted to be bad weather so we took the storm jib not the storm jib staysail.

I would have loved to take it. They supposedly took both, and that sucks. If the rumors are correct, and they had both, first of all, it’s an advantage, and secondly, they sailed the leg illegally, so something will have to be done.


Based on what I have heard from teams, Ken is being pretty coy here. If I have good sources, there is not the mystery that Ken alludes to. In truth, he should just hold his tongue, though I am sure after AIS gate and now this he is steamed at the race leader.

Coming back to the core replacement situation on ADOR, you have to distinguish between forming the core (it is aramid and does not like to bend) with heat on the boat mould and creating a cured part for scarfing into the boat. It sounds to me from that VO site link that they will do the job from the inside as WYD said. In retrospect, I remember hearing Wade Morgan say that in a video, so it was clear all along. But, they still need the time to get the core, shape the core, etc. It is still the reason they could not do the job in Chile. And it is clear they will upgrade the core density, probably from 72 to 96 N636 honeycomb, on both sides.

In other news, here is why VOR would be jumping on the multi train without second thoughts at least:link to capsize Or you could go back to the Oman Sail 100 and look what structural damage on a multi often looks like.

<edit> There was an open letter published recently. Did it mention the rudder design and engineering from the ex Telefonica Blue? http://www.thedailysail.com/node/61718 I do not know who did that job for sure, but I have my ideas.

#1999 sclero

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:59 PM

Based on what I have heard from teams, Ken is being pretty coy here. If I have good sources, there is not the mystery that Ken alludes to. In truth, he should just hold his tongue, though I am sure after AIS gate and now this he is steamed at the race leader.

Coming back to the core replacement situation on ADOR, you have to distinguish between forming the core (it is aramid and does not like to bend) with heat on the boat mould and creating a cured part for scarfing into the boat. It sounds to me from that VO site link that they will do the job from the inside as WYD said. In retrospect, I remember hearing Wade Morgan say that in a video, so it was clear all along. But, they still need the time to get the core, shape the core, etc. It is still the reason they could not do the job in Chile. And it is clear they will upgrade the core density, probably from 72 to 96 N636 honeycomb, on both sides.

In other news, here is why VOR would be jumping on the multi train without second thoughts at least:link to capsize Or you could go back to the Oman Sail 100 and look what structural damage on a multi often looks like.

<edit> There was an open letter published recently. Did it mention the rudder design and engineering from the ex Telefonica Blue? http://www.thedailysail.com/node/61718 I do not know who did that job for sure, but I have my ideas.



What was the AIS gate you mentioned, I have a few guesses but couldn't find anything solid to back them up.

#2000 STYACHT

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:30 PM



Based on what I have heard from teams, Ken is being pretty coy here. If I have good sources, there is not the mystery that Ken alludes to. In truth, he should just hold his tongue, though I am sure after AIS gate and now this he is steamed at the race leader.

Coming back to the core replacement situation on ADOR, you have to distinguish between forming the core (it is aramid and does not like to bend) with heat on the boat mould and creating a cured part for scarfing into the boat. It sounds to me from that VO site link that they will do the job from the inside as WYD said. In retrospect, I remember hearing Wade Morgan say that in a video, so it was clear all along. But, they still need the time to get the core, shape the core, etc. It is still the reason they could not do the job in Chile. And it is clear they will upgrade the core density, probably from 72 to 96 N636 honeycomb, on both sides.

In other news, here is why VOR would be jumping on the multi train without second thoughts at least:link to capsize Or you could go back to the Oman Sail 100 and look what structural damage on a multi often looks like.

<edit> There was an open letter published recently. Did it mention the rudder design and engineering from the ex Telefonica Blue? http://www.thedailysail.com/node/61718 I do not know who did that job for sure, but I have my ideas.



What was the AIS gate you mentioned, I have a few guesses but couldn't find anything solid to back them up.

In the Malacca straights all boats were required to transmit their position, name, course, and speed. This for shipping safety. Apparently (of course I wasn't there) this data was not coming off Telefonica. I am sure that Race HQ called them on that, but it seems they stated it was a technical malfunction of some sort. A convenient one if you are racing. If you watch the leg 3 full video, ca. 45 min, you will see them talk about this.




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