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Boat Suggestions for Newbie


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#1 bluespruce

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:29 PM

i've been reading the threads for a while. Taking in all i can but hesitating to post as the place can seem a little unwelcoming to newbs. (but it seems like it is mostly in good fun) i figure with the recent Reis incident, now is as good a time to as any to ask a question.

I'm looking to get into sailing and buying a boat for the family. Looking for suggestions on older boats (1980's ish) in the 30' range. Never had any family that sailed. I've never been on a sailboat until a few years ago but it was great.


Random thoughts/criteria:

I've taken a few ASA courses but i claim to know nothing really. Something forgiving would be nice.

The ASA courses were on a J-30 and the cockpit is not conducive to family safety or comfort. i guess i'm looking for the opposite of a J-30. (No offense to J-30 owners, just not kidding myself that the family would be happy on the J-30)

We would likely use the boat on the weekends. Venture out into the lake (Lake Michigan) if the conditions were right. The rest of the time hangout and get away from home and work to relax.

I'm handy, have a workshop and can make just about anything out of wood. Do all my own home repairs/remodeling. i can fix just about anything in a house but am an idiot when it comes to engines. (but i have a trustworthy auto mechanic)

Boats on my short list for the area i'm in and the price range we can afford:

S2 9.2, Catalina 30, Pearson 31-2, Pearson 303, etc

I'll stop here for now and answer any other questions that come up.

Thanks,

Mike


ps. i have no security detail.

#2 Schnick

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 10:50 PM

Not many Pearsons where I come from. Between the Catalina and the S2 I'd take the Catalina. I believe that particular flavour of S2 has internal ballast and also happens to be slow as molasses. If you can find a tall rig Catalina 30 they are actually much better boats than most SA'ers think. A diesel version will hold its value better. Catalina is very good at things like cockpit and galley geometry, which are both important for a family cruiser/racer.

#3 Alpha FB

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:15 PM

Glad to see you will not be needing a security detail, newb, but that doesn't absolve you from the traditional welcome, so fuck off and show us some tits !

#4 bluespruce

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:26 PM

Glad to see you will not be needing a security detail, newb, but that doesn't absolve you from the traditional welcome, so fuck off and show us some tits !


If my wife let me take pics of the tits i'd probably have better things to do then spend hours reading forums.:)

#5 Balder

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:32 PM

I am not sure what "forgiving" means. No boat in this size in going to turn turtle on you or anything - as long as you use ANY reasonable judgement on weather conditions, and NOOB's - usually - err on the side of caution. Any boat can have an accidental jibe or a broach that could scare/hurt crew/boat. Some boats may be more or less tender than others (look it up if you don't know what that means)

The S2 is not bad, I don't think it is so slow as someone is saying. sure it's slower than a J or some other boats at that size, but it is MUCH more comfortable the faster boats I can think of. Many are used in club racing all over. I have raced on and against one in bellingham. She won her class for PITCH a few years back - speed is relative.

You have made a good short list. I would add C&C 29 to your list too.

#6 kdh

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:42 PM

Welcome, bluespruce. Spruce have the needles that go all around the twig, right? My sense is that you'll get some great advice here, but not from me.

#7 2slow

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:43 PM

Ranger 33. If you can find one in nice condition they are great boats. Sail very well, point high, they have the look good when you row away factor and they can be found for a great deal. Plus they are pretty forgiving and will take care of you and your family. (I am sorta biased, I really like mine).

Agree on the Catalina 30 tall rig.

#8 Kirwan

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 11:51 PM

You've got a good start. Here are some suggestions:

- Buy a little boat for practice and fun. A Laser or Sunfish, and play around on a lake - Best way to really learn the sailing part.

- Think hard about how much boat you really need - costs go up fast. Many newbies start a bit smaller; the Catalina 27 is the 'chevy nova' of boats - not expensive, pretty solid, well laid out for it's size. To continue the analogy, a Cat 30 is a Caprice, or other big sedan - more bigger than you would think by a 3' difference.

- Remember, it's not just the cost of the boat, but maintainence, slip fees, periodic big costs (bottom paint, new sail, engine, etc...)

- For a first boat, don't get a 'fixer upper'... spend a bit extra to get one that is ready to sail now.

- I'd add Ericson yachts to your list.

#9 Alpha FB

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:11 AM


Glad to see you will not be needing a security detail, newb, but that doesn't absolve you from the traditional welcome, so fuck off and show us some tits !


If my wife let me take pics of the tits i'd probably have better things to do then spend hours reading forums.:)


who said anything about your wife ? ;)

#10 jacrider

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:55 AM

we started with a C&C 30. Not a bad boat, but we went aboard a CS 30. Huge difference - aft cabin, great galley, great sailing boat. We ended up trading up to its bigger sister a CS Merlin (36).

Low maintenance, nice Volvo diesel. Clean rigging. No core in the hull. No or few reports of deck core issues.

Lots on the Great Lakes. Should be under 40K.

#11 steele

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:06 AM

For a family boat in that age range your will have lots of choices. One important issue may be how big is your family. If you have a couple good size kids and plan to spend the night on the boat it is hard to beat a Catalina 30. Big for it's length, the company is still around and is known for suporting the product, and lots of web/owners groups to help you out. If you do not need as much space then you can add Tartan 30's, P30, Newports and on and on.

Speaking as somebody who is updating his 30 foot boat over time, I agree with the above poster about finding a good boat that does not need a lot of work. Even if you can do the work yourself, boat projects can be like house projects, all you want to do is add a half bath, and by the time you are done you have replumbed the whole building and have a new roof. When it comes to used boats it may be more important to find a solid, safe, well maintained craft then focus on a specific model.

#12 valcour

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:17 AM

An S2 9.1 is a great boat. Faster than a 9.2, so you won't find yourself looking for something with more performance after a few years. The S2s are generally well built, but watch out for wet core - like on any 80s vintage boat with a cored hull and/or deck. Definitely get a survey on anything you decide to buy, and make the deal contingent pour acceptance of the survey and sea trial.

+ 1 on the above advice about getting something ready to sail. Don't fall into the false economy trap of buying a project. Regardless of how handy you are, I assure that your family will not find the same enjoyment as you in boat projects (ask me how I know this). Spend time sailing with them instead!

#13 Ishmael

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:26 AM

I am not sure what "forgiving" means. No boat in this size in going to turn turtle on you or anything - as long as you use ANY reasonable judgement on weather conditions, and NOOB's - usually - err on the side of caution. Any boat can have an accidental jibe or a broach that could scare/hurt crew/boat. Some boats may be more or less tender than others (look it up if you don't know what that means)

The S2 is not bad, I don't think it is so slow as someone is saying. sure it's slower than a J or some other boats at that size, but it is MUCH more comfortable the faster boats I can think of. Many are used in club racing all over. I have raced on and against one in bellingham. She won her class for PITCH a few years back - speed is relative.

You have made a good short list. I would add C&C 29 to your list too.


I would certainly buy a C&C 29-2 again, but I wouldn't advise a 29-1 to a new sailor who sails in anything other than light air. Just a little tender.

#14 Gatekeeper

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:31 AM

we started with a C&C 30. Not a bad boat, but we went aboard a CS 30. Huge difference - aft cabin, great galley, great sailing boat. We ended up trading up to its bigger sister a CS Merlin (36).

Low maintenance, nice Volvo diesel. Clean rigging. No core in the hull. No or few reports of deck core issues.

Lots on the Great Lakes. Should be under 40K.


CS30...now we are talking a hard core Great lakes boat.

Also take a hard look at the Mirage boats. They are less known than the C&C's and CS's and as a result are usually cheaper...the Perry designs sail very well, and Mirage built a nice solid boat.

We owned a CS, now we have a Mirage. It's the Mirage by a nose mainly because it sails much better.

#15 dinghydock

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:35 AM

Bluespruce, Any tits will do really...

Catalina 30 is a good choice but as the others have stated, get the tall rig as it will have greater value to you as a sailing boat and better value when you go to sell it. The older ones came with an Atomic 4 gas engine which were then upgraded to Universal diesels. Don't cheap out and get the gas engine. There is value in that diesel that is will become apparent to you as you own it!

S2 9.2 is a good sailing boat with a few one design fleets around. I think the Catalina will be a better boat.

Some of the older Pearsons were great boats but be sure to check the stanchion bases as they were poorly supported and can lead to water intrusion in the deck coring.

The C&C boats are great sailors and have good interiors but not as much room as the Catalina. The 34 might be a good match for you.

Another boat that I have always liked for it's sailing characteristics and interior space is the Cal 33.

The older Tartan 30's and 34's are great too but make sure you get one with a diesel.

These are all boats that you can buy in the $20-40,000 price range.

As stated before, cost of ownership is something that most boat buyers overlook. Check with your local marinas and boat yards and find out how much it will cost to store, winterize and commission and bottom paint each year. Ask them if they allow you to do your own work. Call your local sailmaker and find out how much it will cost for a new main and genoa. Judging by how much you will use your boat, divide by 12 and add that cost to your annual expense. Plan on $500 a year for unforeseen failures, budget in insurance and you will have a good idea of what the real cost of ownership will be.

Good luck, now how about those tits!

#16 Mephisto Cat

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:45 AM

For something a bit smaller, bulletproof, super stiff (non tender), easily singlehanded, forgiving, and thereby super family-friendly; check out the 26' Pearson 'Ariel' (and the 'Commander' - for a HUGE cockpit). There are even ourboard (in a lazarette) models that make engine issues almost non-existent (much cleaner and simple). They are quite popular in Lake Michigan as they can take a blow in stride!

I am a bit biased - but they are great boats for your parameters. Very spacious for the size due to the big keel... and they should be a hoot with your handy skills.

Have a look. - Do a search for the Pearson Ariel association.


- May the pure yacht racer purists flame away... He wants a beginner family boat... (hey the Ariel was the 'fast' racer in tis day!)

#17 Cavelamb

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:22 AM

You've got a good start. Here are some suggestions:

- Buy a little boat for practice and fun. A Laser or Sunfish, and play around on a lake - Best way to really learn the sailing part.


In Lake Michigan??? With a family???

I don't think so...

The Catalina 30. Or, if you have the pockets and the boat presents itself, CS, c&c, ETC.

- IF -

There is no mold or mildew present. (Not a chance, but it's a good bargaining point. )

The engine is in good shape (check with a real marine surveyor)

The decks are solid.

The sails are not more than 5 years old.
(ok, forget that one and just plan on buying new sails)

Sails are what drives a sailboat.
They DON'T last forever. (or even very long if you are honest about it)
And shape really matters - a lot.
More than tits even. Sorta.
And you can't really tell how they work with bagged out Pampers.


DON'T EVEN consider a "fixer-upper" unless you already know what that involves - AND have the skills, tools and time to "fix" it.


And DO rely on a recognized marine surveyor to determine condition of your new love.
(Dit I mention that before?)


And yes, the Ericson 30's are fast and pretty, but have less room below than the Catalina.
(that matters with a family)

But then I've owned several Catalina boats and precious little else...

#18 dyslexic dog

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:03 AM

Well, lots of good advice. A catl. 30 is the chevy impala of sailboats and you will do well to own one. Get a good survey. Find a S2 7.9 and have a solid cruiser/racer/ one design boat that will hold its value.Another good choice.

You are headed in the right direction. Ask the folks where you are thinking of keeping the boat what they think.

#19 Soņadora

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:50 AM

30'er, are you nuts? What's a matter with you!? There's only one boat to get

Baba 30.

Or if you need that extra foot

A Tashiba 31

You're welcome

and we're still waiting for tits.

#20 Tom Ray

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 09:12 AM

Boats on my short list for the area i'm in and the price range we can afford:

S2 9.2, Catalina 30, Pearson 31-2, Pearson 303, etc


I have sailed the first three on your list. The 9.2 is a nice cruiser, and is only slow for an S2, whose other boats perform well for cruising boats. I don't think it's particularly slow compared to a Catalina 30, which is not exactly a speedster. Of the three, I liked the Pearson 31 best by far. As I recall, a decent one cost a bit more than a comparable example of the others, but that's life.

If you already know you're supposed to fuck off and show us tits, it spoils the fun of telling you to do it.

But nothing spoils the fun of posting random tits in a sailing thread. So go ahead.

#21 rodauthor

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:25 AM

I suspect it may be true of all parts of the country . .but here on the west side of Michigan . .there are a few situations where extreme bargains are to be had . .I personally found one such value last year with the Pearson 323 that I now own . .and I know of a Hunter 33.5 that is in a similar situation . .so you might dig in and search what is local . .because of your interest in the Pearson 31-2 . .I suspect you are only 40 miles south of me . . Good Luck

#22 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:40 AM

First - Welcome. You still owe us tits.

You are starting on a great quest. The "30'er" range is somewhat daunting, particularly with the explosion of boats built later in that decade. If you can find copies of "Sailing Designs" by Robert Perry, volumes 1-4 cover just about any boat that would interest you that was built before 1994. Sailing magazine archives here will work but are a poor second to the actual books. with those, you can look and compare the designs with commentary from an unbiased (OK, sometimes opinionated) and talented reviewer.

The range of 30'ers is huge and you have already identified the differences in volume, accommodation, sailing qualities and will need to fit into your decision. The advice to "sail a little boat first" is pretty sound, but you sound ready to take the plunge. Do find the time to get into a dinghy or day-sailor for some lessons as the feedback is pretty quick and you'll learn very quickly some of the finer points of trim, balance, etc.

Some random thoughts:

What features are important to you and your family? Sailing performance(all monohull sailboats are slow by definition) Enclosed head? Galley? Refrigeration? Private sleeping accommodations? Spaciousness of the layout? Some of the 30 foot class tried to go for the "sleeps 8" approach. None succeeded.

Look for a boat that was a success. It will have a following, owner's group, parts availability and a history with folks who can advise you. Hard to beat a Catalina 30 in that regard. Over 6,000 built and a 38 year history of production. Fit out changed over the years and you can almost dial in a price, condition and features. IMHO Hunters of that vintage didn't tend to age very well but I'm a salt water sailor and fresh water examples may have fared better. The sheer range of C&C, Sabre, Cal, Pearson, O'Day, Ranger, S2 and many others will give you tons of choice, few of them bad.

Walk the docks. Owners love to brag about their boats. Tell somebody "That's a great looking boat. I'm in the market for a boat in the 30 foot range. Can you tell me about yours?" You'll likely get invited aboard and possibly get invited for a sail. Do some weeding out and then find a broker that you like. You are more than a tire kicker so don't be shy about asking to see some boats.

As has been said several times. Stay away from projects.

#23 Gatekeeper

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:49 PM

It has been my experience that 30' is the tipping point at which the design can offer a nice combination of space, comfort, safety and fun, and as stated the 80's brought a lot of these nice boats into the market.

There are boats under 30' that can offer this, but they are fewer and always look to my eye like there is too much jammed in too short a hull.

You have a huge advantage of buying on the Great lakes. Boats that have spent their lives on the fresh water seas can be considered to only be half as old as they would seem to be as they are on the hard, (and drying out) for 50% of the year. And the fresh water is a great added bonus. Virtually EVERY part of the boat is better off for having led a fresh water existence.

If I was starting this search I would begin with the CS30...decide what you like and dislike, then begin to refine your list...this site has always been a nice jumping off point...

http://sailquest.com...els/models3.htm

#24 SemiSalt

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:42 PM

Most of the suggestions above seem pretty reasonable, especially the tall rig Catalina 30.

I would put more emphasis on the Tartan 30 and later Tartan models in 28-33 foot size. They were built tough and have a traditional cruising interior. Personally I think the Tartan 30 is one of the great designs.

Lots of details on the C&C boats were done with racing in mind. They might annoy a newbie cruiser.

The Pearson 30's are now too old for me to recommend, although not too old or out of date for someone who knows what he is getting into. The later Pearson models are good boats so far as I know. I had some friends with a very nice Pearson 28, and they traded up to an older 35er due to lack of space.

As a Hunter owner, let me say a word or two about them. I don't know if the Great Lakes are infested with them or not. We certainly see a lot of them here on LIS. My view is that some Hunters are a reasonable choice for some sailors. In everybody's opinion, they are not a viable option as a serious (or semi-serious) racing boat, and IMHO, most of the models are not viable as passage-making boats (since the berths are not well laid out for sleeping while underway). They are suitable for daysailing and marina-hopping. Hunters of different eras seem to have been designed for different markets, and have different appeal. Boats of different sizes designed and built at the same time may have different virtues and vices. For example, my 1989 28 has a 2-cyl Yanmar that is just fine. However, they put the very same engine in the contemporary 33er that weighs considerably more and has a lot more windage. That boat is certainly underpowered. All in all, there might be a Hunter model that is good for you, but don't take a general recommendation.

There are plenty of Sabre 28's and 30's for sale on the East Coast.

#25 cbm

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:56 PM

I had a Catlina 28 mk II and we cruised the crap out of the boat. It was a bit slow, despite the tall rig, but other than that, it was perfect for what we wanted to do ( weekend to 5 day cruises around LIS) It was roomy, comfortable and easy to handle single or double handed. I think one of these might suit you perfectly.

#26 PNW Matt B

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:13 PM

I have to throw in a bid for the Islander 28, although there aren't a lot of them in the midsection of the country (but there are a few around Lake Michigan.) Good family cruiser, lots of room below well laid out, good sailing boat, forgiving for someone figuring out the ropes but exciting enough to be a lot of fun for a good long while.

I'm going to go against the crowd a little bit on projects. If you were honest in your assessment of your skills, it's not an absolutely horrible idea - as long as you go with something that's a relatively small project. Say, a boat with a solid hull, rig, and mechanical systems, but the interior is worn out - that knocks a lot off the price and repairing it would be almost entirely woodworking. If the project can be done in the water and mixed with sailing, it will save on the purchase price (not on the total cost, just the initial purchase price) and it can be a great way to get to know other sailors. Every sailor loves to see an old boat being brought back to life, which means they love the people doing it.

Beer helps, too.

And how about those tits?

#27 Soņadora

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:19 PM

of course I was (only slightly) kidding about the Baba/Tashiba thing.

Honestly, a C30 was what I had been considering before the Baba. I'm a Catalina fan and they've only had one real turd IMO (Catalina 250).

We rafted up with one in Friday Harbor one 4th of July. I was envious of the space below vs. a Baba. The difference is that a Baba has an incredible amount of storage. Where the Catalina settee goes almost all the way to the hull, The Baba has some pretty substantial lockers which squeezes the saloon a bit.

However, there's no comparison when it comes to the forward love nest on a Baba where one can see actual tits

y'know, the kind of tits one would post on the Cruising Anarchy forum. Especially one who is a newb looking for FREE boat advice.

#28 Ajax

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:45 PM

Most of the suggestions above seem pretty reasonable, especially the tall rig Catalina 30.

I would put more emphasis on the Tartan 30 and later Tartan models in 28-33 foot size. They were built tough and have a traditional cruising interior. Personally I think the Tartan 30 is one of the great designs.

Lots of details on the C&C boats were done with racing in mind. They might annoy a newbie cruiser.

The Pearson 30's are now too old for me to recommend, although not too old or out of date for someone who knows what he is getting into. The later Pearson models are good boats so far as I know. I had some friends with a very nice Pearson 28, and they traded up to an older 35er due to lack of space.

As a Hunter owner, let me say a word or two about them. I don't know if the Great Lakes are infested with them or not. We certainly see a lot of them here on LIS. My view is that some Hunters are a reasonable choice for some sailors. In everybody's opinion, they are not a viable option as a serious (or semi-serious) racing boat, and IMHO, most of the models are not viable as passage-making boats (since the berths are not well laid out for sleeping while underway). They are suitable for daysailing and marina-hopping. Hunters of different eras seem to have been designed for different markets, and have different appeal. Boats of different sizes designed and built at the same time may have different virtues and vices. For example, my 1989 28 has a 2-cyl Yanmar that is just fine. However, they put the very same engine in the contemporary 33er that weighs considerably more and has a lot more windage. That boat is certainly underpowered. All in all, there might be a Hunter model that is good for you, but don't take a general recommendation.

There are plenty of Sabre 28's and 30's for sale on the East Coast.


You take that back! Mine is 39 years young, and she's one of the oldest! :angry: ;)

#29 A_guy_in_the_Chesapeake

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 02:57 PM


Glad to see you will not be needing a security detail, newb, but that doesn't absolve you from the traditional welcome, so fuck off and show us some tits !


If my wife let me take pics of the tits i'd probably have better things to do then spend hours reading forums.:)


Just tell her that we asked nicely, and said "Please!" - it'll work - I'm sure of it!

#30 Bob Perry

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:33 PM

We are a loose bunch here but we do have our rules.

#31 Kirwan

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:35 PM


You've got a good start. Here are some suggestions:

- Buy a little boat for practice and fun. A Laser or Sunfish, and play around on a lake - Best way to really learn the sailing part.


In Lake Michigan??? With a family???

I don't think so...



Well, many years ago, I was on South Manitou island - it's about 8 miles off Traverse Bay; Buddy and I were camping, having been dropped off from a Cat 27, and on a day with 3-4' waves, a guy made the passage from the 'mainland' in a sunfish with his wife, 2 kids, camping gear and a dog - the wife was stationed *ahead* of the mast.... on a SUNFISH!. I saw it with my own two eyes, and watched him crawl ashore and kiss the ground.


But no, I was thinking more in terms of the myriad of inland lakes Michigan has, and cartop launching... I grew up there and had my own sunny. The OP can learn, then teach, and send the kids out on it when they are old enough, and he can stow it in the garage in the winter... That's a lot of fun and learning all for the price of one month's maintainence for a 'big boat'.

#32 PNW Matt B

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:59 PM


The Pearson 30's are now too old for me to recommend, although not too old or out of date for someone who knows what he is getting into. The later Pearson models are good boats so far as I know. I had some friends with a very nice Pearson 28, and they traded up to an older 35er due to lack of space.

You take that back! Mine is 39 years young, and she's one of the oldest! :angry: ;)

Ajax, calm down, he didn't mean it...

Men have ages; women have birthdays. And boats, as we all know, are just like women in every respect - expensive, needy, in constant need of work and attention, and quick to dump your ass if not handled properly. Plus few men understand them.

#33 Ajax

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:07 PM



The Pearson 30's are now too old for me to recommend, although not too old or out of date for someone who knows what he is getting into. The later Pearson models are good boats so far as I know. I had some friends with a very nice Pearson 28, and they traded up to an older 35er due to lack of space.

You take that back! Mine is 39 years young, and she's one of the oldest! :angry: ;)

Ajax, calm down, he didn't mean it...

Men have ages; women have birthdays. And boats, as we all know, are just like women in every respect - expensive, needy, in constant need of work and attention, and quick to dump your ass if not handled properly. Plus few men understand them.


I know, I was just razzing him. He's certainly entitled to his opinion, and even I admit that P30's are getting long in the tooth. However, she's way younger than my old Coronado!

#34 SemiSalt

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:13 PM

The Pearson 30's are now too old for me to recommend,


You take that back! Mine is 39 years young, and she's one of the oldest! :angry: ;)


Alex, I put this part in just for you:

...although not too old or out of date for someone who knows what he is getting into.



#35 Bruce T. Shark

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 04:24 PM

[/quote]

I know, I was just razzing him. He's certainly entitled to his opinion, and even I admit that P30's are getting long in the tooth. However, she's way younger than my old Coronado!
[/quote]

Ya know Ajax, you coulda been a contender, a Real Pearson owner, the Owner of a MIGHTY PEARSON 30...but with that comment you will never be more than a sailor...oh well...

Son, you just let a nation down with that comment...

Pearsons Rule and everyone else Drools!!!!!


I was putting about 800 miles a year doing deliveries on Hull 393 when she was 25 years old...








GRINNING AND DUCKING!

#36 bluespruce

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:09 AM

I have not fogotten the requirement. i just asked, real nice even, and got the look. The look is not good....

just wasted 20 minutes typing strange word combinations in Google Images. Somewhat disturbing...

here's my try at the requirement.

Please don't make me go back to Google images. There are strange things in there that will haunt me when i try to go to sleep tonight.

Attached Files



#37 bluespruce

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:12 AM

we started with a C&C 30. Not a bad boat, but we went aboard a CS 30. Huge difference - aft cabin, great galley, great sailing boat. We ended up trading up to its bigger sister a CS Merlin (36).

Low maintenance, nice Volvo diesel. Clean rigging. No core in the hull. No or few reports of deck core issues.

Lots on the Great Lakes. Should be under 40K.


My dumb question: Looks like most of the CS's are for sale in Canada. is it a hassle to buy in Canada and bring to the US? Taxes? Registration? Duty? Etc.

#38 bluespruce

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:26 AM

I have to throw in a bid for the Islander 28, although there aren't a lot of them in the midsection of the country (but there are a few around Lake Michigan.) Good family cruiser, lots of room below well laid out, good sailing boat, forgiving for someone figuring out the ropes but exciting enough to be a lot of fun for a good long while.

I'm going to go against the crowd a little bit on projects. If you were honest in your assessment of your skills, it's not an absolutely horrible idea - as long as you go with something that's a relatively small project. Say, a boat with a solid hull, rig, and mechanical systems, but the interior is worn out - that knocks a lot off the price and repairing it would be almost entirely woodworking. If the project can be done in the water and mixed with sailing, it will save on the purchase price (not on the total cost, just the initial purchase price) and it can be a great way to get to know other sailors. Every sailor loves to see an old boat being brought back to life, which means they love the people doing it.

Beer helps, too.

And how about those tits?



I'm trying hard to resist the urge to buy a fixer-upper. i like fixing things but i'm also realistic in that it takes time and money. My house remodel projects usually go over budget by 50% and take twice as long to complete. They used to take 3 times as long to complete but now i double what i think it will take just so i am a little closer in the end.

The idea of "updating" things like the interior is OK to me for the reasons you stated above. I can look past the plaid cushions but i'm not going to kid myself into thinking i can undertake fixed a wet core.

Thanks.

#39 Ishmael

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:36 AM

I have not fogotten the requirement. i just asked, real nice even, and got the look. The look is not good....

just wasted 20 minutes typing strange word combinations in Google Images. Somewhat disturbing...

here's my try at the requirement.

Please don't make me go back to Google images. There are strange things in there that will haunt me when i try to go to sleep tonight.


You're doing it wrong.

Like this:

Posted Image

Minus that nasty butterfly.

#40 wmbwalker

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:05 AM

Another good choice to get going is a Cape Dory. As Carl Alberg said, they are boats a guy can take his family out in without scaring the bejeesus out of them. The Cape Dory owners assoc is also a great resource.

#41 Solen

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:26 AM

Keep the draft to < 5 foot - dredging is done when the folks with 6 foot keels can't get in and out any more. We sailed Solen from Milwaukee to the Apostle islands and the small harbors don't have the budget for dredging unless they MUST.
You must get an independent surveyor. Brokers NEVER give out the names of independent surveyors. Ask here or in the phone book, delete the ones the brokers like.
It used to be you could hire Bob Perry or Ted Brewer for consultation, you probably still can. They can save you thousand or at minimum get you a boat that can do what you need. When they tell you their fee say "that sound great, when can we start"
There is no wind on the Great Lakes in July (mid summer) the Catalina Tall Rig is good Advise - and the boats are practical and family friendly - even for full bodied people.
Boats from before ~1990 are subject to wet coring if through-deck/hull fitting have not been re-bedded.
If you see a Nonsuch 26 or 30 or a Freedom 28, 30, 32 (Gary Mull) or a Freedom 32 (Hoyt) take a look - they all sail well and are perfect family boats because you can single hand them while the wife reads and the rug-rats play, The Mull Freedom's are nor racers but they are agile and fast considering the sail area and rig. The older Freedoms are likely to have some balsa core leaks/moisture-problems so a good survey is key. If they have large wet spots RUN AWAY.

Keep in mind that some of the men you meet here were driven to sea by rough childhoods or traumatic childhood experiences.

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#42 SpongeDeckSquareFoil

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:42 AM


I have not fogotten the requirement. i just asked, real nice even, and got the look. The look is not good....

just wasted 20 minutes typing strange word combinations in Google Images. Somewhat disturbing...

here's my try at the requirement.

Please don't make me go back to Google images. There are strange things in there that will haunt me when i try to go to sleep tonight.


You're doing it wrong.

Like this:

Posted Image

Minus that nasty butterfly.


She's also got that annoying "second toe longer than the big toe" thing. Not a deal breaker, but still.
Other parts are nice, though.

For the OP, use this pic as a learning experience to see why to avoid teak decks.

#43 Soņadora

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:02 AM

1332470569[/url]' post='3639880']

1332466574[/url]' post='3639788']

1332464966[/url]' post='3639742']
I have not fogotten the requirement. i just asked, real nice even, and got the look. The look is not good....

just wasted 20 minutes typing strange word combinations in Google Images. Somewhat disturbing...

here's my try at the requirement.

Please don't make me go back to Google images. There are strange things in there that will haunt me when i try to go to sleep tonight.


You're doing it wrong.

Like this:

Posted Image

Minus that nasty butterfly.


She's also got that annoying "second toe longer than the big toe" thing. Not a deal breaker, but still.
Other parts are nice, though.

For the OP, use this pic as a learning experience to see why to avoid teak decks.


I'm glad you mentioned the teak decks. I feel I'm an expert in the field.
And I even know a thing or two about teak decks.

#44 Kirwan

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:08 AM

I need to update my recommendation....

The reason for getting a Sunfish or Laser is so that you can go sailing when the fixer upper is still sitting in your driveway in pieces.

#45 PNW Matt B

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:22 AM

I'm trying hard to resist the urge to buy a fixer-upper. i like fixing things but i'm also realistic in that it takes time and money. My house remodel projects usually go over budget by 50% and take twice as long to complete. They used to take 3 times as long to complete but now i double what i think it will take just so i am a little closer in the end.

The idea of "updating" things like the interior is OK to me for the reasons you stated above. I can look past the plaid cushions but i'm not going to kid myself into thinking i can undertake fixed a wet core.

Thanks.

Well, at risk of working against your self-discipline, if your home improvement projects go well enough to only take twice as long as your estimates and 50% over budget, you can easily handle a recore or similar rebuild - it's just a matter of taking a deep breath and reminding yourself that no matter what you do, it can be corrected. And asking lots of questions.

However! Don't do that. You need a boat you can safely sail right away. Projects are okay, if they don't interfere with being able to sail, won't discourage your family, and will save you enough on the initial investment to be able to move forward on boat ownership more easily.

#46 Soņadora

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:33 AM


I'm trying hard to resist the urge to buy a fixer-upper. i like fixing things but i'm also realistic in that it takes time and money. My house remodel projects usually go over budget by 50% and take twice as long to complete. They used to take 3 times as long to complete but now i double what i think it will take just so i am a little closer in the end.

The idea of "updating" things like the interior is OK to me for the reasons you stated above. I can look past the plaid cushions but i'm not going to kid myself into thinking i can undertake fixed a wet core.

Thanks.

Well, at risk of working against your self-discipline, if your home improvement projects go well enough to only take twice as long as your estimates and 50% over budget, you can easily handle a recore or similar rebuild - it's just a matter of taking a deep breath and reminding yourself that no matter what you do, it can be corrected. And asking lots of questions.

However! Don't do that. You need a boat you can safely sail right away. Projects are okay, if they don't interfere with being able to sail, won't discourage your family, and will save you enough on the initial investment to be able to move forward on boat ownership more easily.



agreed

get a boat that needs work, but is still sailable. Sail for 10 years so you build up a sort of addiction to it. Then, take a season or two off and do a full refurb.

That will really get you yearnin' for some sail time!

#47 PNW Matt B

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 03:53 AM

Then, take a season or two off and do a full refurb.

That will really get you yearnin' for some sail time!

Sing it brother, the jitters are getting so bad I'm having trouble making my cuts straight on the woodwork...

#48 Soņadora

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 04:10 AM


Then, take a season or two off and do a full refurb.

That will really get you yearnin' for some sail time!

Sing it brother, the jitters are getting so bad I'm having trouble making my cuts straight on the woodwork...



Dude I have it so bad that for every tick of the second hand I hear, that's 200...

200 what you say? 200 revolutions of the RO sander that AREN'T happening because I'm sitting here.

#49 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

Problem with a fixer up boat is everthing you put into it comes at retail price and full labor (your labor in opportunity cost or the yard's at 75-100/hr. The added value to the boat is in the 10% of cost range. A boat that has been maintained and refurbed as needed comes to you at a depreciated cost and you sail right away.

A project of well defined scope or two is OK. Good bargaining point and can get you more boat for your money up front. If you find "the boat" and it's a fixer upper, just know going in that your hobby for a few years will not be sailing. It will be refurbing a boat.

#50 jacrider

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:40 AM


we started with a C&C 30. Not a bad boat, but we went aboard a CS 30. Huge difference - aft cabin, great galley, great sailing boat. We ended up trading up to its bigger sister a CS Merlin (36).

Low maintenance, nice Volvo diesel. Clean rigging. No core in the hull. No or few reports of deck core issues.

Lots on the Great Lakes. Should be under 40K.


My dumb question: Looks like most of the CS's are for sale in Canada. is it a hassle to buy in Canada and bring to the US? Taxes? Registration? Duty? Etc.


I don't think so. Under NAFTA, there should be no duty. You would have to pay local taxes as you would buying any boat. Registration is no different.

I am going though this right now going the other way. It has been pretty easy.

Any decent broker will also do all of this for you.

Quite simply, buy the boat, have the broker do the tax component and sail it home.

#51 bljones

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:44 PM

Bluespruce, welcome. Thank you for your attempt at titpics. That pic was like sailing on a bayliner buccaneer- sure it's better than nothing, but the bar here is higher than "better than nothing."

We can keep tossing boat suggestions at you like over-caffeinated epileptic chimpanzees on meth fling poo, or you can throw us a bone:
What is your absolute, not a penny more, my wife will kill me for spending this much, drop dead budget for the purchase?

If you've got $5 K your options are going to be different than if you have $50K

#52 Slick470

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 02:30 PM

Bluespruce, take Son's advice. A boat that is sailable that needs updating is much better than a boat that needs a ton of work to be sailable. We bought a great boat for a great deal because it needs a serious bottom job, updated electronics, and a fair amount of cosmetic work. None of these things keep us from sailing or enjoing the boat and the important stuff was already in good shape.

All boats are projects, even new ones. Find something that has been well maintained but needs updating and some tlc and you might find a screaming deal. Especially since you are new at this, get a survey, walk the docks and ask locals for surveyor recommendations.

The important thing is to get out there on the water with the family. Good luck in your search.

#53 PNW Matt B

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 04:33 PM

Problem with a fixer up boat is everthing you put into it comes at retail price and full labor (your labor in opportunity cost or the yard's at 75-100/hr. The added value to the boat is in the 10% of cost range. A boat that has been maintained and refurbed as needed comes to you at a depreciated cost and you sail right away.

A project of well defined scope or two is OK. Good bargaining point and can get you more boat for your money up front. If you find "the boat" and it's a fixer upper, just know going in that your hobby for a few years will not be sailing. It will be refurbing a boat.

Yes, yes, it's a poor financial choice. We all know this. Even bluespruce knows this, he said so.

That's not the point. There's a difference between "this will save you money overall" versus "this lowers the initial investment". For a lot of people, particularly people with relatively little discretionary income, the latter is far more important than the former. The parts you put in may come at retail - although I haven't paid full retail for very many items I've put into my refit, but whatever - but your time and labor are yours to contribute instead of paying someone else. If you're cash-poor or even just cash-limited but you have the skills and are willing to spend the time, it can make the difference between the boat you want and a boat you won't enjoy or no boat at all because you can't afford it.

I couldn't have afforded to buy Firefly in great condition and equipped the way she is now. I've spent far more than it would have cost *over the years* since I bought her, but I've never had to shell out big dollar amounts all at once, either. That it isn't the best choice from a cash value perspective doesn't mean it's always the wrong one.

#54 Steam Flyer

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 06:13 PM

Bluespruce, welcome. Thank you for your attempt at titpics. That pic was like sailing on a bayliner buccaneer- sure it's better than nothing, but the bar here is higher than "better than nothing."

... ...
What is your absolute, not a penny more, my wife will kill me for spending this much, drop dead budget for the purchase?

If you've got $5 K your options are going to be different than if you have $50K


From a guy who was advocating building Herreshoff designs from floor underlayment, that's a very good point.

But I just stepped into this thread to see the pics

FB- Doug

#55 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 07:47 PM


Problem with a fixer up boat is everthing you put into it comes at retail price and full labor (your labor in opportunity cost or the yard's at 75-100/hr. The added value to the boat is in the 10% of cost range. A boat that has been maintained and refurbed as needed comes to you at a depreciated cost and you sail right away.

A project of well defined scope or two is OK. Good bargaining point and can get you more boat for your money up front. If you find "the boat" and it's a fixer upper, just know going in that your hobby for a few years will not be sailing. It will be refurbing a boat.

Yes, yes, it's a poor financial choice. We all know this. Even bluespruce knows this, he said so.

That's not the point. There's a difference between "this will save you money overall" versus "this lowers the initial investment". For a lot of people, particularly people with relatively little discretionary income, the latter is far more important than the former. The parts you put in may come at retail - although I haven't paid full retail for very many items I've put into my refit, but whatever - but your time and labor are yours to contribute instead of paying someone else. If you're cash-poor or even just cash-limited but you have the skills and are willing to spend the time, it can make the difference between the boat you want and a boat you won't enjoy or no boat at all because you can't afford it.

I couldn't have afforded to buy Firefly in great condition and equipped the way she is now. I've spent far more than it would have cost *over the years* since I bought her, but I've never had to shell out big dollar amounts all at once, either. That it isn't the best choice from a cash value perspective doesn't mean it's always the wrong one.


Matt,

No offense intended. At 57 and after a couple of health scares, I put a higher value on my own time than I did when I was 30. I don't consider my own labor "free" but a precious resource I spend one way or another. When I was 30 and bought my first cruising boat, I did everything myself because my labor was "free" and I couldn't afford the boat and pay yard rates at the same time. Now I decide on a project by project basis.

I have no quarrel with those who take on project boats (or cars or houses or...) as long as they understand the size of the project and and the commmittment it will demand. For someone just getting into sailing, a project boat (as opposed to one in need of some updating) can become a quagmire very quickly. For a new sailor, I'd recommend something in reasonably good shape sized to the budget so that they can get the family addicted to sailing.

#56 Kirwan

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:35 PM

Matt,

No offense intended. At 57 and after a couple of health scares, I put a higher value on my own time than I did when I was 30. I don't consider my own labor "free" but a precious resource I spend one way or another. When I was 30 and bought my first cruising boat, I did everything myself because my labor was "free" and I couldn't afford the boat and pay yard rates at the same time. Now I decide on a project by project basis.

I have no quarrel with those who take on project boats (or cars or houses or...) as long as they understand the size of the project and and the commmittment it will demand. For someone just getting into sailing, a project boat (as opposed to one in need of some updating) can become a quagmire very quickly. For a new sailor, I'd recommend something in reasonably good shape sized to the budget so that they can get the family addicted to sailing.



Amen brother, and well put.

I'll chime back in, since I sort of started the "don't get a fixer" chorus. Glib follow on comments aside, my reasoning is exactly the same as yours.

But I still also support getting a little cartop dink for practice, and to help hook the kids.

#57 Steam Flyer

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:01 PM

... ...

I have no quarrel with those who take on project boats (or cars or houses or...) as long as they understand the size of the project and and the commmittment it will demand. For someone just getting into sailing, a project boat (as opposed to one in need of some updating) can become a quagmire very quickly. For a new sailor, I'd recommend something in reasonably good shape sized to the budget so that they can get the family addicted to sailing.


Bingo

It's a very strong temptation to look at $XX and say "Let's get that bigger boat, sure it needs work but we can fix it up ourselves & it won't cost much."

Newbies are often told but never believe that the cost of operating a boat goes up exponentially with it's size; and if us old salts (coough) tend to underestimate the PITA-factor of projects then how can they possibly be realistic?

Yep when I was younger I had a long long series of fixer-uppers (mostly racing boats which I bought cheap, spent boatloads of money on, then sold cheap). Now I have zero interest in big boat projects except the junior sailing ones and the possibility of building one from scratch (which is insane but at least I know that). It's very difficult to make good choices when you don't have the experience though!

FB- Doug

#58 bljones

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:35 PM

From a guy who was advocating building Herreshoff designs from floor underlayment, that's a very good point.


I appreciate the props from the guy who buys his oars at the auto parts store.

#59 Steam Flyer

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:00 PM




From a guy who was advocating building Herreshoff designs from floor underlayment, that's a very good point.


I appreciate the props from the guy who buys his oars at the auto parts store.



Cheapest place in town, or for a many a mile around.

Besides, I have several pairs of oars and they didn't ALL come from the auto parts store. Just the cheap ones. I have one pair of lovely balanced sculls that a friend made in my garage (tryna show off, but hey I appreciate it).

But this is also an important consideration- some things you really can save a lot of money on, other things the expensive "marine-grade" stuff is really worth the extra $$ in saved time, saved replacement, and avoided hazard. A newbie won't know what to skimp on.

Shucks I don't know either, really, but I do know what short plain oars cost.
B)

FB- Doug

{eedit 4r typpoze)

#60 bluespruce

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:13 PM

Work was crazy and really interupted my daydreaming time and checking forums.

i have a daysiler on a trailer. It's a centerboard and my thought was to cut my teeth a bit on it and then move up. i've sailed it quite a few times and learned a bit the hard way. Bottom line is that it just isn't a family type of boat. i can trailer and step the mast with a hand but little kids have short attention spans. being couped up in a small boat for a few hours while dad enjoys himself isn't their idea of fun. waiting for the perfect day (not too much wind but enough to be fun) and a weekend day just doesn't come around very much in the summer.

So why get a bigger boat? It's a weekend getaway. Bigger boat with a keel and the ability to reef broadens the number of days i could sail. Bigger boat gives the kids room to roam and discovery or just hang out and lounge around.


My must have list:

Not too tender as i don't want to scare anyone and turn them off forever.
Decent size cockpit that is reasonably comfortable.
Solid construction or at least the parts i can't change need to be solid.
Sailable right away. i want to be able to use the boat. I have enough other projects and i don't need any more big projects.
Updating as time and money allows is fine.
Enough berths to sleep the 4 of us. a few more temporary berths for kids friends would be nice.
6'2" plus headroom.
Berth that sleeps decent for a 6'2" person.
Diesel engine.
Wheel steering.
Roller furling.
A way to cook and a place to crap if away from the slip. Shower not necessary.


My wish list:
Aft double berth to sleep 2 adults. (Hard to find in the 30' range and age i'm looking at)
Swim platform would be nice.


Let's say my budget is $25,000. i'd go up to $30,000 if i don't have to replace big ticket items within the next few years.

Yes, i'd definately have a survey done.


i have other questions about this whole buying process works but i'll stop for now.

Thanks for all the suggestions, i'm researching.

#61 bljones

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:46 AM

S2 9.2 Center cockpit.
Bayfield 29
CS 30.

Any of the above would be in your budget, provide the accomodations you are looking for (the S2 even has a lilliputian bathtub) and are forgiving and enjoyable to sail if not lightning fast.

#62 Ishmael

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:51 AM

S2 9.2 Center cockpit.
Bayfield 29
CS 30.

Any of the above would be in your budget, provide the accomodations you are looking for (the S2 even has a lilliputian bathtub) and are forgiving and enjoyable to sail if not lightning fast.


Yes, but he wants something that sails. A Bayfield 29? Puleeeze. May as well put a laser rig on a 20' container.

#63 bljones

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 03:59 AM

Hey, he said "sailable" And a Bayf 29 is definitely not tender. So it's got that going for it.
Besides, kids and wives dig Bayfields- it's that whole pirate ship character coupled with the biggest head on a sub 30' boat ever that seems to get 'em.

#64 Ishmael

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:01 AM

Hey, he said "sailable" And a Bayf 29 is definitely not tender. So it's got that going for it.
Besides, kids and wives dig Bayfields- it's that whole pirate ship character coupled with the biggest head on a sub 30' boat ever that seems to get 'em.


I refuse to varnish a taffrail on a 29-footer no matter what the kids think. I know lots of people with big heads, I don't need a boat like that.

#65 tigger12

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:07 AM

OK, I may be sleeping on the settee (my wife calls it the floating doghouse) for posting this, but in the interests of balanced coverage...

If your family has not yet been on a sailing holiday, what about chartering for a week first to see if they like the idea?

Yes? Your budget just increased 100%

No? Buy yourself a good set of foulies and have a great time racing with other folks.

T12

#66 Tom Ray

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:58 AM

Work was crazy and really interupted my daydreaming time and checking forums.

i have a daysiler on a trailer. It's a centerboard and my thought was to cut my teeth a bit on it and then move up. i've sailed it quite a few times and learned a bit the hard way. Bottom line is that it just isn't a family type of boat. i can trailer and step the mast with a hand but little kids have short attention spans. being couped up in a small boat for a few hours while dad enjoys himself isn't their idea of fun. waiting for the perfect day (not too much wind but enough to be fun) and a weekend day just doesn't come around very much in the summer.

So why get a bigger boat? It's a weekend getaway. Bigger boat with a keel and the ability to reef broadens the number of days i could sail. Bigger boat gives the kids room to roam and discovery or just hang out and lounge around.


My must have list:

Not too tender as i don't want to scare anyone and turn them off forever.
Decent size cockpit that is reasonably comfortable.
Solid construction or at least the parts i can't change need to be solid.
Sailable right away. i want to be able to use the boat. I have enough other projects and i don't need any more big projects.
Updating as time and money allows is fine.
Enough berths to sleep the 4 of us. a few more temporary berths for kids friends would be nice.
6'2" plus headroom.
Berth that sleeps decent for a 6'2" person.
Diesel engine.
Wheel steering.
Roller furling.
A way to cook and a place to crap if away from the slip. Shower not necessary.


My wish list:
Aft double berth to sleep 2 adults. (Hard to find in the 30' range and age i'm looking at)
Swim platform would be nice.


Let's say my budget is $25,000. i'd go up to $30,000 if i don't have to replace big ticket items within the next few years.

Yes, i'd definately have a survey done.


i have other questions about this whole buying process works but i'll stop for now.

Thanks for all the suggestions, i'm researching.


You're going to need to shrink a couple of inches at least.

#67 bluespruce

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:05 PM

OK, I may be sleeping on the settee (my wife calls it the floating doghouse) for posting this, but in the interests of balanced coverage...

If your family has not yet been on a sailing holiday, what about chartering for a week first to see if they like the idea?

Yes? Your budget just increased 100%

No? Buy yourself a good set of foulies and have a great time racing with other folks.

T12


I've seriously considered this appoach as the "next step" before tossing down a pile of cash on a boat. Kind of like an extended test drive.

Would a charter company let me charter with only an ASA101/103 class and some daysailing experiance? I'm not really comfortable taking out someone else's boat. My own boat would be OK as i wouldn't feel bad (I'd be pissed but pissed at me) about rubbing the piling while trying to dock my own boat but would make me feel bad if i did it to someone elses boat. (i'm terribly responsible) Maybe i could charter a boat for a long weekend and just have the charter company give me a captain for a few days of daysailing?

The other thing we considered was doing one of the week long sailing schools for just me and my wife. Looks like there are some ASA schools that run 3-4 days of class then you get to take the boat on your own for a couple days. But this doesn't get the kids on a boat for the experiance.

#68 bluespruce

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:11 PM


Work was crazy and really interupted my daydreaming time and checking forums.

i have a daysiler on a trailer. It's a centerboard and my thought was to cut my teeth a bit on it and then move up. i've sailed it quite a few times and learned a bit the hard way. Bottom line is that it just isn't a family type of boat. i can trailer and step the mast with a hand but little kids have short attention spans. being couped up in a small boat for a few hours while dad enjoys himself isn't their idea of fun. waiting for the perfect day (not too much wind but enough to be fun) and a weekend day just doesn't come around very much in the summer.

So why get a bigger boat? It's a weekend getaway. Bigger boat with a keel and the ability to reef broadens the number of days i could sail. Bigger boat gives the kids room to roam and discovery or just hang out and lounge around.


My must have list:

Not too tender as i don't want to scare anyone and turn them off forever.
Decent size cockpit that is reasonably comfortable.
Solid construction or at least the parts i can't change need to be solid.
Sailable right away. i want to be able to use the boat. I have enough other projects and i don't need any more big projects.
Updating as time and money allows is fine.
Enough berths to sleep the 4 of us. a few more temporary berths for kids friends would be nice.
6'2" plus headroom.
Berth that sleeps decent for a 6'2" person.
Diesel engine.
Wheel steering.
Roller furling.
A way to cook and a place to crap if away from the slip. Shower not necessary.


My wish list:
Aft double berth to sleep 2 adults. (Hard to find in the 30' range and age i'm looking at)
Swim platform would be nice.


Let's say my budget is $25,000. i'd go up to $30,000 if i don't have to replace big ticket items within the next few years.

Yes, i'd definately have a survey done.


i have other questions about this whole buying process works but i'll stop for now.

Thanks for all the suggestions, i'm researching.


You're going to need to shrink a couple of inches at least.


Huh? Really? I'm too tall to sail/sleep on a 30' boat

#69 bluespruce

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:37 PM

Hey, he said "sailable" And a Bayf 29 is definitely not tender. So it's got that going for it.
Besides, kids and wives dig Bayfields- it's that whole pirate ship character coupled with the biggest head on a sub 30' boat ever that seems to get 'em.


Funny, my wife did say she liked the look of the Bayfield... But it does not appeal to me at all so i told her they have a bad reputation for sinking for no apperent reason.

My fovorite looking boats are the double enders/canoe sterns but i think i'd have to give up too much interior volume and cockpit space in the 30' range. (and they are out of my price range anyways so i'll stop looking at them)

The catalina 30 doesn't make my heart race but it doesn't turn me off either.I like the looks of the Tartans, Sabres, C&C's.

#70 Slick470

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:00 PM

The trick will be finding the headroom you want in a 30, and the few that have it, probably won't have it throughout the cabin. You may find yourself ducking in the head or up towards the v-berth. you may end up adding length for that requirement, which will in turn add costs to everything else. This was a requirement for me and I'm only 5-11, so there were many more options available.

Bunk lengths will be boat specific and literature doesn't always help sorting out which boats meet what you want. Unless others here have good recommendations, you may just have to check out as many boats as you can within your price range and lay down in the bunks to figure out what is comfortable.

Edited for trying to post with my phone... <_<

#71 curm

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

I second the recommendation of the Baba 30, especially if you like wood. Decent headroom and interior volume. Tracks like a train. But you will probably not find one in good condition for $30K.

Cape Dory 30 is too small inside, and so are most of the Arlberg designs. Tartan 33's are also small. Nice boats though.

If you want headroom, find a Mark Ellis boat. In your price range that means an Aloha 32 or Nonsuch 30.


I'd also look at the Allied Seawind II (some ketch rigged, some cutter rigged), the Bayfield 32 and the Bristol 29.9 or 31.1.

Good luck!

#72 opa1

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

There is a Dufour 29 available for sale on E-Bay. I think it is a 1975. Tough good sailing boat. The boat has a wheel, but I personally would convert to a tiller. The boat is in Connecticut, but might be a good buy. Sail her for a year or two, figure out where you're going with sailing, and then sell and get another boat, or just stay with her. You could do worse.

#73 opa1

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:30 PM

There is a Dufour 29 available for sale on E-Bay. I think it is a 1975. Tough good sailing boat. The boat has a wheel, but I personally would convert to a tiller. The boat is in Connecticut, but might be a good buy. Sail her for a year or two, figure out where you're going with sailing, and then sell and get another boat, or just stay with her. You could do worse.

#74 Bob Perry

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:38 PM

Islander 28
Ranger 33
Cal 29
Cal 34
Ericson 28
Ericson 30

Not sure I'd recommend the Baba 30. That's a high performance boat that requires an experienced skipper.

#75 damcoyote

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:16 PM

Pearson 303, has the headroom you require
Pearson 31, both boats close to your price range and you can probably find a well maintained one.

#76 Soņadora

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:58 PM

1332596309[/url]' post='3641845']
Islander 28
Ranger 33
Cal 29
Cal 34
Ericson 28
Ericson 30

Not sure I'd recommend the Baba 30. That's a high performance boat that requires an experienced skipper.


Damn Bob, you're good at this shit. ;)
Spruce, your original thought of a Catalina 30 is probably one you should stick with. I didn't catch how tall you are. The Cat 30 has 6' + headroom. You can probably find a charter company which has one. We chartered a Baba 30 out of Anacortes before sailing (but after buying - a long story) our boat. It really helped us get a feel for it.



#77 Tom Ray

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 07:50 PM



...
My must have list:
...
6'2" plus headroom.
Berth that sleeps decent for a 6'2" person.


You're going to need to shrink a couple of inches at least.


Huh? Really? I'm too tall to sail/sleep on a 30' boat


With rare exceptions, yes. I'm 6' even, and they barely start to give me standing headroom at that size. At around 35' guys your size start to get standing headroom more easily. I recommend hunching over a bit and bumping your head in a smaller boat first. Or finding one of those few already mentioned that will actually clear your head. Another one would be the 1970s Endeavour 32's. Barely meets your headroom requirement and easily within your budget.

#78 bluespruce

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:10 PM




...
My must have list:
...
6'2" plus headroom.
Berth that sleeps decent for a 6'2" person.


You're going to need to shrink a couple of inches at least.


Huh? Really? I'm too tall to sail/sleep on a 30' boat


With rare exceptions, yes. I'm 6' even, and they barely start to give me standing headroom at that size. At around 35' guys your size start to get standing headroom more easily. I recommend hunching over a bit and bumping your head in a smaller boat first. Or finding one of those few already mentioned that will actually clear your head. Another one would be the 1970s Endeavour 32's. Barely meets your headroom requirement and easily within your budget.


Will i be able to find a boat with berths that will be comfortable? That's seems like a necessity.

Standing headroom of 6'2" would be nice but i don't foresee doing a lot of standing in the cabin.

#79 Soņadora

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 08:10 PM

I have 6'6" headroom on Soņadora. Maybe even more. I should check.

Berth is 6'6"

I haven't been on a lot of 30'ers, but of the handful I've been on I've only had do hunch down on one, A J30. And I'm 6'.

#80 Steam Flyer

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 12:16 AM

... ...
Will i be able to find a boat with berths that will be comfortable? That's seems like a necessity.

Standing headroom of 6'2" would be nice but i don't foresee doing a lot of standing in the cabin.


Yes but berths on a boat are different from sleeping in a bed. There will be a certain amount of "getting used to it" although certainly there are boats with more comfy berths than others.

Boat berths are narrow. This may seem a bit claustrophobic, but it's actually good.

Take a look at an older Morgan 30. I don't know what the headroom is, but I'm 6' and a taller friend had no trouble standing up straight.

Here's a heretical suggestion- You might also consider getting a houseboat & a couple of nice sailing dinghies... I mean one-design dinghies, 14'~15', and an arrangement to keep them on the aft deck. You will be a lot more comfortable and do a lot more fun sailing.

FB- Doug

#81 jacrider

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 05:52 AM

S2 9.2 Center cockpit.
Bayfield 29
CS 30.

Any of the above would be in your budget, provide the accomodations you are looking for (the S2 even has a lilliputian bathtub) and are forgiving and enjoyable to sail if not lightning fast.


The CS30 is the only one this list that has any per performance, accommodation and minimal maintenance.

Of his list of requirements, the only one missing is a swim platform. Doing that in your budget will be hard.

Furthermore, most will be freshwater boats, so aging well.

#82 Tom Ray

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:08 AM


... ...
Will i be able to find a boat with berths that will be comfortable? That's seems like a necessity.

Standing headroom of 6'2" would be nice but i don't foresee doing a lot of standing in the cabin.


Yes but berths on a boat are different from sleeping in a bed. There will be a certain amount of "getting used to it" although certainly there are boats with more comfy berths than others.

Boat berths are narrow. This may seem a bit claustrophobic, but it's actually good.

Take a look at an older Morgan 30. I don't know what the headroom is, but I'm 6' and a taller friend had no trouble standing up straight.

Here's a heretical suggestion- You might also consider getting a houseboat & a couple of nice sailing dinghies... I mean one-design dinghies, 14'~15', and an arrangement to keep them on the aft deck. You will be a lot more comfortable and do a lot more fun sailing.

FB- Doug


I think the Morgan is a bit over 6' 2".

I sleep best on any berth that is on someone else's boat. I can't go completely "off watch" on my own.

I plan to implement a version of Doug's heretical suggestion of using a powerboat for a cruiser and am trying to figure out how best to carry our pair of Hobie Adventure Islands. They're fun to sail but can also just be a kayak where that is appropriate.

#83 Greever

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:36 AM

i've been reading the threads for a while. Taking in all i can but hesitating to post as the place can seem a little unwelcoming to newbs. (but it seems like it is mostly in good fun) i figure with the recent Reis incident, now is as good a time to as any to ask a question.

I'm looking to get into sailing and buying a boat for the family. Looking for suggestions on older boats (1980's ish) in the 30' range. Never had any family that sailed. I've never been on a sailboat until a few years ago but it was great.


Random thoughts/criteria:

I've taken a few ASA courses but i claim to know nothing really. Something forgiving would be nice.

The ASA courses were on a J-30 and the cockpit is not conducive to family safety or comfort. i guess i'm looking for the opposite of a J-30. (No offense to J-30 owners, just not kidding myself that the family would be happy on the J-30)

We would likely use the boat on the weekends. Venture out into the lake (Lake Michigan) if the conditions were right. The rest of the time hangout and get away from home and work to relax.

I'm handy, have a workshop and can make just about anything out of wood. Do all my own home repairs/remodeling. i can fix just about anything in a house but am an idiot when it comes to engines. (but i have a trustworthy auto mechanic)

Boats on my short list for the area i'm in and the price range we can afford:

S2 9.2, Catalina 30, Pearson 31-2, Pearson 303, etc

I'll stop here for now and answer any other questions that come up.

Thanks,

Mike


ps. i have no security detail.


Well, I am going to say S2 because I am obviously biased. S2's are generally better built than Catalinas. Internal ballast isn't such a bad thing. Google "Catalina Smile".

What part of Michigan do you plan to sail?

#84 zzrider

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 04:11 PM

Sabre 28. This was my first cruiser; comfortable, well-built, easy to handle, sweet sailing boat. Beautiful stick-built teak interior is cozy but checks all your boxes. Not quite 6'2" of headroom but I'm 6'1" and could stand comfortably in the main cabin .

#85 bluespruce

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 07:38 PM

Well, I am going to say S2 because I am obviously biased. S2's are generally better built than Catalinas. Internal ballast isn't such a bad thing. Google "Catalina Smile".

What part of Michigan do you plan to sail?



My plan was to get a slip in Pentwater. i know Muskegon or Holland would probably be better because there is an inland lake to sail when Michigan is too rough. But we have quite a few friends in Pentwater on the weekends and i just like the small town and closeness of other things to do for the kids.We live in GR so it's not too bad of a drive to get to Pentwater.


There are quite a few S2's around so that definately gives more buying options.

#86 bluespruce

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 07:42 PM

Sabre 28. This was my first cruiser; comfortable, well-built, easy to handle, sweet sailing boat. Beautiful stick-built teak interior is cozy but checks all your boxes. Not quite 6'2" of headroom but I'm 6'1" and could stand comfortably in the main cabin .

Thanks. i'll add it to my research list.

#87 bljones

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:03 PM

De Plane!!! De Plane!!!!!

#88 Willy T

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:29 PM

As some have already pointed out, look at the c&c boats. Theyre fantastic. I really like the 34. I sailed one for a week last year and its a great boat

If you want a little smaller i highly recomend the goman 30. Or even 35 but its a lot more money. The 30 is fast and very comfy

#89 Cavelamb

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:13 AM


... ...

I have no quarrel with those who take on project boats (or cars or houses or...) as long as they understand the size of the project and and the commmittment it will demand. For someone just getting into sailing, a project boat (as opposed to one in need of some updating) can become a quagmire very quickly. For a new sailor, I'd recommend something in reasonably good shape sized to the budget so that they can get the family addicted to sailing.


Bingo

It's a very strong temptation to look at $XX and say "Let's get that bigger boat, sure it needs work but we can fix it up ourselves & it won't cost much."

Newbies are often told but never believe that the cost of operating a boat goes up exponentially with it's size; and if us old salts (coough) tend to underestimate the PITA-factor of projects then how can they possibly be realistic?

Yep when I was younger I had a long long series of fixer-uppers (mostly racing boats which I bought cheap, spent boatloads of money on, then sold cheap). Now I have zero interest in big boat projects except the junior sailing ones and the possibility of building one from scratch (which is insane but at least I know that). It's very difficult to make good choices when you don't have the experience though!

FB- Doug


Good True Word, Doug.

Especially that last part...

#90 sculpin

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:42 AM



... ...

I have no quarrel with those who take on project boats (or cars or houses or...) as long as they understand the size of the project and and the commmittment it will demand. For someone just getting into sailing, a project boat (as opposed to one in need of some updating) can become a quagmire very quickly. For a new sailor, I'd recommend something in reasonably good shape sized to the budget so that they can get the family addicted to sailing.


Bingo

It's a very strong temptation to look at $XX and say "Let's get that bigger boat, sure it needs work but we can fix it up ourselves & it won't cost much."

Newbies are often told but never believe that the cost of operating a boat goes up exponentially with it's size; and if us old salts (coough) tend to underestimate the PITA-factor of projects then how can they possibly be realistic?

Yep when I was younger I had a long long series of fixer-uppers (mostly racing boats which I bought cheap, spent boatloads of money on, then sold cheap). Now I have zero interest in big boat projects except the junior sailing ones and the possibility of building one from scratch (which is insane but at least I know that). It's very difficult to make good choices when you don't have the experience though!

FB- Doug


Good True Word, Doug.

Especially that last part...

I once had a fun conversation with a newbie, he had sailed a bit in his youth and then did a week course at some point. Anyway, he was adamant that the cheapest way to get a boat was to buy a kit of pre-cut steel (to a Brewer design I think) and weld it up, shazam - boat! At which point I think I said I had to go find my wife, and wandered away so as not to spend time arguing with him. Oh, and he had never welded - but how hard can it be???

Ah well. 7 years later, he still has no boat. The realities of kids and work put that dream of home build to death. He periodically calls me and wastes a 1/2 hour talking about some used boat he just looked at, but at least I can support that plan.

#91 Ishmael

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:48 AM

As some have already pointed out, look at the c&c boats. Theyre fantastic. I really like the 34. I sailed one for a week last year and its a great boat

If you want a little smaller i highly recomend the goman 30. Or even 35 but its a lot more money. The 30 is fast and very comfy


The C&C 32 would be a great boat for 2 adults and 2 kids, has a fabulous cockpit, and it sails well to boot. The 34 isn't quite as forgiving and is probably over the price point. A good 32, in this economy, might be affordable.

#92 Greever

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:18 AM


Well, I am going to say S2 because I am obviously biased. S2's are generally better built than Catalinas. Internal ballast isn't such a bad thing. Google "Catalina Smile".

What part of Michigan do you plan to sail?



My plan was to get a slip in Pentwater. i know Muskegon or Holland would probably be better because there is an inland lake to sail when Michigan is too rough. But we have quite a few friends in Pentwater on the weekends and i just like the small town and closeness of other things to do for the kids.We live in GR so it's not too bad of a drive to get to Pentwater.


There are quite a few S2's around so that definately gives more buying options.


I sail out of Muskegon, and live in Rockford.

Send me a PM and we can meet in Muskegon. You can check out my boat, and we can shoot the breeze about used boats. (our boat is stored at Torresens, on a custom trailer)

You are right about Muskegon being a good alternative when things get choppy on the big lake. Comes in handy when you don't want to take out noobs,elderly in the rough stuff. That said, Muskegon isn't as family friendly as Holland, or Grand Haven...

In San Diego I had no problems keeping up with all of those "faster" Catalina 30's. B)

#93 Greever

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:50 AM


I have not fogotten the requirement. i just asked, real nice even, and got the look. The look is not good....

just wasted 20 minutes typing strange word combinations in Google Images. Somewhat disturbing...

here's my try at the requirement.

Please don't make me go back to Google images. There are strange things in there that will haunt me when i try to go to sleep tonight.


You're doing it wrong.

Like this:

Posted Image

Minus that nasty butterfly.


What butterfly? :unsure:

#94 Steam Flyer

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 01:54 PM

... ...
I once had a fun conversation with a newbie, he had sailed a bit in his youth and then did a week course at some point. Anyway, he was adamant that the cheapest way to get a boat was to buy a kit of pre-cut steel (to a Brewer design I think) and weld it up, shazam - boat! At which point I think I said I had to go find my wife, and wandered away so as not to spend time arguing with him. Oh, and he had never welded - but how hard can it be???

Ah well. 7 years later, he still has no boat. The realities of kids and work put that dream of home build to death. He periodically calls me and wastes a 1/2 hour talking about some used boat he just looked at, but at least I can support that plan.


If he's basically a good guy, then it's worth encouraging him.

Of all the dozens of people I personally know who started out by wanting to build a boat, I know of 2 who actually finished the boat & went sailing. One other has built & sailed smaller boats, and looks like he might finish up and do at least some sailing before it's all over.

The vast majority are like 99% of high school football & basketball players, no hope of getting to the big time and the best they can do as years roll by is to forget.

Another thing is that the building of a boat teaches you nothing at all about how to sail a boat. Well shucks, how hard can that be?
:P

Sculpin if your newbie-builder is an OK type why not invite him sailing some time. He needs a little push.

FB- Doug

#95 memopad

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:31 PM

How big is your family? Guy in my club has an s2 7.9 and loves it. He has a couple of younger kids, maybe 10-12 and he and his wife take the kids out for weekend trips all the time. They trailered it down to lake michigan and were somewhere in green bay when the storms came through on their way to wreck the chi-mac fleet. Definitely more of a camping type interior, low headroom, but roomy once you're sitting/lying down. I'm 6'5, I don't even try to look for headroom in a boat and for the most part it doesn't really matter to me. Having a boat you can trailer to new locations for a weekend might be awesome. I watch the guy and his wife raise/lower the mast on the s2 in about 30minutes or less. Decently quick boats too.

#96 Soņadora

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:06 PM

I have to throw my hat in with the S2 also. Always liked the way (most of) them look. Some models are pretty fast. Others not so much. Can't say that I know which was which. They did make one butt-ugly 'center cockpit' model.

When we were a family of 4, we weekended on our Capri 22 for 3 summers and it was a blast. If you're the right height, it has standing head room ;)

Has anyone mentioned O'Day?

#97 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 08:57 PM

I have to throw my hat in with the S2 also. Always liked the way (most of) them look. Some models are pretty fast. Others not so much. Can't say that I know which was which. They did make one butt-ugly 'center cockpit' model.

When we were a family of 4, we weekended on our Capri 22 for 3 summers and it was a blast. If you're the right height, it has standing head room ;)

Has anyone mentioned O'Day?



Mentioned O'Day early on. The 30/31 is a comfy family cruiser but bunks are probably a bit short for the OP. Very much an IOR (or interior) driven rig as the main is very high aspect with a large foretriangle. Decent construction but I think he can find a better match for his budget.

My only question on the S2 is they went out of production in 1987 and never really built a lot of boats. The fact that there are many still sailing and well loved speaks well of the basic design/build though.

#98 Greever

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:03 PM

Regarding S2,s:

Yes, compared to Catalinas, they didn't build as many. But there were about 900+ 9.2 models built. About 500+ aft cockpit's, and 400+ center cockpits.

Few of the Cruising models had cored hulls. For the 9.2 none before 85' had cored hulls, the rest have solid handlaid glass hulls.

Only the head has a liner in it, the rest of the interior is stickbuilt with the bulkheads being glassed to the hull.

The non-skid on every model I have been on will take your skin off with just a slight brush against it. I think this is a good thing, and have never lost my footing while standing on it. Fucking hurts sometimes though, especially on the knuckles!

Lewmar winches, Edson steering gear, Hall or Kenyon spars, Yanmar Engines, most of the gear is quality, and still servicable.


and yes, the 26' centercockpit is an abomination! We finally got to see one up close last Summer, made my boat look great! :lol: :blink: :)

#99 bluespruce

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:06 PM

1332786697[/url]' post='3644341']
How big is your family? Guy in my club has an s2 7.9 and loves it. He has a couple of younger kids, maybe 10-12 and he and his wife take the kids out for weekend trips all the time. They trailered it down to lake michigan and were somewhere in green bay when the storms came through on their way to wreck the chi-mac fleet. Definitely more of a camping type interior, low headroom, but roomy once you're sitting/lying down. I'm 6'5, I don't even try to look for headroom in a boat and for the most part it doesn't really matter to me. Having a boat you can trailer to new locations for a weekend might be awesome. I watch the guy and his wife raise/lower the mast on the s2 in about 30minutes or less. Decently quick boats too.


We have two small kids and no plans for any more.
I kicked around the idea of getting a larger trailerable boat for a while. Still a possibility but for our anticipated use I'm leaning towards something a little bigger. And there is the tow vehicle issue to consider.

#100 Soņadora

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 10:42 PM

funny how they don't stay little. Damn, didn't see that coming!




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