295 replies to this topic

[Innocent Bystander]

For a family of 4, you are in the right range at 27-31/32. If of opposite sex you may find(as I did) a larger boat with room for friends helps as they reach the tween years.

As we've been saying, lots of good choices in this range.

[bluespruce]

Regarding S2,s:

Yes, compared to Catalinas, they didn't build as many. But there were about 900+ 9.2 models built. About 500+ aft cockpit's, and 400+ center cockpits.

Few of the Cruising models had cored hulls. For the 9.2 none before 85' had cored hulls, the rest have solid handlaid glass hulls.

Only the head has a liner in it, the rest of the interior is stickbuilt with the bulkheads being glassed to the hull.

The non-skid on every model I have been on will take your skin off with just a slight brush against it. I think this is a good thing, and have never lost my footing while standing on it. Fucking hurts sometimes though, especially on the knuckles!

Lewmar winches, Edson steering gear, Hall or Kenyon spars, Yanmar Engines, most of the gear is quality, and still servicable.


and yes, the 26' centercockpit is an abomination! We finally got to see one up close last Summer, made my boat look great!

i had to find a pick of the S2 center cockpit 26. Is this what it looked liked from the factory? S2 26 CC

Definately not on my list. I don't know exactly what i like yet. But i now have a good idea of what i don't like.

[Soñadora]

Regarding S2,s:

Yes, compared to Catalinas, they didn't build as many. But there were about 900+ 9.2 models built. About 500+ aft cockpit's, and 400+ center cockpits.

Few of the Cruising models had cored hulls. For the 9.2 none before 85' had cored hulls, the rest have solid handlaid glass hulls.

Only the head has a liner in it, the rest of the interior is stickbuilt with the bulkheads being glassed to the hull.

The non-skid on every model I have been on will take your skin off with just a slight brush against it. I think this is a good thing, and have never lost my footing while standing on it. Fucking hurts sometimes though, especially on the knuckles!

Lewmar winches, Edson steering gear, Hall or Kenyon spars, Yanmar Engines, most of the gear is quality, and still servicable.


and yes, the 26' centercockpit is an abomination! We finally got to see one up close last Summer, made my boat look great!

i had to find a pick of the S2 center cockpit 26. Is this what it looked liked from the factory? S2 26 CC

Definately not on my list. I don't know exactly what i like yet. But i now have a good idea of what i don't like.

yep, that's the beauty.

Someone said, "Bayliner Buccanneer is ugly? Fuck, I can do better than *hic that....getaloadathis baby!" scribble scribble scribble..."here...whadjathink a THAT *hic"

[bljones]

The Converse All Star school of styling. BUT, the 8.0C packs a lot of living space into a relatively short LOA package... at the expense of windage and aesthetics.

There were some truly gawdawful looking boats designed during the 70s.

[Greever]

i had to find a pick of the S2 center cockpit 26. Is this what it looked liked from the factory? S2 26 CC

Definately not on my list. I don't know exactly what i like yet. But i now have a good idea of what i don't like.

Yep, that's the one!


"Different", huh?


BTW, most of the boats recomended, are good old boats, buy the one that tugs at the familys heartstrings, and buy one in the best condition you can afford. Also remember it's a buyers market, lotsa good deals out there.......

[crash]

BTW, most of the boats recomended, are good old boats, buy the one that tugs at the familys heartstrings, and buy one in the best condition you can afford. Also remember it's a buyers market, lotsa good deals out there.......

+1. At the end of the day, the decision should not be based on objective numbers...headroom, berth length, etc. They all should factor, but the decision should be the one you look at and say, "boy, do I like that boat" Then go find the one in the best condition you can afford...

Because there are lots of good old boats out there, there are likely a good number of any of them on the market at any one time. In the long run, its well worth the time and effort and money spent finding the best one. Even if you have to travel to see it, and pay to ship it....

[Boardfun]

We have a 1983 Catalina 30. Is it a Tartan, no, but it is a damn sight cheaper! We bought it after looking for about a year through a similar process as you. Go see some boats and you will know quickly if it resonates. We wanted space, open cockpit, and not expensive, and which was available to sail day one. Important on this last note as we have upgraded sails, added propane, and many fixes but we could sail it right away. Over the four years I have tackled more challenging projects (rebuilt the diesel engine, glassworks, rewiring, among others) but didn't have the mountain sitting in front of me.
We have 2 kids (12 and 16) who always take their friends out - lots of space above and below decks, depending on weather. Lots of headroom and space down below.
We race on Wednesday's with Phrf handicap and have done well in our white sail division. Rigged it for spinnaker this year so looking forward to seeing how we do - newbie crew to spins.
In a nutshell, flexible boat, great support with parts (catalina Direct) and active forums (yahoo Catalina 30 group). The buyers market depreciation will mean that if you sell the boat, you will probably get what you paid for it. Great value for an all around good first time boat experience,
Other boats we looked at included c&c 30, cs 30, Catalina 27. And yes, I love Tartans, and Oysters, and..
Again, kick some tires with your wife and kids and you will find the right boat for you and your family.
Cheers,
James#3256 Catalina 30BreezingDartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

[Tom Ray]

My only question on the S2 is they went out of production in 1987 and never really built a lot of boats. The fact that there are many still sailing and well loved speaks well of the basic design/build though.

There's a little more to that story. They sold Slickcraft and signed a non-compete agreement. Sailboats don't compete with powerboats and there was an energy crisis at the time, so S2 was born.

The agreement expired, and the Tiara/Pursuit boats appeared. They have done well with them over the years, not sure about current status.

A few years ago, they decided to build new 7.9's again. I remember some forum discussion of it. It must not have gone over all that well, or at least nowhere near well enough to justify the distraction from what has always been their main business, powerboats.

Edit to add: just because they're powerboat guys does not mean they did not build good sailboats. Some of us do like both. I have raced on a 7.9 and it's fast and fun, especially for the price. We have a half dozen or so here. I have also had 7.9's beat me on straight time when racing on our old Corsair F-27. Yes, I have a list of excuses for why it happened, mostly the fact that they started in wind, which died prior to our start, but they still beat us. I think I beat all of them on corrected time exactly once, and that was due to an extremely favorable wind shift between their start and ours.

[mrgnstrn]

Bruce,

I don't have time to read all 2 pages of this debate, but let me offer possibly a different view on what kind of boat to get.

Rather than debating the finer points of one boat's design vs. another boat's design, I'd suggest you get a boat brand/model that fits these requirements:

1. LOTS were sold. (possibly even still for sale)
2. LOTS are still sailing.
3. Some sail in your area
4. There is an avid online community/support system for that model/brand

You will find, as a complete newbie, that you have no idea what is "good" or "bad" or "who cares" in any particular design, at least until you own and use a boat for a few months/years.

But, as a complete newbie, you will find that you have to fix things on this boat.

If your boat is the only one in existance, you will have no one to turn to for help in figuring out what to do to fix the __________. And it won't matter how "perfect" the boat design is to matching your families needs.

But if you have a boat that LOTS were sold and still sailing, you have a pretty good chance that somebody else figured out how to fix the _________, and if someone is in your area you can go give a look-see at the fix, or have someone post pics/instructions online. Don't undervalue that support system in making boat ownership a joy instead of a drudge.

My first boat was a Pearson Ariel. Beautiful boat, and if I didn't have a too-large family, would like still have it.
But it was nearly a one-off, with only ~300 built. and only ~50 still actively sailed. and only 2 in my immediate area. And when I went to sell it, there was no like-boat to compare it to.
I should have gone for the way more popular Pearson 26.

The first two criteria up there almost guarantee that the boat is capable and not a pig. Otherwise it wouldn't have sold nor still be sailed. So that is your guide for whether it is a "good" or "bad" boat design. Otherwise, ignore all the blather about "upwind capability" and "specs" and "figures".

I'd say that a few boats fit into the requirements and are reasonably priced:

Pearson 30
Catalina 30
probably a Hunter in the 30's range.

It may be heresy to put Hunter on a list on SA, but let the market sales be your guide.

After a few years, you will KNOW what you want in your next boat. And you will know enough about how boats work and don't work, that you won't need the outside help/community support system. Then you can go find the "perfect" boat for your family.

-M

[U20guy2]

i've been reading the threads for a while. Taking in all i can but hesitating to post as the place can seem a little unwelcoming to newbs. (but it seems like it is mostly in good fun) i figure with the recent Reis incident, now is as good a time to as any to ask a question.

I'm looking to get into sailing and buying a boat for the family. Looking for suggestions on older boats (1980's ish) in the 30' range. Never had any family that sailed. I've never been on a sailboat until a few years ago but it was great.


Random thoughts/criteria:

I've taken a few ASA courses but i claim to know nothing really. Something forgiving would be nice.

The ASA courses were on a J-30 and the cockpit is not conducive to family safety or comfort. i guess i'm looking for the opposite of a J-30. (No offense to J-30 owners, just not kidding myself that the family would be happy on the J-30)

We would likely use the boat on the weekends. Venture out into the lake (Lake Michigan) if the conditions were right. The rest of the time hangout and get away from home and work to relax.

I'm handy, have a workshop and can make just about anything out of wood. Do all my own home repairs/remodeling. i can fix just about anything in a house but am an idiot when it comes to engines. (but i have a trustworthy auto mechanic)

Boats on my short list for the area i'm in and the price range we can afford:

S2 9.2, Catalina 30, Pearson 31-2, Pearson 303, etc

I'll stop here for now and answer any other questions that come up.

Thanks,

Mike


ps. i have no security detail.

Never sailed never owned a boat?

Start small get a Lightning take the family out on short day sails in some calm locations. Sail it for a year or two then go get your big 30footer. You can thank me in a year or two.

[U20guy2]

But just for kicks if you have the Pearson 31 on there you should have the Cal 31 on their also both are dramatically better sailing boats than the Catalina. Another option might be cheaper and more abundant in your neck of the woods is a Ericson 30 which is in the same design family as the Cal 31 and Pearson 31 - but Ericson put more interior furniture in it. Still a good sailing boat but not as quick as the other two. But still a good boat we had one win the Single handed Farallons here in SF a couple years back good sailor and decent boat.

But I still highly recommend you do a smaller boat for a short time and join a local club with a active small boat group so you both learn about sailing and get a sense of what boat ownership is like. Then you can make the call on the larger more complicated boat.

[CyberBOB]

Lots of good boats mentioned in here.

Don't see a San Juan 28 in here. Decent sailor, huge interior volume, standing headroom for someone 6'2", decent build quality, the only downfall is a relatively small cockpit.

[bluespruce]

1337703734[/url]' post='3722899']

1332368971[/url]' post='3637596']
i've been reading the threads for a while. Taking in all i can but hesitating to post as the place can seem a little unwelcoming to newbs. (but it seems like it is mostly in good fun) i figure with the recent Reis incident, now is as good a time to as any to ask a question.

I'm looking to get into sailing and buying a boat for the family. Looking for suggestions on older boats (1980's ish) in the 30' range. Never had any family that sailed. I've never been on a sailboat until a few years ago but it was great.


Random thoughts/criteria:

I've taken a few ASA courses but i claim to know nothing really. Something forgiving would be nice.

The ASA courses were on a J-30 and the cockpit is not conducive to family safety or comfort. i guess i'm looking for the opposite of a J-30. (No offense to J-30 owners, just not kidding myself that the family would be happy on the J-30)

We would likely use the boat on the weekends. Venture out into the lake (Lake Michigan) if the conditions were right. The rest of the time hangout and get away from home and work to relax.

I'm handy, have a workshop and can make just about anything out of wood. Do all my own home repairs/remodeling. i can fix just about anything in a house but am an idiot when it comes to engines. (but i have a trustworthy auto mechanic)

Boats on my short list for the area i'm in and the price range we can afford:

S2 9.2, Catalina 30, Pearson 31-2, Pearson 303, etc

I'll stop here for now and answer any other questions that come up.

Thanks,

Mike


ps. i have no security detail

Never sailed never owned a boat?

Start small get a Lightning take the family out on short day sails in some calm locations. Sail it for a year or two then go get your big 30footer. You can thank me in a year or two.

I own a day sailer (interlake 18) and have learned a lot about sailing. One thing I learned is that it needs to be pretty calm for me to throw my kids in the boat.... Then it's not much fun and the kids get bored.

[bluespruce]

How about a Tartan 33? There is one available within a few hours drive and priced well less than half of comparables on yacht trader. Part of an estate sale and owner/ executor of estate said it was sailed last year. Worth a drive to check out? Any firsthand opinions on this model?
My guess is there is a reason it's priced low but the person selling said they want to move it soon so they can settle the estate. Yes, I'd get a survey, etc....

Bluespruce

[steele]

I have looked at one but not sailed it. Very classic older Tartan shape and look to hull and deck, which is expected as it was an S&S boat. It has much better than average interior quality. I ended up scared off by the strange Scheel keel, a kind of lumpy shoal draft compromise. I know very little about its sailing abilities, but in my area we do not need shoal draft and going with a conventional underbody made more sense. I would be interested in opinions from those who have more knowledge and experience with the keel and boat. The one available in my area was pristine and also a OK deal, not sure if it ever sold. This is a nice write up on the boat,
http://www.tartanown...33profile.phtml, the author states both the the deck and hull are cored, an issue in an older boat. The 33R version would be a good find given the deep fin keel. Tartans are certainly a step up from the Catalina's and Pearson's so it might be worth a look.

[Great Red Shark]

Don't know if you are still reading this but 2 thoughts:

1) recently sailed a mid-80s Sabre 30 that was REALLY a nice sailing cruiser - sailed very well under mainsail alone even.

2) RENT / Charter something similar BEFORE BUYING A BOAT - SERIOUSLY

I would be willing to bet that about 40% or more of boat owners would be money ahead renting a boat like the one they own - even at full retail - than having purchased it. Not that owning a boat is a BAD thing, but the $/time used of so very many boats approaches the ratio of the Space Shuttle.

[bluespruce]

1337738773[/url]' post='3723659']
I have looked at one but not sailed it. Very classic older Tartan shape and look to hull and deck, which is expected as it was an S&S boat. It has much better than average interior quality. I ended up scared off by the strange Scheel keel, a kind of lumpy shoal draft compromise. I know very little about its sailing abilities, but in my area we do not need shoal draft and going with a conventional underbody made more sense. I would be interested in opinions from those who have more knowledge and experience with the keel and boat. The one available in my area was pristine and also a OK deal, not sure if it ever sold. This is a nice write up on the boat,
http://www.tartanown...33profile.phtml, the author states both the the deck and hull are cored, an issue in an older boat. The 33R version would be a good find given the deep fin keel. Tartans are certainly a step up from the Catalina's and Pearson's so it might be worth a look.

It is the sheel keel model. From the review you linked and a Review I found in Sailing magazine ( used boat notebook) it looks look the sheel keel won't point as high. I have no intentions of racing so i think i'm willing to give that up for the shorter draft. In my area a lot of the smaller ports aren't getting dredged as often and lake michigan levels vary, so a little less draft seems like an OK thing to me.
The cored hull makes me a little nervous. I don't want to check it out, like it, then spend money on a survey only to find it has a deal breaking wet core issue. I suppose I could tap around the thru hulls to check those potential problem areas?
The big thing with this boat is that I'm not quite ready to buy. This summer was going to be my looking around and tire kicking summer. Next spring i'd have a good idea of what i wanted and be ready to jump on something that goes on the market. I've looked at a few boats so far and was completely honest with brokers about my time line. (made sure I wasn't inconvienancing them too much since i wasn't ready to buy)
But, if this boat is a good deal and checked out OK with a survey then I could move forward because of the really attractive price. I wasn't planning on sailing a new boat this summer anyways so if it needed a little work and elbow grease I may be OK with just doing that work this summer. At the price they are asking i could put some money into the boat without exceeding my budget. So long as the work isnt too major.....
Bluespruce

[curm]

The Tartan 33 is a good choice IMHO. But the older Tartan I love is the 34 with a centerboard, also an S&S design. I'd also suggest a Bristol 29.9 or 31.1 if you can find one in your price range.

[crash]

I have looked at one but not sailed it. Very classic older Tartan shape and look to hull and deck, which is expected as it was an S&S boat. It has much better than average interior quality. I ended up scared off by the strange Scheel keel, a kind of lumpy shoal draft compromise. I know very little about its sailing abilities, but in my area we do not need shoal draft and going with a conventional underbody made more sense. I would be interested in opinions from those who have more knowledge and experience with the keel and boat. The one available in my area was pristine and also a OK deal, not sure if it ever sold. This is a nice write up on the boat,
http://www.tartanown...33profile.phtml, the author states both the the deck and hull are cored, an issue in an older boat. The 33R version would be a good find given the deep fin keel. Tartans are certainly a step up from the Catalina's and Pearson's so it might be worth a look.

It is the sheel keel model. From the review you linked and a Review I found in Sailing magazine ( used boat notebook) it looks look the sheel keel won't point as high. I have no intentions of racing so i think i'm willing to give that up for the shorter draft. In my area a lot of the smaller ports aren't getting dredged as often and lake michigan levels vary, so a little less draft seems like an OK thing to me.
The cored hull makes me a little nervous. I don't want to check it out, like it, then spend money on a survey only to find it has a deal breaking wet core issue. I suppose I could tap around the thru hulls to check those potential problem areas?
The big thing with this boat is that I'm not quite ready to buy. This summer was going to be my looking around and tire kicking summer. Next spring i'd have a good idea of what i wanted and be ready to jump on something that goes on the market. I've looked at a few boats so far and was completely honest with brokers about my time line. (made sure I wasn't inconvienancing them too much since i wasn't ready to buy)
But, if this boat is a good deal and checked out OK with a survey then I could move forward because of the really attractive price. I wasn't planning on sailing a new boat this summer anyways so if it needed a little work and elbow grease I may be OK with just doing that work this summer. At the price they are asking i could put some money into the boat without exceeding my budget. So long as the work isnt too major.....
Bluespruce

Tarten 33 is not a bad choice at all...and the fractional rig is an advantage to from a family sailing standpoint (smaller gennys/jib & sails better mainsail only than many masthead righ boats). Almost every boat mentioned so far has a cored deck, and better than half will have cored hulls. There are good (design and engineering) reasons to core. So just resign yourself to needing to get a survey.

The general rule of thumb is there is no such thing as a "cheap" or "free" boat. Generally speaking, the cheaper the purchase price, the more work required to fix it and update its gear/sails/etc. There are always going to be more boats coming available, so no need to buy before you are ready, and don't be lured by low prices. Its likely low for a reason! That said, if you like working on boats (more than sailing them) than it might be worth looking into. But you have to like working on them as much as sailing them. Otherwise you'll get 1/2 way thru fixing it, and get tired of it, and never finish, and then it will sit there for years, and you'll sell it for even less money just to get rid of it.

Best advice I can give is set a limit on how much money you are willing to spend, and then buy the best boat you can find for that money. Buying a slightly smaller boat that is well maintained and equipped is a much better move than buying a bigger boat that is not in good shape. Again, there are lots of boats that will fit your basic requirements...so no need to rush out and buy now...and no need to not buy the very best maintained and equipped boat you can find.

Ask me how I know this:blink:

[Steam Flyer]

... ...

Tarten 33 is not a bad choice at all...and the fractional rig is an advantage to from a family sailing standpoint (smaller gennys/jib & sails better mainsail only than many masthead righ boats). Almost every boat mentioned so far has a cored deck, and better than half will have cored hulls. There are good (design and engineering) reasons to core. So just resign yourself to needing to get a survey.

+1 on frac rig
+1 on core... remember, the only reason to not have a cored construction is that you want your boat to be heavier & weaker. 99.9% of problems with core come from prior owners drilling into it & screwing/bolting something in place and not filling the edges properly, lack of caulk/bedding, etc etc. In other words, the problem isn't the core's fault. That said, it's still a PITA to fix other people's mess-ups.

The general rule of thumb is there is no such thing as a "cheap" or "free" boat. Generally speaking, the cheaper the purchase price, the more work required to fix it and update its gear/sails/etc. There are always going to be more boats coming available, so no need to buy before you are ready, and don't be lured by low prices.... ... ... you'll sell it for even less money just to get rid of it.
... ... ...

What he said ^ ^ ^ ^

Smaller & in better condition is a MUCH better deal. Even if you like working on boats, you spend much more money than you think and not spend enough time SAILING. You may enjoy working on boats but your family will not, trust me, whereas if they are introduced to it properly they will love sailing (and hopefully cruising, but take it one step at a time).

You can buy a nice boat in good shape, sail it, then work on it to improve it. It's like falling in love with a pretty girl who is also a good cook and has a rich daddy.

FB- Doug

[steele]

The point about the fractional rig is a good one, I would see it as a plus too. The Scheel keel is also a plus if you are comited to thin water. It may not offer the upwind performance of a centerboard, but is simpler and maintenance free. If it were me I still would want some advice from somebody who has owned one, or perhaps a good test sail in varied conditions.

As to price and condition, you just have to look. Many boats are overpriced for the market now because owners can not stand to part with them for what they are really worth. If this is an estate sale the emotional part may not be in play. It may well be a decent boat that the family just wants gone, or it could be a wreck. Sounds like it is worth a drive to look at.

A final thought, I have only sailed on the great lakes once, but was impresesd how fast the conditions can go from ideal to wild, we get bad weather here too, but usually with more warning. If this boat is in good shape, it will be more solid than the many of the other boats menitoned. Most older Tartans can be considered ocean going boats. I may attract some objections, but for a sailor with less experience and for a family boat, I would rather be on a Tartan 33 in a sudden thunderstorm than an older Catalina or Pearson.

[Innocent Bystander]

I'll be the contrarian. Tartan 33 is a fine design and a good boat but the newest one is a 28 year old orphan. Just over 200 were built. Tartan today has reorganized numerous times and has no allegiance or connection to the older boats. Cored hulls are stiffer and stronger for a given weight and not something to be afraid of, but 30 year old cored hulls will require an extensive survey and every repair or replacement part is probably a one off.

There are have been over 6,000 Catalina 30's produced and you can call Catalina and talk to the designer. Fit and finish kept up with the times so a newer one likely to have more creature comforts than an older one. There is an active owners association and plenty of aftermarket suppliers. Bottom line, they are OK sailing boats with a huge following and a deep and active support infrastructure.

Not the highest performance boat but a decent and honest boat. I'm sure any of these fleet captains My link would be happy to hook you up with a ride and an introduction to the boat.

[Balder]

You can get a Freedom 30 around 30K - in great shape, I know someone who got one <24 mos ago at that price, cherry interior, sound engine. She needed only a macerator pump and new dodger and sail covers coming up.

When you are inside the Freedom 30 is the B I G G E S T 30 you have ever been on. I THINK she has the 6'2" headroom through MOST of the boat (Im 5'11" and didnt have to duck anywhere). Nice galley, refer, hot water, the berth in the quarter stateroom is 5'4" wide at the head.

Deep cockpit, all lines lead to the cabin top (you can single and double reef with out leaving the cockpit) not too tender, easy to single/double hand. No standing rigging, self tending jib.

And I call BS on so many people saying the freedoms are slow. I have sailed the 38 and the 30 extensively and they hold thier own (I freakin WON the local thurday nite cruising class on the 30 last year with a crew of myself and 2 NOOB's)

But they are not a light air boat really. -8 kts she IS slow. My wife and I had a blast out in 30kts, fun and safe. And I took myself and the two NOOB's out and sailed the course on a day they canceled the race at about 25-27 kts, we had a fun (and safe) afternoon.

The only real complaint I ever had was raising the Main, it
ALWAYS takes the winch. But that's just the nature of the boat.

This one is ASKING $29.9 with max-prop and Auto pilot! I bet you could walk out at $26K!
http://www.yachtworl...3/United-States

http://www.yachtworl...ng_id=1676&url=

http://www.yachtworl...2/United-States

[Balder]

1. LOTS were sold. (possibly even still for sale)
2. LOTS are still sailing.
3. Some sail in your area
4. There is an avid online community/support system for that model/brand

All four are also true on the Freedoms. They are DEF one of the boats owners fall in love with and very often don't go back to other designs.

The online community is GREAT. And the boat/builder is included in Ferenc Mates book "Worlds best yachts" It's the only boat that fits your criteria you will find in that book.

[crash]

I'll be the contrarian. Tartan 33 is a fine design and a good boat but the newest one is a 28 year old orphan. Just over 200 were built. Tartan today has reorganized numerous times and has no allegiance or connection to the older boats. Cored hulls are stiffer and stronger for a given weight and not something to be afraid of, but 30 year old cored hulls will require an extensive survey and every repair or replacement part is probably a one off.

There are have been over 6,000 Catalina 30's produced and you can call Catalina and talk to the designer. Fit and finish kept up with the times so a newer one likely to have more creature comforts than an older one. There is an active owners association and plenty of aftermarket suppliers. Bottom line, they are OK sailing boats with a huge following and a deep and active support infrastructure.

Not the highest performance boat but a decent and honest boat. I'm sure any of these fleet captains My link would be happy to hook you up with a ride and an introduction to the boat.

IB, as usual, has many good points here. Beneteau is another brand noted for is continuing customer support of older models. The only downside to a boat like a C30 in my mind is when it comes time to sell, you are competing against 100s of other C30s for sale. I think (purely my opinion - no facts here) that tends to depress the price of C30s. The nice ones are somewhat held down in price by all the not so nice ones that might be on the market. Pearson 30s fall into this category as well. But there are many upsides. Including when you go to buy one as there are lots to look at (and find a good one) and the price is probably held down compared to other similar boats. As has been said, there are all sorts of trade offs when it comes to boats. Despite some folks waxing on and on about their particular boat and how perfect it is...

[SemiSalt]

The Scheel keel is also a plus if you are comited to thin water. It may not offer the upwind performance of a centerboard, but is simpler and maintenance free.

A friend had a Tartan 33. It didn't point high, but that was due to the rig more than the keel, I think. It's faster than a regular C30. Not so sure about the tall rig C30. Very strong, and reaches well. The friend's boat had blisters.

The Tartan 34s are the same hull with a masthead rig, and revised interior. They are faster, and would have the advantage of being newer. (Don't confuse these with the first T34s. Not sure of the dates, but the first T34 model was probably pre 1980 and the later was post 1985, approximately).

[bluespruce]

I talked to the seller. They didn't know a lot about the boat but this is what I got.....
1980 tartan 33Sheel keel, fractional rigSelling to settle the estate.
Father was original owner. It was sailed last year into the fall. Engine winterized in fall but the boat wasn't covered for winter. Headliner is falling down and rain water leaking from somewhere.Includes racing sails (Kevlar) and was raced extensively early in life.Engine runs.Owner did the maintenance.Teak interior needs work.Claimed it was a "fixer-upper".
$10k firm
To me there are different levels of fixer-upper. I'm not afraid of cleaning, painting, cabinetry, etc. but I am afraid of wet cores, engines that don't run and rigs about ready to fall down. If it was $20k I wouldn't bother looking. my budget is $25k so this boat leaves me some breathing room for improvements.
bluespruce

[Innocent Bystander]

I talked to the seller. They didn't know a lot about the boat but this is what I got.....
1980 tartan 33Sheel keel, fractional rigSelling to settle the estate.
Father was original owner. It was sailed last year into the fall. Engine winterized in fall but the boat wasn't covered for winter. Headliner is falling down and rain water leaking from somewhere.Includes racing sails (Kevlar) and was raced extensively early in life.Engine runs.Owner did the maintenance.Teak interior needs work.Claimed it was a "fixer-upper".
$10k firm
To me there are different levels of fixer-upper. I'm not afraid of cleaning, painting, cabinetry, etc. but I am afraid of wet cores, engines that don't run and rigs about ready to fall down. If it was $20k I wouldn't bother looking. my budget is $25k so this boat leaves me some breathing room for improvements.
bluespruce

Key will be the hull survey. You may find a good surveyor who will start with the hull and give you an initial up or down based on what is found.

If the hull and engine are sound, that is a pretty attractive price.

[crash]

I talked to the seller. They didn't know a lot about the boat but this is what I got.....
1980 tartan 33Sheel keel, fractional rigSelling to settle the estate.
Father was original owner. It was sailed last year into the fall. Engine winterized in fall but the boat wasn't covered for winter. Headliner is falling down and rain water leaking from somewhere.Includes racing sails (Kevlar) and was raced extensively early in life.Engine runs.Owner did the maintenance.Teak interior needs work.Claimed it was a "fixer-upper".
$10k firm
To me there are different levels of fixer-upper. I'm not afraid of cleaning, painting, cabinetry, etc. but I am afraid of wet cores, engines that don't run and rigs about ready to fall down. If it was $20k I wouldn't bother looking. my budget is $25k so this boat leaves me some breathing room for improvements.
bluespruce

10k is an attractive price. Its possible that a boat with rainwater leaking in and the headliner falling down is still a solid boat underneath. But that tells me no ones been doing much in the way of maintenance for a while. I'm with IB. Get a good surveyor, who is willing to start with the critical items, (hull, rig, deck, engine, likely in that order) and will stop billing at the point you decide to pull the plug. Be there when the boat is surveyed. Even good boat have issues, and you'll learn a lot from the surveyor.

[reis123]

i've been reading the threads for a while. Taking in all i can but hesitating to post as the place can seem a little unwelcoming to newbs. (but it seems like it is mostly in good fun) i figure with the recent Reis incident, now is as good a time to as any to ask a question.

I'm looking to get into sailing and buying a boat for the family. Looking for suggestions on older boats (1980's ish) in the 30' range. Never had any family that sailed. I've never been on a sailboat until a few years ago but it was great.


Random thoughts/criteria:

I've taken a few ASA courses but i claim to know nothing really. Something forgiving would be nice.

The ASA courses were on a J-30 and the cockpit is not conducive to family safety or comfort. i guess i'm looking for the opposite of a J-30. (No offense to J-30 owners, just not kidding myself that the family would be happy on the J-30)

We would likely use the boat on the weekends. Venture out into the lake (Lake Michigan) if the conditions were right. The rest of the time hangout and get away from home and work to relax.

I'm handy, have a workshop and can make just about anything out of wood. Do all my own home repairs/remodeling. i can fix just about anything in a house but am an idiot when it comes to engines. (but i have a trustworthy auto mechanic)

Boats on my short list for the area i'm in and the price range we can afford:

S2 9.2, Catalina 30, Pearson 31-2, Pearson 303, etc

I'll stop here for now and answer any other questions that come up.

Thanks,

Mike


ps. i have no security detail.

It is funny how that when I went through the first steps of contemplating what cruising boat first to buy, greater number of years than I'd care to admit, your first short list of S-2, Catalina 30, and Pearson was, if not on my list, at least among those boats that others might have been recommended to me at the time.

I haven't read this thread, way too long for me by now, and I'd wager some really smart recommendations came through for you.

I'm assuming you have, or at least access to the reviews published by Practical Sailor - the finest in the industry that I have ever seen. Thorough, thoughtful, and one can only imagine pretty good advice. Though, some of the reviews now in print as an added value publication in book form are getting on in years, other words, really dated. The reviews are from their monthly/bi-monthly publication.

I first had a J-24, my kids and I had a blast sailing the boat on the Chesapeake Bay.

I spent a lot of time thinking and looking at boats before coming up with an appropriate, say 28 - 32 foot cruising type and decided upon Sabre. Owned a 28, and then, an absolutely bristol Sabre 30. Best boats for the money for this size "production boat" in my humble opinion. I later sent a letter asking about some design math stuff I couldn't find on the 30, and, Roger Hewson, the founder of Sabre, sent me a personal letter fulfilling my request and some. Great folks.

So, for the price and quality, and compared to the class you are considering, to me, Sabre wins easily.

These days I'll be back on the water soon. I'm still thinking of many options, but fundamentally, as always is the case I suppose, for what purpose will the boat be sailed is the over riding requirement factor to deal with in thinking through what will become My Next Boat. That, and the size of the security detail required for your own, and family's own, protection - perhaps an unusual requirement, but hey, I've had, by any measure, an unusual life. See you 'round mate!

[sansouci]

I did a quick check of responses to date, and did not see a recommendation for the Newport 30. Yes it is an older boat, but it meets many of your requirements. 6'2" headroom, large interior cabin, stable, draft of about 5.5 feet and a great family boat. I own one (no its not for sale) and it has been a great family boat which can be raced at our local club. It has a fair PHRF rating. If you can find one with the M-20 Universal engine that would be better than the M-18 put in some models. The boat is well constructed (some would say over built), hull is solid glass with no laminates like the J-30, which can have water intrusion issues. I looked at Catalina 30s and others before I bought the N-30. The N-30 was much better built with better equipment and construction. A lot depends on your sailing location, I sail on San Francisco Bay in 20 knot winds on a regular basis so I was looking for a solid boat that was not too tender. There is a great Newport Boat Forum in Yahoo Groups which is very active and can give good advice if you should choose a Newport. Price range for Newport 30s is between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on age, condition, and equipment list. It is a 5 KSB, but it sails well upwind and off the wind with a hull speed of about 6.5 knots. Good luck

[U20guy2]

I spoke with a designer who is familiar with the Newport 30's and smaller newports. His recommendation is avoid it given the target of the newport brand was super cheap price tag - and the materials that went into the hulls were likewise cheap materials.

[Schnick]

I always felt like the Newport 30 is the fat sister of the Ranger 29. The Ranger was built just well enough and sailed great, if I was going to trade down on quality and speed to get a Newport's interior, I would make it worth my while and go all the way to a Catalina 30 which is much bigger and not as slow.

[U20guy2]

I always felt like the Newport 30 is the fat sister of the Ranger 29. The Ranger was built just well enough and sailed great, if I was going to trade down on quality and speed to get a Newport's interior, I would make it worth my while and go all the way to a Catalina 30 which is much bigger and not as slow.

Yep - and per the designer who I spoke with his words were. "The newport was cheap to start with by design - how old is it now?- I would avoid them for lots of reasons" The catalina probably has better materials in them than the Newport LOL

[sansouci]

Newport 30s when new, actually cost more than Catalina 30s and are better built. Keels are lead vs steel, interiors are larger and better appointed. The boat was designed by Gary Mull. My 1982 N-30 points higher and is faster than any Catalina 30. How many Ranger 29s or Catalina 30s have raced in the Pacific Cup much less won the whole thing (YES WON, against SC 40, 50s, 52s, Andrews 56). A N-30 won in the entire race in 1998 in just over 12 days. The boat was modified with the addition of a upgraded forward bulkhead and chainplates, but the hull, rudder and keel were not changed other than fairing. Note a N-30 has entered the race again this year.

[U20guy2]

Sorry to burst your bubble but the folks I've talked with were in the Mull shop and viewed the Newport as their bottom line models and I really don't care what you say when one of those people says the age of said hull and their intended life span was not all that high - as such the materials and build quality etc - I would err on the cautious side of the old Newport - just saying.

Let me put it another way if you corner a Mull shop employee and give them the choice of a Newport and some other option a good chance they will opt of the other option. A newer Catalina 30 would be far better than the old Newport

A Ranger is a higher end product out of the same shop by the way. Given the choice between an old Ranger and a Newport a Mull shop person would go for the Ranger every time.

A Pearson 27- or 30 is a better boat than a Newport hands down.

[Steam Flyer]

... ... Newport 30
... The boat is well constructed (some would say over built), hull is solid glass with no laminates
...

Wow, a boat with no laminates

Does that mean it was carved out of a solid block ??

FB- Doug

[Greever]

Bump!

[Steam Flyer]

I talked to the seller. They didn't know a lot about the boat but this is what I got.....
1980 tartan 33Sheel keel, fractional rigSelling to settle the estate.
Father was original owner. It was sailed last year into the fall. Engine winterized in fall but the boat wasn't covered for winter. Headliner is falling down and rain water leaking from somewhere.Includes racing sails (Kevlar) and was raced extensively early in life.Engine runs.Owner did the maintenance.Teak interior needs work.Claimed it was a "fixer-upper".
$10k firm
To me there are different levels of fixer-upper. I'm not afraid of cleaning, painting, cabinetry, etc. but I am afraid of wet cores, engines that don't run and rigs about ready to fall down. If it was $20k I wouldn't bother looking. my budget is $25k so this boat leaves me some breathing room for improvements.
bluespruce

10k is an attractive price. Its possible that a boat with rainwater leaking in and the headliner falling down is still a solid boat underneath. But that tells me no ones been doing much in the way of maintenance for a while. I'm with IB. Get a good surveyor, who is willing to start with the critical items, (hull, rig, deck, engine, likely in that order) and will stop billing at the point you decide to pull the plug. Be there when the boat is surveyed. Even good boat have issues, and you'll learn a lot from the surveyor.

+1 on 'even good boats have issues'

+100 on 'be there when the boat is surveyed' it makes no sense whatever to not be there if you're serious. Surveys do cost money so you might want to spend a day yourself going over evertthing you can think of (make up a check list) and see if there are any 'absolutely nots' on the list. Remember you are going to negotiate price based on what you see, not the survey (a copy of which goes to the insurance company, so you don't want it to look bad).

Price- $10k does sound attractive but this is still a really bad market for older fixer-uppers. Most, you can't friggin' give away (I know for a fact, our junior sailing programs get offered boats as donations and we won't take 99% of 'em). A set of sails for this boat is going to cost $12k+ so those 'old racing sails' had better be in great USEABLE condition or they are just so much landfill. Sails are just an example of what you might be up against, dollar-wise.

Still sounds like it could be the right boat... good luck!

FB- DOug

[bluespruce]

+1 on 'even good boats have issues'

+100 on 'be there when the boat is surveyed' it makes no sense whatever to not be there if you're serious. Surveys do cost money so you might want to spend a day yourself going over evertthing you can think of (make up a check list) and see if there are any 'absolutely nots' on the list. Remember you are going to negotiate price based on what you see, not the survey (a copy of which goes to the insurance company, so you don't want it to look bad).

Price- $10k does sound attractive but this is still a really bad market for older fixer-uppers. Most, you can't friggin' give away (I know for a fact, our junior sailing programs get offered boats as donations and we won't take 99% of 'em). A set of sails for this boat is going to cost $12k+ so those 'old racing sails' had better be in great USEABLE condition or they are just so much landfill. Sails are just an example of what you might be up against, dollar-wise.

Still sounds like it could be the right boat... good luck!

FB- DOug

I thought this boat would be gone in a week but it's still listed. Maybe the market is that bad....Things just haven't worked out for me to take a look at the boat yet.

I didn't know that surveyors would pull the plug on a survey if things aren't checking out very well or if there were big issues discovered. Will most of them work that way?

Do cruising sails really cost $12k? I have no plans to race so Dacron would be fine.

My plan was to take a look and try to find any "deal breakers" before I spent the money on a survey. Of course I don't know exactly what I'm looking for that are the deal breakers. Any book suggestions on what to look for?

Bluespruce

[Tom Ray]

Do cruising sails really cost $12k? I have no plans to race so Dacron would be fine.

My plan was to take a look and try to find any "deal breakers" before I spent the money on a survey. Of course I don't know exactly what I'm looking for that are the deal breakers. Any book suggestions on what to look for?

Bluespruce

You can find new Dacron sails for less, and should not discount used sails for that purpose. Some have lots of life left.

Deal breakers are individual. If you want to know what surveyors look for and find, this guy has a pretty good website.

How to identify a POS? Assume you are looking at one and try to find the evidence.

Bring a small but bright flashlight, maybe a headlight, a camera, and a mirror, preferably on a stem. Picture the boat as a solid piece of fiberglass and think about all the holes that must be in it for it to look the way it does. Each of them should be suspected of leaking until proven otherwise. Look for the evidence of those leaks and the damage done. Look hard. This is why you brought the lights, camera and mirror. Stick that camera into places you can't see and blaze away with the flash. Take pictures of anything and everything. If you are not dirty and sweaty when done, you did not do a good job.

Transoms generally have cores. Assume it is rotten until proven otherwise. Same goes for decks, especially where loaded things (stanchions, any rigging, etc) pass through. Rotten core can be detected by flexing and cracking of the skins and by tapping. It will sound hollow compared to nearby solid core.

Sails should be stiff and running rigging flexible, but neither is likely to be.

If the exhaust elbow on the engine does not look brand new, it will soon die. While you're there, have a look at mounts, stuffing box, and look for leakage of any kind from the engine. Look hard.

Go through systematically and try to turn everything on and off. Every light, fan, everything. If the owner/broker is not really pissed by this time, you did not do a very good job.

[memopad]

Be aware that wet/sopping wet core does not always show itself in the tap test. I think the tapping mostly shows areas that are delaminated, and that doesn't always happen right away after the core gets wet. I pulled gallons of water out of the deck of my Ranger 28 and in some areas the core was soaked but still bonded to the outer skin. I had no idea there was water there until I cut the skin away. Old areas of wet and rotten core that were previously delaminated had been "fixed" aka hidden by someone drilling holes in the deck and injecting epoxy. Kept the decks stiff and tapping on them didn't show any signs of anything wrong underneath.

I like the 28 but if I wanted something with a bigger interior the Ranger 29 looks like a good boat. The 33's also have a strong following.

[Steam Flyer]

Do cruising sails really cost $12k? I have no plans to race so Dacron would be fine.

My plan was to take a look and try to find any "deal breakers" before I spent the money on a survey. Of course I don't know exactly what I'm looking for that are the deal breakers. Any book suggestions on what to look for?

Bluespruce

You can find new Dacron sails for less, and should not discount used sails for that purpose. Some have lots of life left.

New sails are going to cost $6/sq ft and up; good used sails can be found but it takes time and research; another reminder that there just ain't no such thing as a free lunch. You can find sailmakers websites with sail-pricing guides to get a good idea what an individual sail or full set will cost.

But I meant to just point out that sails should be a considered a BIG part of the value of the boat, too often the number & condition of the sails is shrugged off even by people who should know better.

Deal breakers are individual. If you want to know what surveyors look for and find, this guy has a pretty good website.

How to identify a POS? Assume you are looking at one and try to find the evidence.

Bring a small but bright flashlight, maybe a headlight, a camera, and a mirror, preferably on a stem. Picture the boat as a solid piece of fiberglass and think about all the holes that must be in it for it to look the way it does. Each of them should be suspected of leaking until proven otherwise. Look for the evidence of those leaks and the damage done. Look hard. This is why you brought the lights, camera and mirror. Stick that camera into places you can't see and blaze away with the flash. Take pictures of anything and everything. If you are not dirty and sweaty when done, you did not do a good job.

Transoms generally have cores. Assume it is rotten until proven otherwise. Same goes for decks, especially where loaded things (stanchions, any rigging, etc) pass through. Rotten core can be detected by flexing and cracking of the skins and by tapping. It will sound hollow compared to nearby solid core.

Sails should be stiff and running rigging flexible, but neither is likely to be.

If the exhaust elbow on the engine does not look brand new, it will soon die. While you're there, have a look at mounts, stuffing box, and look for leakage of any kind from the engine. Look hard.

Go through systematically and try to turn everything on and off. Every light, fan, everything. If the owner/broker is not really pissed by this time, you did not do a very good job.

Very good advice... I also recommend checking the voltage at several points in the system while stuff is on, as well as turning everything off & disconnecting the batteries for at least 1 hour (don't stand & wait, be checking other stuff) to see what it's voltage settles down to.

Be aware that wet/sopping wet core does not always show itself in the tap test. I think the tapping mostly shows areas that are delaminated, and that doesn't always happen right away after the core gets wet. I pulled gallons of water out of the deck of my Ranger 28 and in some areas the core was soaked but still bonded to the outer skin. I had no idea there was water there until I cut the skin away. Old areas of wet and rotten core that were previously delaminated had been "fixed" aka hidden by someone drilling holes in the deck and injecting epoxy. Kept the decks stiff and tapping on them didn't show any signs of anything wrong underneath.

I like the 28 but if I wanted something with a bigger interior the Ranger 29 looks like a good boat. The 33's also have a strong following.

The Ranger 29 and 33 are great boats, at this point I think the OP is intent on the Tartan.

Tap test- not 100% reliable but what really is? If you tap in a grid pattern, you'll notice places that sound solid and places that sound hollow or dull. This gives you an idea of what's underneath. A sound cored panel will have a certain resonance that you can get familiar with, then if the tone changes without some obvious reason like an access hole behind, then you've found a bad spot. Definitely worth tapping your way along the major panels of the boat, but there is certainly more to 'surveying' than that. As Tom says, it's a hard day's work and if the owner and/or broker aren't PO'd at you long before you're done, then you're not doing a good job!

FB- Doug

[bluespruce]

A co-worker (a sailor) was on that side of the state for a project so he snapped some pictures of the boat for me. (tartan 33, $10k asking price) He couldn't get into the cockpit without a ladder so i just have pictures from the ground.

A few things are concerning.

Pic 1 is of the shaft hanger (i don't know the correct terminology so forgive me) i'm concerned that it looks like it is no longer attached to the hull. (cracked/separating around at least 3 sides)
 pic 1 small.jpg   159K   91 downloads
Pic 2 is of the aft end of the keel. Looks like there was some patching done and there is a horizontal line that is visible. Maybe this is normal but seems suspect to me.
 pic 2 small.jpg   155.96K   89 downloads
Are these a big deal/expense to repair?

The guy who looked at it said it didn't look real good but it wasn't god awful.

[Ajax]

Run away.

There is absolutely no reason for you to buy a boat with that kind of damage, at that price, when there are so many great boats on the market right now.

[bluespruce]

Run away.

There is absolutely no reason for you to buy a boat with that kind of damage, at that price, when there are so many great boats on the market right now.

Thanks for confirming my instinct. I guess I now know why it is still on the market at 1/3 the asking price of other Tartan 33's.

A few others have caught my eye that don't appear to need as much work. An Islander 28 close by is near the top of the list.

[Tom Ray]

Tap test- not 100% reliable but what really is?
FB- Doug

The drill test.

[Steam Flyer]

Run away.

There is absolutely no reason for you to buy a boat with that kind of damage, at that price, when there are so many great boats on the market right now.

The strut & strut bearing are totally fixable... just more time & money. The keel looks like a more serious problem, dunno what's up with that but it can't be good.

My vote would be to run away too, but if you want to look into it more seriously it could still be a deal.

Tap test- not 100% reliable but what really is?
FB- Doug

The drill test.

Shows rotten wood core but not delamination. And pisses off the owner/seller. But if you're really serious, yeah I would (have done) the drill test. Looks like the boat needs all that & more!

FB- Doug

[Tom Ray]

Oh, I'm completely serious, and I've done it too. Not a pre-purchase option, of course. I said you need to piss off the owner/broker, but not THAT much.

[steele]

The keel may not be a problem, this comes from some reading when I was interested in the same model of boat, NO personal experience. The 33 was fit with 2 keels, one longer than the other. This required a triangular shaped plug to make up the difference at the keel joint. Like all keel joints they are prone to cracking, but the use of the plug makes it look strange. If that is the only problem with the keel it might be an easy fix and not a structural problem. There is a tarten yahoo group that might provide more info. I do not know what to make of the strut.

[Ishmael]

The keel may not be a problem, this comes from some reading when I was interested in the same model of boat, NO personal experience. The 33 was fit with 2 keels, one longer than the other. This required a triangular shaped plug to make up the difference at the keel joint. Like all keel joints they are prone to cracking, but the use of the plug makes it look strange. If that is the only problem with the keel it might be an easy fix and not a structural problem. There is a tarten yahoo group that might provide more info. I do not know what to make of the strut.

It looks like the lightweight fairing filler around the strut base is cracking away, no big deal as long as the strut itself is solid on the hull. I have pix at home as to what it looks like under the fairing, I'll post later.

[bluespruce]

1339788310[/url]' post='3752881']
The keel may not be a problem, this comes from some reading when I was interested in the same model of boat, NO personal experience. The 33 was fit with 2 keels, one longer than the other. This required a triangular shaped plug to make up the difference at the keel joint. Like all keel joints they are prone to cracking, but the use of the plug makes it look strange. If that is the only problem with the keel it might be an easy fix and not a structural problem. There is a tarten yahoo group that might provide more info. I do not know what to make of the strut.

I think you are right on this one. I did some more searching and going back though some old links I had found earlier. This link gives the explanation and shows a nice picture of the Sheel keel and plug with no anti fouling paint. http://www.tartanown...33profile.phtml
Thanks for pointing that out.

[Steam Flyer]

The keel may not be a problem, this comes from some reading when I was interested in the same model of boat, NO personal experience. The 33 was fit with 2 keels, one longer than the other. This required a triangular shaped plug to make up the difference at the keel joint. Like all keel joints they are prone to cracking, but the use of the plug makes it look strange. If that is the only problem with the keel it might be an easy fix and not a structural problem. There is a tarten yahoo group that might provide more info.

Ah so

That puts a different face on the keel issue. Maybe the ugly crack isn't a deal-killer but it certianly doesn't make the boat any more valuable. There's always good reason to check out the sump & floors & keelbolts thoroughly anyway.

I do not know what to make of the strut.

That's just more time & money. Shucks you could rip the thing right off the hull and start over, not that big a deal. The engine & tranny alignment is going to be the most difficult part of that potential job.

FB- Doug

[Ishmael]

As threatened yesterday, here's my strut with all the fairing removed. This was nice and solid to start with, unlike the fairing on my 29, which was very lightweight bondo crap. That looked a lot like the fairing cracks on the hull in question.

 strut.jpg   225.11K   24 downloads

[bluespruce]

1339858694[/url]' post='3753694']
As threatened yesterday, here's my strut with all the fairing removed. This was nice and solid to start with, unlike the fairing on my 29, which was very lightweight bondo crap. That looked a lot like the fairing cracks on the hull in question.

 strut.jpg   225.11K   24 downloads

Thanks for the pic. I can understand what's going on now.
I was ready to run away from this boat but maybe it's not as bad as I thought initially.

[steele]

Although I would not give up on the boat, both issues do speak to defered maintenance. You could start by grabbing the strut and giving it a good shake to see if it is loose, but in the end a good look at the sump, keel bolts and engine mounts is in order. Between these issues, and the headliner that could be hiding leaks, you need to be carefull what you are getting into. The flip side is you have some amunition for making a low offer, but a really good inspection should be part of the deal. If the only real problems are filler around the keel and strut, and a messy headliner, then it could be a great boat.

[bluespruce]

Resurrecting my thread.....
I've been visiting brokers and boats but nothing has really struck me as "I really want that boat!"

A CS 30 met most of my "requirements" but the diesel needs work and some other things needed to be done before it would be ready to sail. (not a fixer-upper, more of a put a few things back together kind of boat) I don't plan to sail until next year so a few small tasks are OK for the fall/winter. This boat is still on my possibles list but I'm not in love with it enough to make an offer.


Every few days I do a yacht world search to see what is in my area and price range. A tartan 34-c yawl popped up this time. Sure is pretty and after showing the misses the pictures she said she wants that one. Granted, it's older than I'd like, it's longer than I'd like, it's a yawl, but it has new sails! Is a tartan 34-c yawl a terrible idea? It sure is pretty..... I'd link to the yacht world ad but I can't figure out how to copy a link on this new fangled I-pad thing.

BS

[Tom Ray]

... she said she wants that one.

SOLD!

Sincerely,
A former yacht broker and current married guy

[kdh]

... she said she wants that one.

SOLD!

Sincerely,
A former yacht broker and current married guy

I agree with Tom. Doesn't matter what we think.

[rtb]

As a new sailor I'd like to make an observation for you..

The mentioned Baba 30 and the Catalina 30 are WORLDS APART. They are both 30 feet and from there they are like oil and water...

I mention this because EVERY new sailor only mentions, like you, overall length... as a starter...

[PNW Matt B]

Also, tap and hold the link. A menu will pop up with "Copy Link" being one of the options.

Let us know how the survey and sea trial go...

[Ishmael]

Also, tap and hold the link. A menu will pop up with "Copy Link" being one of the options.

Let us know how the survey and sea trial go...

There are only four 34c's on Yachtworld, and only one is a yawl, so I'm guessing this one. Looks pretty good...

[bluespruce]

Also, tap and hold the link. A menu will pop up with "Copy Link" being one of the options.

Let us know how the survey and sea trial go...

There are only four 34c's on Yachtworld, and only one is a yawl, so I'm guessing this one. Looks pretty good...

Yup. That's the one. To be honest, it would be more attractive if it wasn't a yawl. i just don't know what is involved with sailing a yawl.

[Bob Perry]

Blue:
Yawls have itsy bitsy mizzens. I think you just strap it in so it's not backwinded by the main and call it good. Then take it down if you have weather helm problems. I did an article for GOB some months back where I tried to explain the use of a mizzen on a yawl. It's not a performance issue. It was a CCA rating issue.

[SemiSalt]

re: Tartan 34C.

This is an older design. Two things about this come to mind. First, it will not have the accommodations of a newer 34. To get an idea of why, look at the picture of the stern and note how much stern overhang there is. That's all length that doesn't contribute to the interior. Second, the boat was built back when builders were still trying to make fiberglass boats look like wooden boats, so there is much more exterior wood to take care of. Those old-style cockpit coamings may be the most obvious.

In the next generation Tartan 33/34, the wood coamings are gone, being replaced by fiberglass structures that are wide enough to be winch bases and not impossible to sit on.

I didn't check but I think it's a centerboard boat: another maintenance issue.

I like the look of a yawl myself, but the mizzen does add complication without any real benefit to anyone but the serious cruiser. S&S always used minimum size mizzens on yawls which reduces the benefits even more.

[Soñadora]

All Offers Presented

[Shaggy]

The beauty of a mizzen is that you can just go mizzen and Jib and be done with it. We have a mariner 32 and most of the time my parents sail this way as it is just easier when the wind is up..... +100000 on the wooden looks thing. Boat is georgous, but a bit of work.

[bluespruce]

1343325769[/url]' post='3801768']
Blue:
Yawls have itsy bitsy mizzens. I think you just strap it in so it's not backwinded by the main and call it good. Then take it down if you have weather helm problems. I did an article for GOB some months back where I tried to explain the use of a mizzen on a yawl. It's not a performance issue. It was a CCA rating issue.

Thanks for the reference. I'll pull out the GOB article and read it again. I probably skipped the part about yawls. 30-35' yawls seem to be pretty rare....

[bluespruce]

My boat search update if anyone is interested.....

I've been checking out boats here and there for the last few months.

Passed on the fixer-upper Tartan 33. I just didn't want to take on a project boat.
Looked at a Pearson 28-2. Small inside, berths too short, generally not enough space and I don't mind camping in tents. The aft double looked great on paper but trying to jam a closed off aft cabin in a 28' boat just doesn't seem to work and compromises other uses of space. Maybe good for someone of a more svelt build than me.
Looked at a CS 30. Liked the boat but that particular one needed work and I my gut said to walk.
Checked out a Pearson 31-2. I liked the boat but that one had wet core issues that killed previous sales.

I kept seeing lots of Catalina 30s locally. Decided I should take a look at one even though I've been avoiding them just because they seem to be so prevalent. I guess I see why they sold so many. Quite a bit of interior space. Cockpit decent size. Berths are long enough, head room is pretty good, etc. probably doesn't sail as good as others in this size range but frankly I'm too much of a newb to notice the difference.

So, I'm now sort of keying in on the Catalina 30. Trying to find one ready to sail that is local so I don't have to ship it.

Questions on different options.....

Is the tall rig that much better for the great lakes? (would a newb even notice.....)
I would rather not have the atomic 4. Don't exactly know why, but I can afford the diesel models so was leaning that way.
Diesels range from 11hp to 21hp. I assume bigger is better?
Anything other than the "Catalina smile" I should be on the lookout for?

Thanks,

BS

[Slickette]

For what its worth, I learned to sail on a Catalina 27 tall ring and it was alot of fun. Back then, we sailed as a couple -- no kids -- but I could imagine that boat working for a small family. The cockpit was a decent size for everyone to sit in. The wheel steering (as opposed to a tiller) was more intuitive for a new sailor. I find that it can be hard to get your mind wrapped around the idea of pushing the tiller in the opposite direction you want to go until it becomes habit. When things happen quickly (not too often on the water, but still...) it could be nice to be behind a wheel.

I've raced on an S2 7.9, but haven't been on the larger boat you are considering. The 7.9 would be small for a family with a couple of kids, IMHO. I own an Olson 911s (love it) and have heard it's very similar to the S2 9.1 ... if that's the case then I'd think it would work for a family. We are currently a family of 3 (the little one is still pretty small... 7 months old) and really enjoy the Olson 911.

Lastly, I'd agree with the previous posters who encourage you to think through all the costs. Slip fees, new sails, etc are more expensive for a larger boat than a smaller one. Your woodworking skills could come in very handy for rehabing an old boat. You could potentially save a boatload there (pun intended).

I'd also encourage you to think about fitting in some dingy sailng as well. I loved learning to sail on the larger boat and had some wonderful times on it. But sailing didn't really 'click' for me until I got into dingy racing. On a smaller boat you get a quicker feel for how the wind and water forces act on the boat. Even if you buy a bigger boat for your family, you might be able to crew for some dingy racers or take some lessons on a smaller boat.

Whatever you do, have fun! I hope you and your family enjoy this new hobby!

[boomer]

http://forums.catali...ad.php?p=941153

[jackdaw]

You for sure want the tall rig. And the factory bowsprit. The short sticks are pigs in light air. You're on Lake Michigan; sound like a place you know? It always ease to depower a rig when it picks up. But there is nothing you can do when you are all in and still going slow.

Diesel and and not the A4, more HP is all upside.

Look HARD at the sails. A new suit for the Cat30 will cost over $6K. All else being equal get the boat with a good setup.

[boomer]

A agree Jack especially the bowsprit,which can really be a blessing in the light stuff and a asset as the wind picks up for a more balanced helm.Even it one got an older tall stick without a bowsprit ,it would be easy for a shop to make a nice beefy one with a roller for anchoring.I'm a big fan of the Atomic 4 and probably has the most power of all the engines including the diesels,with the exceptions of those models with the Universal Diesel model 25.

Nice article here from Practical Sailor....http://www.practical...ts-10443-1.html

[jackdaw]

Boomer I agree that the A4 is a great engine and with the help of MMI you can keep them purring forever.

But for me its kinda like bluing a house. You're also buying it for the NEXT buyer; the person you have to sell it to. And most buyers want that diesel.

[bluespruce]

The one I looked at yesterday was a 1985 tall rig with the m25 diesel and the bowsprit. Of the boats I have been on so far it is the first one I walked away from with a good gut feeling. Owner has had it for about 10 years and it's been freshwater all it's life. They are moving up to a larger Catalina.

It was in the water so I couldn't check if it had the keel smile. I looked top sides for any signs of spider cracking around the mast step and there was none. Nothing looked out of place around the compression post inside but I also didn't look below the sole.

Owner seems to have taken good care of the boat and takes pride in the boat. Small things have been upgraded over time. The only thing I noticed that it could use off the bat are some new sheets for the genoa.

I took pictures of the inside and my wife liked the Interior. That's important because it can have everything I think is important but if it has the old 1980's plaid upholstery it gets nixed by my wife.

[Black Jack]

http://cgi.ebay.com/...c2a9db7af#v4-40
Not for faint of heart or weak marriages. Best for retired loner-drinker, artist dreamer or serial composter.
Comments from ebay:
Chesapeake Boat Works is selling its 1933, 36’ Wooden Boat - Ketch “Dovekie”. This boat was built in Copenhagen, Denmark. Be prepared to repower this vessel. It has been on the hard for greater than six years, but surprisingly the interior and hull are in good condition. Great winter project! For sale As is, Where is.

[Willy T]

Ever look at c&c's? Well built. Lots out there. Generally fast and quite roomy. Sizes 29 to 34 are quite common

[boomer]

It's nice when you get that intuitive good feeling about a boat Bluespruce...check a few more out and if you still got that feeling about the boat,then it's time to consider a haulout and survey.

[steele]

Another benefit of the Cat 30 you looked at is the higher HP diesel, the smaller 11 hp would be pretty weak for a big 30 footer. Some will chime in that all you need is a low hp motor to get out of the marina, but when the wind is on the nose and the kids a looking a little green it is nice to power up and blast home. Check on the C-30 user sites, but I would bet the 11hp will not push the hull into even a moderate wind.

[Diarmuid]

Tossing in a couple late entries, common to the Great Lakes:

Tanzer. Okay, people think they look a little strange. BUt they have amazing headroom and bunk length for their size (I've head Johan Tanzer was a tall dude), and they sail surprisingly well. Tend to be stiff and to punch thru Great Lakes chop better than some other designs. Here's a T27:

http://www.sailingtexas.com/stanzer27100.html

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/sailboats/Tanzer

Hughes/Northstar 1000. Not the most spacious 30er, but quel forgiving. Lots of them in your area. Simple boats, cheap to own.

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/30163

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1974/Northstar-Northstar-1000-2073677/Afton/MN/United-States

http://kingstonyachtsales.com/used-boats-for-sale-ontario/sailboats-for-sale-ontario/hughes-northstar-1000-1974-11500/

DO look closely at the engine type and condition. A Midwest engine should have moderate hours, but nothing ups the cost of boat ownership like a re-power.

[boomer]

The one I looked at yesterday was a 1985 tall rig with the m25 diesel and the bowsprit. Of the boats I have been on so far it is the first one I walked away from with a good gut feeling. Owner has had it for about 10 years and it's been freshwater all it's life. They are moving up to a larger Catalina.

It was in the water so I couldn't check if it had the keel smile. I looked top sides for any signs of spider cracking around the mast step and there was none. Nothing looked out of place around the compression post inside but I also didn't look below the sole.

Owner seems to have taken good care of the boat and takes pride in the boat. Small things have been upgraded over time. The only thing I noticed that it could use off the bat are some new sheets for the genoa.

I took pictures of the inside and my wife liked the Interior. That's important because it can have everything I think is important but if it has the old 1980's plaid upholstery it gets nixed by my wife.

Just checked that boat out.Looks very well outfitted...now I see why you came away with a good feeling.

[bluespruce]

Boomer

Just checked that boat out.Looks very well outfitted...now I see why you came away with a good feeling.

My guess is you found this one listed on yachtworld. http://www.yachtworl...I/United-States That one is certainly well equiped but the one I'm looking at doesn't have quite the list of extras like radar and a few other things. But, the asking price of the one I'm looking at is $5,000 less as well.

My wife told me to make the seller an offer. I think she may just want me to get back to my honey-do list and stop looking at yachtworld and sailboat listings every night.... But honestly, we like the boat, it has what we need and is well less than our budget number which leaves us some room for the unexpecteds.

My next hurdle.... It's a private sale and I haven't got a clue of language to put in an offer.

Anyone know of a boiler plate offer sheet with the legal language to cover my butt? "Subject to survey" is a given but anything else?

Any help appreciated.

BS

[boomer]

Privately,if I liked the boat,then just made an offer to the seller. Not unlike selling a car. Offer wise,usually without insulting the owner 10-20% less then what he's offering...I offered 50% less for a few boats that I saw listed for more then a year and got some bargains,depends on how much the owner wants to sell it for.Sometimes I've used as simple an agreement as a handshake,bill of sale and title.Usually I handle my own survey,but also have paid surveyors to do the job as well.Even if you get the best surveyor,it's good to survey it yourself as well and write everything down just like a surveyor would,and check everything.Some surveyors may not be as thorough as you would.Usually I never make an offer till I reviewed the survey and took a day or two to mull it over.

In some cases the owner wanted a more complex agreement...here are some guidelines if a more complex agreement and document is required.

http://www.sailquest...et/document.htm

• Drafting an "Offer to Purchase and
  Agreement of Purchase and Sale".
• The document should clearly identify "the Buyer(s)" and "the Seller(s). It should indicate their name(s) and addresses, and it won't hurt to include phone numbers, fax numbers, and even e-mail addresses.
• The document should clearly describe "the Boat" and all of its equipment and accessories. It should indicate the licence or registration number, any hull and serial numbers, the make and model name, the hull length, and the name and location of the boat. It is important to list all the equipment and accessories that are supposed to be included with the boat. (This last point is often handled by referring to the sheet of paper that Sellers hand out to prospective buyers, and which lists the equipment that comes with a boat. This list could be referred to as "Annex A" and made an integral part of the agreement.)
• The document should clearly indicated that the Buyer offers to purchase the Boat for "x" amount of dollars, subject to the terms and conditions set out in the agreement.
  
  Some terms and conditions:
• The document should indicate that the Offer to Purchase is only valid until a certain hour and date, after which time, if not accepted, the Offer to Purchase shall be null and void. (Note that if the two parties live some distance away from each other, the document could indicate that the Offer to Purchase must be accepted and returned to the Buyer by registered mail and be postmarked on or before a specified date. Also note that since the period during which the offer remains valid effectively ties up the Buyer, it should be kept as short as possible - depending on the circumstances, anywhere from a few hours to a few days.)
• The document should indicate that the Seller warrants that the boat is being sold with clear title, and that the boat is free of any liens, chattel mortgages, or encumbrances of any nature.
• The document should indicate that the Offer to Purchase and the purchase and sale of the Boat shall be conditional on the Buyer being satisfied with the condition of the Boat as described by a Surveyor on or before a specified date. The document should also indicate that the Boat will be surveyed at the Buyer's expense, by a Surveyor of the Buyer's choice, and that the Seller shall make the Boat available for the survey. (Note that Sellers will not want to keep their boat tied up in a conditional sale longer than necessary, and that a 10 to 14 day period is usually long enough to have the boat surveyed and for the buyer to decide if he or she is satisfied with its condition.)
• If the boat is licenced (which is likely the case), the document should indicate that the Seller shall give notice of the change of ownership of the Boat by signing the Vessel Licence to that effect, and shall provide this Vessel Licence to the Buyer.
• The document should indicate that the completion of the purchase and sale shall occur when the Buyer takes possession of the Boat and its equipment on or before a specified date. The document should also indicate that when taking possession of the Boat, the Buyer shall pay the purchase price (or the balance of the purchase price) in the form of a certified cheque made out to the Seller, and the Seller shall provide the Buyer a "bill of sale" and receipt. (The date of closing should come sometime after the deadlines for meeting the various conditions in the Agreement, and, if necessary, it should allow enough time for the buyer to arrange to have the Boat stored, launched, or transported. The bill of sale should clearly indicate that boat and its equipment have been paid in full, and that they have been sold with clear title and are free of encumbrances of any nature.)
• The document should indicate that until the completion of the purchase and sale of the Boat, the Seller will be responsible for its storage, care, and insurance, and in the event that the Boat is damaged or destroyed before the Buyer takes possession of it, the Buyer shall have the option of cancelling and nullifying the purchase and sale of the Boat.
• If it is not clear where the Agreement is being executed (e.g. the Buyer and Seller live in different provinces), the document should indicate that the Offer to Purchase and the Agreement of Sale and Purchase shall be interpreted according to the laws of one particular province.
  
  Other possible terms and conditions:
• If the purchase of the Boat is going to be financed, the document should indicate that the Offer to Purchase and the purchase and sale of the Boat is conditional on the Buyer being able to obtain the necessary financing at competitive rates on or before a specified date. (Again, Sellers will not want to keep their boat tied up in a conditional sale longer than necessary, so you may want to speak to your banker or lending institution ahead of time.)
• If the Buyer intends to try out the Boat, the document should indicate that the Offer to Purchase and the purchase and sale of the Boat shall be conditional on the Buyer being able to conduct a test sail (sea trail), and on the Buyer being satisfied with the performance of the Boat, on or before a specified date. (For obvious reasons, this condition may only be practical if the Boat is already in the water, or if it's about to be launched.)
• There may be situations where it is necessary to make on offer on a Boat sight unseen. If this is the case, the document should indicate that the Offer to Purchase and the purchase and sale of the Boat is conditional on the Buyer being able to view and inspect the Boat, and being satisfied with the Boat by a specified date. (Since this condition means the deal hinges on the preferences of the buyer, the period for its fulfilling should be the minimum time required for the Buyer to travel to the Boat and inspect it. This period could include the next available weekend if the Buyer has to travel out of town to view the Boat. Note that this condition is in addition to the requirement for a professional survey.)
• If there is no means of testing the engine because the Boat is stored on land, the document could indicate that the Seller warrants that the motor that is being sold with the Boat is in working order at the time of the sale, and that the working order of the motor shall be verified by the Buyer at the first realistic opportunity to launch the Boat. (i.e. at the beginning of the next boating season.)
• If there is to be a deposit for the boat, the document should indicated that the Buyer provides the Seller with a deposit towards the purchase of the Boat in the form of cheque in the amount of "x" dollars, and in the event that the Buyer cancels and nullifies the purchase of the Boat in accordance with the terms of conditions of the Agreement, the deposit shall be promptly returned to the Buyer without interest or deduction.(Note that a 10% deposit is often made out "in trust" to a third party such as a broker. However, a deposit is not always part of the deal when the Buyer and Seller are dealing with each other directly, and if there is a deposit, it will probably be less than 10% of the purchase price.)
• If the Boat is located some distance away from the Buyer, and if there is a need to have it transported by truck, the document could indicate that the Seller shall ensure that all of the boat's equipment and gear in on board the Boat and that the Boat is ready and accessible for transportation.
  
  Signature lines:
• The signature lines at the end of the document should provide spaces to write in the date when, and location where the Buyer and the Seller each signed the Agreement. For added security, a witness for each the Buyer's and Seller's signatures could also sign the document. Moreover, the line preceding the signature of the Seller should indicate that the Seller accepts the offer, and agrees to sell the Boat to the Buyer according to the term and conditions of the Agreement of Purchase and Sale.

[reis123]

I am REIS, beware of boats clinging to waters that sell sail, it is a mistake.

[bluespruce]

We made an offer on the boat and after a little back and forth we came to agreement with the seller. Here is the boat listed on Craigslist. (I don't know how much longer the link will be active.) http://grandrapids.c...3225136286.html

There are cheaper Catalina 30's in the area but his one is the tall rig, bowsprit, bigger diesel and looks to be well maintained and used regularly. I was also considering potential resale down the road and having one of the more desirable models will presumably help me if/when we need to sell it later.

Now I'm trying to find a surveyor and work out the logistics of having it hauled for the survey. Being its the end of the season around here I may just have it hauled for winter instead of paying another haul charge potentially 2-4 weeks later depending on weather and timing.

Thanks all for the help. It was greatly appreciated as this whole process is quite foreign to me.

BS

[boomer]

Congratulations ....since your going to put her on the hard through the winter,ask him to take you out for a trial.That way you have an idea how everything works.Since your new to sailing take a video/cam along and record how all the systems,including hoisting and furling the sails work.This way you'll have a video to review before you splash her next year.

[Innocent Bystander]

Looks like a good choice for you. Congratulations.

Hauling for teh survey and staying out for the winter is a pretty good idea. Make sure the survey starts in the water so you can run the engine under load and the surveyor gets to see the bottom wet. Minor gelcoat blistering tends to show up better when the hull is wet. Mid 80's boats seem to be the most likely to blister but it's not the end of the world if you find some. It is a reason to reopen negotiations.

[steele]

<sup>I am not sure how it works in your area, but around here it is not a big deal to have the yard pull the boat at lunch, leave it in the slings for inspection and splash it an hour later. I mention this in case you have a few weeks of sailing left. I would have toruble buying a new toy and then not being able to use it for 6 months, but that is just me.

The boat looks good, one of the nicest cat 30 of that age I have seen. Replacing the blue rug with a nice wood sole would be a good winter project.</sup>

[U20guy2]

I did a quick check of responses to date, and did not see a recommendation for the Newport 30. Yes it is an older boat, but it meets many of your requirements. 6'2" headroom, large interior cabin, stable, draft of about 5.5 feet and a great family boat. I own one (no its not for sale) and it has been a great family boat which can be raced at our local club. It has a fair PHRF rating. If you can find one with the M-20 Universal engine that would be better than the M-18 put in some models. The boat is well constructed (some would say over built), hull is solid glass with no laminates like the J-30, which can have water intrusion issues. I looked at Catalina 30s and others before I bought the N-30. The N-30 was much better built with better equipment and construction. A lot depends on your sailing location, I sail on San Francisco Bay in 20 knot winds on a regular basis so I was looking for a solid boat that was not too tender. There is a great Newport Boat Forum in Yahoo Groups which is very active and can give good advice if you should choose a Newport. Price range for Newport 30s is between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on age, condition, and equipment list. It is a 5 KSB, but it sails well upwind and off the wind with a hull speed of about 6.5 knots. Good luck

I spoke with a designer who was in that shop when the Newports were built. His response to me was - The NEWPORT line was built and targeted at the bottom of the price target ie sales target buyer and given the age he would not suggest I look at them. LOL

[Ishmael]

I did a quick check of responses to date, and did not see a recommendation for the Newport 30. Yes it is an older boat, but it meets many of your requirements. 6'2" headroom, large interior cabin, stable, draft of about 5.5 feet and a great family boat. I own one (no its not for sale) and it has been a great family boat which can be raced at our local club. It has a fair PHRF rating. If you can find one with the M-20 Universal engine that would be better than the M-18 put in some models. The boat is well constructed (some would say over built), hull is solid glass with no laminates like the J-30, which can have water intrusion issues. I looked at Catalina 30s and others before I bought the N-30. The N-30 was much better built with better equipment and construction. A lot depends on your sailing location, I sail on San Francisco Bay in 20 knot winds on a regular basis so I was looking for a solid boat that was not too tender. There is a great Newport Boat Forum in Yahoo Groups which is very active and can give good advice if you should choose a Newport. Price range for Newport 30s is between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on age, condition, and equipment list. It is a 5 KSB, but it sails well upwind and off the wind with a hull speed of about 6.5 knots. Good luck

I spoke with a designer who was in that shop when the Newports were built. His response to me was - The NEWPORT line was built and targeted at the bottom of the price target ie sales target buyer and given the age he would not suggest I look at them. LOL

I know people who bought Newports. They would never do that again, that's enough for me.

[boomer]

I concur....

[U20guy2]

A agree Jack especially the bowsprit,which can really be a blessing in the light stuff and a asset as the wind picks up for a more balanced helm.Even it one got an older tall stick without a bowsprit ,it would be easy for a shop to make a nice beefy one with a roller for anchoring.I'm a big fan of the Atomic 4 and probably has the most power of all the engines including the diesels,with the exceptions of those models with the Universal Diesel model 25.

Nice article here from Practical Sailor....http://www.practical...ts-10443-1.html

Number 1 must have when we were shopping for the family RV on the water - was diesel engine. There are lots of people who have love afairs with the Atomic bomb ie A4 - its a fun engine to have if you like tinkering - scouring the swap meets for parts and and messing with engines - and don't mind the rank exhaust they have. After having our family RV on the water for a few years now and our first inboard diesel - I freaking LOVE diesel! The fuel doesn't rot and go foul in a months time - they burn so little fuel you will hardly ever make a fuel stop and when you keep them clean and happy they last for EVER.

My only complaint about ours 11hp pushing 8000lbs of chubby 28ft RV is a not enough power to keep your speed rolling if your motoring into chop and some breeze. So going with the larger diesel is for sure a good idea. The Universal diesels are fantastic old beasts that when taken care of do very well. After having ours for a few years now no way would I ever even look at a Atomic 4 powered boat. I just don't have any interest in futzing with them and scrounging around looking for parts and A4 guru's to keep it going.

[U20guy2]

By the way the wife and I set our first family boat at 28ft given we could slip it in the cheapest slip our club had. As for space it does fine granted our 28footer is fat and has a pretty large interior for 28ft it tends to sail like a fat short boat too LOL. But it gets the job done and we have fun with it.

When the kids get older no daycare fees eating up mucho money - and we have more time to do larger sailing activities other than short little runs and the very rare overnight at the dock etc - I think the newer 32-34ft boats are ideal for what would be my last big boat. I really like the Elan 310 and 350 however the Pogo 10.5 really has my eye given the wife and I in a former life use to race a sporty boat and the lifting keel idea with the Pogo would really expand the range of things we could do with the boat like say take the kids cruising up the delta or some of our local rivers etc.

[austin1972]

Well, I am going to say S2 because I am obviously biased. S2's are generally better built than Catalinas. Internal ballast isn't such a bad thing. Google "Catalina Smile".

What part of Michigan do you plan to sail?

My plan was to get a slip in Pentwater. i know Muskegon or Holland would probably be better because there is an inland lake to sail when Michigan is too rough. But we have quite a few friends in Pentwater on the weekends and i just like the small town and closeness of other things to do for the kids.We live in GR so it's not too bad of a drive to get to Pentwater.


There are quite a few S2's around so that definately gives more buying options.

I sail out of Muskegon, and live in Rockford.

Send me a PM and we can meet in Muskegon. You can check out my boat, and we can shoot the breeze about used boats. (our boat is stored at Torresens, on a custom trailer)

You are right about Muskegon being a good alternative when things get choppy on the big lake. Comes in handy when you don't want to take out noobs,elderly in the rough stuff. That said, Muskegon isn't as family friendly as Holland, or Grand Haven...

In San Diego I had no problems keeping up with all of those "faster" Catalina 30's.

Greeves, why don't you introduce the OP to Brian? Or, sell him SevenSundays and go back to being a pilot!
I'm going next Tuesday...

[Monster Mash]

I did a quick check of responses to date, and did not see a recommendation for the Newport 30. Yes it is an older boat, but it meets many of your requirements. 6'2" headroom, large interior cabin, stable, draft of about 5.5 feet and a great family boat. I own one (no its not for sale) and it has been a great family boat which can be raced at our local club. It has a fair PHRF rating. If you can find one with the M-20 Universal engine that would be better than the M-18 put in some models. The boat is well constructed (some would say over built), hull is solid glass with no laminates like the J-30, which can have water intrusion issues. I looked at Catalina 30s and others before I bought the N-30. The N-30 was much better built with better equipment and construction. A lot depends on your sailing location, I sail on San Francisco Bay in 20 knot winds on a regular basis so I was looking for a solid boat that was not too tender. There is a great Newport Boat Forum in Yahoo Groups which is very active and can give good advice if you should choose a Newport. Price range for Newport 30s is between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on age, condition, and equipment list. It is a 5 KSB, but it sails well upwind and off the wind with a hull speed of about 6.5 knots. Good luck

I spoke with a designer who was in that shop when the Newports were built. His response to me was - The NEWPORT line was built and targeted at the bottom of the price target ie sales target buyer and given the age he would not suggest I look at them. LOL

A friends Newport 30 just did the Pac Cup with no problems. Not the first time.

[U20guy2]

I did a quick check of responses to date, and did not see a recommendation for the Newport 30. Yes it is an older boat, but it meets many of your requirements. 6'2" headroom, large interior cabin, stable, draft of about 5.5 feet and a great family boat. I own one (no its not for sale) and it has been a great family boat which can be raced at our local club. It has a fair PHRF rating. If you can find one with the M-20 Universal engine that would be better than the M-18 put in some models. The boat is well constructed (some would say over built), hull is solid glass with no laminates like the J-30, which can have water intrusion issues. I looked at Catalina 30s and others before I bought the N-30. The N-30 was much better built with better equipment and construction. A lot depends on your sailing location, I sail on San Francisco Bay in 20 knot winds on a regular basis so I was looking for a solid boat that was not too tender. There is a great Newport Boat Forum in Yahoo Groups which is very active and can give good advice if you should choose a Newport. Price range for Newport 30s is between $10,000 and $20,000 depending on age, condition, and equipment list. It is a 5 KSB, but it sails well upwind and off the wind with a hull speed of about 6.5 knots. Good luck

I spoke with a designer who was in that shop when the Newports were built. His response to me was - The NEWPORT line was built and targeted at the bottom of the price target ie sales target buyer and given the age he would not suggest I look at them. LOL

A friends Newport 30 just did the Pac Cup with no problems. Not the first time.

Glad he made it - many others have done that trip in far less boats still doesn't mean one of the designers in the shop that built them was out of line when he in very PC words said keep looking I wouldn't recommend them due to their AGE. My take was that the materials and quality of materials used in the building of the boat were not products he would recommend purchasing at the current AGE of the Newports.

[bluespruce]

We made an offer on the boat and after a little back and forth we came to agreement with the seller. Here is the boat listed on Craigslist. (I don't know how much longer the link will be active.) http://grandrapids.c...3225136286.html

There are cheaper Catalina 30's in the area but his one is the tall rig, bowsprit, bigger diesel and looks to be well maintained and used regularly. I was also considering potential resale down the road and having one of the more desirable models will presumably help me if/when we need to sell it later.

Now I'm trying to find a surveyor and work out the logistics of having it hauled for the survey. Being its the end of the season around here I may just have it hauled for winter instead of paying another haul charge potentially 2-4 weeks later depending on weather and timing.

Thanks all for the help. It was greatly appreciated as this whole process is quite foreign to me.

BS

Well....... The deal fell through. I gave the seller a deposit check on Thursday and everything seemed good to go. Over the weekend I found a surveyor and had an appointment pencilled in for later this week. The owner got in touch with me late yesterday after diving the boat (is that a phrase?, seems oddly worded) to make sure there were no surprises during the survey.

He found a surprise that he thought wouldn't pass the survey so he pointed it out to me. Nothing sounded too terribly major to me, but the issue would have been cause for renegotiation at a minimum or an all out rejection of the boat. In the end, the deposit is making it's way back to me and the deal is off at least temporarily. I'm pretty convinced the seller is a stand-up guy and he just didn't want me to go through the expense of the survey and haul to find something wrong. I suppose there could be something else going on in the background (seller's remorse, another buyer, etc) but as long as my deposit comes back i'm OK with the whole thing. It's not like this was the only Catalina 30 on the market.....

In the meantime, the boat search begins again.

BS

[Ishmael]

What was the issue? Seems a little odd to me.

[boomer]

Your doing the right thing...take your time,and make sure your satisfied with your decision.

[Innocent Bystander]

I would guess he found some blistering. A full repair could run between $5,000 and $15,000 or a good part of the value of the boat. spot repairs are cheaper but suspect if dealing with more than a couple of isolated blisters.

Makes me wonder when the boat was last hauled.