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#201 (p)Irate

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 08:43 AM

The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.

#202 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:05 AM

The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


That is supprising so many are scared of 1 boat!

But all happy to watch the current white wash from state to state!

Banning well sailed boats with spiked performances should see the shaws and eagans banned after this weekend, after all, it is about keeping it fair!

Will be sad seeing them go as well! Gee the fleet is getting suddenly smaller!

#203 GRUMPY

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:53 AM

The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Can you clear something up for me please? Is it sym kites that are out? Can you still set a conventional pole with an asso?

I'm not winding. I'm too lazy to read it all again.

#204 (p)Irate

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 12:50 PM


The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Can you clear something up for me please? Is it sym kites that are out? Can you still set a conventional pole with an asso?

I'm not winding. I'm too lazy to read it all again.

Fixed to bow, prod, or extendable (including) articulating pole. So conventional pole, no.

#205 Team WIld

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:03 PM



The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Can you clear something up for me please? Is it sym kites that are out? Can you still set a conventional pole with an asso?

I'm not winding. I'm too lazy to read it all again.

Fixed to bow, prod, or extendable (including) articulating pole. So conventional pole, no.


so articulating pole is allowed? What is the rule on spinakers, what is legal and what is not? Is there a mention of any ratio between ALU and ALE?

#206 Barman

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:15 PM

1333803794[/url]' post='3662454']

1333803058[/url]' post='3662434']

1333796000[/url]' post='3662329']

1333788212[/url]' post='3662272']
The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Can you clear something up for me please? Is it sym kites that are out? Can you still set a conventional pole with an asso?

I'm not winding. I'm too lazy to read it all again.

Fixed to bow, prod, or extendable (including) articulating pole. So conventional pole, no.


so articulating pole is allowed? What is the rule on spinakers, what is legal and what is not? Is there a mention of any ratio between ALU and ALE?


You beating the devil boat Pirate? Mmmmmm that must hurt!

#207 (p)Irate

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

1333803794[/url]' post='3662454']

1333803058[/url]' post='3662434']

1333796000[/url]' post='3662329']

1333788212[/url]' post='3662272']
The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Can you clear something up for me please? Is it sym kites that are out? Can you still set a conventional pole with an asso?

I'm not winding. I'm too lazy to read it all again.

Fixed to bow, prod, or extendable (including) articulating pole. So conventional pole, no.


so articulating pole is allowed? What is the rule on spinakers, what is legal and what is not? Is there a mention of any ratio between ALU and ALE?


You beating the devil boat Pirate? Mmmmmm that must hurt!

No, we are getting arse raped by predicting normal local conditions that are then anything but normal, or predictable. Plus our usual fuck ups. Finish the races 10 minutes after the start and we'd be champions.

#208 Team WIld

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:27 PM

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.
[/quote]

Can you clear something up for me please? Is it sym kites that are out? Can you still set a conventional pole with an asso?

I'm not winding. I'm too lazy to read it all again.
[/quote]
Fixed to bow, prod, or extendable (including) articulating pole. So conventional pole, no.
[/quote]

so articulating pole is allowed? What is the rule on spinakers, what is legal and what is not? Is there a mention of any ratio between ALU and ALE?
[/quote]

You beating the devil boat Pirate? Mmmmmm that must hurt!
[/quote]
No, we are getting arse raped by predicting normal local conditions that are then anything but normal, or predictable. Plus our usual fuck ups. Finish the races 10 minutes after the start and we'd be champions.
[/quote]

That sux! but it happens too! Mate can you or someone post the actual wording for the constitutional chamge as well as when it will be put in effect.

#209 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 01:59 PM

And designers GS? hey wheer did his post go...TRicky GS now I do look like a dick :D


You are learning aren't you. Thats an old trick.

#210 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:01 PM

How is going from a sym kite to a assy going to slow a boat i think you are missing the point, the reason for this proposal is that there is a big advantage for sym kites on SMS and YV will not do anthing about the way they are measured and ASBA does not want the fleet to start crossing over to take advantage of this because it is more attractive for sponsors for all the boats to have big kites and going quick downwind instead of boats putting down the rumbline. My reasoning for voting for the ruling is that i want all the boats going in the same direction down wind and not having to duck and swerve around running boats and then the tactics are the same for all on the water. The E7s 2 years ago put foward a motion about square head mains to attract new sailors which i cant comment on if this has worked or not so maybe they need to start looking at setting their boats up with assos to attract more people and also how many E7s have been built in the last couple of years ? or Magics ? or how many Stealths, Shaws or Egans Lots. On a plus there was a rush of membership fees for the vote


Wow, now I fully understand your decision, very wise.

#211 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:05 PM



Ok.....

Membership to the Association is limited to sports boats with a valid handicap certificate as stipulated in rule 15 hereof and satisfying the following criteria:

clause

clause

clause

clause ............. 4.1.7. Able be rigged and derigged, launched and retrieved from a boat ramp without requiring the use of manually operated or motorised cranes,

4.2. Sports boats that do not meet the criteria in rule 4 hereof may still apply to the Association for exemption to join the Association provided that at the time of the application the applicant has obtained a valid handicap certificate as stipulated in rule 15 hereof, which must be presented at the time of the application. The decision of the Association to either grant or refuse the application for exemption to join the Association is at the sole discretion of the Committee.


What is missing???


there was a vote last night

obviously those clauses are how things stood prior to last night.

Notwithstanding that the clue is above in 4.2 Exemptions

The melges OD, and the Magic OD have exemptions due to their hiking devices, A E7 owner may apply for exemption re the "no sym' result

It would be less tenuous to do this as a class than individually, because the applicants will have to be in OD spec
----------------------------------------------------------------------

heres some more

http://www.asba.org...._SMS_Rules.html

" The One Design boats also have to comply with their class rules if their SMS Cert specifies that the SMS is an OD rating and in some cases carry additional items that make them an OD boat."



yes mate i agree with your comments and am aware of your additional web link. I am still confused however. If it was a safety issue to ban SYM in ASBA sanctioned events all good. If sponsors are demanding ASSY all good (after all they pay the bills) if it is because YV wont adapt SMS to accommodate a hit to people who use assy effectively to reduce their rating without loss of performance NOT GOOD Sport! While a few people here say "you have to race the fleet to understand it" which I am cool with it looks like the change has come about due to a recent boat electing to change to sym over assy, which cant be beaten in certain conditions. If this is not the case why hasnt the rule been changed years ago to stop the E7? Is this an example of OD class rule (E7)? Because why ban sym now a sthey have been racing SB fleet a long time. I accept that ASBA doesnt want other boats changing to sym as it would take from the spectacular downwing sailing (this is obviously attractive) but surely that is resolved as indicated by adopting the old olympic triangle courses, they were fun:D ! As I said its been voted by the masses and the majority has spoken, doesnt effect me in the slightest, just seems odd!

Doc isnt the Magic a Magic Modified to be technically correct, although I like your thinking!


Ok mate Speed?

Because the sponsers won't come, because they want to be able to have the same tactics, because a slowed boat is embarassing, because how dare somebody have a life as well as be able to afford to sail with the Australian Smart Blazers Ass.

#212 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

Looks like we need to sell our house and buy a $100k boat so we can remain in the ASBA! Pffft, good luck sports boat sailors! I'm going back to CBH!


ALways said you were wise beyond your years.

Go the Elliott 7 & Magic

#213 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:11 PM


Looks like we need to sell our house and buy a $100k boat so we can remain in the ASBA! Pffft, good luck sports boat sailors! I'm going back to CBH!


Hi Barman, I am pretty sure you can still race in ASBA sanctioned events? or is this out of protest?:unsure:


Why bother?
But we can still sail because we have been Grandfathered woohoo!
I like Barman, Slaps and many others see this being about future boats, old and new, not just our interests, but the longterm.
Fancy that, YV didn't want to ban them, geez who'd thunk.

#214 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:13 PM




If the ASBA brains trust were fair dinkum about this making all boats like, there will be a banning of the now smallest different conforming boats in the ASBA SMS list, banning of the Light boats!

Now the members have spoken and want the small numbered hard to handicap boats gone! The light boats Gone must be next!

Its for the better of sportboat sailing in general if they are eased!


you are a member slapper, take the most likely of you ideas ( the one with the best chance) and go through the same process as whats just occurred

or you could just keep venting i spose

btw Syms have been banned, not boats, this will not affect your Thompson but pls use the opportunity to 'flip your lid' so to speak


So what we have here is a measurement rule, that no one can change there boats within! Cause some dont want to! We must all race class so the few im talking about can win! Woo hoo, thats the future, give em a prize now!

Magics will get hosed, Class T7's will get hosed! But its what the collective want now, apperently! Easier for them to get a trophy! And the 2 mentioned boats still cant beat the light ones!

Conspirisy? I think fucking not! Same has been happening for years!

I tried a brand new sail last week in breese to have a chop at keeping with light boats, got close'ish, so what next, we are getting close by playing with the boat so they will ban new sails and changing things again!

We are going places now! :rolleyes:



The thing that confuses me is the SMS is owned by YV, ASBA adopted it and in my opinion it provides some of the best/closest outcomes of any rating system. If YV wont adapt to counter SYM kite benefits they must either think there is no need or want to see more results or have not worked through some internal/external processes. I think when an association adopts a rating system they should stick to it, sure represent the association opinion to try and get the best interest of members put forward but the overarching principle should be to adopt the complete independant rating system. What it looks like is YV wont change rule, some boats have worked the rule to their benefit and outside of the rule changes have been made to counter the improved SMS performance of some or a boat. This same argument goes the otherway as well.


You don't serious;y think YV have a clue! The Blazers however. all over it.

#215 atefooterz

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:15 PM


And designers GS? hey wheer did his post go...TRicky GS now I do look like a dick :D


You are learning aren't you. Thats an old trick.



drunkn ramble

edited drunknrr ramble.


Then gone !


Let GS quote or if U really have no lyfe "printscreen his posts" :rolleyes: only then can the context be seen.

#216 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:19 PM

[/quote]


Hang on........ineligable to vote??? WTF BAHAHAHAHAHAHA right! I own a sport boat and have/are in the process of developing a potential class. I have raised sponsorship from Telstra to develop youth sailing in our OD sports boat model and bahahahaa YOU DONT HAVE A BOAT, so I guess that in the big picture provides me with more of a right to comment on how decisions ASBA makes effects my business. Geeze mate talk about falling off a high horse!!!!!

As far as the rule existing in my mind...what ever! And by your response and your apparent association with the technical committee you either cant answer my question or are not willing to, which is it? If its cant, please see if you can get a determination (agreed I can and should do this but given your contacts maybe you can assist me with this?) if its not willing./.... why not?

In eligable Bahahahaha!
[/quote]
You really are catching on. Now if you could stop quoting GS some, well me, would be happy, ta,

#217 TD Floater

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 02:22 PM

The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Of course you can't remember, you might have needed two hands to count the numbers who showed.

#218 Barman

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:59 PM

1333805031[/url]' post='3662471']

1333804557[/url]' post='3662463']

You beating the devil boat Pirate? Mmmmmm that must hurt!

No, we are getting arse raped by predicting normal local conditions that are then anything but normal, or predictable. Plus our usual fuck ups. Finish the races 10 minutes after the start and we'd be champions.


Or are the just good sailors? How did you go in Airlie again?

#219 83TER

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

Barman

You said that you would not enter a ASBA event after the last nationals because you were not competive which you have been true to your word so i dont think you can comment on this rule.

Turkey Slapper

Were all still not sure what you are going on about but i suppose you cant complain that your not competive anymore because you just won the Sportsboat saturday series against the fastest Shaw 650 in australia.

Billy E Goat

You tried to put in a proxy but you were not even a member ?.

#220 Deepy

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:31 PM

We tried to take an old heavy magic and it competative and had some success. In the heavy weights going OK but not a chance againts the big light weight flyers.
Tough conditions in Tassie especially when W/L end up being reach & shy run. No chance to take advantage of good upwind speed and square running. It's been fun but don't think the assy on the magic will be competative. If you want to win go for the long light weight boat and don't put too much sail on it. Even the Shaw 650 is not in the hunt. Look at the results of Airlie, Geelong, Tassie. Any one design class will find it difficult to beat the boat specifically designed for SMS rating unless they are prepared to play the rating game i.e nolonger a one design boat. To be a chance to win you need a fat wallet, and then the rule will be changed again. For a positive future the costs to race must be kept to a minimum.

#221 Doc.

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:43 PM

We tried to take an old heavy magic and it competative and had some success. In the heavy weights going OK but not a chance againts the big light weight flyers.
Tough conditions in Tassie especially when W/L end up being reach & shy run. No chance to take advantage of good upwind speed and square running. It's been fun but don't think the assy on the magic will be competative. If you want to win go for the long light weight boat and don't put too much sail on it. Even the Shaw 650 is not in the hunt. Look at the results of Airlie, Geelong, Tassie. Any one design class will find it difficult to beat the boat specifically designed for SMS rating unless they are prepared to play the rating game i.e nolonger a one design boat. To be a chance to win you need a fat wallet, and then the rule will be changed again. For a positive future the costs to race must be kept to a minimum.


Well done anyway Deepy, you boys gave it a bloody good shot B) Can't beat a Stacked Deck :ph34r:

#222 (p)Irate

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 10:49 PM


The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Of course you can't remember, you might have needed two hands to count the numbers who showed.

I can count heads cos we have twice as many down here in TAS. All entrants except Jules and Freddo made the meeting. There were two other members there inc one from WA so that makes 14 (or 21 if we were allowed to count the Tassie members' second heads). It was the number of proxies that I'm not sure of.

Don't have the exact wording or the motion with me sorry.

Barman, did you sail at Airlie? We did OK in the light I recall. And had fun. But if we keep getting bagged for having a go maybe we won't bother next time and save a heap of cash.

Thanks to the guys who made the reverse effort to bring their boats all the way to TAS to play with us. We appreciate it. Watch the Kangaroos AFL game from Bellerive today and they might pan to the sailing action on the Derwent.

#223 Team WIld

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 11:45 PM



The discussion amongst actual members at the AGM was far more civilised.

Can't remember the actual numbers but the vote passed with slightly more than 70% for, 30% against.


Of course you can't remember, you might have needed two hands to count the numbers who showed.

I can count heads cos we have twice as many down here in TAS. All entrants except Jules and Freddo made the meeting. There were two other members there inc one from WA so that makes 14 (or 21 if we were allowed to count the Tassie members' second heads). It was the number of proxies that I'm not sure of.

Don't have the exact wording or the motion with me sorry.

Barman, did you sail at Airlie? We did OK in the light I recall. And had fun. But if we keep getting bagged for having a go maybe we won't bother next time and save a heap of cash.

Thanks to the guys who made the reverse effort to bring their boats all the way to TAS to play with us. We appreciate it. Watch the Kangaroos AFL game from Bellerive today and they might pan to the sailing action on the Derwent.


Thanks Pirate for the AFL tip, sounds like a good excuse to watch it!!! I like your comment on participation and fun this is what I hope we all do it for. So 14 actual votes plus proxies, mate may be good if you can find out the proxy numbers and how the proposed constitutional change will read. I know I am not a member yet, however just so I can pick on GS I will be faxing my membership Tuesday!!!! What I really need to know for is due to the development that we are doing to our proposed S8 OD which BTW had a sym option. Our establishmant committee decided on the sym option for a few reasons, namely sym are sometimes a better and faster sail to use when not racing W/L or SMS regatta, 2. Training cababilities, we need to teach the use of both ASSY and SYM and 3. having this option would ALLOW different tactics making racing more than a reaching precession (which is why the olympic triangle was changed to W/L races, different tactics would/should be employed).

This Sym banning seems to be a pretty hot topic I would think the proxy votes would be pretty high, that said in my experience people usually dont send in proxies!!!! I know the vote is done and this topic is dead and buried, however did the members think about using a different course rather than W/L like the triangle, sausage, triangle finish, M course or something that would promote reaching which is what SB is about (going fast)? Maybe this would have been a better option and the symetric boats would have remained largely NON COMPETATIVE!!! Better than banning! Sorry couldnt help myself!

I still think there needs to be the PHS option in all ASBA racing (maybe you do anyway) just liek at the NAtionals, looks there like the well sailed boats are doing well in PHS as well but still should give everyone a chance. Sad to see people choosing not to race because they believe they will not be competative ever.

#224 Team WIld

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:09 AM



Looks like we need to sell our house and buy a $100k boat so we can remain in the ASBA! Pffft, good luck sports boat sailors! I'm going back to CBH!


Hi Barman, I am pretty sure you can still race in ASBA sanctioned events? or is this out of protest?:unsure:


Why bother?
But we can still sail because we have been Grandfathered woohoo!
I like Barman, Slaps and many others see this being about future boats, old and new, not just our interests, but the longterm.
Fancy that, YV didn't want to ban them, geez who'd thunk.



Now before you shoot me down I am on yourside OK.

Guys DONT STOP RACING because things are not going your way at the moment. Race more, build your numbers and move a motion that assists in keeping the fleet competative across the fleet. As you know I now own KISS so I a actually one of the boats you all hate! Would love to build a shit load more of them too, hang on maybe I should change sides the sales potential here looks pretty good!!!!:D I am sure that most of the fleet doesnt care about the silverware and simply enjoy the banter, competition and social side, from posts it seems that there is a FEW that really really want the silverware, like the guy in another post that told me that his SB mast cost 20 grand! I like many others dont care who wins and love to see the old boats get the gernsy. That said it is a rating system and no matter what rating systems will allow the newer boats tha have been designed with the system in mind to take advantage. This is why I have been vocal on this subject you should also never stop development of older boats, allow development , remesure and let them race.

Anyway please dont stop racing, work together and make the changes required. Also seriously consider adopting a secondary handicapping system to run alongside SMS such as PHS.Work on the divisions concept and keep at em. Persistance in the end will prevail, oh and get on the committee if those who you believe are playing a crooked hand are not on the committee they cant do as is being suggested! If people like yourself, barman, slapper etc dont get on the committee you may never change the system.

#225 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:29 AM

We tried to take an old heavy magic and it competative and had some success. In the heavy weights going OK but not a chance againts the big light weight flyers.
Tough conditions in Tassie especially when W/L end up being reach & shy run. No chance to take advantage of good upwind speed and square running. It's been fun but don't think the assy on the magic will be competative. If you want to win go for the long light weight boat and don't put too much sail on it. Even the Shaw 650 is not in the hunt. Look at the results of Airlie, Geelong, Tassie. Any one design class will find it difficult to beat the boat specifically designed for SMS rating unless they are prepared to play the rating game i.e nolonger a one design boat. To be a chance to win you need a fat wallet, and then the rule will be changed again. For a positive future the costs to race must be kept to a minimum.


Well done on your effort. Nothing better than creating a ban to confirm how good your views are.

Go the scary old boats!

#226 Team WIld

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:35 AM


We tried to take an old heavy magic and it competative and had some success. In the heavy weights going OK but not a chance againts the big light weight flyers.
Tough conditions in Tassie especially when W/L end up being reach & shy run. No chance to take advantage of good upwind speed and square running. It's been fun but don't think the assy on the magic will be competative. If you want to win go for the long light weight boat and don't put too much sail on it. Even the Shaw 650 is not in the hunt. Look at the results of Airlie, Geelong, Tassie. Any one design class will find it difficult to beat the boat specifically designed for SMS rating unless they are prepared to play the rating game i.e nolonger a one design boat. To be a chance to win you need a fat wallet, and then the rule will be changed again. For a positive future the costs to race must be kept to a minimum.


Well done on your effort. Nothing better than creating a ban to confirm how good your views are.

Go the scary old boats!



The funny thing is, and I may well be wrong but are the boats that are believed to have wanted this change even looking like winning?

#227 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:39 AM

We won't stop racing, we will just watch the death of what could have been a much better option.
I don't reckon a sym on your boat will be anywhere as effective, I also don't believe you should be able to change mid-regatta from assy to sym, perhaps keeping the higher number and then being able to choose would work. However you are trying so good luck to you.

The stoopid thing is we have 5 Magics sailing in Canberra, the sort of thing Deepy did, could have created interest, there a lot more Magics floating around as well. But nooooo, them scary, them cheap, and as shown, don't always :steal" victory.

#228 Team WIld

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:54 AM

We won't stop racing, we will just watch the death of what could have been a much better option.
I don't reckon a sym on your boat will be anywhere as effective, I also don't believe you should be able to change mid-regatta from assy to sym, perhaps keeping the higher number and then being able to choose would work. However you are trying so good luck to you.

The stoopid thing is we have 5 Magics sailing in Canberra, the sort of thing Deepy did, could have created interest, there a lot more Magics floating around as well. But nooooo, them scary, them cheap, and as shown, don't always :steal" victory.



Yup about 70 of them potential devil boats!!! Maybe round them all up and get them to regattas 70 votes better than the 14 others:P . I agree that the sym probably wont be as effective, however that will depend on how far forwards the apparent comes in the heavy stuff! The main reason for inclusion was training and outside of SB fleets as well as dare I say it, should the rules change again on the self righting aspect. Should extra weight be needed by any changes in the future potentially this will change the lines the sports 8 sails on, which as you know makes a boat slow, if this was ever to be the case the sym may then come into itys own. I have two people consulting the establishment committee at the moment who have experience in establishing OD rule. While we are looking toward a OD concept the rules developed are flexible enough to allow some development. The rule is based on max sail areas, boat weight, foils etc but allow different sail designs, materials and so on. Will be presented to ISAF soon so we will see how it goes.

#229 Bill E Goat

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:14 AM

There is a potential cheater boat right there in Davenport http://www.boatpoint...aspx?R=10392383

So can anyone tell us how long we are allowed to play with the ASBA or will we be banned from sailing at Airlie and the MHYC regatta's

I hear there is a proposal to ban aluminium masts as they don't attract sponsors

#230 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:22 AM

Turkey Slapper

Were all still not sure what you are going on about but i suppose you cant complain that your not competive anymore because you just won the Sportsboat saturday series against the fastest Shaw 650 in australia.


Glad you bought that up! First, i have been spending the money to try and get up to speed, but each time so far the rules have changed to stop this, the symetric ban being another one! I personally wont be spending any more untill this rule changing to suit a few and stop others stops! Its a witch hunt to to favor some that cant get there boats they have onto the podium cause they are a supposed class that cant change them! That is wrong! Even you have changed sail sizes to get a better rating! No?

The sportboat saturday series had 9 races sailed, 6 races sailed in 10 knots or under, 3 of them under 5 knots! The ones under 5 knots shouldnt even be started at all cause it isnt fair on anyone those conditions (obviously as we beat you guys accross the line), even though we won all 3, i have said before that races of this strength shouldnt be sailed. Peow had 4 different helms over the series and a different crew each week and with majority of light races a T7 has enough to get even peow and wha ka some how, we had 1 person change on one day. Even you guys hosed us on a 10 knot day, sailing 3 up, approx 200kgs lighter! Mmmmmm. And when the breese was on, its a shaw fest with us getting in for a 3rd, but last race with another new sail we nearly got up to them! (dont worry, the new sails dont have to be asba measured as they are small sails)

If you cant get what im on about, bluntly, you guys, shaws and kiss type boats win constantly, a guarneteed win over 10 knots, magic cant get you guys over a regatta, but they are banned? Justice where there?

14 light boats measured against 64 heavy, and 1 type of heavy boat banned! Mmmmmmm


We tried to take an old heavy magic and it competative and had some success. In the heavy weights going OK but not a chance againts the big light weight flyers.
Tough conditions in Tassie especially when W/L end up being reach & shy run. No chance to take advantage of good upwind speed and square running. It's been fun but don't think the assy on the magic will be competative. If you want to win go for the long light weight boat and don't put too much sail on it. Even the Shaw 650 is not in the hunt. Look at the results of Airlie, Geelong, Tassie. Any one design class will find it difficult to beat the boat specifically designed for SMS rating unless they are prepared to play the rating game i.e nolonger a one design boat. To be a chance to win you need a fat wallet, and then the rule will be changed again. For a positive future the costs to race must be kept to a minimum.


Well done guys, its a farce! Next ban will be T7's as whilst still asso boats have tried to come within a cooee of getting in the top 5 of a regatta with rating changes but the line keeps getting changed! As 83etr said earlier, magics and E7's arnt being built anymore so they must be banned, only new boats is whats wanted! The whole 14 of them! Small assoc once they get rid of the now not built any more boats!

Looking at the pics from the tassie show, the trailer bailer div has a couple of E780's and 770's sailing in it! Why? Probably something to do with E boats get smashed on sms, but nothing has ever been done to help these guys out!

#231 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:28 AM

There is a potential cheater boat right there in Davenport http://www.boatpoint...aspx?R=10392383

So can anyone tell us how long we are allowed to play with the ASBA or will we be banned from sailing at Airlie and the MHYC regatta's

I hear there is a proposal to ban aluminium masts as they don't attract sponsors



I heard it was boats with gelcoat!

#232 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:31 AM


Turkey Slapper, Were all still not sure what you are going on about but i suppose you cant complain that your not competive anymore because you just won the Sportsboat saturday series against the fastest Shaw 650 in australia.

..
i have been spending the money to try and get up to speed, but each time so far the rules have changed to stop this, the symetric ban being another one! I personally wont be spending any more ...

boat banned! ..
but they are banned? ..
so they must be banned ..
heavy boat banned

the only ban is on end 4 end spinnaker poles
Magics have not been banned, in fact they are specially catered for in the NORs for asba events

Turkey leave all the pole fitting and topping lift stuff riveted to you mast , it will be weaker if you now take them off

pls don't feel the thousands you spent on the kite, pole, rigging hardware is wasted, you can use it in TY racing.

If there is too much heat for you 'in the kitchen' of the top level of TY racing, no doubt the TCF won't be to your satisfaction, the pole fitting on your mast still will be money well spent as you can use it with a wisky pole to boom out you jib against the TS 16s division

#233 Team WIld

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:40 AM


There is a potential cheater boat right there in Davenport http://www.boatpoint...aspx?R=10392383

So can anyone tell us how long we are allowed to play with the ASBA or will we be banned from sailing at Airlie and the MHYC regatta's

I hear there is a proposal to ban aluminium masts as they don't attract sponsors



I heard it was boats with gelcoat!



Ahhh easy sand it off ;) should make them 5 or 6 kg lighter as well!!! Apparently articulating poles are allowed, so Magic should still be able to use symetric, might have to cut SLE shorter to make ALE.....loopholes will be found ;)

#234 Barman

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:58 AM

Barman

You said that you would not enter a ASBA event after the last nationals because you were not competive which you have been true to your word so i dont think you can comment on this rule.

Turkey Slapper

Were all still not sure what you are going on about but i suppose you cant complain that your not competive anymore because you just won the Sportsboat saturday series against the fastest Shaw 650 in australia.

Billy E Goat

You tried to put in a proxy but you were not even a member ?.

Brett I wish I could do as many races as you guys, if you haven't worked it out yet I love sailing and enjoy racing, since the last major regatta we sailed there have. Of been the possibility to sail in asba races, the Easter nationals at Belmont? We had the E7 nationals! Airlie Beach, I sailed with you! We have done a lot of trips coinciding with ASBA events, lake Eyre towed a beach cat out to sail in the middle of the country, Airlie this last year we went up to the tip of Australia Cape York. I travelled to Canberra for the City of Can erra regatta, an E7 thing, the lake was closed due to flooding. We have done a reasonable amount of sailing, oh I forgot went to Mooloolaba for the series up there, as I am now sailing chairman of WMYC that makes it a little hard to do all the races like SBS out of RQ.

As for being not competitive, I never Said I am as good as sailors as you guys, I go out and have a good time with my mates as you also do, any result we get is a bonus. Yes I get disappointed when we watch all the winged shitters fall over, have cluster fucks at the mark roundings at the corners and you think you do well only to get beaten by them when you have had a better than average race in my opinion. Brett you and Joel have said to me that the E7.27 is a good rating boat and that many of the results you have gotten over the years possibly are not deserved. Belmont was one series and when we won Airlie and we went the wrong way a few times, missed the mark and so on. Now I like I said before I have no dramas in admitting you are better sailors than us, like jumping into an E7 for the last nationals and early winning it with no time in the boat, but to me this just stinks of corruption when they want to ban boats which may just be a little more competitive with a different setup. It should be about speed around the track and the sailors on the boat. Not the way they do it.

Good luck in tassie, I am sure you will win down there as well, good on you, I cannot afford to go to Tassie as well as a 4 & 1/2 month trip around Australia. we all have our reasons!

#235 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:59 AM

Turkey leave all the pole fitting and topping lift stuff riveted to you mast , it will be weaker if you now take them off

pls don't feel the thousands you spent on the kite, pole, rigging hardware is wasted, you can use it in TY racing.

If there is too much heat for you 'in the kitchen' of the top level of TY racing, no doubt the TCF won't be to your satisfaction, the pole fitting on your mast still will be money well spent as you can use it with a wisky pole to boom out you jib against the TS 16s division



We have been out training every wednesday, perfecting our tecnique to go without a shute at all, and still rate higher than an sb3 in preperation of doing major regattas in this guise!

So far so good, just a couple of stiffness issues at the moment!

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#236 Team WIld

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 04:13 AM


Turkey leave all the pole fitting and topping lift stuff riveted to you mast , it will be weaker if you now take them off

pls don't feel the thousands you spent on the kite, pole, rigging hardware is wasted, you can use it in TY racing.

If there is too much heat for you 'in the kitchen' of the top level of TY racing, no doubt the TCF won't be to your satisfaction, the pole fitting on your mast still will be money well spent as you can use it with a wisky pole to boom out you jib against the TS 16s division



We have been out training every wednesday, perfecting our tecnique to go without a shute at all, and still rate higher than an sb3 in preperation of doing major regattas in this guise!

So far so good, just a couple of stiffness issues at the moment!

mate I have an answer!! You can use a smaller softer pole, just before you need to use it you can pop a Viagra into the end, then it will grow and become stiff :D dont think the older Sb racers will want this one banned;)

#237 83TER

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:41 AM


Turkey Slapper

Were all still not sure what you are going on about but i suppose you cant complain that your not competive anymore because you just won the Sportsboat saturday series against the fastest Shaw 650 in australia.


Glad you bought that up! First, i have been spending the money to try and get up to speed, but each time so far the rules have changed to stop this, the symetric ban being another one! I personally wont be spending any more untill this rule changing to suit a few and stop others stops! Its a witch hunt to to favor some that cant get there boats they have onto the podium cause they are a supposed class that cant change them! That is wrong! Even you have changed sail sizes to get a better rating! No?

The sportboat saturday series had 9 races sailed, 6 races sailed in 10 knots or under, 3 of them under 5 knots! The ones under 5 knots shouldnt even be started at all cause it isnt fair on anyone those conditions (obviously as we beat you guys accross the line), even though we won all 3, i have said before that races of this strength shouldnt be sailed. Peow had 4 different helms over the series and a different crew each week and with majority of light races a T7 has enough to get even peow and wha ka some how, we had 1 person change on one day. Even you guys hosed us on a 10 knot day, sailing 3 up, approx 200kgs lighter! Mmmmmm. And when the breese was on, its a shaw fest with us getting in for a 3rd, but last race with another new sail we nearly got up to them! (dont worry, the new sails dont have to be asba measured as they are small sails)

If you cant get what im on about, bluntly, you guys, shaws and kiss type boats win constantly, a guarneteed win over 10 knots, magic cant get you guys over a regatta, but they are banned? Justice where there?

14 light boats measured against 64 heavy, and 1 type of heavy boat banned! Mmmmmmm


We tried to take an old heavy magic and it competative and had some success. In the heavy weights going OK but not a chance againts the big light weight flyers.
Tough conditions in Tassie especially when W/L end up being reach & shy run. No chance to take advantage of good upwind speed and square running. It's been fun but don't think the assy on the magic will be competative. If you want to win go for the long light weight boat and don't put too much sail on it. Even the Shaw 650 is not in the hunt. Look at the results of Airlie, Geelong, Tassie. Any one design class will find it difficult to beat the boat specifically designed for SMS rating unless they are prepared to play the rating game i.e nolonger a one design boat. To be a chance to win you need a fat wallet, and then the rule will be changed again. For a positive future the costs to race must be kept to a minimum.


Well done guys, its a farce! Next ban will be T7's as whilst still asso boats have tried to come within a cooee of getting in the top 5 of a regatta with rating changes but the line keeps getting changed! As 83etr said earlier, magics and E7's arnt being built anymore so they must be banned, only new boats is whats wanted! The whole 14 of them! Small assoc once they get rid of the now not built any more boats!

Looking at the pics from the tassie show, the trailer bailer div has a couple of E780's and 770's sailing in it! Why? Probably something to do with E boats get smashed on sms, but nothing has ever been done to help these guys out!


Does this mean that you guys were going to try a symeterical kite to take advantage of the rating?

So you are saying that in a regatta that is under 10kts you have an advantage nothing to do with your ability as a sailor?

any modifications we have done to Blokes World is to make the boat quicker around the race track which was our plan all through the building stage, we measured in a new kite for this regatta as our origional big kite was too big it was hard to set it was hard to gybe and it was hard to drop Barman will agree with this, so it is a negative to make a boat quicker i think not.

I will be happy to swap my boat with you on the next regatta :blink:

#238 Tussa

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:28 AM

We tried to take an old heavy magic and it competative and had some success. In the heavy weights going OK but not a chance againts the big light weight flyers.
Tough conditions in Tassie especially when W/L end up being reach & shy run. No chance to take advantage of good upwind speed and square running. It's been fun but don't think the assy on the magic will be competative. If you want to win go for the long light weight boat and don't put too much sail on it. Even the Shaw 650 is not in the hunt. Look at the results of Airlie, Geelong, Tassie. Any one design class will find it difficult to beat the boat specifically designed for SMS rating unless they are prepared to play the rating game i.e nolonger a one design boat. To be a chance to win you need a fat wallet, and then the rule will be changed again. For a positive future the costs to race must be kept to a minimum.


Well thats what you get for taking a sym rigged boat to Tassie and annoying all the competition. Its been one of those weeks where you cant even score a win on the forum. Never mind when you get home the Tussa will be waiting with a his collection of paddle pop sticks and glue to start construction on the new hull .Have also found the rig off a kite surfer, assy of course and I think it will meet the new rules... well, for one regatta anyway!!!!

#239 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:23 AM

With friends like you no wonder he went symetrical!
Nah, reckon he has plenty of friends on this forum.

#240 Tussa

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:26 AM

With friends like you no wonder he went symetrical!
Nah, reckon he has plenty of friends on this forum.



I am sure you are correct there!

#241 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:38 AM

:lol:

#242 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:00 AM

wow, that was an expensive experiment for Go Majik. One mainsail, one headsail, one spinnaker and possibly keel modifications. Any change out of $8k ? And for 70% of your peers to say dont bother coming back with that. Its enough to make you pack your bags and pick another sandpit, but which one ? PBH wont give them any discounts for being non standard. In fact it will be higher. Treating skilled creative thinkers like that, in what is essentially a development Association, shows an Association in its death throws. As a sign of good faith, they should have at least bought the go Majik guys a new mainsail. It would be very small change for most present.

#243 (p)Irate

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:26 AM

The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.

#244 atefooterz

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:38 AM

OT/ Is there a new movement brewing that allows traps on these semi ballasted skiffs yet ? Maybe a sub branch of the NZ rules that can help clear the decks and allow the semi displacement types continue sms & the up and commers can get stuck into not allowing midde age spread to require throwing away the harness thus making any thoughts about old school poles only workable in extreme conditions.

#245 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:39 AM

Does this mean that you guys were going to try a symeterical kite to take advantage of the rating? Well we cant win now so why not? Might just try sans shute instead!

So you are saying that in a regatta that is under 10kts you have an advantage nothing to do with your ability as a sailor? Yep! I think i said also that under 5knots it shouldnt even be started. Mind you, going the right side of the course accidently did help. ;) And having the same, in my opinion exellent crew does help as well. As you and the other lovers commity have said, we are out there to make the numbers up as are just piss head hacks having a good time and dont take it seriously! Just like in the M24 nationals! :blink:

any modifications we have done to Blokes World is to make the boat quicker around the race track which was our plan all through the building stage, we measured in a new kite for this regatta as our origional big kite was too big it was hard to set it was hard to gybe and it was hard to drop Barman will agree with this, so it is a negative to make a boat quicker i think not. Same as the mods to my boat, only difference is the goal posts wernt changed for your mods!

I will be happy to swap my boat with you on the next regatta :blink: Sorry, i dont want the coroner after me if something goes wrong thanks!


Funny how after all these above comments, mine are the ones queried!

You guys are doing well again, good to see, but the magic got 3rd in a regatta and was banned! Just saying!

#246 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.



But this "anomalty" isnt dominating regattas! Light boats are! Ban them!

Personal gain shouldn't run precident!

Might be worth while ringing YV, a call was made after being told the main luff rule was YV's doing! Well you wont belive the reply!

#247 Team WIld

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:54 AM


The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.



But this "anomalty" isnt dominating regattas! Light boats are! Ban them!

Personal gain shouldn't run precident!

Might be worth while ringing YV, i did after being told the main luff rule was YV's doing! Well you wont belive the reply i got!


Sorry Pirate I seriously doubt this is true, there is not enough rating change given other mods for this to ring true. I think you would find the smaller working sails and sym work out pretty much par on ratings drops. That said the shape of assy does lend itself to measuring larger than the same sized sym. Anyway the decision has been made so no use worrying about it now.

Again can you please detail the vote numbers, how many proxies? what weer the numbers in the end? And can you please post the wording to be placed in the constitution as well as when it takes effect. Am I correct in that it has to be sent to the incorporating body first for registration then put to another AGM for finalisation?

Just trying to get some clarity mate nothing more.

#248 Doc.

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:10 PM

Any knowledge on this? :huh:

Proposal to add the following clause to the ASBA constitution in accordance with
Constitution section 7.5.2: “4.1.13 Uses only asymmetrical downwind sails, with definite
luff and leech, flown by fixing its tack onto the boat’s bow or onto a fixed, retractable
and/or articulating bowsprit”.


http://www.asba.org.au/ASBA/News/Entries/2012/2/13_ASBA_AGM_files/2012%20Agenda%20and%20Proxy%20copy.pdf


Knowledge?, More questions than answers!!!???

What is a Sportsboat?? Definition IS!!! :huh:

#249 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 12:48 PM

Here it is the Future!

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#250 Tussa

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:11 PM


Any knowledge on this? :huh:

Proposal to add the following clause to the ASBA constitution in accordance with
Constitution section 7.5.2: "4.1.13 Uses only asymmetrical downwind sails, with definite
luff and leech, flown by fixing its tack onto the boat's bow or onto a fixed, retractable
and/or articulating bowsprit".


http://www.asba.org....roxy%20copy.pdf


Knowledge?, More questions than answers!!!???

What is a Sportsboat?? Definition IS!!! :huh:


That will open up a can of worms. If a bowsprit, by definition, is an extension for which to attach a forestay, any pole extending from the bowsprit cannot be then classified as part of a bowsprit unless it remained fixed.


As for Asymmetrical and 'not being identical on both sides of a centre line' to comply would require each side of the kite to be of different colour and one side have the words ' luff' and the other side 'Leech" to clearly define which is each.


Cant help if some wish to mix up the luff and leach on every second downwind tack.

#251 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:17 PM

Well you know skiff sailors

#252 Tussa

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

Well you know skiff sailors



Brings back memories. Cannot ever remember a DSQ for doing so!

#253 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:40 PM

http://www.flickr.co...tream/lightbox/

It's his dream, that's ok, but no we can't have syms

#254 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 02:49 PM

So 1st does a race in 50 mins, and waits another 20 mins for last boat, but the Majik gets ban because it finishes 13 minutes behind.

http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

Sure he loves his boat, but that is more a Sportboat then the Go Majik....

#255 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 03:49 PM


The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.

Sorry Pirate I seriously doubt this is true, there is not enough rating change given other mods for this to ring true. I think you would find the smaller working sails and sym work out pretty much par on ratings drops. That said the shape of assy does lend itself to measuring larger than the same sized sym. Anyway the decision has been made so no use worrying about it now.

Again can you please detail the vote numbers, how many proxies? what weer the numbers in the end? And can you please post the wording to be placed in the constitution as well as when it takes effect. Am I correct in that it has to be sent to the incorporating body first for registration then put to another AGM for finalisation?

Just trying to get some clarity mate nothing more.

"Anyway the decision has been made so no use worrying about it now.'


Then STFU already


How about when you race, join in the game and association you ask questions or demand answers


at present your status is no more than someone who has bought a boat that by self admission you can't race properly
not surprising for a Lead-belly Looney http://www.teamwildy...team-wild-crew/
a lead-walloper that flies asymmetrics at that





#256 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:38 PM

ASBA is going down the same path of every other Association that allows itself to make a testosterone based bad decision that excludes the triers. To be blindsided by a decision out of the blue that costs you about 8k without even so much as a thankyou, isnt the way to attract new members or encourage innovative thinking. Its more about Im a rich guy, this is my toy and you will play by my rules or else. oh wait, thats right, they havent even broken a rule, yet 70% want to stomp on their head without an apology. It is classic elitism, and one of the reasons why yachting is on the decline. Whatever happened to comraderie and good sportsmanship ? The Go Magic guys did a great job of proving that you can still be competitive in some conditions without spending 100k. Iy's no different from a race where the 1st place on handicap goes to the tailender of the fleet. Stand up and give him a clap, its his day, dont expel him. It would have been much better sportsmanship to have said congratulations, and let the 100k guys learn a lesson that its not always just about money, just usually.

#257 Team WIld

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 08:53 PM



The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.

Sorry Pirate I seriously doubt this is true, there is not enough rating change given other mods for this to ring true. I think you would find the smaller working sails and sym work out pretty much par on ratings drops. That said the shape of assy does lend itself to measuring larger than the same sized sym. Anyway the decision has been made so no use worrying about it now.

Again can you please detail the vote numbers, how many proxies? what weer the numbers in the end? And can you please post the wording to be placed in the constitution as well as when it takes effect. Am I correct in that it has to be sent to the incorporating body first for registration then put to another AGM for finalisation?

Just trying to get some clarity mate nothing more.

"Anyway the decision has been made so no use worrying about it now.'


Then STFU already


How about when you race, join in the game and association you ask questions or demand answers


at present your status is no more than someone who has bought a boat that by self admission you can't race properly
not surprising for a Lead-belly Looney http://www.teamwildy...team-wild-crew/
a lead-walloper that flies asymmetrics at that





Oh GS you are an embarrasement to the whole sports boat fleet. You dont even own a boat and are many thousands away from being in the game. I can t be bothered with you anymore. You are acting like a spoilt child trying in your own little world trying to justify your own existance. You speak poorly of everyone which is merely a reflection on yourself. You play games by making statements then changing or removing those statements to try and belittle people. See the thing is I can admit that we sail for enjoyment and introduce others to the sport. It is paramount to what we do that we will be ever unlikely to win a regatta as we race with people who are learning and totally enjoy the experience. I could easily put together a gun crew, full of olympians and world champions, and take home the silverware, however sailing is not about that. When people start thinking this way you get decisions like banning syms etc. It is rather funny that you judge people by their admissions or employment and trophies they have won. My proudest trophy is every youth that we help to become positive contributors in society that doesnr end up dead with a needle from their arm or hanging from a rope, that becomes proud of who they are, yours is a little bit of plastic upon a wooden base...HMMMM Anyway GS keep up the good work, I like the many who have PM me about you cant be bothered anymore.

#258 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:18 PM

.
Cry me a river you Lead-belly Looney

as you rightly suspect you are in over your head, and to not take the Sports 8XX to a regatta is a wise choice

but how to join in the game ?

If a sportsboat it must be, you should consider an E7 or Viper as a half -step before trashing the sports 8? actually a Magic would do well they're pretty durable & arg the most economical option.
all 3 being 'production solid' unlike the bespoke lightweight

------------------------------------
what is your best estimate price of a S8 XX out of your moulds that you offered ?
including a lemon protection safety net, i.e. workmanship/integrity full protection for the buyer
hull/deck/fins

#259 83TER

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 09:52 PM


Barman

You said that you would not enter a ASBA event after the last nationals because you were not competive which you have been true to your word so i dont think you can comment on this rule.

Turkey Slapper

Were all still not sure what you are going on about but i suppose you cant complain that your not competive anymore because you just won the Sportsboat saturday series against the fastest Shaw 650 in australia.

Billy E Goat

You tried to put in a proxy but you were not even a member ?.

Brett I wish I could do as many races as you guys, if you haven't worked it out yet I love sailing and enjoy racing, since the last major regatta we sailed there have. Of been the possibility to sail in asba races, the Easter nationals at Belmont? We had the E7 nationals! Airlie Beach, I sailed with you! We have done a lot of trips coinciding with ASBA events, lake Eyre towed a beach cat out to sail in the middle of the country, Airlie this last year we went up to the tip of Australia Cape York. I travelled to Canberra for the City of Can erra regatta, an E7 thing, the lake was closed due to flooding. We have done a reasonable amount of sailing, oh I forgot went to Mooloolaba for the series up there, as I am now sailing chairman of WMYC that makes it a little hard to do all the races like SBS out of RQ.

As for being not competitive, I never Said I am as good as sailors as you guys, I go out and have a good time with my mates as you also do, any result we get is a bonus. Yes I get disappointed when we watch all the winged shitters fall over, have cluster fucks at the mark roundings at the corners and you think you do well only to get beaten by them when you have had a better than average race in my opinion. Brett you and Joel have said to me that the E7.27 is a good rating boat and that many of the results you have gotten over the years possibly are not deserved. Belmont was one series and when we won Airlie and we went the wrong way a few times, missed the mark and so on. Now I like I said before I have no dramas in admitting you are better sailors than us, like jumping into an E7 for the last nationals and early winning it with no time in the boat, but to me this just stinks of corruption when they want to ban boats which may just be a little more competitive with a different setup. It should be about speed around the track and the sailors on the boat. Not the way they do it.

Good luck in tassie, I am sure you will win down there as well, good on you, I cannot afford to go to Tassie as well as a 4 & 1/2 month trip around Australia. we all have our reasons!


So are taking back what you said after the nationals?, i never said anything about your ability i think you are one of the better sailors getting around (want to do airlie this year) and it is a shame that you havent done well with ASBA, Belmont we thought we sailed well except for the last day and thats why we lost the regatta, at Airlie we sailed brillently in the windward leewards getting bullets in most of them and i am sure you will aggree with that, but this isent about boats ratings which is a whole other topic which i think we will never get purfect.

This proposal was talked about over 2 years ago so it is not something that has come up because one boat has had an anvantage, everyone at the AGM the other night had the same opinion on why they wanted it banned if you look at the photos from this regatta you will see why, i spoke to the bowman off the magic last night and he was wishing that they had a asso on for yesterdays racing not fun trying to gybe a boat in gusts of up to 38kts and i think they had a couple of wild gybes :unsure:

#260 facthunt

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:26 PM


We won't stop racing, we will just watch the death of what could have been a much better option.
I don't reckon a sym on your boat will be anywhere as effective, I also don't believe you should be able to change mid-regatta from assy to sym, perhaps keeping the higher number and then being able to choose would work. However you are trying so good luck to you.

The stoopid thing is we have 5 Magics sailing in Canberra, the sort of thing Deepy did, could have created interest, there a lot more Magics floating around as well. But nooooo, them scary, them cheap, and as shown, don't always :steal" victory.



Yup about 70 of them potential devil boats!!! Maybe round them all up and get them to regattas 70 votes better than the 14 others:P . I agree that the sym probably wont be as effective, however that will depend on how far forwards the apparent comes in the heavy stuff! The main reason for inclusion was training and outside of SB fleets as well as dare I say it, should the rules change again on the self righting aspect. Should extra weight be needed by any changes in the future potentially this will change the lines the sports 8 sails on, which as you know makes a boat slow, if this was ever to be the case the sym may then come into itys own. I have two people consulting the establishment committee at the moment who have experience in establishing OD rule. While we are looking toward a OD concept the rules developed are flexible enough to allow some development. The rule is based on max sail areas, boat weight, foils etc but allow different sail designs, materials and so on. Will be presented to ISAF soon so we will see how it goes.


apparent goes arft with the heavy stuff.

#261 facthunt

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 10:52 PM

The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.



why not just measure asso & sym area to the same formula,you dont have to change sms you just use one field when measuring spinachers, if the absa consept/agenda is for high performance development, removing options, banning things, only limits development outcomes.

#262 TD Floater

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:00 PM

Hey, don't bring thought in here!

#263 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

wow, that was an expensive experiment for Go Majik. One mainsail, one headsail, one spinnaker and possibly keel modifications. Any change out of $8k ? ..... PBH wont give them any discounts for being non standard. In fact it will be higher. As a sign of good faith, they should have at least bought the go Majik guys a new mainsail.

T , repectfully

that main and all the other mods are still doing what they were designed to do, drop its handicap to give an advantage before the flag drops

Kite is the ONLY thing thats been ruled against and it was an oldie already owned the story goes ?

any future racing as the boat came with an Assy it will cost the same as the Sym arguably, nuttin'

Curious rig mods for Go Majik. Following the RL24 style of high aspect mainsail, with the spider 22 style of cut down headsail, and no bow pole. Thats a lot of unused boom. It'd be good to get some thoughts on how that worked for them in the light. Were there restrictions in this race in relation to changing mainsails ?

Curious Indeed

race it on corrected and find out why, boats a mtr shorter have rated higher

there is a little left in common with your Magic25


#264 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:24 PM


The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with .


why not just measure asso & sym area to the same formula,you dont have to change sms you just use one field when measuring spinachers, if the absa consept/agenda is for high performance development, removing options, banning things, only limits development outcomes.

good lateral thinking to equalize before the numbers go to sms, but heading down a risky path?
either all the assy boats ratings would drop, or the E7s may/would go up !

of course asba will not be discouraging the E7 class boats

IRC, orc & probably ims add penalties to boats that can back a spinnaker pole to square run, reportedly the irc'ed TP-52s rate better with a fixed sprit & assy, and every other boat rated for that matter. Also extra penalty for rating with both pole systems.

SMS is not realising this, however it may be just sheer area, the sportsboats have rated cloth right down to deck level, and majik has what appears to be 4 vertical metres of thin air below the foot of it's symm.

This was a no-brainer and a cheap win that white-ants the existing fleet asset, i.e. the Asymm boats , no points for designer brilliance there

#265 (p)Irate

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:35 PM


The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.



But this "anomalty" isnt dominating regattas! Light boats are! Ban them!

Personal gain shouldn't run precident!

Might be worth while ringing YV, a call was made after being told the main luff rule was YV's doing! Well you wont belive the reply!

The anomaly about sail area was raised by the executive at the AGM. It was claimed that YV refused to address it.

We got screwed 5 points by the main luff rule so I'd be keen to hear the reply from YV if you have it.

#266 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

Many years ago, I took a set of association rules to a sailmaker and had him produce me a set of compliant sails. They were so successful that the Association banned them within a couple of weeks. I kept using them as we sailed in a mixed fleet of other trailer sailers, and I concentrated on PBH results instead of class results. It led to me winning the club championship that year, because it was exactly what the boat needed, but the association self destructed because they wouldnt evolve. What I didnt realise at the time was that there was an unwritten set of rules within the Association that insisted that we reused second hand sails from a certain dinghy class. Perhaps the sailmaker realised that and thought he would change the culture. Later I sold the boat, and the new owner replaced the rig with a second hand one off the dinghy class concerned, was accepted by the Association and sailed at the back of the fleet. My point is that there is always an unwritten set of rules, and the spend capacity of the majority usually sets the limits. In the case of Go Majik, it looks as though ASBA simply wants to avoid a symmetrical arms war. I wont be modifying my Magic, just sailing it as it is. If I had a lazy 8k, Id be buying myself more reliable car to get to work. I didnt buy my Magic to spend a lot of money on sails, but to have fun, with an assy boat thats virtually impossible to break a mast on.
I feel sorry for the Go Majik guys, I really do. I guess 8k split 4 ways was a reasonable outlay for a fun weekend, and to stick it to ASBA. ASBA has just proved itself to be anti development, with an unwritten set of rules, based on an arms race that 70% of its members think is affordable. It hurts everybody to be banned without warning. That kind of conduct is not something Im interested in seeing happen to me again. I wont be joining ASBA now, even though my stock standard Magic is eligible, which is a pity. Good luck guys.

#267 (p)Irate

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:41 PM

Wild, I said before that there were 14 members present who voted. 13 voted for the motion, 1 against. Richard had four proxies in front of him, all against and I don't know how many the president had (it was announced but I don't recall). Some were against, some for.

The motion has already been posted here.

#268 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 08 April 2012 - 11:42 PM

TTT

rule was about the spinnaker only, it was an oldie already in the spare parts bin they say

$0 and $0 to get back

#269 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:04 AM

GS as you said yourself , the Go Majik guys made extensive mods to take it out of OD to race ASBA. ASBA has now turned their back on them. You cant seriously say they are reversible at zero cost.
If ASBA was serious about growing the class, they wouldnt knee jerk kick Go Majik. They'd HTFU, and create some rules that limit the big spenders, and give those guys plenty of warning the Go Majik treatment is in store for them if they DELIBERATELY breach the rules.

#270 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:05 AM

Turkey, do you actually know that it cost them $8000.

#271 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:13 AM

Hi TD, no as I said in my first post above, its a guess, based on examining the photo's and having owned, rigged and built a few boats in my time. If they are sailmakers, and boatbuilders and used scraps out of the bin, and idle time that they choose to not put a dollar amount on, then thats good news, but 8k is ballpark. Have you costed replacement of your mainsail, headsail and keel for your magic 25 recently ? Ive heard that replacing the standard mast alone is 10k... Do you think they can really induce the required bend in a standard Magic mast, with a high aspect mainsail like that ? I dont think so.

#272 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:23 AM

Don't think they had any hassles with mast. As you say you can't break them so why worry. Break it buy another boat.
$1270 for heady
Would be cranky if I had to replace keel, and probably stay away from the thing!

#273 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:25 AM

GS as you said yourself , the Go Majik guys made extensive mods to take it out of OD to race ASBA. ASBA has now turned their back on them. You cant seriously say they are reversible at zero cost. ......

" ASBA has now turned their back on them."

No they have not, asba passed a motion against their spinnaker system, a reported existing kite btw

unless the silverfish have chewed up their magic25 spinnaker they don't have to buy one of them either

where is the cost re the kites ? the kites the only thing asba have ruled on

#274 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:30 AM

The way i read it, if the E7's can get exemption, so can the magic, it was like this before the ban was made final! So they will still have to be sms ratted even though alledgedly yv dosnt want to!

So who are they really trying to stop? The devil can still race and get beaten "consistantly" by the light boats!

#275 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:33 AM

Grandfathering is dumb! (boats I mean)

#276 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:42 AM

GS, its pointless debating this with you, because nobody will know the true cost of all the mods necessary to achieve the minimal performance drop with maximum rating benefit. If I had to do it, with the optimum spinnaker for the job (not one of the 6 almost fits that Ive got at home), a new high aspect mainsail, a new headsail, and keel mods, Im sure it would be around 8k at least, but I wouldnt be doing it unless I could get the mast a lot more gust responsive. None of the sports boats are keen to reveal what they are spending, even Go Majik. You dont give out information that just puts a bigger smile on the guy thats just king hit you from behind...

#277 Elliot7

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:50 AM



The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with .


why not just measure asso & sym area to the same formula,you dont have to change sms you just use one field when measuring spinachers, if the absa consept/agenda is for high performance development, removing options, banning things, only limits development outcomes.

good lateral thinking to equalize before the numbers go to sms, but heading down a risky path?
either all the assy boats ratings would drop, or the E7s may/would go up !

of course asba will not be discouraging the E7 class boats


Going by memory....but they are (were) treated exactley the same. I know (recall) because I asked about rating for a Sym and an Assy on the same boat and how that would work, and was told that they would just measure the largest sail and use that. There is (was) nowhere on the measurment form to delineate Sym from Assy. Could be wrong...but as I recall that is how it was explained to me, but it was a few years ago now.

#278 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:51 AM

I haven't seen where Go Majik has been asked, and I have no idea. It may have a different aspect, but the boom is also raised.

#279 facthunt

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:59 AM



The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.



But this "anomalty" isnt dominating regattas! Light boats are! Ban them!

Personal gain shouldn't run precident!

Might be worth while ringing YV, a call was made after being told the main luff rule was YV's doing! Well you wont belive the reply!

The anomaly about sail area was raised by the executive at the AGM. It was claimed that YV refused to address it.

We got screwed 5 points by the main luff rule so I'd be keen to hear the reply from YV if you have it.


does yv have any control over how asba applies sms formula to the fleet. was the change in proceedure for measuring main luf an asba aproach or was it from yv?

it seems to me that asba has the power of its own destiny and is able to apply sms how they choose as they may have done with the method of determining the main luf (measure to the goose neck)

sms is just a yv product how asba use it is up to them. if you put toothpaste on your cock dont then ask colgate to change the formula.
.

#280 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:02 AM

Extract from the Magic 25 class rules for sails made after 30 September 2010
Sails
MAINSAIL

51. Maximum dimensions of a mainsail shall be as follows:
51.1 Luff PS 9340 mm;
51.2. Leech 9660 mm;
51.3. Foot Es 3670mm;
52. The maximum girth measurements of the mainsail shall be:
52.1. Half width MHW 2820 mm;
52.2. Upper three quarter width MTW 1860 mm;
52.3 Upper 7/8th width MUW 1120 mm.
These measurements shall only apply to sails made after 30 September 2010.
53. Headboards shall not project more than 180mm from the leading edge of the boltrope or its extension.
54. The mainsail shall have five battens. These may be either full-length battens or leach battens and shall be constructed of glass reinforced plastic.
55. The mainsail shall be loose footed.

#281 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 02:45 AM




The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.

But this "anomalty" isnt dominating regattas! Light boats are! Ban them!

Personal gain shouldn't run precident!

Might be worth while ringing YV, a call was made after being told the main luff rule was YV's doing! Well you wont belive the reply!

The anomaly about sail area was raised by the executive at the AGM. It was claimed that YV refused to address it.

We got screwed 5 points by the main luff rule so I'd be keen to hear the reply from YV if you have it.


does yv have any control over how asba applies sms formula to the fleet. was the change in proceedure for measuring main luf an asba aproach or was it from yv?

it seems to me that asba has the power of its own destiny and is able to apply sms how they choose as they may have done with the method of determining the main luf (measure to the goose neck)

sms is just a yv product how asba use it is up to them. if you put toothpaste on your cock dont then ask colgate to change the formula.
.

You see the situation clearly, the lines of demarcation 'tween YV rating office and ASBA have led to ASBA having to apply their own fix, no doubt at all.
Ideally YV or SMS would have been able to cancel out Spi loopholes or adavntages, but in the end the sportsboats had to address it..

The luff rule was a quick patch applied by YV i'm led to believe, they arguably believed the integrity of their overall rules was being loopholed I guess
To re-inforce this as not being 'personal' to a small handful of T7 owners it also applied outside of SMS, across 800 odd AMS keelboats in fact.

All SBs could have applied it in the end ( same deal the SYM) thus it would have become a zero sum game, the handful would have lost their 'early adopter' advantage/loophole, meanwhile our mainsails would have only got anywhere near our booms at the clew eyelet !!

Applying an individual fix on one SYMM SB probably does not involve a threat to the Greater system like the above and didn't have the priority of the above 'virus' which would of spread quickly.
There are other things that (ideally) could be ignored in measurement too, for logics sake, at the moment sailmakers are working around the headboard rule for fear of it being detrimental, so squaretop mains are getting a droop to their squareness, but overlooking things like this at measuring time opens the door to a far greater evil, loss of integrity of the fleets ratings.

There are measurers approved by YV for AMS and/or SMS in the major areas now

they are guided by the instructions in the SMS & AMS Yearbook here http://www.clubmarin...ps/22141/41822/

i agree it ( i like it) would be a logical workaround and a 'fix' but I believe it is imperative to totally discourage, actually penalise rrs 69 ANY & ALL variation to the measuring guidelines

This would blow up later down the track to the detriment of the whole game if measurers were encouraged to use there own initiative.

The reason sportboat registers and racing is taking off in an organised national sense is that there is stability and structure underpinning the game, this was enabled by a third party ( arms length) being the custodians of the handicapping.
The previous system was like a dog chewing it's own legs off and was not able to work, SBs were in a mess relying on clubs & events to provide a a playing field, it was hell for them to handicap the field and in the end guesswork or a topyacht PHS was the best avail solution.

SO, early days YV office may have consulted ASBA as to whether to issue a cert to boats that 'don't fit', appear to have it sorted now though! End of the day ASBA do not have the right of veto
While this may cause the odd problem & frustration ( like this 1 boat storm in a teacup) it is a extraordinarily small price to pay for the advantages that have allowed the class to expand confidently.

all IMO of course

#282 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:30 AM

GS, its pointless debating this with you, because nobody will know the true cost of all the mods necessary to achieve the minimal performance drop with maximum rating benefit. If I had to do it, with the optimum spinnaker for the job (not one of the 6 almost fits that Ive got at home), a new high aspect mainsail, a new headsail, and keel mods, Im sure it would be around 8k at least, but I wouldnt be doing it unless I could get the mast a lot more gust responsive. None of the sports boats are keen to reveal what they are spending, even Go Majik. You dont give out information that just puts a bigger smile on the guy thats just king hit you from behind...

"all the mods" are not the subject of the banning you claim

only the spinnaker

as they have the spinnakers already, what is the cost of using either ?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The " Ideal " system we needed, and was talked about at the inception of ASBA was one that was suited to our boats, not one where the boats needed to be
adapted to a system ( think IOR 1/4 tonners)

this is still the case IMO,
otherwise we could have just gone IRC, ORC sportsboat, SBR or whatever, or kept your TY mobs "pin the tail on the donkey" system ( you've never sailed close to your CBH 0.935 against any proper interstate competition)

SMS was the closest 'fit' , but nothings perfect, majik exploited that

a part of that loophole is now closed off, history
que sera sera, fat lady has sung

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

here is some of YVs SMS/AMS clauses that talk about CHANGE, and what brings it on

note " spirit ",
note majik was a 'new' one of a kind' design.

1.1.7 It is the aim of the system to protect the fleet from Ratings that are unfair and the Rating Office may amend the system from time to time in order to provide Ratings
that provide the best assessment of the potential of each design.

1.1.8 The spirit of the rule requires that owners may not exploit the system in order to achieve a higher performance without an increase in Rating.

2.2.2 The accuracy of the rating is dependent on the data available and the database has grown substantially over the years. However new designs can challenge Rating systems and the Rating Office may issue provisional Ratings if more data is required in order to assess a new design.

2.2.3 Individual boats will not be penalised under the AMS or SMS system because they perform well. However, the formulae will be re evaluated in June of each year so as to maintain the best available data in the system. An update of the sytems will be carried our on a four year cycle.

2.8.1 It is the objective of the Measurement Rating Committee that the AMS or SMS rule shall not favour new designs to the detriment of older, well-campaigned boats. In order to achieve this objective it may be necessary to utilise Provisional new design has been confirmed.

2.8.2 Owners wishing to test new designs or configurations may apply for a test certificate. A fee may be charged for the provision of test certificates and a limit
may be imposed on the number of test certificates provided.


It's too bad that the rating could or would not capture all anomalies quickly enough

ASBA did, and that is that

#283 facthunt

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:47 AM





The elephant in the room is how SMS treats syms. The word is that an Asso with the same sail area as a sym rates 1.5 times worse.

As has been said before, ASBA has chosen SMS as its preferred rating system. In the absence of a better system, and with the resistance of YV to change SMS, this is the only way that ASBA can deal with the anomaly, and cement the concept of what a Sportsboat is.

But this "anomalty" isnt dominating regattas! Light boats are! Ban them!

Personal gain shouldn't run precident!

Might be worth while ringing YV, a call was made after being told the main luff rule was YV's doing! Well you wont belive the reply!

The anomaly about sail area was raised by the executive at the AGM. It was claimed that YV refused to address it.

We got screwed 5 points by the main luff rule so I'd be keen to hear the reply from YV if you have it.


does yv have any control over how asba applies sms formula to the fleet. was the change in proceedure for measuring main luf an asba aproach or was it from yv?

it seems to me that asba has the power of its own destiny and is able to apply sms how they choose as they may have done with the method of determining the main luf (measure to the goose neck)

sms is just a yv product how asba use it is up to them. if you put toothpaste on your cock dont then ask colgate to change the formula.
.

You see the situation clearly, the lines of demarcation 'tween YV rating office and ASBA have led to ASBA having to apply their own fix, no doubt at all.
Ideally YV or SMS would have been able to cancel out Spi loopholes or adavntages, but in the end the sportsboats had to address it..

The luff rule was a quick patch applied by YV i'm led to believe, they arguably believed the integrity of their overall rules was being loopholed I guess
To re-inforce this as not being 'personal' to a small handful of T7 owners it also applied outside of SMS, across 800 odd AMS keelboats in fact.

All SBs could have applied it in the end ( same deal the SYM) thus it would have become a zero sum game, the handful would have lost their 'early adopter' advantage/loophole, meanwhile our mainsails would have only got anywhere near our booms at the clew eyelet !!

Applying an individual fix on one SYMM SB probably does not involve a threat to the Greater system like the above and didn't have the priority of the above 'virus' which would of spread quickly.
There are other things that (ideally) could be ignored in measurement too, for logics sake, at the moment sailmakers are working around the headboard rule for fear of it being detrimental, so squaretop mains are getting a droop to their squareness, but overlooking things like this at measuring time opens the door to a far greater evil, loss of integrity of the fleets ratings.

There are measurers approved by YV for AMS and/or SMS in the major areas now

they are guided by the instructions in the SMS & AMS Yearbook here http://www.clubmarin...ps/22141/41822/

i agree it ( i like it) would be a logical workaround and a 'fix' but I believe it is imperative to totally discourage, actually penalise rrs 69 ANY & ALL variation to the measuring guidelines

This would blow up later down the track to the detriment of the whole game if measurers were encouraged to use there own initiative.

The reason sportboat registers and racing is taking off in an organised national sense is that there is stability and structure underpinning the game, this was enabled by a third party ( arms length) being the custodians of the handicapping.
The previous system was like a dog chewing it's own legs off and was not able to work, SBs were in a mess relying on clubs & events to provide a a playing field, it was hell for them to handicap the field and in the end guesswork or a topyacht PHS was the best avail solution.

SO, early days YV office may have consulted ASBA as to whether to issue a cert to boats that 'don't fit', appear to have it sorted now though! End of the day ASBA do not have the right of veto
While this may cause the odd problem & frustration ( like this 1 boat storm in a teacup) it is a extraordinarily small price to pay for the advantages that have allowed the class to expand confidently.

all IMO of course


ok i guess the association has less flexability than i thought, with the measurers being affiliated to yv. so a precedence / trend is now set optimisation outside the asba concept is a walk on slippery rocks.

#284 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:01 AM

.
yeah it's both (negative) Incentive based, and like a " Snakes slippery-slope & Ladders " game for hillbillies

the slippery rocks land you in CBH-ville

#285 Fun police

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:46 AM

Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets will drop because there will be no resale value. I am already tossing up whether I will play the asba game or go play with TY's as the E780's seem to be doing pretty well over there.

#286 Team WIld

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 04:53 AM

Wild, I said before that there were 14 members present who voted. 13 voted for the motion, 1 against. Richard had four proxies in front of him, all against and I don't know how many the president had (it was announced but I don't recall). Some were against, some for.

The motion has already been posted here.


Thanks mate that's pretty comprehensive!

#287 Team WIld

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:01 AM

.
Cry me a river you Lead-belly Looney

as you rightly suspect you are in over your head, and to not take the Sports 8XX to a regatta is a wise choice

but how to join in the game ?

If a sportsboat it must be, you should consider an E7 or Viper as a half -step before trashing the sports 8? actually a Magic would do well they're pretty durable & arg the most economical option.
all 3 being 'production solid' unlike the bespoke lightweight

------------------------------------
what is your best estimate price of a S8 XX out of your moulds that you offered ?
including a lemon protection safety net, i.e. workmanship/integrity full protection for the buyer
hull/deck/fins

Funny thing is your so worried about me that you spent time to find info about me on the net. Poor gs! And as far as sports8 cost if you have to Ask then you can't afford it! Anyway as I said not interested in wasting time on you anymore. Oh btw quite a number of sb owners also own lead bellies and a number have left the fleet to keel boats!

#288 facthunt

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:02 AM

Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets will drop because there will be no resale value. I am already tossing up whether I will play the asba game or go play with TY's as the E780's seem to be doing pretty well over there.



stick with it, its swings and roundabouts, play as hard as you can with what youve got, theres only one winner doesnt mean everyone else should stay home.
im sure theres boats around you, race them. this just means you dont have to optimise your boat.

#289 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

But you should be able to optimise inside a rule that has been created for Sportsboats.

#290 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:16 AM

Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets

hang five brother

Kaito is winning the nats (equal) as we speak, we'll know well before sundown

design 1992 Riechel Pugh

Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets will drop because there will be no resale value. I am already tossing up whether I will play the asba game or go play with TY's as the E780's seem to be doing pretty well over there.

numbers are on the increase in sporties

dunno about Sth AUS but not a lot with the TYs here, regionally in pockets there seems some traction, i.e tassie

trouble with some of the Generation One cabbed sporties is that the top outfits have moved into the newer classes

If I was a Gen 1 diehard I'd write to ASBA & enquire about them discussing with YV about heavier Cabin boat breaks,
but really i just think it is that the top outfits are not in them, 'cept Greeny still wins with the E

also have any been subject to any tuning to the measurement rule ? Troppo with Goggs on board used to be able to run with the t7s boat for boat, so thats the target for a TCF (t7)
83ters E780 used to beat T7s from memory? having gone from one style to the other, being competitive in both he'd be the one to ask

#291 facthunt

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:23 AM

But you should be able to optimise inside a rule that has been created for Sportsboats.



yes your point is valid, if your e7 was more optimal with half a mast and a sabot sail would you go down that path.where do you draw the line.

#292 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 05:32 AM

Don't have an E7.

No i wouldn't touch the E7 anyway, because I like it the way it is. Like a lot of others that will go to class Nats and sail in as big a fleet as ASBA.

The point to it all is that the rule was created, now when comeone works it out, they just ban stuff.

The same as they allowed Melgi to use hiking aids, nobody else could.

This story for this boat, that story for another, it just doesn't make sense.

#293 facthunt

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:01 AM

Don't have an E7.

No i wouldn't touch the E7 anyway, because I like it the way it is. Like a lot of others that will go to class Nats and sail in as big a fleet as ASBA.

The point to it all is that the rule was created, now when comeone works it out, they just ban stuff.

The same as they allowed Melgi to use hiking aids, nobody else could.

This story for this boat, that story for another, it just doesn't make sense.



yeh im hearing you, the rule is there, its not a perfect fit with asba,and theres association politics in play,your just not going to get outcomes that seem fair to all all the time.

#294 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:07 AM

Fair enough, but to change a rule like that is just dumb.

#295 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:11 AM


Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets

hang five brother

Kaito is winning the nats (equal) as we speak, we'll know well before sundown Mmmms have a exemption to use an illegal performance option, difference is the magic had a legal one and got banned! Justice where in this? Or is it who owns what still?
design 1992 Riechel Pugh

Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets will drop because there will be no resale value. I am already tossing up whether I will play the asba game or go play with TY's as the E780's seem to be doing pretty well over there.

numbers are on the increase in sporties

dunno about Sth AUS but not a lot with the TYs here, regionally in pockets there seems some traction, i.e tassie

trouble with some of the Generation One cabbed sporties is that the top outfits have moved into the newer classes

If I was a Gen 1 diehard I'd write to ASBA & enquire about them discussing with YV about heavier Cabin boat breaks,
but really i just think it is that the top outfits are not in them, 'cept Greeny still wins with the E Shouldnt have to write to them, if they were legit they would have done something about the light boats, but no, mabe its who sails them again?

also have any been subject to any tuning to the measurement rule ? Troppo with Goggs on board used to be able to run with the t7s boat for boat, so thats the target for a TCF (t7) Tune to the rule and it gets changed soon after! All except for some rules hey! Looks like the powers to be want all boats class, so they have more advantage to bring home the trophies to everyone elses expense!

83ters E780 used to beat T7s from memory? having gone from one style to the other, being competitive in both he'd be the one to ask Check Airlie 2008 sms results! Same crew but in an E780! Shows how out of touch the sms is towards the E boats!



#296 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:22 AM

The luff rule was a quick patch applied by YV i'm led to believe, they arguably believed the integrity of their overall rules was being loopholed I guess
To re-inforce this as not being 'personal' to a small handful of T7 owners it also applied outside of SMS, across 800 odd AMS keelboats in fact.


Depends who you talk to at YV eh?

So all the talk above is in short, if you have an old boat you must sail class or the method of lowering your rating in a hope to be competitive against the light boats will be removed!

Unless its a melges and you can have hiking aids even tho all else cant!

Deal with it if you have no chance as only boats being built now to the light rule are allowed now!

Funny thing its a measurement rule! But only some can change boats and not get hunted!

Magic should be still able to get grandfathered as was in this config before ban, so the devil can stay and take all the places behind the light boats in the future!

Didnt take long, the mighty TYA is back!

I knew they would! ;)

#297 facthunt

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:31 AM



Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets

hang five brother

Kaito is winning the nats (equal) as we speak, we'll know well before sundown Mmmms have a exemption to use an illegal performance option, difference is the magic had a legal one and got banned! Justice where in this? Or is it who owns what still?
design 1992 Riechel Pugh

Still need a solution to keep well sailed older 'heavy' boats competitve or else the association and sportsboat fleets will drop because there will be no resale value. I am already tossing up whether I will play the asba game or go play with TY's as the E780's seem to be doing pretty well over there.

numbers are on the increase in sporties

dunno about Sth AUS but not a lot with the TYs here, regionally in pockets there seems some traction, i.e tassie

trouble with some of the Generation One cabbed sporties is that the top outfits have moved into the newer classes

If I was a Gen 1 diehard I'd write to ASBA & enquire about them discussing with YV about heavier Cabin boat breaks,
but really i just think it is that the top outfits are not in them, 'cept Greeny still wins with the E Shouldnt have to write to them, if they were legit they would have done something about the light boats, but no, mabe its who sails them again?

also have any been subject to any tuning to the measurement rule ? Troppo with Goggs on board used to be able to run with the t7s boat for boat, so thats the target for a TCF (t7) Tune to the rule and it gets changed soon after! All except for some rules hey! Looks like the powers to be want all boats class, so they have more advantage to bring home the trophies to everyone elses expense!

83ters E780 used to beat T7s from memory? having gone from one style to the other, being competitive in both he'd be the one to ask Check Airlie 2008 sms results! Same crew but in an E780! Shows how out of touch the sms is towards the E boats!

theyre gona ban the red pen next.

#298 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:30 AM

Actually, besides the light boats, there was only 1 other boat down there with different equipment others arnt allowed and not hit for!

On another note, since its now all about boats that have something different being banned, only 1 boat had no motor in it measured position!

Just saying!

#299 facthunt

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:06 AM

Actually, besides the light boats, there was only 1 other boat down there with different equipment others arnt allowed and not hit for!

On another note, since its now all about boats that have something different being banned, only 1 boat had no motor in it measured position!

Just saying!



how would you rate the princess from bollywood as a performance accessory

#300 Fun police

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:09 AM

Yeah sorry bit of a dummy spit. We will be at geelong and see how we go. we are trying to get some SMS racing in Adelaide and on a good week we should be able to get 6-10 boat on the water. Most are Gen 1 so the racing is still good. There are also rumours of a heap more boats coming next season so things may ramp up in SA.

Well done Kaito




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