43 replies to this topic

[Mephisto Cat]

The SA forum is overrun & in mayhem...

I had posted a thread seeking insight into options in and about the local area (Sailing, Living, Working) as I am looking seriously into a relocation for work...

My thread has been infiltrated by the SA occupy movement.

I'd appreciate any insights! Thanks!

Link to thread here:

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=132723


Thanks in advance!

[SereneSpeed]

Be careful with cross links! Don't contaminate CA!

[Harpoon]

If you've ever posted on SA, then you have become its victim.

[Murphness]

The SA forum is overrun & in mayhem...

I had posted a thread seeking insight into options in and about the local area (Sailing, Living, Working) as I am looking seriously into a relocation for work...

My thread has been infiltrated by the SA occupy movement.

I'd appreciate any insights! Thanks!

Link to thread here:

http://forums.sailin...howtopic=132723


Thanks in advance!

Georgetown is very nice. So is Boxford. The public school system gets mashed up with other towns for a few of the northern communities (My link). A lot of the towns around Andover are nice. It's the cities in northern mass that aren't typically all that great. I have no clue about freshwater sailing in that area, although I know NH has some decent lake racing. Your ocean sailing will be done in Marblehead, Salem and Beverly. Speaking of witch (see what I did there?), Salem is a nice city with a funky vibe, great food and real estate is still affordable. I have no idea what the schools are like.

Marblehead is the the Newport of Mass. It's chock full of ridiculous wait times for moorings, expensive yacht clubs, and sweet boats. If you approach from the right direction, you'll be welcomed into the scene quickly. Boston has a far more laid back sailing scene, we race beercans on Weds and have PHRF events just about every weekend. My club is cheap as hell, $600 for dues and $1 a foot for haul/storage/launch as once a year fee. Hingham/Cohasset are the next stop south, have a good population of sailors and it starts getting expensive again.

If you decide to bring your boat you will want to look in Salem for a mooring or slip. Don't even bother with Marblehead. If you want an amazing YC with amazing facilities join Eastern or Corinthian. The host the bigger regattas in Massbay and do a great job, they also have opti programs. Depths in the north shore welcome pretty much any draft. If you draw more than 7' keep the chart close by when you're in Boston Harbor. You WILL hit rocks or go soft aground in mud.

Are people cool? Most are. Like anywhere else there are plenty of elitist douche bags. If that's not the case you'll likely find most people will give you the shirt off their back, encourage you to come sailing and meet their friends, buy you drinks until you can't drive home, etc. but I think most in the sailing community are like that....

The biggest decision with the young kid will be private/public. You'll have an advantage in not commuting to Boston, as long as you're 15 miles or so from work the commute should be less then 30 mins....

If you have any specific town/community related questions feel free to PM me. I don't have kids and haven't done any of that sort of planning, but I've lived here all my life and can give you a good idea of what to expect from certain areas. I don't want to just start bashing places just in case someone here is from that town

Cheers,

Murphness

[Slim]

Hey Murphness, what about Swampscott? Just curious. Sorry to the OP for thread-jumping.

[kdh]

I grew up and live in the burbs W of Boston.

Newburyport and Georgetown are both nice, with more going on in Newburyport, and I believe there is a lot of ocean sailing out of there in the Merrimack River. Probably much less racing than Marblehead. But Marblehead is tough to get to. I imagine it would be a tough commute to the Lawrence area.

Around here people are loyal to friends, my best I've known since grade school (I'm 50). As a result it takes more of an investment of effort to get to know people--friendships are less casual, more permanent.

[Murphness]

Hey Murphness, what about Swampscott? Just curious. Sorry to the OP for thread-jumping.

Swampscott is a nice town too. About a 15 min drive to the Marblehead YC's. parts of it are on the water and it's prob more expensive there. Like anyplace, it has good and not as good areas. I wouldn't say there are any "bad" areas, where as Lynn has no shortage of those....

KDH is right about the longer term relationships to some extent, my closest friends are from highschool. I have a different subset of friends that sail though and I've met most of them in the last 5 years. It's very easy to make friends if you have sailing in common....

[kent_island_sailor]

A general word of warning about New England:
When I used to go to San Francisco it was no problem hooking up with cool people to do whatever.
New England.......not so much right away. You'll be dealing with people whose families have been there for a long time - maybe since before there even was a USA. It will take a bit more time to fit in for sure compared to San Fran.

[Murphness]

One thing I forgot to mention is the quality of beaches in the north shore. I'm originally from the South Shore (Milton) and grew up going to the cape and National Seashore all summer like everyone else in that area. Now I much prefer the beaches in the north. They're just as nice, if not nicer is some respects and you don't encounter the traffic and tourists you do on the cape.

Singing Beach, Cranes Beach, Wingaersheek Beach, Plum Island. Clear water and perfect sand. A NE swell will bring great surfable waves, too.

[Murphness]

A general word of warning about New England:
When I used to go to San Francisco it was no problem hooking up with cool people to do whatever.
New England.......not so much right away. You'll be dealing with people whose families have been there for a long time - maybe since before there even was a USA. It will take a bit more time to fit in for sure compared to San Fran.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't see this as true. yea, there are plenty of snobby assholes. There are also lots of really laid back people that are super friendly and welcoming. you'll need to find an outlet for meeting these people, especially if you're in a small town. If you actively sail, it will be no problem whats so ever. Like anything else, find like minded people who are actively doing things you like to do and you'll make fast friends....

[kent_island_sailor]

I have a somewhat unique insight into this. My family has been up there for ages and I had family in San Francisco too. When I was flying for a living I did a lot of back and forth in a short amount of time. If you are FROM San Francisco, New England won't seem that friendly - at first. I was trying to warn the OP to expect that so he wouldn't think everyone was a bunch of assholes - they're just a bit slower with new faces. IMHO

A general word of warning about New England:
When I used to go to San Francisco it was no problem hooking up with cool people to do whatever.
New England.......not so much right away. You'll be dealing with people whose families have been there for a long time - maybe since before there even was a USA. It will take a bit more time to fit in for sure compared to San Fran.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't see this as true. yea, there are plenty of snobby assholes. There are also lots of really laid back people that are super friendly and welcoming. you'll need to find an outlet for meeting these people, especially if you're in a small town. If you actively sail, it will be no problem whats so ever. Like anything else, find like minded people who are actively doing things you like to do and you'll make fast friends....

[TomTraubert]

A general word of warning about New England:
When I used to go to San Francisco it was no problem hooking up with cool people to do whatever.
New England.......not so much right away. You'll be dealing with people whose families have been there for a long time - maybe since before there even was a USA. It will take a bit more time to fit in for sure compared to San Fran.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't see this as true. yea, there are plenty of snobby assholes. There are also lots of really laid back people that are super friendly and welcoming. you'll need to find an outlet for meeting these people, especially if you're in a small town. If you actively sail, it will be no problem whats so ever. Like anything else, find like minded people who are actively doing things you like to do and you'll make fast friends....

Faster if my great-grandparents belonged to the same clubs as your great-grandparents

[Murphness]

I have a somewhat unique insight into this. My family has been up there for ages and I had family in San Francisco too. When I was flying for a living I did a lot of back and forth in a short amount of time. If you are FROM San Francisco, New England won't seem that friendly - at first. I was trying to warn the OP to expect that so he wouldn't think everyone was a bunch of assholes - they're just a bit slower with new faces. IMHO

A general word of warning about New England:
When I used to go to San Francisco it was no problem hooking up with cool people to do whatever.
New England.......not so much right away. You'll be dealing with people whose families have been there for a long time - maybe since before there even was a USA. It will take a bit more time to fit in for sure compared to San Fran.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't see this as true. yea, there are plenty of snobby assholes. There are also lots of really laid back people that are super friendly and welcoming. you'll need to find an outlet for meeting these people, especially if you're in a small town. If you actively sail, it will be no problem whats so ever. Like anything else, find like minded people who are actively doing things you like to do and you'll make fast friends....

I agree for the most part. The biggest issue is that people from New England don't travel much. I feel like Travel forces people to rely on locals insights which in turn drives you to accommodate newcomers to your own area. You will definitely have to put in a bit of extra time, but its worth it....

[Murphness]

A general word of warning about New England:
When I used to go to San Francisco it was no problem hooking up with cool people to do whatever.
New England.......not so much right away. You'll be dealing with people whose families have been there for a long time - maybe since before there even was a USA. It will take a bit more time to fit in for sure compared to San Fran.

Maybe I'm biased, but I don't see this as true. yea, there are plenty of snobby assholes. There are also lots of really laid back people that are super friendly and welcoming. you'll need to find an outlet for meeting these people, especially if you're in a small town. If you actively sail, it will be no problem whats so ever. Like anything else, find like minded people who are actively doing things you like to do and you'll make fast friends....

Faster if my great-grandparents belonged to the same clubs as your great-grandparents

This is 100% true. Nepotism is a way of life here...

[SemiSalt]

The biggest issue is that people from New England don't travel much.

(I only qualify to speak because my mother grew up in Andover.)

I know that it's not what Murph was alluding to, but a thing that varies a lot from area to area is how much driving people are willing to do. In the densely populated parts of the northeast, it's not very much. In Texas, some other town that's 20 miles away is a close neighbor. In CT or MA, that's a trip. I don't know if the roads reflect this sensibility, or simply reinforce it. There are some 30-mile commutes that are hard to do by car. Either there is no road, or too much traffic.

You should also be aware that Massachusetts is the most extreme Nanny State in the Union. There are high taxes and an intrusive government. If you happen to be a gun owner, you are probably aware of the state's reputation. (Check it out if you need to.) On the other hand, in the nice places, there is very high level of civilization, e.g. good schools, nice neighborhoods, good cultural institutions, etc.

[Cavelamb]

Most obnoxious aggressive drivers in the world!
And that's just the little old ladies.

[Slim]

I just moved here in April. I'm in Weymouth now but will most likely settle in Swampscott. It's got the water, decent schools and a commuter rail stop.

We think our family's been in Gloucester since 1691. Gloucester, Virginia. Maybe I won't mention that part.

Anyway I look forward to getting to know the sailing scene. I moved here from Chicago so high taxes are nothing new. I assume the level of corruption will be slightly lower.

[Murphness]

The biggest issue is that people from New England don't travel much.

(I only qualify to speak because my mother grew up in Andover.)

I know that it's not what Murph was alluding to, but a thing that varies a lot from area to area is how much driving people are willing to do. In the densely populated parts of the northeast, it's not very much. In Texas, some other town that's 20 miles away is a close neighbor. In CT or MA, that's a trip. I don't know if the roads reflect this sensibility, or simply reinforce it. There are some 30-mile commutes that are hard to do by car. Either there is no road, or too much traffic.

You should also be aware that Massachusetts is the most extreme Nanny State in the Union. There are high taxes and an intrusive government. If you happen to be a gun owner, you are probably aware of the state's reputation. (Check it out if you need to.) On the other hand, in the nice places, there is very high level of civilization, e.g. good schools, nice neighborhoods, good cultural institutions, etc.

You're right on the driving. Anything more than 2 miles away takes 30 mins to get to and it goes up exponentially every mile in distance....I live in Boston, so take the subway (The T) where ever I have to go. If I can't take the T there I don't bother going....I avoid driving at all cost! In my experience this is true for any densely populated area though, and I doubt you'd see a difference from Cali.

I don't own a gun and have never had the desire. If you do, and are concerned about your gun rights, New Hampshire is the place to be....I'm not going to comment on the Nanny State jab, but MA is about as far from Texas as you get....Most people you meet are intelligent and respectful and since there's virtually no where to hunt in eastern MA there's no need for a gun.

[Murphness]

Most obnoxious aggressive drivers in the world!
And that's just the little old ladies.

This might be true....

[Murphness]

I just moved here in April. I'm in Weymouth now but will most likely settle in Swampscott. It's got the water, decent schools and a commuter rail stop.

We think our family's been in Gloucester since 1691. Gloucester, Virginia. Maybe I won't mention that part.

Anyway I look forward to getting to know the sailing scene. I moved here from Chicago so high taxes are nothing new. I assume the level of corruption will be slightly lower.

Weymouth is nice, but anything south of Quincy makes commuting or even driving into Boston a chore (as I'm sure you've realized by now). Swampscott is prob the same distance but half the drive time.

If you need help finding a sailing ride let me know....

If you're gonna use the Gloucester line, make sure you say "glaustah"

[kent_island_sailor]

To help you out:
Boston Driving

Most obnoxious aggressive drivers in the world!
And that's just the little old ladies.

This might be true....

[oregonarchist]

To help you out:
Boston Driving

Most obnoxious aggressive drivers in the world!
And that's just the little old ladies.

This might be true....

Driving in Boston is a trip -- like no other place I have ever been, and I think I have driven in pretty much every part of the country. I cut my driving teeth in Detroit, MI, and have always found that prepared me pretty well for driving everywhere. There's nothing anywhere in the country like Detroit freeways at rush hour. Driving in Boston, though...

Was there on business a bunch of years ago, and just couldn't get the drivers there figured out. They are not more aggressive or faster or any particular thing, they just seemed nuts. Then, I read an article in something I picked up by chance that said the traffic in Boston operated more along the lines of nautical rules than typical road rules. It was true. Once I started driving like I was on the water, everything made perfect sense.

Just treat everything like you are approaching a starting line or mark, and the behaviors of all the other drivers make perfect sense. There is point ("mast abeam...") in merging/ changing lanes where right of way moves from one vehicle to another, right of way at corners and exits, everything. Don't know if it still applies, but I went from confused as hell to comfortable driving in one easy mind shift. My traveling companion, who had never sailed, was dumbstruck by how smoothly we were suddenly moving through the city and, having no experience with the nautical "rules of the road", could never quite get a hold of what make it all so predictable and easy to me all of a sudden. That experience still amazes me, and have never found any other place that drives like Boston.

[Murphness]

To help you out:
Boston Driving

Most obnoxious aggressive drivers in the world!
And that's just the little old ladies.

This might be true....

Driving in Boston is a trip -- like no other place I have ever been, and I think I have driven in pretty much every part of the country. I cut my driving teeth in Detroit, MI, and have always found that prepared me pretty well for driving everywhere. There's nothing anywhere in the country like Detroit freeways at rush hour. Driving in Boston, though...

Was there on business a bunch of years ago, and just couldn't get the drivers there figured out. They are not more aggressive or faster or any particular thing, they just seemed nuts. Then, I read an article in something I picked up by chance that said the traffic in Boston operated more along the lines of nautical rules than typical road rules. It was true. Once I started driving like I was on the water, everything made perfect sense.

Just treat everything like you are approaching a starting line or mark, and the behaviors of all the other drivers make perfect sense. There is point ("mast abeam...") in merging/ changing lanes where right of way moves from one vehicle to another, right of way at corners and exits, everything. Don't know if it still applies, but I went from confused as hell to comfortable driving in one easy mind shift. My traveling companion, who had never sailed, was dumbstruck by how smoothly we were suddenly moving through the city and, having no experience with the nautical "rules of the road", could never quite get a hold of what make it all so predictable and easy to me all of a sudden. That experience still amazes me, and have never found any other place that drives like Boston.

Spot on! Never thought of it this way, but it's an amazingly accurate comparison....

[Slim]

Any place on the North Shore to keep/launch a dingy (Laser, etc.)?

[Mephisto Cat]

Thanks everyone.

Great insight! - With a couple of elocution (&driving) lessons I may be close to passing for a local!

I don't think my grandparents belonged to any Yacht Club in new England - but I'll ask!

SemiSalt / Murph - I get your comments on the driving. I can see from the road maps that a handful of miles could take :30. I've been looking at the coast on Google Earth and I am amazed at the mooring fields.. wow!

Public transport is quite good in the Bay area. Relatively speaking, that is - in terms of California. IF you live in the most urban areas around SF bay... In the rest of California you'll starve to death without a car. It is virtually impossible to walk anywhere - especially in SoCal. -But you can easily drive 20 miles at 90 mph to get to the corner! (just not at rush hour!)

I love it! It will be interesting driving by boating right-of-way rules... I'll adapt to the driving. I've spent time driving in China (where you can use either side of the road to go either direction, and speed limits are, oh say +/- 75 Mph), Turkey (lived there for a while), and all over Eastern Europe... Or maybe I'll find a place within walking distance to the office!

Be careful with cross links! Don't contaminate CA!

-I've got all my vaccinations current & up to date!

[IrieMon]

Excellent analogy with the driving..... I spent 25+ yrs on Boston's NorthShore and it makes sense. Our downtown area had a 5-way intersection, only 2 of the intersecting roads had stop signs. Get your nose out and establish overlap, or stay home !

Most roads are meandering horse trails that eventually got paved.... very little "central planning" back in the day. Tons of history (maritime, revolutionary, etc), you should enjoy it.

[Cavelamb]

To help you out:
Boston Driving

Most obnoxious aggressive drivers in the world!
And that's just the little old ladies.

This might be true....

Driving in Boston is a trip -- like no other place I have ever been, and I think I have driven in pretty much every part of the country. I cut my driving teeth in Detroit, MI, and have always found that prepared me pretty well for driving everywhere. There's nothing anywhere in the country like Detroit freeways at rush hour. Driving in Boston, though...

Was there on business a bunch of years ago, and just couldn't get the drivers there figured out. They are not more aggressive or faster or any particular thing, they just seemed nuts. Then, I read an article in something I picked up by chance that said the traffic in Boston operated more along the lines of nautical rules than typical road rules. It was true. Once I started driving like I was on the water, everything made perfect sense.

Just treat everything like you are approaching a starting line or mark, and the behaviors of all the other drivers make perfect sense. There is point ("mast abeam...") in merging/ changing lanes where right of way moves from one vehicle to another, right of way at corners and exits, everything. Don't know if it still applies, but I went from confused as hell to comfortable driving in one easy mind shift. My traveling companion, who had never sailed, was dumbstruck by how smoothly we were suddenly moving through the city and, having no experience with the nautical "rules of the road", could never quite get a hold of what make it all so predictable and easy to me all of a sudden. That experience still amazes me, and have never found any other place that drives like Boston.

Way back some time last century I spent five or six weeks at DEC factory going through the PDP-11 schools.
The car was a rental, so WTF, go exploring.
But dam! What a bunch of nuts driving automobiles!

There seemed to be three reasons not to stop at red lights.
1 If it hadn't been red too long
2 If it wasn't going to be red much longer.
3 If it really didn't mean to be red.

I didn't see the nautical correlation. (Red to Right Returning ?)

But I think you hit it spot on!

STARBOARD!

[kdh]

Way back some time last century I spent five or six weeks at DEC factory going through the PDP-11 schools.
The car was a rental, so WTF, go exploring.
But dam! What a bunch of nuts driving automobiles!

There seemed to be three reasons not to stop at red lights.
1 If it hadn't been red too long
2 If it wasn't going to be red much longer.
3 If it really didn't mean to be red.

I didn't see the nautical correlation. (Red to Right Returning ?)

But I think you hit it spot on!

STARBOARD!

Love this, cave. Only the Boston digerati, like my dad, know that Digital is properly called DEC.

"Just a little bit red" is the way I describe it.

[Mung Breath]

The sailing 'rules of the road' analogy is spot on. I lived in the Back Bay for 10 years. Four realisms that always stuck with me:


1. Once a competing car is behind your driver's door handle, it doesn't exist (mastabeam?)
2. Red lights are to determine who was at fault after the fact (RC 'on-water' Judge)
3. As aggressive as they are, a true Boston driver still respects a well-executed screwing over
4. Driving style is the opposite of NYC

Brings back great memories!

[kdh]

I remember driving on the W coast, waiting in a marked right hand turn lane at a light when a blond (of course) on a bicycle said "hey, use your turn signal!" I was flabbergasted. A marked right turn lane? No ambiguity. What's the information conveyed?

There, a turn signal on a highway is met with allowing the intention by yielding to the other driver's desire to change lanes. Here, it's met with preventing it. The signal is a sign of weakness. The blinker is used only after the will of the lane changer is imposed, and only for a blink or two, out of courtesy.

That's the game here. Fucked up? Inconsiderate? Yes.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

My favorite was when a friend from Boston told me to stop looking left if I was changing lanes to the left. "You look RIGHT! That way they know you'll hit 'em if they don't let you in."

Hadn't occurred to me at the time that "looking" was a sign of weakness. Now, when in Boston, I basically don't look where I'm going. Or, at least it feels like that.

BV

[MoeAlfa]

Beware two complete reversals of traffic law in the "Hub", based on years of intimidation by bad drivers.

1. Cars entering a traffic circle (rotary, in local dialect) have de facto right of way. This is so prevalent that 3/5 locals actually think that's how the law is written.

2. At an intersection with a flashing yellow and a flashing red, yellow stops and red proceeds.

Sure, there are good people everywhere, but if you appreciate gratuitous disagreeableness as an art, you'll love it up there. I grew up in NYC, which is warm and friendly by comparison.

[kent_island_sailor]

I like the rule for the following situation:
You are on a 1-way 3 lane road coming up to an intersection.
You are not sure if you want to turn left or right.
What is the proper Boston procedure?
You drive in the center and erratically swerve left and right to make sure you have all three lanes available

[MoeAlfa]

I like the rule for the following situation:
You are on a 1-way 3 lane road coming up to an intersection.
You are not sure if you want to turn left or right.
What is the proper Boston procedure?
You drive in the center and erratically swerve left and right to make sure you have all three lanes available

Oh, absolutely! Boston is also the only place in CONUS where, as a rule, a minority of the cars in a designated turn lane have the intention of making the turn.

I do still find the "Boston Lefty" a useful move down here, though.

[Innocent Bystander]

My favorite was when a friend from Boston told me to stop looking left if I was changing lanes to the left. "You look RIGHT! That way they know you'll hit 'em if they don't let you in."

Hadn't occurred to me at the time that "looking" was a sign of weakness. Now, when in Boston, I basically don't look where I'm going. Or, at least it feels like that.

BV

I treat Boston just like Naples. Lanes and lights are advisory. Making eye contact is assent that they have teh right of way. Sidewalks are "joint use" for restaurants, pedestrians, scooters adn small cars.

[SemiSalt]

I treat Boston just like Naples.

A friend was in Naples for a few months on a business assignment. He said it was explained to him that to obey traffic signs was to show you were a person of no consequence. Any man of consequence would ignore them.

[Anomaly2]

I treat Boston just like Naples. Lanes and lights are advisory.

My own comparison between Boston and Italian drivers involves those in the north of Italy. Once, I flew into Milan, rented a car and drove about two hours east to visit my daughter. I met her at an in-progress dinner party and some of the others asked if I was faring OK with driving in Italy. I said "are you kidding, this is nothing. I'm from Rhode Island, I fly out of Logan often and drive with Massholes all the time, this is easy." I immediately heard howls of laughter from two people in her party who were from Boston.

Still, I remember being mesmerized (and a bit horrified) once while watching (from a sidewalk) the traffic scene at a large roundabout in Rome. I think those Rome drivers made the Bostonians look like pussies.....

[Dr. Electron]

London and Sydney, Australia are nightmares ... after all, they are all driving on the *wrong* side of the road . I vowed to never, ever, drive there again.

And then I went to Rome last summer ... unbelievable

[PNW Matt B]

I call bullshit again.

Anyone who claims to live in Paris six months of the year and doesn't mention Parisian drivers in a thread about horrible drivers is full of shit about something or other.

[MoeAlfa]

I treat Boston just like Naples. Lanes and lights are advisory.

My own comparison between Boston and Italian drivers involves those in the north of Italy. Once, I flew into Milan, rented a car and drove about two hours east to visit my daughter. I met her at an in-progress dinner party and some of the others asked if I was faring OK with driving in Italy. I said "are you kidding, this is nothing. I'm from Rhode Island, I fly out of Logan often and drive with Massholes all the time, this is easy." I immediately heard howls of laughter from two people in her party who were from Boston.

A German colleague and I once took a day off from a conference in Florence and, with great trepidation, rented a car and did a circuit down to the coast. The driving was entirely benign and what an idyllic day!

[rattus32]

I treat Boston just like Naples.

A friend was in Naples for a few months on a business assignment. He said it was explained to him that to obey traffic signs was to show you were a person of no consequence. Any man of consequence would ignore them.

I had the same experience in Bolzano... There was a an old 5-sided plaza into which 5 roads converged - kind of a roundabout without the round or same direction of circulation part. We called it the "you snooze, you lose" intersection; first, we hesitated and flow was established on some other direction. Next time, we pushed on regardless along with the existing flow and made our way across. Later, we simply ignored what anyone else was doing and sailed into the intersection and went wherever we wanted - worked a charm.

Yeah, those Boston driving lessons came in handy ;-)

Mike

[Salazar]

I call bullshit again.

Matt, you're feeding the troll... (and so am I by posting this I suppose so I'll stop now).

[Bob Perry]

35 years ago the driving in Taiwan was very interesting. There was this, "the first one to make eye contact loses" approach. But I only drove once there, when my host was too hung over to drive one morning.

[Bruce T. Shark]

Most obnoxious aggressive drivers in the world!
And that's just the little old ladies.

This might be true....

When my grandmother was 85 the State of Mass renewed her driver's license for another 5 years. She lived in Natick with her daughter till she was 105.

She lived in a big house just up the street from the Cottage Park YC.