Jump to content


VOR Leg 5


  • Please log in to reply
2146 replies to this topic

#1 Carboninit

Carboninit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,198 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:30 AM

Who do you fancy to take the leg ,im going for Abu

#2 clamslapper

clamslapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:50 AM

Who do you fancy to take the leg ,im going for Abu



Ya right, those guys are fucking good.

#3 gybe-ho!

gybe-ho!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,359 posts
  • Location:Curled up in the lee of Bum Island

Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:00 AM


Who do you fancy to take the leg ,im going for Abu



Ya right, those guys are fucking good.


Yeah, just ask 'em!

#4 Carboninit

Carboninit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,198 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:58 AM

Yeah and they are doing it you pricks are not and never will. Will the 24 hour fall or will it be a case of backing off the speed?

#5 gybe-ho!

gybe-ho!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,359 posts
  • Location:Curled up in the lee of Bum Island

Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:29 PM

Yeah and they are doing it you pricks are not and never will. Will the 24 hour fall or will it be a case of backing off the speed?


Who pissed in your wheaties?

Personally would love to see Puma grab the race by the scruff of the neck, but you can't bet against Groupama and Telefonica. Will Camper come out of homebase all fired up...hmm, dunno but you'd think that the ass chewing behind closed doors has got to take effect.

All opinions Fella, everyone has one, just like assholes.

#6 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

Swanno (Ohf Shore)

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,781 posts
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:53 PM

Groupama or Puma. I think Camper may do a bit better on this one too. Sanya to bring up the rear unless they pull something impressive like go the outside of the Falklands like Brunel did all those years ago. I thing Abba Dabba is the biggest lemon out there out of the new boats.

#7 Carboninit

Carboninit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,198 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 12:59 PM

Who pissed in your wheaties? No one ,at least I dont think anyone has. Looking forward to this leg unfolding and see what speeds the yachts can do maxed out.

#8 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:22 PM

Two biggest factors will likely be how the fleet start times with the weather conditions and breakage. Any boat that falls off the back of the lead boats weather system is out. That favors boat speed over tactics, especially if they have ice gates, and catching the first system is key.

The rich will get richer, and even the start will be important.

So my wild speculation is that without breakage, this race will probably be as close as the last one. Groupama, Telefonica and Puma have a very slight edge over Camper (consistency, not boat-speed related), which has a slight edge over AD (lots of issues, no proven performance on long legs), which has a slight advantage over Sanya (old boat, low budget, lack sailing depth). But that is without breakage, which probably will effect most boats to one level or another.

#9 oioi

oioi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 569 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

id love to see abu dhabi go well. Not sure they will tho...



Any idea if some of the crews are being swapped out? They wont have had time to physically recover from the last leg, and there has to be an advantage with a couple of fresh bodies on board? Perhaps that upsets the team dynamic too much?

#10 the loose cannon

the loose cannon

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 641 posts
  • Location:Planet Earth

Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:27 PM

based on the BPV record trip there is still a lot of ice out there. That may put gates in and put paid to all the research that the teams did in designing the boats (cant run fast and deep, then you can't do what you boat is designed to.) I am excited for this leg, and still anxious for the teams, as one day (hopefully not anytime soon) somebody is going to smack into an ice cube at 30kts and people are going to be swimming.

But I guess that is what this whole thing is about - adventure.

I hope for their sakes that Camper and ADOR get to show their stuff on this leg.

#11 The Main Man

The Main Man

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 531 posts
  • Location:Blighty

Posted 13 March 2012 - 01:43 PM

Come on Abu Dhabi - your time is now... ! :rolleyes:

#12 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

Just hit my inbox:

ABU DHABI OCEAN RACING FIRED UP AHEAD OF ICY SOUTHERN OCEAN CROSSING
Skipper Confident of Good ‘Downwind’ Showing in Testing Volvo Ocean Race Leg 5


Auckland New Zealand, 13th February 2012: Ian Walker, skipper of Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing - the United Arab Emirates capital’s Volvo Ocean Race contesting outfit - is confident his 11-strong crew can push for podium honours in Leg 5 of the race to Itaji, Brazil next weekend, as the team looks to get its campaign back on track after a tough first half to the ‘Everest of Sailing’.

Featuring the classic Southern Ocean high speed sleigh-ride sailing for which the Volvo Ocean Race is renowned, Leg 5 - which starts from Auckland, New Zealand on 18th March - is the longest passage in the race and throws up a new set of challenges for the six-strong fleet including sub-zero temperatures, the threat of yacht-crippling icebergs and howling arctic seas.

Yet according to 43-year-old Olympian Walker, the Abu Dhabi Tourism & Culture Authority-backed team is relishing getting its state-of-the-art race yacht, Azzam (determination), back into the water as much of the leg will feature the outfit’s much preferred downwind sailing.

“We are optimistic ahead of the next leg; we under no illusions that it will be extremely difficult but it is also downwind, and that is where our strengths hopefully lie. We've still not really gone downwind, let's face it. Telefónica look like the gun boat but everyone's going to have their weaknesses at different times. We've got to hope. We've done six weeks sailing in this race so far and I think four and a half have been upwind. We have to get the spinnakers up and maybe it will be a different story. You just have to keep believing, keep trying your best and good things will happen," said the British father-of-two.

The notorious Southern Ocean crossing has been a mainstay in the 39-year-old event’s reputation as one of the planet’s toughest endurance competitions. Race-imposed safety waypoints should keep the fleet north of the main areas of iceberg risk, but extreme Southern Ocean conditions will test the nerve, skill and stamina of the crews to their limits.

The course initially takes the fleet from Auckland northwest across the Southern Ocean to the tip of South America at Cape Horn. From there the boats must cross the South Atlantic, avoiding the Falkland Islands on the way to the finish in Brazil.

And Walker believes that for many of the younger Abu Dhabi crew members making their global race debuts, including Emirati Adil Khalid, the first Gulf national to ever compete in the event, the rounding of Cape Horn – the legendary sailing pinnacle off South America - will be a moment to cherish.

“The next leg is already on everybody’s mind. You have to keep your wits about you, it can be very dangerous but exhilarating at the same time, it really is classic Volvo Ocean Race. For the first-timers, rounding Cape Horn will be a highlight; it’s the sailor’s equivalent of climbing Mount Everest. It’s just a shame we didn’t have longer in Auckland for the stopover, it is very short so we don’t have enough time to get up to full strength but it’s the same for everyone, we’re all in the same boat,” added double Olympic medallist, Walker.

Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing, which currently sits fifth in the overall Volvo Ocean Race standings, is looking to continue its impressive in-port race run of form on 17th March for the Auckland showpiece, before starting Leg 5 the day after. The team – the most intercontinental to feature in the Volvo Ocean Race - has won two of the last four in-port races, including a historic home victory in the UAE capital.

The Auckland In-Port Race will be televised live at 5am UAE time (0200 UTC) and will be streamed live at www.volvooceanrace.com and www.livestream.com/volvooceanrace. Coverage will start 15 minutes prior to the race start.


#13 Sailor90

Sailor90

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,936 posts
  • Location:PNW
  • Interests:A Scow racer, Melges 24's, Laser, and big boats in Chicago.

Posted 13 March 2012 - 02:19 PM

Come on Puma! Show the Southern Ocean what you've got!

#14 BrownTrout

BrownTrout

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 101 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:08 PM

I am hoping that this leg has the right sailing angles for Adu Dhabi. The boat obviously sucks upwind. Lets see what it can do. if the mast stays up...if

#15 umpire

umpire

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,179 posts
  • Location:Edenbridge, UK

Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:13 PM

[quote name='Sailor90' timestamp='1331648398' post='3623940']
Come on Puma! Show the Southern Ocean what you've got!
[/quo


Probaly not a lot.!


You asked for it!!

#16 Kenny Dumas

Kenny Dumas

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 662 posts
  • Location:Oregon

Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:38 PM

Any ideas on how much reconfiguration is going on for this leg? Mostly downwind could benefit from different boards, sail selection, stronger standing rigging, rudder foils etc.

#17 Potter

Potter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 981 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 04:55 PM

If it is a classic Volvo Southern Ocean leg I think the foreward volume of Abu Hamble will help. So I will go with Abu DHabi and Groupama (never discount the French in the SOuthern Ocean).

However I think we will see less Southern Ocean running due to ice. In which case Telefonica and Camper.

#18 harzak

harzak

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 566 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:11 PM

Wild guess:

Groupama
Abu Dhabi
Telefonica
Puma
Camper
Sanya

:)

#19 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:25 PM

Camper
Puma
Tele
Gpama
AD
Sanya

#20 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,199 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 05:31 PM

That article from ADOR sounds to me like this; "we haven't been fast in any of the conditions we've seen so far so we hope that it turns out we have speed in the one type of sailing we haven't done much of."

Very convenient excuse for being off the pace wouldn't you say?

Any ideas on how much reconfiguration is going on for this leg? Mostly downwind could benefit from different boards, sail selection, stronger standing rigging, rudder foils etc.


Changing out boards, rudders, etc costs you in points so I doubt that any of the appendages will change.

Camper
Puma
Tele
Gpama
AD
Sanya


This.

#21 kokopelli

kokopelli

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 613 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 06:05 PM

"Just hit my inbox:

ABU DHABI OCEAN RACING FIRED UP AHEAD OF ICY SOUTHERN OCEAN CROSSING
Skipper Confident of Good ‘Downwind’ Showing in Testing Volvo Ocean Race Leg 5


Auckland New Zealand, 13th February 2012: Ian Walker, skipper of Abu Dhabi Ocean Racing -"

I assume this was issued March 13?


"The course initially takes the fleet from Auckland northwest across the Southern Ocean to the tip of South America at Cape Horn. From there the boats must cross the South Atlantic, avoiding the Falkland Islands on the way to the finish in Brazil."

I hope the boys on board AD have a better sense of geography and attention to details than their PR department.

What garbage!


#22 JL92S

JL92S

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 560 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 08:47 PM

i think of all the legs in the race this leg and the leg across the atlantic should be abu dhabi's favourable weather. possibly the leg into galway as well.

#23 Moonduster

Moonduster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,353 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:14 PM

Hook, you said "Changing out boards, rudders, etc costs you in points so I doubt that any of the appendages will change."

Care to quote chapter and verse from the rule or the SIs on that? To the best of my knowledge, it's pure rubbish. There's no points-based penalties that I'm aware of other than the jury's ability to, essentially, do what they want should rule violations occur.

There are limits to the number of booms and masts, as there are to the number of sails. There are no limits to the number of rudders or daggerboards that can be built. However, changing boards, rudders, keel fins, keel bulbs (and booms and masts, for that matter) all invalidate the measurement certificate and require remeasuring.

#24 Left Hook

Left Hook

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,199 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:27 PM

Hook, you said "Changing out boards, rudders, etc costs you in points so I doubt that any of the appendages will change."

Care to quote chapter and verse from the rule or the SIs on that? To the best of my knowledge, it's pure rubbish. There's no points-based penalties that I'm aware of other than the jury's ability to, essentially, do what they want should rule violations occur.

There are limits to the number of booms and masts, as there are to the number of sails. There are no limits to the number of rudders or daggerboards that can be built. However, changing boards, rudders, keel fins, keel bulbs (and booms and masts, for that matter) all invalidate the measurement certificate and require remeasuring.


I'm not in the mood to dive into SI's right now but I can tell you that when Tele Blue and Black swapped out rudders the last time around they both incurred penalties for doing so.

#25 swe727

swe727

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 46 posts
  • Location:sweden
  • Interests:racing and shorthanded sailing.

Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:33 PM


Hook, you said "Changing out boards, rudders, etc costs you in points so I doubt that any of the appendages will change."

Care to quote chapter and verse from the rule or the SIs on that? To the best of my knowledge, it's pure rubbish. There's no points-based penalties that I'm aware of other than the jury's ability to, essentially, do what they want should rule violations occur.

There are limits to the number of booms and masts, as there are to the number of sails. There are no limits to the number of rudders or daggerboards that can be built. However, changing boards, rudders, keel fins, keel bulbs (and booms and masts, for that matter) all invalidate the measurement certificate and require remeasuring.


I'm not in the mood to dive into SI's right now but I can tell you that when Tele Blue and Black swapped out rudders the last time around they both incurred penalties for doing so.


from the notice of race


5.6.5
From the time a Boat has been issued its first Volvo Open 70 v.3 Class Certificate for the
Race: any declared Appendage shall not be changed and its position, plan form and section
shape or weight shall not be intentionally changed. However in the event an Appendage is
damaged or broken the Appendage may be replaced with another Appendage that in plan
form and section shape is a like for like of the damaged or broken declared Appendage.

#26 jc172528

jc172528

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,969 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 09:53 PM

Camper
G4
Puma
Sanya
Abu
Tele (rig failure)

#27 haligonian winterr

haligonian winterr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 664 posts
  • Location:Halifax, NS
  • Interests:Going Fast.

Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:19 PM

Just thinking about Camper's keel/board configuration, with the keel in front of the mast seems like it would create a pretty bow-down attitude.

I know nothing about Southern Ocean running, but it seems weight forward wouldn't exactly be a good thing for planing and putting your bow into 20ft waves.

Could affect speed, handling, safety, risk of pitchpole/crash gybe, no idea.

HW

#28 Rohanoz

Rohanoz

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,490 posts
  • Location:Australian East Coast
  • Interests:A bad day sailing is still better than a good day at work.

Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:25 PM

And, we all forget the 'dog' Abba Dabba won in its home town...
Horses for courses?

#29 clamslapper

clamslapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 13 March 2012 - 10:46 PM

Camper
G4
Puma
Sanya
Abu
Tele (rig failure)




Ya right. And pigs fly.

#30 jc172528

jc172528

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,969 posts

Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:04 PM


Camper
G4
Puma
Sanya
Abu
Tele (rig failure)




Ya right. And pigs fly.


Noted.
Now lets have your prediction Turkey slapper.

#31 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:06 PM

There are no limits to the number of rudders or daggerboards that can be built. However, changing boards, rudders, keel fins, keel bulbs (and booms and masts, for that matter) all invalidate the measurement certificate and require remeasuring.


No one spouts inaccuracies with quite your force or confidence. Well done.

#32 clamslapper

clamslapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:13 PM



Camper
G4
Puma
Sanya
Abu
Tele (rig failure)




Ya right. And pigs fly.


Noted.
Now lets have your prediction Turkey slapper.




I would say:

G4
Tele
Puma
Camper
ADOR
Sanya

I am with you though about T's rig. As I understand it, broad reaching in huge waves is more violent on rigs than just about anything else. If theirs is compromised in the least due to wear, this isn't the leg to try to make do. The stakes of a failure are very sobering.

#33 Icedtea

Icedtea

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,148 posts
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 13 March 2012 - 11:20 PM

I'm gonna go for Groupama, one of the reasons being I want this thing to be a race :L
Also think Abu could come good...

And somewhere I read the idea behind Camper's keep position was to make her easier to steer in waves??

#34 clamslapper

clamslapper

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:03 AM

I'm gonna go for Groupama, one of the reasons being I want this thing to be a race :L
Also think Abu could come good...

And somewhere I read the idea behind Camper's keel position was to make her easier to steer in waves??



Do you mean the keel, or the boards? Not sure the keel, as such, affects steering all that much, since it's almost parallel to the surface of the water a lot of the time. Camper's keel is forward, but its boards are way aft, so probably that does help. Seems to me the more forward they are the more the boat might have a tendency to trip over them.

Heck, maybe Camper will blast over to Cape Horn like a raped ape. I am guessing this Botin fellow knows a thing or two about a thing or two. Only one way to find out. Of course in a giant swell the helmsman is a gigantic factor too.

#35 DtM

DtM

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,270 posts
  • Location:Out of the Office

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:19 AM

Can anyone tell us whether other teams changed their rigging in Auckland. Tele have issued a press release but was everyone scheduled to swap rigging out?

#36 Moonduster

Moonduster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,353 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:36 AM

Clean,

I'm always surprised to see that you can read - you certainly can't write. Care to point out my inaccuracies? I'd be happy to stand corrected.

Or is it your goal to just take a few cheap shots, offer nothing and then scurry away like clamslapper and the rest of the scourge that seem to have taken over here?

#37 hiroller

hiroller

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 461 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:05 AM

There is no doubt that the Juan K boats are fast on a reach.
In the latest Seahorse magazine, Moose writes that he thinks that Juan K has found something special with the reaching performance.
However, both Camper and ADOR have been fast downwind. In particular, ADOR sailed straight past GPMA on the run to the finish in the Fastnet race. Camper is also fast upwind but not enough to make up the difference reaching.

The big question is how much running conditions will we get in the rest of the race.
Normally they would have expected up to a weeks worth of trade winds either side of the equator in Leg 1 and 4 or 5 days worth at the start of Leg 2, and the whole way for Leg 5 and also across the Atlantic.
However, so far there has been very little. It's all been upwind and reaching.
This is excellent planning from the Juan K boats - or very lucky.
Leg 1 got 1 in 20 year conditions. Tele and Camper got about 1 days worth at the end of Leg 1. GPMA got almost none and the others never made it. Leg 2 would have expected up to week of downwind out of Cape Town.
All the boats got since Leg 1 are a few hours worth down the NZ coast from Sanya.
If they add ice gates to Leg 5, it could be race over for the non-Juan K boats other than a cameo across the Atlantic.
Leg 6 in particular is traditionally reaching in trade winds most of the way.

#38 jc172528

jc172528

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,969 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:26 AM

There is no doubt that the Juan K boats are fast on a reach.
In the latest Seahorse magazine, Moose writes that he thinks that Juan K has found something special with the reaching performance.
However, both Camper and ADOR have been fast downwind. In particular, ADOR sailed straight past GPMA on the run to the finish in the Fastnet race. Camper is also fast upwind but not enough to make up the difference reaching.

The big question is how much running conditions will we get in the rest of the race.
Normally they would have expected up to a weeks worth of trade winds either side of the equator in Leg 1 and 4 or 5 days worth at the start of Leg 2, and the whole way for Leg 5 and also across the Atlantic.
However, so far there has been very little. It's all been upwind and reaching.
This is excellent planning from the Juan K boats - or very lucky.
Leg 1 got 1 in 20 year conditions. Tele and Camper got about 1 days worth at the end of Leg 1. GPMA got almost none and the others never made it. Leg 2 would have expected up to week of downwind out of Cape Town.
All the boats got since Leg 1 are a few hours worth down the NZ coast from Sanya.
If they add ice gates to Leg 5, it could be race over for the non-Juan K boats other than a cameo across the Atlantic.
Leg 6 in particular is traditionally reaching in trade winds most of the way.


I think a lot depends on how far north the ice gates are located.
The further south they are the better for Camper.

ADOR definitely look quick at times but Walker doesn't seem all that on it.

#39 Moonduster

Moonduster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,353 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:34 AM

Replacement, alteration or repair of any component that may affect measurement must be reported to the MG, who may elect to remeasure. And certainly for boards, rudders, keel fins or bulbs, they will remeasure. See VOR70 v3.2 section 2.6.4

A new certificate will not be granted if the replacements are not like-for-like with the exception of boards and rudders of which two different basic shapes are allowed, provided each shape measures in and no alteration of the boat is necessary to accomodate those appendages.

That notwithstanding, there is no limit on the number of boards, rudders, keel fins or keel bulbs that may be built. Look at NOR 5.6.2.

I'm not aware of Groupama moving the attachment point of their bulb on their keel fin. But I don't believe that would be illegal, especially if, for example, the keel fin had slots for the keel bolts and the repositioning could be accomplished by loosening, shifting and retightening the bolts. Hard to believe their design made allowances for such, but it's possible.

#40 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,589 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:39 AM

Edit: this is the NOR I looked at http://noticeboard.v...Race_200112.pdf

Edit2: Removed the prior thought because I'm not exactly sure what the fight is over. I think rule 5.6 of the NOR limits the boat once issued a cert to only like for like changes in appendages, no?

#41 smackdaddy

smackdaddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,736 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 02:53 AM

Clean,

I'm always surprised to see that you can read - you certainly can't write. Care to point out my inaccuracies? I'd be happy to stand corrected.

Or is it your goal to just take a few cheap shots, offer nothing and then scurry away like clamslapper and the rest of the scourge that seem to have taken over here?


Wait - what happened to Clean's rule post? Did he get pwnd and pull it?

#42 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:21 AM

http://www.waterfron...ery/Webcam.aspx
Only Sanya yet to get back in the water.
I can't see Tele, but G4 is apparently out and about on the water somewhere.

#43 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:07 AM

Wild guess prediction:

1. Puma
2. Telefonica
2. Camper
3. Abu Dhabi
4. Sanya
6. Groupama (ret.)

Groupama will be leading and break something major in the middle of nowhere, while pushing harder than anyone else. They will jam it to 11. Telefonica will sail conservatively, trying to cover both Camper and Puma to keep from getting too many points between them and Groupama. When Groupama breaks, they will cover Camper and let Puma go. Puma will go for broke and may be tough for Tele to handle anyway. Camper will also go for broke, will surge forward and fade back, but they won't manage the consistent performance of the other three boats. The way they sail just seems like they lack depth.

I just wrote the story for this leg, you don't have to watch now. ;-)

Or, it probably will work out competely differently!

#44 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:24 AM

Cool story bro
(no...really)

You forgot to mention who goes to Groupama's aid when they break something.
ADOR hold the record for minor breakages thus far don't they?

#45 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:49 AM

Cool story bro
(no...really)

You forgot to mention who goes to Groupama's aid when they break something.
ADOR hold the record for minor breakages thus far don't they?


Ha ha! Yeah, who wins on the redress?

#46 Terrorvision

Terrorvision

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,832 posts
  • Interests:Taking 'the' out of Psychotherapist

Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:25 AM

Someone I've never heard of replaces someone else I've never heard of on Puma!

Olympic gold medallist Johanson to replace injured PUMA helmsman Harrap

Johanson, one of Finland’s most experienced sailors, raced on board Ericsson 3 in the 2008-09 Volvo Ocean Race and has represented his country at the Olympics on three occasions, winning gold in the 49er class at the Sydney Games in 2000.

New Zealander Harrap was forced out of Leg 5 with carpal tunnel syndrome in both arms as well as bursitis in his elbow, but will still sail with the crew for Saturday’s In-Port Race.

The rest

#47 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:51 AM

Is Tony Rae (Camper, rib damage) getting back on board for this leg?

#48 oioi

oioi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 569 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:01 AM

whats cool about this race, is that there is good debate about who is going to win the next leg after 4 legs. We have three very strong campaigns (in the Juan K boats), 2 campaigns that can be on the pace, but the weather window seems to narrow, and one also ran (who may do something by radical tactics). Its very close, very entertaining and im looking forward to the restart. For me, any of the 6 boats could podium (unlikely for sanya, but they could do an E3 on the next leg), and I really dont who is going to come out well.

#49 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:22 AM

I expect G4 and Puma to stick to Tele like glue until an opening presents itself.
I'm interested to see the open ocean performance of Camper and ADOR down wind but I'm yet to be convinced they have enough of an advantage against the other 3 to be able to forge a break.
If they do have an advantage in the deeper and rougher stuff then there might be a tactical split.
More than likely though 5 reasonably matched boats will hang together until tactical mistakes/breakages happen.

#50 mario147

mario147

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 35 posts
  • Location:Spain
  • Interests:Sail
    Bikes
    Mountain

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:23 AM

1 Tele
2 .. 6 I don't care

Just joking but it's funny by your predictions noone gives Tele a possibilty... Whishful thinking? :lol:

#51 Who's your daddy

Who's your daddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:40 AM


Clean,

I'm always surprised to see that you can read - you certainly can't write. Care to point out my inaccuracies? I'd be happy to stand corrected.

Or is it your goal to just take a few cheap shots, offer nothing and then scurry away like clamslapper and the rest of the scourge that seem to have taken over here?


Wait - what happened to Clean's rule post? Did he get pwnd and pull it?

NOR 5.5.5 is pretty clear, and Clean is right. 2 different designs can be built for testing, but once the race starts they have to stick with one design. Changing it's position or angle etc is considered a change and is not permitted.

5.5.5 From the time a Boat has been issued its first Volvo Open 70 v.3 Class Certificate for the
Race: any declared Appendage shall not be changed and its position, plan form and section
shape or weight shall not be intentionally changed. However in the event an Appendage is
damaged or broken the Appendage may be replaced with another Appendage that in plan
form and section shape is a like for like of the damaged or broken declared Appendage.

#52 gybe-ho!

gybe-ho!

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,359 posts
  • Location:Curled up in the lee of Bum Island

Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

Can anyone tell us whether other teams changed their rigging in Auckland. Tele have issued a press release but was everyone scheduled to swap rigging out?


Yeah, Puma have done some rigging replacement.

Here (from the VOR Site)


PUMA Ocean Racing powered by BERG were the first to be craned back into the water from their cradle in Auckland’s Viaduct Harbour on Wednesday morning, followed by Team Telefónica.

A later-than-expected arrival into Auckland, combined with a short stopover, left the crews just seven days to prepare the Volvo Open 70s for Leg 5 from Auckland to Itajaí in Brazil through the Southern Ocean.

During the leg the fleet could facing mountainous seas and wind speeds as high as 60 knots during the 6,700 nautical mile leg.

But a round-the-clock operation from all the shore teams has seen all the necessary repairs carried out, including the fixing of a hole in Groupama’s bow.

“It's all gone well – we got the majority of the jobs done that we needed to get done,” said PUMA shore crew manager Tim Hacket as Mar Mostro was lifted back into the water.

“We had a whole bunch of new side stays so we needed a bit of extra time tuning the rig before sailing tomorrow.

“We’re just ticking off the jobs between now and sailing tomorrow and then each night there after.”

Horacio Carabelli, Telefónica’s shore team manager, added: “Yesterday was quite a late day for us. The boys have worked very hard the last two days doing all the bits and pieces that were left.

“We put the boat back in the water this morning and we're pretty happy where we are.”

#53 harzak

harzak

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 566 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:18 AM

1 Tele
2 .. 6 I don't care

Just joking but it's funny by your predictions noone gives Tele a possibilty... Whishful thinking? :lol:

Yes.


Speaking for myself only.

#54 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

Swanno (Ohf Shore)

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,781 posts
  • Location:Perth, Western Australia

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:18 PM


1 Tele
2 .. 6 I don't care

Just joking but it's funny by your predictions noone gives Tele a possibilty... Whishful thinking? :lol:

Yes.


Speaking for myself only.


Me too.

#55 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,484 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:38 PM

To the horn

1 Groupama
2 Camper
3 Telefonica
4 Puma
5 ADOR
6 Sanya

To the finish

1 Puma
2 Telefonica
3 Groupama
4 ADOR
5 Camper
6 Sanya

And as there seems to be a wish to add some spice with "rig failure", "ret" or "this one goes to 11", the closest race will be for spots 3-4 and 4-5 with just hours separating the finishers.

#56 Estar

Estar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,416 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 01:40 PM

Forecast for the 19th - do they delay the start?

It's been a breezy fall in the southern ocean.



Attached File  auckland.jpg   532.58K   89 downloads

#57 punter

punter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,473 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 03:48 PM

Forecast for the 19th - do they delay the start?

It's been a breezy fall in the southern ocean.



Attached File  auckland.jpg   532.58K   89 downloads


Downwind start, so should be ok. Sanya was slamming into big seas upwind hence the delay.

#58 TheDragon

TheDragon

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 500 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:47 PM

Can anyone confirm the start time for the in port race on Saturday. It will be 8 PM central daylight savings time in the USA on Friday night if the countdown clock on the Volvo Ocean Race home page is right.

#59 Barnyb

Barnyb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,348 posts
  • Location:New Zealand

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:15 PM

In Port Race at 1.00 pm NZT (ask Mr Google for the time difference from your time zone)

http://www.volvoocea...race/3vor51.pdf


the area from VIP spot to the bridge has been very popular for fishing (Snapper) over the last 2 months. I guess the fisherman will have to take their little tinnies elsewhere Saturday.


The sunday start will be enormous. No rizes for who the home groundwill support.


Watched this sports news article on TVNZ. Good overview. GD hoping for some extreme weather out of Auckland. (for those of you not in Akld the weather has been crap all summer). He recognises the weather patterns on the VOR so far have been different from what TNZ anticipated and that has lead to an advantage for the JK boats.

http://tvnz.co.nz/sa...s-video-4777301



Just a little note. I went down to the viaduct last weekend with my boys. Puma, tele and Camper came in. Despite the weather the whole Volvo roadshow is a real credit. Special thanks to Volvo for sponsoring.

#60 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,589 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:19 PM

Downwind start, so should be ok. Sanya was slamming into big seas upwind hence the delay.


I think it's a bit early for a decent forecast especially one driven by tropical systems but given how wonderful the wx has been so far I wonder if will look like this:

Attached Files



#61 Moonduster

Moonduster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,353 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:12 PM

Yo, Daddy ...

I wrote "There are no limits to the number of rudders or daggerboards that can be built. However, changing boards, rudders, keel fins, keel bulbs (and booms and masts, for that matter) all invalidate the measurement certificate and require remeasuring"

Clean said there were inaccuracies in that. You say he's right. But then you go quoting some chapter and verse that has nothing to do with the number of boards, rudders, keel fins or keel bulbs that can be built or whether changes to those appendeges require remeasurement. Everything you wrote (essentially extracted from the rule) is correct, but it has nothing to do with what I wrote or that Clean, erroneously, said I'm mistaken.

There's nothing inaccurate with what I posted; it is essentially copied straight out of the V70 Rule and the NOR. Clean knows that but isn't man enough to admit it.

The facts remain that teams can build as many appendages as they like. Teams can change appendages as frequently as they like. Those changes will invalidate their measurement certificate unless the replacements have already been measured and are like-for-like. Remeasurement with previously unmeasured appendages will fail unless the appendages are like-for-like.

In no cases do changes to appendages cost points, which was the claim of the original post that started down this path. Again, teams can change appendages as often as they wish with no affect on their points total.

#62 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,589 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:23 PM

^^^Okay, I'm not real interested in the merde flinging but I am genuinely confused. As I read it the teams are limited to two designs for the rudders and boards and one for the strut and bulb. They can build any number of those. But once they have a yacht entered in the race I think the intention of the rules is that they can only change out like for like. If they remeasured with the other designs that would count as a new yacht (I think) and I don't think that's allowed... But, I could well be totally wrong.

#63 Moonduster

Moonduster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,353 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:33 PM

Rule69,

You've got it right.

#64 smackdaddy

smackdaddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,736 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:01 PM

^^^Okay, I'm not real interested in the merde flinging but I am genuinely confused. As I read it the teams are limited to two designs for the rudders and boards and one for the strut and bulb. They can build any number of those. But once they have a yacht entered in the race I think the intention of the rules is that they can only change out like for like. If they remeasured with the other designs that would count as a new yacht (I think) and I don't think that's allowed... But, I could well be totally wrong.


http://www.volvooceanrace.com/en/news/5470_DHL-delivers-as-PUMA-call-code-red.html

#65 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,589 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:24 PM

http://www.volvoocea...l-code-red.html


Thanks. Timely link. I presume that's a like for like replacement and no problem under the rules as I grok them.

#66 mr_ryano

mr_ryano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,967 posts
  • Location:Southeast of Disorder

Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:37 AM

Azzam will be in the top 3 around the Horn and may get the 24 hr record before too much upwind screws the pooch in the S. Atlantic

#67 Pesky's Pole

Pesky's Pole

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 170 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:07 AM

If say g4 decided to change to the Telefonica shaped daggerboards they would be penalized a number of points by the race organizers. Rudders and bulb or keelfin same. I will find out exact number of points.

#68 Pesky's Pole

Pesky's Pole

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 170 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:11 AM

If they were of different shape or size.

#69 oioi

oioi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 569 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:12 AM

Sanya miss the practice race due too late delivery of rigging parts (that should keep theyruth happy)


#70 Polar_William

Polar_William

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 50 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:00 AM

The ice gates are given on the race notice board. (Volvo noticeboard) Red part is fixed, the western end point of the blue line may be moved northward before any boat reaches 150 W.
How do these gates influence the race?
Attached File  plot.jpg   304.59K   75 downloads

#71 oioi

oioi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 569 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:37 AM

The ice gates are given on the race notice board. (Volvo noticeboard) Red part is fixed, the western end point of the blue line may be moved northward before any boat reaches 150 W.
How do these gates influence the race?
Attached File  plot.jpg   304.59K   75 downloads



these are not "gates" as used previously, these are lines that cannot be sailed below (or thats how I read the SI's). Therefore they have an even greater impact than previous gates, as they keep the boats out of the deep south for most of the leg, only allowing them to dip down for the horn. seems like it really restricts tactics, and the first part of the leg to the horn really is a pure speed test.

#72 Jube

Jube

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:56 AM

What's happen if a boat cross this lines?

#73 oioi

oioi

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 569 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:30 AM

What's happen if a boat cross this lines?


the lines are a mark of the course, therefore failed to sail the course, therefore DSQ

#74 Jube

Jube

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Location:Belgium

Posted 15 March 2012 - 09:42 AM

So if for a security reason (for exemple to evict an heavy wheather system) you cross the line you are DSQ!
I prefer the classic mark like in the vendee globe. There is more flexibility, less risk.
I don't understand why the organisation choose this system.

Apologies for my bad english.



#75 Scarecrow

Scarecrow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,615 posts
  • Location:Melbourne, Aus

Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:14 AM

I believe the lines actually represent sea shepards new whale protection lazer array and they will automatically slice off any part of a boat that crosses them. In the event that this doesn't make the news they will of course buy an old redundant world record boat in order to sink it in the same area.

#76 Who's your daddy

Who's your daddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:18 AM

Rule69,

You've got it right.

Moony, at the end of the day once they start the race they can not change appendage designs at all. They can replace with like for like daggerboards and rudders, but the position, shape and design weight has to be the same. So no room to optimise for expected conditions on a leg etc. That is the important bit.

#77 Estar

Estar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,416 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 11:38 AM

Weather at the start has evolved a bit, but continuing to look difficult.

Attached File  auck.jpg   155.06K   20 downloads

#78 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:15 PM

So in other words Daddy, as Moony says, they can rebuild their boat and appendages as many times as they like, with no penalty at all (other than not being able to race).

I hate what ice gates do to the racing, and these new latitude-line barriers are even worse.

#79 Who's your daddy

Who's your daddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:30 PM

So in other words Daddy, as Moony says, they can rebuild their boat and appendages as many times as they like, with no penalty at all (other than not being able to race).

I hate what ice gates do to the racing, and these new latitude-line barriers are even worse.

Exactly. They can swap the appendages to a different design and get remeasured and comply with the class rules, but the NOR then doesn't allow them to continue in the race as the same boat. So not really a sensible solution :blink:

I agree that on the southern barriers and gates. Again, this should be all left to good seamanship on the part of the skippers.

#80 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:40 PM

The ice gates are given on the race notice board. (Volvo noticeboard) Red part is fixed, the western end point of the blue line may be moved northward before any boat reaches 150 W.
How do these gates influence the race?
Attached File  plot.jpg   304.59K   75 downloads



It's similar to, say, the use of restrictor plates in NASCAR races. Takes some of the options out of the racing but in theory makes it a whole lot safer for everyone. In this instance I fully support the requirement that the boats stay north of this line. Everyone has to do so -- it's not as though it isn't fair. We know from BPV's recent trip that the ice is pretty far north this year. The consequences of a boat hitting ice while going 25 knots could be horrific, and among other things impose exorbitant rescue costs that would not likely be borne by the VOR team in question.

#81 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:44 PM

So in other words Daddy, as Moony says, they can rebuild their boat and appendages as many times as they like, with no penalty at all (other than not being able to race).

I hate what ice gates do to the racing, and these new latitude-line barriers are even worse.




With all due respect, do you want to see people die? How does the imposition of the latitude lines make the race worse? They are the same for all the boats. Sports fans who are out looking to watch athletes' blood spilled -- or at least find things more interesting when the possibility exists -- well, that's hard to countenance.

#82 onimod

onimod

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 987 posts
  • Location:Sydney
  • Interests:Cannot be left blank

Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:02 PM

If the ice is really that high I don't have a problem.
BPV needed a massive amount of data to pick the route they did and their nav station looked a lot more comfortable and productive than a Vo70 one.
The also had more staff to devote to the issue.

#83 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:45 PM

There is no doubt that ice barrier creation is the inexpensive and easy solution. It also fundamentally changes the race, and I'm just not sure it is worth it. I'm not looking for death and mayhem, but sailing upwind or tight reaching in procession through 5000 miles of ocean (ironically, their course doesn't even touch the 'Southern Ocean' under nearly every accepted definition) just doesn't scream "The World's Toughest Ocean Race" or whatever the slogan is. I guess now that I am about to turn forty I am starting to think everything should be the way it was in the "Good Ol' Days". Not that I have a better solution.

I sure hope the big systems are far enough North this month for some 'classic' South Pacific conditions, but if they end up with the same nasty upwind and bound-up reaching conditions that the ice-gated Velux and Vendee and GOR and BWR have had recently, no one is going to be able to claim surprise.

#84 KingMonkey

KingMonkey

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,682 posts
  • Location:Ex-London, Now Brasilia

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:02 PM

There is no doubt that ice barrier creation is the inexpensive and easy solution. It also fundamentally changes the race, and I'm just not sure it is worth it. I'm not looking for death and mayhem, but sailing upwind or tight reaching in procession through 5000 miles of ocean (ironically, their course doesn't even touch the 'Southern Ocean' under nearly every accepted definition) just doesn't scream "The World's Toughest Ocean Race" or whatever the slogan is. I guess now that I am about to turn forty I am starting to think everything should be the way it was in the "Good Ol' Days". Not that I have a better solution.

I sure hope the big systems are far enough North this month for some 'classic' South Pacific conditions, but if they end up with the same nasty upwind and bound-up reaching conditions that the ice-gated Velux and Vendee and GOR and BWR have had recently, no one is going to be able to claim surprise.


Yes, I rather oddly find myself agreeing with you here. It's six boats of grown ups being sailed by grown ups. Why don't they define their own risk on this, as with every other decision they make in the race, many of which are life-threatening. VOR HQ doesn't have a "put on your lifejackets" button if it gets a bit windy.

#85 Who's your daddy

Who's your daddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:10 PM


There is no doubt that ice barrier creation is the inexpensive and easy solution. It also fundamentally changes the race, and I'm just not sure it is worth it. I'm not looking for death and mayhem, but sailing upwind or tight reaching in procession through 5000 miles of ocean (ironically, their course doesn't even touch the 'Southern Ocean' under nearly every accepted definition) just doesn't scream "The World's Toughest Ocean Race" or whatever the slogan is. I guess now that I am about to turn forty I am starting to think everything should be the way it was in the "Good Ol' Days". Not that I have a better solution.

I sure hope the big systems are far enough North this month for some 'classic' South Pacific conditions, but if they end up with the same nasty upwind and bound-up reaching conditions that the ice-gated Velux and Vendee and GOR and BWR have had recently, no one is going to be able to claim surprise.


Yes, I rather oddly find myself agreeing with you here. It's six boats of grown ups being sailed by grown ups. Why don't they define their own risk on this, as with every other decision they make in the race, many of which are life-threatening. VOR HQ doesn't have a "put on your lifejackets" button if it gets a bit windy.


I also agree. There is nothing wrong with Volvo giving the competitors all of the information they have on the ice, but why then take a tactical decision away from everyone? No one wants to see people die, but it is up to each skipper to assess the dangers for themselves. Hit a growler and you are likely to be out of the leg at best. The crew will be stressed and you will need constant lookouts. Alternatively, don't cut the corner but keep the crew fresher and don't take as big a risk. Those options and responsibilities of the skippers has been taken away from them. I think that is a shame.

#86 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:21 PM

Obviously, having a full crew is the big difference between this and say a Vendee. As a skipper, having crew required to keep radar and bow watch would suck - but ice and deep south conditions would certainly make this race far more interesting to a lot of people.

A decision to let the teams dive as deep as they like could also provide a real competitive marketing advantage for the race's level of prestige and 'adventure' compared to say the soon-to-race-round-the-world MOD-70 class, which has the potential of making a bit of a mockery of VO-70 racing in terms of speed, overall cost, and number of entries.

#87 harzak

harzak

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 566 posts
  • Location:Norway

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:27 PM



There is no doubt that ice barrier creation is the inexpensive and easy solution. It also fundamentally changes the race, and I'm just not sure it is worth it. I'm not looking for death and mayhem, but sailing upwind or tight reaching in procession through 5000 miles of ocean (ironically, their course doesn't even touch the 'Southern Ocean' under nearly every accepted definition) just doesn't scream "The World's Toughest Ocean Race" or whatever the slogan is. I guess now that I am about to turn forty I am starting to think everything should be the way it was in the "Good Ol' Days". Not that I have a better solution.

I sure hope the big systems are far enough North this month for some 'classic' South Pacific conditions, but if they end up with the same nasty upwind and bound-up reaching conditions that the ice-gated Velux and Vendee and GOR and BWR have had recently, no one is going to be able to claim surprise.


Yes, I rather oddly find myself agreeing with you here. It's six boats of grown ups being sailed by grown ups. Why don't they define their own risk on this, as with every other decision they make in the race, many of which are life-threatening. VOR HQ doesn't have a "put on your lifejackets" button if it gets a bit windy.


I also agree. There is nothing wrong with Volvo giving the competitors all of the information they have on the ice, but why then take a tactical decision away from everyone? No one wants to see people die, but it is up to each skipper to assess the dangers for themselves. Hit a growler and you are likely to be out of the leg at best. The crew will be stressed and you will need constant lookouts. Alternatively, don't cut the corner but keep the crew fresher and don't take as big a risk. Those options and responsibilities of the skippers has been taken away from them. I think that is a shame.

It's a pity the ice is as far north now. But IMHO what we can't have is a leg where to win you'd be lucky not to die (and/or your boat go down due to crashing with ice).

So while I'm a bit sad that they can't go further south, the underlying reason for my sadness is the ice. It is how it is.

#88 Terrorvision

Terrorvision

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,832 posts
  • Interests:Taking 'the' out of Psychotherapist

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:28 PM

Obviously, having a full crew is the big difference between this and say a Vendee. As a skipper, having crew required to keep radar and bow watch would suck - but ice and deep south conditions would certainly make this race far more interesting to a lot of people.

A decision to let the teams dive as deep as they like could also provide a real competitive marketing advantage for the race's level of prestige and 'adventure' compared to say the soon-to-race-round-the-world MOD-70 class, which has the potential of making a bit of a mockery of VO-70 racing in terms of speed, overall cost, and number of entries.


I heard that Veolia has dropped out of the MOD 70 (or is that old news?) due to costs which I find odd when controlled cost was one of the selling points of the class.

How much further north is the ice than when the boats were being designed based on the route? Surely they would have taken the ice-gate into consideration when thinking about designing a downwind flyer.

#89 bbr

bbr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 125 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:53 PM

Weather at the start has evolved a bit, but continuing to look difficult.

Attached File  auck.jpg   155.06K   20 downloads


Estar:

Leg 5 starts on March 18 at 1400 local time (0100 UTC)... Your graphic shows what it could be like 14 hours after the start, which will most likely have the boats around the corner already... It will be interesting to see how quickly things change between now and then...

Bill

#90 Who's your daddy

Who's your daddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:55 PM

It's a pity the ice is as far north now. But IMHO what we can't have is a leg where to win you'd be lucky not to die (and/or your boat go down due to crashing with ice).

So while I'm a bit sad that they can't go further south, the underlying reason for my sadness is the ice. It is how it is.


Well yes, at the end of the day it is the ice that is dictating this, not individuals. Most of the classic footage any of us remember from the early races was with ice and snow on the decks. Makes you think of the early polar explorers like Amundsen, Scott and Shackelton. Seeing the JV guys go there and then hearing that the Volvo boats are living life at the extreme just doesn't conjure up the same image.

#91 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:00 PM

I heard that Veolia has dropped out of the MOD 70 (or is that old news?) due to costs which I find odd when controlled cost was one of the selling points of the class.


Veolia dropped out (a month or so ago) because the company is getting killed right now all over the world, and laying off thousands of workers rarely goes well with multimillion dollar yacht sponsorships. They also changed CEOs, with the new one being not the fan of ocean racing the old one was. My sources tell me the other 8 MOD70s will be racing around the world in 2014, possibly as many as 10. It's one of the few success stories still looking good right now in major commercially funded racing.

#92 rmb

rmb

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 146 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:18 PM


I heard that Veolia has dropped out of the MOD 70 (or is that old news?) due to costs which I find odd when controlled cost was one of the selling points of the class.


Veolia dropped out (a month or so ago) because the company is getting killed right now all over the world, and laying off thousands of workers rarely goes well with multimillion dollar yacht sponsorships. They also changed CEOs, with the new one being not the fan of ocean racing the old one was. My sources tell me the other 8 MOD70s will be racing around the world in 2014, possibly as many as 10. It's one of the few success stories still looking good right now in major commercially funded racing.


Just a quick note here to say the MOD70 won't be going into the Southern Ocean. On their world tour they will take both Suez and Panama canals.
R

#93 smackdaddy

smackdaddy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,736 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 03:40 PM


It's a pity the ice is as far north now. But IMHO what we can't have is a leg where to win you'd be lucky not to die (and/or your boat go down due to crashing with ice).

So while I'm a bit sad that they can't go further south, the underlying reason for my sadness is the ice. It is how it is.


Well yes, at the end of the day it is the ice that is dictating this, not individuals. Most of the classic footage any of us remember from the early races was with ice and snow on the decks. Makes you think of the early polar explorers like Amundsen, Scott and Shackelton. Seeing the JV guys go there and then hearing that the Volvo boats are living life at the extreme just doesn't conjure up the same image.


This is actually a tough call...tougher than I thought. I was completely on the side of letting the skippers make the calls...period. But then I saw the documentary "Formula 1: The Killer Years". It definitely made me think.

There is definitely a balance between race management and racers that has to be monitored. I suppose that at the end of the race if there's an outcry from the skippers about the delayed Sanya start, and this "ice exclusion line" - we'll know the balance was out of whack. At this point, there doesn't seem to be significant outcries against these decisions. So we'll see.

Even so, at the heart of it, I'm a fan of leaving these decisions in the hands of the skippers. It just doesn't seem right to subvert that on-boat authority.

#94 KingMonkey

KingMonkey

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,682 posts
  • Location:Ex-London, Now Brasilia

Posted 15 March 2012 - 04:21 PM

I remember Lawrie Smith saying on Intrum Justitia that in the Southern Ocean, one person on the watch had to spend their entire time up at the shrouds looking out for ice. He said it wasn't a popular job.

That race, he clocked up a then-record of 428 miles in a day. So about 100 miles less than the VO70s will be doing on a reasonable day, or 150 miles less than record times. But really, that's between 4 and 6 knots difference. If you hit a growler, how much is it going to matter if you're doing 18,22 or 24 knots? Either way, you're sunk. Others may be able to tell me that the ice situation is totally different from 20 years ago, but either way, you've got to avoid it.

If you drive at 20 knots and hit a growler, you will sink. If you do 15 you will probably sink. If you hit it doing 10 you will probably be out of the race. 5 knots and maybe you'll get away with it.

Assuming no-one wants to skirt the South Pole doing 5 kts, the only choice is to plot a course somewhere with a low ice risk.

#95 Estar

Estar

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,416 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 05:46 PM

Leg 5 starts on March 18 at 1400 local time (0100 UTC)... It will be interesting to see how quickly things change between now and then...


Right now it looks like they will have a bad choice between going south upwind, or going east to try to cross the developing trough (looks like a light wind wall if these winds are at all right)

We are starting to get into the window where the forecast is becoming more solid.

0300z - 1hr after the start - right?
Attached File  auckland0300.jpg   122.26K   17 downloads

0900z
Attached File  auckland0900.jpg   124.71K   19 downloads

1500z
Attached File  auckland1500.jpg   114.04K   11 downloads

#96 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:17 PM



I heard that Veolia has dropped out of the MOD 70 (or is that old news?) due to costs which I find odd when controlled cost was one of the selling points of the class.


Veolia dropped out (a month or so ago) because the company is getting killed right now all over the world, and laying off thousands of workers rarely goes well with multimillion dollar yacht sponsorships. They also changed CEOs, with the new one being not the fan of ocean racing the old one was. My sources tell me the other 8 MOD70s will be racing around the world in 2014, possibly as many as 10. It's one of the few success stories still looking good right now in major commercially funded racing.


Just a quick note here to say the MOD70 won't be going into the Southern Ocean. On their world tour they will take both Suez and Panama canals.
R

Thanks Ryan. My point was exactly that: The MOD70 may be newer and sexier and faster than the VO70 concept, but the Volvo Ocean Race has the distinction of being the one that goes to Cape Horn, to the Deep South, to the land of the "giant waves that go right round the earth unimpeded" ;) and all the other macho, extreme words you can throw at the fact that the VOR is the badass of ocean racing. In the face of competing races that are more modern, more in line with the AC (and the sponsorship education that entails), and faster, the VOR will have to embrace the kind of badassery that makes it different than the MOD.


But If they can't go below 50 degrees except to go round the horn, they're not even racing in the Southern Ocean, technically.

#97 Vorwaerts

Vorwaerts

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 285 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 06:45 PM

Is there a replay of the leg from China to Brasil from the last race. I think the ice gates played a role such that E3 northern flyer worked. Without them the fastest route might have been deep south. If this is the case it would be wrong to state that the ice gates/exclusion zones make the race boring from a strategy point of view. It would be rather the opposite.

#98 Potter

Potter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 981 posts

Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:01 PM

All this talk about not having Ice Gates is irrelevant. The moment they were first introduced meant that they are here to stay for any event using a race committee. If a RC do not put them in place then the insurance company would find them liable if there was an incident.
In other races (VG and BWR) certain gates are required by governing authorities. In the BWR the Australian authorities originally requested that competitors be kept to a maximum of 1000nm from Australian shores.

Interestingly enough I have always found that the skippers tend (not always) to prefer to have the ice gates in place....that said they also do not like 'barriers' as it reduces choice in the case of avoiding bad weather.

#99 Terrorvision

Terrorvision

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,832 posts
  • Interests:Taking 'the' out of Psychotherapist

Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:23 PM



I heard that Veolia has dropped out of the MOD 70 (or is that old news?) due to costs which I find odd when controlled cost was one of the selling points of the class.


Veolia dropped out (a month or so ago) because the company is getting killed right now all over the world, and laying off thousands of workers rarely goes well with multimillion dollar yacht sponsorships. They also changed CEOs, with the new one being not the fan of ocean racing the old one was. My sources tell me the other 8 MOD70s will be racing around the world in 2014, possibly as many as 10. It's one of the few success stories still looking good right now in major commercially funded racing.


That sucks- similar to the Ecover story.

The MOD70 was definitely the right time, the right boat, the right price..... looking forward to seeing how it pans out. Is morocco still playing with the big boys?

#100 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,329 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:47 PM

I don't know what the real story behind the morocco team was, or is. Very quiet right now...


As for ice gates and barriers, it was something I talked to a lot of the BWR and RdR skippers about, and there was definitely no consensus either way, though non-french seemed to favor them more than french. Some skippers were vocally against them, but for the life of me I can't remember who, nor did i record the info as it was just an ancillary thing I was curious about. BVL certainly didn't like them.

Regardless, you are 100% right about insurance. Another choice made not by the sport or the market, but by the lawyers.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users