412 replies to this topic

[jim lee]

If anyone's interested, we're starting up Dart #3. I'll be posting pix of the build as things progress on facebook. I was thinking about posting them here.. But I'm guessing I'm probably way over my quota for annoying the world of sailing anarchy.


Skin coating the Deck.

-jim lee

[pseudo]

If anyone's interested, we're starting up Dart #3. I'll be posting pix of the build as things progress on facebook. I was thinking about posting them here.. But I'm guessing I'm probably way over my quota for annoying the world of sailing anarchy.


Skin coating the Deck.

-jim lee

I would enjoy seeing the build here. Not on facebook.

[TBone]

Bring it on, JL! The disinterested can find some other corner of the sandbox.

[DoRag]

Oh, great. Pics of illegal aliens making plastic junk.

Buy an ad, you moron, and support SA.

[jim lee]

Ya' see? You never know what way to jump around here.

-jim lee

[unShirley]

Ignore DoRag. The rest of us do.

What did you finally get for the LCD that you were lowering the price on daily?

[tekton]

Hell yeah, Jim and crew!!

Let me pile up some cash so this one doesn't go by auction.



and DoRag, STFU. You're a tedious prick; your sigline proves it.

[Editor]

bring it, jim! do rag is clearly insane...

[hard aground]

If the boss says do it, then do it. Looking forward to seeing the pictures too.

[us7070]

we love pictures of boats being built.

[jim lee]

All right, give me a bit. They just finished skinning the deck I'll go out and snap a pic.

-jim lee

[PurpleOnion]

Ya' see? You never know what way to jump around here.

-jim lee

Keep posting and ignore those who see imaginary things or vent their hostility towards external issue through a sailing website.

[Dave]

You pricing list didn't mention a carbon fiber spar package. How much for that upgrade?

[jim lee]

Ok, Deck mold uncovered cleaned up and the beginnings of being waxed..




Another look, pretty much all ready for..




Gelcoat. This was basically a hold your breath run, snap a picture and get back to an air supply quick. The guys shooting this basically wear something like space suits when applying gelcoat. Smell is horrible!

-jim lee

[jim lee]

Skin coat going on. Skin coat is a necessary evil for now. Its a 1oz mat & resin shell that toughens up the gelcoat, fills in the smaller details and gives a bonding layer to the infused laminate.




The problem with skin coat is it has to be done, "open mold" IE by hand. Just plain nasty job.

Of course the other problem is that it really needs to be applied by people that know what they are doing. You can not allow any air bubbles and you do not want too much resin in there.




A nasty, smelly, finicky job. Many of the parts we build can skip this step, but the hull and deck need their skin coats. Especially the deck with all its fine filigree of nonskid etc.




All skinned.

This all went on this AM. I don't know how fast this project is going to go. For now its about getting the plastic bits built, assembled, and out of the way. -And- time & materials logged. Many of the smaller bit, bulkheads etc. are already built and in stock. But there's a bunch of other related and unrelated projects going on so things could be somewhat start & stop. Unless someone actually buys this boat.. Then everything will change and things will go into high gear.

-jim lee

[Windward]

Fun! Keep the build photos coming!

[usa 917]

Cool boats don't stop

[Steam Flyer]

... ...
But I'm guessing I'm probably way over my quota for annoying the world of sailing anarchy.

... ...

I hope you're kidding.

Bring it! We love boat building pics, especially when it's a cool boat too

FB- Doug

[narecet]

Go for it Jim.

[Trendsetter]

as a former boat builder, I love seeing pictures of the work being done, and also a good reminder anytime I think I might want to go build a boat I just need to look at the pictures above and be remind myself NO

good luck on the build

[hobot]

I love the smell of laminating resin in the morning!

Thanks for sharing.

[jim lee]

We're starting the dry-stack for deck #3. For those that are new to this, the fancy way to build composite stuff today is to infuse it under vacuum. You put in all your bits dry, glass, core what have you. Bag it with a vacuum bag that has plumbing for air and resin under it, pull a vacuum and shoot in the resin.

The part where your putting in all your bits is called dry-stacking.


Early on for first layer..



About lunch time..



Right now we're working on the windows. The winch bases, traveler base, rudder area, mast base.. All these get doublers under them. The windows also get the glass doubled because there's no core there and you need some thickness for strength where the window cutouts are.

A big part of this project is getting what Leif put on the drawings, with what I'm carrying around in my head, along with what the guys remember about deck #2 all down on paper.




This is a wire block. As some of you know, Darts have the navigation & electronics wire runs built into the deck itself. These wire blocks create the interface points where power goes in and equipment attaches. Part of the dry-stack of the deck includes these wire blocks. So we're making them up now.



Here's a look at the deck for Dart #2. This is the wire & blocks going into the core.


So hopefully the first layer of glass will be in by the end of today. Next is core & wiring. I'm hopeful that the core won't be so tough this time because we spent a lot of time on deck #2 making up core templates. (Fingers crossed)

Now a couple other points.

Dave : No carbon spar pricing. This is simply because there is currently no carbon spar package. We did do a carbon rig test, but it did not turn out well. Long painful story short, we ordered a custom Forte rig. Mostly it fit on the boat, we didn't notice that the boom was too long 'till the first jybe.. You'd think we'd try tacking first. Anyhow, that was easy to fix the main problem was..

A ) After weighting everything it only gained us 5lbs compared to the Al rig.

But the worst problem was.

B ) The thing was a telephone pole! There was no way in the world to bend it. We could have folded the hull around it before anything would move on that mast. So out the window goes much of our sail control.

Off went the carbon pole, back on went the Al mast, and everyone was happy.

So, if you order a Dart and want a carbon rig? We'll give you this one for no extra charge. Just to get it out of our way.


Now, the future of Dart #3..

No one has come forward to buy this boat. Right now, unless someone comes forward, the plan is to go as far as a hull and deck and stop. If you are thinking about putting down cash and want a boat for THIS summer, you best move on it. Why? Because there are a few long lead time items that need to be ordered NOW to finish this machine. For example the rig. These parts are not going to be ordered until an owner steps up. So, if your thinking about it, stop reading SA posts and get on the phone.

-jim lee

[jkdubs808]

Is this one also gonna have the sprit and a masthead ayso?

Love the Dart, Jim. Will be following your builds with great anticipation.

[jim lee]

Masthead ayso is standard. Sprit is up to miss future owner. I'm betting it'll have a sprit as well though.

-jim lee

[StayinStrewn]

Good luck with the next sale!

[jim lee]

Quick update..


Fitting core for the deck.


Like framing a house, it starts off so fast. Grab templates, cut big sheets of core lay 'em in.



All the tan core you're seeing here is double cut Corecell foam. We did a -lot- of core testing to come up with this. The saw cut green colored core was cheaper by far, but ate up more resin than the cost benifit. Ended up with a heavier boat and.. The stuff doesn't bond well to the glass. You could peel the glass right off the core. The saw cuts also caused all sorts of resin flow problems during infusion. No more saw cut. No more green core.



The second best core was Divincell foam. The mechanical properties are about the same & it sticks to the glass well. But, it just doesn't infuse as well as the Corecell foam. This is why we use Corecell almost exclusively in our boats.

The dark core in the pictures is high density core for high load areas. Sail tracks, winch bases, OB & rudder mounts. Stuff like that.



After all the easy big stuff is in, we shift into the small filler bits. If this was a boat with a liner, we wouldn't need to do this step because no one ever sees the core. But, for this type of machine, the backside -is- your interior. Every nook and cranny is filled. This makes for a really nice part, but it takes F O R E V E R!



Filled in. The boys will be doing the small bits for the rest of the week and probably more. Once all the core is set in we can instal the wiring. But that's a story for another time.

-jim lee

[Jury Rigged]

Thanks for sharing this build, Jim. It's motivating me on my own design/build (an International One Meter (IOM) R/C boat).

[jim lee]

What have we today..


Core strips along the inside of the cockpit seat area. the number correspond to the angle that the sides are milled. Finicky stuff!



The 1/2" thick solid block of glass that goes in the area between the mast and the compression post. This should ensure that the cabin top will never fail for lack of compression strength.



All the fiddly core bits for the companionway door frame & secondary winch bases. Details details details. After awhile you begin to think boat building is nothing but details. If you want it strong & light, your margins for error get very small. So, all the details must be attended to. This takes a lot of time. We're currently figuring about 136 man hours just to drystack the deck.

The wire ways are beginning to be laid out and routered. When the wire ways start going in, we're nearing the end of the coring process.



Stern light wire way laid out.

Notice all the notes. Remember I said we were doing documentation for this build? What's going on is that during the build for the first two boats, we wrote a database of all the parts, assemblies & vendors for putting these things together. This is wonderful for accounting and purchasing, its not so good of a tool for tracking how everything goes together. We needed some how to track a LOT of details that anyone building this could look at. An internal build web site is what we came up with. Perfect fit for accessing masses of data and there's no real learning curve.

For now the fastest way to get info onto the build log is to snap pix of the parts and the sharpy build notes we scrawl all over and just upload those. Someday maybe I can go back and clean things up, but at least we have the info locked in.



The notes get all elaborate. One of the tough things is that today's notes, while we're in the zone, may be ambiguous by the time we build the next one. Better say too much than too little. Digital pix are free..

Continue....

[jim lee]

Wire junction. Slick little deal we came up with for doing a "T" in the wiring.



Power feed plate. We came up with these for making the connections to the deck. The wires are soldered to the back side and the threads are blind, so there's no contact between the wires and the outside environment. Pretty slick huh?



This is what we're shooting for as the end product. This is the power feed section for Dart #2. You have the ground bus on the right the power terminals on the left. The main power for the boat comes up from the keel area, where the battery is, to the switch panel, not shown, to these connections. From there you can see the power feed for the nav lights & electronics attach to the underside of the deck. This make a very clean electrical setup with no wires visible in the cabin.

That's it for now, I'll be off for a week or so and hopefully the deck'll be ready to shoot by the time I get back.

-jim lee

[Amati]

Rock on, Jim.

[jim lee]

Evnin' everyone here's the latest..


In deck wiring going in. This is pretty much where we were last time I think. I'd set up the little connector boards, now the guys are installing everything into the core.



Core is finally complete with wires installed. Actually the glass doublers under winches & ports are on there as well..



This is what the deck coring step feels like.. (I was out of town and told them to keep a photo log, this is what I found.)



Second layer of glass starts to go on.



More of the second layer of glass..

[jim lee]

The part's about 1/2 way complete.



All done! Tomorrow we'll pull the bag off and we can start finishing the back side.


We're going to have to shift projects for a bit because we need to work on our carbon boom mold. We've come up with a pretty slick method for molding infused carbon tubes. Our 2"x4" rectangle boom section is gathering interest, so we need to jump on make up a ful length mold for it.

-jim lee

[jim lee]

A little more today..


Stripping off the peelply.



Cabin top. The darker stripes are doublers and seam overlaps.



From the cabin looking back over the cockpit bottom.

We found, when we built Dart #1, that the cockpit floor was a little too "bouncy". This is why we added the extra thick core you can see here under the cockpit. For almost no extra weight you can just about dance elephants in the cockpit without flexing.




Cockpit side, notice the fine filigree of core tiling to make up these compound curves.



Sanding the backside to prepare for putty & paint.

-jim lee

[MSA]

Jim putty and paint.. on the underside of a deck. I am just a little curious?

Would you not save man hours, dollars on material and weight by skipping this on the underside?

At maximum i would have thought a cleanup/light sand and a thin white coat to brighten the boat up is needed.

By the way, I think the boat looks cool. Maybe you should Investigate a Carbon Stick similar to a Melges 24 (obviously a slightly larger section). Ally just doesn't do boats justice in this day and age.

[jim lee]

Why putty and paint?

True, putty and paint costs in weight and man hours. Quite a bit of man hours in fact. But, you really should paint the inside if for nothing else, than to protect the vinyl ester resin that the boat's made of. If you just spray in gelcoat, it kinda' ends up looking like painted rags when your finished. And, the rough surface eats up a lot of gelcoat. Now, a good thing is that the putty is lighter than gelcoat. By filling most of the hollows of the glass with a thin layer of putty we end up using less gelcoat and getting a much nicer finish. In this machine the backside of your glasswork is you interior, so we'd like it to look as nice as possible.

And carbon...

When we come up with a carbon solution that we are happy with, we'll offer an upgrade path for those that would like to upgrade.

-jim lee

[MSA]

Thanks for the reply Jim,
If I, hypothetically, was to buy one, could i request less internal fairing and only a light coat of paint?? for the purposes' of saving $$ and weight?

Also I like the infused wiring Idea, I understand the Pro's but have you a solution for issues of burnt out wires etc? I only ask this as I have had to replace wires in hard to reach places and it was a pain in the ass..

As for the Carbon Mast, would it be fair to say you are testing your infused tubes on Booms building your way up to a Mast?

[jim lee]

If I, hypothetically, was to buy one, could i request less internal fairing and only a light coat of paint?? for the purposes' of saving $$ and weight?

Naw, wouldn't buy you enough to do custom job. We're talking a total putty weight of less than 4 lbs. (yes we measured it)

If a wire fails, your going to have to run a new wire along the hull. Every other boat has external wiring, so it'll just be like that.

As for the carbon projects; It is pretty fair to say, we're working on booms now. But, there is no timeline for this. Its one of those "It'll be done when its done" things. We think we're on to something really cool with the infused carbon stuff, but getting the technique down for doing this is very time consuming.

Thanks for the interest, if you bought one, how would we get it to Perth?

-jim lee

[MSA]

There in lies the issue Jim..

[jim lee]

Time to finish up the deck..


Here we are with all the putty sanded and ready to paint. A few fillets and a very very light scree(?) to reduce roughness.



Taping off the areas where bulkheads will attach. We tab the bulkheads in with fiberglass tape. So, if at all possible, you want to glass to bare material, not gelcoat.



Painting starts. One guy's running the spray gun while another is busy mixing up fresh gelcoat refills. Mostly I hid in the office and pretended to do important office things.



Mid leap, too bad the picture came out blurry.

When doing gelcoat, its important to remove any taping while the gelcoat's still runny. If you wait too long and it begins to set up, the gelcoat will tear when you pull the tape. Makes a big mess. Now remember, we have wiring in this deck so there are sacrificial screws in the connectors to keep out the gelcoat. Before everything begins to set up we have to loosen the screws. Hence the leap into wet paint to get at them.



And in the end? The deck's all done and ready to trim up and install on a hull. It turned out really nice!

So the plan is after updating paperwork, and knocking out some other small projects.. We'll set up the hull mold and build a hull for this thing.

At least that's the plan right now, things tend to change.

<salesman>
Once again : If your thinking about getting a Dart for summer, there is currently an 8 week lead time on the mast. We don't plan on ordering a mast until the boat is bought. So, if you want a Dart this summer, you have to act now.
</salesman>

And if no one orders it? I'm keeping this one for myself!

-jim lee

[StayinStrewn]

looking good! Nice to see the humor along with your build photos....and btw, i'm sure you can find a way to ship to PerthB)

[tekton]

Having examined Hull #1 at the Seattle Boat Show, my lasting impression was that this boat is quite thoroughly well-done. It is replete with careful detailing and thoughtful ideas everywhere you look. Colin shared a solid hour of his time to talk about the choices in design, equipment, and sailability. By that, I mean that it's a capable and tunable boat, yet still able to be fun to sail without involving pain-in-the-ass setup and takedown. Plug along as with any dink, or spill your brains getting that final snerk of performance— the boat has the ability to sail fast and safely with a reasonable amount of expertise.

I'm nowhere near being a qualified boatbuilder, but as a possible buyer I'd have no qualms whatever spending my money on a Dart. Hull #007, perhaps? [Bonded... Way Bonded]

Seeing these building stages illuminates the merit of the build. Thanks for sharing the shop progress, guys.

[Rondog]

You don't pay those guys enough!

That's got to be one of the worlds shittiest jobs!

Mike Rowe where are you???

[Murphness]

This is almost as good as the FOP thread. Thanks for sharing it!

[jim lee]

You don't pay those guys enough! That's got to be one of the worlds shittiest jobs!

The pool of talent we have to draw from here is beyond off the charts incredible.

Thanks for the comments! We appreciate them more than you can know!

-jim lee

[jim lee]

Ok, the deck's all finished up, covered and packed away for later. Now its time to start building the hull.


Hull mold is uncovered. Cleanup and waxing begins.



Pretty much all waxed. Next step is to assemble the halves together and seal the joint.



The mold has been joined. Now to test the vacuum seal for leaks. The last thing we want to is assemble the boat in the mold only to find out the seal's leaking. That would be horrible!



Vacuum testing complete. Next we attach the inserts and clay the seams. We actually use modeling clay for the seams.

There is one certain brand that works. Woe betides the poor purchasing agent that buys the wrong brand!

As the seam is clayed, working from nose to stern, the area touched needs to be re-waxed. So they work backwards out of the hull.



Keel & speed/depth inserts added and clayed. These locate where the keel and through hull fittings go.

Next step is gelcoat, most likely that'll be after lunch..

-jim lee

[DRIFTW00D]

Wow!

[jim lee]

Time to gelcoat again..

I HATE gelcoating & Skincoating its just nasty! My least favorite days.


Test spraying and adjustments.



Gelcoat starts. Getting it in the bow is one of the toughest parts. The tight cave like area tends to blow the gelcoat right back out when you try to spray it in there.



Then, once the bow is coated, it just gets more difficult..



Tim noticed that the gelcoat was starting to kick in the gun. This lead to a frantic cleaning session of the gun and lines.

They caught it in time and were able to clean everything out before it set up solid.



Gelcoat finally complete. You can not imagine the smell spraying this stuff. We plan gelcoating for later in the day so once its complete we can all leave and let it kick off overnight.

[jim lee]

The next day its skin coat time. Once again its head jammed in corners and resin all over.

Skin coating doesn't add strength. It does add weight. For this reason each part was evaluated, skin or not to skin? In the end, only the hull and deck are skinned.



Finishing up skinning.

A big reason to choose these two parts is the time it takes to assemble them. You don't want your gelcoat drying out for that long. So, you skin it to get it "attached" to a bonding layer.



On the hull, skinning has the added benefit that once its skinned you can walk in there to work on it. We did the first hull without skinning and had to put in the first later of glass in using scaffolds, It was horrible!

From #2 on all the hulls get skinned.

Skinning on the last afternoon of the week is best because it gives the weekend for it to set up.

[jim lee]

Replying to myself, so sad..

This thread hits the second page so fast, is there some sort of un-bump button I'm missing?

Anyway, last time we finished up the smelly bits of the hull, now its time to start dry-stacking everything.



Outside layer of glass going in.



The widths of the roll don't quite span the entire hull girth. We lay in side glass to finish the span.

Here's an important point when assembling all this. The bottom glass is lightly attached only along the hull center line and otherwise left free. The upper, side glass is lightly attached only to the gunnel of the boat, and left to hang free on the bottom overlapping edge. The reason for this is so that when we compress everything with the vacuum, these two can slide independent from one another allowing them to adjust to the hull curvature with out bridging.

Bridging is VERY bad for infusion! We will go to any lengths, tricks or voodoo to NOT allow anything to bridge.



Hull coring is a LOT easier than deck coring. The deck took a solid week for two guys working full time. What you see here represents about one day for two guys.



The "easy" part of coring nearly complete. Notice the missing section along the floor leading up to the bow?



This small section of the forepeak hull floor takes an entire day for one guy to fit in place. Like the deck, its just nothing but fiddly little pieces that have to be trimmed and set in really tight. And, there's only room for one person in there.

We load in all the core scraps & a knife and let him have at it.

[F-18 5150]

Looks like fun. Great looking boat build.

[MSA]

Still Lovin' the boat Jim!!!!

Following the FB pics etc too. It's not all about Anarchy.. oh wait, yes it is. (just for DoRag)

[postpast]

Lots of respect for the skills involved! Everything looks quality and professional. More important, I think Dart style boats are important to the growth of sailing. I think a Dart can fetch 65-80thousand, I think a Dart could become a major One Design.
Cabins are needed to help convince the wife. Sea berths are also good in extreme conditions. 22 ft and smaller, are to me, a dinghy. A head, and stove(even camping) are required for having alcohol aboard. A engine of some sort is always good idea.
Attracting 20 something’s to this sport is important. You will do well.

[Pog]

I think the dart maybe the best new boat available, but a little bigger up to 28' is the perfect size for a pocket racer, nice to be able to launch by 2 people and tow behind the average suv. If I had the $$ I would be upgradingg to the dart from my current T-bird. But in a perfect world there will be a 28' verision in 5 yrs when I am ready.

[Silverbullet]

^^^^^^^^^
The bow-sprit puts you at 28' and change I believe.

Speaking of which, Jim, is that going on as part of the build, or as an aftermarket piece? Along those lines, is the spec on this build going to be the same as the last? More? Less?

Btw, I got to see a lot of the Dart at Blakely Rock benefit and PSSR, and it is a great looking boat! Even moreso on the water than in the pics.

[Steam Flyer]

I think the dart maybe the best new boat available, but a little bigger up to 28' is the perfect size for a pocket racer, nice to be able to launch by 2 people and tow behind the average suv. If I had the $$ I would be upgradingg to the dart from my current T-bird. But in a perfect world there will be a 28' verision in 5 yrs when I am ready.

Andrews 28

Same guys as built the Rocket 22, very high quality workmanship there too.

What Jim needs to do is recruit his Dart sailors to go where the J-70 is being demo'd and just sail back & forth... with kids popping in & out of the companionway occasionally (when they're not on the helm)... it doesn't seem like the J could possibly be any better built or better performing, they just have a lot more marketing muscle.

FB- Doug

[Murphness]

Replying to myself, so sad..

This thread hits the second page so fast, is there some sort of un-bump button I'm missing?

again, great thread! It's awesome to see the process step by step. Thanks for taking the time to do it!

Keep up the good work!

Cheers,

Murphness

[Jerryd]

Lots of respect for the skills involved! Everything looks quality and professional. More important, I think Dart style boats are important to the growth of sailing. I think a Dart can fetch 65-80thousand, I think a Dart could become a major One Design.
Cabins are needed to help convince the wife. Sea berths are also good in extreme conditions. 22 ft and smaller, are to me, a dinghy. A head, and stove(even camping) are required for having alcohol aboard. A engine of some sort is always good idea.
Attracting 20 something's to this sport is important. You will do well.

I'm not sure how many 20 somethings in this economy can come up with $65-80K?

[jim lee]

A bit of an "end of the week" wrap up here..



High density core sections added for bow sprit attachment points.



Inner layer of glass installed.



Doublers, and more. The idea is to have the amount of glass match the amount of stress it'll be under while sailing. The keel is where all the stress in the hull concentrates, so this is where the glass gets the thickest.



Peelply installed. If you notice the peel play is layered like shingles as was the glass. This is for the same reason, bridging in the peel ply is just about as bad as bridging in the glass.

Think about it; If the peelply bridges, the vacuum bag can no longer compress the glass & core stack like its supposed to. This causes all sorts of lamination troubles and possibly failures.

Always make sure everything can slide and self adjust when the vacuum bag is pulled down.



Breathers, we make up the breathers and feed lines by the yard. Most of the time left this week is making up feed lines and breathers for next week.

The plan is to bag and shoot this monday.

We'll see...

[jim lee]

Getting ready for assembling all the parts that make up the hull of the boat..



People always seem to focus on the big glory bits. Hull & Deck etc. While the little bits seem to be passed over. Quite awhile back there was a lot of work done in building up all the not so glamours smaller bits. Hatches, braces, inner spars, keel trunks..



Locker lids, by the yard..



Keel skins, rudder skins, bulkheads..



Coring the bunk liner..



Bunk liner all trimmed up. Actually I lie, this is the bunk liner for #2. Spend a few years around this stuff and you start to notice the finer points that differentiate them.

But my point is, every one of these parts has to be assembled, bagged, shot, trimmed and finished off before it can go into a boat. It all takes time.

Pretty soon I hope to be showing the assembly of the hull. All these parts will begin to show up to be installed. They don't arrive by magic, there is another tributary of work adding to this process. This is a small view of what it looks like.

-jim lee

[jim lee]

The bowsprit.. The plan is to have the sprit's hard points for mounting in every hull whether you order a sprit or not. THey are just so much easter to install at this point then afterwards. Also, we like to leave the option open for those that find our later that they really do want a sprit to be able to upgrade.

The specs for this boat are nearly exactly like #2. The only differences are small tooling changes here & there where we made mistakes originally and were able to correct them. For example, the transom section of the deck mold used to be two parts and actually incorrectly sized. This caused a nightmare of rework on the transom of every deck. On Hull #2 we proved that the mold didn't need to be two parts, so we rebuilt the back of it as one part and "hopefully" got the edge in the right place this time.

Another thing holing the specs fixed is that its Leif's design. We don't stay far from that without Leif's Ok. We can gussy up the interior, add fancy electronics and things ( As long as we add no noticeable weight ) but what make it a sailboat is his domain. This slows down our wilder flights of design whimsy.

And your right, the Dart is just a slick little boat! But I can't really tell anyone that because, well.. I'm biased and no one listens anyway. Its really neat when the owner of #2 writes and tells us that they are loving it and its drawing crowds at the dock of people wondering where it came from and that it has a "gift rating".

And my favorite quote from owner of #2: "The boat is ridiculously easy to sail."

But, I do realize one of the pitfalls of what I created. 20yr olds do love the thing. But the dichotomy is you can't buy a Dart flippin' burgers at a fast food joint.

-jim lee

[MSA]

Jim, WA is the Mining capitol of the world at the moment.. Every second 20 something has a V8 ute, 4WD(truck), Ski boat, Jet Ski, 2 wheel and 4 Wheel motorbike and a $400k house, oh and don't forget the Barbie token girlfriend. They earn $120k plus a year for shoveling dirt.

Leave the burger flipping to the High School kids. Market to the right crowds and all good. Hell I presume the US gov is doing some good things for US built exported items right?

oh and don't talk about that "Gift" to much... They will turn it into a "Dog" before you know it!

[jim lee]

Time to finish up this hull shell.



Adding plumbing over the top of the peel ply.

The dark lines are feed lines. The dark material is flow media. Flow media is to resin as grounding straps are to electricity. We use it to wick the resin into the core. The core is what the resin uses to travel around the part.

The white strips around the top of the mold are the vacuum manifolds or vent lines. The combination of a strip of peel ply and this white strip give us what's known as a resin break. It takes a long time for resin to travel along peel ply and it takes time to fill the white manifold material. This way, if the resin front is not even, and it never is, this gives a long time before the resin can fill up the vent lines and shut off the vacuum.

The peel ply below everything gives a nice surface to the part and allows us to pull out all the plumbing & bag afterwards.



Vacuum bag going in. The plastic sheet comes as a rectangle. Darts are pointy at the front. You end up with a lot of extra bag to deal with in the bow.



All shot.

It took a little over an hour to shoot. I had to go hide in the office for awhile 'cause it was stressing me out watching. I need not have worried, they know what there doing but I always do. Worrying is my job.



Pulling out the bag, plumbing & peel ply.



All done, ready to start installing bulkheads and interior structure. It turned out really nice. The dark parts are the glass doublers just like on the deck.

Now we have to look at what's been put on the back burner and see if we need to deal with any other projects. When we get back to this, it'll be installing bulkheads etc.

-jim lee

[rocketscott]

Very cool to watch.

Thanks for taking the time to document it so well!

[pmw]

One of the best threads in a long time. Thanks.

[TooTall]

Any thoughts on designing a retractable sprit for her?

[Merit 25]

I think a Dart can fetch 65-80thousand.
Attracting 20 something’s to this sport is important. You will do well.

I really like the boat. But 65-80k? You realize one was auctioned off for 40k right? Complete.
I'm sorry, but in the current economy, I don't know too many people who have 65-80k to throw at a toy. And I live in the richest county in the US. More importantly, there aren't 20 somethings who have that kind of money. Honestly, a 25 year old has only been working professionally for a few years and is still paying off college loans, rents an apartment, has a car payment, etc. They aren't looking to dump 70k on a brand new boat.

I'm not saying the boat isn't worth the coin, just that 20 somethings, don't have that kinda coin. Sorry, that comment just really stuck me as being WAY out of touch with the 20 something crowd.

[Mahogany Reef]

I think a Dart can fetch 65-80thousand.
Attracting 20 something's to this sport is important. You will do well.

I really like the boat. But 65-80k? You realize one was auctioned off for 40k right? Complete.
I'm sorry, but in the current economy, I don't know too many people who have 65-80k to throw at a toy. And I live in the richest county in the US. More importantly, there aren't 20 somethings who have that kind of money. Honestly, a 25 year old has only been working professionally for a few years and is still paying off college loans, rents an apartment, has a car payment, etc. They aren't looking to dump 70k on a brand new boat.

I'm not saying the boat isn't worth the coin, just that 20 somethings, don't have that kinda coin. Sorry, that comment just really stuck me as being WAY out of touch with the 20 something crowd.

And it's been bugging you for nearly two weeks now...

[jim lee]

Any thoughts on designing a retractable sprit for her?

Well, before asking that; Ask this.. What is it that draws you to the Dart in the first place? There are a LOT of similar size boats out there with retractable sprits. Why the Dart?

-jim lee

[Steam Flyer]

Well, before asking that; Ask this.. What is it that draws you to the Dart in the first place? There are a LOT of similar size boats out there with retractable sprits. Why the Dart?

There aren't really a LOT... in fact there aren't many. The Andrews 28 is notably bigger, the Melges 24 is notably smaller.

Antrim 27
Antrim/Ultimate 24
Elliott 770

Others? I mean, here in North America...

FB- Doug

[MSA]

I think a Dart can fetch 65-80thousand.
Attracting 20 something's to this sport is important. You will do well.

I really like the boat. But 65-80k? You realize one was auctioned off for 40k right? Complete.
I'm sorry, but in the current economy, I don't know too many people who have 65-80k to throw at a toy. And I live in the richest county in the US. More importantly, there aren't 20 somethings who have that kind of money. Honestly, a 25 year old has only been working professionally for a few years and is still paying off college loans, rents an apartment, has a car payment, etc. They aren't looking to dump 70k on a brand new boat.

I'm not saying the boat isn't worth the coin, just that 20 somethings, don't have that kinda coin. Sorry, that comment just really stuck me as being WAY out of touch with the 20 something crowd.

I think it depends on how you look at it. I bet there are 20 somethings that could afford it. Generally no, but there is what, a few hundred Million people in the US of A?? Surely Jim could sell a few boats.. I mean, if Beneteau can sell that 30 footer.....

Im also betting some where there is a yacht club with failing, rotten J24's that need replacing and there is someone on the board that wants USA built boats..

[Merit 25]

I'd be interested in seeing some numbers on how many 20 somethings are buying brand new boats. Period. Regardless of what they cost. Maybe I'm just hanging out in the wrong crowds.

[MSA]

I think it actually matters what the cost is....

I can think of a few from where I am that have purchased boats from a 2nd hand M32 (still more than the amount we are discussing) to the likes of Shaw 650's, Vipers, a close to $100k T750.. and thats in little old Perth with just over 1.5mill people.

Then there are guys buying Multis, spending stupid amounts on Skiffs etc etc etc. There is a market and people are still spending money, learn to tap into it. Admittedly there is less of them at the moment, but people will still spend if they see a valuable return.

[jim lee]

Well one problem is getting the word out. The owner of Dart #2 tells me that in Seattle (About an hour drive south of the factory) Nobody's heard of it. Everyone wants to know what it is and where it came from. I've done the boat shows, Ads in Sailing magazines, Won regattas, New boat write ups in magazines, did the boat dealer thing, even had a small article in Sailing world.

An hour from home its a complete unknown.

And also, if facebook graphs have any credibility, the interested group is not 20 somethings, its 30-50 somethings. That was a bit of a surprise for me. But then, Darts do make the perfect 2nd boat. When the big sailboat starts becoming the dockside condo, the Dart is tied up nearby for quick fun day sails. ( Its actually how ours is used. )

-jim lee

[J24_guy]

Well one problem is getting the word out. The owner of Dart #2 tells me that in Seattle (About an hour drive south of the factory) Nobody's heard of it. Everyone wants to know what it is and where it came from. I've done the boat shows, Ads in Sailing magazines, Won regattas, New boat write ups in magazines, did the boat dealer thing, even had a small article in Sailing world.

An hour from home its a complete unknown.

And also, if facebook graphs have any credibility, the interested group is not 20 somethings, its 30-50 somethings. That was a bit of a surprise for me. But then, Darts do make the perfect 2nd boat. When the big sailboat starts becoming the dockside condo, the Dart is tied up nearby for quick fun day sails. ( Its actually how ours is used. )

-jim lee

Seems like it's an upsized version of a J70. If so, you must be doing something right, since those guys have the marketing acumen to figure out this marketplace precisely. The thing will definitely sell if you can just keep costs somewhat under control. It's a really brilliant machine.

Just out of curiosity, how does the keel lift? Is there a tackle clipped to the mast, as on a Viper, or is there a crane that you fit into place like a Melges?

[7seat]

Lots of respect for the skills involved! Everything looks quality and professional. More important, I think Dart style boats are important to the growth of sailing. I think a Dart can fetch 65-80thousand, I think a Dart could become a major One Design.
Cabins are needed to help convince the wife. Sea berths are also good in extreme conditions. 22 ft and smaller, are to me, a dinghy. A head, and stove(even camping) are required for having alcohol aboard. A engine of some sort is always good idea.
Attracting 20 something's to this sport is important. You will do well.

I'm not sure how many 20 somethings in this economy can come up with $65-80K?

Some of us can, but we are just too busy working to do any sailing . . . What a quagmire. #firstworldproblem

This looks like an awesome boat. I've seen them out sailing. They have great lines - they look powered up but manageable. Watching the build process is just fascinating, thanks for putting these up! Sadly I'm a few years out from boat shopping, but one can dream.

[bugger]

As a small business owner, I think it is terrific to get a look "under the hood" at what is going on in building and marketing these boats. Lots of people (probably me included) would be reluctant to be so open about discussing (and showing!) the build process, marketing plans, etc. It opens you up to criticism (both good and bad) and allows your competitors to see what you are doing.

I say bravo to this thread! Thanks for giving us a peek.

[jim lee]

"Seems like it's an upsized version of a J70."



I think I'm beginning to realize what Tesla must have felt like.

Anyway..

Keel lift is accomplished by an aluminum crane setup that goes over the cabin top.

7seat : We have a bank here that -will- write loans on un-built Darts. Meaning, financing IS available for Darts.

bugger : You are more'n welcome to see what's "under the hood" at Left Coast. The whole idea is to let people know what really goes into building a boat when your trying to do it right. Or at least as well as you know how. And, of course, I enjoy posting stuff like this. Its fun.

So, where were we? The hull shell was shot and it was time to start assembling the structure that ends up holding the hull rigid and becoming your interior.



First thing is to do a LIGHT sanding over the entire interior skin. This is because we're going to attach liner, bulkheads, keel trunk.. All sorts of goodies are going to be glued in there. Then on top of all this we want to paint the entire thing with white gelcoat.

So it gets a little sanding to clean off the more obvious bumps and give a good tooth for the resin to grip to.



Hard points for attaching the bow sprit. Every boat gets these. Even if someone orders a boat without a sprit, they will be there. If they ever decide to upgrade, the hard points are pre-installed and ready.

Now is the time to install them because later, its just horrible to get there there to do any glassing.



Next is smoothing the parts of the inside skin that's going to be visible. It takes a couple days to do this, but the end result when you see inside the boat is all worth it.



Where did we want to put the bulkhead? Tim/Tom lining up the "main" bulkhead using the bulkhead alignment jig.

This is the point where we go over all the old paperwork and notes from the last build to see if there were any changes we wanted to make for the next hull.

[jim lee]

After all the dust settles and all the old paperwork is closed back up, the bulkhead goes here! This pretty much locks in the rest of the interior. So you can see why we take a lot of extra care aligning this first bulkhead.



Liner and keel trunk waiting and ready to be installed. The liner and the keel trunk have flanges for bonding. The liner has flanges for the sides and bottom of the hull and bulkheads. So these pieces are mostly glued in with plexus. Plexus is kinda' like the plastic model glue of life size plastic models.



More parts coming out of inventory and ready for installation. These are.. Bulkhead #2, compression post brace and chain plate brackets.

Hopefully, by the end of next week we can have most of these bits installed.

-jim lee

[billy backstay]

Good luck with the sale!

Clearly, these are knowledgable craftsmen with a lot of detailed care of the many processes. Nice to see.

But, I did have a you tube video of the German Bavaria factory, and it was all automated and eerily, beautiul.

but not so nice as "hand made:, or "bespoke"...

[StayinStrewn]

help me out here, what happens with the green upper 4-6 inches of the hull above the line of the newly installed bulkhead??....that doesn't get cut off, right?

[Shrinkage]

That looks to be the mold. OK, I want one, just need to move my mid 80's IOR war horse on...

[StayinStrewn]

gotcha, thanks

[jim lee]

Yeah, the darker green is the mold edge. The grey-er green is the extra hull lamination and it does get cut off. The cut line is just behind the edge that you can see. The bulkhead tops are also cut to fit when the deck goes on. Each time we build a boat more cutlines and alignments are proven and scribed into the molds. After this hull we are planning on scribing the keel insert & Speed depth through hull locations. They are at the "sharpie" level now. Meaning they are marked in the mold with sharpie marker.

-jim lee

[Varan]

Please quit... I feel like such a cheap bastard... should have offered more during the auction. Fine boat. Nice work.

[jim lee]

Finished up the forepeak structures today. Here's how it all went together.


Glassing in bulkhead #2 This supports the forepeak plates and helps spread the loads from the compression post base.


Final cleanup for installing the compression post base. Below where Tim is cleaning, the floor skin is triple thick to help spread out compression post loads.


Plexus going in. Like I said before, Plexus is the "Plastic model glue" for life size plastic models. Stinks horrible but works wonderful.

It does have its drawbacks in that our glass resins wont cure if they come in contact with it. So, wherever we use Plexus we have to chemically seal the exposed edges before adding any other glass structures.

These things you learn..



Bulkhead #2 and the compression post base installed. Plexus edges are sealed. (Not shown but they are.) Now we need to add the "Green angle".

Green angle: When building out of steel people use a lot of angle iron. Building out of fiberglass we need fiberglass angle. But all we could find on the market were poltruded fiberglass shapes. Poltruded fiberglass shapes tend to be heavy, weak and expensive.

So we tooled up and make our own, by the yard. Two layers of 1708 cloth with 45x45 orientation so ALL of the cloth is crossing over the angle. Its light, flexible and strong. Neat stuff!


Green angles installed (Plexus & sealer) edges smoothed and everything Gel coated. Forepeak structure is complete!.

Time to move back to the main cabin and keel trunk structures.

-jim lee

[hyerstay]

Love it!

I remember you mentioned something about holes for transducer(s). Do you setup for one triducer on the centerline, or two offset holes?

Cheers,

jason

[shaggybaxter]

Really loveley boat Jim, I applaud you for the thread. Bit of customer feedback, without this thread I wouldnt be that interested, considering the distance between us. However, I can see the quality of workmanship going into her, and I must admit I keep coming back and my interest level grows every time.
I agree with MSA, there is always a market, and I know 20'somethingers riding the resources boom, buying houses and paying them off in 3-5 years.
You should do some works on costings for export (I'm too lazy and dont have the time), I am looking at 30ftísh for my next boat to replace my 26ft, and yet the dart is growing on me, it ticks some of the boxes my 30ft wishlist has, and its cheaper (maybe).
Keep up the thread,
SB

[jim lee]

We have a spot in front of the keel and slightly to the starboard side that has been de-cored and indented for the transducer.

In this picture..

You can see it just below his knee.

As for shipping down under..

I'd always figured you people wouldn't be interested because these kind of boats seem to be common down there. My thought was that up here it would be something new & exiting. But from what I've seen, its thought of as unprecedented and frightening. I should just move lock stock and barrel down there. Probably fit in better. How's your economy going at the moment?

But in all seriousness.. Isn't there a bunch of taxes to deal with when shipping something like this to you? It would make for an interesting research project. Do you have any people you know up here that could look at one for you and give you an unbiased report?

-jim lee

[shaggybaxter]

Jim,Economy is two speed, we have the resources sector going hammer and tongs, and the general economy on its knees, we straddle both .I import a lot of product, so tax /duties I know, just dont know any yacht freight co's.We do have a healthy choice of boats, the gp26 for example, but doesn't mean that should be the only choices.Am in US in September, might take some time off and say G'day.Sorry for hijack, SB

[TooTall]

I love this step by step introduction to the build. I check it every morning while the boss drones on and on and on about WORK. Looked at the finished product #2 in Port Townsend during the layover for the Race to the Straits - beautiful. Two questions - is the decored area for the transducer big enough to install both depth and speed? I did not see any limber holes in the #2 bulkhead, are they not needed?

[schoonerman]

Nice work Jim. Hope #3 sells quickly.

Thanks for posting all the build stuff. You are doing a service to boatbuilding art!

[hyerstay]

I love this step by step introduction to the build. I check it every morning while the boss drones on and on and on about WORK. Looked at the finished product #2 in Port Townsend during the layover for the Race to the Straits - beautiful. Two questions - is the decored area for the transducer big enough to install both depth and speed? I did not see any limber holes in the #2 bulkhead, are they not needed?

Use a triducer!

[jim lee]

Thanks for the kudos! You don't know how much it means to us!

As for the transducer..


Speed & Depth with one transducer. Not only that, it is a flush hole. Ain't that fancy?

Here's some pix of the work going on this morning.



Setting up the interior bits to locate the rear bulkhead. We slip spacers between the liner and the front and rear bulkheads to get the spacing correct and allow room for glass & glue.



Forward bulkhead is fixed, the liner is set in with spacers, the variable is the placement of the rear bulkhead. Once everything it lined up with the correct spacers etc. We hot glue core blocks to hold the alignment of the rear bulkhead.



With the rear bulkhead located and all of the flanges marked on the hull and bulkheads, the liner comes back out.



Supporting green angles can now be fitted to the bulkhead faces and the rear bulkhead can be tabbed into the hull.

The trick to attaching green angle is to tack screw it to the bulkhead with small self tapping screws. But (Here's the trick) with washers between the green angle and the bulkhead face. The washers allow enough room for a strong glue bead and won't allow the glue to be squeezed out when you tighten the screws. Once the glue sets up, we remove the screws and fill in their holes.

-jim lee

[TooTall]

Thanks for the education. A triducer who would have thought - one less hole in the bottom. Now that is a great idea. I feel there might be a joke laying around about the difference between a two hole and a one hole boat??

[narecet]

Jim, could you explain just a touch more on the green angle? Thanks!

[abc123]

BUMP! Just 'cuz I like this thread!

[MSA]

Jim import is easy. 10% GST on the total declared import cost, including shipping. There is no 5% duty as US built boats are duty free to Australia. So its a selling point over things like the J80 from China etc etc. Could even slide the sails in the bilge and avoid GST.... Umm.. Forget I said that.....

Does it fit in a 40 footer box? Im to slack to look at dimensions.. If so Shipping is cheap.. about 10% of the price of the LCD... Well if we had a retail price...

[shaggybaxter]

What msa said!
Or you could ust emigrate..(imagine what dr would do with that!)
SB

[MSA]

I should add my 10% shipping cost was based on a $50k boat. So you're looking at $60.5k landed excluding handling fees, So lets say $64k (handling both ends). Sails at $14k (price borrowed from Melges 24) A few safety items and registration, trailer licensing etc etc

So for $80-85k you have a race ready, duel purpose boat.

J80 is about $80-90k right?? With white sails? I know what I would prefer!

Now all we need is another US hickup, the Australian government lower minimum wages and mandatory super contributions to get the AUD to be worth 1.15+ v USD. (not .96 )
That might spur the 2nd wheel to start spinning in the AUS economy. The first being Mining.

[StayinStrewn]

sounds like hull #4 is going to Oz!!