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Farr 400 vs McConaghy 38 vs Farr 40


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#1 Mr Happy

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:20 AM

I saw the Farr 400 getting thrashed by a McConaghy 38 yesterday and notice it avoided racing the McConaghy 38s and Farr 40s at Sail Sydney Regatta on the weekend too.

Plus the Farr 40 association have come out and said the Farr 400 is slower upwind than a Farr 40 and the performance advantage was not as advertised by the Farr 400 VPP.

So the question is ................... is the Farr 400 just to slow to succeed as a class?

#2 paulewill

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 07:39 AM

Doesn't seem to bother Etchells being slow.

#3 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 08:07 AM

The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year

the F400 will also line up against 2 F40's modified with sprits at Sail Port Stepehns in about 4 weeks time.

#4 stealingisacrime

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

400 has to make it as an OD. Reports are that it is slower than the Soto, Ker 40 and the M38.

I think it just looks "wrong" - these high tech narrow-ish boats don't make sense to me.

One can create a modern race boat light enough to have some beam, form stability and righting moment from that beam without a massive wetted surface and displacement penalty.

I was not a big fan of the M38 when I saw it on paper, but it looks slick sailing and looks "right" in my opinion.

#5 MKF

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 01:37 PM

From my experience with Farr, they get their performance numbers very close to reality. They show the 400 faster up wind, my guess is there is still some learning at the 400 coal face vs the 40.

Against the 38 no idea, but the 38 looks like one heck of a weapon. Would be great here in Dubai...

Soto 40 I am sure is not an issue for either the 38 or 400... Nevertheless the 409 needs to sell some more to hit critical mass.

Interesting to see how all this develops, out of interest who from the 40 fleet is saying its faster? Stagg or others?

#6 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 02:11 PM

I think Stagg is still driving the F40 class, would have approval on that release that touted the F40 as faster than the 400. Not that he is wrong - it would surprise me if a decade of top pro sailing and sail developement didn't make it faster than a newer, more complicated boat, especially in fully powered up conditions in KW.

I think that the Farr 400 is in the same class as we are in St. Thomas next week on mostly windward/leeward courses. Then they are int he same class as Rob and Sandy Butler's MC38 in Charleston. I am on the Beneteau First 40 Smile and Wave in STT, and will be on the water doing some reporting in CHS. Reports to follow.

#7 DamnSkippy

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Posted 15 March 2012 - 10:37 PM

Farr40=
LOA = 40.72ft
Beam = 13.22ft
Disp. = 10,902lbs
Keel = 4,960lbs
Sail = 102.3m2 upwind

Farr400=
LOA = 38.71ft
Beam = 11.22ft
Disp. = 8,624lbs
Keel = 4,796lbs
Sail = 102m2 upwind

#8 Mr Happy

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:28 AM

The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year


If you don't sail against any other boats at Key West you are unlikely to have 'issues' with other boats being quicker !!

That F400 had its own start at Key West impressed me - until I found out it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?

#9 DickDastardly

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:47 AM

Farr40=
LOA = 40.72ft
Beam = 13.22ft
Disp. = 10,902lbs
Keel = 4,960lbs
Sail = 102.3m2 upwind

Farr400=
LOA = 38.71ft
Beam = 11.22ft
Disp. = 8,624lbs
Keel = 4,796lbs
Sail = 102m2 upwind


On those numbers, given the fat assed hull form and how LCB moves outwards and aft with heel the F400 shouldn't be too much much less stable than the old boat. But, having sailed F40s a plenty I know their hull form is sweet as upwind, that whole generation of Farr boats is, and looking at the fat bow on the 400 I wonder if it is as good - especially in waves where all that extra buoyancy up front will cause it to get smacked around a bit.

#10 The Cone

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:04 AM

From my experience with Farr, they get their performance numbers very close to reality. They show the 400 faster up wind, my guess is there is still some learning at the 400 coal face vs the 40.

Against the 38 no idea, but the 38 looks like one heck of a weapon. Would be great here in Dubai...

Soto 40 I am sure is not an issue for either the 38 or 400... Nevertheless the 409 needs to sell some more to hit critical mass.

Interesting to see how all this develops, out of interest who from the 40 fleet is saying its faster? Stagg or others?


Hi MKF and clean,

Thanks for the compliment about the MC38, I have one and I think it's pretty cool. But I am a bit biased.

Agree with Mr Clean. Lots to learn to get it sorted like a Farr 40. For example, we had some Farr 40 pros on board the other day helping us. Great guys and don't criticize but after the race I saying how great it is that the MC 38 goes 8 knots upwind and they told me it shouldn't! They say 8 knots is way too fast for a 38 footer and I need to go much higher with a target of say 7.5. Apparently the targets on the Farr 40 are 7.2-7.3 and they go super high. I guess that is the sort of thing you learn after lots of development and hopefully with 3 MC38s in Sydney now, we get them developed a bit more.

#11 Rawhide

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:58 AM


From my experience with Farr, they get their performance numbers very close to reality. They show the 400 faster up wind, my guess is there is still some learning at the 400 coal face vs the 40.

Against the 38 no idea, but the 38 looks like one heck of a weapon. Would be great here in Dubai...

Soto 40 I am sure is not an issue for either the 38 or 400... Nevertheless the 409 needs to sell some more to hit critical mass.

Interesting to see how all this develops, out of interest who from the 40 fleet is saying its faster? Stagg or others?


Hi MKF and clean,

Thanks for the compliment about the MC38, I have one and I think it's pretty cool. But I am a bit biased.

Agree with Mr Clean. Lots to learn to get it sorted like a Farr 40. For example, we had some Farr 40 pros on board the other day helping us. Great guys and don't criticize but after the race I saying how great it is that the MC 38 goes 8 knots upwind and they told me it shouldn't! They say 8 knots is way too fast for a 38 footer and I need to go much higher with a target of say 7.5. Apparently the targets on the Farr 40 are 7.2-7.3 and they go super high. I guess that is the sort of thing you learn after lots of development and hopefully with 3 MC38s in Sydney now, we get them developed a bit more.

Interesting how the F40 targets max out at 7.3 yet in 20knots and flat water if your not doing 7.4/7.5 at 32 you are going out the back door. Only thing I can think is that the targets are intentionally dumbed down so the pro's can tell the owner how great they are driving!

#12 Left Hook

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:19 AM


The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year

That F400 had its own start at Key West impressed me - until I found out it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?


Really? I'm interested to see how Doghouse feels about your post. I'm not even a stakeholder in the class and I know that this statement you made is incorrect... in multiple ways.

#13 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:27 AM

He's seen it...

#14 The Cone

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:44 AM

Interesting how the F40 targets max out at 7.3 yet in 20knots and flat water if your not doing 7.4/7.5 at 32 you are going out the back door. Only thing I can think is that the targets are intentionally dumbed down so the pro's can tell the owner how great they are driving!
[/quote]


Always the cynic !

#15 BAR KARATE

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:16 AM



From my experience with Farr, they get their performance numbers very close to reality. They show the 400 faster up wind, my guess is there is still some learning at the 400 coal face vs the 40.

Against the 38 no idea, but the 38 looks like one heck of a weapon. Would be great here in Dubai...

Soto 40 I am sure is not an issue for either the 38 or 400... Nevertheless the 409 needs to sell some more to hit critical mass.

Interesting to see how all this develops, out of interest who from the 40 fleet is saying its faster? Stagg or others?


Hi MKF and clean,

Thanks for the compliment about the MC38, I have one and I think it's pretty cool. But I am a bit biased.

Agree with Mr Clean. Lots to learn to get it sorted like a Farr 40. For example, we had some Farr 40 pros on board the other day helping us. Great guys and don't criticize but after the race I saying how great it is that the MC 38 goes 8 knots upwind and they told me it shouldn't! They say 8 knots is way too fast for a 38 footer and I need to go much higher with a target of say 7.5. Apparently the targets on the Farr 40 are 7.2-7.3 and they go super high. I guess that is the sort of thing you learn after lots of development and hopefully with 3 MC38s in Sydney now, we get them developed a bit more.

Interesting how the F40 targets max out at 7.3 yet in 20knots and flat water if your not doing 7.4/7.5 at 32 you are going out the back door. Only thing I can think is that the targets are intentionally dumbed down so the pro's can tell the owner how great they are driving!

Reality catching up from a couple of weeks ago mate :D ....

#16 miahmouse

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:01 PM


The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year


If you don't sail against any other boats at Key West you are unlikely to have 'issues' with other boats being quicker !!

That F400 had its own start at Key West impressed me - until I found out it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?


May want to get your facts straight...

#17 doghouse

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:44 PM


Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?


Really? I'm interested to see how Doghouse feels about your post. I'm not even a stakeholder in the class and I know that this statement you made is incorrect... in multiple ways.


Yeah, I'm not getting involved with this silliness for the reason below.

May want to get your facts straight...



#18 Asymptote

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:00 PM

Bump

#19 Edake

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year

the F400 will also line up against 2 F40's modified with sprits at Sail Port Stepehns in about 4 weeks time.

Would be great to see a Farr 40 OD up there as well especially on the windward/leeward courses. The guys with sprits will have to do a lot of zig zagging downwind.

#20 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:00 AM

The 40s are sailing PHS on the passage courses

#21 mh111

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:11 AM


The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year

the F400 will also line up against 2 F40's modified with sprits at Sail Port Stepehns in about 4 weeks time.

Would be great to see a Farr 40 OD up there as well especially on the windward/leeward courses. The guys with sprits will have to do a lot of zig zagging downwind.

hi edake

as you know, i've always been a massive fan of the F40...but having been there on both boats i'm sorry to say that imho the M38 will have a F40 for breakfast on any course configuration

i know you don't want to hear that, but the only consolation is that the M38 is 'just' a glorified sports boat - the F40 is a real yacht. no question which boat i'd take to sea...but for short course inshore racing...sorry mate, the wheel has turned

cheers,

#22 Edake

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:40 AM



The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year

the F400 will also line up against 2 F40's modified with sprits at Sail Port Stepehns in about 4 weeks time.

Would be great to see a Farr 40 OD up there as well especially on the windward/leeward courses. The guys with sprits will have to do a lot of zig zagging downwind.

hi edake

as you know, i've always been a massive fan of the F40...but having been there on both boats i'm sorry to say that imho the M38 will have a F40 for breakfast on any course configuration

i know you don't want to hear that, but the only consolation is that the M38 is 'just' a glorified sports boat - the F40 is a real yacht. no question which boat i'd take to sea...but for short course inshore racing...sorry mate, the wheel has turned

cheers,

I think you will see above if you read it was talking about the F400 not the M38. I too have been on the M38 and as yet I am not convinced about its offshore capabilities. If you can not do an east coast race what good is it other than club racing. It is not competitive under IRC and it will be years before they have enough boats to do class racing. So you want to pay $400k+ for a club racer?

#23 Edake

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:50 AM

The 40s are sailing PHS on the passage courses

Reckon that just about fits them. If a Farr 40 OD entered in PHS I would not be surprised to see it have a handicap the same as the Farr 400 and would have to give the sprit ones time around the course.

#24 MKF

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:12 AM

Not sure about this, but got a email to Farr web site where it is claimed the 400 beat the 38 and smoked by the 40 - any ideas what this is based up?

Thanks

#25 The Cone

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:35 AM




The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year

the F400 will also line up against 2 F40's modified with sprits at Sail Port Stepehns in about 4 weeks time.

Would be great to see a Farr 40 OD up there as well especially on the windward/leeward courses. The guys with sprits will have to do a lot of zig zagging downwind.

hi edake

as you know, i've always been a massive fan of the F40...but having been there on both boats i'm sorry to say that imho the M38 will have a F40 for breakfast on any course configuration

i know you don't want to hear that, but the only consolation is that the M38 is 'just' a glorified sports boat - the F40 is a real yacht. no question which boat i'd take to sea...but for short course inshore racing...sorry mate, the wheel has turned

cheers,

I think you will see above if you read it was talking about the F400 not the M38. I too have been on the M38 and as yet I am not convinced about its offshore capabilities. If you can not do an east coast race what good is it other than club racing. It is not competitive under IRC and it will be years before they have enough boats to do class racing. So you want to pay $400k+ for a club racer?




I'm going to do Sydney - Southport in my MC38.

Look at it this way. This boat's 38 feet so it has got to me more comfortable than the 32ft Cone of Silence. And drier !

Not sure about it's offshore capabilities Edake and Chris? I bet both you guys have raced along that bit of coast in 31 footers before you got soft !!

Hopefully the Dark Star will do it too. One design offshore racing in boats that plane will be great. C'mon Edake and Chris - you know you want to come.

#26 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:14 AM

Not sure about this, but got a email to Farr web site where it is claimed the 400 beat the 38 and smoked by the 40 - any ideas what this is based up?

Thanks

Could be talking about last weekends Sydney Harbour Regatta. If so it's a crock of shit, the 400 raced offshore passage courses and the 38's raced inshore W/L(may have been inshore passages) and I'm also pretty sure the F40 sailed offshore W/L courses???

#27 paulewill

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:08 AM

One word -

Tow Truck

#28 mh111

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:42 AM

One word -

Tow Truck

ahh...i think that's actually 2 words

but i know what you mean (although i think a mumm 30 actually has more room below :P

cheers,

#29 Trickypig

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:46 PM

Interesting reading.. this thread.

Does the the MC38 or the Farr 400 design hit the mark?

I know from personal experience that there were large lisence fees priced into a Farr 40 for both the Farr office and for Stagg's efforts. The high price of a Farr 40 worked because the Farr 40 was inspired leading edge design and had no competitors. Now they are repeating the formula with the Farr 400; but is the design leading edge? The construction is decidedly mid tech, the boat is expensive and is it the most fun design in its class?

I'm biased because I sail with Jamie on his various Cones and the latest MC38 Cone is seriously quick and surprisingly easy to sail. I'm still amazed the Farr 400 needs a grinder for the kites. For me, the grinder only has negative implications. If they really need it then the boat is loading up too much downwind. Having a bigger bloke off the rail and on the grinder is not fast either. I've trimmed the kite on the MC38 in some fresh breezes and the boat just accelerates and never needs more than the primary with a winch handle.

The F400 will only come out and play here, when it has it's paid world class sailors steering and pulling strings, yet we need regular racing to make observations. This expensive style of marketing can work to launch a class; but in the end the owners will run the class and may not appreciate the locked in high margins.

#30 Ballast Technician

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:33 PM

Interesting reading.. this thread.

Does the the MC38 or the Farr 400 design hit the mark?

I know from personal experience that there were large lisence fees priced into a Farr 40 for both the Farr office and for Stagg's efforts. The high price of a Farr 40 worked because the Farr 40 was inspired leading edge design and had no competitors. Now they are repeating the formula with the Farr 400; but is the design leading edge? The construction is decidedly mid tech, the boat is expensive and is it the most fun design in its class?

I'm biased because I sail with Jamie on his various Cones and the latest MC38 Cone is seriously quick and surprisingly easy to sail. I'm still amazed the Farr 400 needs a grinder for the kites. For me, the grinder only has negative implications. If they really need it then the boat is loading up too much downwind. Having a bigger bloke off the rail and on the grinder is not fast either. I've trimmed the kite on the MC38 in some fresh breezes and the boat just accelerates and never needs more than the primary with a winch handle.

The F400 will only come out and play here, when it has it's paid world class sailors steering and pulling strings, yet we need regular racing to make observations. This expensive style of marketing can work to launch a class; but in the end the owners will run the class and may not appreciate the locked in high margins.


Not going to wade into the debate, but just to highlight that the main point of the pedestal is not power when trimming the kite (although it helps with that as well) but line speed for gybes, hoists, and drops.

#31 2XD

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:52 PM

there is a lot going on in this design space and has been for some time, will anyone get the traction that is required to make interesting OD racing?


The sydney 38 did have the numbers for a while and it was a low tech not super quick boat. The Farr40 was the upper level and never really got the numbers in oz.

so which one will it be? they both look impressive but there can only be one!

#32 port tack

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:17 PM

If there can be only one! Someone needs to design the super fast Highlander 40! :P

#33 Mark D

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:26 PM

If there can be only one! Someone needs to design the super fast Highlander 40! :P


+1

#34 Rawhide

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:16 PM

Not sure about this, but got a email to Farr web site where it is claimed the 400 beat the 38 and smoked by the 40 - any ideas what this is based up?

Thanks

This is the email I believe, dosent make any outlandish statements.

We have tabulated elapsed times from the recently concluded, highly successful Quantum Key West Race Week to produce a Comparison Table showing the relative performance of the Farr 40 against the new Farr 400 and McConaghy 38. The elapsed times are official from Premiere Racing who corrected them after we spotted an error in race 6. There were 10 races in winds ranging from 8 - 22 knots.

We have very accurate upwind and downwind times for races 6 though 9 and have also included a detailed leg-by-leg breakdown of those races.

General observations were:
F40 is generally faster upwind vs F400 and MC38, particularly in any wave action
Downwind F40 is surprisingly competitive in up to 16 knots and over 20 knots wind speed. Between 16 and 20 knots the F400 and MC38 have an advantage, being considerably lighter
There is no doubt that on any reaching legs both the F400 and MC38 would be significantly faster
In upwind/downwind course racing the performance advantage was not as advertised by the F400 VPP
The big surprise was how competitive the F40 was in the 8 - 15 knot range
It is of great interest to note that 15 years after the Farr 40 was launched, designers have not made significant speed breakthroughs, and it is reassuring for Farr 40 owners their boats are still highly competitive amongst the new breed of similar sized boats.

Best regards,

Tink Chambers
Farr 40 Class Secretary

#35 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:32 PM


Not sure about this, but got a email to Farr web site where it is claimed the 400 beat the 38 and smoked by the 40 - any ideas what this is based up?

Thanks

This is the email I believe, dosent make any outlandish statements.


We have very accurate upwind and downwind times for races 6 though 9 and have also included a detailed leg-by-leg breakdown of those races.


One of the problems with Tinks's analysis was that the conclusions and table were based on just 4 of the ten races IIRC.

#36 hermetic

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:40 PM

I would think most people would understand that Tink's statements "races 6 through 9" implied 4 races, and "There were 10 races" implied ther were a total of 10 races.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

#37 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:57 PM

hey, i'm just remembering what the gripes were when it came out publicly, followed by Dee's equally insincere analysis for the F400, both with some kind of table attached. I don't blame them - it's smart marketing to take aim at the new kid on the block/old established brand - just silly to compare anything to brand new boats, because you know they will get better and then your words will be used against you.

I couldn't care less, though I will do my best to judge speeds based on what I find out this week in STT.

#38 Trickypig

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:11 PM


Interesting reading.. this thread.

Does the the MC38 or the Farr 400 design hit the mark?

I know from personal experience that there were large lisence fees priced into a Farr 40 for both the Farr office and for Stagg's efforts. The high price of a Farr 40 worked because the Farr 40 was inspired leading edge design and had no competitors. Now they are repeating the formula with the Farr 400; but is the design leading edge? The construction is decidedly mid tech, the boat is expensive and is it the most fun design in its class?

I'm biased because I sail with Jamie on his various Cones and the latest MC38 Cone is seriously quick and surprisingly easy to sail. I'm still amazed the Farr 400 needs a grinder for the kites. For me, the grinder only has negative implications. If they really need it then the boat is loading up too much downwind. Having a bigger bloke off the rail and on the grinder is not fast either. I've trimmed the kite on the MC38 in some fresh breezes and the boat just accelerates and never needs more than the primary with a winch handle.

The F400 will only come out and play here, when it has it's paid world class sailors steering and pulling strings, yet we need regular racing to make observations. This expensive style of marketing can work to launch a class; but in the end the owners will run the class and may not appreciate the locked in high margins.


Not going to wade into the debate, but just to highlight that the main point of the pedestal is not power when trimming the kite (although it helps with that as well) but line speed for gybes, hoists, and drops.


Roger that; not sure how it helps with a drop though. Its a nice bit of bling, but I just haven't observed a need on Cone yet. Perhaps the loads are lower. ..and if you had one wouldn't you put it aft?

#39 Rawhide

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:54 PM





The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year

the F400 will also line up against 2 F40's modified with sprits at Sail Port Stepehns in about 4 weeks time.

Would be great to see a Farr 40 OD up there as well especially on the windward/leeward courses. The guys with sprits will have to do a lot of zig zagging downwind.

hi edake

as you know, i've always been a massive fan of the F40...but having been there on both boats i'm sorry to say that imho the M38 will have a F40 for breakfast on any course configuration

i know you don't want to hear that, but the only consolation is that the M38 is 'just' a glorified sports boat - the F40 is a real yacht. no question which boat i'd take to sea...but for short course inshore racing...sorry mate, the wheel has turned

cheers,

I think you will see above if you read it was talking about the F400 not the M38. I too have been on the M38 and as yet I am not convinced about its offshore capabilities. If you can not do an east coast race what good is it other than club racing. It is not competitive under IRC and it will be years before they have enough boats to do class racing. So you want to pay $400k+ for a club racer?




I'm going to do Sydney - Southport in my MC38.

Look at it this way. This boat's 38 feet so it has got to me more comfortable than the 32ft Cone of Silence. And drier !

Not sure about it's offshore capabilities Edake and Chris? I bet both you guys have raced along that bit of coast in 31 footers before you got soft !!

Hopefully the Dark Star will do it too. One design offshore racing in boats that plane will be great. C'mon Edake and Chris - you know you want to come.

Pittwater to Newcastle is on in mid April why dont you do that for a start?

#40 MSA

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:05 AM

[/quote]
Would be great to see a Farr 40 OD up there as well especially on the windward/leeward courses. The guys with sprits will have to do a lot of zig zagging downwind.
[/quote]
hi edake

as you know, i've always been a massive fan of the F40...but having been there on both boats i'm sorry to say that imho the M38 will have a F40 for breakfast on any course configuration

i know you don't want to hear that, but the only consolation is that the M38 is 'just' a glorified sports boat - the F40 is a real yacht. no question which boat i'd take to sea...but for short course inshore racing...sorry mate, the wheel has turned

cheers,
[/quote]
I think you will see above if you read it was talking about the F400 not the M38. I too have been on the M38 and as yet I am not convinced about its offshore capabilities. If you can not do an east coast race what good is it other than club racing. It is not competitive under IRC and it will be years before they have enough boats to do class racing. So you want to pay $400k+ for a club racer?
[/quote]



I'm going to do Sydney - Southport in my MC38.

Look at it this way. This boat's 38 feet so it has got to me more comfortable than the 32ft Cone of Silence. And drier !

Not sure about it's offshore capabilities Edake and Chris? I bet both you guys have raced along that bit of coast in 31 footers before you got soft !!

Hopefully the Dark Star will do it too. One design offshore racing in boats that plane will be great. C'mon Edake and Chris - you know you want to come.
[/quote]
Pittwater to Newcastle is on in mid April why dont you do that for a start?
[/quote]

Im presuming because he has sailed ridiculous distances in a 30 footer and thinks his new ride can do it aswell. Hell id do it too!!

Just wondering why the Farr 400 is trying to do what the Soto 40 has already done.. while being faster and cheaper and looking much nicer and 2 x established high level fleets.

The MC 38 price point is defiantly something to attract people to a local OD fleet. Much cheaper than a Farr 400 and plenty of room for the ladies on a beer can race!. Cant wait to get my trial cert back on the 38 and sell the current ride I'm running!

#41 Mr Happy

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:16 AM



Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?


Really? I'm interested to see how Doghouse feels about your post. I'm not even a stakeholder in the class and I know that this statement you made is incorrect... in multiple ways.


Yeah, I'm not getting involved with this silliness for the reason below.

May want to get your facts straight...



It is kind of annoying to get a brush off, so I will take you to task.

If I should get my facts straight - you tell us the facts.

Of the Farr 400 'fleet' at Key West, how many were actually owned by the person listed as Owner/Skipper on the results and how many were lent/chartered to that owner/skipper?

#42 us7070

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:35 AM

I understand that a new Farr 400 has been purchased by a western LIS sailor.

#43 MSA

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:42 AM

Red chartered a factory owned boat correct???

#44 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:49 AM

In any event, all bets will be settled in Charleston. Well, not really, but at least they are all racing against eachother.

Remembering years past and other events, Meridian and Spaceman are well-sailed club-level boats in their previous iterations (F36 and 1D35 IIRC) while Carbonado's owners are middle of the pack M24 racers. The F40s are OnDeck boats, so they are gonna be well off the pace of any privately owned F40.

Fun.

Attached Files



#45 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:32 AM

What exactly are OnDeck boats?

#46 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:36 AM

What exactly are OnDeck boats?


http://www.ondeck.co.uk/

#47 Yard Dog

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:08 AM



Interesting reading.. this thread.

Does the the MC38 or the Farr 400 design hit the mark?

I know from personal experience that there were large lisence fees priced into a Farr 40 for both the Farr office and for Stagg's efforts. The high price of a Farr 40 worked because the Farr 40 was inspired leading edge design and had no competitors. Now they are repeating the formula with the Farr 400; but is the design leading edge? The construction is decidedly mid tech, the boat is expensive and is it the most fun design in its class?

I'm biased because I sail with Jamie on his various Cones and the latest MC38 Cone is seriously quick and surprisingly easy to sail. I'm still amazed the Farr 400 needs a grinder for the kites. For me, the grinder only has negative implications. If they really need it then the boat is loading up too much downwind. Having a bigger bloke off the rail and on the grinder is not fast either. I've trimmed the kite on the MC38 in some fresh breezes and the boat just accelerates and never needs more than the primary with a winch handle.

The F400 will only come out and play here, when it has it's paid world class sailors steering and pulling strings, yet we need regular racing to make observations. This expensive style of marketing can work to launch a class; but in the end the owners will run the class and may not appreciate the locked in high margins.


Not going to wade into the debate, but just to highlight that the main point of the pedestal is not power when trimming the kite (although it helps with that as well) but line speed for gybes, hoists, and drops.


Roger that; not sure how it helps with a drop though. Its a nice bit of bling, but I just haven't observed a need on Cone yet. Perhaps the loads are lower. ..and if you had one wouldn't you put it aft?

McConaghy is now offering a Quattro upgrade for the primaries, based, I guess, on the experience of the Aussie boats or on questions of perspective buyers concerning the lack of a pedestal. I am not a fan of Quattros so its good to hear they are not necessary.

#48 RumLine

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:08 PM

I understand that a new Farr 400 has been purchased by a western LIS sailor.


Yes, Barry Gold got rid of his J/122 and picked up a Farr 400. So far it looks like we're going to have at least one Farr 400, a few Farr 40s, a Tripp 41 and a few Kers on the line at the AYC Spring Series.

http://yachtscoring.com/current_event_entries.cfm?eID=581

#49 Edake

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:40 AM

hey, i'm just remembering what the gripes were when it came out publicly, followed by Dee's equally insincere analysis for the F400, both with some kind of table attached. I don't blame them - it's smart marketing to take aim at the new kid on the block/old established brand - just silly to compare anything to brand new boats, because you know they will get better and then your words will be used against you.

I couldn't care less, though I will do my best to judge speeds based on what I find out this week in STT.

Clean - I will be interested to see what you come up with so long as the races are windward/leewrad configs. I saw the F400 here personally on the water against the F40 in about 15kns and I can tell you that they made no gains upwind and directly downwind the F400 was slightly ahead after doing a hell of a lot of reaching to and fro. Yes I am comparing to the F40 champion but the helm on the F400 I am told was Dee Smith and Matt Allen did come 2nd in the F40's too. So I am sure they had some hired guns on board the F400 to match the maximum 4 pros on the F40!

#50 paulewill

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 12:34 PM


hey, i'm just remembering what the gripes were when it came out publicly, followed by Dee's equally insincere analysis for the F400, both with some kind of table attached. I don't blame them - it's smart marketing to take aim at the new kid on the block/old established brand - just silly to compare anything to brand new boats, because you know they will get better and then your words will be used against you.

I couldn't care less, though I will do my best to judge speeds based on what I find out this week in STT.

Clean - I will be interested to see what you come up with so long as the races are windward/leewrad configs. I saw the F400 here personally on the water against the F40 in about 15kns and I can tell you that they made no gains upwind and directly downwind the F400 was slightly ahead after doing a hell of a lot of reaching to and fro. Yes I am comparing to the F40 champion but the helm on the F400 I am told was Dee Smith and Matt Allen did come 2nd in the F40's too. So I am sure they had some hired guns on board the F400 to match the maximum 4 pros on the F40!



Are you sure that your sure?

#51 paulewill

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:10 PM

well? are you sure? or are you checking your facts?

#52 Polaris

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:18 PM


hey, i'm just remembering what the gripes were when it came out publicly, followed by Dee's equally insincere analysis for the F400, both with some kind of table attached. I don't blame them - it's smart marketing to take aim at the new kid on the block/old established brand - just silly to compare anything to brand new boats, because you know they will get better and then your words will be used against you.

I couldn't care less, though I will do my best to judge speeds based on what I find out this week in STT.

Clean - I will be interested to see what you come up with so long as the races are windward/leewrad configs. I saw the F400 here personally on the water against the F40 in about 15kns and I can tell you that they made no gains upwind and directly downwind the F400 was slightly ahead after doing a hell of a lot of reaching to and fro. Yes I am comparing to the F40 champion but the helm on the F400 I am told was Dee Smith and Matt Allen did come 2nd in the F40's too. So I am sure they had some hired guns on board the F400 to match the maximum 4 pros on the F40!


I agree, the F40 with MH sym kites are tough to beat on W/L's. Plus, the 40 is a better IRC design IMHO. The 400 will set the 40 back pretty good on a P/P event.

#53 paulewill

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:23 AM


hey, i'm just remembering what the gripes were when it came out publicly, followed by Dee's equally insincere analysis for the F400, both with some kind of table attached. I don't blame them - it's smart marketing to take aim at the new kid on the block/old established brand - just silly to compare anything to brand new boats, because you know they will get better and then your words will be used against you.

I couldn't care less, though I will do my best to judge speeds based on what I find out this week in STT.

Clean - I will be interested to see what you come up with so long as the races are windward/leewrad configs. I saw the F400 here personally on the water against the F40 in about 15kns and I can tell you that they made no gains upwind and directly downwind the F400 was slightly ahead after doing a hell of a lot of reaching to and fro. Yes I am comparing to the F40 champion but the helm on the F400 I am told was Dee Smith and Matt Allen did come 2nd in the F40's too. So I am sure they had some hired guns on board the F400 to match the maximum 4 pros on the F40!



You checked your facts yet mate?

#54 you wont make it

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:12 AM



hey, i'm just remembering what the gripes were when it came out publicly, followed by Dee's equally insincere analysis for the F400, both with some kind of table attached. I don't blame them - it's smart marketing to take aim at the new kid on the block/old established brand - just silly to compare anything to brand new boats, because you know they will get better and then your words will be used against you.

I couldn't care less, though I will do my best to judge speeds based on what I find out this week in STT.

Clean - I will be interested to see what you come up with so long as the races are windward/leewrad configs. I saw the F400 here personally on the water against the F40 in about 15kns and I can tell you that they made no gains upwind and directly downwind the F400 was slightly ahead after doing a hell of a lot of reaching to and fro. Yes I am comparing to the F40 champion but the helm on the F400 I am told was Dee Smith and Matt Allen did come 2nd in the F40's too. So I am sure they had some hired guns on board the F400 to match the maximum 4 pros on the F40!



You checked your facts yet mate?


Think he has checked his facts.......... and found out just how wrong he was!!!

#55 Edake

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:44 AM



hey, i'm just remembering what the gripes were when it came out publicly, followed by Dee's equally insincere analysis for the F400, both with some kind of table attached. I don't blame them - it's smart marketing to take aim at the new kid on the block/old established brand - just silly to compare anything to brand new boats, because you know they will get better and then your words will be used against you.

I couldn't care less, though I will do my best to judge speeds based on what I find out this week in STT.

Clean - I will be interested to see what you come up with so long as the races are windward/leewrad configs. I saw the F400 here personally on the water against the F40 in about 15kns and I can tell you that they made no gains upwind and directly downwind the F400 was slightly ahead after doing a hell of a lot of reaching to and fro. Yes I am comparing to the F40 champion but the helm on the F400 I am told was Dee Smith and Matt Allen did come 2nd in the F40's too. So I am sure they had some hired guns on board the F400 to match the maximum 4 pros on the F40!



You checked your facts yet mate?

I do not wish to get into a slanging match as to who are pros and who are not! That I leave up to god nowadays. I reckon that Matt is good enough to be considered one of the best helms in Sydney and Dee Smith would certainly be a pro. So if you were on board that day I know you are no slouch at all and are an exceptionally talented sailor with great skills in skiffs as wells as yachts (being a senior member of the Tow Truck team).

#56 mh111

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:54 AM

just heard today that the F400 has got an IRC rating, and will be doing port stephens regatta in IRC. the cone will also have an IRC by then and we're already entered in IRC

so this means there will finally be a match up between the F400 and M38

as it's W/L stuff it's a real just a pity there is no F40 there

funnily enough the F40's are doing the PHS passage racing ! :lol:

cheers,

#57 Mr Happy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:18 PM


The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year


If you don't sail against any other boats at Key West you are unlikely to have 'issues' with other boats being quicker !!

That F400 had its own start at Key West impressed me - until I found out it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?


So lets wrap up this thread.

I notice Dog House, who seems to be the sales guy for Farr 400, and the other Farr 400 guys who went in to bat for it on this forum have never denied "at Key West ......... it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest". He just tried to brush it off.

Plus another poster confirmed he knew of one that was chartered. So I think we can say that one is true and at Key West the fleet of 5, or most of it, was owned by builder and not by the people who entered as 'owner/skipper'. (Which kind of confirms the 'smoke and mirrors comment' - as I thought they had actually been purchased by owners and i think many others did too. )

Likewise, they never denied they avoided racing the MC 38s at Sydney Harbour Regatta and pulled out of a race with the MC 38 and Farr 40 when getting thrashed the other day.

So I think we can say those two are true as well.

There will be further show downs between these boats but the thread seems to say the MC 38 is (probably) faster than the Farr 400 costs and about half as much. It also says the hottest of the Farr 40s are really well developed and quick for a 15 year old design windward leeward (but a lot slower reaching. Obviously, just as in one design, the quality of the sailors will have a lot to do with it and from time to time, the Farr 400 might beat the MC 38 and Farr 40 - particularly if they have a gun crew, like they do in Australia.

Mr Clean is going to be reporting on yet another showdown between the Farr 400, MC 38 and Farr 40 and that will be interesting to see. S

Also, one poster pointed out that at lot of the price of the Farr 400 probaby goes into marketing and commissions - which might go some way towards explaining the price difference.

Which all leaves the original question up in the air? I will put it another way. Is the Farr 400 to slow to succeed against the half as expensive MC 38 or is charging twice as much and then spending that margin on marketing, what makes a successful class?

#58 Tyler Durden

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:44 PM

To fan the flames, what is the last successful Farr RACE BOAT design?

I like Beau Geste, but it is aimed as more of a cruiser.

VO70s - all terrible
Farr 11s - total fail
Farr 36 - cool boat, marketing fail
Farr 25 - marketing fail, not enough boats sailing to even tell if the boat is any good
Beneteau 10R/34.7 - fail
Farr 42 IRC - fail

Their cruisier Beneteaus are the only boats in the last 10 years that I can think of that have been really successful?

Farr 400 - early days, but boy does it ever look like Abu Dhabi...

#59 Left Hook

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:59 PM



The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year


If you don't sail against any other boats at Key West you are unlikely to have 'issues' with other boats being quicker !!

That F400 had its own start at Key West impressed me - until I found out it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?


So lets wrap up this thread.

I notice Dog House, who seems to be the sales guy for Farr 400, and the other Farr 400 guys who went in to bat for it on this forum have never denied "at Key West ......... it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest". He just tried to brush it off.

Plus another poster confirmed he knew of one that was chartered. So I think we can say that one is true and at Key West the fleet of 5, or most of it, was owned by builder and not by the people who entered as 'owner/skipper'. (Which kind of confirms the 'smoke and mirrors comment' - as I thought they had actually been purchased by owners and i think many others did too. )

Likewise, they never denied they avoided racing the MC 38s at Sydney Harbour Regatta and pulled out of a race with the MC 38 and Farr 40 when getting thrashed the other day.

So I think we can say those two are true as well.

There will be further show downs between these boats but the thread seems to say the MC 38 is (probably) faster than the Farr 400 costs and about half as much. It also says the hottest of the Farr 40s are really well developed and quick for a 15 year old design windward leeward (but a lot slower reaching. Obviously, just as in one design, the quality of the sailors will have a lot to do with it and from time to time, the Farr 400 might beat the MC 38 and Farr 40 - particularly if they have a gun crew, like they do in Australia.

Mr Clean is going to be reporting on yet another showdown between the Farr 400, MC 38 and Farr 40 and that will be interesting to see. S

Also, one poster pointed out that at lot of the price of the Farr 400 probaby goes into marketing and commissions - which might go some way towards explaining the price difference.

Which all leaves the original question up in the air? I will put it another way. Is the Farr 400 to slow to succeed against the half as expensive MC 38 or is charging twice as much and then spending that margin on marketing, what makes a successful class?



Good god but you're almost as delusional as they come.

#60 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

had a peak at the Carkeek 40 and a nice interview with Shaun Carkeek. Lovely little rocket, much more to come.

#61 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:46 PM

You'll shit your pants when you see the pricing for the Carkeek though.

#62 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:51 PM

He told me the base "Race" boat is around 460k USD. There are two different hull construction methods, both carbon - one a full pre-preg and the other infused. The pre-preg is the "GP" version, and runs more. It is really not much boat - super wide deck and work space and plenty of rig and a big sprit, but nothing at all to the boat down below, and presumably, low loads on everything. Carkeek said 8-10 crew for buoy racing, 7 for a distance race, and the boat is built to an ISO spec that should give people confidence taking it offshore.

I don't know what 460 turns into when you get into the options (like the 'spinning wheel of death' takedown line system), and electronics and sails. I guess you could spend 600k if you really got into it.

#63 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:58 PM

I've got the pricing and brochures at home. From memory I think the base "race" boat will be north of 460k USD. Will check them out later, also I think 600k would be a conservative estimate of the spend. But it's still a way cool boat. PICS NOW!!!!!!

Looking at the render that was on the front page a couple of weeks ago and the renders on the website, the boat looks a shitload like there final generation GP42's Islas Canarias and Caser Madrid.

#64 Presuming Ed

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:47 AM



#65 i_am_sexy_god

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:32 AM

but who has the bling bling stanchions?

#66 fdsailor

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:51 AM

Carkeek looks nice. Was just watching some GP42 videos...such a shame they never took off

#67 miahmouse

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:33 AM




The F400 class didnt seem to have any issues at Key West this year


If you don't sail against any other boats at Key West you are unlikely to have 'issues' with other boats being quicker !!

That F400 had its own start at Key West impressed me - until I found out it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest.

Lots of money being thrown at marketing - perhaps that is why they cost so much?


So lets wrap up this thread.

I notice Dog House, who seems to be the sales guy for Farr 400, and the other Farr 400 guys who went in to bat for it on this forum have never denied "at Key West ......... it was all marketing and the builder owned the 'fleet'. Apparently, only 1 has actually been sold to a proper customer - the other is a sales/marketing 'deal' and the builder owns the rest". He just tried to brush it off.

Plus another poster confirmed he knew of one that was chartered. So I think we can say that one is true and at Key West the fleet of 5, or most of it, was owned by builder and not by the people who entered as 'owner/skipper'. (Which kind of confirms the 'smoke and mirrors comment' - as I thought they had actually been purchased by owners and i think many others did too. )

Likewise, they never denied they avoided racing the MC 38s at Sydney Harbour Regatta and pulled out of a race with the MC 38 and Farr 40 when getting thrashed the other day.

So I think we can say those two are true as well.

There will be further show downs between these boats but the thread seems to say the MC 38 is (probably) faster than the Farr 400 costs and about half as much. It also says the hottest of the Farr 40s are really well developed and quick for a 15 year old design windward leeward (but a lot slower reaching. Obviously, just as in one design, the quality of the sailors will have a lot to do with it and from time to time, the Farr 400 might beat the MC 38 and Farr 40 - particularly if they have a gun crew, like they do in Australia.

Mr Clean is going to be reporting on yet another showdown between the Farr 400, MC 38 and Farr 40 and that will be interesting to see. S

Also, one poster pointed out that at lot of the price of the Farr 400 probaby goes into marketing and commissions - which might go some way towards explaining the price difference.

Which all leaves the original question up in the air? I will put it another way. Is the Farr 400 to slow to succeed against the half as expensive MC 38 or is charging twice as much and then spending that margin on marketing, what makes a successful class?



Good god but you're almost as delusional as they come.


This...

#68 doghouse

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:13 PM

<snip>


I am not any sort of salesman, I just sail on one. If you ever want the actual facts, don't hesitate to contact me through PM. If not, I am not getting into some idiotic internet shitfest here over it.

#69 SR CHIEF (RET)

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:48 PM

Smile and Wave a Bene first 40 beat the 2 Farr 400s today by 5 minutes.

#70 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:01 PM

What were the conditions like?

#71 SR CHIEF (RET)

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:02 PM

What were the conditions like?

10-15 kts, seas less than 1 meter

#72 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:17 PM

Not a bad start for the Carkeek 40 against the Farr 400s either

#73 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:20 PM

Smile and Wave is in CSA2, the F400 is CSA1. We're sailing the same course just a few minutes later, we did a CSA corrected time grid and the Budget M24 is first overall across the CSA spin fleets, we're second, and the other Melges is third after three races.

Great racing here in St. Thomas, with a great crew and Jaime Torres is a hell of a driver and very good owner. We had a solid first race but got beat on corrected by something like 15 seconds, another Puerto Rican boat, the J/105 Dark Star sailed a great race and got us (we owed them 8 minutes and change). Second race we slayed it despite starting at the wrong end of the line, that was the last mistake we made of the race. Tactician Anson Mulder is on his game, and is one of the best at this size of cruiser/racer. Anson just won St. Martin last month on the J/120 El Ocaso (beating our ass in the process on Smile and Wave).

On our way in, we saw the tragedy that is Highland Fling. Sir Lord Irving Laidlaw's gorgeous royal blue TP52 dropped her rig. More to come shortly, including the bizarre way they lost it.

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#74 SR CHIEF (RET)

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:21 PM

Not a bad start for the Carkeek 40 against the Farr 400s either

yes I like the 40 and like the Carkeek 45 better! HPR rule looks to shake things up...

#75 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

I did a 12 minute interview with Shaun Carkeek that I'll get to as soon as I can, but the boat is a goddamned weapon. Significantly faster on the course than anything in that class, and just looks the business. Carkeek wanted a TP52 that's 40 feet long, and that's what he's got, without a lot of the compromises that the McC had to deal with to stay at a price point, or the F400 did to promote one design racing (shipping, etc.).

I think these things are going to catch on quicker than you might think, especially if they show some offshore chops on the Bermuda. With the support of some heavy hitters in the Northeast, this could be the boat that gets a lot of late adopters out of their heavy boats and into the modern age of racing.

#76 Trevor B

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:16 AM

To fan the flames, what is the last successful Farr RACE BOAT design?

I like Beau Geste, but it is aimed as more of a cruiser.

VO70s - all terrible
Farr 11s - total fail
Farr 36 - cool boat, marketing fail
Farr 25 - marketing fail, not enough boats sailing to even tell if the boat is any good
Beneteau 10R/34.7 - fail
Farr 42 IRC - fail

Their cruisier Beneteaus are the only boats in the last 10 years that I can think of that have been really successful?

Farr 400 - early days, but boy does it ever look like Abu Dhabi...


These boats have done pretty well:
Living Doll IRC-55
Rosebud TP-65
Foncia, Paprec, etc Open-60s

#77 Edake

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:13 AM

just heard today that the F400 has got an IRC rating, and will be doing port stephens regatta in IRC. the cone will also have an IRC by then and we're already entered in IRC

so this means there will finally be a match up between the F400 and M38

as it's W/L stuff it's a real just a pity there is no F40 there

funnily enough the F40's are doing the PHS passage racing ! :lol:

cheers,

they are not Farr 40 OD's

#78 Wandering Geo

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:45 AM

Highland Fling. Sir Lord Irving Laidlaw's gorgeous royal blue TP52

Are you sure?
Seahorse says 53 ft, not a TP and with twin rudders.
Old trick, design a rating boat slightly bigger to beat the OD boats to the top mark.

#79 Trickypig

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:41 AM


<snip>


I am not any sort of salesman, I just sail on one. If you ever want the actual facts, don't hesitate to contact me through PM. If not, I am not getting into some idiotic internet shitfest here over it.



I'd like to hear your `facts' too .... and I'm sure a few other posters here do too!

Bloody hell, over 10,700 posts here on Anarchy and suddenly you've got nothing to say? That has to be a record.

#80 Presuming Ed

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:12 AM

Seahorse says 53 ft, not a TP and with twin rudders.
Old trick, design a rating boat slightly bigger to beat the OD boats to the top mark.


http://www.reichel-pugh.com/reichelpugh-yacht-design/2011/05/reichelpugh-yacht-design-irc52-highland-fling-xii-in-construction-at-mcconaghy-boats.html

#81 doghouse

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:44 AM



<snip>


I am not any sort of salesman, I just sail on one. If you ever want the actual facts, don't hesitate to contact me through PM. If not, I am not getting into some idiotic internet shitfest here over it.



I'd like to hear your `facts' too .... and I'm sure a few other posters here do too!

Bloody hell, over 10,700 posts here on Anarchy and suddenly you've got nothing to say? That has to be a record.


Feel free to drop me a line, sport.

#82 Matt B

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:08 PM




<snip>


I am not any sort of salesman, I just sail on one. If you ever want the actual facts, don't hesitate to contact me through PM. If not, I am not getting into some idiotic internet shitfest here over it.



I'd like to hear your `facts' too .... and I'm sure a few other posters here do too!

Bloody hell, over 10,700 posts here on Anarchy and suddenly you've got nothing to say? That has to be a record.


Feel free to drop me a line, sport.

I think his point is why have you all the sudden stopped gloating about the boat you sail on, and from all accounts had a part in the decision for your team to purchase one? Not long ago you were first to respond about anything Farr 400. Now... Not so much. Did the marketing machine "Left Hook" you and ask that you stop talking?
Don't get me wrong. I liked the fact that you were so willing to share your opinion. Especially as one of the few here who have sailed any of the boats mentioned. It added quite a bit to this discussion. It is odd how silent you have become so quickly.
Why do you get so uppety towards that last poster, big guy.

#83 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:15 PM

Ingrid Abery photos, lots more at www.ingridabery.com

Attached Files



#84 doghouse

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:23 PM





<snip>


I am not any sort of salesman, I just sail on one. If you ever want the actual facts, don't hesitate to contact me through PM. If not, I am not getting into some idiotic internet shitfest here over it.



I'd like to hear your `facts' too .... and I'm sure a few other posters here do too!

Bloody hell, over 10,700 posts here on Anarchy and suddenly you've got nothing to say? That has to be a record.


Feel free to drop me a line, sport.

I think his point is why have you all the sudden stopped gloating about the boat you sail on, and from all accounts had a part in the decision for your team to purchase one? Not long ago you were first to respond about anything Farr 400. Now... Not so much. Did the marketing machine "Left Hook" you and ask that you stop talking?
Don't get me wrong. I liked the fact that you were so willing to share your opinion. Especially as one of the few here who have sailed any of the boats mentioned. It added quite a bit to this discussion. It is odd how silent you have become so quickly.
Why do you get so uppety towards that last poster, big guy.


I never gloated about anything, but I have said all there is to be said. It's all there to go look at. Do you just want me to repeat it? Nobody has asked me stop talking, if anything, they probably would like me to go on. I have just tired of arguing with idiots and trolls. If anyone has a genuine interest in anything going on, the offer is out there. I would be happy to talk seriously about the boat, class, and any other questions anyone may have.

If anyone should stop being uppity, it's you Baldwin. You have something to say about just about everything these days it seems, kiddo.

#85 walterbshaffer

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:13 PM

I would be happy to talk seriously about the boat, class, and any other questions anyone may have.


So what are the weaknesses of the 400 relative to the 10R?

#86 NYBOZO1

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:19 PM

Now there is an arrogant attitude.

Can't afford this 500k boat, so we shouldn't voice an opinion?

I have known the owner of a 400 for a long time. Happily he is a much classier guy than you.

#87 opusone

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:44 PM

Now there is an arrogant attitude.

Can't afford this 500k boat, so we shouldn't voice an opinion?

I have known the owner of a 400 for a long time. Happily he is a much classier guy than you.


That's fine - you do not know me. By skin in the game I mean owners and crew who take time away from their family and friends to race on the Farr 400.

#88 Trickypig

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 01:18 AM




<snip>


I am not any sort of salesman, I just sail on one. If you ever want the actual facts, don't hesitate to contact me through PM. If not, I am not getting into some idiotic internet shitfest here over it.



I'd like to hear your `facts' too .... and I'm sure a few other posters here do too!

Bloody hell, over 10,700 posts here on Anarchy and suddenly you've got nothing to say? That has to be a record.


Feel free to drop me a line, sport.


This is a forum, you know.. a public place to express opinions. I'm not here for a private chat.

Its been done before (eg J24s) where a number of boats are built and the first few of these get lent or sold cheap to encourage the class off the ground. Hopefully Matt Allen paid less than the exorbitant F400 price for buying the 1st one in Oz. I have no problem with that.

The question is simple. Were the 5 boats raced in Key West already sold? This is Sailing Anarchy. You can't be offended by that question, surely?

McConaghys WILL confirm to me that all the MC38s built or being built in only 5 months are sold. They're up to about 8 now and the order rate is steady.

Harry Dunning was instrumental in the Mumm 30 and Farr 40 designs when he worked at the Farr office and I think he has got the MC38 right as well.. but that's just my PUBLIC opinion.

#89 brutus

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 02:04 AM

For sure two of them are charters as they are sailing in the Rolex regatta in the virgin islands with different owners.
As for the other three I would assume that they are privately owned. I am sure for most boats the price depends on the commitment and at what time it comes in.
I would be happy if I were an owner to see the builder/class busting so much as to get some traction. They have been traveling to both coasts in the US ans well as the Caribbean.
They all look like cools boats to me.

#90 Trickypig

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 02:53 AM

For sure two of them are charters as they are sailing in the Rolex regatta in the virgin islands with different owners.
As for the other three I would assume that they are privately owned. I am sure for most boats the price depends on the commitment and at what time it comes in.
I would be happy if I were an owner to see the builder/class busting so much as to get some traction. They have been traveling to both coasts in the US ans well as the Caribbean.
They all look like cools boats to me.


I'm reckoning on one having been sold at that regatta; I'm mean to a private buyer and not between marketing entities or promises of a sale etc. That's all that anyone has come up with in the last week.

If Farr Marketing doesn't clarify how everyone participated in the regatta, they know that the general sailing public, when reading the press releases, will assume the 5 boats were sailed by owners in the 1st major regatta for the class.

Surely this is cynical?

#91 PeterHuston

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 03:40 AM


Now there is an arrogant attitude.

Can't afford this 500k boat, so we shouldn't voice an opinion?

I have known the owner of a 400 for a long time. Happily he is a much classier guy than you.


That's fine - you do not know me. By skin in the game I mean owners and crew who take time away from their family and friends to race on the Farr 400.


Opus and Bozo...this is one of those times I don't like SA and screen names, because knowing both of you, seeing you snipe at each other is exactly the opposite reaction I know would happen if you sailed on each other's boat, or on a cool boat like say a Farr 11s as a crew.

You'd both enjoy the experience of sailing with each other, because I enjoy sailing with both of you. Perhaps you should sail together sometime in April.

Now, as DoRag would say: Can we all get along?

#92 Ballast Technician

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 03:51 AM





<snip>


I am not any sort of salesman, I just sail on one. If you ever want the actual facts, don't hesitate to contact me through PM. If not, I am not getting into some idiotic internet shitfest here over it.



I'd like to hear your `facts' too .... and I'm sure a few other posters here do too!

Bloody hell, over 10,700 posts here on Anarchy and suddenly you've got nothing to say? That has to be a record.


Feel free to drop me a line, sport.


This is a forum, you know.. a public place to express opinions. I'm not here for a private chat.

Its been done before (eg J24s) where a number of boats are built and the first few of these get lent or sold cheap to encourage the class off the ground. Hopefully Matt Allen paid less than the exorbitant F400 price for buying the 1st one in Oz. I have no problem with that.

The question is simple. Were the 5 boats raced in Key West already sold? This is Sailing Anarchy. You can't be offended by that question, surely?

McConaghys WILL confirm to me that all the MC38s built or being built in only 5 months are sold. They're up to about 8 now and the order rate is steady.

Harry Dunning was instrumental in the Mumm 30 and Farr 40 designs when he worked at the Farr office and I think he has got the MC38 right as well.. but that's just my PUBLIC opinion.


So what is the problem with such fleet building measures? It is just the builder/dealers/etc. investing in the future of the class, just like dealer boats, introductory prices, financing, etc. Very common, especially for bigger shops that have the resources to do so (Beneteau, J Boats, etc.).
Pretty much key for (aspiring) OD boats.

And on what basis do you consider the F400 to be "exorbitantly priced"?

#93 jhc

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:19 AM

So what is the problem with such fleet building measures? It is just the builder/dealers/etc. investing in the future of the class, just like dealer boats, introductory prices, financing, etc. Very common, especially for bigger shops that have the resources to do so (Beneteau, J Boats, etc.).
Pretty much key for (aspiring) OD boats.

And on what basis do you consider the F400 to be "exorbitantly priced"?
[/quote]

"So, what's the problem with a cynical marketing scheme that assumes potential customers can be lead to believe the class has already reached some kind of critical mass? Absolutely nothing, it's pretty much key...blah, blah..."

(fixed it for you...)

#94 Trickypig

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:33 AM

"So, what's the problem with a cynical marketing scheme that assumes potential customers can be lead to believe the class has already reached some kind of critical mass? Absolutely nothing, it's pretty much key...blah, blah..."

(fixed it for you...)

thanks for that...

#95 Trickypig

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 06:56 AM

And on what basis do you consider the F400 to be "exorbitantly priced"?



Well, the Farr 400 is $US395k ex factory and the MC38 is $US248k ex factory. When you spec them up to class rules and ship them, the Farr gets much more expensive.

You could run an owner's regatta with 5 x MC38s, go faster and have more than $750k to throw at parties over the next few years (and that's just from 5 boats)

#96 The Cone

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 07:43 AM

And on what basis do you consider the F400 to be "exorbitantly priced"?



Well, the Farr 400 is $US395k ex factory and the MC38 is $US248k ex factory. When you spec them up to class rules and ship them, the Farr gets much more expensive.

You could run an owner's regatta with 5 x MC38s, go faster and have more than $750k to throw at parties over the next few years (and that's just from 5 boats)


Farr 400s are actually US$420,000 ex-factory with grinder. As the others have grinders and you are supposed to be racing one design, I guess they are not really an 'option' so not sure why they are not quoted in the base price.

So if you add gst and duty, landed in Australia the prices excluding shipping. sails and instruments are:

Mc 38 $285,000
Farr 400 $483,000

Difference in price $200,000.

Difference in performance ??????????

The guy who said the Farr 400 was double the price of the MC 38 was exaggerating - it is only 1.7 times !!

#97 Ballast Technician

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:53 AM


For sure two of them are charters as they are sailing in the Rolex regatta in the virgin islands with different owners.
As for the other three I would assume that they are privately owned. I am sure for most boats the price depends on the commitment and at what time it comes in.
I would be happy if I were an owner to see the builder/class busting so much as to get some traction. They have been traveling to both coasts in the US ans well as the Caribbean.
They all look like cools boats to me.


I'm reckoning on one having been sold at that regatta; I'm mean to a private buyer and not between marketing entities or promises of a sale etc. That's all that anyone has come up with in the last week.

If Farr Marketing doesn't clarify how everyone participated in the regatta, they know that the general sailing public, when reading the press releases, will assume the 5 boats were sailed by owners in the 1st major regatta for the class.

Surely this is cynical?


Utter horseshit. Why would the "general sailing public" (and why only they?) assume such a thing? As already mentioned, many boats are sold this way.
Gives prospective buyers (and buyers awaiting delivery) a chance to sail the boat. Also provides class racing for the first few owners. Nothing cynical about it.

#98 Trickypig

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:00 AM



For sure two of them are charters as they are sailing in the Rolex regatta in the virgin islands with different owners.
As for the other three I would assume that they are privately owned. I am sure for most boats the price depends on the commitment and at what time it comes in.
I would be happy if I were an owner to see the builder/class busting so much as to get some traction. They have been traveling to both coasts in the US ans well as the Caribbean.
They all look like cools boats to me.


I'm reckoning on one having been sold at that regatta; I'm mean to a private buyer and not between marketing entities or promises of a sale etc. That's all that anyone has come up with in the last week.

If Farr Marketing doesn't clarify how everyone participated in the regatta, they know that the general sailing public, when reading the press releases, will assume the 5 boats were sailed by owners in the 1st major regatta for the class.

Surely this is cynical?


Utter horseshit. Why would the "general sailing public" (and why only they?) assume such a thing? As already mentioned, many boats are sold this way.
Gives prospective buyers (and buyers awaiting delivery) a chance to sail the boat. Also provides class racing for the first few owners. Nothing cynical about it.


Because we DON'T know. That's why several posters asked the question; yet it has been ignored.

Of course it gives them a chance but SAY SO.

Your post assumes we now all know this, but we don't. .. There lies the `Horseshit' as you call it.

#99 Trickypig

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:13 AM

Mr Technician, you said "Also provides class racing for the first few owners."

So you know of more than one owner at that regatta?

#100 Ballast Technician

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:23 AM


And on what basis do you consider the F400 to be "exorbitantly priced"?



Well, the Farr 400 is $US395k ex factory and the MC38 is $US248k ex factory. When you spec them up to class rules and ship them, the Farr gets much more expensive.

You could run an owner's regatta with 5 x MC38s, go faster and have more than $750k to throw at parties over the next few years (and that's just from 5 boats)


Farr 400s are actually US$420,000 ex-factory with grinder. As the others have grinders and you are supposed to be racing one design, I guess they are not really an 'option' so not sure why they are not quoted in the base price.

So if you add gst and duty, landed in Australia the prices excluding shipping. sails and instruments are:

Mc 38 $285,000
Farr 400 $483,000

Difference in price $200,000.

Difference in performance ??????????

The guy who said the Farr 400 was double the price of the MC 38 was exaggerating - it is only 1.7 times !!


No question, the Farr is considerably more expensive - could very well be twice the price of the MC38 depending on specifics. For some people it might be worth the premium, for (many?) others it will not be. We will see the answer in the market soon.




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