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Volvo 70 design


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#201 STYACHT

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:18 PM


It would be interesting to estimate how the increased panel weight compares to the difference in total hull weight in this version of the rule. My guess is that they added more panel weight than they added hull weight and, as a result, they reduced the amount of structure that could be built. Does anyone have a copy of the V70 Rule from the last go round?

Panel weights haven't changed since version 1 of the rule. Structural requirements have only changed due to the ISO standard going from a draft standard in 2003 to being a final standard for the 2008 race. In the process the standard increased structural requirements in the slamming area slightly. No changes were made for this version from a structural point of view apart from the all up weight increase.

WYD,

Pat S from FYD had been quoted as saying that there was enough weight available in the rule for the designer to distribute structure with some 'flexibility'. Sorry for the pun. Perhaps he will wish to rethink that comment, but can you comment on it's validity? I work with ISO 12215-5 about every day, and I think that a VO70 must far exceed the rule limit in many areas. It is a fair minimum standard, but created around the idea of production boats, not offshore one-offs.

Steve, you are not serious with the value for VOR in going around with an old boat, are you? Isn't the condition of Sanya enough to convince you of the folly? Noncompetitive an used up, putting it kindly. It would be different if they would initiate two classes as is being done in IMOCA, maybe. Big maybe, because where will the money come from to fill that class? Even with an old boat, the cost of a VOR race is huge. The boat will need a rig, and sails, crew, and new kit to get around the race track at all.

#202 bruno

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:10 PM

If they want to see more than 5-6 new boats on the line, at these costs, using old boats seems necessary. If the scantlings are strong enough then carbon can go around more than once, numerous Open 60s, etc.,.

#203 STYACHT

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

If they want to see more than 5-6 new boats on the line, at these costs, using old boats seems necessary. If the scantlings are strong enough then carbon can go around more than once, numerous Open 60s, etc.,.

Um, they got 5 new boats on the line. In the worst of times. How are old boats necessary?

I am trying to point out two things. One is the money. I am saying that saving the design fee, the mould cost, and the boat building doesn't make the dent in campaign costs that some think it does. With one sailor on board, 2/3 shore crew, those savings represent a somewhat bigger % of the whole. With 10/11 on board, plus a shore crew of 4/5, and all of the "consumables" you are looking at a much smaller % of the total cost. They are not sailing for free. And for what prize? 2nd to last? That is the second point, the competitiveness. Once you are in the VOR, for X dollars/yuan, I am guessing like 15-20% more, you get a much better potential outcome. Was black Betty competitive 2nd time around, no. Is Sanya Lan, no. There is just nothing to be gained for teams (nor the VOR itself) to be thinking about the old boats in this regatta. Not that they can't have a second life.

#204 bruno

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:48 PM

Doug,
You know the numbers better than most,I respect what you're saying. I thought that with rule stability, durable structures and upmoding potential a competitive effort would be possible but if not, not.

#205 dougal74

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:23 AM

The debate about Team Sanya sailing Tele Blue is moot. It was far too late to build a 3rd gen VO70 by the time the funding was in place. Moose's plan is long term...to build on these commercial relationships for future editions. His "prize" is to achieve that not a position on a leaderboard.

#206 STYACHT

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:43 AM

The debate about Team Sanya sailing Tele Blue is moot. It was far too late to build a 3rd gen VO70 by the time the funding was in place. Moose's plan is long term...to build on these commercial relationships for future editions. His "prize" is to achieve that not a position on a leaderboard.

Totally agree that it could not be done so late, but I think the entire concept was put together past any possible choice, with the help of VOR (as in the past). I guess that is a contradiction of my own statement that VOR has little interest in old boats. They do, to fill out the fleet. Maybe they do need to make it serious and get 5 legacy boats on the line with it's own trophy, and prize money.

I think the multi edition concept has some merit in theory, but comes to fruition far less than 1/2 of attempts, in all types of racing (AC, MiniTransat, VOR, etc). Telefonica has never stated this as a goal, yet there they are again and again. Puma never had that plan, they also repeat because the ROI for the sponsor and something to prove in the racing team. Delta Lloyd did plan to grow the next generation and fund a full-on winner. Didn't happen.

#207 Dr-Composite

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:16 AM

There has been a lot of good discussions regarding sandwich panel debonding/delamination, but it would be interesting to see some more background information from the design process. Often the debonding is a secondary effect of the real failure mode, which is face sheet wrinkling. A simple design rule often used is the Hoff equation sigma=0.5*(Ef*Ec*Gc)^(1/3). This formulae is very simple to use in an anlysis and you see that the simplest way to increase the wrinkling resistance would be to use a higher E-modulus the fiber or core (increased core desity). But this simple equation does not take into account the face sheet thickness itself and can therefore in some cases lead to non optimized design. It oversimplifies the design. So if you are pushing the design envelope without having verified your FEM analysis with practical testing, your could experience some premature failure. I am not familiar with which tools are actually used in the design of the sandwich structures of the Volvo 70, but it would be very interesting to know and discuss.

Work by sadwich panel guru D. Zenkert has shown that even the stacking order of the face sheet is important. An optimized stacking order could significantly increase your wrinkling resistance, and this is done without any weight penalty :-)

#208 Who's your daddy

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:12 AM


The debate about Team Sanya sailing Tele Blue is moot. It was far too late to build a 3rd gen VO70 by the time the funding was in place. Moose's plan is long term...to build on these commercial relationships for future editions. His "prize" is to achieve that not a position on a leaderboard.

Totally agree that it could not be done so late, but I think the entire concept was put together past any possible choice, with the help of VOR (as in the past). I guess that is a contradiction of my own statement that VOR has little interest in old boats. They do, to fill out the fleet. Maybe they do need to make it serious and get 5 legacy boats on the line with it's own trophy, and prize money.

I think the multi edition concept has some merit in theory, but comes to fruition far less than 1/2 of attempts, in all types of racing (AC, MiniTransat, VOR, etc). Telefonica has never stated this as a goal, yet there they are again and again. Puma never had that plan, they also repeat because the ROI for the sponsor and something to prove in the racing team. Delta Lloyd did plan to grow the next generation and fund a full-on winner. Didn't happen.



I think another issue is that boats designed for previous races would have been designed with a different course, different scoring and different timing considered. The design is always optimised to the expected conditions of the next race. If the one after has less weighting on the in port race and has more light wind or upwind conditions expected then the design brief will be slightly different. Tele Blue was never expected to go round Cape Horn in late March, she was designed to have just left Rio by then, after 3 weeks of maintenance.

#209 Heriberto

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 01:21 AM

There has been a lot of good discussions regarding sandwich panel debonding/delamination, but it would be interesting to see some more background information from the design process. Often the debonding is a secondary effect of the real failure mode, which is face sheet wrinkling. A simple design rule often used is the Hoff equation sigma=0.5*(Ef*Ec*Gc)^(1/3). This formulae is very simple to use in an anlysis and you see that the simplest way to increase the wrinkling resistance would be to use a higher E-modulus the fiber or core (increased core desity). But this simple equation does not take into account the face sheet thickness itself and can therefore in some cases lead to non optimized design. It oversimplifies the design. So if you are pushing the design envelope without having verified your FEM analysis with practical testing, your could experience some premature failure. I am not familiar with which tools are actually used in the design of the sandwich structures of the Volvo 70, but it would be very interesting to know and discuss.

Work by sadwich panel guru D. Zenkert has shown that even the stacking order of the face sheet is important. An optimized stacking order could significantly increase your wrinkling resistance, and this is done without any weight penalty :-)


Not a composites engineer, so maybe this is a stupid question. If is true about wrinkling, wouldn't that happen in the side of the panel subject to compression not tension loading? Are laminate schedules adjusted for this?

#210 thetruth

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:43 AM

In that case can you describe the differences in laminate and core?





The debate about Team Sanya sailing Tele Blue is moot. It was far too late to build a 3rd gen VO70 by the time the funding was in place. Moose's plan is long term...to build on these commercial relationships for future editions. His "prize" is to achieve that not a position on a leaderboard.

Totally agree that it could not be done so late, but I think the entire concept was put together past any possible choice, with the help of VOR (as in the past). I guess that is a contradiction of my own statement that VOR has little interest in old boats. They do, to fill out the fleet. Maybe they do need to make it serious and get 5 legacy boats on the line with it's own trophy, and prize money.

I think the multi edition concept has some merit in theory, but comes to fruition far less than 1/2 of attempts, in all types of racing (AC, MiniTransat, VOR, etc). Telefonica has never stated this as a goal, yet there they are again and again. Puma never had that plan, they also repeat because the ROI for the sponsor and something to prove in the racing team. Delta Lloyd did plan to grow the next generation and fund a full-on winner. Didn't happen.



I think another issue is that boats designed for previous races would have been designed with a different course, different scoring and different timing considered. The design is always optimised to the expected conditions of the next race. If the one after has less weighting on the in port race and has more light wind or upwind conditions expected then the design brief will be slightly different. Tele Blue was never expected to go round Cape Horn in late March, she was designed to have just left Rio by then, after 3 weeks of maintenance.



#211 Who's your daddy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:58 PM

In that case can you describe the differences in laminate and core?






The debate about Team Sanya sailing Tele Blue is moot. It was far too late to build a 3rd gen VO70 by the time the funding was in place. Moose's plan is long term...to build on these commercial relationships for future editions. His "prize" is to achieve that not a position on a leaderboard.

Totally agree that it could not be done so late, but I think the entire concept was put together past any possible choice, with the help of VOR (as in the past). I guess that is a contradiction of my own statement that VOR has little interest in old boats. They do, to fill out the fleet. Maybe they do need to make it serious and get 5 legacy boats on the line with it's own trophy, and prize money.

I think the multi edition concept has some merit in theory, but comes to fruition far less than 1/2 of attempts, in all types of racing (AC, MiniTransat, VOR, etc). Telefonica has never stated this as a goal, yet there they are again and again. Puma never had that plan, they also repeat because the ROI for the sponsor and something to prove in the racing team. Delta Lloyd did plan to grow the next generation and fund a full-on winner. Didn't happen.



I think another issue is that boats designed for previous races would have been designed with a different course, different scoring and different timing considered. The design is always optimised to the expected conditions of the next race. If the one after has less weighting on the in port race and has more light wind or upwind conditions expected then the design brief will be slightly different. Tele Blue was never expected to go round Cape Horn in late March, she was designed to have just left Rio by then, after 3 weeks of maintenance.

I think you are missing the point

#212 SailRacer

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:21 PM

Update:
Team Sanya boat just made it off the ship in Savannah.
Nobdy hurt.

Sail safe!

#213 Clovis

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:43 PM





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Right on brother, Sailed on DHL (Former EF Language) for a couple Hobarts. The shitter was through Forward Hatch on right side with the striptease poll being the only thing that kept you from launching. Once closed the door it was an unbelievable experience to be alone in the Bow section of one of these Yachts while racing.

The harden the fuck up crowd are idiots and can't understand that if Risk can be prevented they should have a serious look at what we are doing. Not sure if you are aware of the SpeedDream project to create the world's fastest Monohull. Pretty slick and using wave piercing hull will remove a lot of the loads the current fleet are challenged with. Saw Vlad and Brian give a presentation here in Marblehead and they will have the 27 ft prototype done by May. This could be the future of the Volvo, and looks to get the right balance between speed and crew abiility to manage. Check it out. Sure arm chair crowd will have something to say on here, but these guys are doing something pretty cool and they fully admit they have some ideas that may or may not work. Gotta love innovation.


So, which of you guys are which? :D


Hehe... see front page today!
:rolleyes:
(actually I did enjoy a lot reading the full "interview", as I tend to share their view on limiting power rather than length (as long as that doesn't lead a slightly-smaller-than-now-mast put on a superlight skiff)

C.

#214 Steve Clark

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 07:20 PM

Some actual information on the current designs
http://chevaliertagl...-design_17.html
Hull lines show actual shape differences between Botin, Juan K, and Farr designs.
Note that Camper's keel is about a meter forward of the others.
SHC

#215 STYACHT

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:25 AM

Some actual information on the current designs
http://chevaliertagl...-design_17.html
Hull lines show actual shape differences between Botin, Juan K, and Farr designs.
Note that Camper's keel is about a meter forward of the others.
SHC

Depends on your definition of "actual" doesn't it? This is no mean feat to determine the hull lines from images. To my eye, his lines, especially the waterplanes (apparently all drawn by hand) somewhat exaggerate rather than match the unusual features of the boat. The flat bow on G4, the tapering canoe of Azzam' stern, and the flatness of Campers aft section for example. I would love to hear the feedback of a builder (if they even get to see the lines plan anymore) to find out about accuracy. Bear in mind I have not been up close and personal with this generation of yachts, yet.