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ASBA proposal


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#301 (p)Irate

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:23 AM

On another note, since its now all about boats that have something different being banned, only 1 boat had no motor in it measured position!

Just saying!

OK then Goggs, which one? As you were not here you must have had a spy.

#302 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:37 AM

The 70% that worked out the 7th placed boat at this nationals out of control dominance, should be all over the problem of light boat dominance since dropping hullfactor and the 1 boat dominance cause of 2 different factors this regatta!

Its only fair since the pricedence is now set care of the magic debarcial!

Fairs fair isnt it!

Let the new TYA witch hunt continue!

Shame!

#303 Dipso

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:05 AM

What you need to do is find out what designs the tech committee sail and then get one of those..... After all they have their own agendas to push. The current changes have been pushed at the committee level for a few years now.... because they don't have sym. kites or kite poles.... and just wait until the new 8.5m boat gets banned

they can't be trusted.

Oh Well, this is the begining of the end for the ASBA

soon enough we can all get back to just sailing our boats after the wankers have made the ASBA irrelevant




#304 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:28 AM

Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee

#305 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:33 AM

What you need to do is find out what designs the tech committee sail and then get one of those..... After all they have their own agendas to push. The current changes have been pushed at the committee level for a few years now.... because they don't have sym. kites or kite poles.... and just wait until the new 8.5m boat gets banned

they can't be trusted.

Oh Well, this is the begining of the end for the ASBA

soon enough we can all get back to just sailing our boats after the wankers have made the ASBA irrelevant



Like!

#306 GRUMPY

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:35 AM

Name change. Sydney SBA. They don't want you in "their" clique.

#307 Humungus

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

Is Julia Gillard the head of ASBA?

#308 (p)Irate

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:55 AM

Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee

Yeah, so many of them at the last nationals, Geelong, and Airlie.

#309 GRUMPY

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

RSL maybe? Redundant skiffies league?

#310 (p)Irate

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

Name change. Sydney SBA. They don't want you in "their" clique.

Darren's from QLD, Andrew from NSW, Cam from VIC, Sam from TAS, yeah so Sydney- centric. Do we need an Indon rep to convince you Grumps? What's your boat of choice, or ownership?

#311 Barman

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:05 AM

1333968928[/url]' post='3664614']

1333967296[/url]' post='3664602']
Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee

Yeah, so many of them at the last nationals, Geelong, and Airlie.


Remember Pirate, the 2010 Nationals were conveniently on at the same time as the E7 nationals here in Brisbane! For the Queensland State titles 2009 there were 7 E7's Which was 1/3 the fleet. Our Q E7 fleet is difficult to get motivated at the moment, personal issues as well as job and unmotivated owners.
An E7 won the Belmont Nationals instead of coming to Brisbane.
You might want to research befor opening your big mouth!

#312 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:10 AM


Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee

Yeah, so many of them at the last nationals, Geelong, and Airlie.


Can you read? Potential.
That's right ASBA doesn't want boats to sail in their assoc.

Fair dinkum, as I said, there is a potential of probably 20 more regular sailing boats not getting tapped into. If ASBA had a clue they would have gone to those classes (Melges as well) and asked, what can we do, what would you like to see.

The E's have been doing regattas up and down the east in consistent numbers for 7 years.

They have their own strength, why should they go to the Mickey Mouse Champs (sorry Mickey)? Why wouldn't you try and get all those regulars along?

Oh yeah, that's right, because you can't have bargains winning or boats that you can go down on.

You guys are the ones doing all the great work and blah, blah, blah, no other class or associations have your types, why wouldn't you try and include?

As the wise Slapper (hehe) says.....just asking.

#313 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:12 AM

Is Julia Gillard the head of ASBA?


no shes head of the asylum.....oh I see where you were going.
Back to work, this has done my head even more!

#314 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:14 AM

Barman, you serious or delerious! (no I don't think I can spell).

When would anyone from ASBA research.

#315 GRUMPY

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:37 AM


Name change. Sydney SBA. They don't want you in "their" clique.

Darren's from QLD, Andrew from NSW, Cam from VIC, Sam from TAS, yeah so Sydney- centric. Do we need an Indon rep to convince you Grumps? What's your boat of choice, or ownership?


Currently a hobie, it suits where I am and is just fun. When I go back to Aussie I'll evaluate the fleets and competition and make a decision. I like the young 840 as an all rounder. Certainly not interested in a ballasted skiff. Might as well stick with a dighy.

I think you've shot yourself in the foot. Maybe the head. I hope it's just the foot though, you can recover from that.

#316 (p)Irate

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:37 AM

1333968928[/url]' post='3664614']

1333967296[/url]' post='3664602']
Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee

Yeah, so many of them at the last nationals, Geelong, and Airlie.


Remember Pirate, the 2010 Nationals were conveniently on at the same time as the E7 nationals here in Brisbane! For the Queensland State titles 2009 there were 7 E7's Which was 1/3 the fleet. Our Q E7 fleet is difficult to get motivated at the moment, personal issues as well as job and unmotivated owners.
An E7 won the Belmont Nationals instead of coming to Brisbane.
You might want to research befor opening your big mouth!

Sorry Barman. I've only been in ASBA since 2010 and we have no E7's racing in TAS. We've done Geelong and Airlie in 2011 and Nationals in 2012 and Greeny was the only E7 who has shown up, and that was at Airlie.

I come from an OD background. If there's a strong E7 OD fleet and they hold their nationals at the same time as ASBA Nats then where does the fleet's priority lie? If they are not coming regularly in numbers then can ASBA be blamed for working in the interests of those who do compete in ASBA events?

If the 15 odd T7''s could organise a circuit, or even a one-off nationals, I'd be there. In the meantime I'm sailing a rated class and would like as much as possible to be sailing like boats against like. That's why I voted for the Asso option.

The light vs heavy is another issue. There wasn't a motion about that on the table. It is a REAL issue, and I have strong thoughts on it, but it isn't the issue here and now in this thread on the ASBA motion voted on the other night.

BTW as my crew would attest, I only have a small mouth. ;-)

#317 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:15 PM

So a class fleet that has been organised and sailing Nationals since 1995ish, should be checking with a half arsed association about when they could hold their Nationals so as to pop up something that was developed becasue they didn't like how they were being treated by a previous association. Ummm yep, I see your point.

The reason for your vote is a classic example of where ASBA is at, personal benefit, not association benefit.

#318 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:37 PM

pathetic

(p)Irate said nothing of the sort, you did

he is quite capable of putting (his own) words into his mouth

__________________________________

meanwhile regarding the firestarting and adding fuel constant moaning noise emanating from this thread

the vote was not aimed at class E7s, after the exemption is formalised their eligibity will be firmed up, which is enjoyed by only 2 other classes thus far, the Magic 25 assoc. ( A.C.T based and HK) & the Melges 24

#319 Barman

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:47 PM

Grandfathered or not the vote was for sym kites! We got voted out so my apologies but I will not waste my time bothering anymore. We as a class are not wanted, it guts me people are like that feel that way. I had a great time sailing against "like" boats. We achieved some good results and there is no better feeling than beating a much faster boat around the track. There are plenty of boats to sail on but nothing beats competing in your own boat. Back to CBH for me, on the upside at least I will be eligible to race for the Bay 2 Bay trophy and the winter sun trophy.

Pirate, we had our E7 nationals lined up well before the ASBA Nats were lined up. There was no one to blame there, it's old news and long forgotten.

#320 TD Floater

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:22 PM

Yeah Pirate, what Barman said, about the Nats. It's happened a few times, and I know some have been disapointed becasue they would like to do both. Check the history (I know you said you haven't been in long), but we had something like 8 E's sms rated early on.

My point was that ASBA has never seemed to want the E and that generation, maybe I'm wrong, never far from it, but that's the feeling. To me if I was involved, I would want to do all I could to get as many "like".

It doesn't bother me al I think othger E7 "enjoyers" becasue we have a good, strong class, but the same goes for the Melgi and T7, there are plenty around, and many sailing regularly, that would tour, with a little encouragement. I know, ASBA shouldn't have to encourage, but you know what, most scuccesful class/assoc do. Heck the NS14 even has a veteran boat div (classic) .

Again echoing Barman a bit, and others, we don't want to be Grandfathered, we want to sail against all types, we or I think that it is damaging, hopefully I'll be very wrong and ASBA will have 50 boat fleets anyways.

#321 furcoat

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:53 AM

Grandfathered or not the vote was for sym kites! We got voted out so my apologies but I will not waste my time bothering anymore. We as a class are not wanted, it guts me people are like that feel that way. I had a great time sailing against "like" boats. We achieved some good results and there is no better feeling than beating a much faster boat around the track. There are plenty of boats to sail on but nothing beats competing in your own boat. Back to CBH for me, on the upside at least I will be eligible to race for the Bay 2 Bay trophy and the winter sun trophy.

Pirate, we had our E7 nationals lined up well before the ASBA Nats were lined up. There was no one to blame there, it's old news and long forgotten.


There has to be more satisfaction kicking Sportsboat arse with a grandfather feeder class than thrashing the pot plant brigade.

#322 Feral

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:28 AM

Did YV give a reason for not agreeing with the proposal?

#323 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:56 AM

afaiui
.
the word 'grandfather' is not part of the association vernacular or doco, nor the concept

Grandfathering simply does not exist


Boats outside the eligibility definition in the constitution are able to obtain exemptions

This is allows the constitution to be clear and definitive, IMO, and logic dictates to make it otherwise i.e. "If that" "except this" will not help whatsoever & actually muddle the definition, thus the exemption clause

#324 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:06 AM

Did YV give a reason for not agreeing with the proposal?

afai understand it

From a purely practical & simplistic viewpoint, The Rating Office receives lineal measurement data (input), runs a algorithm, and produces a mathematical factor (output = TCF)

Their fields on the form certainly allow any shape kites dimensions to be 'input'

ASBAs constitution however sets out eligibilty, this includes the Exemption as an inclusive factor

#325 83TER

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:07 AM

Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee


You cant even get your own fleet of Es and Ms racing in your own town :blink: :blink:

#326 Humungus

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:25 AM

I think you'll find the Elliotts and Magics race in Canberra every week, some more than others but without fail.

#327 GRUMPY

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:09 PM

Classy shit to say as well 83. I mean as classy as Gobby classy.

The class born of feeling excluded from the podium resorts to exclusion because they didn't win.

That's weird.

#328 TD Floater

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:17 PM

Hi 83ter, how are you?

Good weekend?

You are kinda right, but I'm contributing to building 2 other classes at the moment, and sail our half scary boat (yes it has an asso) every Wed twilight, with mates and a son, and often first timers, so I'm happy.

Sailed the E's for 4 season, we are having a bit of time out, you know, sailing other boats for awhile. Hope you don't mind.

You may notice that the States and Nationals are still doing well, considering I can't even get my own fleets racing in my own town. Shame you didn't show the concern when you voted.

Anyway, thanks for your interest.

#329 TD Floater

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:29 PM

Hey Grumps, no worries. I'm sure he isn't "that" bad, just has an opinion, like the rest of us.

Sure, I would like to race the Magic every weekend, but my kids like riding their bikes and sailing their Optis as well. Yeah the 10 and 6 year olds can trap, but that big bad ASSO is just a little heavy, actually so is the keel, come to think of it getting the main up is a bit hard too, yeah I might wait until the other lads are right for sail. Hope 83 doesn't mind to much.

I've done Melges 32 States and Nats (thanks Humungus!), went to NS Nats (well we did go), couple of other away regattas, with another couple before Hammo, so I think I have had my share, I don't really have to sail every weekend......well.....

Would I like to race a boat in ASBA with a symetrical, maybe, certainly would have liked the option, instead of being dictated too. Humungus was onto something earlier.

#330 Doc.

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:51 PM


Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee


You cant even get your own fleet of Es and Ms racing in your own town :blink: :blink:


83 Stop drinking your bath Water :lol:

#331 lickety-split

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:39 AM

I think the E's have more issues than having to get exemption to race in ASBA events. Theres a reason why they cant get an OD number for sms. They vary in weight of 200kg! To sling shite here about the decision is very interesting when there is a murmuring of dissatisfaction in Elliott 7 OD racing itself.
Maybe need to get the home land in order first me thinks....

Dont forget the E7 is still allowed to compete in ASBA events

#332 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:47 AM

I think the E's have more issues than having to get exemption to race in ASBA events. Theres a reason why they cant get an OD number for sms. They vary in weight of 200kg! To sling shite here about the decision is very interesting when there is a murmuring of dissatisfaction in Elliott 7 OD racing itself.
Maybe need to get the home land in order first me thinks....

Dont forget the E7 is still allowed to compete in ASBA events



So should symetrics!

Scare tactics by some to feather there own nests!

So is the 70% terrified of the magic also going to vote out the boat that has 2 aspects to it that no other boat in the nationals fleet, or the whole austrailian fleet for that matter has! After all, it did win and beat all the light boats which themselves are in the minority of the total boats measured for sms with a distint advantage over the last 10+ regattas! For the record, these 2 types hosed the magic as well!

If they are fair dinkum they would!

Pfffftt!

#333 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:49 AM

WIth people like you who would bother. Whos slinging?, you guys want to kill your assoc fine.

200kg, really.

Now have you seen the lightest and heaviest?
Have you seen how much gear some have and some don't?
Have you seen how much gear some leave on and others don't during weighing?
Have you seen the oldest and the heaviest win races and Nationals?
Have you seen the lightest, not?

You have obviously done many E7 regattas, to hav eheard all of this, oh wait no I have and you never hear it, why becasue people sail, compete and then drink with each other!


Idiot

#334 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:54 AM

Oh, and 14 boast lining up for the Nationals, geez if only they could get the home land in order.

Where has the E7 attacked you, you are the ones thgat attacked your own assoc by banning scary boats.

You know what, at an E regatta you don't have to worry about little men siggering behind your back, they tell it to you, or have abeer with you, usually both.

Thanks for making my decision to never sail with ASBA again easy.

#335 lickety-split

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

I dont get you slapper your every where like a mad womans shit.

But dont take it from me
im an idiot

Im telling you TurD Floater, there is 200 kgs diff between heaviest and lightest. Thats not OD accept for the sticker on the sail.

I didnt make your decision, YOU have.

Dont forget the E7 still can race ASBA events.

#336 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:27 PM

Then go and race on the heavy one and see if you can win, and go and race a heavy one and see if you can't win. No that's right you won't because the way to compete is banning boats.

Ring Greg Elliott and see how much difference he thinks it makes. Or the other sailors who have performed in different weight boats. Funny how it's never been a problem, for people who sail the boats.

Get the anchor out before you re-weigh, not to mention the rest of the hardware that half the fleet don't carry.

No you made my decision, I like to sail for the fun, and good people.

#337 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:48 PM

CBH beckons you Goggs

you are making that choice right here

don't worry they won't measure your cut-off Pecker Pext

whinge away your TCF is 0.895

-------------------------------------------------------
Turkey is only upset because his handicap is not to his liking
his sail-cut rating loophole was thwarted, that is this time, but since 2004 he will find another bitch, often not obvious and hard to logically fathom, but its his handicap

Attached File  Pext.gif   2.55K   0 downloads

its alot more difficult for him now that a measurement systen is in place, this leads to whining about all and sundry

he was whining well before the assoc was launched in '07, whinging years before under the old organisation

Lickety, he's everywhere like a mad womans shit since sailing forums were invented, a decade that I know

it does not matter who or what rule that is the one constant

TY you can have him, turks they can have you, i'm sure they'll be thrilled to bits

Didnt take long, the mighty TYA is back! I knew they would!



#338 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

GybeSet, thats not very nice. Seriously. Here we are, being very respectful and cordial with you, and you come up with that shit. I dont know where your idea of whinging comes from, but let me tell you, until you actually pony up and gain some actual sailing experience, or dare I say it, ACTUALLY OWN A BOAT, your opinions on the world mean absolutely nothing to me. ZIP NADA PFFFT. Grumpy, you hit the nail on the head beautifully, as did the Wild Guy, when he discovered that GS doesnt actually own anything. Ever notice how GS goes off for a cry with mum, whenever anyone tells him that ?....

#339 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:17 PM

CBH beckons you Goggs

you are making that choice right here

don't worry they won't measure your cut-off Pecker Pext

whinge away your TCF is 0.895

-------------------------------------------------------
Turkey is only upset because his sail-cut rating loophole was thwarted

Attached File  Pext.gif   2.55K   0 downloads

he was whining well before the assoc was launched in '07, whinging years before under the old organisation

Lickety, he's everywhere like a mad womans shit since sailing forums were invented, a decade that I know

it does not matter who or what rule that is the one constant

TY you can have him, turks they can have you, i'm sure they'll be thrilled to bits


Didnt take long, the mighty TYA is back! I knew they would!


so they got you as well GS!

So its a whinge bringing up the fact there is biases for some, but other biases are banned cause it dosnt suit a few! Thought you were better than that GS! Thought you of all people would want fair racing, not witch hunts after non competitive boats! Before 07 the only beef was for the new boats on the block that wanted to be included but didnt want to fit the rules being sailed to at the time! My opinion hasnt changed like some!

Lickity, you seriously not follow? Look back last page for a hint, bought up by someone else this time! Aboat with a sym nearly won a big 'mixed' regatta, to the scared few that cant beat it got it banned! Now a boat HAS won that even has exemptions and beaten the light boats and is it getting banned next? I think not, and we all know why!

#340 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:19 PM

ha ha

you race your Magic with the flower pot men, not against SBs

can you post a link to your elapsed times at Belmont, how far away Behind you were from the trailer buckets, i could find one for ya

how can Sb3s, Spider 22s Costins beat up on you with your trapezes ? https://www33.tellig...TYA/07RGrp8.htm

learn to race a boat old fella, or bobalob ?

I'll give you the good news, the majik would lap you over 3, and rate 50 points lower whilst your at it

#341 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:29 PM

ha ha

you race your Magic with the flower pot men, not against SBs

can you post a link to your elapsed times at Belmont, how far away Behind you were from the trailer buckets, i could find one for ya

learn to race a boat old fella, or bobalob ?

I'll give you the good news, the majik would lap you over 3, and rate 50 points lower whilst your at it


Faster and still got banned!

What horse shit!

But like some of us here with an opinion, he sails as well, and on our own boats!

#342 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

Lickity, you seriously not follow? Look back last page for a hint, bought up by someone else this time! Aboat with a sym nearly won a big 'mixed' regatta, to the scared few that cant beat it got it banned! Now a boat HAS won that even has exemptions and beaten the light boats and is it getting banned next? I think not, and we all know why!


crissakes Turks

he was THERE winning the event at the half way point

your obsessive handicap rage is blurring your perception



Dont forget the E7 is still allowed to compete in ASBA events

Don't forget the ACT based Magic 25 OD association boats can race in ASBA events

a HK Magic has an sms of 0.827
an aussie Magic OD has a 0.830

estimate for a Magic w/o traps is 0.800 >> 0.807,
this config would beat Melges, particularly in light/moderate, as to date no-ne has given it a spin
Sydney harbour club racing in this config it beats t7s and 780s more than they beat him http://asba.racetrac...&pg=1&ps=50&s=5

yet no-ones twigged yet !

doh

#343 GRUMPY

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:53 PM

You don't race anything Davey. When did you last go for a sail? Where did you finish?

You're a fucking wanker.

#344 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:54 PM

Thanks Slaps! You had to quote him!



What ever looney man! Emabarass me, show everyone what a bad sailor I am, but also please show where I say how good I'm not, I've only done it for the fun and mateship, not that you would get it.

Yes, the Go Majik would no doubt lap me, yet I still want to race against their "type", see I'm not scared of the scary boats.

I tried to find a link, can't sorry, perhaps you could be so kind to go ahead and find it.

Consider it a parting gift, because like all the blokes I know who can sail, and/or are asked their opinions professionally, I finally agree, this place just aint worth it.

At least I never hid, yeah I actually know you can hide your identity, but really why would anyone have to do it, oh yeah right.

#345 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

Thanks Slaps, appreciate the effort there, but no need, you to Grumps, this place has good, but the gutless are just that, so after are couple of holidays from here, I'm off with the smart people, well once looney man can find that link for me.

Yeah the ACT boats could looney, and good luck to them if they do.

#346 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:03 PM

wow

i was replying to TTT

TD went well at belmont in his Asymmetric Boatspeed 23


Dont forget the E7 is still allowed to compete in ASBA events

Don't forget the ACT based Magic 25 OD association boats can race in ASBA events




#347 GRUMPY

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:08 PM

So which boat's your's davey? Show us a crew list you're mentioned on. Show us where you did anything.

You don't sail. You don't have a boat, you can't get a ride. You're not fooling anybody.

You are a wanker.

#348 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:15 PM

Potential to have had 10-15 E's and any amount of Magics..........goooooonnnnnneeeee


not at all, 15 E's have sms certificates




Dont forget the E7 is still allowed to compete in ASBA events



Don't forget the (ACT based) Australian Magic 25 OD association boats can race in ASBA events







#349 richiec

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:18 PM

So which boat's your's davey? Show us a crew list you're mentioned on. Show us where you did anything.

You don't sail. You don't have a boat, you can't get a ride. You're not fooling anybody.

You are a wanker.



You don't sail. You don't have a boat, you can't get a ride. You're not fooling anybody.

You are a wanker.


#350 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:21 PM

Sorry GS my bad, so hard to know who you are aiming at, do you know where I could Assymetric Boatspeed 23, I've seemed to misplaced it. Why asso in bold, I guess i'm knocking them now.

Whatever, you win again, keep burning people.

Hopefully you Lickety will remain buddies long enough to see ASBA racing with a couple of Shaws and other homebuilds. We know the Melges will get booted as soon as HTFU hangs up his booties.

Bye.....

#351 GRUMPY

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:33 PM

well

he says he has a hobby cat, but he don't sail


I'm not putting shit on anybody but you. I'm not pretending to be anything. You are.

What boat Davey? Show us a crew list that you were on. Show us your boat. You put nothing in, you're not a stake holder.

You've got nothing.

#352 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:34 PM

Sorry GS my bad, so hard to know who you are aiming at, do you know where I could Assymetric Boatspeed 23, I've seemed to misplaced it. Why asso in bold, I guess i'm knocking them now.

Whatever, you win again, keep burning people.

Hopefully you Lickety will remain buddies long enough to see ASBA racing with a couple of Shaws and other homebuilds. We know the Melges will get booted as soon as HTFU hangs up his booties.

Bye.....


here tis


Posted Image

I like that yellow bit
my sportsboat was a Boatspeed too comrade
with 18' 31 pre-loved gear TOO !

you were in VJs too

we are like ........ brothers

#353 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:58 PM


Sorry GS my bad, so hard to know who you are aiming at, do you know where I could Assymetric Boatspeed 23, I've seemed to misplaced it. Why asso in bold, I guess i'm knocking them now.

Whatever, you win again, keep burning people.

Hopefully you Lickety will remain buddies long enough to see ASBA racing with a couple of Shaws and other homebuilds. We know the Melges will get booted as soon as HTFU hangs up his booties.

Bye.....


here tis


Posted Image

I like that yellow bit
my sportsboat was a Boatspeed too comrade
with 18' 31 pre-loved gear TOO !

you were in VJs too

we are like ........ brothers


Well done you lured me back.

I have never sailed a VJ (before I get in trouble its only because we didn't have them in Canberra in the 80's, I'm not knocking them !!!! just to clear that)
Ok you have a picture of a Boatspeed, umm where am I? From my memory, though yours is much better of what I have ever sailed, ummm can't remember ever sailing one of them either, but hey why don't you say I don't like them.

as for being brothers, well I guess we could be, because we know what your brother thinks of you.
As for the comrade crap, spells you out.

#354 TD Floater

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:05 PM


well

he says he has a hobby cat, but he don't sail


I'm not putting shit on anybody but you. I'm not pretending to be anything. You are.

What boat Davey? Show us a crew list that you were on. Show us your boat. You put nothing in, you're not a stake holder.

You've got nothing.


Good luck Grumpy, I'm out.

well I sailed with someone I argued with here, he never had his facts the same as the brother fodder. He knew, but I didn't, shows what people are like here. All bold on a computer, weak as.......

Broken a few rules today, oh well, it 's like a drug and Gybeset and mate are to good for me.

Now if I could just find where I parked that Boatspeed, sure hop I enjoyed sailing it :blink:

oh Gybes, last word is for you. Enjoy.

#355 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

thanks for the opportunity to take this thread off on a tangent, i realise that is not your boat

#356 Barman

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:23 PM

I like to sail for the fun, and good people.

Hmmmm me too! Banned for having fun with mates on the race course, whilst watching the big experienced assy boats sailing around the track thinking "I wish I could sail one of those!"

#357 Barman

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 09:28 PM

Btw my E7 weighs 720 kgs, the lightest weighs 650ish? We carry all the required safety gear including headsails we will never use, a big anchor and all the other crap. Not too mention an esky full of light refreshments, we are still competitive!

Gybset, how many times? They voted out the symmetrical spins!

NO ONE WANTS US THERE!

They can go fuck themselves, I'm sorry to all who think otherwise!

#358 Timmys_Trick_Turkey

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:06 PM

GS youre NOT pulling out that crusty OLD picture of someone elses boatspeed AGAIN surely ? Youve been pulling that stunt for at least 5 years I know of, pretending you actually still sail or actually own something is getting pretty old. Eventually, you will learn its better to play nice. Your need to engage in pissing competitions with everyone is so pathetic.

#359 Team WIld

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:56 PM


well

he says he has a hobby cat, but he don't sail


I'm not putting shit on anybody but you. I'm not pretending to be anything. You are.

What boat Davey? Show us a crew list that you were on. Show us your boat. You put nothing in, you're not a stake holder.

You've got nothing.



And the plot thickens!!!! No boat and not on any crew.....Please GS tell me this isnt true, what boat do you crew on mate? I thought that when you said something like "bet your like me and really want to be out on the water" (sorrycant find what you wrote you must have deleted this as well) you/your crew couldnt make it to Tassie......whats the story GS, really?

#360 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:22 PM

ha ha



how can Sb3s, Spider 22s Costins beat up on you with your trapezes ? https://www33.tellig...TYA/07RGrp8.htm



Did you actually look at the elapsed times before posting this?

Nothing wrong with the Costin, it had its moments over the years beating up on much larger quicker boats! Mabe you wernt there for those races either!

#361 Bill E Goat

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:25 PM

This is a thread from over 5 years ago, the medication is obviously not working

Is G S a dickhead or Not I think Yes
Posted 08 September 2007 - 07:19 PM

NO, the question is why didn't you say it before its something we all know about what you are now assuming to understand ? read it again
what does WHO say, who are they ? ? ?

it says the total opposite, that .

I'M assuming that you will eventually get this, the penny may drop,
although it is acceptable to you, totally the way you operate, arbitrarily and with assumed authority

I read (opening post) only owners
(it's OK, i have been 'handed' a very suitable)

, a coincidence? NO

yeah right !!!

---------

Need we say more

--------

This post has been edited by Gob Shit: Today, 06:21 PM
This post has been edited again by Gob Shit: Today, 06:22 PM
This post has been edited and again by Gob Shit: Today, 06:23 PM
This post has been edited and yet again by Gob Shit: Today, 06:24 PM
This post has been edited and another time by Gob Shit: Today, 06:25 PM
This post has been edited and again to change what he said by Gob Shit: Today, 06:26 PM
This post has been edited and a bit later to try and make him look good by Gob Shit: Today, 06:27 PM
This post has been edited and to completely change his point of view to help his arguments by Gob Shit: Today, 06:28 PM

#362 Team WIld

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:42 PM

This is a thread from over 5 years ago, the medication is obviously not working

Is G S a dickhead or Not I think Yes
Posted 08 September 2007 - 07:19 PM

NO, the question is why didn't you say it before its something we all know about what you are now assuming to understand ? read it again
what does WHO say, who are they ? ? ?

it says the total opposite, that .

I'M assuming that you will eventually get this, the penny may drop,
although it is acceptable to you, totally the way you operate, arbitrarily and with assumed authority

I read (opening post) only owners
(it's OK, i have been 'handed' a very suitable)

, a coincidence? NO

yeah right !!!

---------

Need we say more

--------

This post has been edited by Gob Shit: Today, 06:21 PM
This post has been edited again by Gob Shit: Today, 06:22 PM
This post has been edited and again by Gob Shit: Today, 06:23 PM
This post has been edited and yet again by Gob Shit: Today, 06:24 PM
This post has been edited and another time by Gob Shit: Today, 06:25 PM
This post has been edited and again to change what he said by Gob Shit: Today, 06:26 PM
This post has been edited and a bit later to try and make him look good by Gob Shit: Today, 06:27 PM
This post has been edited and to completely change his point of view to help his arguments by Gob Shit: Today, 06:28 PM


I bet if you started a thread on this very topic it would be the most viewed and commented on in the history of Sailing Anarchy, hell the SA moderators may even provide sponsorship :D

#363 Evo

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:57 PM

Posted Image

http://asba.racetrac...&pg=1&ps=50&s=5

yet no-ones twigged yet !


yes they have Davey

#364 akasideshow

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:04 PM



Last year was the first year another E7 showed up to race a whole season, and I am pretty sure they never beat us...but again the WS is definatley "reachy".


Not a valid comparison as they were new to sports boats and it is the winter series. I don't think you have ever beaten any of the better E7's in a winter series race, so based on that logic the Symmetric Elliott is faster



Not sure why its not valid. It was my bow girls first ever race series, (just started sailing), and my other 2 regulars it was their second season (they also just started), Ok it was maybe my 5 or 6th. But that expereince gap is nothing compared to the gap between myself and you guys...so using your logic...the Assy is faster in a reachy race course...like the winter series. And last year the wind was actually pretty good.



But back to the topic at hand. I am pretty certain that ANY sport boat, (with the only possible exception being the newest, lightest, widest sporties) would be faster around the cans with Sym then an Assy. Sporties are just too heavy to get the aparent forward enough. I think the people at ASBA know this too..hence the issue, do we ban Syms so we can sail the boats in the configuration that is the most FUN? Or do we force people to go "low and slow"...the exact opposite of what ASBA is about.


well said
I think the aso boats in sydney get let down in W/L courses because we try and get our boats to shine around the clock (TWA)
without buying code 0's so far...
the nature of us racing PHS (read chook raffle) racing is a real performance enhancing stimulus for the top end, anyone who has been there will know a suit of new sails or a keel mod at the right time makes a huge difference
on sms though, the short boats with a sym (ie majic25 melges24) will always shine on a short W/L especially if its a busy course. Their gybes don't slow them. Plus being short they can run finer angles to the mark while still on the step. Their big issue is boatspeed on tight reaching.
My thought is that we should review the course structure rather than the rule
Surely sym boats on W/L and aso's on triangle or something similar. If mixed fleet - mix the courses, can't be that hard. I'm sure if you asked the PRO as a class they'd happily set the course you want !
Don't forget its so much more fun for the assy crew to try and control a launching skittish planing boat needing more hike to make the layline, than it is to run deep every time you get some pace on and struggle to rotate the aso when you hit some chop. and fun equals numbers right !


faithfully signed against the current love of W/L

#365 Team WIld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:35 PM




Last year was the first year another E7 showed up to race a whole season, and I am pretty sure they never beat us...but again the WS is definatley "reachy".


Not a valid comparison as they were new to sports boats and it is the winter series. I don't think you have ever beaten any of the better E7's in a winter series race, so based on that logic the Symmetric Elliott is faster



Not sure why its not valid. It was my bow girls first ever race series, (just started sailing), and my other 2 regulars it was their second season (they also just started), Ok it was maybe my 5 or 6th. But that expereince gap is nothing compared to the gap between myself and you guys...so using your logic...the Assy is faster in a reachy race course...like the winter series. And last year the wind was actually pretty good.



But back to the topic at hand. I am pretty certain that ANY sport boat, (with the only possible exception being the newest, lightest, widest sporties) would be faster around the cans with Sym then an Assy. Sporties are just too heavy to get the aparent forward enough. I think the people at ASBA know this too..hence the issue, do we ban Syms so we can sail the boats in the configuration that is the most FUN? Or do we force people to go "low and slow"...the exact opposite of what ASBA is about.


well said
I think the aso boats in sydney get let down in W/L courses because we try and get our boats to shine around the clock (TWA)
without buying code 0's so far...
the nature of us racing PHS (read chook raffle) racing is a real performance enhancing stimulus for the top end, anyone who has been there will know a suit of new sails or a keel mod at the right time makes a huge difference
on sms though, the short boats with a sym (ie majic25 melges24) will always shine on a short W/L especially if its a busy course. Their gybes don't slow them. Plus being short they can run finer angles to the mark while still on the step. Their big issue is boatspeed on tight reaching.
My thought is that we should review the course structure rather than the rule
Surely sym boats on W/L and aso's on triangle or something similar. If mixed fleet - mix the courses, can't be that hard. I'm sure if you asked the PRO as a class they'd happily set the course you want !
Don't forget its so much more fun for the assy crew to try and control a launching skittish planing boat needing more hike to make the layline, than it is to run deep every time you get some pace on and struggle to rotate the aso when you hit some chop. and fun equals numbers right !


faithfully signed against the current love of W/L



YUP, there is the nail on the head thingy (IMO)! Go back to the old olympic triangle, this course has everything for everyone. four reaches, a dead run and a windward per lap (ie triangle, sausage, triangle, finish). I believe if this option was put forward this post wouldnt exist (in its current form) and people would not see the sym ban as a withhunt. You know different ways to skin a cat as they say. At the end of the day a decision has been made and if ASBA are fair dinkum they will also add to the constitution hiking devices such as trapeze etc is allowable as long as a boat is being sailed in its class, OD etc configuration. I am thinking the Magics will then represent a very good and cheap option for those with lesser budgets than others. If the inuendo is correct the Tech committee should be for this. As I understand it the Shaw is a Trap boat in NZ so it could be argued that in CLASS trim it is sailed with Traps, now that sounds like fun!!!

#366 ntman

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 09:39 PM

So my understanding is that there was only a handful of e7s that are members of ASBA.at the major sports boat regattas there is usually one or 2. So is it really that e7s aren't wanted by the asba fraternity or the other way round? My understanding is that e7s as a class will still be welcome to be part of asba.

are any of these statements wrong?

and just as a quick correction there is no way in hell that a modern sportsboat is faster with a symmetric. try and convince a shaw owner to put a symmetric on and 99% of the time it would be way behind.

#367 lickety-split

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:50 PM

I voted in favour of the motion, I was close to going against until it was highlighted that the e7 was fine to keep racing with us.

The w/l format is fantastic as tactics down hill become just as important as up hill. Looking for pressure lines, wind shifts down hill, can achieve large gains or losses. Having a sym eliminates this completely. Doing triangles just dictates which side of the course you must go down hill.

#368 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:21 PM

OMG!

The sym boats dont win regattas to even have to worry about having triangle courses! They havnt yet, and probably never will, even the magic, you throw light boats in the field, and even the magic cant beat them in W/L races, and in the light some heavier designs can compete, the magic is an eg of sailing consistant over a week which gets them there! But only sometimes to a podium, at least one heavy boat!

akasideshow and team wild, you guys ever done a triangle regatta in sportboats? The only passing lane is then upwind! If the breese is on, you cant hang the "Big" shutes down the reaches anyway, wingged boats bolt, but you will find the E7 can hold theres as they are fractional!

You would find triangles would be voted out more strongly than the devil's!

As mentioned by a few allready, it was a scare campaign by some that couldnt beat the consistancy of these boats all the time! A farce even! But it worked for them! Blind freddy could look at past results and see there isnt the domination by this style to warrent "Banning" them, where as light boats have won them all! And there is only the same amount of them sms'd as there is symetrics! Go figure eh! But cause of owners in positions this wont be rectified for the better of the class will it, there is trophys and the dizzing fucking heights of sportboat regatta winner to get! And now the national champ is a boat that has exemptions for 2 performance enhancing options but as TD, Dipso, Grumpy and others have said or alluded to, there is outside factors that dictate what is wanted!

Big question is, will light boats be banned, or the M24's rule exemptions be cut since they have now won more regattas/nationals than a symetric boat!

I fuckin doubt it, that wont suit the majority of the fleet!

#369 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:27 PM

I voted in favour of the motion, I was close to going against until it was highlighted that the e7 was fine to keep racing with us.

The w/l format is fantastic as tactics down hill become just as important as up hill. Looking for pressure lines, wind shifts down hill, can achieve large gains or losses. Having a sym eliminates this completely. Doing triangles just dictates which side of the course you must go down hill.


So you voted against just one boat then!

The magic!

1 Boat out of what, 100 that are measured, that has never won a regatta against boats like yours?

Do you not like the guys that sail them? Or was it that others said they are bad cause they travel to regattas all over the country, and once got a 3rd (at airlie) so they will ruin the class and must be stopped so its just a light boat fest?

Oooooo im scared of them now too!

#370 Evo

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

Looking for pressure lines, wind shifts down hill, can achieve large gains or losses. Having a sym eliminates this completely.


do what you like mate....but don't talk rubbish. That's rubbish and hopefully hasn't been used as an argument for banning the symm....that would display a very narrow view and limited knowledge of racing.

#371 Team WIld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:41 PM

I voted in favour of the motion, I was close to going against until it was highlighted that the e7 was fine to keep racing with us.

The w/l format is fantastic as tactics down hill become just as important as up hill. Looking for pressure lines, wind shifts down hill, can achieve large gains or losses. Having a sym eliminates this completely. Doing triangles just dictates which side of the course you must go down hill.



Mate obviously you are an excellent sailor so surely you know that triangles present the same tactical abilities that you mention above? W/L downhill does present the tactical decisions as you suggest however ASSY boats ultimatly look for the best VMG. The better sailors like yourself pretty much already know where the wind waves will be as you are well prepared so at the top mark L or R decision is usually made, correct me if I am wrong but it would have to be some pretty dramatic windshift or pressure increase to hunt it down if it is going to present an issue with VMG? I know this is looking at it simply as wind is a dynamic and ever changing thing, however there is usually a pattern and this is why the great sailors get beaten sometimes as the wind is also unpredicatable and you find yourself on the wrong side of the course!!!!! Some of the greatest sailors in this country are so good because they often choose conservatism and consistency over risky tactics. My point is I reckon this can be worked out on course design triangle gives the speed hit that the sym banning motion seems to have been presented as (slow and low sym isnt in the interests of balls out sb racing, which is a little ironic if the sym boats get around the course faster than the equivalent boat with assy as last I looked it was who got around the course the fastest). You could do a triangle and two w/l legs if you wanted but my point is course design dictated boat design, ask any designer!

Lickety I personally appreciate your open and honest post, your opinion should be accepted but also debated as this is how positive outcome(s) result. No one has answered the question regarding why YV didnt ban the sym in their SPORTS BOAT MEASUREMENT system, if there was solid logic behind it surely they would have agreed as apparently they did with the short luff mains. No doubt ASBA approached them why do you think they wouldnt change it???

NTMAN; two elliots or magics etc is better than none. You can not really base an argument on boat numbers of a particular type or you will end up with a few boats that the owners and crew have jobs that allow heaps of time off and pay packets in the higher income brackets that the entire ASBA constitution (rule) is dedicated to.......and I am sure we dont want that!

#372 Team WIld

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:49 PM

Jesus Mr Slapper wrong side of teh bed today mate ;) ! Maybe so with regard to the assy on a reach but that is a tactical argument so adds to the tactical debate. I would think a reacher assy would be a viable option that would assist all boats and promote teh speed thing!!! JUST SAYIN!!!!! One things for sure many dont agree with the banning of the sym and it seems more agree with it so course design might be a real option? Maybe a mixture of courses?

#373 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:53 PM

No one has answered the question regarding why YV didnt ban the sym in their SPORTS BOAT MEASUREMENT system,



Because it was a personal witch hunt! They have a handicap system with some tweaking, not pushes from some owners, works well, and can also fit both types of shutes!

#374 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:59 PM

Jesus Mr Slapper wrong side of teh bed today mate ;) ! Maybe so with regard to the assy on a reach but that is a tactical argument so adds to the tactical debate. I would think a reacher assy would be a viable option that would assist all boats and promote teh speed thing!!! JUST SAYIN!!!!! One things for sure many dont agree with the banning of the sym and it seems more agree with it so course design might be a real option? Maybe a mixture of courses?



Not at all!

Smaller shuets add more expence for the boats that would need them, and added with more changes to full shutes for the runs, pain in the arse! Triangle races would prove one thing but, boats like yours are under handicapped! You shy reach a T7 against a shaw! The shaws up here anyway, they make 2 boat lengths on us in the time from the first mark to the clearance mark! For 2 different boats with nearly the same sms, that is an impossible speed difference to factor into a handicap!

#375 Team WIld

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:07 AM

Smaller shuets add more expence for the boats that would need them, Agreed this is a downside but maybe the lesser of two evils?

and added with more changes to full shutes for the runs, pain in the arse! And more opportunity for mistakes so brings in a crew capacity element

Triangle races would prove one thing but, boats like yours are under handicapped! According to racetrack the s8xx is already underhandicapped!!!!! I dont see an issue with my boat getting a benefit from two sail recahes, what have you got against me Mr Slapper ;) :D :D :angry: !!!! As I said mate not perfect but maybe a better option to consider, possibly not triangle, box and M style courses were quite interesting.

#376 Bill E Goat

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:10 AM

In all reality for the E's it doesn't really matter. The ASBA have a Nationals and some State titles.

The rest are all regattas using the SMS rating system that are independent of the ASBA, Geelong, Airlie Sydney etc

I am sure all these regatta's will continue to allow boats that are not members of the ASBA to race in the division and handicapped via SMS. So in the end the ASBA members will have their own little irrelevant pointscore as a subset of the rest of the fleet

Do you think MHYC will say no to the Magic and 3 Elliotts in the Sportsboat fleet of 11 because the ASBA don't like them

ALl they have to do is change

4.2.5 All boats entered in the Sports Boats Class shall be trailable boats that meet the
requirements of the Australian Sports Boat Association Rules and Constitution.
The regatta is open to all boats classified as Sports Boats, as defined by the Australian
Sports boat Association, with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater.
(Boats entered in the Sports Boats Class will be handicapped using the Sports Boat
Measurement System (SMS, with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater), except as amended in
this Notice of Race or the Sailing Instructions.)

To

4.2.5 All boats entered in the Sports Boats Class shall be trailable boats with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater.
(Boats entered in the Sports Boats Class will be handicapped using the Sports Boat
Measurement System (SMS, with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater), except as amended in
this Notice of Race or the Sailing Instructions.)

#377 Team WIld

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:28 AM

In all reality for the E's it doesn't really matter. The ASBA have a Nationals and some State titles.

The rest are all regattas using the SMS rating system that are independent of the ASBA, Geelong, Airlie Sydney etc

I am sure all these regatta's will continue to allow boats that are not members of the ASBA to race in the division and handicapped via SMS. So in the end the ASBA members will have their own little irrelevant pointscore as a subset of the rest of the fleet



Mate thats an interesting point. Not sure its a good thing, however possibly very true. From my understanding ASBA has been very good for sports boat racing so would be a shame to see it go this way. I personally feel that if we (boat owners) dont support ASBA it will die then no one will win a 10 boat Nationals ;) . What we really need to do is get behind ASBA, this issue of the Sym has no doubt caused harm to them is someway, those that voted in favor may not appreciate the one, two, threee, ten boats that ultimatly dont attend regattas as its the National SB trophy in the cabinet that counts even if there is only 5 or 6 boats!! While this change does not cause me any personal concern I FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE with it, if YV as the independant agreed it was in the interest of SMS then so be it, but apparently they disagreed, so are ASBA using SMS or not? I will make a call next week to the Airlie organising committee (whom I know well) and ask the question regarding their Si regarding SB fleet, do you need to be an ASBA member to race SB fleet there, will they enforce the sym ban?? But in all Honesty all the FACTS need to be presented. For example:

1. When does this rule take place. (There are some corporate laws governing this).
2. If you can have articulating poles what has really been achieved by this ban?? Has ASBA set a ALU and ALE differential to qualify an A sail?? Is a 5% SLU/SLE difference considered an ASSY??? What stops me using an articulating pole and a fat A sail (A1 runner) and achieving the same thing as sym and pole???

This banning will promote loophole develpment!! And it will all get out of control. Just follow the SMS rating as it reads and ASBA is clean, make adjustments and people are always going to suggest dirty tactics.

Maybe we pledge support to ASBA and people who disagree with the decisions made can take on committee positions and change back, but would need to be careful; they are not seen to be assisting certain boats, Very hard indeed. I guess its too late to change the vote at teh AGM so get around it sym boats!

#378 Humungus

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 01:12 AM

I have never been a member of ASBA but was considering it in the future. I like the Elliotts and Magics as they provide great bang for your buck in sportsboats. The Magic gets killed on handicap in One Design configuration. Get rid of the traps, sym pole and bingo, a very well sailed boat can compete in some conditions. Fortunately for them they couldn't dominate or even win a regatta otherwise the shit would have really hit the fan.
I believe ASBA would do well to make sure punters with these older boats can compete to build their membership. The punters with a limited budget may start sailing in some numbers which is what it is all about. You would find modified Magics would not do as well as the Evil boat because they would not be sailed as well.
SMS is a rating system so boats will be designed and optimised to perform well under it. Some owners will optimise their boats for fun and line honours and forget about the rating game.
I have been told the Elliotts have been grandfathered for two years, after that they are banned but can apply for an exemption. If this is true then no wonder the E7 guys have their noses out of joint.
The gist of what I've read here indicates the Magic was banned because it was doing too well with a modified sail plan. Where do you draw the line on optimisation? The Thompsons and other boats often come out with different sail measured in with the consequent handicap advantage. Are code zeros to be banned for passage races? Don't know if ASBA does passages.
If someone converts an 18 foot skiff into a keelboat therefore dumbing it down, will it be banned if it goes too well? Sorry an extreme example!
I can understand where the few who voted for this proposal were coming from however I personallythink it should have been put into the "knee jerk reaction bin" before it got to a vote.

#379 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 01:29 AM

I have never been a member of ASBA but was considering it in the future. I like the Elliotts and Magics as they provide great bang for your buck in sportsboats. The Magic gets killed on handicap in One Design configuration. Get rid of the traps, sym pole and bingo, a very well sailed boat can compete in some conditions. Fortunately for them they couldn't dominate or even win a regatta otherwise the shit would have really hit the fan.
I believe ASBA would do well to make sure punters with these older boats can compete to build their membership. The punters with a limited budget may start sailing in some numbers which is what it is all about. You would find modified Magics would not do as well as the Evil boat because they would not be sailed as well.
SMS is a rating system so boats will be designed and optimised to perform well under it. Some owners will optimise their boats for fun and line honours and forget about the rating game.
I have been told the Elliotts have been grandfathered for two years, after that they are banned but can apply for an exemption. If this is true then no wonder the E7 guys have their noses out of joint.
The gist of what I've read here indicates the Magic was banned because it was doing too well with a modified sail plan. Only regatta won there was no light boats entered! Still only 1 regatta but! Where do you draw the line on optimisation? The Thompsons and other boats often come out with different sail measured in with the consequent handicap advantage. And when done, rule changed ASAP! Are code zeros to be banned for passage races? Don't know if ASBA does passages. Passage races are done in nationals, and code zero's are used, but not measured, as some are real borderline if they are zero's at all, or mast head jibs! :blink:
If someone converts an 18 foot skiff into a keelboat therefore dumbing it down, will it be banned if it goes too well? Sorry an extreme example! Dont be sorry, it has been done in brisbane, by someone who posts in here, and was banned!I can understand where the few who voted for this proposal were coming from however I personallythink it should have been put into the "knee jerk reaction bin" before it got to a vote.


Funny you mention sailed well, some of the class style boats winning regattas dont go near placing in like fleets either!

But as we have seen in posts earlier, only newer boats should win, the rest should just keep putting money into there boats and just make up the numbers, and just like it!

#380 SYCFCC

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 05:40 AM

In all reality for the E's it doesn't really matter. The ASBA have a Nationals and some State titles.

The rest are all regattas using the SMS rating system that are independent of the ASBA, Geelong, Airlie Sydney etc

I am sure all these regatta's will continue to allow boats that are not members of the ASBA to race in the division and handicapped via SMS. So in the end the ASBA members will have their own little irrelevant pointscore as a subset of the rest of the fleet

Do you think MHYC will say no to the Magic and 3 Elliotts in the Sportsboat fleet of 11 because the ASBA don't like them

ALl they have to do is change

4.2.5 All boats entered in the Sports Boats Class shall be trailable boats that meet the
requirements of the Australian Sports Boat Association Rules and Constitution.
The regatta is open to all boats classified as Sports Boats, as defined by the Australian
Sports boat Association, with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater.
(Boats entered in the Sports Boats Class will be handicapped using the Sports Boat
Measurement System (SMS, with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater), except as amended in
this Notice of Race or the Sailing Instructions.)

To

4.2.5 All boats entered in the Sports Boats Class shall be trailable boats with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater.
(Boats entered in the Sports Boats Class will be handicapped using the Sports Boat
Measurement System (SMS, with an SMS rating of 0.755 or greater), except as amended in
this Notice of Race or the Sailing Instructions.)


Ding Ding, You have a winner.

#381 Barman

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:48 AM

So my understanding is that there was only a handful of e7s that are members of ASBA.at the major sports boat regattas there is usually one or 2. So is it really that e7s aren't wanted by the asba fraternity or the other way round? My understanding is that e7s as a class will still be welcome to be part of asba.

are any of these statements wrong?

and just as a quick correction there is no way in hell that a modern sportsboat is faster with a symmetric. try and convince a shaw owner to put a symmetric on and 99% of the time it would be way behind.

Possibly due to the fact some of us are Paying of a mortgage, raising kids. Whilst trying to do as much in life as possible, we are not all single, or dinks with endless amounts of coin to splash at Mega sized trailer sailor campaigns. Perhaps we buy E7's because they can be sailed short handed, with room below for the rug rats to run amuck! Galabanting around the country is not everyone's cup of tea ;-)

#382 F15 AUS

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 11:23 AM

ntman. What about the older sportsboats with syms? Rocket 780s, E780s, 770,s ect. It is borderline weather these boats are faster with aso's or syms, and thay came out with syms. Are thay sportsboats? If thay are not illegible as standard, ASBA has become a small fleet of brand new boats with no older boats to bring people in. I might just play with the TYA crowd instead

#383 83TER

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 12:50 PM

ntman. What about the older sportsboats with syms? Rocket 780s, E780s, 770,s ect. It is borderline weather these boats are faster with aso's or syms, and thay came out with syms. Are thay sportsboats? If thay are not illegible as standard, ASBA has become a small fleet of brand new boats with no older boats to bring people in. I might just play with the TYA crowd instead



I dont think your F15 will rate as a TY ?

#384 Team WIld

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 01:14 PM

:lol:


ntman. What about the older sportsboats with syms? Rocket 780s, E780s, 770,s ect. It is borderline weather these boats are faster with aso's or syms, and thay came out with syms. Are thay sportsboats? If thay are not illegible as standard, ASBA has become a small fleet of brand new boats with no older boats to bring people in. I might just play with the TYA crowd instead



I dont think your F15 will rate as a TY ?



but if you put 2 functional bunks in a cabin of enough volume.............;) they would be welcome!!!!:lol:

#385 F15 AUS

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 01:40 PM


ntman. What about the older sportsboats with syms? Rocket 780s, E780s, 770,s ect. It is borderline weather these boats are faster with aso's or syms, and thay came out with syms. Are thay sportsboats? If thay are not illegible as standard, ASBA has become a small fleet of brand new boats with no older boats to bring people in. I might just play with the TYA crowd instead



I dont think your F15 will rate as a TY ?

Hay Mate. Bad luck in the last race at the nationals

Soon to not have the F15 and looking at sportsboats. (I wish I had the spare cash to buy your boat)

#386 Barman

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 03:12 PM


ntman. What about the older sportsboats with syms? Rocket 780s, E780s, 770,s ect. It is borderline weather these boats are faster with aso's or syms, and thay came out with syms. Are thay sportsboats? If thay are not illegible as standard, ASBA has become a small fleet of brand new boats with no older boats to bring people in. I might just play with the TYA crowd instead



I dont think your F15 will rate as a TY ?

Does yours?

#387 83TER

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:38 PM



ntman. What about the older sportsboats with syms? Rocket 780s, E780s, 770,s ect. It is borderline weather these boats are faster with aso's or syms, and thay came out with syms. Are thay sportsboats? If thay are not illegible as standard, ASBA has become a small fleet of brand new boats with no older boats to bring people in. I might just play with the TYA crowd instead



I dont think your F15 will rate as a TY ?

Does yours?


No it dont i would rather leave the TYing to all you muppets

#388 Fun police

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 11:38 PM

At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...

#389 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:21 AM

At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal as voted on by the ASBA membership in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


You aren't missing anything...the opposite it is true. You are adding in all kinds of BS. In fact Syms were not even banned. What was banned was converting Assy boats to Sym boats. The reason is highlighted above.

#390 Barman

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:21 AM

At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...

No your not missing anything, back to the future!

#391 Barman

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:26 AM




ntman. What about the older sportsboats with syms? Rocket 780s, E780s, 770,s ect. It is borderline weather these boats are faster with aso's or syms, and thay came out with syms. Are thay sportsboats? If thay are not illegible as standard, ASBA has become a small fleet of brand new boats with no older boats to bring people in. I might just play with the TYA crowd instead



I dont think your F15 will rate as a TY ?

Does yours?


No it dont i would rather leave the TYing to all you muppets

Geez m8 resorted to name calling!

#392 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:28 AM

At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


Mate, that makes atleast two of us (confused). Logic lends itself to arise at the conclusion that People like Turkey Slapper are right. The irony is that apparently sym gets a better rating than assy, this is COMPLETE BULLSHIT, it does NOT matter what cut of spinnaker you have if M2 are the same it rates the same. The Devil boat uses sym to shorten the distance between two marks as it doesnt plane easily enough to cover the extra distance to speed ratio required by ASSY (therefore apparent wont come forwards enough and angles are greater). They also reduced working sail area I believe. Now while some may think I (along with others) have no idea (which proves to me their ignorance and lack of sailing dynamic knowledge) I put this to everyone. If a boat such as the devil boat reduces the horsepower available to it (smaller sails) and its performance has NOT beed reduced (or improved) something else MUST have changed (unless it was over powered initially). The Magics were (are) a well designed and thoughtout boat so I doubt they were overpowered (although they were initially designed for traps). If I were to have a bet I would bet that the foils have been modified......but what do I knoiw right!!! Funny thing is IMO the sails probably havenot made the difference I am betting it is a keel mod and possibly rudder?????

Everyone has stated that the SYM is slower than ASSY, it may well balance out over the distance travelled that it is on par or possibly slightly faster, but someone please explain how their overall performance with greatly reduced sail area (to achieve better rating) has not been effected, am I missing something or are all the Devil boat knockers missing something proving their lack of design principle knowledge.

#393 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:31 AM


At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal as voted on by the ASBA membership in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


You aren't missing anything...the opposite it is true. You are adding in all kinds of BS. In fact Syms were not even banned. What was banned was converting Assy boats to Sym boats. The reason is highlighted above.



Sorry mate I think syms are banned as are non fixed poles, may be wrong but no one on here will completely clarify. Here is the proposed constitution change as posted here, not sure if there were any amendments. 4.1.13 Uses only asymmetrical downwind sails, with definite
luff and leech, flown by fixing its tack onto the boat’s bow or onto a fixed, retractable
and/or articulating bowsprit”.


#394 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:54 AM



At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal as voted on by the ASBA membership in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


You aren't missing anything...the opposite it is true. You are adding in all kinds of BS. In fact Syms were not even banned. What was banned was converting Assy boats to Sym boats. The reason is highlighted above.



Sorry mate I think syms are banned as are non fixed poles, may be wrong but no one on here will completely clarify. Here is the proposed constitution change as posted here, not sure if there were any amendments. 4.1.13 Uses only asymmetrical downwind sails, with definite
luff and leech, flown by fixing its tack onto the boat’s bow or onto a fixed, retractable
and/or articulating bowsprit”.


Yup, I understand the wording may not reflect the rational....but the "exemptions" ie for the E7 fixes it. I never heard anyone saying we need to "get rid of syms"...what was being said was "we need to stop people converting assy to sym".

#395 furcoat

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:03 AM

At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


Not quite - (and this is only my interpretation) - The association voted to remove the sym kite option because of a "perceived"* loophole in SMS which appears to give sym kites a leg-up in rating terms. (by extension maybe this is because SMS doesn't differentiate between sailing angles per se, only sail area - but thats a separate issue). Rather than have the fleet rush out and sym their boats to exploit a "percieved" loophole, the motion was to effectively maintain asso boats as asso. Anything with a class history of racing in sym configuration gets a nod to stay as is. In fact it would be better to race a lot of e7's at ASBA events to gather the data needed to either refine the system, reverse it or leave it alone.

*"perceived" is in quotes (by me) because I don't know what the evidence is for this - dont get me wrong it may be very good - I just don't know.


For the record -

I am an ASBA member, I own and sail an asso boat, I wasn't at the meeting, I voted against the motion, I trust the committee when they say their intention is to not to exclude boats from racing.

#396 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:04 AM


At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


Mate, that makes atleast two of us (confused). Logic lends itself to arise at the conclusion that People like Turkey Slapper are right. The irony is that apparently sym gets a better rating than assy, this is COMPLETE BULLSHIT, it does NOT matter what cut of spinnaker you have if M2 are the same it rates the same. The Devil boat uses sym to shorten the distance between two marks as it doesnt plane easily enough to cover the extra distance to speed ratio required by ASSY (therefore apparent wont come forwards enough and angles are greater). They also reduced working sail area I believe. Now while some may think I (along with others) have no idea (which proves to me their ignorance and lack of sailing dynamic knowledge) I put this to everyone. If a boat such as the devil boat reduces the horsepower available to it (smaller sails) and its performance has NOT beed reduced (or improved) something else MUST have changed (unless it was over powered initially). The Magics were (are) a well designed and thoughtout boat so I doubt they were overpowered (although they were initially designed for traps). If I were to have a bet I would bet that the foils have been modified......but what do I knoiw right!!! Funny thing is IMO the sails probably havenot made the difference I am betting it is a keel mod and possibly rudder?????

Everyone has stated that the SYM is slower than ASSY, it may well balance out over the distance travelled that it is on par or possibly slightly faster, but someone please explain how their overall performance with greatly reduced sail area (to achieve better rating) has not been effected, am I missing something or are all the Devil boat knockers missing something proving their lack of design principle knowledge.


You need to look up the differnce between "velocity" and "speed". ASBA wants to encourage "speed". You also need to look up the difference between "sail area" and "projected sail area" as it relates to Spinnakers, and you need to look up the difference between "available horse power" and "useful horse power" as it relates to working sails and righting moment (ie do traps have a material effect righting moment?). Some of the answers might surprise you.

#397 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:07 AM




At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal as voted on by the ASBA membership in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


You aren't missing anything...the opposite it is true. You are adding in all kinds of BS. In fact Syms were not even banned. What was banned was converting Assy boats to Sym boats. The reason is highlighted above.



Sorry mate I think syms are banned as are non fixed poles, may be wrong but no one on here will completely clarify. Here is the proposed constitution change as posted here, not sure if there were any amendments. 4.1.13 Uses only asymmetrical downwind sails, with definite
luff and leech, flown by fixing its tack onto the boat's bow or onto a fixed, retractable
and/or articulating bowsprit".


Yup, I understand the wording may not reflect the rational....but the "exemptions" ie for the E7 fixes it. I never heard anyone saying we need to "get rid of syms"...what was being said was "we need to stop people converting assy to sym".


Yes the exemption does fix it so why the ban on syms if you then provide exemptions to everyone it is related to? The Magic was already converted so are you saying ASBA will apply this NO Sym rule retrospectively? I reckon its great the E7 etc are being given "exemptions" but based on reasoning argued here it isnt safe having syms running down the rhumbline with hot assys weaving in and out of them, amongst other reasons, so if syms are banned why allow all but one???? As a few have said doesnt make sense?

#398 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:15 AM





At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal as voted on by the ASBA membership in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


You aren't missing anything...the opposite it is true. You are adding in all kinds of BS. In fact Syms were not even banned. What was banned was converting Assy boats to Sym boats. The reason is highlighted above.



Sorry mate I think syms are banned as are non fixed poles, may be wrong but no one on here will completely clarify. Here is the proposed constitution change as posted here, not sure if there were any amendments. 4.1.13 Uses only asymmetrical downwind sails, with definite
luff and leech, flown by fixing its tack onto the boat's bow or onto a fixed, retractable
and/or articulating bowsprit".


Yup, I understand the wording may not reflect the rational....but the "exemptions" ie for the E7 fixes it. I never heard anyone saying we need to "get rid of syms"...what was being said was "we need to stop people converting assy to sym".


Yes the exemption does fix it so why the ban on syms if you then provide exemptions to everyone it is related to? The Magic was already converted so are you saying ASBA will apply this NO Sym rule retrospectively?The Magic was bought as Assy and converted by the new owners to race ASBA last year. I dont know what will happen with this boat I reckon its great the E7 etc are being given "exemptions" but based on reasoning argued here "Reasoning" argued here is irrelevant, and does not in anyway reflect ASBA, or its membership, infact many of the people arguing here have been trying to destroy ASBA, and anything that doesnt suit their own circumstances for years.it isnt safe having syms running down the rhumbline with hot assys weaving in and out of them, amongst other reasons, so if syms are banned why allow all but one???? As a few have said doesnt make sense?Correct. Most of the "reasoning" here doesnt make sense, simply because they are not trying to create a solid rationale, rather they are trying to confuse, destroy and distract. Its sad, and was the main reason ASBA had to create its own board, and why many sport boaters dont post or read here anymore.



#399 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:30 AM

I reckon its great the E7 etc are being given "exemptions"


then STFU already

what the fuck are you still bleating about

your boat is asymm & not suited to sym
you don't sail in sportsboat regattas & as you admit are not up to that level

#400 steveromagnino

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:32 AM

I am no expert but under irc and I believe sms the benefit of a sym kite is the reduction in the stl meausrement; rather that the prod ending 5.5m in front of the mast the pole on a 6.5m boat might be 3m with the added benefit of being able to square back yet rating lower.

So to say the sail area is the same so the boats rate the same is wrong if the rule rates the prod length (stl) and this increases the rating. One shaw 650 has tested running shorter stl and marginally smaller kite and it drop rating about 1%+.

Going to sym kite proportions the gap would be posssibly larger.naturally boats running both systems will not benefit because stl is the longer optio which is their prod.

If you make stl almost free in the rating system and area cheap then the magics credit from their downsize would cease to make sense. But it would also affect all the other boats with stubby prods and smallish downwind sails.




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