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#1 Team WIld

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 06:35 AM

Getting slayed on another forum over my estimated market prices for sporties. I am interested to know what people think it would take to get any production sportie (from moulds) to attract enough buyers so that a class eventuates. This happens all the time in dinghy boats (laser, 420, SB3, 49Er, etchells etc) so why not SB. I know the Shaw guys will get on my case and yes the production Shaws look like they will very quickly get a class going, but what about the other sporties that come from moulds or have the ability to be moulded. The concept is OD class racing, keep it cheap as possible restrict sails, hull weights etc yet still race in mixed sport boat fleets competatively.



Slay away guys!:D

#2 Scarecrow

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 07:11 AM

It doesn't happen as often as you think in songbird and for every successful class there are litterally handreds that never get past the first couple of prototypes. From your list the only boat which is relatively New is the sb3 which is of course a sport boat. Of the dinghys the newest is the 49er and only exists because it was designed for and excepted in to the Olympics. Without that guaranteed market it probably would never have gone into production.

#3 dogwatch

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:13 AM

The classes that have got OD traction in the UK have been not a lot more than US$40K equivalent all-inclusive. Price is critical.

P.S. Etchells is a dinghy? Don't think so.

#4 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:28 AM

Ha ha ha he said a sb3 is a sport boat! What next, an i550 is as well! There is quite a few onedesigns out there, not in the numbers of the classes mentioned, and that i think is why, so many designs out there, and they all grab a few buyers each!

#5 Shaw-650

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 08:51 AM

I think the problem with one design sporties (in Aus) is exactly the reason they got started. People tinkering and modifying to make them quicker, they evolve and we end up with only a few of each as TS said. I think the most successful SB (by todays definition) in Aus would have to be the T7's (24ish boats) Magic's, or maybe some of the E boats. Class takes more than a well priced boat, it is the whole vertical marketing push, regattas, having an interested body pushing the barrow, an association, someone willing to enforce OD etc etc. The M guys do a good job and it was great to see a dozen boats at Geelong this year but they are just too expensive (new). Jury is still out as to how much traction something like the Shaw will get as it is still a mixed bunch of owners (timber v prod) but the numbers are starting to get interesting. But then the great Aussie and NZ spirit takes over and we end up with two new 6.5's in the form of Leech's.

#6 dogwatch

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:25 AM

Class takes more than a well priced boat, it is the whole vertical marketing push, regattas, having an interested body pushing the barrow, an association, someone willing to enforce OD etc etc.


Yes it takes all of those but in UK at least, price has been critical to generate OD critical mass. Then you get guys with plenty of coin buying cheap-as-chips boats because that's where they can find OD action; little sport-boats tied along-side Swan mother-ships.

#7 Scarecrow

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

It doesn't happen as often as you think in songbird and for every successful class there are litterally handreds that never get past the first couple of prototypes. From your list the only boat which is relatively New is the sb3 which is of course a sport boat. Of the dinghys the newest is the 49er and only exists because it was designed for and excepted in to the Olympics. Without that guaranteed market it probably would never have gone into production.


Boy there are some great auto-corrects in that reply.

#8 Team WIld

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:33 AM

I think the shaws will likely do well, at the end of the day I think people like knowing how good they are on similar equipment. I reckon mixed boat fleets are great and there is little doubt that the SMS rating is one of the better ones out there at the moment. I started this topic because I believe that growth of a class of boat in this instance "sports boats" could greatly benefit from some OD production boats growing in numbers. The T boats are established and have been around along time, however there is a huge difference in each build compared to a mould production boat. So I would like to spice things up a bit, are Shaws at $46,000 AUD at the right price point and represent a bang for your buck solution, will this boat at this price bring in new players? Or the Sports 8xx at say under $60K something that would see people reaching for their check books. SB3 are marketed as a sports boat (although are not by definition in Aus terms) are expensive yet seem to be growing in numbers, why is this? I understand associations and regattas need to be developed but it may be that you can have classes within ASBA sanctioned events so it may be that you have the "sports boat div 1 and 2" mixed class that everyone enters and the T7 class, Shaw 650 class, and so on all it would take is manufacturers or owners to set the standards for the class, then development boats can still race and if attractive enough could then obtain numbers and a new class is born.

So without unreasonable suggestions lets tell the manufactures what the needs of the buyers are to get the market moving again, Ill start with sports 8xx at $60 grand start up spec. Shaw seem to be well priced, SB3 (sorry TS) way to expensive should be below 40K T7 or 7.5 if moulds existed 50 ish? Stealth 8 based on performance and size same as sports 8 $60K.

I may be unrelistic in my prices however if a Shaw can be sold as indicated surely larger boats can meet these suggested prices???

#9 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 01:46 PM

I think the shaws will likely do well, at the end of the day I think people like knowing how good they are on similar equipment. I reckon mixed boat fleets are great and there is little doubt that the SMS rating is one of the better ones out there at the moment. I started this topic because I believe that growth of a class of boat in this instance "sports boats" could greatly benefit from some OD production boats growing in numbers. The T boats are established and have been around along time, however there is a huge difference in each build compared to a mould production boat. So I would like to spice things up a bit, are Shaws at $46,000 AUD at the right price point and represent a bang for your buck solution, will this boat at this price bring in new players? Or the Sports 8xx at say under $60K something that would see people reaching for their check books. SB3 are marketed as a sports boat (although are not by definition in Aus terms) are expensive yet seem to be growing in numbers, why is this? I understand associations and regattas need to be developed but it may be that you can have classes within ASBA sanctioned events so it may be that you have the "sports boat div 1 and 2" mixed class that everyone enters and the T7 class, Shaw 650 class, and so on all it would take is manufacturers or owners to set the standards for the class, then development boats can still race and if attractive enough could then obtain numbers and a new class is born.

So without unreasonable suggestions lets tell the manufactures what the needs of the buyers are to get the market moving again, Ill start with sports 8xx at $60 grand start up spec. Shaw seem to be well priced, SB3 (sorry TS) way to expensive should be below 40K T7 or 7.5 if moulds existed 50 ish? Stealth 8 based on performance and size same as sports 8 $60K.

I may be unrelistic in my prices however if a Shaw can be sold as indicated surely larger boats can meet these suggested prices???



For your info, the T7's were all out of the same mould, well except shock treatment which ended up as the deck plug and my boat which became the hull plug. Even though the T7's all rate different, they all still fit the class rules as far as we are aware, just some have smaller mains in an attempt to be competitive in all conditions under sms against the new light ballasted boats. Noy sure what the price would be now for one, but you can still get one built, but would very much doubt you would get one anywhere near 40k unless you built it yourself!

#10 lickety-split

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 09:58 PM

I built a 7.5m sports boat 10 years ago. Foam and e glass. I think there is generally 600 hrs from memory in construction time for a boat this size. Do it out of production moulds and maybe save a few hrs but still you need to build the mould.
To have a product that will sell you need a carbon rig rudder and boards and maybe even hull skins these days. All of these add up pretty quickly and for an 8m boat your materials, appendages and deck hardware alone will be up around the 40k - 50k mark. Then add a trailer, splashes, and sails.
Taking all this in to account, doing a proddy 8m at a price point of 60k and make 5k of profit for your self for 400 - 500 hrs of labour just doesn't add up as a viable business model.
The shaw 650 has a very reasonable price point, and a very attractive product, being both fast and simple with light sheet loads. Go to 8m and you are increasing volumes and areas 2 to 3 fold.

There was a thread years ago on here on a similar topic, might do a search later.

#11 Team WIld

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 11:53 PM

Thanks for the info TS. I didnt know the T7 was moulded, I remember Mustard Cutter was built by Andy Turton at Mooloolaba (And the day the mast went through the hull!!) although now thinking about it it might have been a 750? The T7 is also a great boat and if using smaller sails makes them more competative under sms in all conditions maybe that is something a class association or "committee" could consider as the class sail size? I had been following SB thread for a few years under another membership, most entertainingh :lol: and one of the things that stood out to me was the need for class racing within the SB fleet, I can see how the Thompsons, Shaw, S8 (if they all turned up!) could easily have class racing within ASBA regattas, shouldnt be that hard. The other thing that got me thinking was the F$%^ing ridiclious costs of buying a SB this alone, SB are the formula 1 of the mono world even formula 1 has taken steps to minimise costs to keep their sport going! As a boat builder (in a past life) I do have some understanding on costs, a production builder buys at about 60% -70% of a one off builder, moulded boats (once moulds are produced) take 1/2 the time to build as a male moulded boat in foam and 1/3 the time of a cold moulded boat. The only exception to buy prices are in core materials as there seems to be less mark up in these products this is why the new Bavaria is so heavy, built along sports boat lines but a solid glass boat (THIS IS NOT A SPORTS BOAT IN AUS TERMS) simply to keep costs down. I was told in that forum I was way off the mark with a S8 build price as a mast would cost $20K...Really... if this is the prices SB owners are paying I am going back into building, A 11.5 meter oval carbon mast to suit an 8 m sporties should not cost more than 8 Grand and a builder at wholesale can expect 20 - 30% discount off that!

Shaw has it right, produce at a very good price and create a OD concept so that they can make continual profits by sail sales, masts, booms, rudders, keels etc. This is the car industry model, make little from the car but heaps from parts and servicing. It is a great model and allows easy entry into the market. Imagine how much a car would be if there weer no spare parts sales. I used the 49er as an example as these boats gained huge traction (yes olympic class helps heaps) but I think there is more than olympic selection to it, you cant tell me everyone who buys a 49er thinks they are an olympian! Fast, relatively affordable, OD, easy access to well priced spare parts. Lets say a SB has a lifespan of 5 years in that time as a builder I could expect 3 sets of sails, probably a rudder and carbon mast or boom to be purchased, my profit after initial sale could easily another 4 0r 5 grand, then the original owner sells his old boat for a new light one and guess what I still get income from the old boat at a growing rate (older boats break more :D ) a new boat sale and all the spares over its lifespan and it goes on a class is formed! T boats are a great example of this and Shaw will probably be a better one. Here is the catch, SB owners need to support OD, will this ever happen at the current prices, I doubt it so I think builders need to adopt a true production methodology, low entry price and aftermarket sales.

Based on a carbon composite lay up of a 8 m sportie I have details on I think $50 - 60 grand is achievable less if you allow owners to buy their own trailers, outboards etc. Maybe I am going to have to put my money where my mouth is. That said if I can build a boat like the S8xx for somewhere in this suggested price point how many would I sell??? Advice?

#12 oregami

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:36 AM

Hey Team Wild,
Interesting topic.

I am amazed at what you can spend on small sports boats. Recently a T 750 was launched here in WA and it had all the go fasts. The rumours have it purportedly pushing up to 100K.


I have sailed on a Viper 640 for the last three seasons. We have sailed as a class and part of the SMS fleet in WA. We chose OD because as much as we enjoy sailing sportsboats, the "arms race" aspect didn't appeal. There is always going to a new, better, faster boat on the horizon . EG leech 6.5.... and in a year or two ......
The Viper has proven to be a great OD, production sportsboat. In three seasons the Vipers have dominated the SMS racing on the west coast. We have sailed against T7's and 750's Shaw 650's, M24's, Elliotts etc.

A sports boat can be put together for a reasonable price with the good gear. The Viper 640 is well built and at $37,000 has Carbon spars, Harken gear, sails, trailer and covers.
All in all, pretty cost effective sailing.

Perth, being 2500km from the next, nearest major city, has made it difficult for east coast sailors to view the Viper in action. If you're in WA get our contact details from Viper 640 Australian contact page to have a blast.

Attached File  BOW SHOT.jpg   218.03K   66 downloads Attached File  Viper 640 upwin.jpg   187.39K   61 downloads Attached File  viper dw.jpg   228.1K   39 downloads

#13 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:48 AM

Oh no! The Viper crowd are here! The sb3's of the west!

#14 Team WIld

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 08:55 AM

Hey Oregami,

Thanks for the feedback. I agree a SB at $37K is pretty well priced and the vipers look like heaps of fun. I think the drive to be the fastest is only serving to ultimatly destroy SB racing. Dont get me wrong development of SB should be encouraged, however generating a OD concept within SMS mixed fleets allows overall "fastest" boat results, OD class results and Div 1 and 2 SMS results. This will provide the best of all worlds in fleet racing. Take any ASBA sanctioned event, how much larger would the fleet be if we simply opened up the "sports boat" world to allow OD classes to race within the race? I see the allowance of I550s, yet they do not meet SB speed test, is this to increase numbers? And what will happen as we get faster boats at the sharp end leaving the older sporties behind, do we increase the min speed rating and loose the older boats? I believe that the promotion of OD class racing within the SB fleet is a good thing, there is already a T7 fleet, Probably a Shaw fleet, and elliot fleet, SB3 (Sorry TS) ect. This allows many price point entries and increases fleet size.

I believe that the production sports boat is to be encouraged. I was slayed by "Frank" from sydney telling me I didnt know what I was talking about in another thread, my point is what will it take to encourage sales of production SB.

Viper $37K Shaw is $46 K and getting sales. T7 I can not frind a price on maybe TS can help here? Sports 8xx under $60K? What do you buy?
What boat is most attractive to outsiders? How do we attract new owners and crews?

#15 dogwatch

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 06:23 PM

SB3 (sorry TS) way to expensive should be below 40K


It is, around here at least. http://www.yachtsand...com/news/155335 £24K is around US$38K or AUS$35K. Who pays list price anyway?

#16 timber

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:32 PM

Interesting discussion. I sort of like it that the i550 is not considered a Sport Boat by the ASBA. Thanks for pointing that out TS. To big and ballasted to be a dingy and too short to have the upwind speed of an 8 meter sportie. The i550 has created a niche for itself by being a great balance of cost, simpilicity, ease and speed of amateur garage build, speed on the water and tolerance of differences in deck layout, spar choice, sails and blades. It is a low tech developement platform accessible by normal people. Carbon and Aluminum spar choice-- the fastest and most successful i550, Tokyo Trash Baby, has a tin rig and Andrew the most time in the boat. Where does the carbon advantage really begin to be noticeable in this size of boat weight of mast/ballast versus bendy character of material and butts on the rail?? We don't know yet as a group. In this size boat and in its early developement no one does. Which is one of the attractive elements.
i550's have been built with a carbon spar and midrange sail technology for $12,000 USD.
An i550 Hull and Blades can be boatshop built for about $16,000. The owner needs to add a spar, deck gear, sails and strings, and a trailer or yard dolly for about $10,000 bucks.

Yeah, yeah, its 18 feet long not 21 or 23 and so on, and the ASBA says it is not (sniff sniff) a sportboat. But it is alot cheaper than the very nice mid thirty-thousand Viper, Shaws, Donovans, Biekers, Dibleys and many others I am not naming.
Fast is fun and cheaper fast fun has a lot to reccommend it in this worldwide economic climate. It can be built in the garage at home and it can live there out of the elements ready to go travelling.

An argument can be made that the home build scene is moribund, but nearly 100 are in serious build stages with 450 plan sets sold. It is a pretty strong ratio of "dreaming of boat to building of boat" by any recconning. Also figure in that we've people in more than 40 countries with those plans and desires. There is a group in Tasmania building as fast as they can and may have enough boats for their own start at the asba and trailersailer nationals at the Bellrive YC over Easter Weekend. It is an ambitious goal more power to them for doing it.

The materials are not too sexy. Plywood, some timber, glass and carbon fiber, epoxy. It is a near perfect match of strength of material, weight and cost. The shape is refined and sail area to wetted surface is high. The Gougeon Bros. liked it so much that they built one for themselves. (http://www.westsystem.com
/ss/i550-sport-boat/ for their speed build three minute video.)

Food for thought. Top Down ain't a good working model lately. Bottom Up shows a lot of promise.

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#17 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:52 PM

Hey team wild, OD boats are allready racing in the sms fleet, the T7's had 5 boats at Airlie last year and still raced in the sms fleet, geelong this year had the M24's off doing there own thing as OD boats do, in these regattas there is normally a choise if enough boats turn up to have there own div courses and startline! the E7's in brisbane at times turn up in good numbers and race in the sms div as well. And dont worry about the i500 spammers, they just feel left out, there is hardley any of the 3.5 million boats sold that are on the water here in Aus. The speed cut off they have in asba races is working so far, Airlie for eg, waiting for an sb3 to finish a normal days w/l race gives a nice lunch break for the other boats till the next race is started, and normally we dont have to wait around for them after a passage race, its finish and straight to the bar! Adding slower boats to the mix wont help as mentioned above, the gaps from the fast boats to even the T7's for eg are huge at times as well!

#18 Bill E Goat

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

The biggest one design class is the Elliott 7, about 45 boats in Australia and yes it has a Symmetric kite it still can compete against similar boats. We should have 15 again for the Nationls in Port Stephens with boats being chartered by a up and coming sailmaker and hopefully Greg Elliott himself.

As to the price an 8m carbon sport boat would be lucky to hit the water for under 100k.

We were hoping at one stage to get access to the E7 moulds with the aim to provide a hull, deck & interior (bounded) with keel and rudder as a DIY kit for around the 30k mark. But you still have 5k spars & rigging, 3k fittings, 10-12k sails and 4k trailer, so 55k on the water with 100 hours of fitout

#19 Team WIld

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:40 PM

Hi all,

Ts I agree with you regarding speed, you can not have a huge break waiting for boats to finish, that said what is a reasonable break. You also mention the T7's are sometimes left behind, the T& is a great SB and would be sad if the gap was so large that they eventually didnt meet the speed criteria like the I550 or SB3. My point is there can be levels of entry into SB, maybe we have an extra lap in W/L courses for faster boats for example Div 2 which seems to be the fastest in SB world (Still trying to work this out). Some of the best racing I have done has been in OD fleets Lasers 120 boat starts in the 90s and Etchells Nats and worlds with 60 plus boats on the start line.

Did the T7 have their own results at Airlie? Who won the T7 Title at ABRW? There will always be some dickhead like me stirring things up, but I just reckon it would be great to have classes within SB to even out the playing field where it comes to skill not budget and who is the smartest at design against a rule. I have never understood how the F$%K a 7 or 8 meter dinghy with some balast can cost inexcess of 100 grand!

I reckon with some thought a system can be worked out to allow SB3, Viper, I550 into ASBA events as surely these generate a great entry point into sports boats (although I still believe the SB3 in Australia is way too expensive, I was told they were 50 grand). From the ASBA facebook it looks like SB3 will be at the nationals! So here we have an event that is a little short in numbers so lets let them in!

There is some interesting feedback comin in regarding boat build costs, an I550 for 22 grand on the water (although I would have thought closer to early 30's) if it were an I650 would it meet the speed cut off? What would that meter cost 4 -5 grand? Mid 30's as an entry point for a NEW sports boat, what would they be secondhand? How much does it cost to build a T7 from the mould? As I have said I reckon we can build OD mould SB at $5000 -7000 a meter and less if numbers start popping up and probably $8000 - $10000 from male mould (do people share their male moulds?).

Imagine 6.5 Meter = mid 30 grand 8 meter = 56 grand within 3 or 4 years entry with secondhand boat 10 - 15 Grand!

#20 Team WIld

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:04 AM

The biggest one design class is the Elliott 7, about 45 boats in Australia and yes it has a Symmetric kite it still can compete against similar boats. We should have 15 again for the Nationls in Port Stephens with boats being chartered by a up and coming sailmaker and hopefully Greg Elliott himself.

As to the price an 8m carbon sport boat would be lucky to hit the water for under 100k.

We were hoping at one stage to get access to the E7 moulds with the aim to provide a hull, deck & interior (bounded) with keel and rudder as a DIY kit for around the 30k mark. But you still have 5k spars & rigging, 3k fittings, 10-12k sails and 4k trailer, so 55k on the water with 100 hours of fitout



here is a fair bit more material in an E7 than say a T7 and hours construction, hence my point! A builder pays much less for materials than the guy off the street, usually they mark up the materials am suggesting the car manufacture model, sell initially cheaply, then make $$$ on continuation of sales per boat through parts such as sails, masts, booms etc. Just like OD classes. I know for a fact that materials to build a carbon 8 meter hull are $103 M2 for a builder the M2 in hull/deck are approx 50 (probably less) 50 X $103 = $5150 then it depends on which resin you use vinyl Ester is all that is needed this is a great resin. So add resin cost and materials for hull deck ready to go are circa $6500.00 (thats allowing alot of resin! Sails, sail makers make great money out of sails! A mate of mine is a good sail maker and gets his designs done by one of the best lofts in the world, a kevlar/carbon cloth to suit SB is $27 M2 (at 40 Sqm material is $1080 for a jib/main), Spinnaker I dont actually know but based on spinakers I have bought recently $3,500 retail for a 100 SQm spinnaker. So lets be generous to teh sail maker Main/Jib 5 grand spinnaker 3,500 10 grand should pull up a set of sails. Mast, boom , prodder, again I have a actual price, 13,500 retail!

Ok, hull $6500, Sails, $10K, carbon rig, $13,500 then you have standing rigging, running rigging, keel, Bulb (allow $9 PKG), rudder, trailer, paint, instruments anything else? because I have only spent 30 grand surely the rest isnt 70 grand?

#21 Bill E Goat

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:55 AM

Can you build me a fixed price 8m carbon sports boat

#22 Rawhide

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:48 AM

I think the shaws will likely do well, at the end of the day I think people like knowing how good they are on similar equipment. I reckon mixed boat fleets are great and there is little doubt that the SMS rating is one of the better ones out there at the moment. I started this topic because I believe that growth of a class of boat in this instance "sports boats" could greatly benefit from some OD production boats growing in numbers. The T boats are established and have been around along time, however there is a huge difference in each build compared to a mould production boat. So I would like to spice things up a bit, are Shaws at $46,000 AUD at the right price point and represent a bang for your buck solution, will this boat at this price bring in new players? Or the Sports 8xx at say under $60K something that would see people reaching for their check books. SB3 are marketed as a sports boat (although are not by definition in Aus terms) are expensive yet seem to be growing in numbers, why is this? I understand associations and regattas need to be developed but it may be that you can have classes within ASBA sanctioned events so it may be that you have the "sports boat div 1 and 2" mixed class that everyone enters and the T7 class, Shaw 650 class, and so on all it would take is manufacturers or owners to set the standards for the class, then development boats can still race and if attractive enough could then obtain numbers and a new class is born.

So without unreasonable suggestions lets tell the manufactures what the needs of the buyers are to get the market moving again, Ill start with sports 8xx at $60 grand start up spec. Shaw seem to be well priced, SB3 (sorry TS) way to expensive should be below 40K T7 or 7.5 if moulds existed 50 ish? Stealth 8 based on performance and size same as sports 8 $60K.

I may be unrelistic in my prices however if a Shaw can be sold as indicated surely larger boats can meet these suggested prices???

From what I can see on the Shaw website the Shaw 650 is $51,600 in Aus plus trailer etc so I would imagine over$55k on the water. The SB3 is listed at $43k by the importer. Makes the Viper look great value at less than $40k in my mind this would be the most likely class to succeed if they got an agent on the East Coast

#23 ntman

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:25 AM

team wild i truly think you are seriosly underestimating the costs of an 8m sports boat.I've been pretty closely involved with the build of a few quick boats and i think you are also underestimating the amount of attention to detail required to build a boat at a competitive weight.go build your first one, get it on the water, compare its performance to current benchmarks and let us know if your current estimates are even close.

then tell us if you are willing to do all the work for a skinny profit margin

In the sportsboat market it is worth keeping in mind that if your clients are looking to buy an 8m sportie with wings then really they are looking to win line honours. if it can't do that then you won't have any buyers. the sports 8 is the classic example of this.

on another point i don't know of any current line honours contender sporties made out of vinylester.

#24 Team WIld

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:48 AM

team wild i truly think you are seriosly underestimating the costs of an 8m sports boat.I've been pretty closely involved with the build of a few quick boats and i think you are also underestimating the amount of attention to detail required to build a boat at a competitive weight.go build your first one, get it on the water, compare its performance to current benchmarks and let us know if your current estimates are even close.

then tell us if you are willing to do all the work for a skinny profit margin

In the sportsboat market it is worth keeping in mind that if your clients are looking to buy an 8m sportie with wings then really they are looking to win line honours. if it can't do that then you won't have any buyers. the sports 8 is the classic example of this.

on another point i don't know of any current line honours contender sporties made out of vinylester.



you may wish to investigate vinylester properties, it is actually a better product than epoxy for Sportsboats. In most instances it out performs epoxy unless the expoy is post cured in an oven. It also has a higher barcol hardness than epoxy. The facts are the facts as far as material costs, I am still looking for someone to correct me without blanket statements, such as I think you are seriously underestimating the costs, I know the costs of materials. You also state that anyone building an 8 meter sports boat is looking for line honours, on that basis and recent form there will never be another 8 meter sportie built as Pierre has this well and truely stitched up. I guess we should look at spending 150K on 9 meter boats then.

Explain to me how almost every production sportie can be put on the water for 50 grand yet go one meter bigger and you pay twice the amount. The fact is that most people who build "one offs" pay heaps for materials, and even 20 grand for a mast!

So from your reply I assume that if a 8 meter sportie like the sports 8 could be produced for around 60 K it would be a winner with sales?

#25 Shaw-650

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:11 AM


team wild i truly think you are seriosly underestimating the costs of an 8m sports boat.I've been pretty closely involved with the build of a few quick boats and i think you are also underestimating the amount of attention to detail required to build a boat at a competitive weight.go build your first one, get it on the water, compare its performance to current benchmarks and let us know if your current estimates are even close.

then tell us if you are willing to do all the work for a skinny profit margin

In the sportsboat market it is worth keeping in mind that if your clients are looking to buy an 8m sportie with wings then really they are looking to win line honours. if it can't do that then you won't have any buyers. the sports 8 is the classic example of this.

on another point i don't know of any current line honours contender sporties made out of vinylester.



you may wish to investigate vinylester properties, it is actually a better product than epoxy for Sportsboats. In most instances it out performs epoxy unless the expoy is post cured in an oven. It also has a higher barcol hardness than epoxy. The facts are the facts as far as material costs, I am still looking for someone to correct me without blanket statements, such as I think you are seriously underestimating the costs, I know the costs of materials. You also state that anyone building an 8 meter sports boat is looking for line honours, on that basis and recent form there will never be another 8 meter sportie built as Pierre has this well and truely stitched up. I guess we should look at spending 150K on 9 meter boats then.

Explain to me how almost every production sportie can be put on the water for 50 grand yet go one meter bigger and you pay twice the amount. The fact is that most people who build "one offs" pay heaps for materials, and even 20 grand for a mast!

So from your reply I assume that if a 8 meter sportie like the sports 8 could be produced for around 60 K it would be a winner with sales?

Mate, set of membrane sails plus 3 kites and a code zero (you want to be up the front of the fleet dont you?) for an 8m boat is close to a third of your 60k. I like your attempt to ignite some discussion but best you sniff a big bit of reality. Ask the blokes that bought the prod sports 8's how competitive they were. About 350kg's over P's boat. There are plenty of blokes here that have built v quick 8m boats and they are telling you the cost (including their own hours) will blow through your mark pretty quickly. Now if you are just talking OD without worrying about mixed fleet then that is a different story. Lay them up with a chopper gun, throw a tin rin and a set of Dacron sails on and bingo, you have an 8m boat that the serious SB racer would be all over so they could race shitters against each other..... I tell you what, the sports 8 moulds are for sale. Go grab them, start flopping out some 550kg boats with carbon rigs and a full set of quality sails, fittings, outboard trailer resgistered, get all your marketing material together, tell me how many boats you reckon you will have on the water, the regatta plans and wack a 60k price sticker on it and I will happily entertain being at the fron of the queue....

#26 Team WIld

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:19 AM



team wild i truly think you are seriosly underestimating the costs of an 8m sports boat.I've been pretty closely involved with the build of a few quick boats and i think you are also underestimating the amount of attention to detail required to build a boat at a competitive weight.go build your first one, get it on the water, compare its performance to current benchmarks and let us know if your current estimates are even close.

then tell us if you are willing to do all the work for a skinny profit margin

In the sportsboat market it is worth keeping in mind that if your clients are looking to buy an 8m sportie with wings then really they are looking to win line honours. if it can't do that then you won't have any buyers. the sports 8 is the classic example of this.

on another point i don't know of any current line honours contender sporties made out of vinylester.



you may wish to investigate vinylester properties, it is actually a better product than epoxy for Sportsboats. In most instances it out performs epoxy unless the expoy is post cured in an oven. It also has a higher barcol hardness than epoxy. The facts are the facts as far as material costs, I am still looking for someone to correct me without blanket statements, such as I think you are seriously underestimating the costs, I know the costs of materials. You also state that anyone building an 8 meter sports boat is looking for line honours, on that basis and recent form there will never be another 8 meter sportie built as Pierre has this well and truely stitched up. I guess we should look at spending 150K on 9 meter boats then.

Explain to me how almost every production sportie can be put on the water for 50 grand yet go one meter bigger and you pay twice the amount. The fact is that most people who build "one offs" pay heaps for materials, and even 20 grand for a mast!

So from your reply I assume that if a 8 meter sportie like the sports 8 could be produced for around 60 K it would be a winner with sales?

Mate, set of membrane sails plus 3 kites and a code zero (you want to be up the front of the fleet dont you?) for an 8m boat is close to a third of your 60k. I like your attempt to ignite some discussion but best you sniff a big bit of reality. Ask the blokes that bought the prod sports 8's how competitive they were. About 350kg's over P's boat. There are plenty of blokes here that have built v quick 8m boats and they are telling you the cost (including their own hours) will blow through your mark pretty quickly. Now if you are just talking OD without worrying about mixed fleet then that is a different story. Lay them up with a chopper gun, throw a tin rin and a set of Dacron sails on and bingo, you have an 8m boat that the serious SB racer would be all over so they could race shitters against each other..... I tell you what, the sports 8 moulds are for sale. Go grab them, start flopping out some 550kg boats with carbon rigs and a full set of quality sails, fittings, outboard trailer resgistered, get all your marketing material together, tell me how many boats you reckon you will have on the water, the regatta plans and wack a 60k price sticker on it and I will happily entertain being at the fron of the queue....



Now we are talking! However I have always said sails are basic ie Main, jib and spinnaker. Weight in a boat equals money especially when you make them from a mould. I used to build full carbon ski race boats so I do know a little about pulling a boat out of a mould. The point of this thread is to establish where the market is at....maybe I already have bought the sport 8 moulds!!!

#27 ntman

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:23 AM

if it can be competitive for line honours then yes. If you can't get to the same weights as kiss then i think you may have problems selling them. the first production sports 8 is the classic example.

a few years back some people i know investigated doing a fast production 8 metre in asia.with a good builder able to get to the required weights and building female tooling they couldn't get to the prices you are talking about even with a pretty skinny margin

a shaw 650 is a very small boat compared to a sports 8 or stealth or similar so you can't just say its just a metre longer.

#28 Team WIld

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:30 AM

if it can be competitive for line honours then yes. If you can't get to the same weights as kiss then i think you may have problems selling them. the first production sports 8 is the classic example.

a few years back some people i know investigated doing a fast production 8 metre in asia.with a good builder able to get to the required weights and building female tooling they couldn't get to the prices you are talking about even with a pretty skinny margin

a shaw 650 is a very small boat compared to a sports 8 or stealth or similar so you can't just say its just a metre longer.



Thats a fair call regarding comparisons. I started this post to see wheer markets are, clearly noone believes an 8 meter SB can be built for the price I suggested, and everyone seems happy to pay 100K! Thats why there are new entrants into the SB market everyday! So if 60 is too low and 100 too high what is the price people will pay for an 8 meter sportie and sell a number of boats to allow some class racing. SMS is a good rating system so it shouldnt matter what the boat weight is as sms should sort it out and you can win on rating. Achieving 550 Kgs shouldnt be a problem, however a light boat will not last anywhere aslong as a slightly heavier 600 kg boat so this is another consideration. I must say I am finally glad to get some real feedback and who knows what will eventuate from it ;)

#29 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:04 AM

So how much will you charge me for a sports 8 hull and deck?

#30 Shaw-650

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:15 AM




team wild i truly think you are seriosly underestimating the costs of an 8m sports boat.I've been pretty closely involved with the build of a few quick boats and i think you are also underestimating the amount of attention to detail required to build a boat at a competitive weight.go build your first one, get it on the water, compare its performance to current benchmarks and let us know if your current estimates are even close.

then tell us if you are willing to do all the work for a skinny profit margin

In the sportsboat market it is worth keeping in mind that if your clients are looking to buy an 8m sportie with wings then really they are looking to win line honours. if it can't do that then you won't have any buyers. the sports 8 is the classic example of this.

on another point i don't know of any current line honours contender sporties made out of vinylester.



you may wish to investigate vinylester properties, it is actually a better product than epoxy for Sportsboats. In most instances it out performs epoxy unless the expoy is post cured in an oven. It also has a higher barcol hardness than epoxy. The facts are the facts as far as material costs, I am still looking for someone to correct me without blanket statements, such as I think you are seriously underestimating the costs, I know the costs of materials. You also state that anyone building an 8 meter sports boat is looking for line honours, on that basis and recent form there will never be another 8 meter sportie built as Pierre has this well and truely stitched up. I guess we should look at spending 150K on 9 meter boats then.

Explain to me how almost every production sportie can be put on the water for 50 grand yet go one meter bigger and you pay twice the amount. The fact is that most people who build "one offs" pay heaps for materials, and even 20 grand for a mast!

So from your reply I assume that if a 8 meter sportie like the sports 8 could be produced for around 60 K it would be a winner with sales?

Mate, set of membrane sails plus 3 kites and a code zero (you want to be up the front of the fleet dont you?) for an 8m boat is close to a third of your 60k. I like your attempt to ignite some discussion but best you sniff a big bit of reality. Ask the blokes that bought the prod sports 8's how competitive they were. About 350kg's over P's boat. There are plenty of blokes here that have built v quick 8m boats and they are telling you the cost (including their own hours) will blow through your mark pretty quickly. Now if you are just talking OD without worrying about mixed fleet then that is a different story. Lay them up with a chopper gun, throw a tin rin and a set of Dacron sails on and bingo, you have an 8m boat that the serious SB racer would be all over so they could race shitters against each other..... I tell you what, the sports 8 moulds are for sale. Go grab them, start flopping out some 550kg boats with carbon rigs and a full set of quality sails, fittings, outboard trailer resgistered, get all your marketing material together, tell me how many boats you reckon you will have on the water, the regatta plans and wack a 60k price sticker on it and I will happily entertain being at the fron of the queue....



Now we are talking! However I have always said sails are basic ie Main, jib and spinnaker. Weight in a boat equals money especially when you make them from a mould. I used to build full carbon ski race boats so I do know a little about pulling a boat out of a mould. The point of this thread is to establish where the market is at....maybe I already have bought the sport 8 moulds!!!

Good luck with the moulds. Let's hope you are more successful than the last proddy run. Look forward to seeing Kiss back on the water at an asba regatta in the near future.

#31 lickety-split

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:31 AM

I hope you pop 10+ out and have a great product, more sports boats the better.

#32 Team WIld

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:38 AM

Dunno about kiss at any asba regattas anytime soon! fastest boat slowest crew:D . I guess you all are seeing the hidden agenda behind my thread now! I have priced all materials and will build asap. Then I can let everyone know exactly a price. To be quite honost I am thinking a slightly heavier layup than kiss to the boats last a bit longer, probably just under 600 kgs. We are also negotiating some funding to produce a couple of club boats. What I would like to see is a pricing point that gets a market happening for the sports 8. So as it looks as though someone has done some research now, talk to me, what price gets these things sold in numbers as a OD sportie?

#33 Team WIld

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:41 AM

I hope you pop 10+ out and have a great product, more sports boats the better.



we are infusing them in temp controlled room, not sure with which resin yet, if the market insists on epoxy it will be epoxy, however I would build mine from vinyl ester! We may have funding to produce two or three as club boats in Cairns.

#34 Rawhide

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:19 PM




team wild i truly think you are seriosly underestimating the costs of an 8m sports boat.I've been pretty closely involved with the build of a few quick boats and i think you are also underestimating the amount of attention to detail required to build a boat at a competitive weight.go build your first one, get it on the water, compare its performance to current benchmarks and let us know if your current estimates are even close.

then tell us if you are willing to do all the work for a skinny profit margin

In the sportsboat market it is worth keeping in mind that if your clients are looking to buy an 8m sportie with wings then really they are looking to win line honours. if it can't do that then you won't have any buyers. the sports 8 is the classic example of this.

on another point i don't know of any current line honours contender sporties made out of vinylester.



you may wish to investigate vinylester properties, it is actually a better product than epoxy for Sportsboats. In most instances it out performs epoxy unless the expoy is post cured in an oven. It also has a higher barcol hardness than epoxy. The facts are the facts as far as material costs, I am still looking for someone to correct me without blanket statements, such as I think you are seriously underestimating the costs, I know the costs of materials. You also state that anyone building an 8 meter sports boat is looking for line honours, on that basis and recent form there will never be another 8 meter sportie built as Pierre has this well and truely stitched up. I guess we should look at spending 150K on 9 meter boats then.

Explain to me how almost every production sportie can be put on the water for 50 grand yet go one meter bigger and you pay twice the amount. The fact is that most people who build "one offs" pay heaps for materials, and even 20 grand for a mast!

So from your reply I assume that if a 8 meter sportie like the sports 8 could be produced for around 60 K it would be a winner with sales?

Mate, set of membrane sails plus 3 kites and a code zero (you want to be up the front of the fleet dont you?) for an 8m boat is close to a third of your 60k. I like your attempt to ignite some discussion but best you sniff a big bit of reality. Ask the blokes that bought the prod sports 8's how competitive they were. About 350kg's over P's boat. There are plenty of blokes here that have built v quick 8m boats and they are telling you the cost (including their own hours) will blow through your mark pretty quickly. Now if you are just talking OD without worrying about mixed fleet then that is a different story. Lay them up with a chopper gun, throw a tin rin and a set of Dacron sails on and bingo, you have an 8m boat that the serious SB racer would be all over so they could race shitters against each other..... I tell you what, the sports 8 moulds are for sale. Go grab them, start flopping out some 550kg boats with carbon rigs and a full set of quality sails, fittings, outboard trailer resgistered, get all your marketing material together, tell me how many boats you reckon you will have on the water, the regatta plans and wack a 60k price sticker on it and I will happily entertain being at the fron of the queue....



Now we are talking! However I have always said sails are basic ie Main, jib and spinnaker. Weight in a boat equals money especially when you make them from a mould. I used to build full carbon ski race boats so I do know a little about pulling a boat out of a mould. The point of this thread is to establish where the market is at....maybe I already have bought the sport 8 moulds!!!

Mate why the subterfuge? why not come straight out and say "hey I just bought the Sports 8 moulds, what do I have to sell at to get numbers happening for an OD fleet". Not a good start in the trust department.

#35 Team WIld

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:42 PM

Oh dear I have betrayed your trust... Are you for real??? Ever stopped to think that until the deal is finalised I may have wished to keep my cards close to my chest? In any event I am interested in OD promotion. I am genuinely interested in seeing Shaws, Vipers, T7 (and any others and any other SB grab a huge part of the mmarket so that we donr end up like the Dinghy market with 10,000 different boats spreading the small market thin. ANyway I am so deeply sorry that I have somehow offended you.

#36 Rawhide

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 12:38 AM

Oh dear I have betrayed your trust... Are you for real??? Ever stopped to think that until the deal is finalised I may have wished to keep my cards close to my chest? In any event I am interested in OD promotion. I am genuinely interested in seeing Shaws, Vipers, T7 (and any others and any other SB grab a huge part of the mmarket so that we donr end up like the Dinghy market with 10,000 different boats spreading the small market thin. ANyway I am so deeply sorry that I have somehow offended you.

No not offended, I'm in the market for an OD sports boat, but not one that requires 6 crew, so of no consequence to me, just find your approach hard to follow, I would have thought you would have had all this sorted prior to buying the moulds, if that is what you have done. You say you want to keep your purchase quiet then tell everyone this is what you have done or are doing? Anyway good luck with your venture, I hope you got the moulds at a good price, as I suspect that the market for a OD 8m sport boat is not that great and the cost to build will be more than you seem to be thinking.

#37 Team WIld

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:39 AM


Oh dear I have betrayed your trust... Are you for real??? Ever stopped to think that until the deal is finalised I may have wished to keep my cards close to my chest? In any event I am interested in OD promotion. I am genuinely interested in seeing Shaws, Vipers, T7 (and any others and any other SB grab a huge part of the mmarket so that we donr end up like the Dinghy market with 10,000 different boats spreading the small market thin. ANyway I am so deeply sorry that I have somehow offended you.

No not offended, I'm in the market for an OD sports boat, but not one that requires 6 crew, so of no consequence to me, just find your approach hard to follow, I would have thought you would have had all this sorted prior to buying the moulds, if that is what you have done. You say you want to keep your purchase quiet then tell everyone this is what you have done or are doing? Anyway good luck with your venture, I hope you got the moulds at a good price, as I suspect that the market for a OD 8m sport boat is not that great and the cost to build will be more than you seem to be thinking.



$100 grand is a good price isnt it??:unsure: ! Mate it came out when nearly shaw 650 contacted Pip to see what was going on. Not too worried about it and as time goes by you will no doubt see what we are about! Cheers.

#38 lickety-split

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:09 AM



Oh dear I have betrayed your trust... Are you for real??? Ever stopped to think that until the deal is finalised I may have wished to keep my cards close to my chest? In any event I am interested in OD promotion. I am genuinely interested in seeing Shaws, Vipers, T7 (and any others and any other SB grab a huge part of the mmarket so that we donr end up like the Dinghy market with 10,000 different boats spreading the small market thin. ANyway I am so deeply sorry that I have somehow offended you.

No not offended, I'm in the market for an OD sports boat, but not one that requires 6 crew, so of no consequence to me, just find your approach hard to follow, I would have thought you would have had all this sorted prior to buying the moulds, if that is what you have done. You say you want to keep your purchase quiet then tell everyone this is what you have done or are doing? Anyway good luck with your venture, I hope you got the moulds at a good price, as I suspect that the market for a OD 8m sport boat is not that great and the cost to build will be more than you seem to be thinking.



$100 grand is a good price isnt it??:unsure: ! Mate it came out when nearly shaw 650 contacted Pip to see what was going on. Not too worried about it and as time goes by you will no doubt see what we are about! Cheers.

wasnt me dude. your wires are crossed.

#39 Team WIld

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:33 AM




Oh dear I have betrayed your trust... Are you for real??? Ever stopped to think that until the deal is finalised I may have wished to keep my cards close to my chest? In any event I am interested in OD promotion. I am genuinely interested in seeing Shaws, Vipers, T7 (and any others and any other SB grab a huge part of the mmarket so that we donr end up like the Dinghy market with 10,000 different boats spreading the small market thin. ANyway I am so deeply sorry that I have somehow offended you.

No not offended, I'm in the market for an OD sports boat, but not one that requires 6 crew, so of no consequence to me, just find your approach hard to follow, I would have thought you would have had all this sorted prior to buying the moulds, if that is what you have done. You say you want to keep your purchase quiet then tell everyone this is what you have done or are doing? Anyway good luck with your venture, I hope you got the moulds at a good price, as I suspect that the market for a OD 8m sport boat is not that great and the cost to build will be more than you seem to be thinking.



$100 grand is a good price isnt it??:unsure: ! Mate it came out when nearly shaw 650 contacted Pip to see what was going on. Not too worried about it and as time goes by you will no doubt see what we are about! Cheers.

wasnt me dude. your wires are crossed.


My mistake, i am sorry I think it was Shaw 650! Anyway cat out f the bag!

#40 furcoat

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:20 PM

p
Dunno about kiss at any asba regattas anytime soon! fastest boat slowest crew:D . I guess you all
are seeing the hidden agenda behind my thread now!


Is the hidden agenda to take the benchmark boat out of the fleet to build interest in slower replicas? Are you sitting on the old Raptor as well :blink: ?


p
To be quite honost I am thinking a slightly heavier layup than kiss to the boats last a bit longer, probably just under 600 kgs. We are also negotiating some funding to produce a couple of club boats.


Just what we need, big boats with bigger crews, bigger gear, bigger tow vehicle, but no hope of line honours? Maybe I'm missing something.

But it's good to see someone putting their money where their mouth is so good luck to you.

#41 lickety-split

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:41 PM





Oh dear I have betrayed your trust... Are you for real??? Ever stopped to think that until the deal is finalised I may have wished to keep my cards close to my chest? In any event I am interested in OD promotion. I am genuinely interested in seeing Shaws, Vipers, T7 (and any others and any other SB grab a huge part of the mmarket so that we donr end up like the Dinghy market with 10,000 different boats spreading the small market thin. ANyway I am so deeply sorry that I have somehow offended you.

No not offended, I'm in the market for an OD sports boat, but not one that requires 6 crew, so of no consequence to me, just find your approach hard to follow, I would have thought you would have had all this sorted prior to buying the moulds, if that is what you have done. You say you want to keep your purchase quiet then tell everyone this is what you have done or are doing? Anyway good luck with your venture, I hope you got the moulds at a good price, as I suspect that the market for a OD 8m sport boat is not that great and the cost to build will be more than you seem to be thinking.



$100 grand is a good price isnt it??:unsure: ! Mate it came out when nearly shaw 650 contacted Pip to see what was going on. Not too worried about it and as time goes by you will no doubt see what we are about! Cheers.

wasnt me dude. your wires are crossed.


My mistake, i am sorry I think it was Shaw 650! Anyway cat out f the bag!

no probs,
just build the things, there are a whole lot worse boats about!

#42 Team WIld

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:08 AM

As soon as the moulds arrive we will keep everyone posted :D

#43 Shaw-650

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:23 AM





Oh dear I have betrayed your trust... Are you for real??? Ever stopped to think that until the deal is finalised I may have wished to keep my cards close to my chest? In any event I am interested in OD promotion. I am genuinely interested in seeing Shaws, Vipers, T7 (and any others and any other SB grab a huge part of the mmarket so that we donr end up like the Dinghy market with 10,000 different boats spreading the small market thin. ANyway I am so deeply sorry that I have somehow offended you.

No not offended, I'm in the market for an OD sports boat, but not one that requires 6 crew, so of no consequence to me, just find your approach hard to follow, I would have thought you would have had all this sorted prior to buying the moulds, if that is what you have done. You say you want to keep your purchase quiet then tell everyone this is what you have done or are doing? Anyway good luck with your venture, I hope you got the moulds at a good price, as I suspect that the market for a OD 8m sport boat is not that great and the cost to build will be more than you seem to be thinking.



$100 grand is a good price isnt it??:unsure: ! Mate it came out when nearly shaw 650 contacted Pip to see what was going on. Not too worried about it and as time goes by you will no doubt see what we are about! Cheers.

wasnt me dude. your wires are crossed.


My mistake, i am sorry I think it was Shaw 650! Anyway cat out f the bag!

No one called anyone mate. 2+2..... Bored now with your game of charades... see you on the other side with a bunch of 60k full carbon boats decked out ready to win races. Cant wait to see them as you now have the benefit of all the development work P has done to get these things both quick and competitive. It should be a snap! The more boats the better.

#44 Team WIld

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:14 AM

No one called anyone mate. 2+2..... Bored now with your game of charades... see you on the other side with a bunch of 60k full carbon boats decked out ready to win races. Cant wait to see them as you now have the benefit of all the development work P has done to get these things both quick and competitive. It should be a snap! The more boats the better.
[/quote]

No Charades mate. you mentioned KISS in your post not sure how you would have known that I have KISS on its way so I assumed I appologise???? Anyway it doesnt really matter. Yup pretty lucky that P has done all the development work and built moulds as this saves many many thousands of dollars :D . As stated will keep everyone informed and we will see what the eventual cost is, but I do have all quantities and material prices so unless there is some very technical and time consuming production, it may be that I can suprise everyone, or maybe as you all suggest it will be me with the suprise!!! Inany event if I can achieve anywhere near what I think I can they should sell well, right??? I assume you are still on the ASBA committee??? Maybe you guys can help me get more boats out there? Here is a bit more info. Team WIld is a Charity, we deliver youth programs for disengaged youth, the original thought behind the moulds was to build a few club boats for our region, kids work with builder, then sail their product. Maybe mistakenly I thought the sports boat fraternity would appreciate a well priced OD version of KISS. Long term Team Wild may not continue to be funded and we will have to work in out overheads etc into production costs, HOWEVER in the interim people who would like a sports 8 may be able to purchase at a very good rate. If members of ASBA committee and SB fleet think we are FOS and playing charades thats fine we can go back to our original plan, that said I think it would be a bit of a shame. Nonetheless assuming that I may have an idea on my costs and that I may have a chance to produce a full carbon boat start up package (basic laminate sail package as always stated) would my price point be a negative thing to the SB fleet, would this hurt development or construction of other designs? This is not my desire, I only thought it would be great to have a OD sports 8, slightly heavier than KISS for a bit more longevity but no where near as heavy as the old canter version priced to attract people to the class. I never attempted to offend, play charades, or speak any BS just insight a vigourous conversation so that I can get a grasp on the SB fleet, visions of the SB fleet members and so on. At the end of the day if there is an interest in developing a Sports 8 class or buying from our charity then I am all ears, if not no biggie as we will simply use as originally intended. I am sorry I bored you:(

#45 facthunt

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:30 AM

sport boats are on a development curve ,arms race, you bought someones old junk, you are dreaming if you think you can infuse a vinyl boat that will be competetive into the future.
i had a t8 mould haning in the roof eventually cut it up and threw in the skip.
my prediction and im just sayin, others may differ,the next generation boats will be 6.5-7m 250-300kg and quicker than the status quo.
sport boats dont have to cost an arm and a leg, they will and are refining to the less is more prospect and moderating cost.

#46 (p)Irate

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:48 AM

Just build it Team Wild. And get Kiss back on the water. This place is too anarchic to get some serious answers.

#47 Team WIld

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:52 AM

Just build it Team Wild. And get Kiss back on the water. This place is too anarchic to get some serious answers.



Yeah but is a bit of gut wrenching fun :D ! We are looking forward to building them! Can wait for Kiss and moulds to arrive. Where are you from?

#48 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:03 AM

Is my hull finished yet?

#49 Team WIld

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:11 AM

p
Dunno about kiss at any asba regattas anytime soon! fastest boat slowest crew:D . I guess you all
are seeing the hidden agenda behind my thread now!


Is the hidden agenda to take the benchmark boat out of the fleet to build interest in slower replicas? Are you sitting on the old Raptor as well :blink: ?

Well from what I see taking Kiss out of the flett will allow someone else to have a win, so this should be a good thing! I also think you should give P and his crew some credit for ability, sure a very well sorted and fast boat but I can assure you with myself and my crew Kiss will no longer be the benchmark boat sorry, just a lack of ability, but we do make up for this with enthusiasm and enjoyment:D

p
To be quite honost I am thinking a slightly heavier layup than kiss to the boats last a bit longer, probably just under 600 kgs. We are also negotiating some funding to produce a couple of club boats.


Just what we need, big boats with bigger crews, bigger gear, bigger tow vehicle, but no hope of line honours? Maybe I'm missing something.

But it's good to see someone putting their money where their mouth is so good luck to you.


Yup you are missing something, layup and keel mod maybe 40 - 50 kgs heavier and will do the boat heaps of good in the longevity stakes and from my discussions with Pip the keel mods were recommeded by him. This would make the boat 575 kgs on the outside, possibly liter as we are resin infusing which as you know provides the best glass:resin ratio, therefore strength and will actually save some weight! I am however open to suggestions can build a 1 regatta version pretty lightB) . And maybe I am missing the point of SMS, isnt it to ultimatly win on handicap, sure line honors/handicap is the ultimate glory, but line honors simply means longer waterline, never been past to windward by a sportie in a 50 footer:lol:

#50 Team WIld

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:18 AM

Is my hull finished yet?



I tell you what TS, happy to build for you at material cost on the condition you openly and honestly want one, come to our shed and view our product and provide a very honest critque of the build quality. I can also supply you an oval carbon mast, boom, prodder to suit for under 10K, you will need to run your own halyards and stays but has all mast, boom fittings. Are you up for it??? Iam, money where mouth is. Oh you will need to sign a non disclosure agreement on price.

#51 jim lee

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:55 PM

"Oh you will need to sign a non disclosure agreement on price."

Now why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes:

-jim lee

#52 Steam Flyer

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:16 PM

"Oh you will need to sign a non disclosure agreement on price."

Now why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes:

-jim lee


Trying to follow this, sounds like something isn't quite right -but- it may all be on the up & up.

Economics: step pricing, means that you sell at a high price to those willing to pay and at a lower price to those who will pay but not that much... means you soak the market for all it's worth. Gross= area under the curve so you maximizing area & therefor income, prseumably by maxing out production you are pushing per-unit cost as low as possible.
This is how airlines price their tickets... however, please notice that theory does not work out so well, the airlines are all going broke...

:(

Personally I think this world needs a lot less lawyers and a lot less MBAs.

FB- Doug

#53 Team WIld

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:00 PM

"Oh you will need to sign a non disclosure agreement on price."

Now why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes:

-jim lee



Saw your auction Jim, well done it was very insightful. I was quite fearful for you :D . My point on this is TS was remotely serious I would sell to him at COST, which as you know you generally dont want as public information!!! Although I have learned in this forum that is a betrayal of trust :P if I can get 5 - 10 out there pretty quickly at a great price (not all at cost :blink: ) hopefully they will gain some momentum. From this forum it sounds like 8m boats are dead and buried, 6.5- 7 m boats are going to weight 250 - 300 kgs and go faster (which in my world is unlikely as theer are some pretty solid physics that debate that!!, we want crew of 1 and at a pinch 2 :o and be able to tow it behind a push bike because a 600 Kg boat can not be towed behind a car, they are too heavy!

It would be great to see TS in a winged shitter!

#54 hotair

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:02 PM

fewer, not less



#55 narecet

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:26 PM

Always a good question when having a great-seeming business plan: What am I bringing to the equation that will probably make my effort successful while others have not done well doing similarly, or have failed?

Here, at least one thing is not there: not a brand-new hull that people can be sold into believing is the next great thing. Good yes but not possibly the next great thing.

What is it that is in your plan that others couldn't do, didn't do, or chose not to try?

(There's no need to answer: it's offered only as food for thought, or not.)

#56 Team WIld

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:48 PM

Always a good question when having a great-seeming business plan: What am I bringing to the equation that will probably make my effort successful while others have not done well doing similarly, or have failed?

Here, at least one thing is not there: not a brand-new hull that people can be sold into believing is the next great thing. Good yes but not possibly the next great thing.

What is it that is in your plan that others couldn't do, didn't do, or chose not to try?

(There's no need to answer: it's offered only as food for thought, or not.)



Mate the Sports 8xx has been the benchmark boat for the past 10 years (or there abouts) it is as close to perfection with current design principles as you can get, P has done an awesome job developing this boat and at the recent Geelong race week won all races over the line and on handicap as i understand it there was over a min on adjusted time. You are correct in your statement "the next best thing" and I do not believe for one minute that we have any better plan than anyone else, what we do have however is other sources of income! Team WIld is a charity and we earn our money elsewhere, building the Sports 8XX for us is an opportunity to show our youth program participants some processes, and skills they would otherwise not obtain. As a charity we are always looking for ways to generate some income from outside traditional funding sources and we do this very successfully. Our interest is to create a OD sports boat that is fast, fun, light weight yet durable. I think we have this with the Sports 8. In the past the production ones had canting keel and were 350kgs heavier than the race version, simply they were too heavy and I believe pretty expensive. It is a common thread that an establishment business does it tough in any industry and you will never get rich building boats :o ! It costs hundreds of thousands to develop and produce boats which has to be recouped by the developer, for example in an earlier thread someone mentioned about an asian attempt that couldnt get to near my estimate, no doubt very true, when you consider 200K to produce moulds (this is what I have been told for an 8 meter boat), you need to recoup this over the estimated market, I think 100 boats is ambitious so you would need to add $2k before you even think about even waxing up themould. Then there is the other end of the spectrum that you need to consider WORST CASE SCENARIO, say 10 boats better make that $20K per boat before laying wax :D . Team WIld doesnt have this issue, infact we have placed a zero cost on the mould as it is written off through other programs. We also have all our overheads covered, so its only labour and materials for us. We are also fortunate to have awesome buying prices as a professional boat builder would have!


So nothing special, not trying to make millions, just like to see a OD Sports 8 fleet :) then it doesnt matter when the next best thing come out because it will be OD vs OD, crew V crew and SMS balance (unless someone finds a new design concept that the measurement system doesnt account for).



This is all great feedback guys keep it coming.

#57 narecet

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:01 PM

Okay, that sounds like a rational reason. :)

I absolutely wish you complete success!

#58 facthunt

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:58 AM

Is my hull finished yet?



take your sleeping bag theres gona be a long que at the factory,take your jousting sticks too.

#59 Feral

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 03:04 AM

Are these light, cheap, zero profit margin, 2 man 8 metre sportsboats going to be built in Cairns?

#60 Team WIld

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:53 AM

Are these light, cheap, zero profit margin, 2 man 8 metre sportsboats going to be built in Cairns?



Light, not as light as kiss but under 600 Kgs, at cost is for TS only just to see him converted to winged shitters :D , 2 man, god luck????? 8 meter sports boats will be built in cairns

#61 Feral

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:05 AM

Is Wild still at Nelly Bay or has the rudder been fixed?

#62 Team WIld

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:11 AM

Is Wild still at Nelly Bay or has the rudder been fixed?


Still at Nelly, new rudder should arrive next week.

#63 facthunt

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 08:43 AM


"Oh you will need to sign a non disclosure agreement on price."

Now why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes:

-jim lee



Saw your auction Jim, well done it was very insightful. I was quite fearful for you :D . My point on this is TS was remotely serious I would sell to him at COST, which as you know you generally dont want as public information!!! Although I have learned in this forum that is a betrayal of trust :P if I can get 5 - 10 out there pretty quickly at a great price (not all at cost :blink: ) hopefully they will gain some momentum. From this forum it sounds like 8m boats are dead and buried, 6.5- 7 m boats are going to weight 250 - 300 kgs and go faster (which in my world is unlikely as theer are some pretty solid physics that debate that!!, we want crew of 1 and at a pinch 2 :o and be able to tow it behind a push bike because a 600 Kg boat can not be towed behind a car, they are too heavy!

It would be great to see TS in a winged shitter!






i dont know about the 600kg being an issue to tow, but 3.5m width will create some interest.

the police have bashed people to death for not much in that part of the world.

#64 Feral

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:29 AM


Is Wild still at Nelly Bay or has the rudder been fixed?


Still at Nelly, new rudder should arrive next week.

So you plan to change the face of sports boat racing in this country by cherning out a shit load of boats you decided is the way foward because you bought the moulds but you can't build a rudder for you own boat in 6 months. If you are what you say you are I take my hat off to you. Anyone who helps kids make a better life for themselves is a legend in my book. Even better if it involves boats or sailing. I would be very interested to know why someone from Cairns is now a sportsboat expert when the only sportsboat in Cairns doesn't sail. I'll be at Tinaroo in May and would love to have a chat in person if the concept is real.

#65 Team WIld

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:46 AM



Is Wild still at Nelly Bay or has the rudder been fixed?


Still at Nelly, new rudder should arrive next week.

So you plan to change the face of sports boat racing in this country by cherning out a shit load of boats you decided is the way foward because you bought the moulds but you can't build a rudder for you own boat in 6 months. If you are what you say you are I take my hat off to you. Anyone who helps kids make a better life for themselves is a legend in my book. Even better if it involves boats or sailing. I would be very interested to know why someone from Cairns is now a sportsboat expert when the only sportsboat in Cairns doesn't sail. I'll be at Tinaroo in May and would love to have a chat in person if the concept is real.

So does that make be an even better ledgend!!!:lol: Thanks!
Insurance mate! New rudder designed so it wont break again! Would love to build my own insurance claims! You are welcome to check out our webpage for our youth programs! Would love to meet up with you. Bit of a shame Out of the Blue isnt sailing at the moment, however i have it on good authority that Frank and wendy are completing some upgrades and hopefully we will see her hack on the water. Dont think I have ever suggested that I am a sports boat expert, all I have ever suggested is that I know my costs of building the Sports8, which by the way I have confirmed with Pierre as accurate! It has been rather amusing the varied attacks on me! At the end of the day the proof will be in the pudding! Assuming I am even remotely close to my estimated Sports8 price surely this would be good for the sport boat division? As stated I can just as easily build a few club boats for Cairns eitherway I will be happy:D

#66 Team WIld

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 09:49 AM



"Oh you will need to sign a non disclosure agreement on price."

Now why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes:

-jim lee



Saw your auction Jim, well done it was very insightful. I was quite fearful for you :D . My point on this is TS was remotely serious I would sell to him at COST, which as you know you generally dont want as public information!!! Although I have learned in this forum that is a betrayal of trust :P if I can get 5 - 10 out there pretty quickly at a great price (not all at cost :blink: ) hopefully they will gain some momentum. From this forum it sounds like 8m boats are dead and buried, 6.5- 7 m boats are going to weight 250 - 300 kgs and go faster (which in my world is unlikely as theer are some pretty solid physics that debate that!!, we want crew of 1 and at a pinch 2 :o and be able to tow it behind a push bike because a 600 Kg boat can not be towed behind a car, they are too heavy!

It would be great to see TS in a winged shitter!






i dont know about the 600kg being an issue to tow, but 3.5m width will create some interest.

the police have bashed people to death for not much in that part of the world.


It has fold out wings mate, trailer width is 2.4 M

#67 Joshua

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:47 AM

As long a line honors are important, it's going to be a $ race. PERIOD. And, no advertising or audience to help pay.
When the FT's were introduced it became a $ value / fun equation and they almost achieved critical mass but were hit with a slowing world economy and were dependent on the customers doing the marketing. It almost worked. I'm not refering to the design of the FT's here but I think the concept of their model may apply to your question.
It takes more than good design and manufacturing to work. It takes a complete system that considers the already mentioned plus marketing, promotion,class organization, race organization, cost of competing etc ,etc. I don't think there is enough financial rewards in the business to do what it takes to achieve what your suggesting. Fun and personal satisfaction, maybe? "You know what it takes to make a million in the boat business etc" ( is a "Microsoft 7.5" on the horizon? :unsure: )

#68 furcoat

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:54 AM




"Oh you will need to sign a non disclosure agreement on price."

Now why didn't I think of that? :rolleyes:

-jim lee



Saw your auction Jim, well done it was very insightful. I was quite fearful for you. My point on this is TS was remotely serious I would sell to him at COST, which as you know you generally dont want as public information!!! Although I have learned in this forum that is a betrayal of trust :P if I can get 5 - 10 out there pretty quickly at a great price (not all at cost :blink: ) hopefully they will gain some momentum. From this forum it sounds like 8m boats are dead and buried, 6.5- 7 m boats are going to weight 250 - 300 kgs and go faster (which in my world is unlikely as theer are some pretty solid physics that debate that!!, we want crew of 1 and at a pinch 2 :o and be able to tow it behind a push bike because a 600 Kg boat can not be towed behind a car, they are too heavy!

It would be great to see TS in a winged shitter!






i dont know about the 600kg being an issue to tow, but 3.5m width will create some interest.

the police have bashed people to death for not much in that part of the world.


It has fold out wings mate, trailer width is 2.4 M



How about less typee typee and more mixy mixy, vaccy baggy, sandy sandy ....

or Goggs won't have his new boat in time for the B2B. B)

#69 Steam Flyer

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 07:33 PM

fewer, not less


Depends on if the lawyers/MBAs in question are approaching Dan Myers size individually, kinda don't it ??

But thanks for looking!

B)

FB- Doug

#70 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:05 AM

So will Kiss be doing Airlie this year?

#71 Team WIld

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:17 AM

So will Kiss be doing Airlie this year?


Yeah, but expecting mid fleet finishes! Bit embarrasing having the current fastest boat with a pretty average crew, but we will have fun:)

#72 scottmax

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:29 PM


So will Kiss be doing Airlie this year?


Yeah, but expecting mid fleet finishes! Bit embarrasing having the current fastest boat with a pretty average crew, but we will have fun:)


You may want to add to this "no concept of the basic RRS".
Watch this guy on the race course guys he is dangerous with no clue on how to deal with even the most basic of Port/Starboard incidences.

#73 GybeSet®

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:26 AM

.
not surprising
but good to put up the warning for all

#74 Team WIld

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:57 AM

I wasnt going to even bother responding to such rubbish, maybe Scott you need to look up rule 69 because your actions are very much subject to this rule. You claim a port starboard incident, yet you didnt need to bear away, you also claimed bouy room yet had 6 meters to get a contender through. You may be nervous around larger boats and this is fine. If you felt so aggreved to carry such a burden you should have called me on a penalty, but NOOOOO because while I will give it to you we were close, maybe 3 meters apart we were able to clear you while on Port and you DID NOT have to bear away as was clearly evident on the gopro we had onboard. If you called us on a P/S infringement while I would have done a turn to avoid any ambiguity but YOU DIDNT and If you DID and we didnt do it you should have protested if you are so aggrieved. There wouldnt be anyone on here that hasnt had close calls or even incidents when racing in large fleets for long enough and they either sort it out on the water, in the protest room or get over it. When you came past us after the race mouthing off you were told several times to protest if you felt so strongly about it, but ytou didnt because you know that you had no protest.

The funny thing is you told a couple of people at the regatta I dont even know the Port/Starboard rule and was dangerous, funny enough you were overheard by someone who was my coach when I was an Australian school team sailing member, we all had a laugh:lol: ! Anyway there is always two sides to a story you have yours and I have video evidence!!! That said I was over it Sunday. I am happy to pay for your councelling if you need it.

GS you have been sailing long enough to understand the process, Call it on the water if penalty isnt done take it to the protest room or get over it. I was just waiting for your cheap comment and there it was as predictable as ever.

#75 Feral

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:04 AM

Is the footage from Race 1 or Race 2. Which P/S do you have footage of. Hope it,s race 1 that was a classic fuck up.

#76 Evo

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:05 AM

that grenade had a long fuse but it did eventually go off

post the vid TW...or it never happened :)

this is awesome...gobby issuing warnings...could be all time greatness here folks

#77 Team WIld

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:03 AM

At the end of the day it was a great regatta thanks to Tinaroo sailing club we had a great time. Also thanks to Dan for helping me out with the crew, sorry the boom broke and we didnt get to fly the kite. Was so painfully slow with those big downwind legs! We got some great nnews footage up here of Kiss as well as some great pics from the paper with a redsky behind her at anchor, bloody awesome. Sorry to Scott if you honestly feel so aggrieved but I stand by my earlier comments.

#78 scottmax

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:35 AM

I wasnt going to even bother responding to such rubbish, maybe Scott you need to look up rule 69 because your actions are very much subject to this rule. You claim a port starboard incident, yet you didnt need to bear away, you also claimed bouy room yet had 6 meters to get a contender through. You may be nervous around larger boats and this is fine. If you felt so aggreved to carry such a burden you should have called me on a penalty, but NOOOOO because while I will give it to you we were close, maybe 3 meters apart we were able to clear you while on Port and you DID NOT have to bear away as was clearly evident on the gopro we had onboard. If you called us on a P/S infringement while I would have done a turn to avoid any ambiguity but YOU DIDNT and If you DID and we didnt do it you should have protested if you are so aggrieved. There wouldnt be anyone on here that hasnt had close calls or even incidents when racing in large fleets for long enough and they either sort it out on the water, in the protest room or get over it. When you came past us after the race mouthing off you were told several times to protest if you felt so strongly about it, but ytou didnt because you know that you had no protest.

The funny thing is you told a couple of people at the regatta I dont even know the Port/Starboard rule and was dangerous, funny enough you were overheard by someone who was my coach when I was an Australian school team sailing member, we all had a laugh:lol: ! Anyway there is always two sides to a story you have yours and I have video evidence!!! That said I was over it Sunday. I am happy to pay for your councelling if you need it.

GS you have been sailing long enough to understand the process, Call it on the water if penalty isnt done take it to the protest room or get over it. I was just waiting for your cheap comment and there it was as predictable as ever.


I'm game I will take this point by point.
The bouy room incident you refer to I was just making sure you knew what the rule was after I saw you look like a deer in a set of head light in the first incident (another P/S incident) which I really hope you will post of race one, yes I was nervous as you showed no clue in this very first incident. If you remember my exact words where a polite "do i need to ask for bouy room" and I did this with a great deal of space from the mark to give you time to react in case you where as bad as you showed on the first leg of race 1. (again please have this on go pro and post it it will give all on these boards a great laugh). I have to add so people understand how slow you where going I sail a contender not the fastest boat in the conditions of 8-10 knots down wind what were you doing there in first place you should have been miles ahead, awesome investment you made there to be able to race the contenders around the course.

The second incident you referred to, as I was still very nervous around you, I called starboard 2-3 times before you saw me. Your first reaction was to point higher that helped your cause but I still had you at the main sheet traveller, I was bearing away to avoid you from this moment around 5 boat lengths from you on 3-5 degrees from my course, you then changed your mind and started to bear away but by this stage it was to late I then called you through and I passed your transom. Please post the go pro of this also it will show what I have described. You probably think I did not bear away as I was a long way out when I started (again nervous of you specifically), I dropped a fair bit of main sheet also 4-6 inches.

I did not ask you to do any penalty turn nor did I state protest as I passed your vessel, the reason for this is very simple this would have majorly cut into my social life after the race and was very much not worth the hassle. I did have a bbq to cook and beer to drink this is much more important to me than sitting in a protest room with a bloke who should know better if you were on the Australian sailing team.

This is not a cheap comment, this is what I was going to do as I told you on the water, let as many people as possible know you are dangerous and should not be in charge of a high performance sports boat as you have money does not buy you talent.

I stand by my comment that you do not fully under stand the port/starboard rule. There are 2 clear instances in this 1 regatta where you got it very wrong and had no rights in both, the only reason there was no protest was because it was the bonnydoon regatta and we all go up to have a great time with our families drink a couple of beers and interrupt that with a couple of organised races in a great location. Pull that shit a any other regatta and you will waste a lot of you life in a protest room. I prefer to sit with my mates drink beer and talk about sailing than go to any protest room.

When I came to you boat after the race I may still have been a little upset as I do not suffer fools at all, you started to get lippy by trying to character assasinate me calling me names and some very childish stuff, the best comment from you was how I sail the contender so I do not have to race any one design, that is funny coming from a bloke who shows up to a regatta to sail against just himself, I may have had small number but I still managed to ring around and of the 4 competitive contenders in NQ all were at this regatta, not bad. And if you really look into it we where the biggest one design in our division that is yours and mine.

Please post the go pro footage of both incidences I would love to see it.

#79 Team WIld

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:11 AM


I wasnt going to even bother responding to such rubbish, maybe Scott you need to look up rule 69 because your actions are very much subject to this rule. You claim a port starboard incident, yet you didnt need to bear away, you also claimed bouy room yet had 6 meters to get a contender through. You may be nervous around larger boats and this is fine. If you felt so aggreved to carry such a burden you should have called me on a penalty, but NOOOOO because while I will give it to you we were close, maybe 3 meters apart we were able to clear you while on Port and you DID NOT have to bear away as was clearly evident on the gopro we had onboard. If you called us on a P/S infringement while I would have done a turn to avoid any ambiguity but YOU DIDNT and If you DID and we didnt do it you should have protested if you are so aggrieved. There wouldnt be anyone on here that hasnt had close calls or even incidents when racing in large fleets for long enough and they either sort it out on the water, in the protest room or get over it. When you came past us after the race mouthing off you were told several times to protest if you felt so strongly about it, but ytou didnt because you know that you had no protest.

The funny thing is you told a couple of people at the regatta I dont even know the Port/Starboard rule and was dangerous, funny enough you were overheard by someone who was my coach when I was an Australian school team sailing member, we all had a laugh:lol: ! Anyway there is always two sides to a story you have yours and I have video evidence!!! That said I was over it Sunday. I am happy to pay for your councelling if you need it.

GS you have been sailing long enough to understand the process, Call it on the water if penalty isnt done take it to the protest room or get over it. I was just waiting for your cheap comment and there it was as predictable as ever.


I'm game I will take this point by point.
The bouy room incident you refer to I was just making sure you knew what the rule was after I saw you look like a deer in a set of head light in the first incident (another P/S incident) which I really hope you will post of race one, yes I was nervous as you showed no clue in this very first incident. If you remember my exact words where a polite "do i need to ask for bouy room" and I did this with a great deal of space from the mark to give you time to react in case you where as bad as you showed on the first leg of race 1. (again please have this on go pro and post it it will give all on these boards a great laugh). I have to add so people understand how slow you where going I sail a contender not the fastest boat in the conditions of 8-10 knots down wind what were you doing there in first place you should have been miles ahead, awesome investment you made there to be able to race the contenders around the course.

The second incident you referred to, as I was still very nervous around you, I called starboard 2-3 times before you saw me. Your first reaction was to point higher that helped your cause but I still had you at the main sheet traveller, I was bearing away to avoid you from this moment around 5 boat lengths from you on 3-5 degrees from my course, you then changed your mind and started to bear away but by this stage it was to late I then called you through and I passed your transom. Please post the go pro of this also it will show what I have described. You probably think I did not bear away as I was a long way out when I started (again nervous of you specifically), I dropped a fair bit of main sheet also 4-6 inches.

I did not ask you to do any penalty turn nor did I state protest as I passed your vessel, the reason for this is very simple this would have majorly cut into my social life after the race and was very much not worth the hassle. I did have a bbq to cook and beer to drink this is much more important to me than sitting in a protest room with a bloke who should know better if you were on the Australian sailing team.

This is not a cheap comment, this is what I was going to do as I told you on the water, let as many people as possible know you are dangerous and should not be in charge of a high performance sports boat as you have money does not buy you talent.

I stand by my comment that you do not fully under stand the port/starboard rule. There are 2 clear instances in this 1 regatta where you got it very wrong and had no rights in both, the only reason there was no protest was because it was the bonnydoon regatta and we all go up to have a great time with our families drink a couple of beers and interrupt that with a couple of organised races in a great location. Pull that shit a any other regatta and you will waste a lot of you life in a protest room. I prefer to sit with my mates drink beer and talk about sailing than go to any protest room.

When I came to you boat after the race I may still have been a little upset as I do not suffer fools at all, you started to get lippy by trying to character assasinate me calling me names and some very childish stuff, the best comment from you was how I sail the contender so I do not have to race any one design, that is funny coming from a bloke who shows up to a regatta to sail against just himself, I may have had small number but I still managed to ring around and of the 4 competitive contenders in NQ all were at this regatta, not bad. And if you really look into it we where the biggest one design in our division that is yours and mine.

Please post the go pro footage of both incidences I would love to see it.



Mate, Build a bridge! I am sure when you read your comments in a few weeks time you will see how ridiclious you sound. And as for telling people how dangerous I am that will find you in a protest room as I said read rule 69. It was youy who was gobbing off, I was over it as soon as we crossed. You state my comments, all I sadi to you was take it to the protest room if you feel that strong about it. A few of my crew did (to be fair) tell you to pull your head in to which I told them to shut up and leave it so again you are wrong. By your statement a boat can not go onto port if there is another boat around, which is obviously wrong, a boat can go to port whenever they wish if they can not clear a starboard boat they have a few options duck, tack back or get penalised. The so called race one incident we did tack onto port ahead of the fleet and way above what we thought was the layline to the windward mark, when it became apparent that the actual mark was the one another 100 meters out (and not really a windward mark) we tacked back, so two tacks before the fleet was upon us no issues there. AND THIS MADE YOU SO NERVOUS THAT YOU NEEDED MORE THAN 6 METERS BUOY ROOM NOW THATS LAUGHABLE. YOU MUST HAVE BIONIC SIGHT AS WELL TO SEE THROUGH YOUR SAILS THE EXPRESSION ON MY FACE (YOU WERE TO WINDWARD...RIGHT?). Ill give you one thing you are a great story teller!!!

As far as our boatspeed, we beat you over the line every race and one race by 15 minutes. We didnt fly a spinnaker and used our number 2 headsail and sailed with 4 crew rather than 6. In atleats 3 races the contenders were able to plane. When we raced with 5 crew we daylighted the fleet so yup we were slow suprised we didnt come dead last but again we were there to have fun and figure out the boat and as you saw after the incident when we changed settings (we were trying different settings) we opened up a few hundred meters on a 1/2 windward leg (as we should), funny thing was you were sailing the best you could we were not. If we had run our kite we would have probably lapped you again as we should, wonder how our results would have been then? For the past few years there has been sportsboats at this regatta, unfortunatly this year they were not there.

At the end of the day you are spruking about shit nobody cares about, I reckon everyone on here has a story of P/S incidents and get over it, you seem to carry grudges and have class issues as you relate money/investments to the situation. It is you who is turning a mountain into a mole hill and only doing yourself harm.

BTW my mainsheet traveller is right on my transom and as for a 3 - 5 degree course change to avoid me!!!!! Bahahahahahaha at 5 boat lengths it would be a min of 15 -20 degrees, as I said you didnt need to change your course anyway post away I am tired of your dribble. Build a bridge, twist a gut, get an ulcer eitherway i dont care!

#80 facthunt

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:28 AM

this ones goin straight to the pool room.

#81 Feral

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:32 AM

Forgive us Sire. We were not aware we were in the presence of Greatness. Bloody Champion. You smashed up a fleet of Contenders, 5ohs & RS100s. Your coach must be so proud. What year did you represent Australia in Team Sailing and where? Have to go, there's some lovely filth over here Squire.

#82 scottmax

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:50 AM



I wasnt going to even bother responding to such rubbish, maybe Scott you need to look up rule 69 because your actions are very much subject to this rule. You claim a port starboard incident, yet you didnt need to bear away, you also claimed bouy room yet had 6 meters to get a contender through. You may be nervous around larger boats and this is fine. If you felt so aggreved to carry such a burden you should have called me on a penalty, but NOOOOO because while I will give it to you we were close, maybe 3 meters apart we were able to clear you while on Port and you DID NOT have to bear away as was clearly evident on the gopro we had onboard. If you called us on a P/S infringement while I would have done a turn to avoid any ambiguity but YOU DIDNT and If you DID and we didnt do it you should have protested if you are so aggrieved. There wouldnt be anyone on here that hasnt had close calls or even incidents when racing in large fleets for long enough and they either sort it out on the water, in the protest room or get over it. When you came past us after the race mouthing off you were told several times to protest if you felt so strongly about it, but ytou didnt because you know that you had no protest.

The funny thing is you told a couple of people at the regatta I dont even know the Port/Starboard rule and was dangerous, funny enough you were overheard by someone who was my coach when I was an Australian school team sailing member, we all had a laugh:lol: ! Anyway there is always two sides to a story you have yours and I have video evidence!!! That said I was over it Sunday. I am happy to pay for your councelling if you need it.

GS you have been sailing long enough to understand the process, Call it on the water if penalty isnt done take it to the protest room or get over it. I was just waiting for your cheap comment and there it was as predictable as ever.


I'm game I will take this point by point.
The bouy room incident you refer to I was just making sure you knew what the rule was after I saw you look like a deer in a set of head light in the first incident (another P/S incident) which I really hope you will post of race one, yes I was nervous as you showed no clue in this very first incident. If you remember my exact words where a polite "do i need to ask for bouy room" and I did this with a great deal of space from the mark to give you time to react in case you where as bad as you showed on the first leg of race 1. (again please have this on go pro and post it it will give all on these boards a great laugh). I have to add so people understand how slow you where going I sail a contender not the fastest boat in the conditions of 8-10 knots down wind what were you doing there in first place you should have been miles ahead, awesome investment you made there to be able to race the contenders around the course.

The second incident you referred to, as I was still very nervous around you, I called starboard 2-3 times before you saw me. Your first reaction was to point higher that helped your cause but I still had you at the main sheet traveller, I was bearing away to avoid you from this moment around 5 boat lengths from you on 3-5 degrees from my course, you then changed your mind and started to bear away but by this stage it was to late I then called you through and I passed your transom. Please post the go pro of this also it will show what I have described. You probably think I did not bear away as I was a long way out when I started (again nervous of you specifically), I dropped a fair bit of main sheet also 4-6 inches.

I did not ask you to do any penalty turn nor did I state protest as I passed your vessel, the reason for this is very simple this would have majorly cut into my social life after the race and was very much not worth the hassle. I did have a bbq to cook and beer to drink this is much more important to me than sitting in a protest room with a bloke who should know better if you were on the Australian sailing team.

This is not a cheap comment, this is what I was going to do as I told you on the water, let as many people as possible know you are dangerous and should not be in charge of a high performance sports boat as you have money does not buy you talent.

I stand by my comment that you do not fully under stand the port/starboard rule. There are 2 clear instances in this 1 regatta where you got it very wrong and had no rights in both, the only reason there was no protest was because it was the bonnydoon regatta and we all go up to have a great time with our families drink a couple of beers and interrupt that with a couple of organised races in a great location. Pull that shit a any other regatta and you will waste a lot of you life in a protest room. I prefer to sit with my mates drink beer and talk about sailing than go to any protest room.

When I came to you boat after the race I may still have been a little upset as I do not suffer fools at all, you started to get lippy by trying to character assasinate me calling me names and some very childish stuff, the best comment from you was how I sail the contender so I do not have to race any one design, that is funny coming from a bloke who shows up to a regatta to sail against just himself, I may have had small number but I still managed to ring around and of the 4 competitive contenders in NQ all were at this regatta, not bad. And if you really look into it we where the biggest one design in our division that is yours and mine.

Please post the go pro footage of both incidences I would love to see it.



Mate, Build a bridge! I am sure when you read your comments in a few weeks time you will see how ridiclious you sound. And as for telling people how dangerous I am that will find you in a protest room as I said read rule 69. It was youy who was gobbing off, I was over it as soon as we crossed. You state my comments, all I sadi to you was take it to the protest room if you feel that strong about it. A few of my crew did (to be fair) tell you to pull your head in to which I told them to shut up and leave it so again you are wrong. By your statement a boat can not go onto port if there is another boat around, which is obviously wrong, a boat can go to port whenever they wish if they can not clear a starboard boat they have a few options duck, tack back or get penalised. The so called race one incident we did tack onto port ahead of the fleet and way above what we thought was the layline to the windward mark, when it became apparent that the actual mark was the one another 100 meters out (and not really a windward mark) we tacked back, so two tacks before the fleet was upon us no issues there. AND THIS MADE YOU SO NERVOUS THAT YOU NEEDED MORE THAN 6 METERS BUOY ROOM NOW THATS LAUGHABLE. YOU MUST HAVE BIONIC SIGHT AS WELL TO SEE THROUGH YOUR SAILS THE EXPRESSION ON MY FACE (YOU WERE TO WINDWARD...RIGHT?). Ill give you one thing you are a great story teller!!!

As far as our boatspeed, we beat you over the line every race and one race by 15 minutes. We didnt fly a spinnaker and used our number 2 headsail and sailed with 4 crew rather than 6. In atleats 3 races the contenders were able to plane. When we raced with 5 crew we daylighted the fleet so yup we were slow suprised we didnt come dead last but again we were there to have fun and figure out the boat and as you saw after the incident when we changed settings (we were trying different settings) we opened up a few hundred meters on a 1/2 windward leg (as we should), funny thing was you were sailing the best you could we were not. If we had run our kite we would have probably lapped you again as we should, wonder how our results would have been then? For the past few years there has been sportsboats at this regatta, unfortunatly this year they were not there.

At the end of the day you are spruking about shit nobody cares about, I reckon everyone on here has a story of P/S incidents and get over it, you seem to carry grudges and have class issues as you relate money/investments to the situation. It is you who is turning a mountain into a mole hill and only doing yourself harm.

BTW my mainsheet traveller is right on my transom and as for a 3 - 5 degree course change to avoid me!!!!! Bahahahahahaha at 5 boat lengths it would be a min of 15 -20 degrees, as I said you didnt need to change your course anyway post away I am tired of your dribble. Build a bridge, twist a gut, get an ulcer eitherway i dont care!


I've only just started.

Mate, Build a bridge! I am sure when you read your comments in a few weeks time you will see how ridiclious you sound. And as for telling people how dangerous I am that will find you in a protest room as I said read rule 69.
Go nuts with this I will not retract my statement you are dangerous.

It was youy who was gobbing off, I was over it as soon as we crossed. You state my comments, all I sadi to you was take it to the protest room if you feel that strong about it. A few of my crew did (to be fair) tell you to pull your head in to which I told them to shut up and leave it so again you are wrong.
This is not true if I remember I can recall one of your crew mates and I think it was the female on you crew for you to stop talking as you were just giving me "ammunition" well guess what, she was right.

By your statement a boat can not go onto port if there is another boat around, which is obviously wrong, a boat can go to port whenever they wish if they can not clear a starboard boat they have a few options duck, tack back or get penalised.
This is why I think you are dangerous if you take up this option as a real option, guys that have this attitude have no right to be out on the race course. Rules 101 port boat shall always keep clear of starboard boat.

The so called race one incident we did tack onto port ahead of the fleet and way above what we thought was the layline to the windward mark, when it became apparent that the actual mark was the one another 100 meters out (and not really a windward mark) we tacked back, so two tacks before the fleet was upon us no issues there. AND THIS MADE YOU SO NERVOUS THAT YOU NEEDED MORE THAN 6 METERS BUOY ROOM NOW THATS LAUGHABLE. YOU MUST HAVE BIONIC SIGHT AS WELL TO SEE THROUGH YOUR SAILS THE EXPRESSION ON MY FACE (YOU WERE TO WINDWARD...RIGHT?). Ill give you one thing you are a great story teller!!!
Mate if you where to stupid to read the sailing instruction and really thought that the 1st mark of the course was where you were heading you still had no right to do what you did in the first race. If you wanted to go to this mark you should have been bearing off to go around the back of the fleet to get to this mark. But because of this incident you made it pretty clear you do not have any clue of what you were doing. My 9 year old daughter was sailing her first race ever at this regatta and she managed to find the first mark of the course with out to much trouble. You ex Australian sailing team member must be way to smart to read sailing instruction.

BTW my mainsheet traveller is right on my transom and as for a 3 - 5 degree course change to avoid me!!!!! Bahahahahahaha at 5 boat lengths it would be a min of 15 -20 degrees, as I said you didnt need to change your course anyway post away I am tired of your dribble. Build a bridge, twist a gut, get an ulcer eitherway i dont care!
Mate you might just want to check you maths on this one.

As far as our boatspeed, we beat you over the line every race and one race by 15 minutes. We didnt fly a spinnaker and used our number 2 headsail and sailed with 4 crew rather than 6. In atleats 3 races the contenders were able to plane. When we raced with 5 crew we daylighted the fleet so yup we were slow suprised we didnt come dead last but again we were there to have fun and figure out the boat and as you saw after the incident when we changed settings (we were trying different settings) we opened up a few hundred meters on a 1/2 windward leg (as we should), funny thing was you were sailing the best you could we were not. If we had run our kite we would have probably lapped you again as we should, wonder how our results would have been then? For the past few years there has been sportsboats at this regatta, unfortunatly this year they were not there.
I think you have a great investment there buddy to go out and beat up a few contender a 505 and a couple of RS100,s well done buddy well done.
I've been to the regatta for the last 5 years and I have seen the Sporties there only once and that was last year 3 showed up, this only happened because one of the skippers showed some initiative and made a few phone calls and organised it. Maybe you try this some time and organise something instead of waiting for somebody to call you and invite you and you super fast sports boats to sail some place.

Still waiting for the link to the go pro evidence.

#83 narecet

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:43 PM

The only way I can see to decide between these arguments is:

  • One person says that they have video evidence proving they are right
  • The other person says Why then I'd love to see it, please post it
  • The first person then does not post the video, even after repeated calls

I'm not saying that proves the case, but it's at least suggestive. Never a good idea to claim video evidence is in your favor but then not release it.

#84 GybeSet®

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

what is suggestive that you sail ?

#85 timber

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 02:17 PM

Gad!

This thread has "flipped and burned"

This crap is so much like a pair of Chihuahuas in a locked pink Caddilac in Houston in August. A lot of useless yapping

Back to focus on the question

i550 low 20's sailing , from WS

about $13K DIY in your garage

#86 timber

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:26 PM

Attached File  i550 Logo.jpg   356.49K   0 downloads

#87 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:12 PM

Good one guys!

Now the i550 mob are here again thinking they are sportboats!

Next Dougy will be here sprouting how a port tacked contender on foils will set the world of north Queensland pond sailing on fire!

Anyway, having a strong bow proves these close calls!

#88 timber

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:09 PM

The i550 rarely transitions transitions down to the third Mode. That's is why you are not aware there are so many all around you. I believe the ASBA will extend an invitation to the i550 to join the Association. Now I could be wrong, I used to think cordess drills were toys.

#89 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:55 AM

The i550 rarely transitions transitions down to the third Mode. That's is why you are not aware there are so many all around you. I believe the ASBA will extend an invitation to the i550 to join the Association. Now I could be wrong, I used to think cordess drills were toys.



Dont like your chances! Whilst for the scared sym banners might get pumped up chests beating you guys around the track, they would vote you guys out as well as soon as a well sailed one rocked up!

Its not about speed, its about preserving the in crowds ego, at all other boat owners expence!

#90 Feral

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:17 AM

Still waiting for the video. Guess you're scaming GoPro for some money as we speak afterall when an Auatralian Team Sailing Champion speaks the world stops. What year was it again and where. I missed your answer.

#91 scottmax

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:16 AM

Insert sound of crickets here.

The silence is amazing, where is this video proof.

#92 (p)Irate

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 11:39 AM

Insert sound of crickets here.

The silence is amazing, where is this video proof.

It's coming, slowly, like Wild round the race course.

#93 facthunt

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:17 PM

Forgive us Sire. We were not aware we were in the presence of Greatness. Bloody Champion. You smashed up a fleet of Contenders, 5ohs & RS100s. Your coach must be so proud. What year did you represent Australia in Team Sailing and where? Have to go, there's some lovely filth over here Squire.



Dun laoghaire Ireland.

#94 sea bogan

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:19 PM

Ok team wild 1 40 pounder of rum per race at airlie you v the new raptor

#95 scottmax

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 10:47 AM

Ok team wild 1 40 pounder of rum per race at airlie you v the new raptor


Team Wild has gone very quiet, why would that be?

Sorry SB I feel your free drinks for Airlie are not going to happen

#96 (p)Irate

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 08:55 PM


Ok team wild 1 40 pounder of rum per race at airlie you v the new raptor


Team Wild has gone very quiet, why would that be?

Sorry SB I feel your free drinks for Airlie are not going to happen

No sign of Wild on the entry list. No sign of us either :-(




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