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VOR Leg 5


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#801 CrushDigital

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:15 AM

Dear Harzak,


I think I made it clear that I was saying the ability to navigate a boat through rough seas is not some particularly French trait as some posters made it seem.

What's more I didn't even mention their media presence during the race, which I thought has been fantastic, and very entertaining. They've been on the ball about keeping fans updated since they first picked up one of the Ericsson boats a couple of years ago.

All you've done is take a sentence out of context which is pretty terrible form if you ask me. Later in the same post I said the Groupama guys, of which half are French (amazing the way fractions work), have sailed "masterfully" this leg. Come on, all you had to do was read two more sentences. I imagine that could be stressful but the payoff can sometimes be pretty good. But you should continue to ignore both of these points as it's clear they get in the way of your oh so hysterically misguided post.

You should send that letter to VOR headquarters though, I think they could use a laugh.


Best Wishes,
CrushDigital

#802 wolverine

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:16 AM


I think it's hysterical the way everyone keeps on extolling the virtues of the French when currently only half the sailing crew onboard even is from the country.

What are you trying to say?

  • that we shouldn't cheer on any French
  • that we shouldn't praise any virtues of the French sailors in this race
  • but it's OK to praise non-French
  • that the French on G4 get too much attention

I agreee with all of the above, and propose that we all start emailing the VOR headquarters the following letter:

Dear VOR headquarters,

It's come to my attention that some Americans on Sailing Anarchy have started cheering on the French when currently only half the sailing crew onboard even is from the country.

It is also my understanding that some posters love that some French sailors share more interesting information in English than sailors on the other teams.

I've discussed the matter with CrushDigital, and agree with his proposal: the VOR Headquarters need to immediately effect a gag rule on all French sailors.



LOL...great idea!!!!! Lets also complain about all of the offshore races they sponsor like the Vendee Globe or the Transat its just not fair to the rest of the world's sailors.

#803 Terrafirma

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:19 AM

Guys, I think nowadays we refer to teams meaning the teams country of origin, not the sailors onboard. Like it or not the Americas Cup started this a while ago, most noticeably imo, Russell Coutts defecting to the Swiss team with his key members and winning the cup. With regards to the Volvo finding the calibre of sailors who are willing to do the race is a challenge. The early teams hand picked their crews from an elite bunch. Also relevant here is the fact we are talking about professional sailors who sail for a living, they chase the work wherever they can for whoever is paying. Perhaps one day we will have country against country but at the moment we are taking about a handful of teams brought about by where The Skipper, The Country and Sponsorship money originated from.

#804 harzak

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:44 AM

Groupama has gybed onto port tack whilst Puma is continuing south on stbd tack - should be interesting to see who deals best with the unusual light air patch ahead of them

Say they keep their speed (not unlikely judging by the tracker forecast), and that the forecast is right, they could end up with a split more or less like the attached image in 30 hours.

Groupama seems to run a much much lower risk of losing pressure, albeit at the cost of a worse angle to the horn. However, if Groupama sees that Pumas line pays early enough, they can gybe south and cover, much like their northern cover in leg 4.

Puma on the other hand, are again the risk-takers if they continue south IMHO. A bit less pressure most of the way, and also in need of a smaller timing window for it to pay off.

The next sched and updated weather forecast will be very interesting. This would be a great moment for Expedition to run a simulation.

Attached Files



#805 harzak

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:26 AM


Groupama has gybed onto port tack whilst Puma is continuing south on stbd tack - should be interesting to see who deals best with the unusual light air patch ahead of them

Say they keep their speed (not unlikely judging by the tracker forecast), and that the forecast is right, they could end up with a split more or less like the attached image in 30 hours.

Groupama seems to run a much much lower risk of losing pressure, albeit at the cost of a worse angle to the horn. However, if Groupama sees that Pumas line pays early enough, they can gybe south and cover, much like their northern cover in leg 4.

Puma on the other hand, are again the risk-takers if they continue south IMHO. A bit less pressure most of the way, and also in need of a smaller timing window for it to pay off.

The next sched and updated weather forecast will be very interesting. This would be a great moment for Expedition to run a simulation.

But in the new sched it looks like better pressure, and that they might not encounter the light until the rounding of the horn. Oh well, I bet the forecast will change a lot in the next 42 hrs. BTW, I'm a complete amateur at this, posting in hope of opinions from better educated people.

Attached Files



#806 Panoramix

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:32 AM

Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)

#807 Who's your daddy

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:58 AM

Let's stop all this talk of rescuing. None of the crews need rescuing. they are all getting themselves out of trouble, they don't need help. From the rules perspective that is the priority. From the teams perspective keeping racing is the priority. Some of them haven't managed that, but they are all safe and heading where they need to under their own steam.

#808 onimod

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:10 AM

The story out of Camper doesn't quite match up with the story out of ADOR who mentioned they're on standby for a pickup in their most recent boatfeed.
A day and a half till they have to make a decision (from the time the video was taken at which point ADOR was 610nm west of Campers position).
Fingers, toes and everything else crossed for them.

#809 MSafiri

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:40 AM

Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)


+ Groupama made a really good mix of talents, well, the other too, but somehow they made it on every level, my humble point of view.

Though if you watch the documentaires, it is hard not to become a KR fun! The 'show' he made with the peanut butter is a cool example.

#810 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:47 PM

The story out of Camper doesn't quite match up with the story out of ADOR who mentioned they're on standby for a pickup in their most recent boatfeed.
A day and a half till they have to make a decision (from the time the video was taken at which point ADOR was 610nm west of Campers position).
Fingers, toes and everything else crossed for them.


Great pickup. Almost sounds like the guys on camper are only a couple of wrong waves off needing to get off

A few clicks down, i came across this one

Day 10 report

Not only are have we finally joined the war in the Southern Ocean, but we just hit forty knots while surfing down wave. Finally! We’re into Azzam’s conditions – keep an eye on the scheds



#811 Potter

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:49 PM

Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)


+10

I wouls also add that I believe Telefonica are winning overall because Iker and Xavi are willing to learn from everyone all the time. They never believe they know it all and they take form different environments exactly what works for them.

#812 onimod

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:50 PM

A few clicks down, i came across this one

Day 10 report

Not only are have we finally joined the war in the Southern Ocean, but we just hit forty knots while surfing down wave. Finally! We're into Azzam's conditions – keep an eye on the scheds


40!!!
I want to see the scorch marks on the paint in Itaja.
http://new.livestrea...statuses/391650
Sounds like someone designed the boat for the conditions; lets hope it doesn't end in tears.

#813 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:51 PM


Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)


+ Groupama made a really good mix of talents, well, the other too, but somehow they made it on every level, my humble point of view.

Though if you watch the documentaires, it is hard not to become a KR fun! The 'show' he made with the peanut butter is a cool example.



Linky?

I agree, KR is a good person to have on the right end of the camera. Comes across as a humble bloke who wants to win.

#814 onimod

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 12:58 PM

Linky?

I agree, KR is a good person to have on the right end of the camera. Comes across as a humble bloke who wants to win.


Kenny's peanut butter + jelly:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/369170

#815 Riptide

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:24 PM

Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




#816 PonderousPelican

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

#817 MSafiri

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 01:36 PM



Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)


+ Groupama made a really good mix of talents, well, the other too, but somehow they made it on every level, my humble point of view.

Though if you watch the documentaires, it is hard not to become a KR fun! The 'show' he made with the peanut butter is a cool example.



Linky?

I agree, KR is a good person to have on the right end of the camera. Comes across as a humble bloke who wants to win.


A good overview ala Groupama, performed on stage by KR, that would be great. Or having a Volvo All Star boat, sailing wise it might be a complete fcukup, but show wise?????

#818 smackdaddy

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:12 PM

Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)


Great post. And a big +1 on your Puma point.

#819 rockshandy

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:22 PM




Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)


+ Groupama made a really good mix of talents, well, the other too, but somehow they made it on every level, my humble point of view.

Though if you watch the documentaires, it is hard not to become a KR fun! The 'show' he made with the peanut butter is a cool example.



Linky?

I agree, KR is a good person to have on the right end of the camera. Comes across as a humble bloke who wants to win.


A good overview ala Groupama, performed on stage by KR, that would be great. Or having a Volvo All Star boat, sailing wise it might be a complete fcukup, but show wise?????

yeah, but where will we get 11 magnus olssons?

#820 bombarie

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:27 PM

Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.


Interesting observation -- that it is the French way to prefer "thinking" over "speed matters only". Perhaps that is why a lot of us root for Groupama (and Kenny Read, of course, but that's obvious). For me, I appreciate a "cunning plan" much more than a 0.5 knot speed difference in a boat chase, especially if it is clear that such speed differential is due to faster design / better sails (in my mind, given the same tools, each of the VOR teams is equally fast). To date we have seen at least two instances of Cammas' cunning over speed pay of: (i) the dive south to duck the high pressure ridge on the way out from Capetown in Leg 2 and (ii) the trek northeast after Taiwan to catch up with Puma (where Camper lost the leg, basically). We also saw it not work -- his African adventure in Leg 1.

The other skipper mostly prefer to race each other in a pack across the ocean (with the exception of Ken Read in Leg 4 on the way to Tokyo). That's the sailing equivalent of catenaccio -- boring Italian defensive soccer games, where the key players are the leg-and-knee chopping defenders. To me, Cammas and his crew are the sailor equivalents of Henry and the greatest of all...Zidane (head butting an Italian catenaccio defender is a plus in my book of, admitting somewhat odd, rules). Like they, he seems to use his imagination when allowable.

#821 MSafiri

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:39 PM

[/quote]
yeah, but where will we get 11 magnus olssons?
[/quote]

You are right. He is an all time favourite. 'I just TALK, TALK, TALK'

#822 Merit 25

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 02:50 PM


Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

:lol: pretty much what I was thinking.

#823 Cyrille Hydrogene

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

I'm a bit late for that, but I noticed G4 has gybed before Puma. They must feel quite confident, and not just keeping an eye in the rearview mirror to cover Puma. This 2 boat race is going to be open and interesting till the end.

I'm a Groupama fan, but I love Ken Read's attitude and style, both in writing and on video. His Peanut butter video is a classic!

#824 JumpingJax

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

The other skipper mostly prefer to race each other in a pack across the ocean (with the exception of Ken Read in Leg 4 on the way to Tokyo). That's the sailing equivalent of catenaccio -- boring Italian defensive soccer games, where the key players are the leg-and-knee chopping defenders.


Real tight pack: one in NZ; one heading north to escape too much wind pressure and - hopefully - avoid a bigger disaster; one making best speed possible to port in Chile for repairs; and three actively racing smeared across a span of over 1,300 miles. I'd suggest the only leg-and-knee chopping this leg is in the planning stage for designers and builders.

Maybe hitting the corners on a flyer is a winning strategy in your fleet, but rarely so in this company. If the best of nav and wx strategies are evaluated the same by most or even all teams at this level, it can't be an enormous surprise. these guys aren't going to separate just because they don't have the boat speed to keep up with another guy. Suicide by goofiness has never been a consistent winner. Given the wx data and conditions these teams have to work with, there aren't that many differing routing strategies that make sense. They don't have many chances to choose between "staying out of the current" and "going out for more pressure" in the open ocean.

#825 Left Hook

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:10 PM



Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

:lol: pretty much what I was thinking.


And they'll have a selection process again where they claim to be picking the team based off of submitted resumes when in reality they pre-pick 10 people and select 2 from the 500 resumes they get.

#826 maritmesailski

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:17 PM


http://new.livestrea...ailingteam/leg5

Couple of pics from Puma under the Groupama livestream Posted Image


Just had a look at the videos . Why the fuck don´t they show these things on the VOR-site? It´s brilliant footage and you have to search half the net to get it. What do these VOR-people do. Hold the best footage back for themselves?
Same thing with the comments. You hear and see Camper, Camper and Camper again. Man, Camper is OUT of this leg. They don´t play any roll no more. Don´t they have someone around to translate Spanish and French. THERE is where the music is playing and especially with Puma. They send the best pics and the best comments. Without any doubt they are doing the best job seen from the sponsors point of view.


Completely agree, I have firefox load up all livestream pages, each in one tab. Only reason I go to volvo site is to see the distance / leaderboard. Volvo front page is becoming a bit like the SA front page for me. MUCH better stuff on the livestream sites, I question why they even make it so hard / counter intuitive to find them...

#827 Merit 25

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 04:21 PM

And they'll have a selection process again where they claim to be picking the team based off of submitted resumes when in reality they pre-pick 10 people and select 2 from the 500 resumes they get.


Did you go to Brown? Do you have a business degree? Are you white, male, and come from money? Then we want YOU! for the All American Offshore team!

I'm kidding, I'm kidding..... or am I??? :ph34r:

#828 gybe-ho!

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:10 PM




Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

:lol: pretty much what I was thinking.


And they'll have a selection process again where they claim to be picking the team based off of submitted resumes when in reality they pre-pick 10 people and select 2 from the 500 resumes they get.


Oooo, still stinging from not getting a call back last time? Get your ass away from the computer, spend time at NEB and the shipyard getting rides and working on your sailing, then apply Fella!

#829 Terrorvision

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:29 PM





Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

:lol: pretty much what I was thinking.


And they'll have a selection process again where they claim to be picking the team based off of submitted resumes when in reality they pre-pick 10 people and select 2 from the 500 resumes they get.


Oooo, still stinging from not getting a call back last time? Get your ass away from the computer, spend time at NEB and the shipyard getting rides and working on your sailing, then apply Fella!


Seriously though, an under-30 team doing a VOR?

I know lots of teams that were trying to get to the party this time round- all of them with very well proven crews and cash to buy the boat- just not to complete the race. Many of these guys have done a VOR before, sailed round the world.....you name it, and they still didn't get the cash to do the race. Look at the last edition with Team Russia- the guy that headed the campaign was fucking minted- I met him, I spent time with him, he is loaded- yet even he couldn't justify the cost of it.
The whole 'Morning Glory' concept is great- but let's face it, the US doesn't have game when it comes to yacht sponsorship for whatever reason. It is a shame because patriotism is king in the US and there is a long Q of very good sailors, ground crew, builders and managers to work on a VOR campaign, but an under-30 team of no-name jocks.....meh.

#830 Heriberto

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 06:20 PM

I know lots of teams that were trying to get to the party this time round- all of them with very well proven crews and cash to buy the boat- just not to complete the race. Many of these guys have done a VOR before, sailed round the world.....you name it, and they still didn't get the cash to do the race. Look at the last edition with Team Russia- the guy that headed the campaign was fucking minted- I met him, I spent time with him, he is loaded- yet even he couldn't justify the cost of it.
The whole 'Morning Glory' concept is great- but let's face it, the US doesn't have game when it comes to yacht sponsorship for whatever reason. It is a shame because patriotism is king in the US and there is a long Q of very good sailors, ground crew, builders and managers to work on a VOR campaign, but an under-30 team of no-name jocks.....meh.



How much does the whole race program cost?

You are right about this. I really don't understand why international US companies that want to expand their brand overseas have no interest in events like these. Two in my backyard come to mind, 3M and Target. I mean, Target doesn't have as much ad money as Camper? Not that we want to red boats....

It makes a lot of sense to stop in China, and I'm surprised that given the expansion of the Indian economy and interest (especially by retail companies) to expand there that it hasn't been added as a stop.

#831 Left Hook

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 06:23 PM





Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

:lol: pretty much what I was thinking.


And they'll have a selection process again where they claim to be picking the team based off of submitted resumes when in reality they pre-pick 10 people and select 2 from the 500 resumes they get.


Oooo, still stinging from not getting a call back last time? Get your ass away from the computer, spend time at NEB and the shipyard getting rides and working on your sailing, then apply Fella!


Check your PMs mate, just wanted to set a few facts straight.

#832 Heriberto

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 06:35 PM


Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.


Giving a 24 year old a Ferrari is not advisible. Maybe a sparkle pony instead.

#833 PonderousPelican

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 06:37 PM



Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.


Giving a 24 year old a Ferrari is not advisible. Maybe a sparkle pony instead.


OK then, I need two, and then some.

#834 JumpingJax

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

As I read the wx overlay on the tracker, the low at 47S,106W is potential trouble for the three racing:

G4 and Puma are likely to get hammered from the NW as they approach the horn as the low gets squeezed along the western slope of the Andes. Has the potential to be the roughest ride yet. Hope not. I've seen enough photos of 10m waves.

As the low gets stronger, it may well accelerate and ADOR could fall back to the high ridge to their south (which is drifting NE to pretty much intercept their course) and then into the next system to their west. It would be sad if they drop back from their current postion to another whole weather system behind the leaders. Keep it cranked up, guys!

The approach to the coast doesn't look too gentle for Camper and Telefonica, either.

Nasty place to sail. But ... it could get worse. And probably will! I hope to be wrong about the behavior of that low. We live in hope.

#835 Riptide

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:34 PM




Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

:lol: pretty much what I was thinking.


And they'll have a selection process again where they claim to be picking the team based off of submitted resumes when in reality they pre-pick 10 people and select 2 from the 500 resumes they get.


Pretty much how I bet it will go down, just use the same leaders of morning light and pick a couple of new people that can commit to the race lol

#836 Riptide

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:38 PM





Whoever mentioned what teams will be partaking in the 2014-2015 edition of the race I know of one new team that is trying to get into the party. The All American Offshore Team is looking to put together an all under 30 crew and are currently seeking sponsorship for the race.

http://www.allamericanoceanracing.org/




And I want a Ferrari.

:lol: pretty much what I was thinking.


And they'll have a selection process again where they claim to be picking the team based off of submitted resumes when in reality they pre-pick 10 people and select 2 from the 500 resumes they get.


Oooo, still stinging from not getting a call back last time? Get your ass away from the computer, spend time at NEB and the shipyard getting rides and working on your sailing, then apply Fella!


No actually I was just stating that they are planning on doing a team in the next edition of the race that's assuming they can find sponsorship.

#837 edelweis

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 08:11 PM

G4 and Puma are likely to get hammered from the NW as they approach the horn as the low gets squeezed along the western slope of the Andes. Has the potential to be the roughest ride yet.

To me it seems they make it to the horn before the front. No big waves either...

#838 dlangpap

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:43 PM


I know lots of teams that were trying to get to the party this time round- all of them with very well proven crews and cash to buy the boat- just not to complete the race. Many of these guys have done a VOR before, sailed round the world.....you name it, and they still didn't get the cash to do the race. Look at the last edition with Team Russia- the guy that headed the campaign was fucking minted- I met him, I spent time with him, he is loaded- yet even he couldn't justify the cost of it.
The whole 'Morning Glory' concept is great- but let's face it, the US doesn't have game when it comes to yacht sponsorship for whatever reason. It is a shame because patriotism is king in the US and there is a long Q of very good sailors, ground crew, builders and managers to work on a VOR campaign, but an under-30 team of no-name jocks.....meh.



How much does the whole race program cost?

You are right about this. I really don't understand why international US companies that want to expand their brand overseas have no interest in events like these. Two in my backyard come to mind, 3M and Target. I mean, Target doesn't have as much ad money as Camper? Not that we want to red boats....

It makes a lot of sense to stop in China, and I'm surprised that given the expansion of the Indian economy and interest (especially by retail companies) to expand there that it hasn't been added as a stop.


Don´t worry, Larry Ellison will eventually get interested and then buy his way to a Volvo victory. He´ll then re-design the rules to his liking, make big $$$ offers to the best skippers around that they can´t say no to and will probably be choppered to skipper his boat at the end of the most difficult leg...

#839 IBro

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:04 PM

Hmmm "The latest estimates put the crew of “Telefónica” at the cape in four days' time, on approximately the first of April. The plan is to round Cape Horn and then head for the port of Ushuaia."


Then they will probably run engines for app 60-70nm (how fast they can go on the engine? 10kts)?, then repair, at least a day.
So that gives ADR app 5.5 days to reach the Horn. They have app 2100nm of direct line, and they will probably have an average of 450nm per day. 5.5x450 = app 2500nm.... this is going to be very close....




#840 Mud sailor

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:18 PM

Groupama gybes south to cover Puma

#841 Left Hook

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 10:54 PM

Seems to me like Puma is pouring it on a bit more in order to catch GPMA, averaging 3 knots faster at the latest sched.

#842 bombarie

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:53 PM


The other skipper mostly prefer to race each other in a pack across the ocean (with the exception of Ken Read in Leg 4 on the way to Tokyo). That's the sailing equivalent of catenaccio -- boring Italian defensive soccer games, where the key players are the leg-and-knee chopping defenders.


Given the wx data and conditions these teams have to work with, there aren't that many differing routing strategies that make sense. They don't have many chances to choose between "staying out of the current" and "going out for more pressure" in the open ocean.



That's the whole point chief -- if all the skippers all have the same info, resulting in them figuring course X is best resulting them in all sticking together, why did GPMA duck South in Leg 2, or NE in Leg 4 -- while the others dicked around, in the safety of the pack? I don't have any better answer then you do, but I like to think it can be explained by the "French way" as described above. Calculated risk taking. It's an elegant explanation, non?

#843 tama_manu

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:06 AM


G4 and Puma are likely to get hammered from the NW as they approach the horn as the low gets squeezed along the western slope of the Andes. Has the potential to be the roughest ride yet.

To me it seems they make it to the horn before the front. No big waves either...

+1. I saw an official source saying they were going to get hit hard too. Now the forecast seems to have changed?

#844 JumpingJax

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:17 AM



The other skipper mostly prefer to race each other in a pack across the ocean (with the exception of Ken Read in Leg 4 on the way to Tokyo). That's the sailing equivalent of catenaccio -- boring Italian defensive soccer games, where the key players are the leg-and-knee chopping defenders.


Given the wx data and conditions these teams have to work with, there aren't that many differing routing strategies that make sense. They don't have many chances to choose between "staying out of the current" and "going out for more pressure" in the open ocean.



That's the whole point chief -- if all the skippers all have the same info, resulting in them figuring course X is best resulting them in all sticking together, why did GPMA duck South in Leg 2, or NE in Leg 4 -- while the others dicked around, in the safety of the pack? I don't have any better answer then you do, but I like to think it can be explained by the "French way" as described above. Calculated risk taking. It's an elegant explanation, non?


Only if it works. In the roaring forties and below, there aren't any elegant risks to take: Sail to reach the pressure. Sail to stay in the pressure. Take care of the crew. Take care of the boat.And remember, there are no geographic features before the Cape to dilute the rules. There may be choices and attractive risks after that. We'll see.

#845 edelweis

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:28 AM

.... but I like to think it can be explained by the "French way" as described above. Calculated risk taking. It's an elegant explanation, non?

Vraiment! Am with you, bombarie, and Coville is too:
“We are sailing our route at our rhythm and following our feeling."
“Sure, we keep an eye on PUMA and we will keep tracking the others, but we are managing our race based on what we feel."
VOR site

#846 Ganzi

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:59 AM



The other skipper mostly prefer to race each other in a pack across the ocean (with the exception of Ken Read in Leg 4 on the way to Tokyo). That's the sailing equivalent of catenaccio -- boring Italian defensive soccer games, where the key players are the leg-and-knee chopping defenders.


Given the wx data and conditions these teams have to work with, there aren't that many differing routing strategies that make sense. They don't have many chances to choose between "staying out of the current" and "going out for more pressure" in the open ocean.



That's the whole point chief -- if all the skippers all have the same info, resulting in them figuring course X is best resulting them in all sticking together, why did GPMA duck South in Leg 2, or NE in Leg 4 -- while the others dicked around, in the safety of the pack? I don't have any better answer then you do, but I like to think it can be explained by the "French way" as described above. Calculated risk taking. It's an elegant explanation, non?





Speaking of national (or should we say cultural ?) differences between teams, crew management could be another area where the background of the core team makes an imprint: if you look at the crew lists, Groupama everybody is helmsmann/trimmer (OK I exxagerate slighly - they have 6 of them, Sanya, for instance, has 3). Coville explained in an pre-race interview that what they were building a crew capble of taking any positon. And of course that attitude relates to the French background of single-handed series: Figaro, mini-transat... creating pools of mullti-skilled guys. Read the interview of Stan Honey, navigator on Groupama -the multi- , beeing a bit suprized that various members of the crew would come and peek over his shoulder at the nav plans (see http://www.sailingwo...g/the-navigator). He was saying that in "anlgo" crews, skills are more compartimented.
So, yes, if you add all this traits (strategy, crew management, risk management), I guess that you end up with a US style, a French Style, a Kiwi style... And you just need a skipper to enforce this style (even though it surely helps that crew members fit with the style natively).

#847 JumpingJax

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:01 AM



G4 and Puma are likely to get hammered from the NW as they approach the horn as the low gets squeezed along the western slope of the Andes. Has the potential to be the roughest ride yet.

To me it seems they make it to the horn before the front. No big waves either...

+1. I saw an official source saying they were going to get hit hard too. Now the forecast seems to have changed?


The low is still not fully developed and hasn't accelerated to the east yet. G4 and Puma are leading the low now. Still could be a challenge if the low takes off, but it looks less likely for now. Camper didn't get the gentle progress to Chile they were trying for. And ADOR is holding the pressure and making good time, but the wx ahead of them is complex and they're still 1,000 nm behind Telefonica and not gaining. They could still make a pass but it's going to be close at best.

#848 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:14 AM

Posted Image

You can also get a 'Box of Camper' just in time for easter...

#849 JumpingJax

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:42 AM

Posted Image

You can also get a 'Box of Camper' just in time for easter...


Needs a couple more coats of varnish, mate.

#850 Te Kooti

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:26 AM




You can also get a 'Box of Camper' just in time for easter...


Needs a couple more coats of varnish, mate.



More important to fill void spaces with Vegemite, lamingtons, jaffas and sauvignon blanc.

#851 CrushDigital

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:37 AM



You can also get a 'Box of Camper' just in time for easter...


Needs a couple more coats of varnish, mate.



More important to fill void spaces with Vegemite, lamingtons, jaffas and sauvignon blanc.


I thought the kiwis were all out of vegemite...come to think of it maybe that explains the issues Camper has been having this leg

#852 DtM

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:43 AM

It's Marmite they are out of.

A very different thing to Vegemite !!!!

#853 umpire

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:27 AM

Latest from G4

http://www.cammas-gr..._equipe_416.jsp

#854 Polar_William

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:55 AM

According to the race tracker & 07 UTC report, Abu Dhabi has slowed down significantly - not due to running out of wind. Yet another problem due to over speeding a V70? :o

Edit: now no days of quietness: VOR-story: A narrow escape.

#855 umpire

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:07 AM

More from G4, gybing in the Southern Ocean. Why don't they put this stuff on the VOR front page?


http://new.livestrea...5/videos/393432

#856 Panoramix

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:15 AM


.... but I like to think it can be explained by the "French way" as described above. Calculated risk taking. It's an elegant explanation, non?

Vraiment! Am with you, bombarie, and Coville is too:
"We are sailing our route at our rhythm and following our feeling."
"Sure, we keep an eye on PUMA and we will keep tracking the others, but we are managing our race based on what we feel."
VOR site


Their strategy from the start has been to win the leg between the Cape Horn and the finish and to arrive to the Horn with the boat in one piece to be able to push the boat after.

Obviously they didn't anticipate the havoc in the fleet but are still applying their strategy, if Puma pushes too hard to their liking in difficult boat breaking seas they will let him go. But Ken Read isn't going to fall in the trap and we may see a very interesting race after Horn. They are just 3 hours behind, being on their own behind will make their life more difficult as it will be relatively easy for G4 to cover them especially as the boats are very similar and Puma can't force Groupama in a place where they are slower.

The big question is can AD put his act together and finish 3rd? That would influence the overall rankings.

#857 KingMonkey

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:46 AM

AD are now going VERY slowly for the second sched running. Hope they haven't broken something, they are due a turn of luck.

#858 onimod

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:51 AM

I hope it's just the missing wind wand that's slowing them down.
They seem pretty gung-ho compared to the other crews.

#859 edelweis

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:13 PM

And Camper gets a heavy beating. Don't know why they headed south, as this was foreseeable...

#860 onimod

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:25 PM

Another great video from Puma:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/393617
Funny stuff as usual; might not go down too well with some...

#861 Terrafirma

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 12:55 PM

Let's hope Puma can close the gap and put some pressure on G4? Two similar boats going at almost the same speeds, has G4 got the edge or can Puma get one back on the French? Interesting times ahead.. :)

#862 Acuta

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:21 PM

Abu Dhabi is definately hurting. For the 3rd report in a row, they are doing only 10-12 knots, in 34 knots wind. Must have broken something in their night crash.


Damn - I was looking forward to the race between them and Tele.

#863 Panoramix

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:32 PM

AD are now going VERY slowly for the second sched running. Hope they haven't broken something, they are due a turn of luck.


They were reporting 40+ surfs so it wouldn't be surprising that they've broken something!

#864 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:04 PM

Another great video from Puma:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/393617
Funny stuff as usual; might not go down too well with some...


Pretty funny...especially after the Skippy peanut butter vid.

#865 PonderousPelican

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:07 PM

The scoreboard looks a bit funny.
First ocean leg has points apportioned 30, 25, 20 ... as I would expect.
The second ocean leg is 29, 24, 19, 18, 10, 5.
The third ocean leg is 27, 24, 18, 17, 14, 5.
Then the 4th is 30, 25, 20, 15, 10, 5.

So what's up with legs 2 and 3? Were points taken from protests? Taken from multiple boats? What's the story here?

#866 victor t

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:21 PM

The scoreboard looks a bit funny.
First ocean leg has points apportioned 30, 25, 20 ... as I would expect.
The second ocean leg is 29, 24, 19, 18, 10, 5.
The third ocean leg is 27, 24, 18, 17, 14, 5.
Then the 4th is 30, 25, 20, 15, 10, 5.

So what's up with legs 2 and 3? Were points taken from protests? Taken from multiple boats? What's the story here?


impact of the inshores?

#867 Vorwaerts

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:23 PM

The scoreboard looks a bit funny.
First ocean leg has points apportioned 30, 25, 20 ... as I would expect.
The second ocean leg is 29, 24, 19, 18, 10, 5.
The third ocean leg is 27, 24, 18, 17, 14, 5.
Then the 4th is 30, 25, 20, 15, 10, 5.

So what's up with legs 2 and 3? Were points taken from protests? Taken from multiple boats? What's the story here?


Below the table is a link:

Stage 1 + Stage 2 - More info here

#868 Carboninit

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:26 PM

Abu Dhabi is definately hurting. For the 3rd report in a row, they are doing only 10-12 knots, in 34 knots wind. Must have broken something in their night crash.


Damn - I was looking forward to the race between them and Tele.


I give up with the whole race .Nurse this nurse that slow down.As soon as they go fast they break. I reckon the sponsors are getting pretty pissed off as well with all the extra logistics, its like the bloody Titanic , come back , come back.

#869 Heriberto

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:34 PM

Abu Dhabi is definately hurting. For the 3rd report in a row, they are doing only 10-12 knots, in 34 knots wind. Must have broken something in their night crash.


Damn - I was looking forward to the race between them and Tele.


If that is true that is also going to be bad news for Camper. AD were there safety card.

#870 Bmajor

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:37 PM

Abu Dhabi is definately hurting. For the 3rd report in a row, they are doing only 10-12 knots, in 34 knots wind. Must have broken something in their night crash.


Damn - I was looking forward to the race between them and Tele.



Looks like Abu Dhabi may be going to help Camper. They were supposedly on "stand by" if Camper needed assistance.

Oh, and I would be remiss if I didn't tell you to show us your wife's/girlfriend's tits!

#871 Dave S

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

From the VOR website:
Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing have slowed down to give themselves an opportunity to make a damage assessment after the team's racing yacht Azzam suffered some delamination to the hull. All crew are safe and well.

#872 Vorwaerts

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:48 PM


Abu Dhabi is definately hurting. For the 3rd report in a row, they are doing only 10-12 knots, in 34 knots wind. Must have broken something in their night crash.


Damn - I was looking forward to the race between them and Tele.



Looks like Abu Dhabi may be going to help Camper. They were supposedly on "stand by" if Camper needed assistance.

Oh, and I would be remiss if I didn't tell you to show us your wife's/girlfriend's tits!

No, it is on the Volvo page, they are slowing down to asses damage. It is delamination in the bow area.

#873 GBH

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:53 PM


Abu Dhabi is definately hurting. For the 3rd report in a row, they are doing only 10-12 knots, in 34 knots wind. Must have broken something in their night crash.


Damn - I was looking forward to the race between them and Tele.


If that is true that is also going to be bad news for Camper. AD were there safety card.



Bit of delamination and there's a surprise. Looks like their best option will be join up with Camper on a ship and avoid any more nasty rough stuff. Won't be any confidence in the boat by now. So any bets on who does make it around without hopping onto a ship for leg?
Time to pull the plug on the race or rejig it with more sensible boats for the job - or even maybe force the crews to have some decent protection! The hard-ass attitude of 'we can take it' is plain dumb but then can't feel much sympathy seeing as they are getting good wedges out of it.

#874 IBro

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 02:53 PM

How many boats will start the leg 6 on time?
G4, Puma ... so far so good
Tele - most likely
Camper - shore crew will tell
ADOR - huh if delamination is serious!? .... they have 26 days to cover 3000nm and make a pitstop
Sanya - nope

#875 Dave S

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:16 PM

I really don't have a problem with what we're seeing, so long as no-one gets seriously hurt (subjectively, the injury rate seems to be no worse than previous races, including the Whitbread races). This is supposed to be the cutting edge of ocean racing, and at that cutting edge one of the key skills is taking your boat to the limit without overcooking it. We see this sort of thing the whole time in short-handed racing and record attempts, except that the guys who get the records are arguable more successful at backing off before they break the boat.

To the people who are saying the boats should be strong enough for their crews to push them "to the limit": Exactly what "limit" do you mean? In my book they are pushing their boats to the limit, and in some cases beyond...

#876 KingMonkey

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

Don't know whether to call them idiots for pushing hard or feel sorry for them.

#877 dogwatch

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:28 PM

To the people who are saying the boats should be strong enough for their crews to push them "to the limit": Exactly what "limit" do you mean?


The limit of what the crew can handle.

Posted Image

"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today"

#878 KingMonkey

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:32 PM

Ken Read said it all to me "We've all proved we've got enough power to break the boats!"

#879 Panoramix

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:33 PM

To the people who are saying the boats should be strong enough for their crews to push them "to the limit": Exactly what "limit" do you mean? In my book they are pushing their boats to the limit, and in some cases beyond...


Indeed, this is a mechanical sport and taking care of the machine is part of the racing!

#880 JumpingJax

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:44 PM

It looks as if G4 and Puma may be falling off the back of the system they've been on since the middle ice marker. And the low coming "behind" them is now at the beginning of being funneled down on top of them from the north. The guys who have suggested these guys would make it around the horn before the low could catch them may still be right, but it's a close thing. And it remains to be seen how much the Andes will "slingshot" the flow onto the boats. Still 400 nm to go. Keep up the boat speed, guys!

And if those earlier comments are right about the low taking a while to get to the cape, it may be Telefonica that gets hammered. Stay well, guys.

#881 Mash

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:57 PM

To the people who are saying the boats should be strong enough for their crews to push them "to the limit": Exactly what "limit" do you mean? In my book they are pushing their boats to the limit, and in some cases beyond...


What he said, really. Yeah, it plainly sucks that so few boats (hum, well, two...) are still really racing at this point, but in a way, all the more credit for their crews. It's not like those VOR70 just disintegrated by themselves with no hope of redemption: apparently you can actually bring them to the finish line if you just don't keep the pedal to the metal in some circumstances. And, admittedly, have a bit of luck to spare...

Another SAer mentioned a recent entry on Puma's blog by KR, who seems to agree with this:

Two things are certainly clear. 1: When conditions warrant, we all have the power to break these boats. No matter who says this or that boat is built to withstand the elements in order to be able to be pushed harder than others, it just isn't true. Believe me, you can't call these boats fragile by any means. In fact, with the torture we put them through, it is simply amazing they are in one piece at all. Every boat is just one bad wave away from being healthy or hurt – any boat for that matter, from a 30 weekend cruiser to a Volvo 70. These boats are no exception. Which leads to point 2: We have certainly been calculated, but also lucky. We have caught air on many occasions when it was least expected. The crash that ensues is staggering. Heads pop out of the hatch and a crawling inspection around all the framing begins within minutes. We have been lucky so far. It's like a car crash. You always wonder if it would have happened if you had left the house 5 seconds later or slowed at the orange light when you didn't. We have missed our car crash so far, so our timing has been pretty good. Have I ever mentioned that I knock on wood every time I say stuff like this? Our little piece of wood at the nav station is getting worn out.



So maybe doom is just around the corner and G4 or Puma will prove me wrong and suffer major damage in ten minutes. Yet, I'm not sure there's so much inherently wrong about the VOR70s (not that I could be bothered to endure what these guys are going through in the South, that's so above my own limitations it's not even in the same galaxy. Having a day sail on one of those beasts, on the other hand....Dear Santa, are you listening ?)

M

#882 Clovis

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:19 PM

Speaking of national (or should we say cultural ?) differences between teams, crew management could be another area where the background of the core team makes an imprint: if you look at the crew lists, Groupama everybody is helmsmann/trimmer (OK I exxagerate slighly - they have 6 of them, Sanya, for instance, has 3). Coville explained in an pre-race interview that what they were building a crew capble of taking any positon. And of course that attitude relates to the French background of single-handed series: Figaro, mini-transat... creating pools of mullti-skilled guys. Read the interview of Stan Honey, navigator on Groupama -the multi- , beeing a bit suprized that various members of the crew would come and peek over his shoulder at the nav plans (see http://www.sailingwo...g/the-navigator). He was saying that in "anlgo" crews, skills are more compartimented.
So, yes, if you add all this traits (strategy, crew management, risk management), I guess that you end up with a US style, a French Style, a Kiwi style... And you just need a skipper to enforce this style (even though it surely helps that crew members fit with the style natively).



That interview is absolutely excellent, and addresses many of the questions regarding Kiwi vs French crews...
Great read, great link, thank you!

C.

#883 Port Tack Approach

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:25 PM


To the people who are saying the boats should be strong enough for their crews to push them "to the limit": Exactly what "limit" do you mean? In my book they are pushing their boats to the limit, and in some cases beyond...


What he said, really. Yeah, it plainly sucks that so few boats (hum, well, two...) are still really racing at this point, but in a way, all the more credit for their crews. It's not like those VOR70 just disintegrated by themselves with no hope of redemption: apparently you can actually bring them to the finish line if you just don't keep the pedal to the metal in some circumstances. And, admittedly, have a bit of luck to spare...

Another SAer mentioned a recent entry on Puma's blog by KR, who seems to agree with this:

Two things are certainly clear. 1: When conditions warrant, we all have the power to break these boats. No matter who says this or that boat is built to withstand the elements in order to be able to be pushed harder than others, it just isn't true. Believe me, you can't call these boats fragile by any means. In fact, with the torture we put them through, it is simply amazing they are in one piece at all. Every boat is just one bad wave away from being healthy or hurt – any boat for that matter, from a 30 weekend cruiser to a Volvo 70. These boats are no exception. Which leads to point 2: We have certainly been calculated, but also lucky. We have caught air on many occasions when it was least expected. The crash that ensues is staggering. Heads pop out of the hatch and a crawling inspection around all the framing begins within minutes. We have been lucky so far. It's like a car crash. You always wonder if it would have happened if you had left the house 5 seconds later or slowed at the orange light when you didn't. We have missed our car crash so far, so our timing has been pretty good. Have I ever mentioned that I knock on wood every time I say stuff like this? Our little piece of wood at the nav station is getting worn out.



So maybe doom is just around the corner and G4 or Puma will prove me wrong and suffer major damage in ten minutes. Yet, I'm not sure there's so much inherently wrong about the VOR70s (not that I could be bothered to endure what these guys are going through in the South, that's so above my own limitations it's not even in the same galaxy. Having a day sail on one of those beasts, on the other hand....Dear Santa, are you listening ?)

M

They have wood on these boats? why?

#884 JumpingJax

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:38 PM

To the people who are saying the boats should be strong enough for their crews to push them "to the limit": Exactly what "limit" do you mean? In my book they are pushing their boats to the limit, and in some cases beyond...


Indeed, this is a mechanical sport and taking care of the machine is part of the racing!


In the past, when pushed too hard, boats would lose the rig. Not a great experience, but a LOT better than losing the hull, particularly at 50S. That's part of the machine taking care of the people in good design and construction that give the people Graceful Failure Modes, those which may disable the boat, but take care of the people by preventing still worse failures. It's a truism to say that there's enough power to break the boat as KR said; there's always enough power to break something when it begins to power up in a breeze. And it's right that the people need to take care of the boat. But at another level, another step up the priority ladder, it's really important to know that the boat will take care of the people. And that's the job of the designers and builders.

Of the four boats limping in for repairs on this leg, every one has had the integrity of the hull fail. Not one has lost a rig on this leg. I would suggest that a loss of hull integrity is just about the last failure mode that should be accepted except in the case of collisions. As we know, collisions with containers, etc. is a real danger, and water tight bulkheads are essential to keep the boat floating. So far it seems the four have managed to contain the damage (and only Sanya have taken water through a breach in the hull so far, apparently). The crews have done a fine job. (On the other hand, Camper and G4 apparently didn't learn their lesson the first time and went out and did it again. But we don't know what advice and guidance they got from the shore teams about the initial failures and the integrity of the fixes. But they've each held the boat together twice now, so they are doing a fine job too.)

The crews are obviously pushing the boats to their limits and they haven't lost a rig (on this leg) so far. The failures are ones they crews had no reason to expect or to prepare for.

Until now, there has never been any basis to throttle the boats to avoid hull delamination, as that has never been a foreseeable mode of failure. Apart from a collision, the integrity of the hull has always been the one thing the crew needn't worry about. I suggest that the designers, engineers and builders have obviously failed. In this context, I think it very unsatisfying to leave it at "Oh well, live and learn." Granted, we don't have anyone climbing into life rafts so far, but I don't think we can take that as justification for a "No Harm, No Foul" conclusion and leave it at that.

#885 wolverine

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:42 PM

It did not take long for Abu Dhabi to break...it seems that they just got into some breeze and basically had some type of premature ejau-a-wipeout. And the bit about crash tacking after loosing the gauges..what about the compass...sails luffing...there arte other indicators to prevent an episode of killing all on board?????

.if they were going upwind its a mistake but sailing at 120 TW and maybe 85 AWA and sheets eased, this is a major slip for a helmsman...maybe the sheets were trimmed too tight but even so those guys should just sail in and be happy no one got killed.

With that said I will give them a touch of credit for releasing the story...this is a blunder indeed. Time to put some training wheels on that ride....

#886 Dave S

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:52 PM

Hull delamination and structural failures in this race are nothing new. Off the top of my head (and I'm sure there have been other cases), in 1985 Drum had to divert to Namibia with serious hull delamination issues (having previously lost its keel in the Fastnet), and in 1993 half the W60 fleet (and, iirc one of the maxis) had major delamination problems. There has always been a requirement to throttle back, in some conditions, to avoid risk of hull damage.

#887 Tom O'Keefe

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 04:58 PM

No rigs have fallen in this leg. But, Ador and Puma both lost rigs in leg one and Sanya almost lost hers later. Telephonica even had standing rigging issues. So, by your logic they should not have gone back to a proven dependable set of standing rigging. They should have just replaced with what they had and figured they over pushed the capabitlity of the entire design.

The failures race only stopped teams from racing or slowed them down. They have not required rescue. Previous iterations have required rescue and far more IMOCA boats have had to have their skippers rescued than Volvo or Whitbread boats.

It's about competition and how hard the teams are willing to push. If you don't like the risks these guys are taking, you don't have to sign up for a VO70 program. But, these guys keep coming back and are more than happy to push to and occassionaly beyond the edge. They are willing to accept that if they do need rescue, it's more than likely going to come from one of their competitors.

#888 victor t

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

I hope the 2 remaining boats will make it to the end of the leg... I wouldn't want to see a unique boat still in the race

I really have fun watching them race but with all that + the outrageous cost for a sponsor (which led to only 6 boats on the starting line) my opinion is that a lot of things will change in the VOR future

#889 couchsurfer

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

.if they were going upwind its a mistake but sailing at 120 TW and maybe 85 AWA and sheets eased, this is a major slip for a helmsman...maybe the sheets were trimmed too tight but even so those guys should just sail in and be happy no one got killed.

With that said I will give them a touch of credit for releasing the story...this is a blunder indeed. Time to put some training wheels on that ride....

,,,it's good to know there's such a knowledgeable V70 coach available :lol:

#890 Wess

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:08 PM

From the VOR website:
Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing have slowed down to give themselves an opportunity to make a damage assessment after the team's racing yacht Azzam suffered some delamination to the hull. All crew are safe and well.


And another one bites the dust...

Good grief.

They are going to get hammered in a bit if they don't get that boat out of harms way.

Personally, I hope they get it resolved and finish the leg ahead of Tele as it would blow the race wide open. Realistically, I doubt they finish the leg but bet Tele does. Speaking of which both Group and Puma should put it into delivery mode and back wayyyyy off, no? Little to gain by beating the other and much to lose by breaking the boat.

#891 Te Kooti

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:12 PM

I hope the 2 remaining boats will make it to the end of the leg... I wouldn't want to see a unique boat still in the race



If only two boats make it, the Itajai stopover will not be the happy carnival VOR organisers hope for.

Instead, plenty of unoccupied dock space.

#892 moody frog

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:17 PM

Back to racing !

Groupama's afternoon (UTC) report HERE

and insight of the day:

"We've tried to get our bearings in the rough weather in terms of the way we trim the boat and we're being sparing with her, whilst making fast headway. We've tested the different sail configurations. At times, it's reminiscent of multihull sailing, where you have to make headway gently, really bearing away, with the sails depowered and hence not sailing the boat flat out. On the whole, we tend to carry more sail up forward whilst putting reefs in the mainsail, as we're doing at the moment under masthead gennaker. We've always tried to slip across the waves gently and the helmsman has to really play around with the wheel so as not to slow down too suddenly and not accelerate too fast.



#893 roca

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:18 PM

Seriously though, an under-30 team doing a VOR?

I know lots of teams that were trying to get to the party this time round- all of them with very well proven crews and cash to buy the boat- just not to complete the race. Many of these guys have done a VOR before, sailed round the world.....you name it, and they still didn't get the cash to do the race. Look at the last edition with Team Russia- the guy that headed the campaign was fucking minted- I met him, I spent time with him, he is loaded- yet even he couldn't justify the cost of it.
The whole 'Morning Glory' concept is great- but let's face it, the US doesn't have game when it comes to yacht sponsorship for whatever reason. It is a shame because patriotism is king in the US and there is a long Q of very good sailors, ground crew, builders and managers to work on a VOR campaign, but an under-30 team of no-name jocks.....meh.


ABN AMRO did that with boat 2 in first vo70 edition. Somone here can remeber us better what that team was like. i think seb josse skipper, sci-fi was onboard ..and poor hans. Cool team. It would not be very expensive for a top team have a second boat (old one?) with yung crew.

#894 roca

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:20 PM

Don´t worry, Larry Ellison will eventually get interested and then buy his way to a Volvo victory. He´ll then re-design the rules to his liking, make big $$$ offers to the best skippers around that they can´t say no to and will probably be choppered to skipper his boat at the end of the most difficult leg...


So you can have volvo on multihulls evntually.

I will turn my sailing interest only to figaros

#895 wolverine

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:21 PM


.if they were going upwind its a mistake but sailing at 120 TW and maybe 85 AWA and sheets eased, this is a major slip for a helmsman...maybe the sheets were trimmed too tight but even so those guys should just sail in and be happy no one got killed.

With that said I will give them a touch of credit for releasing the story...this is a blunder indeed. Time to put some training wheels on that ride....

,,,it's good to know there's such a knowledgeable V70 coach available :lol:




Is that couch or coach???

#896 harzak

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:28 PM

They have wood on these boats? why?

Just to touch, for good luck.

I don't know if it's an inside joke or true.

#897 haggers

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:31 PM

So there seems to be two schools of thought.

Boat design/engineering is fine just teach the crew when to back off.
or
It's not the crews fault - Assess the design/Engineering rule for the V70 and let the teams push harder than they currently can.

There are good arguments for both and I am sure there will be improvements in both areas for the next edition. Its just frustrating as spectator to watch the race blow up. The good part is that the lessons learned from the engineering and build technology will trickle down through the industry to help make the sport safer and more fun.

#898 roca

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:38 PM

Wooowwww, all these stories about French and American sailor!

As a Frenchman, Ithink that Groupama is sailing in a very "French" way, by this I mean not being afraid of creating lateral separation when they need to attack and relying more on strategy than sheer speed to win. I have a feeling that the Kiwis are the opposite and just want to win by sailing faster than the other teams. Cammas and Nelias were not used to this kind of boat and competitors and it took time for them to go to the end without falling in windholes but they are getting better at their own game.

IMHO, Puma is sailing very well and deserve much better than being 4th overall, their leg 4 attack was mastery, and their overall ranking reflects more the loss of their mast and a bit of luck from TF and Camper on leg 2 (Come on, you need luck to see a big opening in the Doldrums while the others are too far ahead to take it!)


I for one, have said that I love this team more and more. I think they have a very evident "style", different from other teams, probably "french" but I do not know (we cannot but get reminders of Loick huge record of few weeks ago, spanding the whole time saving and managing the boat to get an incredible result). They look so more casual..
In any case I like them from the beginning , still remember first leg when they went south along morocco. It didn't work as expected maybe, but was great seing them sailing at 15knts in no waves and sun , while others crashing for weeks in messy gales, ie puma dismastd short after)
I dared to say at that time that it could have payed in the long run to save boat and crew. It seemed so much smarter already then, now it seems a genius.
Let us also remember that franck is the only skipper with no experience in this race and boats, this makes his russults untill now even better. next time could do better.
And their reports seem to be so complete and clear.
go groupama

#899 roca

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:49 PM





More interesting question in my mind: What did Groupama see that nobody else did?



Maybe downwind sailing in 12 knt real in full moon and 20 degrees and sun instead of sailing a V70 upwind in 20 kkts and chopped sea for few days ?
I'd rather crew on gpma than the others right now :P

more seriously looking at ADOR and sanya it is not so bad choice under this aspect too, save the boat, they proved not unbreakable upwind....
they are sponsored by an insurer, they must have tought them the odds...


a LOT easier oin crew and boat, too.


Last time I checked the VOR was about finishing first/as fast as possible, not about going for an easy cruise..

that's the reason for my smile..

but then seriously speaking, as abudhabi and Sanya and imocas prove, ocean racing nowadays is first about finishing. stop. then about being first/fast. There is a lot of the boat and the project in finishing but also the way it is sailed. Ask mich desjy and/or alex thomson.

so the new question is : even if east proved slower (I do not think so, I think the frogs know well how to cross the atlantic going south..)

would you trade 4-hours advance at Norhonia islands of againdst 4 days of heavy upwind beating on boat (and crew)?


I know..not nice to quote myself..but once in a while. This is from leg 1 topic.
And yes I was really wrong about them making it and crossing the atlantic first ;)

#900 tls

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:54 PM

In the past, when pushed too hard, boats would lose the rig. Not a great experience, but a LOT better than losing the hull, particularly at 50S. That's part of the machine taking care of the people in good design and construction that give the people Graceful Failure Modes, those which may disable the boat, but take care of the people by preventing still worse failures.


This is simply not true. The rigs for VOR or Whitbread boats have never been designed to be break away or serve as a "weak link." By the way, a falling rig is an extremely good way to kill crew or create an unrecoverable MOB situation. It would be foolish to ever design the rig to break even at sustained max GZ.

I think one thing you need to consider when slagging on these boats is that the structural requirements for the boats in this edition of the race are every bit as high has for the last edition, which did not have this level of failure. Moreover, these structural requirements are more stringent than either the Open 60 or the old Whitbread 60 boats. These are not weak boats by any conventional measure. They substantially exceed the structural requirements for all other racing classes in the world as well as all standard industry guidelines.

So why have they had these specific hull problems in this edition of the race and not the prior editions using substantially similar structures? I don't really have an answer, but can think of several possibilities:

(1) The first is that this race has featured an unusually amount of beating/close reaching in large seas and gale+ winds. This is pretty brutal on boats, and has been known to cause serious hull failures even on large ships. I don't remember this many days of abuse on any prior VOR.
(2) The second possibility is that there are new loads on these boats from the rigging that create additional stresses that we haven't seen in the past. The peak luff tension on these new head sails (particularly in large seas) may be forces we haven't seen before.
(3) The third is that the boats are marginally faster in big seas than in the past. Slamming loads increase at something greater than velocity cubed, so small differences in speed may create deceptively large differences in loads.
(4) Finally, it is possible that there are changes in the construction materials or methods that have unanticipated negative effects on fatigue properties. For example, the fleet may have moved to a different grade of carbon fiber, but the change did not increase the strength as much as expected because the failure is now in the resin not the fiber. I don't know enough about the precise materials used over time to evaluate this possibility.




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