Jump to content


Dalton Blasts Designer


  • Please log in to reply
232 replies to this topic

#1 Desprit

Desprit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 282 posts
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

Article in Stuff Today

#2 paul gore

paul gore

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Location:Hamble, UK

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:42 PM

Dalton is the only looser here. What does he gain by upsetting his designer when there's still half the race to go??

My understanding is that the ETNZ design team is headed by Design Coordinator Nick Holroyd, also for the AC72, so he must be blamed as well?

#3 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:54 PM

Dalton is the only looser here.


he always seemed fairly uptight to me. learn something new every day

#4 Moonduster

Moonduster

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,384 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:01 AM

While it's more typical to blame lousy peformance on one's sail maker - if the problem is the design, why shouldn't the designer take the blame?

#5 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:41 AM

How gentlemanly of him to raise his concerns in a media interview rather than personally, good example of effective communication, cooperation, and teambuilding. "watch out for the wheels under the bus!"

#6 Scarecrow

Scarecrow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,694 posts
  • Location:Melbourne, Aus

Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:44 AM

There is no way given Dalton's experiance in the Volvo that there wasn't a.lot of discussion between him and Botin on how the boat should be optimised. There is no way know that Dalton rang Botin and said please design me a Volvo 70 and left him to it.

#7 narecet

narecet

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,221 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:57 AM

But do you know that the boat is in practice performing up to the VPP's at the angles in question? It does seem either unlikely or absurd that the boat would be performing exactly as Dalton expected but now he is saying this. (I don't know which, if either.)

#8 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:13 AM

There is no way given Dalton's experiance in the Volvo that there wasn't a.lot of discussion between him and Botin on how the boat should be optimised. There is no way know that Dalton rang Botin and said please design me a Volvo 70 and left him to it.


Well, here is what Botin said about the design process earlier:

"The way we have worked with the Volvo Open 70 is the way we have worked with the TP52. The guys in the team have lots of ideas and one of the characteristics of this team which makes it so interesting to work with, is that the whole team is like a unit."

"Everyone comes along with ideas and puts them on the table. Everyone is free to come in and discuss things, they are all very knowledgeable about the design and what makes boats go fast. That, for a designer, is something that is very inspiring and very good. Everybody has ideas and they are good ideas. And you see that in their boats.

(Source: http://www.volvoocea...lino-Botin.html)

On the other hand, he also stated this about the design per se:

“When the last race finished we had a clear idea of the kind of boat we wanted to design for the next edition and it was nothing like the design for PUMA,” he said.

“The final design for CAMPER is really not too far from our initial concept for the boat.”

(Source: http://www.volvoocea...or-success.html)

#9 MSafiri

MSafiri

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 195 posts
  • Location:Paris/France

Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:36 AM

Mr. Dalton, Harden the Fuck Up and win. Just to add a drop of kaka to the pool: Camper Emirates Team New Zealand, got the feeling that the 1st two is the one who finance the majority of the race. Next time, the boat should be called New Zealand, then game will change abit

#10 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,729 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:35 AM

Dalton has an enviable record of success and I'm sure he knows what he's doing. However, Camper made a major tactical error which lost them the lead on the leg and had a sail failure which cost them hours and were on their worst point of sail and still only missed the podium by a couple of minutes. Blaming the designer for not producing a competitive boat may help his team win but I doubt it is justice.

#11 Jason AUS

Jason AUS

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,862 posts
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:00 AM

Nothing new here.... Ever read Chichester's "Gipsy Moth circles the World" ??
Apparently John Illingworth was good enough to win the first Hobart race, but he was a shithouse yacht designer who created a dangerous beast. So... The client is always unhappy?

#12 Terrafirma

Terrafirma

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:10 AM

Memo to Grant Dalton "You have arguably the best sailing team in the world and you choose a designer whom the other teams have not selected in 2012, why not choose JuanK and let TNZ do the rest?"

Well it's easy to see Dalton and ETNZ choosing Botin & Carkeek after their TP52 domination last time around. For Dalton to blame B&C so early is surprising, when you are competing against a proven designer who has dominated the Volvo of late, such as JuanK why change? You have 3 teams choosing JuanK and Camper is 3rd but you wonder where they would be sailing a JuanK would be..? LOL

Dalton is a loud mouth, but can't question his passion, but I love the early mud throwing..!

#13 Terrafirma

Terrafirma

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,537 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

Nothing new here.... Ever read Chichester's "Gipsy Moth circles the World" ??
Apparently John Illingworth was good enough to win the first Hobart race, but he was a shithouse yacht designer who created a dangerous beast. So... The client is always unhappy?


Who has been the most successful Hobart designer..? Farr...? Murray office won 2 years in a row 1994-1995. Farr or R&P..?

#14 GBH

GBH

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Location:mostly Oz

Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:17 PM

While it's more typical to blame lousy peformance on one's sail maker - if the problem is the design, why shouldn't the designer take the blame?


Well who chose the designer Mr Dalton? And its never ever the sailors or the REMFs that are in error! Except of course the navigator that is.

Get real - these are multi-faceted operations and its very hard to get everything right all the time.

Be good to see here cream the leg and maybe GD will be the on the goodbye ticket - dinosaurs have had their day.

#15 supine

supine

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,322 posts
  • Location:Frankfurt/Main, Germany

Posted 18 March 2012 - 12:43 PM

Pretty sure the design is credited to Botin/ETNZ for a reason Dalts. <_<

#16 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:29 PM

Asked if he had confronted the designer yet, Dalton said: "No, well I haven't actually. It's there for him to see and me to see. I just guess we aren't going to be building any boats together again."


Stay classy Grant.

The fact they were fourth just minutes behind Telefonica and hours behind Groupama and Puma in the last 5000+ mile leg (which included plenty of reaching) is because they are like unto sailing gods. Clearly, taking a total shit-dog of a boat and being able to keep up with rocketships means their sailmaking, navagation, and sailing are lightyears beyond those of the mere mortals on the other boats. If they were in a JK boat (and he also is a god. Except a god among yacht designers), this race would be game over already. No contest. The other teams don't understand how lucky they are that Camper made the wrong choice here.

They could probably beat these guys in a Mac26X if they needed to.

They are that good.

:rolleyes:

#17 Koukel

Koukel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,022 posts
  • Location:Portland, Oregon
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 18 March 2012 - 01:46 PM

They could probably beat these guys in a Mac26X if they needed to.
They are that good.
:rolleyes:

They are so good that two thirds of their team from the past twenty years now sail on other campaigns! Or have I got it all wrong?

Koukel

#18 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 18 March 2012 - 02:42 PM


They could probably beat these guys in a Mac26X if they needed to.
They are that good.
:rolleyes:

They are so good that two thirds of their team from the past twenty years now sail on other campaigns! Or have I got it all wrong?

Koukel


They are so good God asks them for advice.

#19 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:21 PM



They could probably beat these guys in a Mac26X if they needed to.
They are that good.
:rolleyes:

They are so good that two thirds of their team from the past twenty years now sail on other campaigns! Or have I got it all wrong?

Koukel


They are so good God asks them for advice.



Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:

#20 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:32 PM




They could probably beat these guys in a Mac26X if they needed to.
They are that good.
:rolleyes:

They are so good that two thirds of their team from the past twenty years now sail on other campaigns! Or have I got it all wrong?

Koukel


They are so good God asks them for advice.



Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:


The Most Interesting Man in The World has a tramp stamp that reads simply "ETNZ".

#21 Lost in Translation

Lost in Translation

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 888 posts
  • Location:Atlanta, GA

Posted 18 March 2012 - 03:40 PM

OK, serious question on Camper's design and would be interested in others' thoughts. Watching the in-port racing yesterday, I noticed that Camper has the bow more pressed than the other designs. The boat may have a little less immersed volume in the transom, and the boat seemed to throw a lot more water at the bow than the other designs.

Looking at the boat sail, I'd guess it would do better upwind and worse reaching. And this seems to be the case. What I don't understand is that the original news on the boat's design was that it was optimized for reaching and would hold its own upwind. Anyone know the thinking behind that?

I've wondered if they couldn't shift more weight aft to get the boat to a trim level similar to the others, but that may have other implications.

#22 haligonian winterr

haligonian winterr

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 720 posts
  • Location:Halifax, NS
  • Interests:Going Fast.

Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:10 PM

OK, serious question on Camper's design and would be interested in others' thoughts. Watching the in-port racing yesterday, I noticed that Camper has the bow more pressed than the other designs. The boat may have a little less immersed volume in the transom, and the boat seemed to throw a lot more water at the bow than the other designs.

Looking at the boat sail, I'd guess it would do better upwind and worse reaching. And this seems to be the case. What I don't understand is that the original news on the boat's design was that it was optimized for reaching and would hold its own upwind. Anyone know the thinking behind that?

I've wondered if they couldn't shift more weight aft to get the boat to a trim level similar to the others, but that may have other implications.


Keel is more forward than other boats, I assume that's the reason for the bow-down trim, while they also have the cockpit set up for max-aft crew weight (aft pedestal between wheels).

Makes sense that more weight forward would deter the boat from getting bow-up and planing, but I don't know how much the stack would be able to influence that, and it looks like it's moved to the push-pits while reaching/running anyways.

HW

#23 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:20 PM

Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:


methinks you need to read the article again.

#24 Carboninit

Carboninit

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,200 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 06:27 PM

Yeah there so good results lie. Simple fact is they employed a design office , and to blame the designer is bollocks .They have so far fucked up as a crew . As mentioned these boats have to be sailed differently, they have not mastered it and nor are they likely too with pointless egoes on board.I wonder who they will blame next.

#25 bulbouskeel

bulbouskeel

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 102 posts
  • Location:eastern LIS
  • Interests:some

Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:20 PM


Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:


methinks you need to read the article again.



Dude I think he was being sarcastic...

#26 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:21 PM

I just asked Dalton whether the article is an accurate portrayal of his conversation with the reporter:

"Yep, all accurate. The thing is, I remember the conversations about stability vs. induced drag. You are totally reliant on the designer to get the boat right, in the end he leads you where he wants to, to a point. The structures were done in-house and so far, we have had no issues (touch wood). The Juan K boats also have different boards, not just hull shape. We'll see how it develops, but when you are a commercial team, you expect results, and it starts at the designers."



Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:


methinks you need to read the article again.



Dude I think he was being sarcastic...

I was responding to the sarcasm's point.

#27 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 18 March 2012 - 07:51 PM

Yeah there so good results lie. Simple fact is they employed a design office , and to blame the designer is bollocks .They have so far fucked up as a crew . As mentioned these boats have to be sailed differently, they have not mastered it and nor are they likely too with pointless egoes on board.I wonder who they will blame next.


Good?

They aren't just "good". They are Titans. Olympian gods more correctly. Just ask Dalts, he'll tell you how great they are. The reason they aren't already finished with leg 6 is they are hobbled by this pig-dog dumptruck. If there were speed to be had in it, they would have found it already, just by looking at it. As it is, they have been leading the fleet in Leg 6 now by sheer force of will alone, despite dragging this mean, brutish tub of carbon around with them. But don't be surprised if they win a leg or two even despite this glaring handicap. The creamiest of creams will always rise to the top.

All joking aside, it gives you more respect for Ian Walker. At least Abu Dhabi is taking it with class and not throwing Farr or anybody else under the bus for their performance to date.

#28 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:00 PM

Question: If all their analysis of all the numbers makes it clear to the team that the design just cannot keep up with the other boats in straight-line speed, do you think there is something wrong with Dalts blaming the designer for that?

If so, why?

And would it be better to keep it a secret?

#29 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,729 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:05 PM

No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.

#30 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:15 PM

Question: If all their analysis of all the numbers makes it clear to the team that the design just cannot keep up with the other boats in straight-line speed, do you think there is something wrong with Dalts blaming the designer for that?

If so, why?

And would it be better to keep it a secret?


Do you see Abu Dhabi throwing Farr under the bus? It's low buck. Plus, the degree that the boat may or may not be "slower" is so small that it is hardly even measurable, and nearly impossible to attribute to bad design over bad sail design, bad steering, bad tactics, bad trimming (including ballast trim), etc.. The top four boats have shown themselves to be so closely matched that the smallest of details are all that separate them.

My question is, if they are indeed sailing a slow piece of shit, it must be only their pure, superior sailing ability which has allowed them to stay with all the other boats in all of the legs so far, right? Despite making [what we mere mortals probably wrongly see as] several critical strategic errors (such as half-heartedly following Groupama in Leg 1).

Sorry, that's bullshit. But it's good copy!

#31 lead

lead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:17 PM

they have said the boat is competative upwind and down, its reaching where it lacks the speed of the jaun k boats. what i seen so far that seems correct. On a tight reach groupama and tele are rocket ships.
What was the Auckland inshore race a bloody windward leeward, what have they been sailing so far in this leg?
They are hoping for alot of running in this leg which they should get. They might even win this leg if that is the case but that doesn't take away the fact that it doesnt have the legs of the k boats on a reach.


Yeah there so good results lie. Simple fact is they employed a design office , and to blame the designer is bollocks .They have so far fucked up as a crew . As mentioned these boats have to be sailed differently, they have not mastered it and nor are they likely too with pointless egoes on board.I wonder who they will blame next.


Good?

They aren't just "good". They are Titans. Olympian gods more correctly. Just ask Dalts, he'll tell you how great they are. The reason they aren't already finished with leg 6 is they are hobbled by this pig-dog dumptruck. If there were speed to be had in it, they would have found it already, just by looking at it. As it is, they have been leading the fleet in Leg 6 now by sheer force of will alone, despite dragging this mean, brutish tub of carbon around with them. But don't be surprised if they win a leg or two even despite this glaring handicap. The creamiest of creams will always rise to the top.

All joking aside, it gives you more respect for Ian Walker. At least Abu Dhabi is taking it with class and not throwing Farr or anybody else under the bus for their performance to date.



#32 lead

lead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:33 PM

he's not, he's been quite open in the fact that he hasnt been to impressed with some of the calls on board the boat. He even sent davis and joey up to sanya to try and sort it out.
he's just pointing out that Botin promised him an all round boat. its not a all round boat, The jaun K's are an all round boat.

No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.



#33 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:38 PM

he's not, he's been quite open in the fact that he hasnt been to impressed with some of the calls on board the boat. He even sent davis and joey up to sanya to try and sort it out.
he's just pointing out that Botin promised him an all round boat. its not a all round boat, The jaun K's are an all round boat.


No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.


Leg 1 - Second (ahead of two JK boats)
Leg 2 - Second (ahead of two JK boats)
Leg 3 - Third (ahead of one JK boat)
Leg 4 - Fourth (by less than 2 minutes, finally all JK boats beat them)

Poor Dalts and his dumptruck. They are sailing gods to perservere this way.

I guess we can put you down as "they are sailing gods, hobbled by a one-trick pony"

#34 lead

lead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:51 PM

no not at all limp dick.
i've been more impressed by sanya's performance and crew work.
For a bunch of guys who got thrown together at the last minute they have been sailing bloody well.
I guess we can put you down as "they are sailing gods, hobbled by a one-trick pony"
What part of they have made some shit calls on the boat did you not understand pin dick


he's not, he's been quite open in the fact that he hasnt been to impressed with some of the calls on board the boat. He even sent davis and joey up to sanya to try and sort it out.
he's just pointing out that Botin promised him an all round boat. its not a all round boat, The jaun K's are an all round boat.


No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.


Leg 1 - Second (ahead of two JK boats)
Leg 2 - Second (ahead of two JK boats)
Leg 3 - Third (ahead of one JK boat)
Leg 4 - Fourth (by less than 2 minutes, finally all JK boats beat them)

Poor Dalts and his dumptruck. They are sailing gods to perservere this way.

I guess we can put you down as "they are sailing gods, hobbled by a one-trick pony"



#35 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:57 PM

no not at all limp dick.
i've been more impressed by sanya's performance and crew work.
For a bunch of guys who got thrown together at the last minute they have been sailing bloody well.
I guess we can put you down as "they are sailing gods, hobbled by a one-trick pony"
What part of they have made some shit calls on the boat did you not understand pin dick



he's not, he's been quite open in the fact that he hasnt been to impressed with some of the calls on board the boat. He even sent davis and joey up to sanya to try and sort it out.
he's just pointing out that Botin promised him an all round boat. its not a all round boat, The jaun K's are an all round boat.


No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.


Leg 1 - Second (ahead of two JK boats)
Leg 2 - Second (ahead of two JK boats)
Leg 3 - Third (ahead of one JK boat)
Leg 4 - Fourth (by less than 2 minutes, finally all JK boats beat them)

Poor Dalts and his dumptruck. They are sailing gods to perservere this way.

I guess we can put you down as "they are sailing gods, hobbled by a one-trick pony"


When you have nothing, you gotta stoop to insult, I understand that, doesn't make it less lame.

Reconcile the results with the lack of overall boatspeed, if possible.

Certainly it's easier to shit on your designer, in the press, with no definitive evidence that is the cause, rather than shut the fuck up and sail better.

Your mileage, as a homer, obviously varies.

#36 tls

tls

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 703 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:07 PM

Question: If all their analysis of all the numbers makes it clear to the team that the design just cannot keep up with the other boats in straight-line speed, do you think there is something wrong with Dalts blaming the designer for that?

If so, why?

And would it be better to keep it a secret?


First, the boat is at least as fast as the JK boats in particular conditions/points of sail, and a bit slower in others. It is not clear that the designer is totally to blame for optimizing to conditions other than those seen so far. How did they do the course-based optimization during the design selection phase? Did Dalts sign off on the assumptions for that weather model?

Second, it appears that the designer didn't do the structures. Given the relatively trivial differences in speed across these fleet, it is quite possible that the differences are due to structure weight (e.g., different CG) between the JK designs and Camper. The difference in speeds are very small. Saying that very small difference is due to the designer -- not the engineer/builder/sailmakers/sailors/navigation -- seems almost impossible to prove. They clearly made a few navigation errors that cost them some places even if the boat had been the equal of JK designs.

Is it a coincidence that Dalts has financial ties and/or a long history with the engineers/builders/sailmakers/sailors and he decided that those should be held blameless?

#37 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:34 PM

Dalts has long ties to Botin, too. I just doubt he'd be blaming the designer if he didn't have quantifiable reasons to do so. I also am pretty sure that none of us have access to the kind of data that the teams have to make such claims.

#38 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,485 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:36 PM

Question: If all their analysis of all the numbers makes it clear to the team that the design just cannot keep up with the other boats in straight-line speed, do you think there is something wrong with Dalts blaming the designer for that?

If so, why?

And would it be better to keep it a secret?


Clean,

not really going to answer your question directly. But, roll back the clock. Puma came in 2nd last race. One of the things they then did, was to eliminate some of the variables that existed between themselves and first place. Not all, but notably the design team, including JuanK, CHE, perhaps also structural engineering (not sure if Avaldi). They are basically following the idea that all things being equal, KR thinks he and his team can outsail <insert other guy> on an ocean course. (For the time being we will ignore the spar maker choice, and the loss of Andrew Cape).

ETNZ did not follow this choice. They kept, wait for it, Puma's designer, and the designer of their AC boats right on top of their first VO70 design. It was clear at that point that Botin had already one generation less experience with the VO70. They were not prepared to face the competition solely on a sailing basis, oddly. They accepted that this is in part a technology battle and they wanted a faster boat (and a stronger boat). They may have it at some points of sail, but it seems not reaching.

What was your question? Blame.

#39 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:43 PM

Totally agree with your implicit point, and it's actually something I asked Dalton a few minutes ago - namely, why in the name of baby jesus would he pick a Botin design in a race owned by JuanK designs since 2005? Seems a bad decision, one that ultimately was Daltons'. None of that makes criticizing the design invalid, and as has been said above, the criticism is exactly reversed if you are talking the last couple MedCup years (Botin = good, JuanK = slug).

#40 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,729 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:44 PM


No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.

he's not, he's been quite open in the fact that he hasnt been to impressed with some of the calls on board the boat. He even sent davis and joey up to sanya to try and sort it out.
he's just pointing out that Botin promised him an all round boat. its not a all round boat, The jaun K's are an all round boat.


You have a point. But in the interview he seems to have changed his tune laying the whole performance problem on the design. My feeling is that in a game of high stakes poker it's not a bad idea to assume that a bit of bluff and head games will enter into the conversation. Here, I think D is exaggerating a bit of Truth to influence the state of play. Yes, Camper is slower on a power reach than Tele or G4 but that just isn't the reason that are behind Tele in the standings. On the "all round boat" (isn't that a coracle?) the boat seems competitive all around. The last leg had more reaching in it than I suspect the designers had in their models and Camper still managed to be competitive enough that their navigational calls were more significant than their speed. Anyway, what is an all around boat? Does D really expect the design to be no slower on any point of sail but faster on some than the other designs? That seems like an unrealistic ask if the competing designers are competent. If he wanted a design that was very similar to the competitors maybe he should have used the same firm? Not that I want to over-state the case. D may be genuinely and even justifiably unhappy with Camper. But despite his bluster I think evidence suggests that design is good enough to win if they sail better than the competition.

#41 L Z

L Z

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,248 posts
  • Location:Member #50 - Detroit, MI

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:54 PM

How gentlemanly of him to raise his concerns in a media interview rather than personally, good example of effective communication, cooperation, and teambuilding. "watch out for the wheels under the bus!"


I don't approve it either but how is that any different than how this place handles most of the grief they have? Dalton (incorrectly so) took a page from SA manners?

#42 Bill Roue

Bill Roue

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:59 PM




They could probably beat these guys in a Mac26X if they needed to.
They are that good.
:rolleyes:

They are so good that two thirds of their team from the past twenty years now sail on other campaigns! Or have I got it all wrong?

Koukel


They are so good God asks them for advice.



Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:


Put the crack pipe down. Puma smoked Camper off the line you f'n cheerleader muppet.

They were in Puma's dirt an were forced to tack to the right. Puma chose to cover the fleet and not one horse race track it to the right immediately.

That said - Great job Camper.

#43 STYACHT

STYACHT

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,485 posts
  • Location:Amsterdam

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:00 PM

Totally agree with your implicit point, and it's actually something I asked Dalton a few minutes ago - namely, why in the name of baby jesus would he pick a Botin design in a race owned by JuanK designs since 2005? Seems a bad decision, one that ultimately was Daltons'. None of that makes criticizing the design invalid, and as has been said above, the criticism is exactly reversed if you are talking the last couple MedCup years (Botin = good, JuanK = slug).

Not trying to get semantic here. Criticizing the design is totally valid, as is blame, in fact. Dalts can and does say what he wants to say. But blame is what we have in play on this thread. If anybody thinks that Botin or anyone other than the crew are to justifiably be blamed for the leg 1 debacle, they are nuts. Dalts had better not be blaming MB for following first Groupama and then the whole fleet. (Aside, I doubt he is, but the brain trust cannot be replaced, and blasting them will have a huge negative impact right now.)

Carrying on, IMHO, Camper should have also been as quick to abandon the "just keep trying to punch through this trough" concept on leg 2 as Groupama or Sanya. They likely failed to take chances because of leg 1. The Mallaca Straights on leg 3 is just a crap shoot, one that reaching boat speed is not going to change. Was leg 4 a straight line speed test? Maybe so, but I don't think that Camper faired too badly in the western group.

So he can criticize the design based on data, sure, but some here have a problem with blaming the design for the poor performance.

I have a question, what racing did ETNZ do with this boat before the start?

#44 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:08 PM





They could probably beat these guys in a Mac26X if they needed to.
They are that good.
:rolleyes:

They are so good that two thirds of their team from the past twenty years now sail on other campaigns! Or have I got it all wrong?

Koukel


They are so good God asks them for advice.



Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:


Put the crack pipe down. Puma smoked Camper off the line you f'n cheerleader muppet.

They were in Puma's dirg an were forced to tack to the right. Puma chose to cover the fleet and not one horse race track it to the right immediately.



Obviously, you little cunt. I was kidding. Is that over your head, you ignorant shitstain? My point was, Puma kicked their ass on the start and Camper *still* blew right past them. One more bit of evidence that the TNZ boat is fine.

(... and did I mention? ... you are a cunt.)

#45 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:13 PM

How gentlemanly of him to raise his concerns in a media interview rather than personally, good example of effective communication, cooperation, and teambuilding. "watch out for the wheels under the bus!"


I don't approve it either but how is that any different than how this place handles most of the grief they have? Dalton (incorrectly so) took a page from SA manners?


You clearly belong to the 'if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything' school that your parents and teachers taught when you were a wee nipper. That works well for church and children's schools, but it rarely works well in real life. When you keep a lid on things, the pressure builds, eventually making the top blow a lot higher than it would with no lid. It also functions very well when the rich are paying all the bills, because they mostly don't want all the complications that transparency brings.

Scot founded SA on the 'everything should be out in the open' school, and we try to maintain that mission as much as we can within the bounds of what the lawyers tell us is OK. The concept of 'manners' only works if you are in a homogenous cultural group - something that doesn't apply to a website with readers in 150 countries.

Then you have Dalton's school, which is "try to be as open as you can, but if you're going to say something controversial in public, have a good reason for it." He certainly didn't learn that from us, if that's what you're implying.

#46 Bill Roue

Bill Roue

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:16 PM

There's a reason sarcasm is the lowest form of humour. What's worse is you don't even do it well.

What part of Puma covered the fleet to the left is too much for your fucking pea brain to understand? Puma can't cover the fleet and protect Camper as well who was a ladder rung down/behind and spat out to the right.

As in - Camper didn't blow by anyone. They were forced to separate and the then leader, who spat them out, did the percentage thing and covered the fleet.

And no, Camper wouldn't have won the race had they not been spat out right off the line. And Camper would have done th same thing as Puma did had the positions been reversed and Puma would have won the race.

So yes, Camper won because they fucked up. It happens. All the time. But you need to be ALLOWED to get leverage to the right.

#47 Bill Roue

Bill Roue

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:22 PM



No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.

he's not, he's been quite open in the fact that he hasnt been to impressed with some of the calls on board the boat. He even sent davis and joey up to sanya to try and sort it out.
he's just pointing out that Botin promised him an all round boat. its not a all round boat, The jaun K's are an all round boat.


You have a point. But in the interview he seems to have changed his tune laying the whole performance problem on the design. My feeling is that in a game of high stakes poker it's not a bad idea to assume that a bit of bluff and head games will enter into the conversation. Here, I think D is exaggerating a bit of Truth to influence the state of play. Yes, Camper is slower on a power reach than Tele or G4 but that just isn't the reason that are behind Tele in the standings. On the "all round boat" (isn't that a coracle?) the boat seems competitive all around. The last leg had more reaching in it than I suspect the designers had in their models and Camper still managed to be competitive enough that their navigational calls were more significant than their speed. Anyway, what is an all around boat? Does D really expect the design to be no slower on any point of sail but faster on some than the other designs? That seems like an unrealistic ask if the competing designers are competent. If he wanted a design that was very similar to the competitors maybe he should have used the same firm? Not that I want to over-state the case. D may be genuinely and even justifiably unhappy with Camper. But despite his bluster I think evidence suggests that design is good enough to win if they sail better than the competition.

Excellent use of Coracle. I hope you start up your blog again soon. It was the best one going.

#48 lead

lead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:28 PM

Obviously, you little cunt. I was kidding. Is that over your head, you ignorant shitstain? My point was, Puma kicked their ass on the start and Camper *still* blew right past them. One more bit of evidence that the TNZ boat is fine.

(... and did I mention? ... you are a cunt.)
[/quote]
they never said it was slower up wind or down you dumb j24 shitbox sailing little cunt. the in port race was a windward leeward course, what part of that dont you understand. They past puma because they got the shift first and tacked back into the shore out of the tide and puma kept going into 4 knots of incoming tide. How the fuck is that evidence that tele and groupama are not faster on a reach which is what they are stating, since there was no reaching in that race. And your've got the cheek to call someone else an ignorant shitstain "fuck me drunk what a twat"

#49 lead

lead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:35 PM

fair enough, thanks for the reply



No problem with criticizing the design. But, IMO, they went from 1st to 4th in the last "reaching" leg because they 1) went the wrong way costing them two boats and 2) broke a sail which cost them more than the diff with the third boat that beat them. They have yet to finish a leg where they sailed best and lost out only because of the design faults. So, blaming all their problems on an un-competitively slow design seems less than the full story.

he's not, he's been quite open in the fact that he hasnt been to impressed with some of the calls on board the boat. He even sent davis and joey up to sanya to try and sort it out.
he's just pointing out that Botin promised him an all round boat. its not a all round boat, The jaun K's are an all round boat.


You have a point. But in the interview he seems to have changed his tune laying the whole performance problem on the design. My feeling is that in a game of high stakes poker it's not a bad idea to assume that a bit of bluff and head games will enter into the conversation. Here, I think D is exaggerating a bit of Truth to influence the state of play. Yes, Camper is slower on a power reach than Tele or G4 but that just isn't the reason that are behind Tele in the standings. On the "all round boat" (isn't that a coracle?) the boat seems competitive all around. The last leg had more reaching in it than I suspect the designers had in their models and Camper still managed to be competitive enough that their navigational calls were more significant than their speed. Anyway, what is an all around boat? Does D really expect the design to be no slower on any point of sail but faster on some than the other designs? That seems like an unrealistic ask if the competing designers are competent. If he wanted a design that was very similar to the competitors maybe he should have used the same firm? Not that I want to over-state the case. D may be genuinely and even justifiably unhappy with Camper. But despite his bluster I think evidence suggests that design is good enough to win if they sail better than the competition.



#50 L Z

L Z

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,248 posts
  • Location:Member #50 - Detroit, MI

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:39 PM


How gentlemanly of him to raise his concerns in a media interview rather than personally, good example of effective communication, cooperation, and teambuilding. "watch out for the wheels under the bus!"


I don't approve it either but how is that any different than how this place handles most of the grief they have? Dalton (incorrectly so) took a page from SA manners?


You clearly belong to the 'if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything' school that your parents and teachers taught when you were a wee nipper.


Not really. I just believe in keeping my dirty laundry behind the doors and deal with the issue directly with the people that are involved in the issue.

Airing it in public, doesn't help any matter, doesn't professionally resolve any issue and doesn't do you any good. But does gets you burned faster than a rocket.

#51 rule69

rule69

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,729 posts

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:41 PM

I hope you start up your blog again soon. It was the best one going.


That was a good blog. But I didn't have anything at all to do with it. I wasn't aware the blog when I picked my screen name here and I've been too lazy to change. Sorry for causing any confusion.

#52 lead

lead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 18 March 2012 - 10:46 PM


Totally agree with your implicit point, and it's actually something I asked Dalton a few minutes ago - namely, why in the name of baby jesus would he pick a Botin design in a race owned by JuanK designs since 2005? Seems a bad decision, one that ultimately was Daltons'. None of that makes criticizing the design invalid, and as has been said above, the criticism is exactly reversed if you are talking the last couple MedCup years (Botin = good, JuanK = slug).

Not trying to get semantic here. Criticizing the design is totally valid, as is blame, in fact. Dalts can and does say what he wants to say. But blame is what we have in play on this thread. If anybody thinks that Botin or anyone other than the crew are to justifiably be blamed for the leg 1 debacle, they are nuts. Dalts had better not be blaming MB for following first Groupama and then the whole fleet. (Aside, I doubt he is, but the brain trust cannot be replaced, and blasting them will have a huge negative impact right now.)

Carrying on, IMHO, Camper should have also been as quick to abandon the "just keep trying to punch through this trough" concept on leg 2 as Groupama or Sanya. They likely failed to take chances because of leg 1. The Mallaca Straights on leg 3 is just a crap shoot, one that reaching boat speed is not going to change. Was leg 4 a straight line speed test? Maybe so, but I don't think that Camper faired too badly in the western group.

So he can criticize the design based on data, sure, but some here have a problem with blaming the design for the poor performance.

I have a question, what racing did ETNZ do with this boat before the start?

the auckland to fiji race, but they had no one to play with except the vodaphone tri,

#53 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 18 March 2012 - 11:39 PM

they never said it was slower up wind or down you dumb j24 shitbox sailing little cunt. the in port race was a windward leeward course, what part of that dont you understand. They past puma because they got the shift first and tacked back into the shore out of the tide and puma kept going into 4 knots of incoming tide. How the fuck is that evidence that tele and groupama are not faster on a reach which is what they are stating, since there was no reaching in that race. And your've got the cheek to call someone else an ignorant shitstain "fuck me drunk what a twat"



Dude. Do you Kiwis have anger-management issues? I am just saying that Camper did fine in the W/L race despite the team's so-so sailing. You are correct that by no means does this disprove the theory that the boat may be a little laggardly on certain reaches. But we haven't exactly seen razor-sharp navigating from your boys so it just MIGHT have something to do with that. I can't remember the TWD in the day or two before coming to landfall in NZ last leg, but Jesus Christ, Camper was blowing every other boat right off the water.

But that brings up the other question raised in this thread: okay, so the designer created a boat that is blistering fast upwind, perhaps a little off on beam reaches, about equal to the JuanK boats off the wind (based on what little we've seen). You can't have everything. Presumably the client said, dude, please design us a boat for x% beating, y% reaching, z% downwind, etc. It's not his fault if the client is daft. And you don't see the JuanK guys whimpering like little girls that "Camper is faster on the wind ... waaaah ... our designer is most certainly an alcoholic inept uncaring embarrassing slob who has fucked us over, but good." Too much time in those silly red outfits with that gay paint job ... the ETNZ guys just don't get laid enough or something.

(You are absolutely right that a J24 is a shitbox. Greatest, shittiest, most immortal little shitbox ever, but it is one just the same.)

#54 geppeto

geppeto

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Location:Spain, New Zealand and whereever we end up.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:23 AM

Heard around the race village in Auckland. New name for Camper. 'Clifford'

#55 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:40 AM

that is fucking HILARIOUS. Front page! Can anyone photoshop Dalton or Nico into this?

Attached Files



#56 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:41 AM



[SNIP]


Yeah the boat was dog slow in the Auckland in-port race. It was amazing how through sheer cunning and sailing ability, plus a perfect start that left, e.g., Puma in the dust, they somehow prevailed. That boat completely sucks. Literally, it's like a JuanK boat dragging a sea anchor.
Thankfully, however, those guys piss excellence. It's great to see them bring a knife to a gunfight and still dig down and find a way to win it -- after all, that's what the very best sportsmen can do. :blink:


Put the crack pipe down. Puma smoked Camper off the line you f'n cheerleader muppet.

They were in Puma's dirg an were forced to tack to the right. Puma chose to cover the fleet and not one horse race track it to the right immediately.



Obviously, you little cunt. I was kidding. Is that over your head, you ignorant shitstain? My point was, Puma kicked their ass on the start and Camper *still* blew right past them. One more bit of evidence that the TNZ boat is fine.

(... and did I mention? ... you are a cunt.)


Really, Puma had a better start than Camper in the In-Port race!? it's like watching a bunch of retards trying to hump a doorknob...

Attached Files



#57 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 01:54 AM

There's a reason sarcasm is the lowest form of humour. What's worse is you don't even do it well.

What part of Puma covered the fleet to the left is too much for your fucking pea brain to understand? Puma can't cover the fleet and protect Camper as well who was a ladder rung down/behind and spat out to the right.

As in - Camper didn't blow by anyone. They were forced to separate and the then leader, who spat them out, did the percentage thing and covered the fleet.


Wrong.

And no, Camper wouldn't have won the race had they not been spat out right off the line. And Camper would have done th same thing as Puma did had the positions been reversed and Puma would have won the race.

Wrong again.

So yes, Camper won because they fucked up. It happens. All the time. But you need to be ALLOWED to get leverage to the right.


And the trifecta, wrong for the third time.

Epic fail, mate.

#58 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:32 AM

They certainly were nowhere near the line at the start. Puma hit it about .5 seconds after the gun. Camper were maybe 5-10 seconds back, but at least from the interview afterwards, they were at the spot they wanted to be, just late..

#59 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:34 AM

hee hee

Attached Files



#60 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 19 March 2012 - 02:35 AM

Really, Puma had a better start than Camper in the In-Port race!? it's like watching a bunch of retards trying to hump a doorknob...



Eh? Were we watching the same race? The in-port one in Auckland New Zealand? Puma absolutely nailed the start -- full speed, perfect timing, perfect positioning. As good as is possible. Camper certainly didn't have a front row seat at the start. They came back, obviously, but their achievements on the start line did not contribute to their victory. Take a look again at the vid; the start's at 15:00:

Auckland In-Port Race

... anyhow, the only reason I brought it up in the first place is, it's one more argument in support of the Camper boat not exactly being a slothful, barnacle-ridden leadmine, contrary to some of the whiny contentions being set forth here. (No, no, I understand ... by no means have I proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have a non-horrible boat. But if you can't get good starts, and you can't navigate, and the boat still does okay, what business have you griping about the thing? ... the boat's hardly the first-order problem.)

#61 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:29 AM

Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous

#62 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:35 AM


Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


Had Puma tacked at the start, they'd have run away with it.

Attached Files



#63 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:36 AM

I think this race is similar to the AC in that essentially unknown quantities show up on the start line, teams only get a chance to work up their boats as they race around the world. Interesting the way Sanya seemed to show a good turn of speed in the W/L, I thought was also the Farr's strong suit last time around? Botin et al. seem to have designed a boat with a bit more height (as previously noted) certainly more knuckle in (also noted) than JKs. I thought that the inport race start showed the importance, when wanting to guard the right, of having great point and beingnthe weather most even at the expense of crossing a BL late. Puma put the peddle down on time but almost inevitably footed a bit, allowing (as also noted) Camper to block her out until she got t he line for her tack. Good display by the team of fleet control, the kind of thing that is second nature, perhaps, when one has been a multiple world champion in highly competitive dinghy fleets since one was a teenager.

#64 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:39 AM


Really, Puma had a better start than Camper in the In-Port race!? it's like watching a bunch of retards trying to hump a doorknob...



Eh? Were we watching the same race? The in-port one in Auckland New Zealand? Puma absolutely nailed the start -- full speed, perfect timing, perfect positioning. As good as is possible. Camper certainly didn't have a front row seat at the start. They came back, obviously, but their achievements on the start line did not contribute to their victory. Take a look again at the vid; the start's at 15:00:

Auckland In-Port Race

... anyhow, the only reason I brought it up in the first place is, it's one more argument in support of the Camper boat not exactly being a slothful, barnacle-ridden leadmine, contrary to some of the whiny contentions being set forth here. (No, no, I understand ... by no means have I proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have a non-horrible boat. But if you can't get good starts, and you can't navigate, and the boat still does okay, what business have you griping about the thing? ... the boat's hardly the first-order problem.)


Very common mistake: The situation/position at the time of the the gun matters much less than 1-2 minutes into the race. Puma looked good but Camper had a much better start - they were a tiny bit later than they wanted, but were the windward boat with enough speed to control the entire fleet. Everybody wanted to tack to get into the wall, but nobody could... They basically wont eh first beat right then and there.

#65 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:45 AM



Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


:lol: :lol: 1st across the line doesn't always get you 1st Alan...unfortunately BT is doing too much in explaining what actually happened. (dammit!!) That you can't figure it out isn't too surprising but it's fun listening to all this.

Camper knew exactly what they were doing and stayed on stbd just long enough for speed build. They then owned the right and the rest was history. If they had lead Puma....they could have forced Puma to the correct place while locking themselves out. walk softly carry a big stick moment. local knowlege

carry on

edit: I see you edited your post. quick thinking that. Puma didn't want the wall....so they fucked up

#66 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:47 AM



Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


Exactly:
  • Camper: Glamor - all objectives achieved (windward position, able to tack and head to the wall whenever they want, control the fleet), maybe a touch late.
  • Puma: Looked good initially to the uninformed eye, but not being able to tack means that they are fucked.
  • Everybody else: Really fucked.


#67 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:53 AM




Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


:lol: :lol: 1st across the line doesn't always get you 1st Alan...unfortunately BT is doing too much in explaining what actually happened. That you can't figure it out isn't too surprising but it's fun listening to all this.

Camper knew exactly what they were doing and stayed on stbd just long enough for speed build. They then owned the right and the rest was history. If they had lead Puma....they could have forced Puma to the correct place while locking themselves out. walk softly carry a big stick moment. local knowlege

carry on


My bad then. Seemed to me that Puma were moving faster than Camper the whole time, and had more than enough power to squeeze up and tack 'round the bow of the committee boat without fouling Camper. They waited, but more importantly they footed, and as soon as Camper got into the wall Kenny's chance was gone.

#68 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:55 AM





Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


:lol: :lol: 1st across the line doesn't always get you 1st Alan...unfortunately BT is doing too much in explaining what actually happened. That you can't figure it out isn't too surprising but it's fun listening to all this.

Camper knew exactly what they were doing and stayed on stbd just long enough for speed build. They then owned the right and the rest was history. If they had lead Puma....they could have forced Puma to the correct place while locking themselves out. walk softly carry a big stick moment. local knowlege

carry on


My bad then. Seemed to me that Puma were moving faster than Camper the whole time, and had more than enough power to squeeze up and tack 'round the bow of the committee boat without fouling Camper. They waited, but more importantly they footed, and as soon as Camper got into the wall Kenny's chance was gone.


they were going quickly...in a knot of extra tide...ded

Pumas moment was tacking when Camper did....didn't happen...eyes on another prize. Strategic mistake. Big one.

#69 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:55 AM

Very common mistake: The situation/position at the time of the the gun matters much less than 1-2 minutes into the race.



Holy condescending tone, Batman. Assuming that we, the great unwashed -- the vulgar groundlings of SA -- are worthy of commenting in light of your sagacity and wisdom:

I just cleaned my glasses and looked at it again. Puma is a few feet away from the corner of the committee boat. There was nowhere more windward to go. How in tarnation does Camper have a better start than them? Puma's hosing Camper with gas -- a textbook, perfect start. Mister Ken have big skill, long in future of sailing races... knawhamsayin'?

Should Puma have let Camper tack away? ... absolutely not, but that's a whole separate issue. Dude ... er, My Liege: you can't seriously contend that ETNZ got a better start than Puma in that race. You will lose a lot of sailboat races if you follow suit. Sure, Clifford sailed a better weather leg than Puma ... ain't no denyin'.

#70 Scarecrow

Scarecrow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,694 posts
  • Location:Melbourne, Aus

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:57 AM

I think I'm seeing the problem now.

Attached Files



#71 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 03:58 AM

Holy condescending tone, Batman. Assuming that we, the great unwashed -- the vulgar groundlings of SA -- are worthy of commenting in light of your sagacity and wisdom:


listen to yourself sunshine...ya haven't a clue what happened and are wanting to see stuff that isn't there. How's anyone supposed to sound next to delusions like that?

#72 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:01 AM


Holy condescending tone, Batman. Assuming that we, the great unwashed -- the vulgar groundlings of SA -- are worthy of commenting in light of your sagacity and wisdom:


listen to yourself sunshine...ya haven't a clue what happened and are wanting to see stuff that isn't there. How's anyone supposed to sound next to delusions like that?



Sunshine: I am going to the optician tomorrow, then, because I am not seeing how Puma could have gotten a better start. I mean, they are 2-3 boatlengths directly in front of Clifford when the horn goes off. Not so?

#73 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:04 AM



Holy condescending tone, Batman. Assuming that we, the great unwashed -- the vulgar groundlings of SA -- are worthy of commenting in light of your sagacity and wisdom:


listen to yourself sunshine...ya haven't a clue what happened and are wanting to see stuff that isn't there. How's anyone supposed to sound next to delusions like that?



Sunshine: I am going to the optician tomorrow, then, because I am not seeing how Puma could have gotten a better start. I mean, they are 3-4 boatlengths directly in front of Clifford when the horn goes off. Not so?


Right where camper wanted them...that's the part yer struggling with matey. Bit of Kiwi cunning that....they knew how long it took to get to the line. They also knew that pinching hard would quickly get them up off Pumas hip enough for speed build. They also knew the wall was favoured with both tide and shift.

C'est la vie...you are only seeing a very small part of the whole picture and who knows....might have to race you one day. B)

#74 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:04 AM

Pumas moment was tacking when Camper did....didn't happen...eyes on another prize. Strategic mistake. Big one.



+1. KR doesn't usually miss those sorts of tricks, but whoopsed this time.

#75 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:09 AM





Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


:lol: :lol: 1st across the line doesn't always get you 1st Alan...unfortunately BT is doing too much in explaining what actually happened. That you can't figure it out isn't too surprising but it's fun listening to all this.

Camper knew exactly what they were doing and stayed on stbd just long enough for speed build. They then owned the right and the rest was history. If they had lead Puma....they could have forced Puma to the correct place while locking themselves out. walk softly carry a big stick moment. local knowlege

carry on


My bad then. Seemed to me that Puma were moving faster than Camper the whole time, and had more than enough power to squeeze up and tack 'round the bow of the committee boat without fouling Camper. They waited, but more importantly they footed, and as soon as Camper got into the wall Kenny's chance was gone.


Yes, they might have been able to tack right after the start - but that is not the place to do it. You have to pick your spot, with the objective being to maximize the advantage over the other boats - i.e., force the fleet left into the tide, then tack to stay out of it yourself for as much as possible (while limiting the number of tacks).
That is the plan for the beat and, in turn, dictates the plan for the start - bow out, speed at the gun, etc. are all nice-to-haves, but the must-have is to be able to tack for the wall exactly when you want (and prevent others from doing the same).

#76 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:11 AM

I think I'm seeing the problem now.


Just spit hot tea all over my fucking screen.

#77 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:15 AM





yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


:lol: :lol: 1st across the line doesn't always get you 1st Alan...unfortunately BT is doing too much in explaining what actually happened. That you can't figure it out isn't too surprising but it's fun listening to all this.

Camper knew exactly what they were doing and stayed on stbd just long enough for speed build. They then owned the right and the rest was history. If they had lead Puma....they could have forced Puma to the correct place while locking themselves out. walk softly carry a big stick moment. local knowlege

carry on


My bad then. Seemed to me that Puma were moving faster than Camper the whole time, and had more than enough power to squeeze up and tack 'round the bow of the committee boat without fouling Camper. They waited, but more importantly they footed, and as soon as Camper got into the wall Kenny's chance was gone.


Yes, they might have been able to tack right after the start - but that is not the place to do it. You have to pick your spot, with the objective being to maximize the advantage over the other boats - i.e., force the fleet left into the tide, then tack to stay out of it yourself for as much as possible (while limiting the number of tacks).
That is the plan for the beat and, in turn, dictates the plan for the start - bow out, speed at the gun, etc. are all nice-to-haves, but the must-have is to be able to tack for the wall exactly when you want (and prevent others from doing the same).



Actually, my lithium may be wearing off because your explanation makes good sense. It didn't take more than a few seconds of pinching until they were Puma's daddy.

#78 Ncik

Ncik

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 724 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:16 AM

very difficult to prove if a design is faulty.

while creating a bit of a media storm in the sailing world, most sailors will realise that it takes more than a design to win a race.

something others haven't mentioned yet is that if this was a true round the world race, there'd only be 2 boats left, telefonica and tnz.

#79 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,669 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:16 AM

Yes, they might have been able to tack right after the start - but that is not the place to do it. You have to pick your spot, with the objective being to maximize the advantage over the other boats - i.e., force the fleet left into the tide, then tack to stay out of it yourself for as much as possible (while limiting the number of tacks).
That is the plan for the beat and, in turn, dictates the plan for the start - bow out, speed at the gun, etc. are all nice-to-haves, but the must-have is to be able to tack for the wall exactly when you want (and prevent others from doing the same).


Thanks for pointing it out with such a good and clear explanation without snark or condescension. Something rarely seen these days...

Given the local knowledge and typical strategic prep aboard Puma, makes even less sense for them not to have sailed high mode at the start and been exactly where Camper was up the beat, 'cause they would've been there 8 seconds earlier. Why do you think they got suckered into sailing lower, and holding the middle even with the big tide running and Camper going so early?

#80 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:19 AM


Very common mistake: The situation/position at the time of the the gun matters much less than 1-2 minutes into the race.



Holy condescending tone, Batman. Assuming that we, the great unwashed -- the vulgar groundlings of SA -- are worthy of commenting in light of your sagacity and wisdom:

I just cleaned my glasses and looked at it again. Puma is a few feet away from the corner of the committee boat. There was nowhere more windward to go. How in tarnation does Camper have a better start than them? Puma's hosing Camper with gas -- a textbook, perfect start. Mister Ken have big skill, long in future of sailing races... knawhamsayin'?

Should Puma have let Camper tack away? ... absolutely not, but that's a whole separate issue. Dude ... er, My Liege: you can't seriously contend that ETNZ got a better start than Puma in that race. You will lose a lot of sailboat races if you follow suit. Sure, Clifford sailed a better weather leg than Puma ... ain't no denyin'.


What do you prefer me to do: Sing you a soothing lullaby so that you can dream on - or tell you how it is (even if the truth hurts)?

#81 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:20 AM

I think I'm seeing the problem now.


Love it!

#82 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:33 AM

Why do you think they got suckered into sailing lower, and holding the middle even with the big tide running and Camper going so early?


it could be as simple as they didn't know....they didn't necessarily sail lower...they did reach the tide first so down they go relative to a boat in less current.

If they were given a second go at it things would look different for sure....but there wasn't a second chance

#83 Scarecrow

Scarecrow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,694 posts
  • Location:Melbourne, Aus

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:38 AM

To me the whole thing smacks of smoke and mirrors. Dalton is running around in circles trying to play at the highest level on two stages and can't be fucked giving the Volvo the time it needs to bring them back to the front of the fleet. If you go public saying the boat is a dog and we're doing the best possible given the situation it relieves the pressure from your financial backers to be looking at the crew and maybe even stepping in yourself to fix the problems.

#84 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:52 AM

If you go public saying the boat is a dog and we're doing the best possible given the situation it relieves the pressure from your financial backers to be looking at the crew and maybe even stepping in yourself to fix the problems.


If that isn't it then it's bloody close to it. Keeps the NZ taxpayers happy also while taking pressure off the crew and it's probably nothing that can't be fixed up with Botin if need be.

#85 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:11 AM

To me the whole thing smacks of smoke and mirrors. Dalton is running around in circles trying to play at the highest level on two stages and can't be fucked giving the Volvo the time it needs to bring them back to the front of the fleet. If you go public saying the boat is a dog and we're doing the best possible given the situation it relieves the pressure from your financial backers to be looking at the crew and maybe even stepping in yourself to fix the problems.



Seems like a plausible explanation, as good as any.

One problem with Dalton's assertions, though, is ... the boat's not slow! ETNZ is doing well in the race; they are in third by the slimmest of margins. They frikking won in front of the home crowd. Yes, sure, mmmhmm, that W/L course did not expose their Achilles heel of beam reaches or whatever.

I mean Dalton's statement would make sense if he was running the Sanya team. They really ARE doing the best possible given their boat, which is slower than the others beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I guess it's as simple as, if you recite nonsensical statements loudly and continuously, folks start to believe them.

#86 Evo

Evo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,961 posts
  • Location:a park by the sea

Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:19 AM

I guess it's as simple as, if you recite nonsensical statements loudly and continuously, folks start to believe them.


kinda like how Puma won the start?

#87 J24_guy

J24_guy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 208 posts
  • Location:Marion, MA

Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:24 AM


I guess it's as simple as, if you recite nonsensical statements loudly and continuously, folks start to believe them.


kinda like how Puma won the start?



Dude, touché. It's all good.



#88 Ballast Technician

Ballast Technician

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:28 AM


Yes, they might have been able to tack right after the start - but that is not the place to do it. You have to pick your spot, with the objective being to maximize the advantage over the other boats - i.e., force the fleet left into the tide, then tack to stay out of it yourself for as much as possible (while limiting the number of tacks).
That is the plan for the beat and, in turn, dictates the plan for the start - bow out, speed at the gun, etc. are all nice-to-haves, but the must-have is to be able to tack for the wall exactly when you want (and prevent others from doing the same).


Thanks for pointing it out with such a good and clear explanation without snark or condescension. Something rarely seen these days...

Given the local knowledge and typical strategic prep aboard Puma, makes even less sense for them not to have sailed high mode at the start and been exactly where Camper was up the beat, 'cause they would've been there 8 seconds earlier. Why do you think they got suckered into sailing lower, and holding the middle even with the big tide running and Camper going so early?


FWIW, When we were watching the start, the key comments were something like this:
  • 1.00-0.30:
    • Everybody other than Camper and Puma is long out of it and going with Plan B - bow out/max speed toward the middle of the line and hope for room above to tack (and duck) sooner rather than later.
    • Camper slightly late because they were held up by Sanya.
    • Puma looking good but, possibly a touch early.
  • 0.10:
    • Camper has a really good speed build - still a bit late, but closing on Puma and still far enough back so that Puma cannot lock them out without massively sacrificing speed.
    • Puma still looking pretty good, but still slightly early. Also, crucially, at this point Puma cannot control both Camper and the rest of the fleet.
  • Gun:
    • Puma hits the line, but is slower than Camper and is already 1/4 boat length below the committee boat/Camper's lane.
After the gun Puma's choice then basically was:
  • Work high in order to keep in front of Camper but surrender control of the fleet (and possibly live with a little less boat speed); or
  • Foot a bit and, in the process, completely yield the windward lane to Camper, but hope that they are far enough ahead/gain enough speed to still cross ahead. This options also limits separation with/keeps tighter control of the rest of the fleet.
Maybe they underestimated Camper's speed/pointing and/or the benefit of the tidal relieve. Either way judgment call, probably a close one. In hindsight they might do it differently - pretty sure they would not tack as late as they did...

#89 coxcreek

coxcreek

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 833 posts
  • Location:Auckland, New Zealand

Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:54 AM

Camper was 8-10 seconds late but were clear and above Puma's exhaust flatulence; perfect, they knew they had to go right as soon as possible (out of tide) and they did, race was over 30 seconds after the gun. Let me repeat, Camper is easily the best to windward ... and they're reaching okay at this moment too. I know evolution is a dirty word amongst the US righties ... but it does occur.

#90 paulg

paulg

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 10 posts
  • Location:Auckland , NZ

Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:22 AM

Not sure what why everyone is getting so worked up with Dalts statement....Camper has definitely been lacking a few times and given time on reaches ...its no secret and been clear to see....it has been well sailed (still made mistakes and had issues ..ie J2 exploding) but it is a fact .....he was stating the obvious...

#91 Scarecrow

Scarecrow

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,694 posts
  • Location:Melbourne, Aus

Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:53 AM

Paul everyone is getting worked up beacuse he is talking like a bad leader. In these situations a good leader has two very different phrases.

1. I fucked up.
2. We did well.

The only reason to point fingers is to get someone to look in a direction they weren't already.

#92 paulg

paulg

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 10 posts
  • Location:Auckland , NZ

Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:19 AM

Scarecrow .....usually I would agree ..but think in this case it is being a bit hard on him....if you know Dalton ..he calls a spade a spade - yes he is disappointed that Camper hasnt been able to put themselves in a better overall position in this race - despite winning the Port race and being very consistent ..when it comes down to a straight line drag race on a reach - Camper is wanting .... look at the dashboard (on Volvo site) right now ...Telefonica is just under a knot faster .....the crew of Camper have acknowledged this and said they need to be in different breezes than the Juan boats on a reach to have a chance...the boat is well sailed ..sails are good...the fact is ..the designer got it wrong on that point of sail....

If you look at the Juan boats -their bow lifts while Camper tends to dig in and send spray...

Dalton isnt trying to make excuses -he will do whatever he can to get the boat performing but think he is frustrated they cant bridge the gap on that point of sail...

It is easy to be critical when people make excuses ....but he is stating fact... the Camper team will push the boat to the limit ..and given the right conditions and choices still have a real chance...but it against the odds...

#93 lead

lead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location:Auckland

Posted 19 March 2012 - 07:50 AM

from on the water puma werent that close to the boat as that photo makes out, camper were right on it. I dont think puma could of tacked at the start line from where i was camper looked well to windward from the get go. I really dont think they had the time to tack without giving away a penalty.



Epic fail, mate.


yep....but don't stop 'em...the entertainment is fabulous


Had Puma tacked at the start, they'd have run away with it.



#94 bruno

bruno

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,021 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:21 AM

Alan, good for you, we're all learning and that was a master class. I often think that the line, and the lane, is everything. Nico gave every one of his doubters a bit of a lesson, as Sanderson did the next day. Good for them, it is Auckland and they should have their day ( Lake McQuarie not the same). Some typos, o well.

#95 Forza

Forza

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 57 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:Sailing

Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:24 AM

I think Dalton is scouting for another designer, Kiwi style reasoning at work.

#96 Alysum

Alysum

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 280 posts
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:46 AM

Camper currently the quickest boat at 23.1knots in reaching conditions; did JuanK modify the boat in Aukland? Posted Image

#97 edelweis

edelweis

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 568 posts

Posted 19 March 2012 - 10:52 AM

Camper is wanting .... look at the dashboard (on Volvo site) right now ...Telefonica is just under a knot faster .....

To me dashboard / tracker show not enough evidence to blame the designer for lack of boatspeed compared to the 3 JK boats.

#98 Heriberto

Heriberto

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,061 posts
  • Location:Saint Paul, Minnesota
  • Interests:Mount Gay Sugarcane

Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:05 AM


Question: If all their analysis of all the numbers makes it clear to the team that the design just cannot keep up with the other boats in straight-line speed, do you think there is something wrong with Dalts blaming the designer for that?

If so, why?

And would it be better to keep it a secret?


First, the boat is at least as fast as the JK boats in particular conditions/points of sail, and a bit slower in others. It is not clear that the designer is totally to blame for optimizing to conditions other than those seen so far. How did they do the course-based optimization during the design selection phase? Did Dalts sign off on the assumptions for that weather model?

Second, it appears that the designer didn't do the structures. Given the relatively trivial differences in speed across these fleet, it is quite possible that the differences are due to structure weight (e.g., different CG) between the JK designs and Camper. The difference in speeds are very small. Saying that very small difference is due to the designer -- not the engineer/builder/sailmakers/sailors/navigation -- seems almost impossible to prove. They clearly made a few navigation errors that cost them some places even if the boat had been the equal of JK designs.

Is it a coincidence that Dalts has financial ties and/or a long history with the engineers/builders/sailmakers/sailors and he decided that those should be held blameless?


Ding.

The difference in speed potential between all four top boats is trivial. Maybe they really are slower than the other boats reaching, but maybe, just maybe mind you, the difference is in details that have nothing to do with the designers lines. Differences in the spar and rigging tune, foil build, sail design, on and on. Small details count when the speed differential is fractions of a tenth of a knot. There is only one boat that is a tenth of a knot slower on any point of sail, and that is Sanya. Or maybe, just maybe, the difference is in the sailing. Sounds crazy! I know! Insane! ETNZ aren't sailing as well as the other teams? Refuckingdiculous!

Regardless, I doubt the way Dalton treated BC has gone unnoticed, and throwing them under the bus, in the press, before even talking to them, is flat out poor leadership. Show me a team in any sport that successfully manages via press release. It isn't confidence building to know that your boss/client has no problem airing his dirty laundry in the newspaper. Without any warning. It sounds like desperation really, and while they are in third place and just 3 points back from second, it sounds really desperate. Obviously something else is going on. What possible reason would you have for doing that now? The race isn't over until July.

#99 the paradox of thrift

the paradox of thrift

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,376 posts
  • Location:Mos-Vegas
  • Interests:I like sailing

Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:05 AM

I like Grant Dalton. I'll defend the guy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if what was said may have been intended to be off the record, or at least it was said without anticipating the headline it attracted - the rugby reporter who wrote the piece doesn't normally write about the yachting. That said ...

... I reckon that if you've got the ability to simultaneously run a Medcup, Volvo and Americas Cup campaign you can say whatever the fuck you want. The guy has raised so much money and shown freaking amazing leadership to keep the team on the rails. Lesser leadership would have seen that team fail and there woud be no campaigns on the go. He has preserved and built on the legacy of previous TNZ efforts. He manages excellent relationships with sponsors and team personel. It's impressive.

Other than some notable French sailors, when it comes to the administration and management of sailing teams he has no peer in the sport. Spending billionaires money on vanity teams isn't the same thing. He has to be calculated and effective - and they have managed very well in trying circumstances.

If you watch the interviews with Grant Dalton he doesn't talk shit. He isn't effusive with praise and he just says what he thinks when he doesn't agree with someone. He's a voice of reason in the AC Cup and the Volvo race is better off to have people like Frostad and Dalton involved - people who understand the culture and legacy of the event.

As far as looking for excuses for performance, etc. - that's so fucking ridiculous. There's no gamesmanship or ego involved in what he said. It's just a fact and I reckon if you asked him, he still expects the team to win legs and stay competitive until the end. The Camper team have shown a lot of character and, while not winning the race overall, still reflect the professionalism and ethos of a team representing ETNZ.

The comment he made about having to do the race again is very revealing - suggesting that it would be unacceptable for the team to try once and never go back again. If they do go again and Auckland get another stopover that would be HUGE.

As for protecting the interests of sponsors etc. I would expect that all the sponsors of the Volvo teams this time around would be very happy with the event package, the venues and the race management. The teams seem to have done a good job of looking after the interests of their sponsors. Why would Telefonica have come back three times if it didn't work for them?

As for the knockers, good luck with your own national teams. That Australian VOR boat is awesome and that British AC team simply rocks (not).

#100 Clovis

Clovis

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 321 posts
  • Location:Ici

Posted 19 March 2012 - 11:19 AM

Camper currently the quickest boat at 23.1knots in reaching conditions; did JuanK modify the boat in Aukland? Posted Image

+1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users