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Does a Ketch rig Cutter lesson the burden on a hull


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#1 reis123

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:51 AM

I have read it does, but, does it? Boat One: 1,500 square feet of sail divided between a main, and a genoa;

Boat two: 1,500 square feet of sail divided between a fore staysail, jib, mainsail, and mizzen,

does boat two have less stress to deal with?

#2 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:55 AM

What the hell is a "ketch rigged cutter"?
I have never heard that term before.

It's a ketch or it's a cutter.

#3 trenace

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:01 AM

Serious question, though I'd never thought of it before now:

What do you call it when the main and the jibs are as with a cutter, but there's also a mizzen, forward of the rudder?

True, a cutter by definition has one mast, when speaking of rigs.

EDIT: Reis hadn't answered yet when I started.

That's no way to get an answer that you want... good luck...

#4 SpongeDeckSquareFoil

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:09 AM


What the hell is a "ketch rigged cutter"?
I have never heard that term before.

It's a ketch or it's a cutter.


Ketch...

Perry your you're sidestepping the question, now, let's tell the class what you know...





Short edit for you reis. Common mistake,though. I usually have my bodyguards fix them for me.

#5 trenace

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:24 AM

I don't always have my bodyguards fix my grammar, but when I do, I have them fix my CA posts.

#6 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:35 AM

reis:
I don't need to tell anyone what I know. I have laid it on the line 5,000 times. I did my best.
Now what have you to show? One thing?

What the hell is a "ketch rigged cutter"?
Kind of like a sloop rigged schooner.
or a Brigantine rigged catboat.
Or a yawl rigged barquentine.
Or a lugger rigged brig.
Or a cutter rigged brigantine.

I thought the old guys (yes, even older then I am) had this terminilogy thing worked out. It's our language.

#7 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 02:49 AM

Tre:
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There are advantages to living up here on the beach.
I'll see that fart and raise you one.

#8 PNW Matt B

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:03 AM

Serious question, though I'd never thought of it before now:

What do you call it when the main and the jibs are as with a cutter, but there's also a mizzen, forward of the rudder?

True, a cutter by definition has one mast, when speaking of rigs.

Wikipedia says it's a cutter-rigged ketch, apparently on the theory that it's a ketch - two masts, forward of the rudder post, etc. - but is modified by being cutter-rigged on the forward mast.

Personally, if we're going to come up with some unique rigs, let's get really archaic with it. Who's up for building a hermaphrodite? Or a snow?

#9 GladysHaywood

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:04 AM

I don't always have my bodyguards fix my grammarPosted Image

#10 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:08 AM

Matt:
That's nice but I prefer to stick to the old ways. It's my personal problem.
I don't like things being "redefined". Just stick to the old definitions and everyone will know what you are saying. If we get into this du jour soup of redefining terms it's going to get get difficult to talk to each other.

#11 PNW Matt B

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:13 AM

Matt:
That's nice but I prefer to stick to the old ways. It's my personal problem.
I don't like things being "redefined". Just stick to the old definitions and everyone will know what you are saying. If we get into this du jour soup of redefining terms it's going to get get difficult to talk to each other.

Hell, it's just Wikipedia. Let's change it. "Bob Perry says ain't no such animal, and we agree with him." Cite Sailing Anarchy as the reference.

(BTW, a snow is a brig with a trysail mast behind the mainmast rigged with a boom for a single fore-and-aft sail, and a hermaphrodite is another name for a brigantine, a two-masted vessel with fore-and-aft rigged mainmast and square-rigged foremast.)

#12 Soņadora

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:22 AM

_ _ _ _123 (the poster formerly known as 'reis123')

you're opening a can of worms with the phrase 'lesson(sic) the burden'. If you want to simplify it, think of a boat as a beam supported at the ends. It doesn't matter where you apply the force on the beam, it affects the whole beam. You can apply 100lb of force on one point or 70lb/30lb in two points, the 'burden' in the beam will be the same. If you're thinking about stays, chainplates, knees, and whatnot, if the boat's designed well it shouldn't matter whether it's single, double, or 10 masted (for an equal amount of sail area anyway).

but that's just from my hazy memory of my structural engineering classes in college 100 years ago

#13 Ishmael

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:31 AM

Reis is gone. Deleted all his bullshit except what has been quoted.

I'm guessing it was Lee Harvey Oswald, or maybe Pope John Paul MCMXLVII.

#14 Soņadora

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:48 AM

well isn't that just juicy!

#15 PNW Matt B

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:53 AM

Attached File  16382300.jpg   158.4K   26 downloads

#16 Soņadora

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:57 AM

Attached File  16382300.jpg   158.4K   26 downloads


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

#17 Ishtarsdog

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:31 AM

OK, everybody gets to ask a dumb question, right? I had an old Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus that was ketch rigged. It was a surprisingly good sailor as long as you didn't want to go upwind. We always wanted to add an inner forestay, and a staysail, and even contemplated a yankee on the furler to see if we could go uphill a little better. What would that have been called?

#18 Ishmael

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:34 AM

OK, everybody gets to ask a dumb question, right? I had an old Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus that was ketch rigged. It was a surprisingly good sailor as long as you didn't want to go upwind. We always wanted to add an inner forestay, and a staysail, and even contemplated a yankee on the furler to see if we could go uphill a little better. What would that have been called?


It would be a blatherskite if you had a topmast on the mizzen.

#19 Ishtarsdog

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:58 AM

Whew. Good thing we didn't!

#20 highndry

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:11 AM

Hiscock discusses various boats and rigs in one of his books.

He called it a cutter rigged ketch,

the cutter gear to help with the uphill stuff

............. and shorter sticks = less rig tension / loads ????????

#21 PNW Matt B

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:15 AM

OK, everybody gets to ask a dumb question, right? I had an old Hallberg-Rassy Rasmus that was ketch rigged. It was a surprisingly good sailor as long as you didn't want to go upwind. We always wanted to add an inner forestay, and a staysail, and even contemplated a yankee on the furler to see if we could go uphill a little better. What would that have been called?

I'd still call it a ketch.

Look, all kidding aside, a cutter is not just a sloop with two headsails, even if that's the most obvious difference. A cutter rig is a single-masted vessel with a large foretriangle - the mast is farther aft than a sloop - with at least two headsails.

Now, to make a cutter-rigged ketch, you'd need to make a cutter with a mast *already* set farther aft than a Marconi sloop would have, and then add a mizzen forward of the rudder post. Your masts are now closer together than a traditional ketch - why would you do that? You wouldn't. It might make sense if you were making a yawl, but not on a ketch.

So taking a ketch rig and adding another headsail is still a ketch. It just has a staysail (or a yankee) forward.

#22 floating dutchman

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:04 AM

From here on forth I'd like people to refer to my sloop as a "yawl rigged schooner" or maybe that should be "schooner rigged yawl". dam I'm not sure now.

But honestly what do you call a ketch with two headsails? I always understood it was a cutter-ketch. I guess I always knew it was just a ketch but adding the cutter in front defines the staysail in the sail plan. Is this wrong?

#23 Salazar

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

I found this definition of a Cutter online (emphasis added):

Cutter: A cutter has one mast like the sloop, and people rightfully confuse the two. A cutter is defined as a yachts whose mast is aft of station 4. Ascertaining whether the mast is aft or forward of station 4 (what if it is at station 4?) is difficult unless you have the design specifications. And even a mast located forward of station 4 with a long bowsprit may be more reasonably referred to as a cutter. The true different is the size of the foretriangle. As such while it might annoy Bob Perry and Jeff_h, most people just give up and call sloops with jibstays cutters. This arrangement is best for reaching or when heavy weather dictates a reefed main. In moderate or light air sailing, forget the inner staysail; it will just backwind the jib and reduce your pointing height.

Posted Image

#24 Shoalcove

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 12:27 PM

I've always just called them a "double headsail ketch" when describing such a beast.

#25 Soņadora

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

I've always just called them a "double headsail ketch" when describing such a beast.



same here

#26 Ishtarsdog

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:35 PM

Works for me. On our old boat, the mast was well forward but a bowsprit had been added. Mast forward seems to equal ketch, so there you go. Thanks!

#27 SemiSalt

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:39 PM


I've always just called them a "double headsail ketch" when describing such a beast.

same here


Seems best to me, too.

Now that is settled, on to the second question of strain on the hull. First answer: What do you care? If the boat is properly designed and built, it won't break. Second answer: The strain on the hull is proportional to the righting moment. If that is the same for the two rigs, then it doesn't matter. Third answer: A lot of the strain comes from the tension put into the stays when the rig is tuned. With the ketch, more stays, more strain. Fourth answer: Yes, the ketch has more total force, but it's spread out more, so it matters less. Fifth answer: Irish whiskey. Sixth answer: Don't bother Bob when he's poaching chicken breasts. Seventh answer: the dickhead wasn't actually concerned with strain on the hull, but strain on the crew.

#28 Kirwan

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:42 PM

Bob's grumpyness aside (and understandable, he's probably written several chapters on this topic alone), it's a fair question. Hey, I always figure stupid questions are much better than stupid mistakes.

The sloop will have a much taller mast than the boat with 2 sticks, so the shroud loads will be higher, and they are all concentrated near the middle of the boat.

However, each of the masts on the Ketch will have a certain amount of shroud load anyway, so the total may be more than the single mast load of the sloop.

But the shroud loads are all athwartships - the sloop needs to be strong for this in one place, the ketch in two - Without any actual facts, I'd wager most Ketch hulls are built more stoutly than the average sloop - but that might just be the cruiser vs racer nature of the designs.


Next, I'd look at the fore-aft loading. We're pretty familiar with a sloop triangle; forestay & backstay. This force wants to break the boat in half at the middle. (i.e: AUS-35)

An earlier post said to consider the keel as a beam, with loading down the length of it - even my rusty statics recall that a distributed load is better for the beam than having all of it in the center.

For the Ketch, this load is more distributed; forestay (or two) to mast, triatic stay to mizzen, and mizzen backstay (or simply more jackstays). And two points of counterpressure (the mast steps)

It's like the comparison of a single spreader mast vs one with double spreaders.



Still, there are really too many other variables to make these generalizations. Thus the thread turned to a terminological tangle of testyness (illiterative too!)

Unless the OP was talking about crew stress, in which case it's bound to be lower with smaller sails. And while I've never sailed a ketch, I'd expect this configuration would be easier to trim for helm balance.

#29 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 03:50 PM

Kir:
The mizzen is relatively short with a wide shroud base due to lack of headsail sheeting concerns. Also, without having to provide for genoa sheeting angles the spreaders on the mizzen can be wide.
That's why you seldom see double spreaders on a mizzen mast. So the compressive load on a mizzen is relatively far less than that on the main mast.

#30 Salazar

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:17 PM

But the shroud loads are all athwartships - the sloop needs to be strong for this in one place, the ketch in two - Without any actual facts, I'd wager most Ketch hulls are built more stoutly than the average sloop - but that might just be the cruiser vs racer nature of the designs.

Consider also that the forces the shrouds transmit to the hull ( heeling forces from wind in the sails) are opposed by the righting force (and lift) provided by the keel (ballast, C of G, whatever, you know what I mean).

In a sloop like mine these forces are aligned. The mast step is on the top of the keel, the chainplates are in line with the mast. The forces in the chain plates are carried directly to the chainplate boxes and grid structure and then to the keel.

With a ketch, the forces transmitted to the hull from the mizzen are far aft of the keel so the hull structure has to be designed to resist the torsional (twisting?) force because of the distance between the centre of resistance to righting moment vs. the aft chainplate location. In actual fact these forces may not be that great compared to the other forces acting on the hull, I don't have the knowledge to answer that one.

Attached Files



#31 reis123

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 04:38 PM

Bob's grumpyness aside (and understandable, he's probably written several chapters on this topic alone), it's a fair question. Hey, I always figure stupid questions are much better than stupid mistakes.

The sloop will have a much taller mast than the boat with 2 sticks, so the shroud loads will be higher, and they are all concentrated near the middle of the boat.

However, each of the masts on the Ketch will have a certain amount of shroud load anyway, so the total may be more than the single mast load of the sloop.

But the shroud loads are all athwartships - the sloop needs to be strong for this in one place, the ketch in two - Without any actual facts, I'd wager most Ketch hulls are built more stoutly than the average sloop - but that might just be the cruiser vs racer nature of the designs.


Next, I'd look at the fore-aft loading. We're pretty familiar with a sloop triangle; forestay & backstay. This force wants to break the boat in half at the middle. (i.e: AUS-35)

An earlier post said to consider the keel as a beam, with loading down the length of it - even my rusty statics recall that a distributed load is better for the beam than having all of it in the center.

For the Ketch, this load is more distributed; forestay (or two) to mast, triatic stay to mizzen, and mizzen backstay (or simply more jackstays). And two points of counterpressure (the mast steps)

It's like the comparison of a single spreader mast vs one with double spreaders.



Still, there are really too many other variables to make these generalizations. Thus the thread turned to a terminological tangle of testyness (illiterative too!)

Unless the OP was talking about crew stress, in which case it's bound to be lower with smaller sails. And while I've never sailed a ketch, I'd expect this configuration would be easier to trim for helm balance.


It really is about so many factors, in some ways, when thinking of such things, one must say, and keeping all other things constant. Split rigs also require, one might imagine, hardware not as prone to requiring ape like strength, or electrical winches, given the sail area indicated at the outset of the question.

I suspect the reason one doesn't see more of them on cruising designs of a certain class boat is because they look more complicated then one of sloop design, when, perhaps they might be considered easier on the crew, and, in some manner too, easier to balance. More combinations of sail for different conditions cannot be a bad thing...




#32 Hiracer

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:19 PM

I've always just called them a "double headsail ketch" when describing such a beast.


To me, a double headed ketch is not the same as a cutter ketch. The forward mast is more aft in the latter to make the headsail bigger.

I have a double headed sloop. The mast is forward, same as a sloop, but I have a stay sail for nasty weather when the jenny is too much and I want the center of effort both lower and aft. But my boat is not a cutter.

A ketch can also have a similar set up, in which case I'm not sure what the proper name is. But I have seen ketches set up with a cutter rig forward, so I know they exist. Just not sure what to call them. In theory, a ketch could also have the double headed foresails, but I have not actually seen one of these (yet).




I don't think there is any question that a ketch with a stay sail will have less CONCENTRATED stress on the hull in comparison to a sloop, if the total sail area remains the same, albeit I can see how the total amount of stress might be approximately the same.

#33 Cavelamb

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 05:24 PM

_ _ _ _123 (the poster formerly known as 'reis123')

you're opening a can of worms with the phrase 'lesson(sic) the burden'. If you want to simplify it, think of a boat as a beam supported at the ends. It doesn't matter where you apply the force on the beam, it affects the whole beam. You can apply 100lb of force on one point or 70lb/30lb in two points, the 'burden' in the beam will be the same. If you're thinking about stays, chainplates, knees, and whatnot, if the boat's designed well it shouldn't matter whether it's single, double, or 10 masted (for an equal amount of sail area anyway).

but that's just from my hazy memory of my structural engineering classes in college 100 years ago



Multiple masts would tend to spread out the applied forces - lessening the strain at the connecting points....

[edit]
But Salizar pointed out that they also invoke a twisting motion that the hull must then resist.

Because of that, since the hull is NOT a beam, the "lessen the burden" is probably more false.

#34 Expat Canuck

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:06 PM

Cutter: [color="#333333"]A cutter has one mast like the sloop, and people rightfully confuse the two. A cutter is defined as a yachts whose mast is aft of station 4. Ascertaining whether the mast is aft or forward of station 4 (what if it is at station 4?) is difficult unless you have the design specifications. And even a mast located forward of station 4 with a long bowsprit may be more reasonably referred to as a cutter.
[/quote]

Is that American Station 4, or European Station 4?

#35 Shoalcove

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:14 PM


I've always just called them a "double headsail ketch" when describing such a beast.


To me, a double headed ketch is not the same as a cutter ketch. The forward mast is more aft in the latter to make the headsail bigger.

I have a double headed sloop. The mast is forward, same as a sloop, but I have a stay sail for nasty weather when the jenny is too much and I want the center of effort both lower and aft. But my boat is not a cutter.

A ketch can also have a similar set up, in which case I'm not sure what the proper name is. But I have seen ketches set up with a cutter rig forward, so I know they exist. Just not sure what to call them. In theory, a ketch could also have the double headed foresails, but I have not actually seen one of these (yet).


I'm not the authority on this but here's my take: a ketch has a jib, main and mizzen. One with a jib, stayail(jumbo), main and mizzen is what I call a double headsail (or headed) ketch. After that, I tend not to worry too much. I suppose you could also say you have a ketch with an inner stayail much like the sloops we both have. My sloop is rigged with an inner staysail as well but I wouldn't call it a cutter.

#36 Salazar

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:15 PM


Is that American Station 4, or European Station 4?

Well, there are 10 stations in this system so divisible by 10 so it must be Metric. Posted Image

Expat, as you know we use still both in Canada so we don't care. Posted Image

Does that make us Bimeasurable? (one for the math geeks).

#37 Expat Canuck

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:21 PM

The fact that we use both in Canada is what gets us into trouble.

It's the same as with dates. Is 1/12/2012 January 12th or December 1st? Depends on the nationality of the author (and the client).

Some places, Frame 0 is the AP, others it's the FP.

#38 Kirwan

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:28 PM

Kir:
The mizzen is relatively short with a wide shroud base due to lack of headsail sheeting concerns. Also, without having to provide for genoa sheeting angles the spreaders on the mizzen can be wide.
That's why you seldom see double spreaders on a mizzen mast. So the compressive load on a mizzen is relatively far less than that on the main mast.


First, please allow me to geek out for a moment that I got a response from Bob Perry! [I'm currently lusting after your Islander 28] And my name's John, the 'Kirwan' part is an old family name I use for forums.


My comment about the spreaders may need more explanation. I was imagining that a sloop is kinda like a single spreader mast on it's side, while a ketch is more like a double spreader stick laid down - in that the bendyness of the straight part (hull or mast) is better supported with two crossmembers. (especially if the masts are connected, which is not always the case)


As for shroud loads, as mentioned, most sloops will have a strong 'girdle' (don't hold me to terminology) in the midsection where the mast, keel and shroud loads are all supported . A ketch needs two of these, although the one for the mizzen can be much less stout - the mainmast support also doesn't need the full strength of the sloop's. And sure, a tall single mast will have high shroud loads when powered up. The ketch's mainmast will have somewhat less, and mizzen less still, but it is possible that the two of those could add up to as much as the single mast loads. Or looked at another way, where strength = weight: The sloop needs one very strong area, while the ketch needs one pretty strong and one sorta strong (10 < 8+3, giving wag's to the relative loads). If for no other reason, I'd expect this to make a Ketch hull heavier than the equivalent sloop.

#39 viktor

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:59 PM

If you add another mast to a cutter,I think one could call it clutter.:)

#40 Paps

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:31 PM

If you add another mast to a cutter,I think one could call it clutter.:)


And that Vic is all that needs to be said on this matter. Or more succinctly, who gives a rats arse?

#41 Bob Perry

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:20 PM

John:
No. I don't think that is correct. There is so much going on with loads from the steering gear that the area where the mizzen is usually stepped is pretty beefy and as I said clearly, earlier, mizzen loads are not high due to all the things I said in that earlier post. The hull laminate of a typical grp boat is usually the same aft as it is amidships so it already has a big safety factor. I have a hard time following your train of thought. I have designed a lot of ketches and I have never added structure to take into account loads from the mizzen mast and I have never seen another designer do it either. Go back and read my earlier post on mizzen loads.

And,,,stop geeeking.

#42 Cavelamb

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 01:50 AM


If you add another mast to a cutter,I think one could call it clutter.:)


And that Vic is all that needs to be said on this matter. Or more succinctly, who gives a rats arse?




No, Vic needs to go stand in the corner for half and hour...

(shameless)

#43 sailSAK

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:15 AM

If you add another mast to a cutter,I think one could call it clutter.:)

Add another forward stay to a sloop and its a slutter.

#44 cancouper

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:41 AM

Ruby is chewing on a petrified bull's dick.


Hopefully, the bull is no longer attached.

#45 Shaggy

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:46 AM

I think what you are looking for is "Bully Stick" (bulls penis dried and fed to dogs as a chew toy" though I really don't know how BOB roles so that may be up for discussion. Expat.... I feel that the below is what you are looking for. ;)



#46 Solen

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 03:59 AM

You all just turned my sloop into a cutter...... Is this a law? who can I sue for the missing fore stay.

#47 Cruisin Loser

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:01 AM

It really is about so many factors, in some ways, when thinking of such things, one must say, and keeping all other things constant. Split rigs also require, one might imagine, hardware not as prone to requiring ape like strength, or electrical winches, given the sail area indicated at the outset of the question.

I suspect the reason one doesn't see more of them on cruising designs of a certain class boat is because they look more complicated then one of sloop design, when, perhaps they might be considered easier on the crew, and, in some manner too, easier to balance. More combinations of sail for different conditions cannot be a bad thing...

Maybe the hardware is smaller, but there's more of it, and more potential failure points.

I had a 41' yawl, nice boat, in cruising mode when the wind piped up we'd just drop the main and cruise jig and jigger. Made for some very casual sailing, quiet, well balanced, not much roll, not much performance either, but we were cruising.

The rigging was a pain in the ass around the cockpit, beaucoups of shrouds, made building a decent cockpit shade a real pain.

BTW, I'd rather sail a 42' boat offshore than daysail a 70' inshore shorthanded.

#48 Paps

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:38 AM

"when thinking of such things, one must say, and keeping all other things constant"


"one might imagine, hardware not as prone to requiring ape like strength, or electrical winches, given the sail area indicated at the outset of the question."


"I suspect the reason one doesn't see more of them on cruising designs of a certain class"


Fer fucks sake! This is the anarchy channel I dialed into isn't it??

#49 Ishmael

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:24 PM

"when thinking of such things, one must say, and keeping all other things constant"


"one might imagine, hardware not as prone to requiring ape like strength, or electrical winches, given the sail area indicated at the outset of the question."


"I suspect the reason one doesn't see more of them on cruising designs of a certain class"


Fer fucks sake! This is the anarchy channel I dialed into isn't it??


We interrupt our regular programming to bring you bafflegab. :(

#50 narecet

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 02:33 PM

Well that is why you do not have an ascot and a blue blazer. Or personal security.

#51 Kirwan

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 04:21 PM

And,,,stop geeeking.



but... but... isn't this whole mental design exercise just a geekfest for us shore (and computer) bound fanatics? Heck, it's raining in San Diego! I'm having fun and might even learn something, so humor me.

I think I see my disconnect... looking at ketch rigs, it seems that a backstay for the mizzen is not common. Besides, this is CA, 'cranking on the backstay' is more of a racing thing.

In fact, the mizzens are still rather small on modern ketches - to my eye, many look sort of 'tacked on', and the mainmast is essentially supported like a sloop, just shorter. I sailed on a yawl and the mizzen was so small we seldom bothered with it.

And that leads to the other confusion in this thread; (and to oversimplify):

A ketch has it's mainmast somewhat forward of where a sloop's would be, and adds a sail on the back, while a cutter has the mast further aft, and adds a sail on the front.


Here's a pretty Ketch with a pair of headsails... that would be a monster of a sloop.


Posted Image

Hmmm.. if I cover the mizzen and stern with my hand, and imagine the transom is at the mizzen step, it looks a lot like a cutter. (mind=blown).



P.S, I've found 'Bull Pistles' at Costco, and they were not as expensive.

#52 Bob Perry

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:50 PM

You mean the back fell off? Probably got hit by a wave.

#53 jackdaw

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:55 PM

Well that is why you do not have an ascot and a blue blazer. Or personal security.


Yes. To protect one from himself, it seems...

#54 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:44 PM

I'll vote for the use of the terms "Slutter" and "Clutter" as defined above. Well done men!

Now, as to a ketch or yawl with an inter-forestay and staysail attached thereto, it doesn't change the name of the rig as the definition of a "ketch" and "yawl" is not determined by any reference to the number of jibs, staysails, or the placement of the main mast relative to some station. Nope, it's a yawl if the mast hanging off the ass end of the boat is behind the rudder post and a ketch if it's in front of said rudder post.

Thus, I'm with Bob. We've got perfectly good names for rigs and we oughta use 'em.

As to the question of: Does a distributed load make it easier on the hull design in some way, the answer is probably no. Consider the loads transferred from the rig to the keel and rudder on a sloop and then take some stupid little mizzen and add it on - it's a rounding error. I'm paraphrasing Bob here, but the loads the mizzen puts on the boat are probably less than the loads that you add by towing a friend into port. Even with a pretty big mizzen, the sort you'd find on a Clutter, I'm pretty sure that the shroud loads are so small that one needn't worry about 'em much. The exception I can think of are the ketches that raced in the old Whitbread race, NZ Endeavor and Stienlager, But those had mizzens that were as big as the man and carried jib/genoa sails on their mizzens up wind. They were more like Schooners, so I guess we'd have to call 'em..... wait for it.....

Slutters

if they had an inner forestay with a staysail on it.

BV

#55 SemiSalt

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:12 PM

Britton Chance designed some ketches with very big mizzens stepped very far aft. I think Equation was one. I doubt stress on the hull was big deal (as Bob says), but keeping the mast upright with very little boat behind it much have been a challenge.

I think Chance must have the smallest photographic record of any major designer of his time. It's hard to find a picture of any of his boats.

#56 JBE

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 09:46 PM

Steinlager II is coming back here very shortly( incidentally).
Yeah I don't know , in practical terms its always easier to just drop the mizzen all together when on the wind in over say 20 knots. But I've always believed ( rightly or wrongly)that a smarter way would be to shorten all sails progressively. ie reef mizzen> reef jib> reef main> drop mizzen. ( laughs) did all of that and back up and then back down in about a hour at christmas, friggin 15 knots to 30 to 5 to 25 in 5 miles of coast. Nearly enough to bring on a big lie down.

#57 Kirwan

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:10 PM

This one got enough staysails?

Posted Image

Betcha the crew calls it a 'clutter' when they hear 'Ready about!"

#58 Timo42

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:22 AM

You mean the back fell off? Probably got hit by a wave.


Chance in a million... :P

#59 floating dutchman

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:10 AM

I dunno Beau. When I hear Slutter I think of someone adding a staysail to a sloop and trying to palm it of as a cutter.

NZ Endeavor and Stienlager were as I understand it the first generation down wind ocean racing boats. Its been knowen for a long time that multi mast boats are more efficent off the wind and reaching. The reason I belive that the VOR 70's are sloops is because some clever dick figgured out that big boat's can plane too.(just like little ones) And that changed the dynamic's of the whole rig efficenty thing.

If I'm wrong correct me, I'm always keen to learn.

Sorry about the spelling guys. My spell cheaker is on the blink. I'm loving linux at the moment but just might have to go back to windoze for the userability (and so you guys can read my posts).

#60 mikeys clone no1

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:18 AM

i always thought a slutters' inner forestay was removeable, a cutters' is fixed.

#61 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:46 PM

This one got enough staysails?

Posted Image

Betcha the crew calls it a 'clutter' when they hear 'Ready about!"


Kirwan,

I think I can get this right. That ketch has one "staysail", an "inner jib", an "outer jib", and if it's set flying the outside one is a "flying jib". It the outermost jib is set on a say, then I think it goes: "staysail", "inner jib", "jib", "outer jib".

BTW, I believe that only a sail set on a "Stay" is a "staysail" in the proper vernacular. On an old ship only the cable leading to the bow was a "Stay" as it stayed the mast. The outer cables that lead to the bowsprit were called something else because they were removable. There's a chance that the stub of the bowsprit, the base bit closest to the bow, has a "stay" on it and that would be called the "jib stay" but the outer jibs are set on the "Jib boom" which is the pole that lays atop the bowsprit and can be removed in heavy weather along with topmasts (which this ketch doesn't have).



Flying Dutchman,

I'm pretty sure that the big Whitbread ketches were entirely an artifact of the late IOR rule that gave a BIG advantage to split rigs because they measured as "slow". Most IOR folks were competing on sausages (windward leeward courses) and it hadn't occurred or mattered to the rule authors that the "penalty" of a mizzen on a beat disappeared on reach. As something like 95% of the Whitbread course was a reach/run, there was a gigantic advantage to having a bunch of sail area in the mizzen and mizzen staysail/jib/chute that wasn't rated like the sail area on the main or in a sloop. All this disappeared as soon as folks rated the sail area appropriately for the race course and properly penalized the sail area hanging off the mizzen.

The ketches were fun to watch, I was living in Auckland when they blew through.

BV

#62 JBE

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:21 PM

Also and In practical terms, a mizzen staysail pulls like a schoolboy, and they're really easy to set and get down.

#63 sam_crocker

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:40 AM

i always thought a slutters' inner forestay was removeable, a cutters' is fixed.


Cutters can have them removable too. I race on one, it's hard to gybe the pole with the inner forestay there. Come to think of it, she's work to gybe even with the inner forestay removed.

#64 Kirwan

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:59 PM


This one got enough staysails?

Posted Image

Betcha the crew calls it a 'clutter' when they hear 'Ready about!"


Kirwan,

I think I can get this right. That ketch has one "staysail", an "inner jib", an "outer jib", and if it's set flying the outside one is a "flying jib". It the outermost jib is set on a say, then I think it goes: "staysail", "inner jib", "jib", "outer jib".

BTW, I believe that only a sail set on a "Stay" is a "staysail" in the proper vernacular. On an old ship only the cable leading to the bow was a "Stay" as it stayed the mast. The outer cables that lead to the bowsprit were called something else because they were removable. There's a chance that the stub of the bowsprit, the base bit closest to the bow, has a "stay" on it and that would be called the "jib stay" but the outer jibs are set on the "Jib boom" which is the pole that lays atop the bowsprit and can be removed in heavy weather along with topmasts (which this ketch doesn't have).




I debated saying "this one have enough headsails?" - but that didn't seem right, since only one goes anywhere near the mast head. But they are all ahead of the mainmast.... then again, they aren't bent on a mast, gaff or yard...

One of the things I love about sailing is the rich history of terminology, born out of necessity for unique identifiers for everything on the boat. Then again, I hate getting too persnickety over semantics.

That's why I have difficulty with these sorts of contradictions... I've beenlooking up all this terminology, and getting different answers.

Sometimes the most forward sail is called the Yankee, sometimes it's a Jib(outer, flying, etc..). Maybe 'yankee' is only used in the case of 2 headsails,or maybe it has to do with shape (more like a blade than a genny). In fact, I've seen headsails on cutters refered to as 'yankee and staysail', (probably most correct), 'jib and staysail', but also 'Jib and Genny', or 'Jib and Yankee', including from owners of such boats. Another arrangement is to have two roller furlers up front, but only ever use one at a time (big sail / small sail).... while this sounds mighty handy for cruising, it makes the distinctions a bit blurrier. Of course the captain may exercise his perogative and proclaim whatever name he wants: "Ok, boys, it's time to hoist Ethyl!"

The first ketch I referenced (Ariel), has a 'wooden thing' at the bottom of theinner head sail (staysail?); this is relatively common, and I've only everheard it called a 'jib boom' (but it's not on a jib!). And it can't be a'boomkin', those are only ever on the stern. Per your post (and other references-not that I doubted you), I guess a jib boom can also be an extension of thebowsprit, although the martingales in my second picture would indicate thatparticular bowsprit is relatively permanent. Interestingly, they attach to thesprit right at the tacks of the three forwardmost sails, to counter the tensionin the ... um... luff lines?


Hmmm... just when I'm feeling old, something like this makes me realize I'm not old enough! A hundred years ago, all sailors knew this stuff.<br style="mso-special-character: line-break;"><br style="mso-special-character: line-break;">

#65 MoeAlfa

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:16 PM

Hiscock discusses various boats and rigs in one of his books.

My goodness. Just imagine what the rest of him can do!

Is this Perry we're talking about or someone else?

#66 Ajax

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:35 PM

All I know is, that picture is bitchin'.

#67 blackjenner

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:40 PM

[

I debated saying "this one have enough headsails?" - but that didn't seem right, since only one goes anywhere near the mast head. But they are all ahead of the mainmast.... then again, they aren't bent on a mast, gaff or yard...

One of the things I love about sailing is the rich history of terminology, born out of necessity for unique identifiers for everything on the boat. Then again, I hate getting too persnickety over semantics.

That's why I have difficulty with these sorts of contradictions... I've beenlooking up all this terminology, and getting different answers.

Sometimes the most forward sail is called the Yankee, sometimes it's a Jib(outer, flying, etc..). Maybe 'yankee' is only used in the case of 2 headsails,or maybe it has to do with shape (more like a blade than a genny). In fact, I've seen headsails on cutters refered to as 'yankee and staysail', (probably most correct),


That is what I call the outer headsail on Brigadoon, which is a cutter designed by Bob Perry. It's a Yankee. It's also what my sailmaker calls it.

This definition is from Doyle Sails:


R/F Yankee
This is a sail with a very high cut clew, usually sized at around 100% - 110% overlap.The high clew means the sail can fly away from the boat when eased sheets, so it is an excellent sail for Reaching and is therefore most commonly used as an offshore sail. Due to the height of the clew, we bring the leech line over the head of the sail and down the luff to make it adjustable at the tack.





#68 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:06 PM

Moe:
Sorry mine is not quite that talented.

#69 MoeAlfa

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:42 AM

Moe:
Sorry mine is not quite that talented.

Ooof. Another of my idols turns out to have a schwantz of clay.




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