232 replies to this topic

[Bill Roue]

There's a reason sarcasm is the lowest form of humour. What's worse is you don't even do it well.

What part of Puma covered the fleet to the left is too much for your fucking pea brain to understand? Puma can't cover the fleet and protect Camper as well who was a ladder rung down/behind and spat out to the right.

As in - Camper didn't blow by anyone. They were forced to separate and the then leader, who spat them out, did the percentage thing and covered the fleet.

Wrong.

And no, Camper wouldn't have won the race had they not been spat out right off the line. And Camper would have done th same thing as Puma did had the positions been reversed and Puma would have won the race.

Wrong again.

So yes, Camper won because they fucked up. It happens. All the time. But you need to be ALLOWED to get leverage to the right.

And the trifecta, wrong for the third time.

Epic fail, mate.

I love you fucking Kiwis. "You can't handle the truth!"

Haha. Good win anyway. I'm cheering for ETNZ but they had a shit start, we're in the pocket and were controlled.

Why don't you just admit they tacked to the right because the were getting gassed?

The lot of you are like us Canadians when it comes to hockey. Sometimes blind to the truth but fucking passionate always...

[Bill Roue]

Very common mistake: The situation/position at the time of the the gun matters much less than 1-2 minutes into the race.

Holy condescending tone, Batman. Assuming that we, the great unwashed -- the vulgar groundlings of SA -- are worthy of commenting in light of your sagacity and wisdom:

I just cleaned my glasses and looked at it again. Puma is a few feet away from the corner of the committee boat. There was nowhere more windward to go. How in tarnation does Camper have a better start than them? Puma's hosing Camper with gas -- a textbook, perfect start. Mister Ken have big skill, long in future of sailing races... knawhamsayin'?

Should Puma have let Camper tack away? ... absolutely not, but that's a whole separate issue. Dude ... er, My Liege: you can't seriously contend that ETNZ got a better start than Puma in that race. You will lose a lot of sailboat races if you follow suit. Sure, Clifford sailed a better weather leg than Puma ... ain't no denyin'.

They're Kiwis so of course they're gong to say Camper was controlling... From astern and in Pumas gas no less. The f'n Kiwis ae THAT f'n good hahahahah.

Love the Kiwis. Lol.

[the paradox of thrift]

Camper currently the quickest boat at 23.1knots in reaching conditions; did JuanK modify the boat in Aukland?

+1

Not really. The boats furthest SE are extending on the fleet, so Telefonica is making big gains and Camper is stretching a little on the two behind. They might compress again a bit as the wind drops in 12 hours time. Camper lost guage and distance on Telefonica in the past two scheds, which will frustrate them.

Camper shows a slight weakness reaching, but defintely has legs on the JK boats upwind. They have a couple of clicks of height on them.

We haven't seen much of the hard running so far. This time tomorow they'll be running in 15-20 knots. Once they get past the ice gate they'll be into some good stuff!

At the moment it's blowing 30+ though and all the crews would be happy to just keep it all together at this point. It's racing - but a huge dose of seamanship comes into it.

[Bill Roue]

Go to 15:30ish Puma is clear ahead. At 15.40ish you can see Camper tack from a bad position astern of Puma and in their dirt. Puma's at about 10:00-11:00 o'clock and clear ahead. Camper could not and would never have been able to hang there. Hence their hand was forced to tack

Camper's position

Saw what you guys want but Camper was FORCED to tack. They couldn't hang there. Saying that they can is complete bullshit and shows a serious lack of understanding of how boats interact.

Fuck - it's a simple fact but, again, love the fact you fans are too blind with NZ boy love to realize the truth. Good stuff.

[harzak]

Yes, they might have been able to tack right after the start - but that is not the place to do it. You have to pick your spot, with the objective being to maximize the advantage over the other boats - i.e., force the fleet left into the tide, then tack to stay out of it yourself for as much as possible (while limiting the number of tacks).
That is the plan for the beat and, in turn, dictates the plan for the start - bow out, speed at the gun, etc. are all nice-to-haves, but the must-have is to be able to tack for the wall exactly when you want (and prevent others from doing the same).

Thanks for pointing it out with such a good and clear explanation without snark or condescension. Something rarely seen these days...

Given the local knowledge and typical strategic prep aboard Puma, makes even less sense for them not to have sailed high mode at the start and been exactly where Camper was up the beat, 'cause they would've been there 8 seconds earlier. Why do you think they got suckered into sailing lower, and holding the middle even with the big tide running and Camper going so early?

Yes, thank you very much BT. More of your analysis please!

Clean: Puma was a bit early. Being early you either have to lose speed or sail a further distance. Or a bit of both, which it looks like Puma did: losing a bit of speed and going a little bit down the line.

[STYACHT]

I think Dalton is scouting for another designer, Kiwi style reasoning at work.

Just as MB was in the team's roster already and was not "hired" for the VOR, they already have G Verdier on their team as part of the AC72 program. I reckon he will have a go at the next VO70 if there is one.

[Evo]

The lot of you are like us Canadians

haven't got a thing right yet?

[Heriberto]

The lot of you are like us Canadians

haven't got a thing right yet?

Teed up.

This one is a two-fer.

[Prawn]

Just going back to the original report for a sec, this bit caught my attention: "...The sport is in decline, ISAF has no influence or face except at the Olympics and so how does it get turned around?” All I can say is that if a turnaround is required, the last people I'd want involved would be ISAF. Every time I hear 'ISAF', the muppet music comes drifting back.... Imagine if ISAF ran the Volvo - it would be sailed in some kind of ocean-going 470-like pig.

[PeterHuston]

Just going back to the original report for a sec, this bit caught my attention: "...The sport is in decline, ISAF has no influence or face except at the Olympics and so how does it get turned around?" All I can say is that if a turnaround is required, the last people I'd want involved would be ISAF. Every time I hear 'ISAF', the muppet music comes drifting back.... Imagine if ISAF ran the Volvo - it would be sailed in some kind of ocean-going 470-like pig.

Yes, this is perhaps as much of the story as anything about the article. Dalton has done a great job attracting and keeping sponsors, but, what does he do to really help the long view of the sport on a global basis? His vision is to just use cheaper boats for AC 35 if he wins 34. The issue is not the cost of the boat, it is the number of eyeballs watching the boats and the sponsor value derived from that. Besides, the decline of the sport didn't start with designers, it started with owners who listened to sailmakers, starting back in the late 70's. Sailmakers loaded up the boats with their staff, sold a ton of sails to owners, then when that was topped out, got the designers involved. Eventually this morphed into "project managers" for owners. Ultimately, the market is what the market is. What is needed is a promoter that comes up with the right matrix to satisfy the part of the market that pays the bills, whether they be sponsors or people who buy some sort of ticket/subscription to watch.

The sport of paid professional racing isn't in free fall because of ISAF, it is in free fall because no on in the free marketplace has come up with a formula that really works on a global basis. There are a couple of circuits that seem to do OK, the ESS, maybe the pro match racing circuit. ISAF is just about regulatory control, and if Dalton is looking in that direction for leadership, what's that tell you about his mindset?

[paulg]

[quote name='the paradox of thrift' timestamp='1332155138' post='3633065']
I like Grant Dalton. I'll defend the guy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if what was said may have been intended to be off the record, or at least it was said without anticipating the headline it attracted - the rugby reporter who wrote the piece doesn't normally write about the yachting. That said ...

Think you are bang on the money ...from my understanding on how the comments originated is - he was at a dinner and asked about the mixed results - and replied that there is a speed difference reaching compared to the 3 Juan boats ....( there have been several instances where this has been apparent - the port race in Abu Dhabi comes to mind ) and that their designer had got it wrong on that point of sailing...any further comments he made ie would they use the same designer again ... were questions put to him not him bleeting on.... some people may interpret that as bad form where as it is really Dalton being brutuallly honest as he always is....
Think people love to pick up on these sorts of comments and make a big thing out it...

[MR.CLEAN]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if what was said may have been intended to be off the record, or at least it was said without anticipating the headline it attracted - the rugby reporter who wrote the piece doesn't normally write about the yachting.

That's why I talked to him right after I read it. He said it was accurate, and reinforced the statement with the additional info that should be on the front page by now in 'big red dog'.

[dlangpap]

Even though Racetracker seems an imperfect way to gauge boat speed, all I can say is that, when Tlf. and Camper have been reaching and close to each other (so in similar conditions one can assume), Tlf. have either caught up to Camper if they were behind or extended if in front and the speed shown has more often that not been faster by up to 1.5 kn. This has happened many times already so it could be said it is a trend. Some other people involved in the race, like Ian Walker also seem to think that Tlf. have a speed edge reaching.

So maybe some of the questions that should be asked are>

-If one designer has built the best boat in the most recent VORs, why not go with him? If the crew is so good and the rest of the boats are similar in speed, let the crew make the difference.

-Why design a boat that is faster pointing in a race that is, normally, mostly cross or downwind?

Did they think that maybe, by choosing a different designer, they could come up with a strike of genius that would be faster than the Juan K boats? Notwithstanding other interests that we don't know about, it does not seem to make sense strategically to have picked this designer in the first place...

[tls]

Then you have Dalton's school, which is "try to be as open as you can, but if you're going to say something controversial in public, have a good reason for it." He certainly didn't learn that from us, if that's what you're implying.

As best as I can tell, the "good reason for it" is to cast blame as far from himself as is feasible. This is good for his future sponsorships, but isn't necessarily an entirely honest assessment.

From my view point, they would be in exactly the same place in the standings even if they were sailing Tele's sistership. They lost places due to tactics and navigation in each of the major ocean legs. If their boat is slower all around, it really isn't obvious, although it is a bit different. Camper has been at least the measure of the JK boats upwind in breeze, but perhaps a fraction of percent slower when power reaching. These differences are small enough that there are many possible explanations.

[Heriberto]

Dalton: "Of course I employed him, and in the end, all roads lead to me, but this is deeper. .... There is not enough accountability in the sport from designers and the like..."

Clean, this is even worse than what he said to the newspaper. This is the kind of corporate ass-covering that is clearly recognizable to anyone who has seen a boss climb over the dead bodies of their staff. Accountability for thee, but none for me.

If he actually wanted to work to make things right, he would do his damn job, get everyone together in a war room and figure out the problems. There would be no need to throw the designer under the bus in the press, because accountability actually means giving people a chance to fix whatever you perceive is the problem, not assigning blame when you don't achieve perfection. Have they done that? Has Botin actually "failed to be accountable"? How would they know if they didn't talk to them? What was the design portfolio, who decided? What inputs did they give to Botin, because it is obvious from Botin's initial comments that ETNZ are knowledgeable clients and had a lot of input. Obviously these are all collaborative efforts, but no talk of sailmakers failing to build fast sails, Navagators going the wrong way or not deciding which way to go (Leg 1), spar builder. Nope, it's all the designers lines that are holding them back.

What a load.

[Indio]

Dalton went to Sanya with changes in mind, but was "convinced" not to effect them: Nico survived to Auckland, won the in-port race set up for Camper, and Camper are opening a new shop in Australia. I can understand why Camper would have "convinced" Dalton not to sack Nico before the leg down-Under: wouldn't have looked good for the new shop.

[lead]

Dalton went to Sanya with changes in mind, but was "convinced" not to effect them: Nico survived to Auckland, won the in-port race set up for Camper, and Camper are opening a new shop in Australia. I can understand why Camper would have "convinced" Dalton not to sack Nico before the leg down-Under: wouldn't have looked good for the new shop.

and i suppose they set up the leg 5 start for sanya too just to be fair and all, you know spread it around the local lads. Where do you come up with this shit

[lead]

Dalton went to Sanya with changes in mind, but was "convinced" not to effect them: Nico survived to Auckland, won the in-port race set up for Camper, and Camper are opening a new shop in Australia. I can understand why Camper would have "convinced" Dalton not to sack Nico before the leg down-Under: wouldn't have looked good for the new shop.

Camper know nothing about sailing yet you say they are telling Dalts who he should have on his team. Fuck your've lost it

[JL92S]

There is very little power in that stern compared to the other boats, the juan k boats particularly groupama have the weight further back in the boat and more powerful sterns, if you watch the boats rounding leeward marks in breeze the camper boat keeps the bow down whereas the juank boats seem to 'float' the bows as they come onto the wind

[Indio]

Dalton went to Sanya with changes in mind, but was "convinced" not to effect them: Nico survived to Auckland, won the in-port race set up for Camper, and Camper are opening a new shop in Australia. I can understand why Camper would have "convinced" Dalton not to sack Nico before the leg down-Under: wouldn't have looked good for the new shop.

and i suppose they set up the leg 5 start for sanya too just to be fair and all, you know spread it around the local lads. Where do you come up with this shit

You obviously didn't get the memo..... Btw, how many W/L in-port courses have they set, before Auckland?? Or do you believe it was Nico's "tactical brilliance" which won them the race? I don't see much wrong with home-town decisions in a sponsor-driven event such as VOR.

[Dibley]

Botin would have had to design to a tight brief. It would have been a very detailed brief, with plenty of ETNZ input from previous Whitbread/Volvo sailors in the Team that have been through the hoops plenty of times. The key to this blame game is to know what path that brief led to.
They may have got the conditions/angles wrong in their pre-analysis of the course, (expected more downwind?), which could have led to this particular hull shape. They could have………
……regardless, the race is only half over. Best to work through what is there now and make the most of it. The hammer can fall after the race is over…

[dlangpap]

Botin would have had to design to a tight brief. It would have been a very detailed brief, with plenty of ETNZ input from previous Whitbread/Volvo sailors in the Team that have been through the hoops plenty of times. The key to this blame game is to know what path that brief led to.
They may have got the conditions/angles wrong in their pre-analysis of the course, (expected more downwind?), which could have led to this particular hull shape. They could have………
……regardless, the race is only half over. Best to work through what is there now and make the most of it. The hammer can fall after the race is over…

Agree. I mean it is very unlikely that people that are experienced in the VOR would make a mistake in the design brief. They would have known that, statistically, most of the race would be from 90 degrees downwind. I think for this race the conditions so far have been more upwind than normal so maybe we still have to see the real sweet spot for Camper. However, the fact remains that a risky strategic decision was made to hire Botin for design, especially taking into account the recent track record of the Juan K boats. So, IMO, maybe they tried to design a one of a kind winner or they had some pressure (sponsors, public) to use a Spanish designer?

[Scarecrow]

There is not enough accountability in the sport from designers and the like..."

This part I agree with 100%. I almost commented after reading the R/P front page article the other day. Where they said they had "fixed" the issue on all the boats where they stuffed up the ass end. Somehow I don't believe they sent a cheque to each of the owners to cover the cost of the changes, I'd be surprised if they even refunded a percentage of the design fee.

It is funny, I'm actually a huge fan of Dalton and living in NZ at the time was pleased / relieved when he stepped up to the plate with TNZ. But so much of what is coming out of the "straight shooters" mouth at present seems to be posturing, preemptive arse covering or content to maximize the teams press exposure.

[tls]

There is very little power in that stern compared to the other boats, the juan k boats particularly groupama have the weight further back in the boat and more powerful sterns, if you watch the boats rounding leeward marks in breeze the camper boat keeps the bow down whereas the juank boats seem to 'float' the bows as they come onto the wind

Everyone can see that the boats look different. They also have different color paint, for what that is worth, but Camper is extremely close to the same speed as the JK designs. I cannot find evidence from any of the long legs of the race that shows Camper getting significantly overhauled by one of the JK boats in close quarters. Virtually every time she gets passed by a JK design it is by a boat that is sailing in different weather or on a different course. She got beat by all three JK designs on leg 4, but two of those boats sailed substantially different courses than Camper and their entire advantage was accrued during that separation. In contrast, Tele -- the overall race leader -- sailed a course that was quite close to Camper for almost the whole leg, and Tele's elapsed time was just a few seconds faster after weeks of racing. On the other legs, Camper has finished in the middle of the JK sisterships. I am just not seeing the evidence that Camper is a slow design, although she is clearly somewhat different. The only way to come to that conclusion is to ASSUME that Camper is the best sailed boat, and then to look for some other excuse why she isn't on top of the leader board.

I think the interesting question to ask Dalts is "What evidence do you have have that your design is slower overall than Puma or Groupama?" Perhaps another way would be to ask him where Camper would be on the leader board if they had swapped boats with Groupama prior to the start of the race, but had still made all the same calls on the water (e.g., the costly head-fake in leg 1, spending too long trying to bash through the ridge in leg 2, failure to get north in leg 4, etc). It looks to me that they would likely be in third place, just where they are now. Best case scenario, they would be in second with 5 more points than they currently have.

[vadfan]

very difficult to prove if a design is faulty.

while creating a bit of a media storm in the sailing world, most sailors will realise that it takes more than a design to win a race.

something others haven't mentioned yet is that if this was a true round the world race, there'd only be 2 boats left, telefonica and tnz.

The guys on Groupama was qouted saying that they definitely felt that they had a really fast boat particularly in reaching conditions, they only boat they feared speedwise was Telefonica. They definitely discounted Campers chances due to speed problems.

To me it looks like Camper have during very loong periods have positioned themselves really well, from where they would have pulled away if they have had a speed edge and potentialgly been gone. However, Telefonica have ocassionally repositioned themselves in relation to the fleet (just like yesterday) and have made crucial gains, moves that I have yet to see Camper do. Tactically Camper seem slightly conservative, much more so than the two boats ahead of them?

VF

[paulg]

, won the in-port race set up for Camper,

Lol -set up for Camper! - the course was set up for maximum public viewing which is what the in port races are about.....it was just a fluke it was blowing NE and it made it w/l ... the course was set up long ago and would have stayed the same whatever direction the wind was blowing and was also determined by the shape of the harbout in that particular area...granted it probably favoured Camper more as opposed to one that would had reaching legs in it ... but that was pure coinincidence...

[MR.CLEAN]

Botin would have had to design to a tight brief. It would have been a very detailed brief, with plenty of ETNZ input from previous Whitbread/Volvo sailors in the Team that have been through the hoops plenty of times. The key to this blame game is to know what path that brief led to.
They may have got the conditions/angles wrong in their pre-analysis of the course, (expected more downwind?), which could have led to this particular hull shape. They could have………
……regardless, the race is only half over. Best to work through what is there now and make the most of it. The hammer can fall after the race is over…

I think Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail (design info, emails, etc) that leads to someone else, because once under the bus, that shit has a mysterious way of getting to the public regardless of confidentiality and NDAs in place.

[dlangpap]

There is very little power in that stern compared to the other boats, the juan k boats particularly groupama have the weight further back in the boat and more powerful sterns, if you watch the boats rounding leeward marks in breeze the camper boat keeps the bow down whereas the juank boats seem to 'float' the bows as they come onto the wind

Everyone can see that the boats look different. They also have different color paint, for what that is worth, but Camper is extremely close to the same speed as the JK designs. I cannot find evidence from any of the long legs of the race that shows Camper getting significantly overhauled by one of the JK boats in close quarters. Virtually every time she gets passed by a JK design it is by a boat that is sailing in different weather or on a different course. She got beat by all three JK designs on leg 4, but two of those boats sailed substantially different courses than Camper and their entire advantage was accrued during that separation. In contrast, Tele -- the overall race leader -- sailed a course that was quite close to Camper for almost the whole leg, and Tele's elapsed time was just a few seconds faster after weeks of racing. On the other legs, Camper has finished in the middle of the JK sisterships. I am just not seeing the evidence that Camper is a slow design, although she is clearly somewhat different. The only way to come to that conclusion is to ASSUME that Camper is the best sailed boat, and then to look for some other excuse why she isn't on top of the leader board.

I think the interesting question to ask Dalts is "What evidence do you have have that your design is slower overall than Puma or Groupama?" Perhaps another way would be to ask him where Camper would be on the leader board if they had swapped boats with Groupama prior to the start of the race, but had still made all the same calls on the water (e.g., the costly head-fake in leg 1, spending too long trying to bash through the ridge in leg 2, failure to get north in leg 4, etc). It looks to me that they would likely be in third place, just where they are now. Best case scenario, they would be in second with 5 more points than they currently have.

If you want to look for speed differentials you can't go to the final results of a leg because most of the time those positions reflect the results of tactical decisions, less so boat speeds. The fact that Camper and Tlf. arrived in Auckland separated by less than 2 minutes was probably more a result of Camper making up a lot of ground in the final approach than having similar speed to Tlf. the whole leg. Correct me if I am wrong but Camper was closer than 2nm to Tlf. when approaching the northern tip of the island. This distance increased steadily in favor of Tlf. (at that point the LIVE option was active) until Camper made a tactical choice to go more offshore than Tlf. and that ended up paying because they had more wind and were sailing faster. However, as it turned out, it was not enough because of the cushion Tlf. had built before. There is also what the other skippers are saying. So far I have heard both Walker and Cammas say that Tlf. is fast, if not the fastest of the current fleet.

[MR.CLEAN]

It seems really silly to think that, without the data logs, you can compare the boats' relative performance. It's far too easy for a fast boat to make you you look tactically brilliant, or vice versa.

I think a lot of people would be happy to see Dalts have to eat his words with an extra helping of marmite.

[J24_guy]

Very common mistake: The situation/position at the time of the the gun matters much less than 1-2 minutes into the race.

Holy condescending tone, Batman. Assuming that we, the great unwashed -- the vulgar groundlings of SA -- are worthy of commenting in light of your sagacity and wisdom:

I just cleaned my glasses and looked at it again. Puma is a few feet away from the corner of the committee boat. There was nowhere more windward to go. How in tarnation does Camper have a better start than them? Puma's hosing Camper with gas -- a textbook, perfect start. Mister Ken have big skill, long in future of sailing races... knawhamsayin'?

Should Puma have let Camper tack away? ... absolutely not, but that's a whole separate issue. Dude ... er, My Liege: you can't seriously contend that ETNZ got a better start than Puma in that race. You will lose a lot of sailboat races if you follow suit. Sure, Clifford sailed a better weather leg than Puma ... ain't no denyin'.

They're Kiwis so of course they're gong to say Camper was controlling... From astern and in Pumas gas no less. The f'n Kiwis ae THAT f'n good hahahahah.

Love the Kiwis. Lol.

That's what mystified me too!!! Unless they were using a force field or mind control or something, I don't see how they were in control of Puma at the start in any way, shape or form. But better minds than mine have asserted that it was nothing more than the perfect execution of well-laid plans by ETNZ. Still, Puma could have cut it a few feet closer to the committee boat (maybe ten feet at the very most), but come on, that is a world-class start no matter how you slice it. Don't remember my sailing coach ever saying, "at the start, feel free to just hang back 2-3 boatlengths, even if you don't have an overlap or clear air ... it's all good fellas."

[dlangpap]

It seems really silly to think that, without the data logs, you can compare the boats' relative performance. It's far too easy for a fast boat to make you you look tactically brilliant, or vice versa.

I think a lot of people would be happy to see Dalts have to eat his words with an extra helping of marmite.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the LIVE tracker using real information? If through various different legs, we see two boats that are frequently <1 nm appart and one starts to pull to 1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.5, 2, 2.7...in front while keeping the same heading, can't we make an informed guess that the boat pulling away is faster, at least under that point of sail?

[Heriberto]

Botin would have had to design to a tight brief. It would have been a very detailed brief, with plenty of ETNZ input from previous Whitbread/Volvo sailors in the Team that have been through the hoops plenty of times. The key to this blame game is to know what path that brief led to.
They may have got the conditions/angles wrong in their pre-analysis of the course, (expected more downwind?), which could have led to this particular hull shape. They could have………
……regardless, the race is only half over. Best to work through what is there now and make the most of it. The hammer can fall after the race is over…

I think Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail (design info, emails, etc) that leads to someone else, because once under the bus, that shit has a mysterious way of getting to the public regardless of confidentiality and NDAs in place.

"Dalton is likely too smart..."

Well, when you come at it from that perspective, then sure.

Journalistic capture. Learn about it.

[Evo]

Don't remember my sailing coach ever saying, "at the start, feel free to just hang back 2-3 boatlengths, even if you don't have an overlap or clear air ..

is your coach sailing the Volvo in port races?

[Indio]

There is very little power in that stern compared to the other boats, the juan k boats particularly groupama have the weight further back in the boat and more powerful sterns, if you watch the boats rounding leeward marks in breeze the camper boat keeps the bow down whereas the juank boats seem to 'float' the bows as they come onto the wind

Everyone can see that the boats look different. They also have different color paint, for what that is worth, but Camper is extremely close to the same speed as the JK designs. I cannot find evidence from any of the long legs of the race that shows Camper getting significantly overhauled by one of the JK boats in close quarters. Virtually every time she gets passed by a JK design it is by a boat that is sailing in different weather or on a different course. She got beat by all three JK designs on leg 4, but two of those boats sailed substantially different courses than Camper and their entire advantage was accrued during that separation. In contrast, Tele -- the overall race leader -- sailed a course that was quite close to Camper for almost the whole leg, and Tele's elapsed time was just a few seconds faster after weeks of racing. On the other legs, Camper has finished in the middle of the JK sisterships. I am just not seeing the evidence that Camper is a slow design, although she is clearly somewhat different. The only way to come to that conclusion is to ASSUME that Camper is the best sailed boat, and then to look for some other excuse why she isn't on top of the leader board.

I think the interesting question to ask Dalts is "What evidence do you have have that your design is slower overall than Puma or Groupama?" Perhaps another way would be to ask him where Camper would be on the leader board if they had swapped boats with Groupama prior to the start of the race, but had still made all the same calls on the water (e.g., the costly head-fake in leg 1, spending too long trying to bash through the ridge in leg 2, failure to get north in leg 4, etc). It looks to me that they would likely be in third place, just where they are now. Best case scenario, they would be in second with 5 more points than they currently have.

Great summation. I suspect that the current standings would be the same if we had Telefonica's crew on Camper and the ETNZ crew + Nico on Tele.

[coxcreek]

For fuck's sake, Puma sagged, sagged away to leeward, couldn't point for shit for some reason, there was a large lane for Camper to show her superior windward ability, there was no fucking gassing, Camper was behind, yes but well up from Puma, otherfucking wise, she would have stalled - did you see any stalling? - no, Camper climbed and tacked, race over. Jeez. None so blind etc.

[Heriberto]

There is very little power in that stern compared to the other boats, the juan k boats particularly groupama have the weight further back in the boat and more powerful sterns, if you watch the boats rounding leeward marks in breeze the camper boat keeps the bow down whereas the juank boats seem to 'float' the bows as they come onto the wind

Everyone can see that the boats look different. They also have different color paint, for what that is worth, but Camper is extremely close to the same speed as the JK designs. I cannot find evidence from any of the long legs of the race that shows Camper getting significantly overhauled by one of the JK boats in close quarters. Virtually every time she gets passed by a JK design it is by a boat that is sailing in different weather or on a different course. She got beat by all three JK designs on leg 4, but two of those boats sailed substantially different courses than Camper and their entire advantage was accrued during that separation. In contrast, Tele -- the overall race leader -- sailed a course that was quite close to Camper for almost the whole leg, and Tele's elapsed time was just a few seconds faster after weeks of racing. On the other legs, Camper has finished in the middle of the JK sisterships. I am just not seeing the evidence that Camper is a slow design, although she is clearly somewhat different. The only way to come to that conclusion is to ASSUME that Camper is the best sailed boat, and then to look for some other excuse why she isn't on top of the leader board.

I think the interesting question to ask Dalts is "What evidence do you have have that your design is slower overall than Puma or Groupama?" Perhaps another way would be to ask him where Camper would be on the leader board if they had swapped boats with Groupama prior to the start of the race, but had still made all the same calls on the water (e.g., the costly head-fake in leg 1, spending too long trying to bash through the ridge in leg 2, failure to get north in leg 4, etc). It looks to me that they would likely be in third place, just where they are now. Best case scenario, they would be in second with 5 more points than they currently have.

You will get nowhere with this tls. Results? Piffle. A ridiculous exercise of actually timing the boats over the course. That tells you nothing. NOTHING. It's all about what we can clearly see on the race tracker. That is the only gauge. That and Dalts secret data. The data he has not only on his own boat, but all the others.

And why not assume Camper is the best sailed boat? It clearly is. It has to be. That's because it is filled with ETNZ. There is something special about these guys. The fact they can sail this Clifford into second on the majority of legs, and are barely behind 2nd overall is because they can do better in their sleep than any of the other teams fully rested.

They are good tls, real good. They shit favorable tacks, that's how they are able to beat the rocketships, despite being on a dumptruck.

[paul gore]

The fact is that after almost a day beam reaching in hard conditions, Camper has managed to stay in between the Juan K boats. Certainly Telefonica has a narrow speed edge, GPMA as well, but PUMA is slower than the other 3. It suggests that going fast is not only a matter of hull shape. And Telefonica is ahead due to positioning, not speed.

[MR.CLEAN]

It seems really silly to think that, without the data logs, you can compare the boats' relative performance. It's far too easy for a fast boat to make you you look tactically brilliant, or vice versa.

I think a lot of people would be happy to see Dalts have to eat his words with an extra helping of marmite.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the LIVE tracker using real information? If through various different legs, we see two boats that are frequently <1 nm appart and one starts to pull to 1, 1.1, 1.2, 1.5, 2, 2.7...in front while keeping the same heading, can't we make an informed guess that the boat pulling away is faster, at least under that point of sail?

If you have the data logs and can compare all (or a statistically sufficient volume) of the data, then sure. If not, then you might as well be throwing darts at a board.

[MR.CLEAN]

Botin would have had to design to a tight brief. It would have been a very detailed brief, with plenty of ETNZ input from previous Whitbread/Volvo sailors in the Team that have been through the hoops plenty of times. The key to this blame game is to know what path that brief led to.
They may have got the conditions/angles wrong in their pre-analysis of the course, (expected more downwind?), which could have led to this particular hull shape. They could have………
……regardless, the race is only half over. Best to work through what is there now and make the most of it. The hammer can fall after the race is over…

I think Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail (design info, emails, etc) that leads to someone else, because once under the bus, that shit has a mysterious way of getting to the public regardless of confidentiality and NDAs in place.

"Dalton is likely too smart..."

Well, when you come at it from that perspective, then sure.

Journalistic capture. Learn about it.

Let me rephrase this in a way you don't have trouble understanding, since you had trouble understanding anything past the first five words:

Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail that leads to someone else's error - for instance, Dalton's signing off on a design brief that, for argument's sake, specifies an upwind-favored boat where reaching is third on the priority list. Because eventually, especially if he keeps slagging off the design firm, there's a good chance that that document would make it to the public eye, and we'd be the first to run it. Dalton is certainly quite intelligent - I have no idea how intelligent - but intelligent nonetheless. That wasn't actually part of my post, though I could see how you got distracted. Dalton also knows that if he gets caught in a lie about this stuff, we'll be the first to post it.

Captured?

[J24_guy]

I was just looking at photos from the Auckland in-port race. You guys are right, Camper is WAY bow-down compared to every other boat (not in the sense of pointing; in the sense of the bow knuckle is down in the water and the transom is out). Clearly that's how most of us have learned to sail upwind. at least in boats that are small enough that the weight of the crew can imppact it, and to shift weight back when in surfing/planing conditions, off the wind.

Is there any way on a Open 70 to dynamically move a meaningful amount of weight fore and aft? That might be the next thing after swing keels ... you go could go upwind like a Botin and off the breeze like a JuanK.

[smackdaddy]

Here's a good article with Botin laying the design approach (with some of the recent quotes in context):

http://en.nauticwebn...er-for-success/

"We're not expecting to be knots faster than everyone else but we'd be very satisfied if we have given the team a slight advantage.

"Even with the smallest of advantages the right team with the right guys will do the rest.

and...could this be the "bow down" issue?

CAMPER's unusual design features a keel that sits in front of the mast rather than behind it, and daggerboards positioned behind the keel.

[Indio]

Botin would have had to design to a tight brief. It would have been a very detailed brief, with plenty of ETNZ input from previous Whitbread/Volvo sailors in the Team that have been through the hoops plenty of times. The key to this blame game is to know what path that brief led to.
They may have got the conditions/angles wrong in their pre-analysis of the course, (expected more downwind?), which could have led to this particular hull shape. They could have………
……regardless, the race is only half over. Best to work through what is there now and make the most of it. The hammer can fall after the race is over…

I think Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail (design info, emails, etc) that leads to someone else, because once under the bus, that shit has a mysterious way of getting to the public regardless of confidentiality and NDAs in place.

"Dalton is likely too smart..."

Well, when you come at it from that perspective, then sure.

Journalistic capture. Learn about it.

Let me rephrase this in a way you don't have trouble understanding, since you had trouble understanding anything past the first five words:

Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail that leads to someone else's error - for instance, Dalton's signing off on a design brief that, for argument's sake, specifies an upwind-favored boat where reaching is third on the priority list. Because eventually, especially if he keeps slagging off the design firm, there's a good chance that that document would make it to the public eye, and we'd be the first to run it. Dalton is certainly quite intelligent - I have no idea how intelligent - but intelligent nonetheless. That wasn't actually part of my post, though I could see how you got distracted. Dalton also knows that if he gets caught in a lie about this stuff, we'll be the first to post it.

Captured?

He's from Minnesota...be charitable and make allowances

[tls]

If you want to look for speed differentials you can't go to the final results of a leg because most of the time those positions reflect the results of tactical decisions, less so boat speeds. The fact that Camper and Tlf. arrived in Auckland separated by less than 2 minutes was probably more a result of Camper making up a lot of ground in the final approach than having similar speed to Tlf. the whole leg. Correct me if I am wrong but Camper was closer than 2nm to Tlf. when approaching the northern tip of the island. This distance increased steadily in favor of Tlf. (at that point the LIVE option was active) until Camper made a tactical choice to go more offshore than Tlf. and that ended up paying because they had more wind and were sailing faster. However, as it turned out, it was not enough because of the cushion Tlf. had built before. There is also what the other skippers are saying. So far I have heard both Walker and Cammas say that Tlf. is fast, if not the fastest of the current fleet.

The overall speed differences between boats is very small. I am pretty sure that Camper is a bit slower power reaching than the JK boats, but this difference is very small relative to the finish margins between boats. When Camper has lost positions in these races it has not been because of boat speed, but because some other boat made a better decision.

I will grant you that Camper came back a bit at the end of leg 4, but Camper and Tele were not more than about 30 miles apart in terms of distance to finish during the whole leg. Sometimes Camper was ahead, sometimes behind. If Camper was an overall slower boat, as claimed, I don't see how the race leader was not able to steadily gain on them throughout the leg given that they sailed very similar courses. Instead, Camper gained on Tele over the first few days, Tele gained on Camper in the tradewind reaching, and then Camper gained it back over the final 24 hours.

Tele finished 13 hours behind Groupama, and none of that can be blamed on the designer. Camper also finished 13 hours behind Groupama with very similar routing to Tele. It looks to me like, if Camper had been sailing a JK design their finish would have looked a lot like Telefonica's.

Basically, I don't see a strong reason to bitch about your boat being slower by 0.5 sec/mile when you are losing races by 1 sec/mile. You'd still be losing in one design.

[Riptide]

Here is the difference and handicap that camper has in terms of being heavy in the nose and pushing a ton of water, go to 16:15 in the clip and watch the next couple of minutes and you will see the difference in designs between the boats.

16:15 in the video

http://new.livestrea...race/sanyaproam

[smackdaddy]

Here is the difference and handicap that camper has in terms of being heavy in the nose and pushing a ton of water, go to 16:15 in the clip and watch the next couple of minutes and you will see the difference in designs between the boats.

16:15 in the video

http://new.livestrea...race/sanyaproam

Good find. Actually the commentator notices it and says "Boy, she pushes a lot of water forward. The bow is not popping out of the water. That's interesting..." (then goes on to compare her with the other boats). The shot of Camper versus AD definitely shows a stark contrast.

[J24_guy]

Basically, I don't see a strong reason to bitch about your boat being slower by 0.5 sec/mile when you are losing races by 1 sec/mile. You'd still be losing in one design.

That sums it up precisely.

[paulg]

There is very little power in that stern compared to the other boats, the juan k boats particularly groupama have the weight further back in the boat and more powerful sterns, if you watch the boats rounding leeward marks in breeze the camper boat keeps the bow down whereas the juank boats seem to 'float' the bows as they come onto the wind

Everyone can see that the boats look different. They also have different color paint, for what that is worth, but Camper is extremely close to the same speed as the JK designs. I cannot find evidence from any of the long legs of the race that shows Camper getting significantly overhauled by one of the JK boats in close quarters. Virtually every time she gets passed by a JK design it is by a boat that is sailing in different weather or on a different course. She got beat by all three JK designs on leg 4, but two of those boats sailed substantially different courses than Camper and their entire advantage was accrued during that separation. In contrast, Tele -- the overall race leader -- sailed a course that was quite close to Camper for almost the whole leg, and Tele's elapsed time was just a few seconds faster after weeks of racing. On the other legs, Camper has finished in the middle of the JK sisterships. I am just not seeing the evidence that Camper is a slow design, although she is clearly somewhat different. The only way to come to that conclusion is to ASSUME that Camper is the best sailed boat, and then to look for some other excuse why she isn't on top of the leader board.

I think the interesting question to ask Dalts is "What evidence do you have have that your design is slower overall than Puma or Groupama?" Perhaps another way would be to ask him where Camper would be on the leader board if they had swapped boats with Groupama prior to the start of the race, but had still made all the same calls on the water (e.g., the costly head-fake in leg 1, spending too long trying to bash through the ridge in leg 2, failure to get north in leg 4, etc). It looks to me that they would likely be in third place, just where they are now. Best case scenario, they would be in second with 5 more points than they currently have.

Great summation. I suspect that the current standings would be the same if we had Telefonica's crew on Camper and the ETNZ crew + Nico on Tele.

In the Abu Dhabi Port race Camper was left wallowing on the reach - from memory going from 2nd place to 4th (I may be wrong on those placings but it was dramatic)..plus a few other situations when she couldnt hold Telefonica or Groupama ...all those 3 crews would acknowledge there is a speed difference on a reach no question..

[tls]

It seems really silly to think that, without the data logs, you can compare the boats' relative performance. It's far too easy for a fast boat to make you you look tactically brilliant, or vice versa.

I don't think that Dalts has data logs from the other boats. He has data recorded by Camper's crew from when other boats are within line of site (a small fraction of the race), and he has the transmitted data that is public.

I agree that a fast boat can make the sailors look brilliant. The trailing boats often need to make riskier decisions. However, this does not describe Camper's problems. Camper was actually in the lead when they allowed Groupama to separate to the north in leg 4; they were also in the lead when the left the Med and then took that costly detour down the African coast before changing their minds; and they were leading in leg 3 as they approached Banda Aceh before they sailed into a series of wind holes in the Malacca Straights.

Camper has not been a backmarker of the fleet. She has held lead several days into Leg 1, Leg 2, Leg 3, and Leg 4. I just don't see how Camper can be so consistently among the leaders while the fleet is all on the same course if their boat is a significantly slower boat all around than the three JK designs. Whatever difference there are have to be pretty small.

[Riptide]

http://new.livestrea...race/sanyaproam


Also check out later in the clip 26:00 where you can see Abu Dubai and Puma behind camper not pushing any water, and this is in flat conditions so I can only imagine in heavy seas shes gonna slow down alot if she is always pushing into the waves rather then skipping over the top.

[Heriberto]

Botin would have had to design to a tight brief. It would have been a very detailed brief, with plenty of ETNZ input from previous Whitbread/Volvo sailors in the Team that have been through the hoops plenty of times. The key to this blame game is to know what path that brief led to.
They may have got the conditions/angles wrong in their pre-analysis of the course, (expected more downwind?), which could have led to this particular hull shape. They could have………
……regardless, the race is only half over. Best to work through what is there now and make the most of it. The hammer can fall after the race is over…

I think Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail (design info, emails, etc) that leads to someone else, because once under the bus, that shit has a mysterious way of getting to the public regardless of confidentiality and NDAs in place.

"Dalton is likely too smart..."

Well, when you come at it from that perspective, then sure.

Journalistic capture. Learn about it.

Let me rephrase this in a way you don't have trouble understanding, since you had trouble understanding anything past the first five words:

Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail that leads to someone else's error - for instance, Dalton's signing off on a design brief that, for argument's sake, specifies an upwind-favored boat where reaching is third on the priority list. Because eventually, especially if he keeps slagging off the design firm, there's a good chance that that document would make it to the public eye, and we'd be the first to run it. Dalton is certainly quite intelligent - I have no idea how intelligent - but intelligent nonetheless. That wasn't actually part of my post, though I could see how you got distracted. Dalton also knows that if he gets caught in a lie about this stuff, we'll be the first to post it.

Captured?

Being from Minnesota (Chicago actually), I might not be as smart with the English language as you are (especially you being the sailing media professional and all), so have pity on me and my lack of ability to understand things. Please excuse me for wondering, as dumb as I am, why I'm still smart enough to realize the most obvious question that you couldn't seem to muster either the smarts or courage to ask Dalton.

Namely, how do you know Grant? What evidence do you have that the boat is slow and it is down to BC, when there are obviously so many other issues in strategic and tactical errors? How has the boat managed to be so close in all the legs when you say it is funamentally flawed? You've beaten two out of the three JuanK boats on four out of five legs.

Journalistic capture is when, like regulatory capture, you are so close to your subject that your objectivity and skepticism fly out the window. I would have thought you would know that, being so much smarter and all.

[bigpat]

I personally think there is just arse covering going on here due to commercial pressures.

You can bet your balls the ETNZ brains trust were innately involved in the boats' evolution, so some pooh must stick to them too. They chose Botin based on TP52 success, which Botin excel at. If I was racing passage races, R & P are the go to guys. Juan K is undoubtedly the pre-eminent VOR 70 designer. They thought they knew better. Design is a bit like on water tactics: race with the pack, and you'll be near the front, with a chance. If you go your own way, you either look famous, or disappear down the S bend. They made their bed, now they have to sleep in it......

As mentioned elsewhere, the boat boat has been right up there but never capitalised on it. They've had their chances. This now only puts more pressure on the crew.

At the end of the day, you can't blame the rig or the rags if you run the same as the others can you. But, without numbers from the other boats, design qualities are the hardest to quantify, and thus the easiest to refute. Dalt's has shot himself in the foot, and it's Campers' loss, as I can't see Botin having much time for the program any more.......

[Terrafirma]

I believe the thread was about Dalton blasting the designer, not about how Camper won the in-port race. They are currently in 2nd position in a very rough leg so far, not sure that Camper is too much slower than the Juan K boats, reaching seems to be acknowledged as the issue. Dalton makes a key point in his interview, he says they the designer lead you to where they want to go with the design (To a point he adds). So I suspect Botin & Carkeek had the final say with the design and Dalton went along with their recommendation, thats why he is angry. He then goes off on a tangent saying this is why the sport is down, no accountability etc, thats bullshit. You choose the designer it's your choice, your risk. My point earlier was had he chosen JuanK then their only excuse would have been their own performance. They have not sailed consistently well imo.

[Mud sailor]

So, when can we expect a designer to complain about the race crew/owner fucking up by going the wrong way (like Camper on the first leg)

[afondecalle]

So, when can we expect a designer to complain about the race crew/owner fucking up by going the wrong way (like Camper on the first leg)

Ah. Fresh perspective.

[tls]

Dalton is likely too smart to blame Botin if there is a trail that leads to someone else's error - for instance, Dalton's signing off on a design brief that, for argument's sake, specifies an upwind-favored boat where reaching is third on the priority list. Because eventually, especially if he keeps slagging off the design firm, there's a good chance that that document would make it to the public eye, and we'd be the first to run it.

First, Camper is has been an average of ~.05 sec/mile slower than the average of the three JK designs on the legs all have finished. Camper's actually been faster than both Puma and Groupama on average. The idea that Dalton's comments are constrained by the possibility that there is a "smoking gun" that can explain a .05 sec/mile decrement is not plausible. This is within the margin of error for even the best VPP programs. There is nothing to explain because, on average, Camper has been almost exactly as fast as the three JK when all are lined up side by side.

Second, it is a strange form of evidence you present. You don't actually provide any data that Camper's position on the scoreboard is due to a poor design. You reason as follows: Dalts said the design is sole reason Camper isn't winning this thing, and even though that claim happens to shift the blame in a way that maximizes his self-interest, he is far too smart a fellow to attempt to deceive me.

This isn't evidence, this is faith. It also isn't plausible, given that Camper has been in the hunt for winning each leg, until they make a bad call.

[onimod]

Never underestimate the impact of the designers fee, especially with the prevalence of accountants in the sport.

EDIT: it works both ways - ETNZ may have chosen the more expensive choice with the belief that they would get 'more', ot they may have paid less with the belief that the differences in this generation couldn't be that big.

As other have noted the differences are really, really small and they certainly seem to be faster than the previous generation; I don't think that really warrants burning the bridges but it's not my money.

[Heriberto]

If they didn't know which track was which, and you asked someone to pick out the "slow reaching" boat out of all the tracks on all the legs. I doubt there is any way at all that you could pick Camper from the other four top boats.

Is BC going to come back with some "smoking gun"? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe like most companies who have an unsatisfied client, they maintain radio silence on the topic, rather then getting involved in a public pissing match. No matter how that worked out they would lose, even if they were "right".

[MR.CLEAN]

it's not BC. Carkeek and Botin went their separate ways. Good discussion though and I appreciate you all doing my work for me as I put together questions for an interview with Dalton I'll do in person in MIA.

[Ncik]

I like Grant Dalton. I'll defend the guy.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if what was said may have been intended to be off the record, or at least it was said without anticipating the headline it attracted - the rugby reporter who wrote the piece doesn't normally write about the yachting. That said ...

Think you are bang on the money ...from my understanding on how the comments originated is - he was at a dinner and asked about the mixed results - and replied that there is a speed difference reaching compared to the 3 Juan boats ....( there have been several instances where this has been apparent - the port race in Abu Dhabi comes to mind ) and that their designer had got it wrong on that point of sailing...any further comments he made ie would they use the same designer again ... were questions put to him not him bleeting on.... some people may interpret that as bad form where as it is really Dalton being brutuallly honest as he always is....
Think people love to pick up on these sorts of comments and make a big thing out it...

He also said something similar in his opening address to the HPYD (which happened to be in town) on the morning of 12th. It was clear he was irritated by the performance of the boat but probably more irritated by designers (he was surrounded by a bunch of them). My first thought was there'd been a falling out between his design team and their designer. He started out quite calm then seemed to get more manic as the short 5-10 minute speech went on, rushing to get to the finish, rushing off stage, whipping up his jacket and storming out with half-hearted, stunned applause still continuing.

However I agree designers/engineers/naval architects need to be accountable for their work. Proving fault in a scientific manner however is extremely difficult. Much easier to bad mount your designer publicly. Race results are not definitive proof of a flawed design.

[POH]

Who else really hopes that Camper smashes the rest of the race - especially if there is tons of reaching? Nothing would make me happier than to see Camper head to head with the JuanKs and dust them on a reach - not cause I have any love for ETNZ, but precisely because I have LOST all respect for Dalton.

Dalts may be a rockstar in some peoples eyes, but he looks like a fat washed up one to me who's blaming the DJs when no one wants to buy his latest album.

Blaming the designer would make sense INTERNALLY if it was true, but to blast him publicly, before the race is even done, when there is - to the worlds eyes (or at least half of SAers on this thread) - no evidence to suggest that the design is any slower on average than the other boats is just crap.

[thetruth]

The manner in which Dalts has dealt with the race so far has been appalling. He made very public comments about the crews mistakes, the very public "Sanya coaches" and now this. He signed off on the design and tries to make out that he (team) had very little to do with design input. You need to have a very good reason not to go to the favoured designer (JK in this case, Farr in past races) and he choose to. Now this statement about being worried about the direction the sport is going. For fucks sake it is people like GD and his ego that we have the country doing the AC in any place. Remember that he tried and failed last time and now he gets to spend another $150ish million trying to prove God knows what. We had predictions of $30.3 million in one week whilst the Volvo was here and guess what that has been downgraded to $13 million and dropping daily. I wonder if GD has considered making some sort offinancial gesture now that LR has alledgedly ponied up a substantial amount for design data that was initially (partly) funded by the NZ Government? The problem with the sport is cost and the stupid design rules. Imagine if you paid $1 mill for a Ferrari and the next day it depreciated to $300,000? Thats what happens when you build a race boat. And people wonder why there are fewer and fewer people playing? Not rocket science is it?

There is no question GD has done some good things in the past but like everyone else he makes mistakes and it is about time he shouldered a bit of it and stopped blaming all and sundry for his responsibility. As he says "all roads lead to me". The crew must have felt like schoolboys at times and good on them for battling on. Shut the fuck up Grant and let them get on with it.

[corkob]

If you examined the different boats performances in the in port races could you conclude that the separations that are generated are due to design. I think not. Abu Dhabi has won an in port race, so has Camper, and Telefonica. Puma sailed into a hole and was robbed. In my view it is the skill of the crew and a certain amount of luck that is the deciding factor between the top five boats. Different designs may have certain advantages in certain points of sail but then you can't have it every way all the time

[aquila]

There is nothing wrong with attributing blame.

But Dalton has always blamed others when things go wrong, just look back to '93-94 when he blames Farr for saying his maxi will be faster then the whitbread 60's after he gets beaten in one leg. '97-98 for wrong data making him choose the wrong boat , never mind the whole L vs. T keel thing or the fact that he had the wrong deck layout on both boats. 2001-02 where the frers boat was not only the wrong design but also badly built but he only realised after he chose it. c'mon.

If you look at it I don't really think you can single out the designer given the other factors but lets have a look at what we (the public) can see. The dagger boards are the obviously set up for better upwind performance compare to Jk's that are better for reaching but not as good upwind Farr some where inbetween. The bulb, looks shorter and fatter than the farr or jk but presumably has less surface area so better in light winds but worse in high speed conditions i.e. reaching, it may also produce more bow down attitude at high speed.

Some of the sails look different also. But i think some of the comments on leg 4's postponed start give us some more clues, every team except camper agreed with it the conclusion you can draw from this is that while the other teams built a really light boat and then brought it up to minimum weight camper built a boat as strong at the could, meaning the boat had weight spread out along it's length as needed where as the others may have then added weight close to the longitudinal centre of gravity or where they wanted it to improve the LCG.

Grant needs to learn of a concept called Command Responsibility and when your the head of a team that means the buck stops with you!

[tls]

Good discussion though and I appreciate you all doing my work for me as I put together questions for an interview with Dalton I'll do in person in MIA.

If you are asking more questions, it might be good to explore the role that Nico has had in shaping Dalton's view of the boat. I suspect that almost all of the boatspeed numbers for the JK boats are being fed to Dalton through Nico, and Nico's continued employment depends on the disappointing performance being a "boat" problem rather than a "crew" problem.

It is possible that the boat design forced Camper into making different routing choices than the rest of the fleet, but this is a claim that you would need to make on a situation by situation basis. I would ask about these specific choices when Camper lost significant miles to the other boats:

Leg 1: When Camper came out of the Med in the lead, went south, then changed their minds and turned west, (while Puma and Tele continued west and gained 30 miles on Camper) was that decision related to the differences in the designs?

Leg 2: Camper did quite well and I don't see any obvious errors or boat speed problems to ask about. They beat two of three JK designs and sailed extremely similar courses.

Leg 3: When Camper approached Malacca St she was in the leading pack of boats. Then they had trouble clearing Banda Aceh and got stuck in a windless zone on the Eastern side of the straights while the three JK designs made large gains down the middle of the straights. Was Camper's routing choice due to the design?

Leg 4: Camper was leading the leg when both Groupama and Camper headed north. After a few hours, Camper tacked back while Groupama continued north at near zero VMG, closer to Puma. The northern boats had better breeze for the next several days. Was that difference between the choices made by Groupama and Camper due to differences in the boats?

More generally, it would also be good to ask a couple of other questions. Camper appears to have a small edge on the JK designs in some conditions, so the difference in polars may be part of a deliberate trade-off. Have the conditions to date in the race matched the assumptions of the weather model? If not, why? Also, if he feels that Camper has the best sailors why did Dalton chose to go with a different designer than the other major teams? What made Dalton bang the corner/take a flier so early in the planning process for the race?

[bruno]

I found that Nautiweb interview interesting. I was aware that Camper was configured differently than the others but wasn't sure of why. Important to this discussion may be Botin's remark about maximizing for "reaching and running". This may be the source of Dalton's (excessively public) display of buyer's remorse: he thought he was getting a strong reacher.

Perhaps another quote explains what happened: you don't know until you line up with the other guys. Clearly Sanya is faster than the last time around but the competition has gotten faster yet. If JK won on his designs' reaching ability in the past then it makes sense that he would make his new designs even better reachers, and Botin may have not kept up with the "master reacher". JK may have traded off more upwind and running performance for this. Unfortunately, with the icegate moving further north a design's heavy air running ability may go unrewarded, which will bias results further towards reaching ability, further frying what hair is left on Dalton's scalp.

The issue of keel and dagger position and configuration is perhaps more key than in the past with the daggers being able to generate some dynamic lift on some designs or alternately downforce. We don't know much about the interplay between foils, CG, hull shape, rig design, etc., therefore we are stabbing in the dark with our guesses. Tellingly, there is a tow model behind Botin in the photo. I'm not sure about "plowing" as I think that the designers have begun to shape their ends in ways that may "trick" the flow into thinking it is a longer WL, immersed transoms and round bows that at speed no longer are immersed, no longer plowing. After looking at bow waves for a while, I believe that the flow is either parted cleanly to the side (by a sharp cutwater) or rises up along the stem and then folds. What the boffins are doing with their tools in this area is probably worth knowing.

[STYACHT]

Never underestimate the impact of the designers fee, especially with the prevalence of accountants in the sport.

EDIT: it works both ways - ETNZ may have chosen the more expensive choice with the belief that they would get 'more', ot they may have paid less with the belief that the differences in this generation couldn't be that big.

As other have noted the differences are really, really small and they certainly seem to be faster than the previous generation; I don't think that really warrants burning the bridges but it's not my money.

Edit... deleted first part, it was stupid.... As for more expensive, MB was on the payroll. I have zero proof, but I bet it was far less expensive to use staff than to add staff or change staff.

[onimod]

MB was an ETNZ employee?
Interesting.

[tls]

MB was an ETNZ employee?
Interesting.

So, contra Alan, MB is likely to be legally prohibited from discussing the boat's performance without Grant Dalton's approval. How convenient.

[Ncik]

I found that Nautiweb interview interesting. I was aware that Camper was configured differently than the others but wasn't sure of why. Important to this discussion may be Botin's remark about maximizing for "reaching and running". This may be the source of Dalton's (excessively public) display of buyer's remorse: he thought he was getting a strong reacher.

Perhaps another quote explains what happened: you don't know until you line up with the other guys. Clearly Sanya is faster than the last time around but the competition has gotten faster yet. If JK won on his designs' reaching ability in the past then it makes sense that he would make his new designs even better reachers, and Botin may have not kept up with the "master reacher". JK may have traded off more upwind and running performance for this. Unfortunately, with the icegate moving further north a design's heavy air running ability may go unrewarded, which will bias results further towards reaching ability, further frying what hair is left on Dalton's scalp.

The issue of keel and dagger position and configuration is perhaps more key than in the past with the daggers being able to generate some dynamic lift on some designs or alternately downforce. We don't know much about the interplay between foils, CG, hull shape, rig design, etc., therefore we are stabbing in the dark with our guesses. Tellingly, there is a tow model behind Botin in the photo. I'm not sure about "plowing" as I think that the designers have begun to shape their ends in ways that may "trick" the flow into thinking it is a longer WL, immersed transoms and round bows that at speed no longer are immersed, no longer plowing. After looking at bow waves for a while, I believe that the flow is either parted cleanly to the side (by a sharp cutwater) or rises up along the stem and then folds. What the boffins are doing with their tools in this area is probably worth knowing.

the boats are generally always planing, waterline length is almost meaningless when going fast.

can't "trick the flow", water is water, hull length is hull length.

weight distribution is another matter that hasn't been discussed though. camper has always looked like it needed its lcg moved aft a fraction or somehow lift its bow. there is a lot of info that goes into a yachts trim, some examples...
- lcg
- structure weight
- keel weight and position
- crew position
- engine position
- provisions weight and position
- ballast (if they have water ballast)
- sail weight and position
- sail drive
- keel lift

as a percentage of overall weight, how much is provisions and sails.

weight is one of those basics of yacht design that needs to be done right. if a designer doesn't have the weight in the back of his mind constantly and a spreadsheet updated regularly, then he is no good. a yacht design is only as good as the weight estimate. if he isn't getting feedback on the structure weight or is completely off the mark with provisions, then it leads the design process down the wrong path.

[bruno]

Ncik, I was thinking about effects like CBTF on mid-L wave ht. suppression. Yes, flow is flow but it seems not all objects have the same rsistance curve. As for planing all the time, I am under theimpression from another discussion that upwind at best they are semi-displacement. But I don't claim expertise just asking questions of those who know more than me.

[thetruth]

It is because of you design wankers that no one reacts on these threads. Take all your 101 design books somewhere else girls

Ncik, I was thinking about effects like CBTF on mid-L wave ht. suppression. Yes, flow is flow but it seems not all objects have the same rsistance curve. As for planing all the time, I am under theimpression from another discussion that upwind at best they are semi-displacement. But I don't claim expertise just asking questions of those who know more than me.

[Heriberto]

This is really a two-fold situation:

First, is it "true"? Specifically, is the hypothesis "true" that the Botin design is slower than the Juan K boats on a VOR course?* I would argue that given the data and what we know (the posterior pdf(s) for fellow scientific data-crunchers), the probablility of determining that hypothesis to a high degree of precision** is not yet possible, if it ever will be. There are too many variables and too little data. I could give the Bayesian razzle-dazzle on this, but just trust me, I'm a professional, and you can't know.

Second, even assuming it is "true", is it wise to announce this so early in the race (for them) when they are still in strong contention to win? I would think this removes the FUD factor (or maybe it increases it, but that is eleven-dimension chess that I don't think is at work). Fixing sails, fixing rigging or boat/sail trim is one thing, fixing a bad design is impossible. The other teams may suspect there are issues, but couldn't assume to know for sure, and now that element of uncertainty is removed. Has Dalton just lifted Camper's skirt for them? I wonder if Nicholson is really all that pleased.

In related news, Camper has been running lower and a little faster than the other boats, which put them on the outside of the lift tacking back to the western ice southern max. Are we now always supposed to assume this is boat performance related, or is it they were aiming for a thin spot in the high that didn't materialize? UPDATE: Woah! Tele just dropped south and is now behind and on Camper's line. The probability of proving Dalton's hypothesis just dropped yet another notch.




* The question of whether Botin is "accepting accountability" is separate. That is happening behind close doors, and maybe this is what Dalton is referring to. It is a fair question.

** High enough for me at least to do what Dalton did, not even close to close. He would have to have incredibly good data on all of the different variables of each of the other programs as well as his own, to narrow the issues down to any one variable. I don't see how he could get all of that specific, proprietary information.

[Forza]

I found that Nautiweb interview interesting. I was aware that Camper was configured differently than the others but wasn't sure of why. Important to this discussion may be Botin's remark about maximizing for "reaching and running". This may be the source of Dalton's (excessively public) display of buyer's remorse: he thought he was getting a strong reacher.

Perhaps another quote explains what happened: you don't know until you line up with the other guys. Clearly Sanya is faster than the last time around but the competition has gotten faster yet. If JK won on his designs' reaching ability in the past then it makes sense that he would make his new designs even better reachers, and Botin may have not kept up with the "master reacher". JK may have traded off more upwind and running performance for this. Unfortunately, with the icegate moving further north a design's heavy air running ability may go unrewarded, which will bias results further towards reaching ability, further frying what hair is left on Dalton's scalp.

The issue of keel and dagger position and configuration is perhaps more key than in the past with the daggers being able to generate some dynamic lift on some designs or alternately downforce. We don't know much about the interplay between foils, CG, hull shape, rig design, etc., therefore we are stabbing in the dark with our guesses. Tellingly, there is a tow model behind Botin in the photo. I'm not sure about "plowing" as I think that the designers have begun to shape their ends in ways that may "trick" the flow into thinking it is a longer WL, immersed transoms and round bows that at speed no longer are immersed, no longer plowing. After looking at bow waves for a while, I believe that the flow is either parted cleanly to the side (by a sharp cutwater) or rises up along the stem and then folds. What the boffins are doing with their tools in this area is probably worth knowing.

the boats are generally always planing, waterline length is almost meaningless when going fast.

can't "trick the flow", water is water, hull length is hull length.

weight distribution is another matter that hasn't been discussed though. camper has always looked like it needed its lcg moved aft a fraction or somehow lift its bow. there is a lot of info that goes into a yachts trim, some examples...
- lcg
- structure weight
- keel weight and position
- crew position
- engine position
- provisions weight and position
- ballast (if they have water ballast)
- sail weight and position
- sail drive
- keel lift

as a percentage of overall weight, how much is provisions and sails.

weight is one of those basics of yacht design that needs to be done right. if a designer doesn't have the weight in the back of his mind constantly and a spreadsheet updated regularly, then he is no good. a yacht design is only as good as the weight estimate. if he isn't getting feedback on the structure weight or is completely off the mark with provisions, then it leads the design process down the wrong path.

[Forza]

Nick yor last paragraph is rubbish. You can have two yachts of same weight, same LCG and VCG, same wetted surface, same moments of inertia ~ if the longitudinal prismatic is the only variable, the speed regime will be ( generally)dictated by same ~ weight will have no effect.

[tls]

First, is it "true"? Specifically, is the hypothesis "true" that the Botin design is slower than the Juan K boats on a VOR course?* I would argue that given the data and what we know (the posterior pdf(s) for fellow scientific data-crunchers), the probablility of determining that hypothesis to a high degree of precision** is not yet possible, if it ever will be. There are too many variables and too little data. I could give the Bayesian razzle-dazzle on this, but just trust me, I'm a professional, and you can't know.

I would generally agree that the data are inconclusive for a strict hypothesis test of a non-zero difference in overall boat speed. However, the boats have sailed side by side over thousands of miles on several points of sail. We have quite a lot of data even if you just look at the sections of the race in which a JK boat was within 20 miles of Camper on the same heading (much of legs 2,3, and 4). Thus while we cannot determine definitively if Camper is slower than, say, Puma. We have enough data to be pretty sure that the differences in overall speed between boats are quite small (at least relative to the differences in actual finish times). In other words, the confidence interval -- or credibility interval for those who prefer bayesian razzle-dazzle -- on the differences in overall boat speed is small, even if that interval still includes zero.

[Heriberto]

That is my point. If there is a difference, we already know from the race data that the difference is very small. We also know there are a lot of variables which can create differences that small and you have to eliminate each of them separately then all of them excluding the design collectively. We are also getting into precision and accuracy of velocity and distance measurement.

Or you can just say "Aw fuck it, I can tell it's slow". Which is more of a statement of belief than a statement of fact.

Honk if you have read "Data Analysis: A Bayesian Tutorial". Guaranteed to put you to sleep (does me anyway), but kind of the Strunk and White for Bayesian data analysis.

[corkob]

At the present time Camper holds the 24 hour record for this race so far. If I were Botin I would be very annoyed by Dalton's comments. The race is not yet run and there are many variables in who wins and who doesn't. Dalton's comments show an arrogance which could land him in hot water.

[corkob]

http://www.charterwo...ht-construction

The above article also makes it quite clear that ETNZ were very much involved in the design process. This is apart from the fact that there's no real proof the boat is slow anyway. This guy must be a dickhead.

[Heriberto]

Just watched the Leg 4 doc on Youtube (awesome work by VOR on those btw). CN doesn't mention anything about "Clifford" but does say they have had sail problems they were mum about. Then they broke their #2 (crew work) at a critical point through the trades and lost 5-6 miles a sked for the better part of a day while repairing it. A lot of ground to make up. Then they (and Tele) admit they should have covered Puma to the north like Groupama did. So if he thinks the boat is Clifford, he isn't sharing like Dalton. Wonder what his opinion is on those comments? He'll surely be answering those questions in Brazil now that Dalts has dropped the bomb!

Meanwhile, Cammas was talking about how Camper is "a boat that is comfortable racing next to others". Which I take to mean they have good relative speed and are good with a boat speed contest.

Lots of good info. Read is great in this documentary format, really engaging.

[narecet]

Nick yor last paragraph is rubbish. You can have two yachts of same weight, same LCG and VCG, same wetted surface, same moments of inertia ~ if the longitudinal prismatic is the only variable, the speed regime will be ( generally)dictated by same ~ weight will have no effect.

Yes, generally if weight is the same, then weight will have no effect as a difference between two boats.

[29erNeil]

Then they broke their #2 (crew work) at a critical point through the trades and lost 5-6 miles a sked for the better part of a day while repairing it.

Crew issue? Thought the tack of the sail failed?

[Terrafirma]

Camper are leading this leg at this point and I believe they have sailed all conditions. What will determine where they finish from here will be their own performance, work rates, navigation, boat management etc. If they win this leg and there is a long way to go Dalton will need to eat humble pie.

[Heriberto]

Then they broke their #2 (crew work) at a critical point through the trades and lost 5-6 miles a sked for the better part of a day while repairing it.

Crew issue? Thought the tack of the sail failed?

In the documentary Chris Nicholson said it was 100% crew work issue. It was Puma that had their tack strop break.

[tls]

If they win this leg and there is a long way to go Dalton will need to eat humble pie.

Seems doubtful that any outcome involving Camper winning would result in Dalton eating humble pie. He can just claim that the best sailors in the world won, even with a slower boat.

The only risk to Dalton would be if his sponsors lost confidence in the ETNZ team to deliver wins. Blaming Botin has no downside risk to Dalton. If they don't meet expectations, he can just say that they won't be hiring him in the future. Problem solved.

[harzak]

If they win this leg and there is a long way to go Dalton will need to eat humble pie.

Seems doubtful that any outcome involving Camper winning would result in Dalton eating humble pie. He can just claim that the best sailors in the world won, even with a slower boat.

The only risk to Dalton would be if his sponsors lost confidence in the ETNZ team to deliver wins. Blaming Botin has no downside risk to Dalton. If they don't meet expectations, he can just say that they won't be hiring him in the future. Problem solved.

Dalton comes across as a politician. What he's saying he says for the home audience, in order to secure sponsorship. Sponsorship will be based on national pride in ETNZ, thus the shift of focus, from blunders by the team to blaming the design. "Even in a crap boat they won": it's the essential story of many a classical fairy tale.

If Dalton is smart, he keeps Botin close, and they discuss what needs to be done. After all, both profit greatly from Dalton securing sponsorship. Imagine this bar conversation between Dalton and Botin:

D: "Boat's fast but team's not winning, I've got to blame someone to shift public focus over to someone else. It's gotta be you again, the others won't have it."
B: "Fair enough, as long as you commit yourself to my design for the next VOR."
D: "OK. I'll send over the documents tomorrow."

...

B: "When they ask you if you've talked to me about this, say NO."
D: "Why?"
B: "You'll come across as angry, which strengthens the credibility of your story. Lots of people will argue about you being too arrogant or not instead of questioning the story."

...

D: "Wow, that's smart. I didn't know you were a politician too.

[onimod]

...or ETNZ now think they have enough IP on board to be able to manage the complete process themselves next time...

[needforspeed]

Meanwhile back at the Bat Ranch Camper has been blowing away 3 x JuanK boats all at once, downhill someone said..! So here we have it, everyone is raving on about how fast Camper is downhill.! Even the other boats made comment to this at the start of the racing. Well Mr Botin, that's aweful, you designed the fastest boat downhill, that's just as fast uphill. Humm, maybe that's why it's winning this leg at the moment? So wait on, now we expect that same boat to the fastest boat reaching as well?

Memo to Mr Dalton "The law of physics and hydrodynamics usually suggests a boat cannot be the fastest within a box rule on all points of sail". So Camper is fast, very fast downwind, just as fast upwind, but not the fastest boat reaching. Now that's funny cos the Kiwis would already know that, in fact anyone who knows anything about sailing would also know that, Mr Dalton wants his cake and he wants to eat it too.! Mr Botin, may I kindly suggest you stick to designing boats for owners that have half a clue..!

[Le Shark]

Am I right in thinking that Botin produced the lines, but the structural design was done in house at ETNZ?

Seems ironic that the boat seemed to be proving plenty fast enough to play with the Juan K boats so far on this leg untill a structural failure let them down and they had tio throttle back to make repairs...

[STYACHT]

Am I right in thinking that Botin produced the lines, but the structural design was done in house at ETNZ?

Seems ironic that the boat seemed to be proving plenty fast enough to play with the Juan K boats so far on this leg untill a structural failure let them down and they had tio throttle back to make repairs...

Yes and no. MB is, or was, part of ETNZ as lead designer of their cup v5 boat, their TP52, and their 'Clifford'. He as been quietly (til now) left out of the work for the AC72. So, it is impossible to say whether he is 'responsible' for the lines. Certainly for driving the hull design research. AFAIK, Giovanni Belgrano (choir of angels) is responsible for the structural design, as chief engineer for ETNZ.

[Foghorn77]

If they win this leg and there is a long way to go Dalton will need to eat humble pie.

Doesn't look like that'll be a problem now.

[DtM]

Now he can blame the builders or God.

[Scarecrow]

But he still has to work with both of them.

[onimod]

I'm a bit disappointed in that we might never really know whether the design itself was quick in the heavy stuff or not.
It's unlikely we'll never really know how much the design contributed to, or mitigated against, the structural failures encountered.
Maybe another day in another race.

[supine]

Now he can blame the builders or God.

Getting a bit crowded under the bus...

[thetruth]

Of course he will............and this wanker is trying to win the AC that Sir Russ accepts is too expensive? Good on yah Dalts. 10 years of failure (Med Cup excluded)

Now he can blame the builders or God.

[Indio]

Of course he will............and this wanker is trying to win the AC that Sir Russ accepts is too expensive? Good on yah Dalts. 10 years of failure (Med Cup excluded)

Now he can blame the builders or God.

What's it like having all that cancerous bitterness chomping away at your insides?! Thought about a bungy jump off Sky Tower!?

[thetruth]

Whats it like when the NZ Youth team is cut back because of lack of funding? You like alot of Kiwis have your head up your arse when it comes to the reality of our sport. Can you please explain why we are doing the AC and using old pricks on the Volvo? But hey with the $100 mill Dalts will spend it can only be better for the sport right? So what happened to the knock effect of all the other AC's? Nothing you ignorant prick..........

Of course he will............and this wanker is trying to win the AC that Sir Russ accepts is too expensive? Good on yah Dalts. 10 years of failure (Med Cup excluded)

Now he can blame the builders or God.

What's it like having all that cancerous bitterness chomping away at your insides?! Thought about a bungy jump off Sky Tower!?

[Steve Clark]

You have to look some of the conditions in the NOR. You really can't change much of anything once the boat has been measured. For example you can't move the ballast or do much to change the shape of the boat without violating the "one boat only" rule.
Changing sinkage or trim by 1mm triggers a re measurement. So Camper can't do much to shift the LCG aft
Groupama is set up with more rake than anyone else. It's possible that none of the other Juan K boats could duplicate their rig settings without voiding their certificates. Or at least that's how I read it.

Funny thing to take all this time and trouble, discover that someone with a pretty similar boat is going faster with a few degrees more rake than you, and be unable to modify you tuning in light of what you have found out. And you have to suck it up all the way around the world. Set frustration level to 13.

After the last Volvo, the word on Puma was that she couldn't be caned as hard as Ericson 4. Kenny and crew would fight to get 3-4 miles on the competition but Torben could take a 10-20 mile steps when the wind blew up. Nicko sailed the first art of the race on Puma, and knew all about this. I suspect the thought was to try to keep the advantages Puma had, but make the boat a bit more robust reaching and running. They may have not done enough.

On the other hand, the in house engineering and construction experts, touted as part of the flawless Kiwi part of the program, have saddled Nicko with a detour to Chile to rebuild the bow bulkhead and stringers.

SHC

[Ncik]

Nick yor last paragraph is rubbish. You can have two yachts of same weight, same LCG and VCG, same wetted surface, same moments of inertia ~ if the longitudinal prismatic is the only variable, the speed regime will be ( generally)dictated by same ~ weight will have no effect.

so if the weight estimate is out by a tonne, or LCG out by 0.5m, that has no affect on performance...riiighht

[SW Sailor]

Of course he will............and this wanker is trying to win the AC that Sir Russ accepts is too expensive? Good on yah Dalts. 10 years of failure (Med Cup excluded)

Now he can blame the builders or God.

What's it like having all that cancerous bitterness chomping away at your insides?! Thought about a bungy jump off Sky Tower!?

So what's it like having a hero that engages his mouth in fifth gear while his brain is in neutral ?

Pretty stupid comment any way you cut it, but at least he's consistent, he's done the same thing in the AC.