Jump to content


VOR Leg 5


  • Please log in to reply
2146 replies to this topic

#1001 smackdaddy

smackdaddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,753 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:38 PM



So the general thesis we are reading here is that there's nothing wrong with the VO70 rule or the designers or the boat-builders. The problem is that 4 out of 6 these crews and skippers, despite most of them having ocean race CVs as long as your arm, are clue-less and don't know how or when to ease off.

Either the World's best sailors don't know when to ease off...
or the World's best designers aren't designing sufficiently robust boats...
or the World's best boatbuilders aren't building them well enough...
or the World's best teams aren't making the right design/build decisions...

I think that takes care of all the possibilities. Given that most of the sailing teams have been heavily involved in the design/build of their boats, the responsibility all comes back to the same people anyway.

The only skipper to have expressed a view so far is Ken Read, who made his thoughts very clear; I bet that when the other 5 are interviewed after the finish, every one of them expresses a similar opinion.

There is another possibility: The structure of the race, with four doldrum crossing and numerous in-port races requires that, to win the most points, the boat must be built to win in the light, and survive in the rough, and what we are seeing is that the worlds best sailors do know when to back off, but the next rung down don't seem to.

Even blaming the race structure is a bit unfair, since the JV boats such as BPV are built along the same lines - superfast in the light, and able to skip around the rough stuff. The mono's are too slow to skip around, so either they accept the breakages when they get it wrong, or a scantlings rule is imposed that forces the boats to be strong enough for the rough stuff, so they'll all be equally slow in the light.

Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


+1. Great post.

#1002 TheDragon

TheDragon

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 514 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:40 PM

Inside or outside of the Falklands for the two leaders? It would be great to see a split.

#1003 moody frog

moody frog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,665 posts
  • Location:Brittany

Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:46 PM

...and G4 is just rounding The Rock....Congrats Frank and crew...and Puma soon !!!

Attached Files



#1004 Who's your daddy

Who's your daddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 02:48 PM

I actually think a lot of it is to do with the VO70 rule. The bulbs were made a little heavier this time so maybe the scantlings are not up to spec for the extra power. Very rarely will a team build a boat heavier than the minimum and if you did chances are you would lose.

Bulbs are lighter this time. The all up keel weight is the same at 7400kgs, but the minimum fin weight has been added. So the fins have gone from around 1720kgs up to 1900kgs meaning the bulbs are about 180kgs lighter.
Maybe this has pushed to replace the lost stability with more form stability, making the hulls more prone to slamming. But then again the change in race course has probably had a greater effect.
I think the comment that they are too loate in the season to be in the Southern Ocean has a lot of merit.

#1005 IBro

IBro

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 63 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:06 PM

Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


IMHO Tele is showing great seamanship as well. I don;t see them pushing the blue boat to hard. G4 had delamination problems as well. It was never clear if it was an UFO or just material wear under stress. I doubt this is clear for Tele.
I think Tele is handling their situation very well. For Sanya I can't tell, but Camper & ADOR were pushing to hard for sure.

#1006 trimfast

trimfast

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 129 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:11 PM




So the general thesis we are reading here is that there's nothing wrong with the VO70 rule or the designers or the boat-builders. The problem is that 4 out of 6 these crews and skippers, despite most of them having ocean race CVs as long as your arm, are clue-less and don't know how or when to ease off.

Either the World's best sailors don't know when to ease off...
or the World's best designers aren't designing sufficiently robust boats...
or the World's best boatbuilders aren't building them well enough...
or the World's best teams aren't making the right design/build decisions...

I think that takes care of all the possibilities. Given that most of the sailing teams have been heavily involved in the design/build of their boats, the responsibility all comes back to the same people anyway.

The only skipper to have expressed a view so far is Ken Read, who made his thoughts very clear; I bet that when the other 5 are interviewed after the finish, every one of them expresses a similar opinion.

There is another possibility: The structure of the race, with four doldrum crossing and numerous in-port races requires that, to win the most points, the boat must be built to win in the light, and survive in the rough, and what we are seeing is that the worlds best sailors do know when to back off, but the next rung down don't seem to.

Even blaming the race structure is a bit unfair, since the JV boats such as BPV are built along the same lines - superfast in the light, and able to skip around the rough stuff. The mono's are too slow to skip around, so either they accept the breakages when they get it wrong, or a scantlings rule is imposed that forces the boats to be strong enough for the rough stuff, so they'll all be equally slow in the light.

Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


+1. Great post.


I would only disagree with one portion of this post. Lets not forget that Ian Walker has been around once before on a VO70, as well as most of these guys on various other offshore campaigns. By now I am pretty sure they know when to back off. However, from this aspect as well, they probably were pushing the boat hard to try and get that last podium spot and wound up getting over zealous in some aspects. But, just my thought.

#1007 Panoramix

Panoramix

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Location:Rennes, Brittany, France

Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:21 PM

Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


But how much weight do you need to make the boats more robust?

These boats are weighting 14t so if you increase the boat weight by say 2%, that's 280kg which is an awfull lot to strengthen the area between the bow and the mast. Will it make the boat slower? Yes Will we see the difference as spectators? Probably not as they will still sail very fast.

Having only 2 boats intact is really bad for the race, if there were say 4 slightly slower boats left in, the race would be far more interesting!

#1008 USA190520

USA190520

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,934 posts
  • Location:mostly here but not all there

Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:32 PM

Props to yabba dabba doh!

Ballsy fix especially when you're outside the environment.

#1009 hump101

hump101

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 280 posts
  • Location:Brittany, France
  • Interests:Naval Architecture structural engineering, speedsailing, offshore racing

Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:38 PM

I would only disagree with one portion of this post. Lets not forget that Ian Walker has been around once before on a VO70, as well as most of these guys on various other offshore campaigns. By now I am pretty sure they know when to back off. However, from this aspect as well, they probably were pushing the boat hard to try and get that last podium spot and wound up getting over zealous in some aspects. But, just my thought.

I wasn't seeking to dismiss the experience of anyone in particular, but experience of pushing a boat that you think might break if you hit a rogue wave is very different to pushing a boat that you know will break from the loads it can generate itself if incorrectly sailed, let alone from an external source.

The first might give you some useful data points if you happen to hit something. The latter will be giving you useful data points continuously, and make sensing the limits instinctive. Groupama crew is full of people with this latter experience. I don't know the Puma crew but Ken Read certainly has too, and it is showing here.

#1010 harzak

harzak

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 566 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:39 PM

Inside or outside of the Falklands for the two leaders? It would be great to see a split.


Judging from the tracker forecast, outside looks like an upwind ride, while the inside has weaker less stable winds but favourable wind directions. As long as Telefonica stops, I think the safe route for both boats will be the inside, just to avoid breakage.

However, a split would strategically benefit the trailing boat. So it's in Groupama's interest to cover Puma. Since Groupama is thought to be a slightly slower boat upwind, Puma might try and force Groupama to cover outside the Falklands. If the sea state is thought to be manageable, that is.

How about inside or outside of Isla de los Estados for starters?

#1011 roca

roca

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 03:42 PM



So the general thesis we are reading here is that there's nothing wrong with the VO70 rule or the designers or the boat-builders. The problem is that 4 out of 6 these crews and skippers, despite most of them having ocean race CVs as long as your arm, are clue-less and don't know how or when to ease off.

Either the World's best sailors don't know when to ease off...
or the World's best designers aren't designing sufficiently robust boats...
or the World's best boatbuilders aren't building them well enough...
or the World's best teams aren't making the right design/build decisions...

I think that takes care of all the possibilities. Given that most of the sailing teams have been heavily involved in the design/build of their boats, the responsibility all comes back to the same people anyway.

The only skipper to have expressed a view so far is Ken Read, who made his thoughts very clear; I bet that when the other 5 are interviewed after the finish, every one of them expresses a similar opinion.

There is another possibility: The structure of the race, with four doldrum crossing and numerous in-port races requires that, to win the most points, the boat must be built to win in the light, and survive in the rough, and what we are seeing is that the worlds best sailors do know when to back off, but the next rung down don't seem to.

Even blaming the race structure is a bit unfair, since the JV boats such as BPV are built along the same lines - superfast in the light, and able to skip around the rough stuff. The mono's are too slow to skip around, so either they accept the breakages when they get it wrong, or a scantlings rule is imposed that forces the boats to be strong enough for the rough stuff, so they'll all be equally slow in the light.

Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


I think there is a lot of responsibilty in designers other than skippers, the old black betty alias ABN AMRO 1 went around two times with a great record of reliability and performance. It is possible to build reliable vo70s. That was a great boat, I think Sanderson would rather have choseen that instead of the old telblue for sanya; he would probably have won this leg on that boat...and be 3rd or 4th overall now.. I am not sure the peformance gap would be so impressive.

#1012 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:27 PM

So that's 3 boats out of 6 suffering from failure disproportionate to the cause!


I am not sure this is disproportionate to the cause until we know the cause. This isn't a slamming loads failure, given its location. Several possible causes spring to mind:

1) a core bonding problem due to construction materials or procedures
2) The result of an impact that has slowly caused the sandwich to unzip or core to fail (e.g., this is the part of the boat that bumps against the dock if the fenders slip)
3) The result of rigging loads that far exceeded what was deemed possible (e.g., if you crash tack and catch your boom on the backstay in 40 knots of wind). Backstay tension create substantial stress near the turns in the bilge in between bulkheads. Rather than the mast coming down, the stresses may bend the boat.

#1013 Kenny Dumas

Kenny Dumas

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 668 posts
  • Location:Oregon

Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:36 PM

Inside the Falklands looks pretty hard to beat: Better pressure and at ~40 hours from now you want to be in the southerly, closer to the coast.

#1014 dlangpap

dlangpap

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 156 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:53 PM


Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


But how much weight do you need to make the boats more robust?

These boats are weighting 14t so if you increase the boat weight by say 2%, that's 280kg which is an awfull lot to strengthen the area between the bow and the mast. Will it make the boat slower? Yes Will we see the difference as spectators? Probably not as they will still sail very fast.

Having only 2 boats intact is really bad for the race, if there were say 4 slightly slower boats left in, the race would be far more interesting!


Personally, I would rather see an unnoticeably slower race between 4 or 6 heavier boats than a faster race between 2 boats. And I would rather see more boats racing unnoticeably slower in these conditions than faster in the doldrums. This being the Volvo, who watches the boats in the doldrums anyway and who cares if they are faster there? In short, maybe the bias of the race, meaning everything from design to route planning, should be more towards these kinds of conditions than the lighter stuff.

#1015 Panoramix

Panoramix

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Location:Rennes, Brittany, France

Posted 30 March 2012 - 04:55 PM


So that's 3 boats out of 6 suffering from failure disproportionate to the cause!


I am not sure this is disproportionate to the cause until we know the cause. This isn't a slamming loads failure, given its location. Several possible causes spring to mind:

1) a core bonding problem due to construction materials or procedures
2) The result of an impact that has slowly caused the sandwich to unzip or core to fail (e.g., this is the part of the boat that bumps against the dock if the fenders slip)
3) The result of rigging loads that far exceeded what was deemed possible (e.g., if you crash tack and catch your boom on the backstay in 40 knots of wind). Backstay tension create substantial stress near the turns in the bilge in between bulkheads. Rather than the mast coming down, the stresses may bend the boat.


By cause, I meant external factors such as freak wave, pushing the boat too hard, hitting something...

I can understand that Sanya lost a rudder after hitting some immerged log or container, Groupama got a panel failure after driving the boat against the wind several days, or Puma lost his mast after chasing Telefonica very hard...

But delamination on the side, it's either a wave slamming hard on the boat or some stresses from the rigging or the keel that haven't been designed for. For Camper and Telefonica, I can understand that they have a panel fail at the front but loosing the primary structure of the boat is definitely disproportionate to slamming in the sea, that's something that you could expect after hitting another boat or a concrete wall!

#1016 dlangpap

dlangpap

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 156 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 05:48 PM

"Once the support team have found an isolated spot, they will begin repairs on Telefónica with a view to getting them back on their way after 12 hours -- the minimum amount of time a team can suspend racing."

Can anyone explain the logic behind this rule?

#1017 bbr

bbr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 125 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:26 PM

"Once the support team have found an isolated spot, they will begin repairs on Telefónica with a view to getting them back on their way after 12 hours -- the minimum amount of time a team can suspend racing."

Can anyone explain the logic behind this rule?


Otherwise the teams could have people waiting for them in a bunch of places along the course and stop whenever they wanted, especially along the more coastal parts of the legs... this way it gives them more incentive to build the boats and gear stronger (more dependable), although as we know that's not working very well...

If Telefonica were to do the work themselves without using outside assistance (their shore team, for example) then they wouldn't need to suspend racing and wouldn't get hit by the 12-hour minimum... assuming they didn't use their engine for anchoring, maneuvering, etc...

B

#1018 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,674 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:29 PM

Amazing work on ADOR.

*** PURE UNINFORMED SPECULATION WARNING *****

We're seeing a lot of delam issues this race. Has there been a change in the layups this generation? I'm wondering if the boats have gotten a bit stiffer (different carbon, different heat/pressure, different glue / thickeners, different cores) and what were seeing is failures resulting from increased localized stresses? Maybe the builders made panels that are a bit stiffer than the engineers modeled... Is that even plausible?

#1019 CrushDigital

CrushDigital

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,820 posts
  • Location:New York, NY

Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:35 PM



Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


But how much weight do you need to make the boats more robust?

These boats are weighting 14t so if you increase the boat weight by say 2%, that's 280kg which is an awfull lot to strengthen the area between the bow and the mast. Will it make the boat slower? Yes Will we see the difference as spectators? Probably not as they will still sail very fast.

Having only 2 boats intact is really bad for the race, if there were say 4 slightly slower boats left in, the race would be far more interesting!


Personally, I would rather see an unnoticeably slower race between 4 or 6 heavier boats than a faster race between 2 boats. And I would rather see more boats racing unnoticeably slower in these conditions than faster in the doldrums. This being the Volvo, who watches the boats in the doldrums anyway and who cares if they are faster there? In short, maybe the bias of the race, meaning everything from design to route planning, should be more towards these kinds of conditions than the lighter stuff.


Yeah but you want is kind of opposed to what a team that want's to win wants. I gather that when looking at the route, designers saw how many times the boats would be transiting the doldrums as opposed to the single southern ocean leg and designed the boats to maximize the competitiveness in the predominant conditions of the race.

It would seem to me that that may have something to do with why the boats have been built the way they are. If the point structure or routing was different, we would see different boats but from a holistic standpoint, these boats make sense when you want to win the whole thing.

#1020 Speedwatch

Speedwatch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 515 posts
  • Location:Berlin - Germany

Posted 30 March 2012 - 06:50 PM

Now that's a story you can tell the grandkiddies.:(


1+

#1021 hump101

hump101

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 280 posts
  • Location:Brittany, France
  • Interests:Naval Architecture structural engineering, speedsailing, offshore racing

Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:28 PM




Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


But how much weight do you need to make the boats more robust?

These boats are weighting 14t so if you increase the boat weight by say 2%, that's 280kg which is an awfull lot to strengthen the area between the bow and the mast. Will it make the boat slower? Yes Will we see the difference as spectators? Probably not as they will still sail very fast.

Having only 2 boats intact is really bad for the race, if there were say 4 slightly slower boats left in, the race would be far more interesting!


Personally, I would rather see an unnoticeably slower race between 4 or 6 heavier boats than a faster race between 2 boats. And I would rather see more boats racing unnoticeably slower in these conditions than faster in the doldrums. This being the Volvo, who watches the boats in the doldrums anyway and who cares if they are faster there? In short, maybe the bias of the race, meaning everything from design to route planning, should be more towards these kinds of conditions than the lighter stuff.


Yeah but you want is kind of opposed to what a team that want's to win wants. I gather that when looking at the route, designers saw how many times the boats would be transiting the doldrums as opposed to the single southern ocean leg and designed the boats to maximize the competitiveness in the predominant conditions of the race.

It would seem to me that that may have something to do with why the boats have been built the way they are. If the point structure or routing was different, we would see different boats but from a holistic standpoint, these boats make sense when you want to win the whole thing.

Also, if you force a rule that makes the boats such that the less skilled can also race them, then you penalise the skilled and don't allow them to show their skills. There is already a race for those that want everyone together, the clipper. How many are glued to that tracker?

The JV, the Vendee, and the VOR are supposed to be the pinnacle of offshore racing in each catagory. I'd rather see a boat and a course that allows the very best to shine above the rest, in each area, by challenging the broadest range of skill to the limit. Otherwise we, and they, learn nothing from the experience.

#1022 dlangpap

dlangpap

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 156 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:31 PM




Personally I don't want to see a severe scantlings rule and heavy boats, I'd rather see fast boats and acts of great seamanship, as Groupama and Puma are exhibiting on this leg. It is no coincidence that the crews with the most experience of pushing fragile boats are doing so well, and the crews with only lots of old VOR experience, which is less relevant to this new reality, are suffering failures. They will learn, and I hope they are allowed to do so rather than the race being even further emasculated (ice gates, seriously? That should be a seamanship call too).


But how much weight do you need to make the boats more robust?

These boats are weighting 14t so if you increase the boat weight by say 2%, that's 280kg which is an awfull lot to strengthen the area between the bow and the mast. Will it make the boat slower? Yes Will we see the difference as spectators? Probably not as they will still sail very fast.

Having only 2 boats intact is really bad for the race, if there were say 4 slightly slower boats left in, the race would be far more interesting!


Personally, I would rather see an unnoticeably slower race between 4 or 6 heavier boats than a faster race between 2 boats. And I would rather see more boats racing unnoticeably slower in these conditions than faster in the doldrums. This being the Volvo, who watches the boats in the doldrums anyway and who cares if they are faster there? In short, maybe the bias of the race, meaning everything from design to route planning, should be more towards these kinds of conditions than the lighter stuff.


Yeah but you want is kind of opposed to what a team that want's to win wants. I gather that when looking at the route, designers saw how many times the boats would be transiting the doldrums as opposed to the single southern ocean leg and designed the boats to maximize the competitiveness in the predominant conditions of the race.

It would seem to me that that may have something to do with why the boats have been built the way they are. If the point structure or routing was different, we would see different boats but from a holistic standpoint, these boats make sense when you want to win the whole thing.


I agree, but it would be a matter of rules wouldn´t it? If all boats have to be a bit tougher per the rules, no one would have an advantage in the slow parts of the race but they would resist the tougher legs better. Again, personally, I would have preferred to see the whole fleet, or at least most of it, racing in the southern ocean a little bit slower than them sailing faster in the doldrums (which I actually see much less of or not at all). I am guessing the current leg is the most followed of all and that the slower ones draw much less attention. I mean, how many of us checked more than once a day when the boats were in that sewer that is the Malacca strait?

#1023 SemiSalt

SemiSalt

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,554 posts
  • Location:WLIS

Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:45 PM

I know the rules are pretty sophisticated, but history shows that it's not easy to get designers to put extra weight where you want them to put it.

#1024 Jammen

Jammen

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 321 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:53 PM

Looks like the speed of Tele is as they did not have any damage.
Lets hope Abu also will get up to speed.
Personaly I find this leg VERY interesting.
A cripled VO70 will beat a W60 any day...
Nice combintion of speed, tackticks and seamanship :-)

#1025 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,484 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:10 PM

Amazing work on ADOR.

Cheers to ADOR for a mid ocean "fix". I really hope it gets them to safety and that they do not miss another leg, due to repair and delay. A true fix is not easy. The cause is hard to speculate. It is not keel related. They have core shear failure, in an area where they really do not expect it. If they were in shipping lanes, one might believe the impact theory. I do not.

*** PURE UNINFORMED SPECULATION WARNING *****

duly noted!

We're seeing a lot of delam issues this race. Has there been a change in the layups this generation? I'm wondering if the boats have gotten a bit stiffer (different carbon, different heat/pressure, different glue / thickeners, different cores) and what were seeing is failures resulting from increased localized stresses? Maybe the builders made panels that are a bit stiffer than the engineers modeled... Is that even plausible?

Short answer, no. The heat and pressure are unchanged. Modulus allowed has not changed AFAIK. Core materials as other races. The panel weights are controlled. The rig weight, keel fin weight, bulb weight all controlled. So, de facto the hull weight is controlled as well. It comes down to the designer to distribute the material in the hull. Does anyone have an idea what is dramatically different in ADOR structural arrangement to other teams? I do not off hand.

#1026 starrchallenge

starrchallenge

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 100 posts
  • Location:Swampscott, Massachusetts
  • Interests:Still enjoy a nice Mount Gay after a fine day racing Yachts. More time at Sea the better.

Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:11 PM

Looks like the speed of Tele is as they did not have any damage.
Lets hope Abu also will get up to speed.
Personaly I find this leg VERY interesting.
A cripled VO70 will beat a W60 any day...
Nice combintion of speed, tackticks and seamanship :-)


"Breaking News" on the Volvo Race site is pretty accurate for the leg. Let's hope they can get at least 3 boats on the podium!

#1027 Schnick

Schnick

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,072 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:26 PM


Amazing work on ADOR.

Cheers to ADOR for a mid ocean "fix". I really hope it gets them to safety and that they do not miss another leg, due to repair and delay. A true fix is not easy. The cause is hard to speculate. It is not keel related. They have core shear failure, in an area where they really do not expect it. If they were in shipping lanes, one might believe the impact theory. I do not.

*** PURE UNINFORMED SPECULATION WARNING *****

duly noted!

We're seeing a lot of delam issues this race. Has there been a change in the layups this generation? I'm wondering if the boats have gotten a bit stiffer (different carbon, different heat/pressure, different glue / thickeners, different cores) and what were seeing is failures resulting from increased localized stresses? Maybe the builders made panels that are a bit stiffer than the engineers modeled... Is that even plausible?

Short answer, no. The heat and pressure are unchanged. Modulus allowed has not changed AFAIK. Core materials as other races. The panel weights are controlled. The rig weight, keel fin weight, bulb weight all controlled. So, de facto the hull weight is controlled as well. It comes down to the designer to distribute the material in the hull. Does anyone have an idea what is dramatically different in ADOR structural arrangement to other teams? I do not off hand.


I don't know tons about the hull structure but the Abu Dhabi boat,as well as Sanya, have much different decks from a structural point of view vs the other boats, which could encourage different flex characteristics. They have more of a hard spot in the structure at the front of the cockpit which is nearly amidships. It was right at the front of the cockpit that Telefonica Black (Sanya sistership) broke nearly in half last race, and that is not far from the area where A-D is seeing this failure now. I'm not educated enough to know if this is a coincidence, but I bet a yacht designer could comment.

#1028 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,674 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:09 PM

Short answer, no. The heat and pressure are unchanged. Modulus allowed has not changed AFAIK. Core materials as other races. The panel weights are controlled. ...


Thanks. Continuing to grasp at straws: I don't suppose they've mixed nano-carbon or something into the glue or in some other way managed to squeeze a bit less glue and a bit more carbon into the skins?

I'm just taking it for granted that the structures are more prone to failure this time around. But I wonder if that's really a given?

#1029 Schnick

Schnick

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,072 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, BC

Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:16 PM



Amazing work on ADOR.

Cheers to ADOR for a mid ocean "fix". I really hope it gets them to safety and that they do not miss another leg, due to repair and delay. A true fix is not easy. The cause is hard to speculate. It is not keel related. They have core shear failure, in an area where they really do not expect it. If they were in shipping lanes, one might believe the impact theory. I do not.

*** PURE UNINFORMED SPECULATION WARNING *****

duly noted!

We're seeing a lot of delam issues this race. Has there been a change in the layups this generation? I'm wondering if the boats have gotten a bit stiffer (different carbon, different heat/pressure, different glue / thickeners, different cores) and what were seeing is failures resulting from increased localized stresses? Maybe the builders made panels that are a bit stiffer than the engineers modeled... Is that even plausible?

Short answer, no. The heat and pressure are unchanged. Modulus allowed has not changed AFAIK. Core materials as other races. The panel weights are controlled. The rig weight, keel fin weight, bulb weight all controlled. So, de facto the hull weight is controlled as well. It comes down to the designer to distribute the material in the hull. Does anyone have an idea what is dramatically different in ADOR structural arrangement to other teams? I do not off hand.


I don't know tons about the hull structure but the Abu Dhabi boat,as well as Sanya, have much different decks from a structural point of view vs the other boats, which could encourage different flex characteristics. They have more of a hard spot in the structure at the front of the cockpit which is nearly amidships. It was right at the front of the cockpit that Telefonica Black (Sanya sistership) broke nearly in half last race, and that is not far from the area where A-D is seeing this failure now. I'm not educated enough to know if this is a coincidence, but I bet a yacht designer could comment.


http://www.yachtingworld.com/archive/extra/400799/telefonica-black

FYD here says the Tele Black damage started up high at hull/deck and extended down 2m or more around the bottom.

#1030 meowmeow

meowmeow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 395 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:24 PM

Interesting. PUMA and GROUPAMA are splitting course around Isla de los Estados

Surely, this crowd has some thoughts about the pros and cons of this decision-making?

#1031 Kenny Dumas

Kenny Dumas

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 668 posts
  • Location:Oregon

Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:34 PM

Looks like PUMA's bet is paying off so far. Big question is whether they get stuck in a hole but the tracker shows 27 knts and a boat speed of 14. Maybe they shortened sail a bit since it's probably pretty gusty in there? Go PUMA!

#1032 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:44 PM

But how much weight do you need to make the boats more robust?

These boats are weighting 14t so if you increase the boat weight by say 2%, that's 280kg which is an awfull lot to strengthen the area between the bow and the mast. Will it make the boat slower? Yes Will we see the difference as spectators? Probably not as they will still sail very fast.


This is a bit like asking how long is a string. If you KNEW what part of the structure was most vulnerable, it would take very little weight to fix it. I suspect that the 4 bow failures we have seen could have been prevented with less than 50 kgs of materials. The problem is that these solutions are only obvious in retrospect. If you just make everything stronger because you don't know what might fail, then the weight gain would be non-trivial. Every generation of the rule has tried to raise structural standard for the bits that broke last race. I am sure there will be new structural requirements for bows next race.

The ADOR failure is a bit harder to figure out since it is not part of a pattern. It will require an autopsy to try to determine what happened and if there are any lessons to learn that generalize to other boats. I don't remember ever seeing core failure or delamination in that section of a boat the was not the result of a collision (near max beam just above the static waterline).

#1033 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,976 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:49 PM

Looking back at the last race, there haven't been any reports of sail delams yet, the massive hull failures seem more limited (other than AD) to bow slamming issues, more masts fell down, no broken booms yet, no keel rams, etc., Probably evidence of learning from breaking, so perhaps the rule doesn't need major changes, some small tweaks, the sponsors and designers will want to learn from these lessons.

Big danger may be from popularity, stretching the race out too much, equinox to summer soon as the VOR becomes a tour de le monde. April 1st and Cape. Horn may not work.

Greenhalgh was driving AD hit 41, he's got a bit of experience, Nossiter was driving when they crash tacked ( crash when its all sanding then aback, for those who claim there ain't no such thing), he's got bit of experience. Injunction was avoid crash gybe, so they erred the other way. Would that have been enough to cause core sheer failure? You'd like to think not. Losing the chines may have weakened some panels, overall flexural pattern has been mentioned, pretty interesting c omment aboutnBlack and Bluenbeing sisterships.
http://www.yachtingw...0798/ericsson-4

#1034 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 10:53 PM

Yeah but you want is kind of opposed to what a team that want's to win wants. I gather that when looking at the route, designers saw how many times the boats would be transiting the doldrums as opposed to the single southern ocean leg and designed the boats to maximize the competitiveness in the predominant conditions of the race.

It would seem to me that that may have something to do with why the boats have been built the way they are. If the point structure or routing was different, we would see different boats but from a holistic standpoint, these boats make sense when you want to win the whole thing.


I think the doldrums idea would be plausible... except that the rule enforces minimum hull and structural weights (both overall and on by panel area). The designer/engineer cannot shave off weight to win the light-wind legs.

#1035 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:04 PM

I'm just taking it for granted that the structures are more prone to failure this time around. But I wonder if that's really a given?


Well, they have definitely failed more. It might be differences in the structural strength, but it could be other factors. They have had unusually bad weather for much of this race (The med, the S China Sea, the approach to NZ, and most of this leg so far have involved heavy weather sailing including beating into Gale force winds). They could be pushing the boats harder; it is hard to back off the throttle for long if the other boats don't, leading everyone to trash their boats. The boats might be marginally faster, increasing slamming. It could also be dumb luck; a coin can come up heads 2 times and then tails 2 times without anyone changing the coin.

#1036 Bmajor

Bmajor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 236 posts
  • Location:USA, Midwest

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

Looks like they are going to HOURLY UPDATES: :D

Race DataReport time: Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 22:04:20 UTC

Next report: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:15:00 UTC

#1037 Estar

Estar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,468 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:33 PM


Interesting. PUMA and GROUPAMA are splitting course around Isla de los Estados

Surely, this crowd has some thoughts about the pros and cons of this decision-making?


Unfortunately the tracker weather does not show enough detail to be able to see wind differences at close range. G4 might have chosen to go to the outside because they are faster away from the wind and PUMA, being the chasing boat, took a risk by sailing through a shortcut but tighter to the wind. However, I think the big decision will come later when they decide how to pass the Falklands. From the tracker wind prediction it looks windier on the inside track...



There are pretty decent currents running around Staten Island (up to about 8kts). Which way to go is often down to the timing of the current. It may be that Puma was just far enough behind to make the current calculation different. The wind can be quite fluky in the straits of le maire (between the island and the mainland).The global grib files are usually not very accurate right in there.

#1038 Panoramix

Panoramix

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Location:Rennes, Brittany, France

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:36 PM


Interesting. PUMA and GROUPAMA are splitting course around Isla de los Estados

Surely, this crowd has some thoughts about the pros and cons of this decision-making?


Unfortunately the tracker weather does not show enough detail to be able to see wind differences at close range. G4 might have chosen to go to the outside because they are faster away from the wind and PUMA, being the chasing boat, took a risk by sailing through a shortcut but tighter to the wind. However, I think the big decision will come later when they decide how to pass the Falklands. From the tracker wind prediction it looks windier on the inside track...


I have the feeling that puma decided to part company just after the 7pm sched and Cammas was too far away to cover him @10 pm... Well done Ken but will West pay?

#1039 smackdaddy

smackdaddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,753 posts

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:43 PM

Let's hope so. C'mon PUMA!!

Broken boats or no, this so beats the hell out of the AC.

#1040 Barman

Barman

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,981 posts
  • Location:Brissie
  • Interests:Two string kite rides
    Mining
    Transom jumping

Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:58 PM

Let's hope so. C'mon PUMA!!

Broken boats or no, this so beats the hell out of the AC.

I'll second that. Go G4 ;-)

#1041 dlangpap

dlangpap

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 156 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:00 AM

Interesting. PUMA and GROUPAMA are splitting course around Isla de los Estados

Surely, this crowd has some thoughts about the pros and cons of this decision-making?


Unfortunately the tracker weather does not show enough detail to be able to see wind differences at close range. G4 might have chosen to go to the outside because they are faster away from the wind and PUMA, being the chasing boat, took a risk by sailing through a shortcut but tighter to the wind. However, I think the big decision will come later when they decide how to pass the Falklands...

#1042 dlangpap

dlangpap

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 156 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:10 AM


Yeah but you want is kind of opposed to what a team that want's to win wants. I gather that when looking at the route, designers saw how many times the boats would be transiting the doldrums as opposed to the single southern ocean leg and designed the boats to maximize the competitiveness in the predominant conditions of the race.

It would seem to me that that may have something to do with why the boats have been built the way they are. If the point structure or routing was different, we would see different boats but from a holistic standpoint, these boats make sense when you want to win the whole thing.


I think the doldrums idea would be plausible... except that the rule enforces minimum hull and structural weights (both overall and on by panel area). The designer/engineer cannot shave off weight to win the light-wind legs.


I guess at the end of the day, and that was the point of my post, the organizers define the way the race is run and the teams and designers design around that based on the existing VOR rules. So if they decided to modify the rules a little bit to bias more exciting, heavier weather sailing (which is the most popular with spectators I recon) vs. less exciting, no-one-watches-anyway lighter weather sailing, it would be a win-win for spectators, teams and sponsors.

#1043 Tom O'Keefe

Tom O'Keefe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,006 posts
  • Location:San Clemente, California
  • Interests:Custom Plastic Injection Molding
    Hendo 30 Power Point
    Mac Gregor 65' Lean Machine
    Spencer 65' Rag Time
    SC 50 Horizon
    R/P 68' Tax Dancer
    R/P 86' Pyewacket

Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:11 AM

It looks like Puma will pickup pressure and gage over the next 24 hours. But, I would bet on the outside track around the Falklands. So, I'd work the left for the next 12 to18 hours and then reach down to get to the right.

#1044 Panoramix

Panoramix

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Location:Rennes, Brittany, France

Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:18 AM

Let's hope so West does not pay. C'mon PUMA Groupama!!


FTFY :ph34r:

#1045 Bmajor

Bmajor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 236 posts
  • Location:USA, Midwest

Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:35 AM

Looks like they are going to HOURLY UPDATES: :D

Race DataReport time: Fri, 30 Mar 2012, 22:04:20 UTC

Next report: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:15:00 UTC


Well, I guess not. As they have now changed it to 01:15 UTC. Clearly a VOR head fake and I went for it!

#1046 Tom O'Keefe

Tom O'Keefe

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,006 posts
  • Location:San Clemente, California
  • Interests:Custom Plastic Injection Molding
    Hendo 30 Power Point
    Mac Gregor 65' Lean Machine
    Spencer 65' Rag Time
    SC 50 Horizon
    R/P 68' Tax Dancer
    R/P 86' Pyewacket

Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:54 AM

If Puma is able to get going a couple knots faster they may squeak through a window on the inside. But, they've got to raise their averages.

#1047 SereneSpeed

SereneSpeed

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 410 posts
  • Location:Midland, Ontario
  • Interests:this stuff and other stuff

Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:24 AM

No fair! Groupama took a short-cut across land!

#1048 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:00 AM

It seems that Kenny has chosen to engage G4 in a tactical battle up the coast. G4 don't really have much option but to engage them.
I can't blame Puma for that choice, especially given their comparative experience.
Thomas Coville: "We'll respond to them by showing that we're capable of taking up a challenge and going faster than them"

#1049 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,021 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:09 AM

If Puma is able to get going a couple knots faster they may squeak through a window on the inside. But, they've got to raise their averages.


From what the weather indicates they may be headed for an 8 degree lift, which could pay some nice dividends over a distance.

#1050 MFMG

MFMG

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts
  • Location:Boise, Idaho USA
  • Interests:Cycling, Mountain Bike Racing, Photography

Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:30 AM

The drivel that's posted in this thread for the past several days has been hilarious. The post from TLS is a nice change to that trend. Noteably missing from that post is the fact that this is the latest seasonal Southern Ocean jaunt ever. There's less day light, the weather is colder and the air is denser, although they've perhaps not ventured sufficiently far south for that to be a major factor.

No one has every sailed in the deep south with boats as powerful or as strongly built as this fleet of 3rd generation V70s. The talk about designed-in fuses and improvements to crew protection on deck are lunacy. Every ounce of weight is applied to integrity and performance potential. The design parameters of appendages, hull, rigging and sails are optimized for balance - each component being designed to first comply with the Rule requirements and then designed to provide the best return on weight for the structural integrity offered and the highest performance potential.

The notion that a 2-year design cycle might not allow for sufficient FEA, is similarly off base. Hundreds of analysis are performed on components, assemblies and the entire design. The improvements in modeling tools and massively parallel computation solutions have completely changed what's possible over the last ~10 years. One might question the assumptions used for modeling - it's a bit surprising that there's been so much slamming-related failure but absolutely no canting-mechanism failure and that might suggest that too much weight is in the rams and bulkheads that accept those loads and the weight throughout the forward panels ought to have been moderately increased. Clearly the balance between the two is off a bit. If the V70 concept is used again in four years, I'd expect that we might see a modest increase in the minimum hull weight to give the designers an opportunity to do more about the slamming resistance.

The Volvo has had a remarkable safety record, mostly as a result of its remarkably conservative approach to scantlings, medical training, communication and safety-equipment requirements. It's that combination that allows unbelievably aggressive sailing in the worst conditions on earth. Talk that Camper pushed too hard is just silly. They were, as I recall, only ~20nm in first place, sailing a boat that's at best the same performance as the competition. Tucking in a reef or dropping from a C to a J would have lost that lead in one 3-hour sched. The Telefonica protest not withstanding, Camper needed a leg win to have a chance at winning the regatta and they're a frightfully competitive crew. No one remembers who finishes 2nd. No one who stood a single watch on Groupama would ever thing that Cammas was sailing conservatively - just take a look at the videos. If G4 has a delamination problem is everyone going to start ragging on Cammas given that Puma is only 50nm back? Please.

The V70 is a development class. Rather than slagging the organizers, crews, builders, architects and engineers who are making this remarkable entertainment possible, it might be better to give pause to the fact that this race, more than any other, has produced unbelievable depth of understanding of loads, stresses and capabilities of composite boat construction. The VOR is the toughest event in all of sailing if not all of sport. If you've got so much to offer it, why not sign on with a team? Otherwise, all this shooting from the hip on a couch is just silly.



#1051 nroose

nroose

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,554 posts
  • Location:Berkeley

Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:09 AM

Let's hope so. C'mon PUMA!!

Broken boats or no, this so beats the hell out of the AC.

I would agree, but I'm selfish, so only if there was a VOR stop in SF Bay!

#1052 Acuta

Acuta

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Location:Copenhagen harbour

Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:21 AM

Posted Image



Isn´t this cheating ? :P

#1053 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:42 AM

^natural development...
Australia II - winged keel
Groupama 4 - wheeled keel

#1054 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:17 AM

Presumably due to daylight savings we've had a 2hr sched instead of 3.
It's not a good one for Puma.
They've dropped 17nm to 53nm behind and I can't see any medium term positive their location to the west of G4.
The tracker is annoyingly not loading the +12hr and +18hr projections for me.
Tele have also done some 4x4 island hopping to find a quiet spot to suspend racing.

#1055 edelweis

edelweis

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 568 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:28 AM

Tele have also done some 4x4 island hopping to find a quiet spot to suspend racing.


So was there a shorecrew coming from Ushuaia to support repairs in Martial Bay?

#1056 umpire

umpire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,218 posts
  • Location:Edenbridge, UK

Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:13 AM


Tele have also done some 4x4 island hopping to find a quiet spot to suspend racing.


So was there a shorecrew coming from Ushuaia to support repairs in Martial Bay?


Support crew are there to assist with the repairs

Iker Martinez explains here http://www.teamtelef...APE-HORN/page/1

#1057 umpire

umpire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,218 posts
  • Location:Edenbridge, UK

Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:16 AM

More here from Tele website

At 06:15 UTC the boat skippered by Iker Martínez was already alongside the yacht transporting the Spanish shore contingent. In the end the actual meeting point was at Caleta Martial, a cove on the island of Herschel (Chile) which also forms part of the group of islands known as the Wollaston Islands, positioned just North of Cape Horn and within the cape's national park.

#1058 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

And the rubber band has now pulled the front two back together - just under 30nm.

#1059 Lynch

Lynch

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 114 posts
  • Location:Ireland
  • Interests:Sailing! Beer Wine Winning occasionally

Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:35 PM

Jesus, will any of these boats make it to Galway on their own. As far as I can tell only two are racing at the moment while the others have slowed down or stopped

#1060 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:40 PM

ADOR was right above the ice limit, at top speed, at night, when this delam happened. I doubt a container, but one of these could also ruin your day.

Posted Image

#1061 Riptide

Riptide

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 50 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:00 PM

ADOR was right above the ice limit, at top speed, at night, when this delam happened. I doubt a container, but one of these could also ruin your day.

Posted Image




They didn't hit anything other wise you would have seen significant damage on the out side of the hull which there was none if you look at the photos ... they prob stressed the hull to much from the loads at 40+ knots of boat speed in that area and the two layers of laminate separated from each other (De-Lamination).

And for fuck's sake if they hit an Ice Berg or a fucking container @15+ knots the would have had a hole in the boat and @40kts they would have ripped half the hull apart.... use some common sense people, also if you take the time to read the reports from Ian Walker you would read that they slowly started hearing noise coming from that area and then realized the iner and outer hull where separating (De- Lamination) not form any contact with floating debris weather ice or containers.

#1062 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

I was responding to someone talking about semi-submerged containers.

In the first "repair" video Greenhalgh mentions "We thought we had a strong boat, we had confidence in it, but last night one wave ended all that.", which doesn't sound like gradual failure to me. In one of the pictures there looks like some scratched paint, but who knows, could be nothing or could be spray.

The true cause will come out eventually. It's true the way he said it makes it sound like they lost confidence that they have a strong boat.

#1063 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,021 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:41 PM

And the rubber band has now pulled the front two back together - just under 30nm.


And now down to 17 miles with Puma charging along at 15.8 knots and Groupama at 11.5 knots.

A lot of flukey wind lies ahead.

#1064 JumpingJax

JumpingJax

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 595 posts
  • Location:East Coast US, Caribbean
  • Interests:Offshore passages, new landfalls

Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:49 PM

^natural development...
Australia II - winged keel
Groupama 4 - wheeled keel


Wheeled keel may be fine, as long as they don't hit a pothole.

#1065 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:31 PM

Wild guess prediction:

1. Puma
2. Telefonica
2. Camper
3. Abu Dhabi
4. Sanya
6. Groupama (ret.)

Groupama will be leading and break something major in the middle of nowhere, while pushing harder than anyone else. They will jam it to 11. Telefonica will sail conservatively, trying to cover both Camper and Puma to keep from getting too many points between them and Groupama. When Groupama breaks, they will cover Camper and let Puma go. Puma will go for broke and may be tough for Tele to handle anyway. Camper will also go for broke, will surge forward and fade back, but they won't manage the consistent performance of the other three boats. The way they sail just seems like they lack depth.

I just wrote the story for this leg, you don't have to watch now. ;-)

Or, it probably will work out competely differently!



Congrats to Groupama. I thought they would be the ones to blow it up, but they obviously had the exact right combination of brake and accelerator. Oh, and Puma too, but I predicted first place for them, so fingers crossed! It's very lucky for Telefonica and Groupama points-wise (I'm sure they are feeling badly for Camper and disappointed to miss that competition).

Question now is which boats will do the in-port and which will start Leg 6 on time? How the points will fall out. If Telefonica gets a podium after this they will be in very good position. I'm surprised they pressed so hard.

So put G4 back at the top of my list, but it ain't over yet!

#1066 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,484 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:58 PM


ADOR was right above the ice limit, at top speed, at night, when this delam happened. I doubt a container, but one of these could also ruin your day.

Posted Image




They didn't hit anything other wise you would have seen significant damage on the out side of the hull which there was none if you look at the photos ... they prob stressed the hull to much from the loads at 40+ knots of boat speed in that area and the two layers of laminate separated from each other (De-Lamination).

And for fuck's sake if they hit an Ice Berg or a fucking container @15+ knots the would have had a hole in the boat and @40kts they would have ripped half the hull apart.... use some common sense people, also if you take the time to read the reports from Ian Walker you would read that they slowly started hearing noise coming from that area and then realized the iner and outer hull where separating (De- Lamination) not form any contact with floating debris weather ice or containers.


From the description of the damage offeredby the sailors who are actually there, 0:16 in link, it sounds like core shear failure. I would note that the honeycomb (not foam) in that area has also a stiff/strong direction and a less stiff/strong (we could say soft/weak) direction. That panel would have the stiff strong likely going across the boat, the short dimension. It is a big panel with lots of curvature. The root cause of this failure is not known, but it could have been a collision along side that was not immediately visible, nor in a photograph. There is a hint of evidence in the direction of the damage and repair. Ice, perhaps, but seems doubtful. Could also have happened way earlier in the race and only progressed to a level that the crew heard when they took a few sleigh rides. Could have maybe been damage that was there from the beginning. I am not certain about what NDT would reveal with regards to the core condition, but any voids in the skins, such as interlaminar shear failure, shows up very easily in tests done ashore. Could also be at the joint of two honeycomb panels. There are seams, that is reality. Builders must join those with glue, but not so much as to either add excess weight, nor create jumps in stiffness.

#1067 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:01 PM

Posted Image



Isn´t this cheating ? :P



No, it's called "portage."

You have to pick-up the boat and carry it through bush and across rocks!

#1068 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,484 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:04 PM

To the horn

1 Groupama
2 Camper
3 Telefonica
4 Puma
5 ADOR
6 Sanya

To the finish

1 Puma
2 Telefonica
3 Groupama
4 ADOR
5 Camper
6 Sanya

And as there seems to be a wish to add some spice with "rig failure", "ret" or "this one goes to 11", the closest race will be for spots 3-4 and 4-5 with just hours separating the finishers.


Got first and third to the Horn right. Maybe 5th too.

For the finish, Tele is going to have to do some miracles to pass G4, but this order is not looking too bad. Who can repair faster in Chile?

#1069 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,314 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:25 PM

Regardless of the various changes which COULD be made in the future I think we can all agree that Puma and Groupama did a masterful job not only at racing though the southern ocean but also slowing down to keep their boat in 1 piece. Any schmuck can make a boat go fast, it takes true skill to know when to slow down. Sanya non-withstanding I think this leg has shown a good example of what happens when you don't ease off the gas pedal enough. Camper & Abu Dhabi were both pushing hard (one because they were 1000+ miles behind and the other because he's got GD berating him to do better) and it shows in the fact that they broke their boats and have had to seek help.

Additionally Tom Rich and the New England Boatworks team deserve high praise for building a boat that has, so far, had no structural issues despite the hard beating, running and reaching which has been doled out so far during this race. I would imagine that Kenny & the Puma team are supremely confident in their boat now that their rig issues have been sorted out and they should be. If it means the team can put the pedal down a little harder when it counts then that's the little extra difference the team needs to do well in this race. They'll be able to count on their ability to go hammer down in about 1000 miles in order to pass Groupama for the lead and that's huge.

#1070 IBro

IBro

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 63 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:26 PM

http://www.teamtelef...EG-AT-22-00-UTC

that is quick!

#1071 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,484 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:35 PM

http://www.teamtelef...EG-AT-22-00-UTC

that is quick!


There is something to be learned about where they repaired.
Attached File  306073_10150764436797437_137241232436_11394585_657950514_n1.jpg   79.17K   105 downloads
This seems to me to be port side between the L and the E in their paint job. That is fairly far aft, I think just in front of the dagger board, and not far from the chainplates. did we know that yet?

#1072 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,484 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:38 PM


http://www.teamtelef...EG-AT-22-00-UTC

that is quick!


There is something to be learned about where they repaired.
Attached File  306073_10150764436797437_137241232436_11394585_657950514_n1.jpg   79.17K   105 downloads
This seems to me to be port side between the L and the E in their paint job. That is fairly far aft, I think just in front of the dagger board, and not far from the chainplates. did we know that yet?


More here, they seem to be ahead of the mast.
Attached File  392492_10150764180042437_137241232436_11393693_125402521_n1.jpg   55.57K   55 downloads

#1073 forss

forss

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 455 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:47 PM

they are probably checking the whole hull with that (ultrasound) machine.

damaged area (i guess) :
Posted Image

#1074 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,314 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:50 PM

Racing suspended at 4:37 UTC and they're trying to be back in it at 22:00.

5+ hours longer than the 12 hours they were anticipating = 50 or more miles they lost to the leaders than anticipated.

#1075 Panoramix

Panoramix

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Location:Rennes, Brittany, France

Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:42 PM

Mmmh, Puma seems to have a speed advantage over Groupama in these conditions.

#1076 valor

valor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Location:USA

Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:31 PM

Tele resumed racing....

#1077 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,021 posts

Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:45 PM


Tele Buzzed by the Chilean Navy
Leg 5 Day 14

We only have a few hours left before we go into the pit lane. The boat is still going well, and in fact we're in front of the projected time for the stop. That's a good sign, because if we weren't going so well, we'd have to slow down a lot.

We've just had a pleasant communication with the Chilean navy. They have been in contact with us and we didn't know where they were. Well, it was a plane that spotted us. They passed very close to us and even took some photos from the plane! They asked us the typical questions: who we were, where we were going and stopping, the speed of the boat, etc, although I'm sure they had us well under control.

As Capey said yesterday, it seems we're going to pass the Cape at night. That's a shame for those of us who have never been there before, because we wanted a photo -- our first rounding of the mythical Cape Horn. We'll see what we can do to reflect the moment.




#1078 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:48 PM

Has the VOR tracker lost it's weather for anyone else?

#1079 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,021 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:07 AM

Working fine for me.

The wind data while scrolling over the individual boats periodically disappears, but it is back.

#1080 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

Working fine for me.

The wind data while scrolling over the individual boats periodically disappears, but it is back.


that's annoying - 2pcs and 2 browsers (each) later I've still got nuthin'.
First world problems...

#1081 spacecowboy

spacecowboy

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:16 AM

A note on sails... Apart from Sanya, who have done far less miles than any other team in the race, no one is using "traditional" laminated sails (film/fiber/film). All are using 3Di which has no film, thus no delam. Look into the 3Di process and you'll see what I mean.

North Sails also screwed up in the last race, changing their glues and 3DL process prior to the race, not to mention the Taffeta core 3DL sails that pretty much started to fall apart the instant sun hit them. There were also some surprise factors like a 400% increase in time spent in the tropics which of course everyone knew about, but no one had the time to test.

Anyways, 3Di is the way to go offshore. The only 3Di failures so far this race have been Camper with much lighter sails than other teams. Also secondary failures like Leg 4 when 4 out of 5 boats carrying 3Di sails broke the jib tack clip/line which resulted in sail breakages.



Looking back at the last race, there haven't been any reports of sail delams yet, the massive hull failures seem more limited (other than AD) to bow slamming issues, more masts fell down, no broken booms yet, no keel rams, etc., Probably evidence of learning from breaking, so perhaps the rule doesn't need major changes, some small tweaks, the sponsors and designers will want to learn from these lessons.

Big danger may be from popularity, stretching the race out too much, equinox to summer soon as the VOR becomes a tour de le monde. April 1st and Cape. Horn may not work.

Greenhalgh was driving AD hit 41, he's got a bit of experience, Nossiter was driving when they crash tacked ( crash when its all sanding then aback, for those who claim there ain't no such thing), he's got bit of experience. Injunction was avoid crash gybe, so they erred the other way. Would that have been enough to cause core sheer failure? You'd like to think not. Losing the chines may have weakened some panels, overall flexural pattern has been mentioned, pretty interesting c omment aboutnBlack and Bluenbeing sisterships.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/archive/extra/400798/ericsson-4



#1082 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,314 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:38 AM

Puma have moved to within 2.4 miles of the lead while Tele has dropped back another mile.

Go the big, black, pussy!!!

#1083 SW Sailor

SW Sailor

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,021 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:48 AM

And it looks like they are about 60 miles from a divergent wind pattern. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

#1084 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:34 AM

G4 was really slow, comparatively, getting out of Auckland.
I wondered at the time if they'd changed something to favour running in the SO.

#1085 crashtestdummy

crashtestdummy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 404 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:35 AM

Puma have moved to within 2.4 miles of the lead while Tele has dropped back another mile.

Go the big, black, pussy!!!

wes, you are a piece of shit college dick..stop acting like you are a know all

#1086 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,314 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:24 AM


Puma have moved to within 2.4 miles of the lead while Tele has dropped back another mile.

Go the big, black, pussy!!!

wes, you are a piece of shit college dick..stop acting like you are a know all


If being able to read and then reiterate a sched makes me a knowitall then... well fuck... I guess I am.

Some people aren't cut out to PUI. Methinks you're one of them... but that's just my knowitall opinion Posted Image

And remind me where we've met that you were able to develop such an opinion of me? Have I personally offended you directly?

#1087 Te Kooti

Te Kooti

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,436 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:13 AM

Puma leading Groupama

#1088 Terrafirma

Terrafirma

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,528 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:56 AM

Puma leading Groupama


Yeah looks like it has died off and Puma have the better angle as well as a little more speed. Close racing..

#1089 chic014

chic014

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 162 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:11 AM

off the latest camper blog it also says Abu Dhabi are also stopping in Porto Montt. Not sure if that was supposed to be made public yet.

"Word also came in today that Abu Dhabi will be joining us in Porto Montt, however we are uncertain if they plan to put Azzam on a ship or are quietly plotting a sneak shore team assault to fix their damage and be on their way before us."

#1090 harzak

harzak

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 566 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:36 AM

off the latest camper blog it also says Abu Dhabi are also stopping in Porto Montt. Not sure if that was supposed to be made public yet.

"Word also came in today that Abu Dhabi will be joining us in Porto Montt, however we are uncertain if they plan to put Azzam on a ship or are quietly plotting a sneak shore team assault to fix their damage and be on their way before us."

Payback for Abu Dhabi revealing they were on stand-by to help Camper earlier? Great info anyway!

#1091 IBro

IBro

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 63 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:37 AM


Puma leading Groupama


Yeah looks like it has died off and Puma have the better angle as well as a little more speed. Close racing..


25nm between them. I would say that G4 repositions itself to the west, for some more reaching/downwind conditions.




#1092 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 993 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:48 AM

Bwaaaaa!!:lol:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/401231

#1093 umpire

umpire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,218 posts
  • Location:Edenbridge, UK

Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:57 AM

off the latest camper blog it also says Abu Dhabi are also stopping in Porto Montt. Not sure if that was supposed to be made public yet.

"Word also came in today that Abu Dhabi will be joining us in Porto Montt, however we are uncertain if they plan to put Azzam on a ship or are quietly plotting a sneak shore team assault to fix their damage and be on their way before us."


Just posted that question on their blog, not sure if I will get answer!

#1094 umpire

umpire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,218 posts
  • Location:Edenbridge, UK

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:01 AM

Bwaaaaa!!:lol:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/401231


Did he really say that he took the reef out by himself!!

#1095 Terrorvision

Terrorvision

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,843 posts
  • Interests:Taking 'the' out of Psychotherapist

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:20 AM


Bwaaaaa!!:lol:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/401231


Did he really say that he took the reef out by himself!!


Check your calendar......

#1096 moody frog

moody frog

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,665 posts
  • Location:Brittany

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:21 AM


Bwaaaaa!!:lol:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/401231


Did he really say that he took the reef out by himself!!


Yes ! and the 2nd solo-watch helmsman says in french that these boats are very "safe", tracking along "straight" without much helm problem, much less physical than an Imoca 60 he says !

#1097 nixon

nixon

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 207 posts

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:37 AM

Calling Expedition... Calling Paradox... Calling all ships with the right software and the polars...

I'd love to see some optimal course up the coast of South America for theses guys... Maybe an East and West solution... Pretty please. :)

#1098 umpire

umpire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,218 posts
  • Location:Edenbridge, UK

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:51 AM



Bwaaaaa!!:lol:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/401231


Did he really say that he took the reef out by himself!!


Check your calendar......


Oooops

#1099 Panoramix

Panoramix

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Location:Rennes, Brittany, France

Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:03 AM



Bwaaaaa!!:lol:
http://new.livestrea...5/videos/401231


Did he really say that he took the reef out by himself!!


Yes ! and the 2nd solo-watch helmsman says in french that these boats are very "safe", tracking along "straight" without much helm problem, much less physical than an Imoca 60 he says !


I am feeling bad when I hold the sheet of a 30 footer with my teeth (and try to avoid doint it with any boat but a dinghy), Charles is doing so with a 70 footer!

It is impressive how stable the boat is and I had never realised that these boats were so well mannered.

#1100 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

Swanno (Ohf Shore)

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,782 posts
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:13 AM


Puma have moved to within 2.4 miles of the lead while Tele has dropped back another mile.

Go the big, black, pussy!!!

wes, you are a piece of shit college dick..stop acting like you are a know all


Did you drop your cup of meds?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users