295 replies to this topic

[bluespruce]

The reported issue was a nick or gouge in the rudder. He thought the fiberglass skin was punctured and the core could be wet or delaminating. Doesn't sound too serious to me but who knows without seeing it.

Whatever the reason, I'm good with the whole thing so long as the deposit comes back.

Lots of boats out there and now I have another 6 months to look before spring of next year.

[Innocent Bystander]

The reported issue was a nick or gouge in the rudder. He thought the fiberglass skin was punctured and the core could be wet or delaminating. Doesn't sound too serious to me but who knows without seeing it.

Whatever the reason, I'm good with the whole thing so long as the deposit comes back.

Lots of boats out there and now I have another 6 months to look before spring of next year.

Right to be good with it but a new rudder on a 1985 boat isn't a big deal. Around 2500 plus yard fees for installation.

[Soñadora]

I think she may just want me to get back to my honey-do list and stop looking at yachtworld and sailboat listings every night....

say wahuuutt?

am I missing something? Was there some kind of rule or law that said we were s'posed to stop looking at yachtworld and sailboat listings every night?

oh no....I'm in trouble. Is that like that 'porn' stuff I hear talk about?



Dude doesn't want to sell probably because his deal to 'move up' didn't have SWMBO approval. He was probably looking at yachtworld and sailboat listings every night....

[boomer]

The reported issue was a nick or gouge in the rudder. He thought the fiberglass skin was punctured and the core could be wet or delaminating. Doesn't sound too serious to me but who knows without seeing it.

Whatever the reason, I'm good with the whole thing so long as the deposit comes back.

Lots of boats out there and now I have another 6 months to look before spring of next year.

Take your time...till it feels right

[bluespruce]

Right to be good with it but a new rudder on a 1985 boat isn't a big deal. Around 2500 plus yard fees for installation.

I guessed $2,000 off the top of my head when he said rudder. Not a deal breaker to me but it is an easily identified item to justify renegotiation. Maybe there was something else wrong or questionable as well. A little trip to the yard after its hauled for winter might tell me more......

[bluespruce]

am I missing something? Was there some kind of rule or law that said we were s'posed to stop looking at yachtworld and sailboat listings every night?

For a while, looking at boats was my full time hobby. Then the offer was accepted and I deleted all my bookmarks so I wouldn't second guess my decision. Now I have all that work of creating the "possibles" boat list again. Blaming the seller for backing out will probably buy me at least a week or two reprieve from the honey-do list.... Provided I play my cards right.

[Tom Ray]

What was the issue? Seems a little odd to me.

It seems odd to me only in that I repeatedly asked owners to take a swim and run everything prior to survey and few took the suggestion. One such notable incident ended with me taking a nearly-naked swim in a dodgy canal known for septic problems, trying to beat oysters off the prop with the metal part of a Catalina 27 tiller handle. No gloves, of course. Not coincidentally, that was the day I quit selling boats. Yes, of course the deal fell through.

Edit to add: some friends of mine now own that very boat, which was really a nice one except for the oysters.

[opa1]

1. Don't know much about the construction of a Ranger 33, but that is a really good sailor. Goes to weather real good. Not too bad off the wind. Has decent accomodations.
2. Don't buy a balsa cored boat, even if the balsa is above the waterline.
3. Try not to buy a boat that needs a ton of work. Learn how to sail first, to include your family, and then if you want to move to another boat, you will have more knowledge of what makes a boat tick.
4. Dont' buy a balsa cored boat. Even if it looks like a good deal.
5. Always include the family in your sailing world, especially the racing. You will benefit from that later on.
6. I prefer tiller to wheel. That will be easier on the family also. Moves up the learning curve.
7. Welcome to sailing. The best sport in the world. You won't regret it.

[Soñadora]

1. Don't know much about the construction of a Ranger 33, but that is a really good sailor. Goes to weather real good. Not too bad off the wind. Has decent accomodations.
2. Don't buy a balsa cored boat, even if the balsa is above the waterline.
3. Try not to buy a boat that needs a ton of work. Learn how to sail first, to include your family, and then if you want to move to another boat, you will have more knowledge of what makes a boat tick.
4. Dont' buy a balsa cored boat. Even if it looks like a good deal.
5. Always include the family in your sailing world, especially the racing. You will benefit from that later on.
6. I prefer tiller to wheel. That will be easier on the family also. Moves up the learning curve.
7. Welcome to sailing. The best sport in the world. You won't regret it.

Going to contradict you here.

2. Don't buy a balsa cored boat, even if the balsa is above the waterline

Are you suggesting getting a ply-cored boat instead? Sure, foam cored is better, but in the list of boats he's looking at it's rare. And unless it's a smaller boat, the deck is going to have some sort of coring material. Nothing wrong with balsa cored decks. If you do find spongy spots, it's not impossible to repair. Plywood though...run away.

6. I prefer tiller to wheel. That will be easier on the family also. Moves up the learning curve.

I like tillers too, but no way is a tiller easier to figure out than a wheel. "Hey, it's just like a car!" If I were starting out, I wouldn't care tiller vs. wheel and I'd probably lean toward a wheel if the boat's 30' +

Otherwise agree with the rest of that. It really depends on what works for you. Some folks get into dumping wads of cash into the ASA and US Sailing courses. That's great and all, but you can get the same (or better) instruction by heading down to a local YC and hitching a ride on a PHRF racing boat for a season or two.

Or you can do like some folks and just dive right in. It doesn't sound like the OP is a total sailing nub, so jumping into a 27' - 32' boat for the family shouldn't be a problem.

Again, if it were me I'd have narrowed it down to two: Cat 27 or Cat 30.

[boomer]

I'm a big Ranger fan....but I feel he's on the right track looking at the Catalina 30....not to mention as a newb to maintenance and repairs.... Catalina is still in business,the support and parts that would be available.

[Slick470]

Don't rule out balsa cored boats... there are lots of good ones with a history of quality builds. Like C&C for example. Yes there are lots of older boats that have core issues... some builders were better at isolating core than others, but I wouldn't just blanket out a ton of good boats because of that.

re. the tiller vs wheel. Yes, a wheel is more intuitive for someone who has driven a car but never a boat with a tiller. However, it has been my experience that if someone learns to drive a sailboat with a wheel, it is a lot harder for them to figure out the tiller later. For starting out, I think the tiller is the best.

[boomer]

I agree on the tiller for Newbie....but on the other hand,there are more then a few benefits to a wheel....the major con with wheel steering, is twice a season taking time to do inspection and maintenance on the steering system.

[bluespruce]

I like the Catalina 30 for a variety of reasons but I keep looking at other boats too.

Any opinions on a freedom 30? http://www.sailboatl...1&ID=30640&mh=1

Seems attractive for a family. I'm not racing, it's in my price range, just across the lake, etc.

[Slick470]

Not as familiar with the Freedom 30 but they have made some other nice boats. From the pictures it looks much nicer than your average Catalina too. Some infor from sailboat data: http://sailboatdata....sp?class_id=361

It's a Gary Mull design which is a designer I have a lot of respect for. Built by TPI. TPI has had a history of build issues with J/Boats with respect to isolating core from hardware, so a survey would be very prudent, but would be anyway with any boat.

The freestanding carbon mast would give me pause but that is a familiarity issue on my part.

[boomer]

The limited headsail possibilities for light winds would be another consideration.

The few that I've seen here in the NW did OK in breezy conditions,but when the wind went light they seemed a bit slow.

[kimbottles]

The limited headsail possibilities for light winds would be another consideration.

The few that I've seen here in the NW did OK in breezy conditions,but when the wind went light they seemed a bit slow.

Boomer,

I thought you were retired, yet you are up on CA at 5:30am?

Kim

[boomer]

My favorite time of the day,no calls or interuptions...I've been getting up between 3:30 and 4:30am, depending on what time I go to bed, since I was about three years old....I've always liked getting up early....till computers came around that was my reading time even as a kid(I started reading a couple years before kindergarten....till this day I'm still an information and tech junkie....way before computers and riding the ferry,always had at least a dozen books and another dozen tech books & manuals in my vehicle,not to mention state or government spec volumes and job prints....I don't read fiction and haven't since I was a kid)..... and that was when we got up during fishing season....my dad,uncle and grandpa lived to fish on the weekends.

[kimbottles]

My favorite time of the day,no calls or interuptions...I've been getting up between 3:30 and 4:30am depending on what time I go to bed since I was about three years old....I've always liked getting up early....till computers came around that was my reading time even as a kid(I started reading a couple years before kindergarten) and that was when we got up during fishing season....my dad,uncle and grandpa lived to fish on the weekends.

I agree, best time of the day!

Foggy this morning, guess I will have to use the radar for the Puget Sound crossing.

[boomer]

Take your own personal boat? Where do you moor Shilshole, Elliott Bay,the Duwamish or Lake Union?

[kimbottles]

Take your own personal boat? Where do you moor Shilshole, Elliott Bay,the Duwamish or Lake Union?

Been commuting with my various boats for 15 years, much faster/easier than the Governor's Yacht (ferry system).

This morning was 6265 crossings (I am an accountant so I keep track, I know, ..................pathetic.)

Elliott Bay Marina. Closes marina to Blakely Harbor at 4.8 nautical miles

Took the Glacier Bay this morning, it has Radar.

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[boomer]

Take your own personal boat? Where do you moor Shilshole, Elliott Bay,the Duwamish or Lake Union?

Been commuting with my various boats for 15 years, much faster/easier than the Governor's Yacht (ferry system).

This morning was 6265 crossings (I am an accountant so I keep track, I know, ..................pathetic.)

Elliott Bay Marina. Closes marina to Blakely Harbor at 4.8 nautical miles

Took the Glacier Bay this morning, it has Radar.

Cool ! Not pathetic at all in my book...all part of keeping track and logging hours.

A power cat hull used to commute regularly and moor his boat on a float at the dock immediately north of the Manson yard...the same dock NOAH has been leasing the past few years.

There were also a couple of cat and mono hulls commuting from Port Madison and one fellow with a helicopter, on the west hill above the entrance to harbor at Port Madison.

[kimbottles]

Take your own personal boat? Where do you moor Shilshole, Elliott Bay,the Duwamish or Lake Union?

Been commuting with my various boats for 15 years, much faster/easier than the Governor's Yacht (ferry system).

This morning was 6265 crossings (I am an accountant so I keep track, I know, ..................pathetic.)

Elliott Bay Marina. Closes marina to Blakely Harbor at 4.8 nautical miles

Took the Glacier Bay this morning, it has Radar.

Cool ! Not pathetic at all in my book...all part of keeping track and logging hours.

A power cat hull used to commute regularly and moor his boat on a float at the dock immediately north of the Manson yard...the same dock NOAH has been leasing the past few years.

There were also a couple of cat and mono hulls commuting from Port Madison and one fellow with a helicopter, on the west hill above the entrance to harbor at Port Madison.

The late Rupert Broom used to drive his 40ish foot sailboat across from Port Madison. When we lived above Shilshole we would see him coming and going everyday.

There are a few of us daily boat commuters, I am surprised there are not more. It is far faster than the ferry system and much less hassle (except for fog and gill netters.)

[boomer]

Ah yes the gillnetters especially when it's dark or when you have fog.

Rupert Broom was one of the old time commuters using his own boat long before it became fashionable...from what I heard,he commuted for about 50 years....the story goes he crashed a Model T when he first started driving and his dad said he shouldn't drive or be allowed behind a wheel....and that started his boat commuting legacy....from what I heard,his dad also commuted by boat.

I don't think he ever did drive after that initial driving experience....but I may be wrong on that

[boomer]

http://community.sea...15&slug=1905553

[steele]

Kim, your power cat photo looks to be at Hadlock, do you commute up there by boat too for the Sliver updates?

[boomer]

By George !...Clicking on the pic and viewing the larger image.... that is Port Hadlock seeing the warehouses on Indian Island and PT in the distance.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Kim,

You'll enjoy knowing that a very rich investment banker once bought a house in Tiberon with a dock. He installed a 50' cigarette ocean racing boat with three Hemi big block engines - no mufflers - and started to use it to "commute" over to San Francisco in time to get in prior to the NY Stock Exchange opening in the morning. That meant that he lit those puppies off at about 5:30am every morning.

The first morning the Tiberon Police got five calls, the next morning they got 20 calls, the third morning they were waiting at the guy's house and tagged him for "disturbing the peace". He fought it and won. Eventually Tiberon enacted some sort of noise abatement law that shut him down, but for almost a year everyone on the west side of the Tiberon peninsula was awake at 0530 by those three massive Hemi V8s.

I always enjoyed seeing him going home upwind and against the waves in the afternoon after the market closed - a WET and BUMPY ride.

BV

[wick]

Wow, 418 crossings a year, 2506 miles a year. (37950 total over 15 years if just to Elliot Bay)
All those chances to be on the water.

Been commuting with my various boats for 15 years, much faster/easier than the Governor's Yacht (ferry system).

This morning was 6265 crossings (I am an accountant so I keep track, I know, ..................pathetic.)

Elliott Bay Marina. Closes marina to Blakely Harbor at 4.8 nautical miles

Took the Glacier Bay this morning, it has Radar.

[kimbottles]

Kim, your power cat photo looks to be at Hadlock, do you commute up there by boat too for the Sliver updates?

Did just that one time on a Saturday on the way to Lopez Island. I was actually delivering parts to the project.

Good eye!!

[kimbottles]

Kim,

You'll enjoy knowing that a very rich investment banker once bought a house in Tiberon with a dock. He installed a 50' cigarette ocean racing boat with three Hemi big block engines - no mufflers - and started to use it to "commute" over to San Francisco in time to get in prior to the NY Stock Exchange opening in the morning. That meant that he lit those puppies off at about 5:30am every morning.

The first morning the Tiberon Police got five calls, the next morning they got 20 calls, the third morning they were waiting at the guy's house and tagged him for "disturbing the peace". He fought it and won. Eventually Tiberon enacted some sort of noise abatement law that shut him down, but for almost a year everyone on the west side of the Tiberon peninsula was awake at 0530 by those three massive Hemi V8s.

I always enjoyed seeing him going home upwind and against the waves in the afternoon after the market closed - a WET and BUMPY ride.

BV

When I had my louder diesel powered Armstrong Marine Power Catamaran some of our neighbors used me as an alarm clock. Then when I started using the Hadlock Skiff with its very quiet Honda 90 EFI they complained that they were oversleeping.....

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[Jose Carumba]

Back when I was in diapers and there was no bridge my dad used to commute in a tuna chase boat from the west end of Fox Island to the shipyard on the Tacoma tideflats. He later told me it was because it was faster than the ferry. I knew there was a reason I like you Kim.

[bluespruce]

Not as familiar with the Freedom 30 but they have made some other nice boats. From the pictures it looks much nicer than your average Catalina too. Some infor from sailboat data: http://sailboatdata....sp?class_id=361

It's a Gary Mull design which is a designer I have a lot of respect for. Built by TPI. TPI has had a history of build issues with J/Boats with respect to isolating core from hardware, so a survey would be very prudent, but would be anyway with any boat.

The freestanding carbon mast would give me pause but that is a familiarity issue on my part.

The freestanding mast concerns me too. The thing is 25 years old so it has worked for that long but i wonder what the life expectancy is and if there is any cost effective way to determine the condition of the mast. I'm guessing the mast isn't cheap to replace if something does happen.

My other concern is that it seems to be a niche boat. I'm guessing the market is small and resale could be a problem. But, buying at the right price eliminates or reduces some of that concern.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Kim,

You'll enjoy knowing that a very rich investment banker once bought a house in Tiberon with a dock. He installed a 50' cigarette ocean racing boat with three Hemi big block engines - no mufflers - and started to use it to "commute" over to San Francisco in time to get in prior to the NY Stock Exchange opening in the morning. That meant that he lit those puppies off at about 5:30am every morning.

The first morning the Tiberon Police got five calls, the next morning they got 20 calls, the third morning they were waiting at the guy's house and tagged him for "disturbing the peace". He fought it and won. Eventually Tiberon enacted some sort of noise abatement law that shut him down, but for almost a year everyone on the west side of the Tiberon peninsula was awake at 0530 by those three massive Hemi V8s.

I always enjoyed seeing him going home upwind and against the waves in the afternoon after the market closed - a WET and BUMPY ride.

BV

When I had my louder diesel powered Armstrong Marine Power Catamaran some of our neighbors used me as an alarm clock. Then when I started using the Hadlock Skiff with its very quiet Honda 90 EFI they complained that they were oversleeping.....

That cat looks like some sort of 3rd world cop boat, tough and strong. But that skiff - crazy man! You took that across to work in the winter?? Are you nuts????

[kimbottles]

That cat looks like some sort of 3rd world cop boat, tough and strong. But that skiff - crazy man! You took that across to work in the winter?? Are you nuts????

Yeah after three winters I broke down and bought a winter boat which I am really glad to have because it is really foggy again this morning and the winter boat has RADAR.

It was foggy going home last night too which is really rare.

There were several times crossing in the fog in the sans electronics skiff that I really questioned "what the hell am I doing out here!?"

But I still love my cold molded wood Paul Gartside designed Hadlock 23 skiff in a way that I will never feel about the fiberglass Glacier Bay Cat.

[islandplanet]

An S2 9.1 is a great boat. Faster than a 9.2, so you won't find yourself looking for something with more performance after a few years. The S2s are generally well built, but watch out for wet core - like on any 80s vintage boat with a cored hull and/or deck. Definitely get a survey on anything you decide to buy, and make the deal contingent pour acceptance of the survey and sea trial.

+ 1 on the above advice about getting something ready to sail. Don't fall into the false economy trap of buying a project. Regardless of how handy you are, I assure that your family will not find the same enjoyment as you in boat projects (ask me how I know this). Spend time sailing with them instead!

The S2 9.1 has a pretty active fleet in the Great Lakes. Our Toronto rep has one and there's a great group of owners. So in addition to the qualities of the boat itself, you have some good resources out there to help you sort things out.

[islandplanet]

Not as familiar with the Freedom 30 but they have made some other nice boats. From the pictures it looks much nicer than your average Catalina too. Some infor from sailboat data: http://sailboatdata....sp?class_id=361

It's a Gary Mull design which is a designer I have a lot of respect for. Built by TPI. TPI has had a history of build issues with J/Boats with respect to isolating core from hardware, so a survey would be very prudent, but would be anyway with any boat.

The freestanding carbon mast would give me pause but that is a familiarity issue on my part.

The freestanding mast concerns me too. The thing is 25 years old so it has worked for that long but i wonder what the life expectancy is and if there is any cost effective way to determine the condition of the mast. I'm guessing the mast isn't cheap to replace if something does happen.

My other concern is that it seems to be a niche boat. I'm guessing the market is small and resale could be a problem. But, buying at the right price eliminates or reduces some of that concern.

Short of a lightning strike or hitting a bridge, that mast is really not a concern. They have an excellent track record. I used to own a Freedom 39 ketch and wouldn't hesitate about buying a Freedom based on concerns about rig integrity. There may be some other reasons that the boat isn't a good fit for you but don't sweat the freestanding mast. They are far more reliable than conventional rigs that have dozens of different failure points.

[bluespruce]

I'm back and my search continues. There seem to be some more boats are on the market after the season ended up here in the north.

Anybody have any insight on a Sabre 30 Mark II? Here is a link to the listing. http://www.sailboatl...1&ID=32666&mh=1

I like the boat. Looks nice to my untrained eye. Not pretty like a Baba 30, but prettier than most of the other boats I have been looking at. (The dodger looks unusually tall.....) Seems "small" for a 30' boat but from the literature I can find the berths are longer than most other 30'ers.

I haven't been able to find any reviews on this boat. I find sabre 28, 32, and 34 reviews but nothing on the 30.

Any input from someone that knows more about this model is appreciated.

Thanks, BS

[dinghydoc]

I don't know the boat's other qualities and I'm not sure if you plan to use the galley much but if you do I think you will find that layout to be a bit awkward. You will have crew stepping over or on your work surface as they come and go below. Personally I would reject a galley like that but you may not plan to cook much. It doesn't look like you can even stand and work at the sink or work surface because of the steps. I assume the engine is under those steps?

[Brodie]

I've sailed on both a Freedom 30 and a 38 - great boats. Definitely not the fastest in light air (we used to PHRF race the 38 on Tuesday nights - that was painful) but they are well built, solid boats that are definitely a nice step up from a Catalina. Self tacking jib makes things simple - no flailing sheets or winch handles while tacking. The main on the 38 was a beast (I think it was 700 sq ft) but the 30 is very manageable.

[Jim in Halifax]

My neighbor has a Saber 30 and loves it. He is out in all weather, often sailing solo. Does week-long cruises with the wife and kids too. His boat has a much lower profile dodger than the one pictured in your link - maybe that one is "custom"? BTW, I think all the Saber 30s are keel centerboard?

[bluespruce]

My neighbor has a Saber 30 and loves it. He is out in all weather, often sailing solo. Does week-long cruises with the wife and kids too. His boat has a much lower profile dodger than the one pictured in your link - maybe that one is "custom"? BTW, I think all the Saber 30s are keel centerboard?

The one I'm looking at is a 5' fin keel model. Boat looks to be in good shape from the ground. I went to see it yesterday but had an issue getting the owners ladder unlocked so I wasn't able to get inside the boat. Gel coat looks shiny still. Nothing unusual looking on the bottom with the rudder, prop, thru hulls, etc. it has a nice new canvas winter cover. I'll bring a ladder next time to get in the boat. Boat has always been in Lake Michigan.

From what I have seen so far in person and from the pictures it looks to be in better shape than most 25+ year old boats I've been looking at.

Thanks, BS

[bluespruce]

I don't know the boat's other qualities and I'm not sure if you plan to use the galley much but if you do I think you will find that layout to be a bit awkward. You will have crew stepping over or on your work surface as they come and go below. Personally I would reject a galley like that but you may not plan to cook much. It doesn't look like you can even stand and work at the sink or work surface because of the steps. I assume the engine is under those steps?

Yup. The galley and the step on the countertop is probably the biggest thing holding me back on this boat. It looks awkward at best but I don't know how awkward it would be in "action". I don't envision cooking if we are underway so it might not be that much of an issue for us and how we plan to use the boat. Moving or reconfiguring the galley is impossible so it could be a deal breaker.

Thanks, BS

[Tom Ray]

Not as familiar with the Freedom 30 but they have made some other nice boats. From the pictures it looks much nicer than your average Catalina too. Some infor from sailboat data: http://sailboatdata....sp?class_id=361

It's a Gary Mull design which is a designer I have a lot of respect for. Built by TPI. TPI has had a history of build issues with J/Boats with respect to isolating core from hardware, so a survey would be very prudent, but would be anyway with any boat.

The freestanding carbon mast would give me pause but that is a familiarity issue on my part.

The freestanding mast concerns me too. The thing is 25 years old so it has worked for that long but i wonder what the life expectancy is and if there is any cost effective way to determine the condition of the mast. I'm guessing the mast isn't cheap to replace if something does happen.

My other concern is that it seems to be a niche boat. I'm guessing the market is small and resale could be a problem. But, buying at the right price eliminates or reduces some of that concern.

Short of a lightning strike or hitting a bridge, that mast is really not a concern. They have an excellent track record. I used to own a Freedom 39 ketch and wouldn't hesitate about buying a Freedom based on concerns about rig integrity. There may be some other reasons that the boat isn't a good fit for you but don't sweat the freestanding mast. They are far more reliable than conventional rigs that have dozens of different failure points.

I'd add interaction with a hurricane to that list. I once sold a Seaward 23 with a free standing carbon fiber mast. The boat had been in Placida when hurricane Charley came through. That's on the weak side of the storm and far enough away that the owner's neighborhood did not experience a lot of downed trees or roof damage, but a neighbor reported that during the storm the mast was whipping around pretty hard.

We could not find any damage from this, nor could the surveyor, who was a good one. Carbon fiber doesn't give any warning cracks or anything, it just catastrophically fails, it turns out.

A month or so after the sale, the new owner came into the office and reported that while reaching along in about 10 knots of breeze, the mast just gracefully fell over the side into the water.

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
Short of a lightning strike or hitting a bridge, that mast is really not a concern. They have an excellent track record. I used to own a Freedom 39 ketch and wouldn't hesitate about buying a Freedom based on concerns about rig integrity. There may be some other reasons that the boat isn't a good fit for you but don't sweat the freestanding mast. They are far more reliable than conventional rigs that have dozens of different failure points.

I'd add interaction with a hurricane to that list. I once sold a Seaward 23 with a free standing carbon fiber mast. The boat had been in Placida when hurricane Charley came through. That's on the weak side of the storm and far enough away that the owner's neighborhood did not experience a lot of downed trees or roof damage, but a neighbor reported that during the storm the mast was whipping around pretty hard.

We could not find any damage from this, nor could the surveyor, who was a good one. Carbon fiber doesn't give any warning cracks or anything, it just catastrophically fails, it turns out.

A month or so after the sale, the new owner came into the office and reported that while reaching along in about 10 knots of breeze, the mast just gracefully fell over the side into the water.

That's what happens with the "ideal material" and a yield curve which is basically straight... It's fine, it's busted. At least this one didn't explode in a shower of razor-sharp splinters.

But seriously, islandplanet is right. Carbon fiber masts and free-standing rigs have a much lower failure rate, and in general are much much safer. In specific cases, 1- you get insurance and 2- you look up the inspection procedure (try under aviation) and 3- you get it and don't worry be happy; or you move on to the next more conventional boat.

I have no idea what the specific procedures for testing carbon fiber structural elements are, but I can guarantee you that they don't let airplanes (especially military airplanes) fly around with wings that might break off suddenly. It's just a question of applying that test to a boat mast... probably expensive.

FB- Doug

[Innocent Bystander]

... ...
Short of a lightning strike or hitting a bridge, that mast is really not a concern. They have an excellent track record. I used to own a Freedom 39 ketch and wouldn't hesitate about buying a Freedom based on concerns about rig integrity. There may be some other reasons that the boat isn't a good fit for you but don't sweat the freestanding mast. They are far more reliable than conventional rigs that have dozens of different failure points.

I'd add interaction with a hurricane to that list. I once sold a Seaward 23 with a free standing carbon fiber mast. The boat had been in Placida when hurricane Charley came through. That's on the weak side of the storm and far enough away that the owner's neighborhood did not experience a lot of downed trees or roof damage, but a neighbor reported that during the storm the mast was whipping around pretty hard.

We could not find any damage from this, nor could the surveyor, who was a good one. Carbon fiber doesn't give any warning cracks or anything, it just catastrophically fails, it turns out.

A month or so after the sale, the new owner came into the office and reported that while reaching along in about 10 knots of breeze, the mast just gracefully fell over the side into the water.

That's what happens with the "ideal material" and a yield curve which is basically straight... It's fine, it's busted. At least this one didn't explode in a shower of razor-sharp splinters.

But seriously, islandplanet is right. Carbon fiber masts and free-standing rigs have a much lower failure rate, and in general are much much safer. In specific cases, 1- you get insurance and 2- you look up the inspection procedure (try under aviation) and 3- you get it and don't worry be happy; or you move on to the next more conventional boat.

I have no idea what the specific procedures for testing carbon fiber structural elements are, but I can guarantee you that they don't let airplanes (especially military airplanes) fly around with wings that might break off suddenly. It's just a question of applying that test to a boat mast... probably expensive.

FB- Doug

Very few ways to test for slow degradation of a CF structure. Impact or abrasion damage is visible and call for a non destructive scan to look for hidden delamination. Because of the failure characteristics design is such that "normal" loads are far below low or high cycle fatigue limits so it can generally be "ignored" for the purposes of determining useful life. From my experience, consumer carbon masts are very overbuilt and should be good for the life of the hull with UV protection and absent physical damage or a lightening strike, etc.

The seaward mast TR mentions is interesting. I guess it is possible that the whipping of the mast created enough damage or abrasion but there "should" have been signs of the imminent failure of it went over the side in 10 knots.

[oldweezer]

I don't know the boat's other qualities and I'm not sure if you plan to use the galley much but if you do I think you will find that layout to be a bit awkward. You will have crew stepping over or on your work surface as they come and go below. Personally I would reject a galley like that but you may not plan to cook much. It doesn't look like you can even stand and work at the sink or work surface because of the steps. I assume the engine is under those steps?

Yup. The galley and the step on the countertop is probably the biggest thing holding me back on this boat. It looks awkward at best but I don't know how awkward it would be in "action". I don't envision cooking if we are underway so it might not be that much of an issue for us and how we plan to use the boat. Moving or reconfiguring the galley is impossible so it could be a deal breaker.

Thanks, BS

I have a Sabre 28 and the step on the countertop is annoying but very rarely is an issue. On smaller boats you use the space you have. I had a friend with the 30 (the former owner of my 28) and I thought it was a nice boat. He wasn't too happy when his old boat beat him to port though(it must have been my skill).
In looking at the ad for the 30, I am wondering about the following: "asymatical and tri-radical spinnaker". Those "asymaticals" can be a bitch and the "tri-radical" is probably three times as radical as the "asymatical".
IMO you won't go wrong with a Sabre, they are way overbuilt (I have stories to prove it).

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
I have no idea what the specific procedures for testing carbon fiber structural elements are, but I can guarantee you that they don't let airplanes (especially military airplanes) fly around with wings that might break off suddenly. It's just a question of applying that test to a boat mast... probably expensive.

Very few ways to test for slow degradation of a CF structure. Impact or abrasion damage is visible and call for a non destructive scan to look for hidden delamination. Because of the failure characteristics design is such that "normal" loads are far below low or high cycle fatigue limits so it can generally be "ignored" for the purposes of determining useful life. From my experience, consumer carbon masts are very overbuilt and should be good for the life of the hull with UV protection and absent physical damage or a lightening strike, etc.

The seaward mast TR mentions is interesting. I guess it is possible that the whipping of the mast created enough damage or abrasion but there "should" have been signs of the imminent failure of it went over the side in 10 knots.

Yes I thought TR's story was interesting on several levels; but then I'm not a Seaward fan.


Thing is, you might be able to dye-&-scope a CF spar to see fatigue but that won't tell you anything about the carbon elements. After googling a few key phrases, I have found references to X-raying CF helicopter blades to evaluate remaining service life -BUT- I'm sure the gear to CT scan a mast will be prohibitively expensive. CF is conductive, I wonder if a resistance-inductance test might be able to reveal fatigure.

In any event, I like the Freedoms and the spar would be one of the last things I'd worry about.

FB- Doug

[Tom Ray]

... ...
Short of a lightning strike or hitting a bridge, that mast is really not a concern. They have an excellent track record. I used to own a Freedom 39 ketch and wouldn't hesitate about buying a Freedom based on concerns about rig integrity. There may be some other reasons that the boat isn't a good fit for you but don't sweat the freestanding mast. They are far more reliable than conventional rigs that have dozens of different failure points.

I'd add interaction with a hurricane to that list. I once sold a Seaward 23 with a free standing carbon fiber mast. The boat had been in Placida when hurricane Charley came through. That's on the weak side of the storm and far enough away that the owner's neighborhood did not experience a lot of downed trees or roof damage, but a neighbor reported that during the storm the mast was whipping around pretty hard.

We could not find any damage from this, nor could the surveyor, who was a good one. Carbon fiber doesn't give any warning cracks or anything, it just catastrophically fails, it turns out.

A month or so after the sale, the new owner came into the office and reported that while reaching along in about 10 knots of breeze, the mast just gracefully fell over the side into the water.

That's what happens with the "ideal material" and a yield curve which is basically straight... It's fine, it's busted. At least this one didn't explode in a shower of razor-sharp splinters.

But seriously, islandplanet is right. Carbon fiber masts and free-standing rigs have a much lower failure rate, and in general are much much safer. In specific cases, 1- you get insurance and 2- you look up the inspection procedure (try under aviation) and 3- you get it and don't worry be happy; or you move on to the next more conventional boat.

I have no idea what the specific procedures for testing carbon fiber structural elements are, but I can guarantee you that they don't let airplanes (especially military airplanes) fly around with wings that might break off suddenly. It's just a question of applying that test to a boat mast... probably expensive.

FB- Doug

Very few ways to test for slow degradation of a CF structure. Impact or abrasion damage is visible and call for a non destructive scan to look for hidden delamination. Because of the failure characteristics design is such that "normal" loads are far below low or high cycle fatigue limits so it can generally be "ignored" for the purposes of determining useful life. From my experience, consumer carbon masts are very overbuilt and should be good for the life of the hull with UV protection and absent physical damage or a lightening strike, etc.

The seaward mast TR mentions is interesting. I guess it is possible that the whipping of the mast created enough damage or abrasion but there "should" have been signs of the imminent failure of it went over the side in 10 knots.

We all looked at it pretty closely, felt it, etc.

That mast did stay in the sun all the time.

[curm]

I've read through this thread and I'm surprised that no one has suggested a Bristol 29.9. Here's one on lake Michigan: http://www.yachtworl...L/United-States

Someone mentioned Hunters. I despise the new ones--they're built like crap-- but the older Hunter Cherubinis aren't half bad.

[dinghydoc]

I don't know the boat's other qualities and I'm not sure if you plan to use the galley much but if you do I think you will find that layout to be a bit awkward. You will have crew stepping over or on your work surface as they come and go below. Personally I would reject a galley like that but you may not plan to cook much. It doesn't look like you can even stand and work at the sink or work surface because of the steps. I assume the engine is under those steps?

Yup. The galley and the step on the countertop is probably the biggest thing holding me back on this boat. It looks awkward at best but I don't know how awkward it would be in "action". I don't envision cooking if we are underway so it might not be that much of an issue for us and how we plan to use the boat. Moving or reconfiguring the galley is impossible so it could be a deal breaker.

Thanks, BS

I have a Sabre 28 and the step on the countertop is annoying but very rarely is an issue. On smaller boats you use the space you have. I had a friend with the 30 (the former owner of my 28) and I thought it was a nice boat. He wasn't too happy when his old boat beat him to port though(it must have been my skill).
In looking at the ad for the 30, I am wondering about the following: "asymatical and tri-radical spinnaker". Those "asymaticals" can be a bitch and the "tri-radical" is probably three times as radical as the "asymatical".
IMO you won't go wrong with a Sabre, they are way overbuilt (I have stories to prove it).

OK, good. He needs to hear from people that have used this design. I was actually wondering more what it was like to stand and work in that space with the steps there. It could be the photo makes it look worse than it really is. Every boat has compromises and this layout probably allows for more room elsewhere.

[Brodie]

Also second the Bristol 29.9 - I haven't seen this one in person but a friend is selling one in Scituate, MA

[bluespruce]

I've read through this thread and I'm surprised that no one has suggested a Bristol 29.9. Here's one on lake Michigan: http://www.yachtworl...L/United-States

Someone mentioned Hunters. I despise the new ones--they're built like crap-- but the older Hunter Cherubinis aren't half bad.

I've had that Bristol 29.9 bookmarked for a while. It's about a 4 hour drive to see it so I haven't made the trip yet. But, we are headed that way for a 4 day Christmas gathering at my sister in laws. It sounds like a good excuse to take a little break from the extended family and go look at a boat.....

BS

[Ajax]

The Sabre is more aesthetically pleasing to my eye, and I suspect is faster, but the Bristol may be a little more comfortable.

Sabre SA/disp ratio: 17.32
Bristol SA/disp ratio: 14.89

They both have a ballast/disp ratio of around 42%, so I would think that neither of them would be too tender.
My totally uneducated, amatuer opinion is: Sabre for performance, Bristol for a little more comfort.

Hrmmmmmmm... There is a Bristol 29.9 "tall mast" option, sort of like the Catalina 30 offered. This narrows the performance factor even more. Try to find out if this Bristol has that option. Sometimes the seller doesn't know what they have.

My galley layout is similar to both, I don't have any problems using it, and I live aboard. I cook regularly, but not underway. I don't have any pot clamps, and the stove isn't gimballed. The only thing about the Sabre galley is that you might have to refrain from using the section where the step are, when you're underway, as people may be coming and going. When you're on the hook, tell people to sit the fuck down, until dinner is ready.

[bluespruce]

The Sabre is more aesthetically pleasing to my eye, and I suspect is faster, but the Bristol may be a little more comfortable.

Sabre SA/disp ratio: 17.32
Bristol SA/disp ratio: 14.89

They both have a ballast/disp ratio of around 42%, so I would think that neither of them would be too tender.
My totally uneducated, amatuer opinion is: Sabre for performance, Bristol for a little more comfort.

Hrmmmmmmm... There is a Bristol 29.9 "tall mast" option, sort of like the Catalina 30 offered. This narrows the performance factor even more. Try to find out if this Bristol has that option. Sometimes the seller doesn't know what they have.

My galley layout is similar to both, I don't have any problems using it, and I live aboard. I cook regularly, but not underway. I don't have any pot clamps, and the stove isn't gimballed. The only thing about the Sabre galley is that you might have to refrain from using the section where the step are, when you're underway, as people may be coming and going. When you're on the hook, tell people to sit the fuck down, until dinner is ready. ;)/>

The Sabre looks better to my eye too but the Bristol still looks good to me as well.

We will be family sailing. Sleep on board at night at a marina or on the hook. Sail during the day and if its during lunch we'd eat cold lunch. By dinner time we'd probably be stopped somewhere. I just don't see cooking underway very often and the few times we might do that we'll just have to cope with a lack of space.

Despite my propensity to buy something cheap and fix it up I'm coming to the conclusion that I just don't want to do that with a boat. I'm trying to find something of good initial quality in decent shape that doesn't need much work. (I'm sure there will be plenty of unknowns to fix) I know that means giving up some space, or not having a perfect layout or not having the latest electronics or the newest sails. But in the end it's about spending time with my little kids and wife and getting away from work. So long as we don't sink and I'm not spending all my time fixing crap the family will be happy.

BS

[Steam Flyer]

... ... ...
Despite my propensity to buy something cheap and fix it up I'm coming to the conclusion that I just don't want to do that with a boat.
... ... ...

You are gaining wisdom.
Go smaller, go now. There will be stuff to fix anyway.

My advice is to place NO weight of value in any electronics. A boat can have the fanciest-schmanciest electronic gizmos and wizz-bang digital blah-blah and unless you RTF and spend a good deal of time learning to use it (which means being familiar with the basic task without electronic assistance) then it is more of a distraction than a help. Plus, in 2 years it will look dinosauric.

I wish I had a nickel for evey time I have continued to sail along in the direction I knew was right, while the owner/naviguesser/gimmick-guy disappeared into a screen and futzed around... often coming back with the wrong answer anyway, and almost always too late to have helped if it was the right answer. Meanwhile, everything is on an iPhone now.

Right now is a great time to be shopping for bargains on pretty good boats.

FB- Doug

[dinghydoc]

...find something of good initial quality in decent shape that doesn't need much work. (I'm sure there will be plenty of unknowns to fix)

You got that right. "It's a BOAT". But if you buy one with a good pedigree it will be worthy of your efforts. Happy hunting.

[Brodie]

Despite my propensity to buy something cheap and fix it up I'm coming to the conclusion that I just don't want to do that with a boat. I'm trying to find something of good initial quality in decent shape that doesn't need much work. (I'm sure there will be plenty of unknowns to fix) I know that means giving up some space, or not having a perfect layout or not having the latest electronics or the newest sails. But in the end it's about spending time with my little kids and wife and getting away from work. So long as we don't sink and I'm not spending all my time fixing crap the family will be happy

That's what I did - I wanted a boat I could get on and go sailing. Not that it didn't (and still doesn't) need work, but all the basics were there. That way the upgrades are (hopefully) fun, manageable projects along the way, not requirements that preclude you from getting out there.

[rodauthor]

BS . .I have been reading of your adventure over the past summer and now into winter . . I have seen glimpses mentioned of some sailing in your past but have you had the opportunity to actually spend time with your family on any bigger boats? Do you have friends or acquaintances that have taken you and the family out so that you know this is your calling in life?? As an encouragement there are the occasional bargain of a lifetime deal to be had . . you never know when you might find one . . .Lastly . .You asked about a 5' keel . . As you are aware . .Lake Michigan is at record lows and with today being the temperature it is many are predicting more gloom on the horizon . . as the Big Lake drops so do the river end lakes . . I see sand showing up more and more in Muskegon . .and there are rumors of larger boat being stuck trying to get in and out of their docks . .some of the floating condos that were launched in the spring had to be assisted out of a couple of the marinas . .so the shallower the better . .

[bluespruce]

BS . .I have been reading of your adventure over the past summer and now into winter . . I have seen glimpses mentioned of some sailing in your past but have you had the opportunity to actually spend time with your family on any bigger boats? Do you have friends or acquaintances that have taken you and the family out so that you know this is your calling in life?? As an encouragement there are the occasional bargain of a lifetime deal to be had . . you never know when you might find one . . .Lastly . .You asked about a 5' keel . . As you are aware . .Lake Michigan is at record lows and with today being the temperature it is many are predicting more gloom on the horizon . . as the Big Lake drops so do the river end lakes . . I see sand showing up more and more in Muskegon . .and there are rumors of larger boat being stuck trying to get in and out of their docks . .some of the floating condos that were launched in the spring had to be assisted out of a couple of the marinas . .so the shallower the better . .

To answer your question with a few words. No, I'm not 100% sure this is the right thing for us. But, we have been talking about doing this for a few years and making financial moves/sacrifices to be in a position where we can make it happen. I'm also getting to the age (40 and kids are 8&6) where I'm either jumping or abandoning the idea. Kids grow up fast. This is a great excuse for the family to spend time together while the kids are young enough that they still have to go with us. My kids are excited about the idea. My wife is supportive.

I've taken ASA 101/103 at Torresens. Last year I got my wife out for a day sail on a bigger boat and she liked it. My kids have never been out on a big boat. Could this be a terrible decision on my part? Financially... Maybe. But I figure if I buy a decent boat in decent shape at a reasonable price then if I need to sell it I may lose some money on the order of $5,000 on a $30,000 boat. (Provided I don't go crazy buying electronics, etc) if I buy a fixer upper and spend countless hours working on it I may not lose any money but I would have lost a bunch of time spent with family. We have decent, stable jobs so I'm not putting us in jeopardy. Going out and buying a new boat for us would be insane. (Lose my shirt if we had to resell a few years later)

I've been looking at boats for years. I think if I don't pull the trigger I will live with regret and wish I did do it. To me, the potential of loosing 5 grand or so at this point is just the potential price to pay for peace of mind. Yes, there are other costs like insurance, slip fee, hauling, etc but we will get at least a few seasons of use and some family time so to me those costs are like going on vacation.

The 5' draft is a concern with the falling lake levels. Like my kids, im hoping for a wicked winter with lots of snow.

BS

[Ajax]

BS, I am like you. I typically look for a bargain to fix up but with my Pearson, I aimed for the best boat I could afford, that fit my desires.
It was definitely the right move. I've been doing a lot of sailing and only a little work. It's been very rewarding.

I still got my boat for a song, comparitively speaking.

[Greever]

The Sabre's are supposed to be really well built boats.

SevenSundays has a 4' 11" draft, and I am worried about the falling water levels, but she can still get into the Torresen Marina with 18" to spare!

Sorry I lost track of the thread after launching this Summer, we could have gone sailing.

[Greever]

Well, I am going to say S2 because I am obviously biased. S2's are generally better built than Catalinas. Internal ballast isn't such a bad thing. Google "Catalina Smile".

What part of Michigan do you plan to sail?

My plan was to get a slip in Pentwater. i know Muskegon or Holland would probably be better because there is an inland lake to sail when Michigan is too rough. But we have quite a few friends in Pentwater on the weekends and i just like the small town and closeness of other things to do for the kids.We live in GR so it's not too bad of a drive to get to Pentwater.


There are quite a few S2's around so that definately gives more buying options.

I sail out of Muskegon, and live in Rockford.

Send me a PM and we can meet in Muskegon. You can check out my boat, and we can shoot the breeze about used boats. (our boat is stored at Torresens, on a custom trailer)

You are right about Muskegon being a good alternative when things get choppy on the big lake. Comes in handy when you don't want to take out noobs,elderly in the rough stuff. That said, Muskegon isn't as family friendly as Holland, or Grand Haven...

In San Diego I had no problems keeping up with all of those "faster" Catalina 30's.

Greeves, why don't you introduce the OP to Brian? Or, sell him SevenSundays and go back to being a pilot!
I'm going next Tuesday...

Sell SevenSundays? Hah! The Wifey would slit my nuts clean off!

I will be a builder for the next decade or two, and then get back into flying.

[rodauthor]

BS . .If you get into next summer without a ride . .I will invite you folks out for a day . .if you have sailed on Torresen's O'day 28 you were right next to my boat . . .it would also give you an idea of a 80's era boat . .

[Brodie]

Thought of another thing last night - while numbers like SA/D and D/L are helpful, they don't tell the whole story. Unless you are going to race a lot, don't worry about little differences between them. On paper, with a D/L over 400 and a SA/D of 14.5, my Sea Sprite 30 looks like she should be in the company of motorsailers. However she sails very well (with only a 110% genoa) and I have passed "bigger faster" boats including a Catalina 36 (with a big genny) and a Tartan 34c. It was funny to watch the 4 guys on the Tartan checking and tweaking and generally doing everything possible not to get passed by the girl nonchalantly singlehanding her smaller boat! Of course I get whipped by the sail Newport J/22s unless they are totally not paying attention but there are limits....

Find a boat you like, get a good surveyor, and DO IT. You won't regret it.

[kdh]

Brodie, I just started to appreciate the wonders of PHRF for evaluating how fast boats are. Just yesterday I made a bookmark to the NE ratings:

http://www.phrfne.or.../base_handicaps

I'm excited to use them here for the first time. Your boat has a rating of 216. The Catalina 36, 138. The J/22, 180.

The ratings are for average conditions, I guess. I find the modern production boat designs like the Catalina are very sticky in light air. I think. I'm a novice with these ideas. I've only done "two boats going the same direction" racing. Unless Hung and Booms and Mung are on the other boat I've done pretty well.

Edit: The Tartan is either 135 or 174. Seems all these boats should be sailing past you. What were the conditions like?

[Ishmael]

Brodie, I just started to appreciate the wonders of PHRF for evaluating how fast boats are. Just yesterday I made a bookmark to the NE ratings:

http://www.phrfne.or.../base_handicaps

I'm excited to use them here for the first time. Your boat has a rating of 216. The Catalina 36, 138. The J/22, 180.

The ratings are for average conditions, I guess. I find the modern production boat designs like the Catalina are very sticky in light air. I think. I'm a novice with these ideas. I've only done "two boats going the same direction" racing. Unless Hung and Booms and Mung are on the other boat I've done pretty well.

Edit: The Tartan is either 135 or 174. Seems all these boats should be sailing past you. What were the conditions like?

Shallow.

[kdh]

Ish, your PHRF, 114. This is so much fun!

[Anomaly2]

My handicap is me.

[bluespruce]

BS . .If you get into next summer without a ride . .I will invite you folks out for a day . .if you have sailed on Torresen's O'day 28 you were right next to my boat . . .it would also give you an idea of a 80's era boat . .

Thanks for the offer. I will either have a boat by summer or i'm giving up the idea and putting an addition on the house....

The classes i took at Torresen were on a J-30. When my wife and i went out i paid Torresen for a ride and that was on the J-30. We both agreed that a J-30 is not a good family boat with it's sit on the deck layout. I had never been on a sailboat until i was 35 years old. Always wanted to but didn't know anyone with a boat, family didn't sail, etc. This is not the easiest thing to get into without plunking down some cash or going the small daysailer route. (which we have and is cool for me but not the family time experiance we are looking for)

To date, i've checked out the following in person: a Catalina 30 (made an offer but the deal fell through on the sellers end), a CS 30 which had a laundry list of things that needed to be done and Pearson 28-2 which just wasn't quite big enough especially with the berths. Lots of boats out there and probably more that aren't even listed on yachtworld, sailboatlistings, etc. We've been to the Sailboat show in Chicago a few times and it's cool to see new boats but holy shit are they expensive!

BS

[Brodie]

Both times were on a beam to broad reach - coming back up the channel near Castle Hill. 10-15 kts for the Tartan, probably lighter for the Catalina.

I did also get schooled by a well sailed Albin Cumulus going upwind this summer. I don't know who the owner is, but I see him out all the time and is usually singlehanding like me. Doesn't usually wave so doesn't seem like the friendly type. Fin vs full keel was drastically apparent, he was both out-pointing and out-footing me (and my boat points pretty well for a full keeler, inboard shrouds, frac rig).

Bluespruce- new boat pricing is ridiculous! I paid $24.5k for my 28 year old Sea Sprite and I can't even imagine what the boat would cost new, with the equivalent of CE Ryder's built quality and current "standard" outfiting. Probably north of $200k if a comparatively spartan Harbor 30 is $150k.

[bluespruce]

Over the weekend I managed to get on the Sabre 30 and take a closer look. I'm liking the boat and it seems to meet what we think we need. I say "think we need" because i don't know what we need. kind of like buying a starter house and then figuring out what you really want as you live in the starter house a few years.

The berths are long enough for me. (I laid down on all of them)
I can stand up straight near the hatch. As I walk forward I need to duck a little bit. Bumped my head more than a few times but i suppose i'll get smarter about that.
I can sit on the head but not a lot of elbow room.

Generally the boat looks to be in good shape. I didn't notice any tell tale signs (water trail marks) of water leaks around the ports. I did notice a little water staining on the bulkheads by a few of the chain plates. Nothing major, nothing rotted. Engine compartment was pretty clean but didn't look spotless. Nothing leaking as far as i could tell. The engine is a Westerbeke. i don't know if that is good or bad.

The galley is tight with the step location but more room then I imagined from the pictures.

I couldn't see all of the deck because of the winter cover but what i could see didn't send up any red flags. (Don't know what i'm looking for exactly but things look as i expected) Non-slip didn't look very worn, stanchions didn't have big goobers of caulk, hardware wasn't cracked or broken, etc.

Everything looks pretty original as it probably came from the factory. It has a new Harken roller furler, a new auto-pilot, new dodger, bimini and winter cover. Otherwise it's original as far as i can tell. It has a nice cassette tape stereo so i can put those Boston and Pink Floyd Cassettes back into use. The instruments are original Datamarine instruments.

I was impressed by the quality.
Seacocks were bigger/heftier than I thought.
Interior wood work looked nice and was solid.
Quite a bit of storage space in different locations.
No pan or liner so I could see what was going on and get to the important pieces.
Good size winches. The two largest are self-tailing. I spun them all and they make consistent clicking sounds.
Generally "beefier" construction/fittings/etc then I noticed on Catalinas. (But the Catalinas certainly have more interior space)

My concerns:
The seller said the sails are the original lighly-used sails but they had been refurbished or re-cut recently. He says they are in good shape. They weren't on board so i could take a look at them for any wear. i'm thinking even if they are lightly used or refurbished with only partial use (northern climate) they probably are going to need to be replaced within a few years. (Im not racing so having the latest greatest high tech sails isn't important) Any way to tell from a sail in a bag what it's condition would be?

The stove looks to be pressurized alcohol. From researching, it sounds like thes may be potentially dangerous with flareups. Maybe its not a big deal but i have little kids and the thought of burning alcohol flying around or dripping makes me nervous. Looks like i could replace the stove with a non-pressurized alcohol model for around $500. Or convert to propane or CNG but that has other potential safety concerns. Are pressurized alcohol stoves really that bad?

Lifelines are plastic coated and had rust stains near the fittings. Lifelines seem important especially with little ones. From what I've read, rust stains are a bad sign.

The asking price is $32,900. There are other Sabre 30's (plus or minus a few model years) listed on Yachtworld for less (and a couple for more $$). But the ones listed aren't selling at the listing price and some of them have new sails, newer electronics, etc. (And those sellers willbe paying a borker fee when they sell) This is a northern climate freshwater boat and I do believe it was lightly used for most of it's life. I'm not 100% confident the family will all be on board with this adventure so i have to consider resale and don't want to pay too much. (Not trying to steal the boat but also not trying to throw money away) Any advice on appropriate offer would be appreciated. Everything would be subject to a survey and i'm not so in love with the boat that i can't walk away.

BS

[Tucky]

By the sounds of it you have found a boat worth looking at in detail, meaning offer, counter offer, survey, etc. I think a Sabre, especially an older non-pan boat, is a cut above a lot of what you will see out there.

[rodauthor]

Well as for the sail thing . . .most feel the sail material to see if it is still . . ."crisp" . .if you haven't had the opportunity to feel a piece of new sailcloth then you may not fully understand . . but sail cloth is processed in many ways so that a normal piece of cloth . .soft and plyable . .becomes treated . .heated . .shrunk . .until new it has a crisp and solid feel to it . . as you sail the flutter slowly breaks down this rigidity and you have the soft feel of a hanky or cotton sheet . .that is an indicator that the sailcloth has been flexed (blown out) too many time to hold a proper shape . .and the next stage is when it starts to rip from fatigue and uv breakdown . . If you ever get a chance stop and meet Jim at Bluffton Bay Sails . .just east of Seaway Dr on Hackley . . he can show you in just a few minutes what the difference between good and bad is . . and he is a part of the support that you may need later

[Brodie]

What year is the boat?

[steele]

One option for the sails is to see if a local loft will let you pull them out of the bags on their floor. Otherwise it is hard to tell if they are any good. Choose a place that you would take your business to in the future. Mine will even let people bring their sails in overnight to dry out before winter storage. Old but workable sails are not a deal killer.

The pressurized stove is an issue, my expereince was with a cooktop with no oven, I used it once, almost singed the curtains, and bought a origo style non-pressurized model. Great upgrade.

The liflines are also an issue, but many are moving to high end rope instead of wire. It is said to be more of a do-it-yourself job and a nice upgrade.

Compared to most boat problems these are minor issues and will not preclude using the boat as you upgrade. If the sails are toast you should be able to get decent estimates from a local loft or even at one of the offshore internet places and use it as a bargaining tool.

[panther]

bob mentioned Cal 29. friends had one, and it worked very well on all fronts. buddy boated with them and their 94 lb dog for 8 seasons. pretty easy keeper. kinda deep draft, but what a sailer. good headroom, storage, layout, accessibility, etc.

might check out john holtrop's fuzzy logic boat buying guide.

[bluespruce]

What year is the boat?

1985 mk2

[boomer]

I think a Sabre, especially an older non-pan boat, is a cut above a lot of what you will see out there.

Gotta agree, if you want a well built boat your on the right track with Sabre.

[Innocent Bystander]

Agree a Sabre 30 is a solid boat and a cut above many others.

On the sails, find out how they were "refurbed" If it was the "Lemauney (sp?) process" where the sails are cleaned and "re resined" , they will look clean and feel crisp but aren't really much better than when they went in. I tried it about 20 years ago for a 30 footer and the results were not very impressive. Probably gave me 1-2 years of extra life but in retrospect, I should have used the money toward new sails instead. In a negotiation, 28 year old sails are drop cloths. You want to trust the lifelines. Replacement with uncoated SS or dyneema line is appropriate.

Pressurized alcohol stoves are a PIA but have served well for years. If it works, then you're OK. If not, I've become a fan of the Origo non pressurized cook tops. Adding propane is tough without surgery to add a proper locker.

Westerbeke is a quality small engine and the company is still in business.

Price seem pretty high in this market. Can you tell if the seller is serious about selling the boat? I know some owners who hang a for sale sign on their boat every fall and take it down when they paint the bottom in the spring. If someone gives them a "make me sell" offer, they will sell but they don't negotiate.

[monsoon]

What year is the boat?

1985 mk2

blue,

I've owned a Sabre 30 for 7 years. Overall they're very well built, good sailing little boats. Sabre cut a couple of little corners in building their boats, so here are few things to check on. Sabre did not put solid glass under the in/through deck fittings, so carefully check the core around the chainplates for wetness (especially if you see some evidence of water intrusion inside the boat, as you mention). Even if there is some wet core, this is not a big deal to repair as long as it is not too extensive. Also, the 30 has a deck-stepped mast, but you should carefully check the mast step in the sump under the wooden beam that supports the mast. If this gets soft, its a big repair. Also check the tabbing where the bulkhead meet the hull.

The Westerbeast is a fine engine. I've the older Volvo in mine and the W is generally considered the better option.

From how you describe the sails, I'd say you'll need to factor in new sails fairly soon (I spent about $4k on a main and 130 a few years ago).

Finally, the asking price of low $30's is extremely wishful thinking on the part of the owner. I spoke with a broker recently abut listing my boat (1980, but sounds as though it is in better shape than the one you looked at, and the MkI and MkII are essentially the same boat, MkIII very different). Anyway, this broker, suggested a listing price for mine in the low, low $20's. He showed me the selling prices of all recent Sabre 30 sales. Most sales were in high teens to low 20's for MkIs and IIs.

Too bad you're not in New England, I'd have you take a look at mine. Good luck with the search.

[bluespruce]

Agree a Sabre 30 is a solid boat and a cut above many others.

On the sails, find out how they were "refurbed" If it was the "Lemauney (sp?) process" where the sails are cleaned and "re resined" , they will look clean and feel crisp but aren't really much better than when they went in. I tried it about 20 years ago for a 30 footer and the results were not very impressive. Probably gave me 1-2 years of extra life but in retrospect, I should have used the money toward new sails instead. In a negotiation, 28 year old sails are drop cloths. You want to trust the lifelines. Replacement with uncoated SS or dyneema line is appropriate.

Pressurized alcohol stoves are a PIA but have served well for years. If it works, then you're OK. If not, I've become a fan of the Origo non pressurized cook tops. Adding propane is tough without surgery to add a proper locker.

Westerbeke is a quality small engine and the company is still in business.

Price seem pretty high in this market. Can you tell if the seller is serious about selling the boat? I know some owners who hang a for sale sign on their boat every fall and take it down when they paint the bottom in the spring. If someone gives them a "make me sell" offer, they will sell but they don't negotiate.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the stove and lifelines. I'll ask about the sail reconditioning.

The seller is older and he seems intent on selling but it also sounds like he may not need the money. If that's the case he might be content to sit and wait a while for a buyer that will give him close to his asking price. Also, since it is now snowing here (a little bit but not nearly enough) he would probably gamble to rideit out until spring thinking he'd get more then. In the end, given my situation with a possible resale in a few years I'm not willing to overpay to much. If it was the perfect boat and I knew I was going to hang on to it for 10 years then maybe I would make a higher offer.

[Brodie]

The condition of your prospective Sabre sounds very much like what my SS30 was like when I bought her. Mine is a 1984, original everything, no upgrades, solid boat. The original sails (Thurston) were tired, I used them the first season but got new ones (Jasper & Bailey) this past year. About $4500 for a full batten main and a 110%. The original main was OK and could have gone another couple of years but the jib was toast. I replaced all running rigging and added new self tailing primaries the first year. Sails the 2nd year, and next year is an autopilot and new lifelines. After that probably new standing rigging and start working on the interior systems (plumbing, lighiting etc). Canvas, repainting spars, bottom job further down the road. Engine is a Universal diesel and runs great, parts available from Westerbeke so very similar to what you have.

Build quality of the Sabre and the Sea Sprite are pretty similar. Sabre is still in business which is an advantage. I've been in the Sabre factory and they do good work and I think they are pretty good about supporting older boats. My boat was originally listed in Dec '09 at $35,500. I bought her in Dec '10 for $24,500. I agree with monsoon that the asking price is way too high. Sounds to me like the owner is happy to sail the boat in the summer and if he manages to get someone to bite on the asking price he'll sell. Hopefully he can be talked into reason if the boat comes away with a good survey. Keep us posted and pics would be great if you get to see the boat.

[bluespruce]

What year is the boat?

1985 mk2

blue,

I've owned a Sabre 30 for 7 years. Overall they're very well built, good sailing little boats. Sabre cut a couple of little corners in building their boats, so here are few things to check on. Sabre did not put solid glass under the in/through deck fittings, so carefully check the core around the chainplates for wetness (especially if you see some evidence of water intrusion inside the boat, as you mention). Even if there is some wet core, this is not a big deal to repair as long as it is not too extensive. Also, the 30 has a deck-stepped mast, but you should carefully check the mast step in the sump under the wooden beam that supports the mast. If this gets soft, its a big repair. Also check the tabbing where the bulkhead meet the hull.

The Westerbeast is a fine engine. I've the older Volvo in mine and the W is generally considered the better option.

From how you describe the sails, I'd say you'll need to factor in new sails fairly soon (I spent about $4k on a main and 130 a few years ago).

Finally, the asking price of low $30's is extremely wishful thinking on the part of the owner. I spoke with a broker recently abut listing my boat (1980, but sounds as though it is in better shape than the one you looked at, and the MkI and MkII are essentially the same boat, MkIII very different). Anyway, this broker, suggested a listing price for mine in the low, low $20's. He showed me the selling prices of all recent Sabre 30 sales. Most sales were in high teens to low 20's for MkIs and IIs.

Too bad you're not in New England, I'd have you take a look at mine. Good luck with the search.

Thanks for the list of things to check. Nice to hear from an owner with the same boat.

It's deceiving looking at asking prices on yachtworld. Who knows how much they actually sell for but a seller can easily throw his boat in the middle of the range and think that is what its worth. Sailboat listings.com at least shows the date the ad was placed so the ones with high prices that have been listed for a year plus are probably not budging on price or aren't really intent on selling. In the end, convincing a seller their boat/car/house is worth less then they are asking doesn't usually work until they sat with it for sale for a while or turned down other offers.

Where are you in New England? Trucking can't be that much...

BS

[bluespruce]

Keep us posted and pics would be great if you get to see the boat.

The listing with some pics is further up the thread in posting #237.

I got a few picks when i was out there but they are crappy.

BS

[U20guy2]

Sabre are nice boats I missed a super crazy nice one decked out to the 9's when we were looking. The broker laughed when I called the day it popped up. He said he had over 100 calls on it already and it was sold before they even had it posted up. He said the buyer offered over ask which by the way was 50K back in 2007.

Again this boat was CHERRY!!!!!!!! New set of cruising sails and a new set of carbon racing sails. Had lots of high quality interior modifications vacuflush head, AC unit under the vberth etc. As I said it was a special kinda of boat I had not seen in the year I spent looking.

Even flew from CA to Washington DC and looked at a Tartan 28 and visited some family.

In the end we jumped on a boat right around the corner from us not as nice of a sailor as the Sabre and not from the same level of build quality - but it checked all the major items on the list - in great condition very well cared for - good interior for family mini cruising etc. 1986 Ericson 28 again only reason we went with the Ericson was it was in fantastic condition and at home. So hard to not consider it. That was back in 2007. Since the purchase we have replaced all the standing rigging added a backstay adjuster - replaced the original traveler with a custom built one from the same company that supplies deck gear to Catalina very good stuff!!!! Heavy!! But VERY VERY good stuff!

Replaced all the plastic covered life lines - added a custom dodger set to wifes line of vision vs my height on the second companion way step etc. We have had lots of fun with it - deep keel and rudder has made it a decent sailor despite its fairly tender sailing behavior. No way I would get a short keel on that boat.

Engine is a 12hp Universal super cool little engine but the boat is under powered thats my major complaint. Out side if that our plan is to just enjoy it use it with the kids and friends do some little cruising locally around the Bay. Nice size very easy to handle solo and to find parking in busy places!!! 30ft was my max length for the shopping plan. More or less to fit the smallest slip at the club and to keep it easy to manage solo or when my other half is dealing with kids below etc.

No doubt as the kids get a little older we will have more fun and time on it but right now 3yr old and 8month old we have been out a couple of times with the kids short sails in very warm mellow conditions jib sailing only. I've gone out with some guy friends when we get a pass to escape for a bit and flown the kite and had fun brushing the dust off some sailing skills.

[U20guy2]

A dock mate had a nice little Pearson 27 about the same age as our Ericson that we did a few club cruises with. The Pearsons are very good sailing boats wife and I had to dust off our racing skills and whip the Ericson hard to match their Pearson 27 on the cruises we did. However we were easily hauling WAY WAY more interior and fancy stuff vs the neighbor with this very basic interior Pearson. Pretty sure the wife has packed over 1000lbs of cruisy nice stuff on the boat. I don't mind as long as she is happy and enjoying the time on the water. Our other boat at the time was a Ultimate 20 so I had no illusions of racing the Ericson nor interest in trying to race it LOL. However just for giggles we did a race with the BBQ strapped to the back - the dog on board etc. We even got it up to 6.6 knots with the cruising Asymmetric kite in about 25knots! I've never seen such a deep hole behind a boat before ha ha!!!
All in fun
Keep looking!!!! When you find the boat you will know all the boxes will check easy and you will feel pretty good about finding it. We had zero conflicts after looking at the Ericson close to home - priced right - Fantastic condition well cared for etc.

[shanedennis]

Hey BS, I'm late to this thread, but here is my two cents, a few last thoughts before you sign for the boat.

You said your family might not be on board with the adventure. Does you wife love the boat? If your wife loves the boat then you are going to get to spend more time and money on the boat and spend more time sailing. I knew I found the right boat when my Wifey's eyes lit up the first time she stepped aboard. Try and find one you love too. Don't settle, it is a buyers market and there is one out there for you.

Believe all the hype about the cost of boat ownership. If you buy a boat at the high end of your price range you might have to sell your oldest child to keep the damn thing. Expect to pay at least $8k a year just to hang on to a 30 footer. After a month sailing it your are going to think of $10k of improvements you just have to have even if the boat was in Bristol condition when you bought it.

Buy local. With a $25k budget you are going to lose a lot of boat by shipping it from one of the coasts. I looked at some boats that looked great on Yachtworld but were wrecks when I saw them in person. Glad I did not spend too many hours driving to see them. There are plenty of great boats for sale on Lake Michigan. And the boats for sail on Lake Michigan will, in general, be suited to Lake Michigan.

Good luck in your adventure. I hope your family finds the boat of their dreams. Take them sailing as much as possible. Anchor out in crystal clear water of Lake Michigan and take them all swimming. Reef early and conservatively and don't worry when other guys pass you. Visualize their wives at home with the plumber.

[U20guy2]

$25K was my budget and the 28-30ft range the Great Lakes had the most of any other market in that size range. They also had the largest number of boats from the various major brands too!

My top boats of interest mainly due to cabin vs sailing performance were the Tartan 28- and 30's the double spreader rigs on those just got my racer blood flowing.
The pricy and very respected and good looking and very good sailing Sabre 28 and 30 though they were nearly impossible to find given I was targeting 85 and newer.

If there had been any Olson 911's on the market I would have paid to ship it given I know those boats very well and they are FANTASTIC boats however many have been sailed hard and put away wet for a long time. So use caution with those!

Islander and Ericson were more or less my solid back up branded boats given there were plenty of them around to keep an eye out for a really nice one priced right etc.

We are in California where Catalina's are a dime a dozen neither I or the wife had any interest in them didn't even look at any of them. Wife is a sailor too so if she says no - it ain't happening.

Good news is she is also a racer and very competitive and shortly after getting the tubby slow comfy Ericson she mentioned that some day it would be nice to have a FAST sled;-) So perhaps one day we will fly to Croatia cruise the islands on a Pogo 10.5 sign the paper work and ship it home. LOL A guy can dream

For sure!!! Wife must like the boat!!!! No sign off from the wife regarding the boat and your highly advised to keep looking if the boat is one of those cant pass up boats have another sailor go through the boat with your wife and show her why its one of those once in a life time cant pass up boats. If she still isn't into the boat as hard as it is keep looking!

[monsoon]

Thanks for the list of things to check. Nice to hear from an owner with the same boat.

It's deceiving looking at asking prices on yachtworld. Who knows how much they actually sell for but a seller can easily throw his boat in the middle of the range and think that is what its worth. Sailboat listings.com at least shows the date the ad was placed so the ones with high prices that have been listed for a year plus are probably not budging on price or aren't really intent on selling. In the end, convincing a seller their boat/car/house is worth less then they are asking doesn't usually work until they sat with it for sale for a while or turned down other offers.

Where are you in New England? Trucking can't be that much...

BS

I sent you a pm... maybe we can work something out.

[dolphinmaster]

BS . .I have been reading of your adventure over the past summer and now into winter . . I have seen glimpses mentioned of some sailing in your past but have you had the opportunity to actually spend time with your family on any bigger boats? Do you have friends or acquaintances that have taken you and the family out so that you know this is your calling in life?? As an encouragement there are the occasional bargain of a lifetime deal to be had . . you never know when you might find one . . .Lastly . .You asked about a 5' keel . . As you are aware . .Lake Michigan is at record lows and with today being the temperature it is many are predicting more gloom on the horizon . . as the Big Lake drops so do the river end lakes . . I see sand showing up more and more in Muskegon . .and there are rumors of larger boat being stuck trying to get in and out of their docks . .some of the floating condos that were launched in the spring had to be assisted out of a couple of the marinas . .so the shallower the better . .

To answer your question with a few words. No, I'm not 100% sure this is the right thing for us. But, we have been talking about doing this for a few years and making financial moves/sacrifices to be in a position where we can make it happen. I'm also getting to the age (40 and kids are 8&6) where I'm either jumping or abandoning the idea. Kids grow up fast. This is a great excuse for the family to spend time together while the kids are young enough that they still have to go with us. My kids are excited about the idea. My wife is supportive.

I've taken ASA 101/103 at Torresens. Last year I got my wife out for a day sail on a bigger boat and she liked it. My kids have never been out on a big boat. Could this be a terrible decision on my part? Financially... Maybe. But I figure if I buy a decent boat in decent shape at a reasonable price then if I need to sell it I may lose some money on the order of $5,000 on a $30,000 boat. (Provided I don't go crazy buying electronics, etc) if I buy a fixer upper and spend countless hours working on it I may not lose any money but I would have lost a bunch of time spent with family. We have decent, stable jobs so I'm not putting us in jeopardy. Going out and buying a new boat for us would be insane. (Lose my shirt if we had to resell a few years later)

I've been looking at boats for years. I think if I don't pull the trigger I will live with regret and wish I did do it. To me, the potential of loosing 5 grand or so at this point is just the potential price to pay for peace of mind. Yes, there are other costs like insurance, slip fee, hauling, etc but we will get at least a few seasons of use and some family time so to me those costs are like going on vacation.

The 5' draft is a concern with the falling lake levels. Like my kids, im hoping for a wicked winter with lots of snow.

BS

Jimminy Christmas, don't overthink it. There is no way to rationalize your choice, make the best one and go get it. More draft is better. Fear about bumping some sand is lame. Find it, bump it if you have to, but sail elsewhere.

You'll appreciate the overall capabilities of the boat going to weather with adequate draft.

[Tom Ray]

On the sails, find out how they were "refurbed" If it was the "Lemauney (sp?) process" where the sails are cleaned and "re resined" , they will look clean and feel crisp but aren't really much better than when they went in. ...

Clean and crisp is nice and a proper refurb will involve some restitching, particularly high wear areas like batten pockets, etc.

But the bottom line is, they have not invented a process to unstretch Dacron. Stretching is a one-way street with no return.

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
You'll appreciate the overall capabilities of the boat going to weather with adequate draft.

Until there's not adequate depth

Agreed with the 'not over thinking' props though. Just keep looking hard, when you find it the answer will become increasingly obvious. This includes looking long and hard at boats already under consideration.... no matter how rigorously inspected-detected-injected-reflected there will be surprises.

That Sabre is great boat for what you want to do. Just have a realistic picture of costs.

And yeah, reconditioned sails are bullshit. Still blown-out about-to-rip rags, but nice and white and crinkly. Factor in the cost of new (or GOOD used) sails!

FB- Doug

[memopad]

No interest in a Ranger 28? Can be yours on a nice trailer for less than 1/3rd the cost of the Sabre It's a nice boat but I finally figured out I don't need a 28ft boat with a cabin to go out and sail a couple hours by my self.

[SpongeDeckSquareFoil]

Jimminy Christmas, don't overthink it. There is no way to rationalize your choice, make the best one and go get it. More draft is better. Fear about bumping some sand is lame. Find it, bump it if you have to, but sail elsewhere.

You'll appreciate the overall capabilities of the boat going to weather with adequate draft.

For some areas of the lakes a deeper draft can have a huge impact on sailing. The issue is not that you will bump into sand, it's more that the marina or harbor might not have sufficient water to float the boat. Or it might float, but you can't get out into the open water.

[dolphinmaster]

Jimminy Christmas, don't overthink it. There is no way to rationalize your choice, make the best one and go get it. More draft is better. Fear about bumping some sand is lame. Find it, bump it if you have to, but sail elsewhere.

You'll appreciate the overall capabilities of the boat going to weather with adequate draft.

For some areas of the lakes a deeper draft can have a huge impact on sailing. The issue is not that you will bump into sand, it's more that the marina or harbor might not have sufficient water to float the boat. Or it might float, but you can't get out into the open water.

No fun there, becoming a dockside wannabe sailor with a loud wife and bellbottoms.

[TekkaMaki]

You might look at a Laser 28.