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#401 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:33 AM

bowsprit".
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Yup, I understand the wording may not reflect the rational....but the "exemptions" ie for the E7 fixes it. I never heard anyone saying we need to "get rid of syms"...what was being said was "we need to stop people converting assy to sym".
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Yes the exemption does fix it so why the ban on syms if you then provide exemptions to everyone it is related to? The Magic was already converted so are you saying ASBA will apply this NO Sym rule retrospectively?The Magic was bought as Assy and converted by the new owners to race ASBA last year. I dont know what will happen with this boat I reckon its great the E7 etc are being given "exemptions" but based on reasoning argued here "Reasoning" argued here is irrelevant, and does not in anyway reflect ASBA, or its membership, infact many of the people arguing here have been trying to destroy ASBA, and anything that doesnt suit their own circumstances for years.it isnt safe having syms running down the rhumbline with hot assys weaving in and out of them, amongst other reasons, so if syms are banned why allow all but one???? As a few have said doesnt make sense?Correct. Most of the "reasoning" here doesnt make sense, simply because they are not trying to create a solid rationale, rather they are trying to confuse, destroy and distract. Its sad, and was the main reason ASBA had to create its own board, and why many sport boaters dont post or read here anymore.
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I dont think it is fair to say that the opinions of people here are irrelivant, everyone with an interest in sports boats should be respected for their opinion (except GS!), with respect mate it is this very attitude that will destroy associations like ASBA. SMS was and remains one of (if not the) best rating systems available, sure there is some tweaking required, however as far as rating systems go it is arguably the best. When people start making "amendments" from the system it no longer is at arms length and becomes manipulated, IMO this may result in further "amendments" exemptions ect. Which will cause even more discontent. At the end of the day "ememptions" may be granted and they can be taken away, the elliots could just as easily be banned if it suits...sorry :(

#402 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:50 AM

I am no expert but under irc and I believe sms the benefit of a sym kite is the reduction in the stl meausrement; rather that the prod ending 5.5m in front of the mast the pole on a 6.5m boat might be 3m with the added benefit of being able to square back yet rating lower.

So to say the sail area is the same so the boats rate the same is wrong if the rule rates the prod length (stl) and this increases the rating. One shaw 650 has tested running shorter stl and marginally smaller kite and it drop rating about 1%+. More than likely due to smaller sail area, I also believe that STL can somewaht be directly related back to sail area as generally a longer STL will result in larger sail area. I have measured ASSY and STM and had test certs generated with the same M2 (all other measuremenst being equal) when trying to figure out what would rate better no difference! Maybe this was an anomoly or coincidence and it will make difference but not from what I have seen.

Going to sym kite proportions the gap would be posssibly larger.naturally boats running both systems will not benefit because stl is the longer optio which is their prod.

If you make stl almost free in the rating system and area cheap then the magics credit from their downsize would cease to make sense. But it would also affect all the other boats with stubby prods and smallish downwind sails. With regard to the Magic, as I have said, smaller horsepower to achieve better rating....why hasnt it slowed down. I will be anyone a thousand dollars that they have modified either the keel, rudder of both, this is the only logical explination for their lack of performance loss.



#403 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:21 AM

I am no expert but under irc and I believe sms the benefit of a sym kite is the reduction in the stl meausrement; rather that the prod ending 5.5m in front of the mast the pole on a 6.5m boat might be 3m with the added benefit of being able to square back yet rating lower.

So to say the sail area is the same so the boats rate the same is wrong if the rule rates the prod length (stl) and this increases the rating. One shaw 650 has tested running shorter stl and marginally smaller kite and it drop rating about 1%+. More than likely due to smaller sail area, I also believe that STL can somewaht be directly related back to sail area as generally a longer STL will result in larger sail area. I have measured ASSY and STM and had test certs generated with the same M2 (all other measuremenst being equal) when trying to figure out what would rate better no difference! Maybe this was an anomoly or coincidence and it will make difference but not from what I have seen. Please stop. You clearly have no intent of understanding anything and are obvioulsy just here to stir shit. It has been written several times now, that SMS doesnt not distringuish between SYM or ASSY so of course if you have the same sail area, you will get the same rating.

Going to sym kite proportions the gap would be posssibly larger.naturally boats running both systems will not benefit because stl is the longer optio which is their prod.

If you make stl almost free in the rating system and area cheap then the magics credit from their downsize would cease to make sense. But it would also affect all the other boats with stubby prods and smallish downwind sails. With regard to the Magic, as I have said, smaller horsepower to achieve better rating....why hasnt it slowed downAgain, please stop. The boat did lose speed, but increased velocity. Simple. IF you dont understand the difference between these terms, please look them up before posting again.. I will be anyone a thousand dollars that they have modified either the keel, rudder of both, this is the only logical explination for their lack of performance loss.



#404 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 03:55 AM

So to say the sail area is the same so the boats rate the same is wrong if the rule rates the prod length (stl) and this increases the rating. One shaw 650 has tested running shorter stl and marginally smaller kite and it drop rating about 1%+. More than likely due to smaller sail area, I also believe that STL can somewaht be directly related back to sail area as generally a longer STL will result in larger sail area. I have measured ASSY and STM and had test certs generated with the same M2 (all other measuremenst being equal) when trying to figure out what would rate better no difference! Maybe this was an anomoly or coincidence and it will make difference but not from what I have seen. Please stop. You clearly have no intent of understanding anything and are obvioulsy just here to stir shit. It has been written several times now, that SMS doesnt not distringuish between SYM or ASSY so of course if you have the same sail area, you will get the same rating.

Going to sym kite proportions the gap would be posssibly larger.naturally boats running both systems will not benefit because stl is the longer optio which is their prod.

If you make stl almost free in the rating system and area cheap then the magics credit from their downsize would cease to make sense. But it would also affect all the other boats with stubby prods and smallish downwind sails. With regard to the Magic, as I have said, smaller horsepower to achieve better rating....why hasnt it slowed downAgain, please stop. The boat did lose speed, but increased velocity. Simple. IF you dont understand the difference between these terms, please look them up before posting again.. I will be anyone a thousand dollars that they have modified either the keel, rudder of both, this is the only logical explination for their lack of performance loss.
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OMG! You want to argue with me on physics, ok. Speed is distance over time, velocity is a vector measurement or simply the rate and direction of the change in the position of an object. So while the magic as I stated in earlier now chooses to sail deeper and slower it is ultimatly achieving the same elapsed times around the course, therefore in seems you want to be so technically correct if the Magis is finishing around the same position and boats as it always has it is (while technically going slower in a straight line down hill) its overall speed (in the sense of time) around the course has not changed so in a given course its speed has not changed, technically yes it is covering less distance therefore its Kn/per hour may be down but a course is set to a distance, how people get around it in this debate is irrelevant given the elapsed time is what matters. So the Magic is getting around the course without loss of elapsed time with a reduced sail area.

Given your statement I assume you believe that the sym is why there has been zero improvement in results (as a finishing position) because they simply travel a lesser distance at a slower pace and as such the downhill improvement has been more than adequate to compensate for the loss of upwind speed due to smaller working sail area, how many boats do they pass downwind? Mate you may well be a physics professor but you are barking up the wrong tree if you think the overall performance increase (lower rating yet still just as fast around the course (finishing around the same boats)) is simply due to the sym, telling you mate it HAS HAD KEEL and/or RUDDER mods. Maybe someone who knows the boat can ask them and we can put this sym debate to bed once and for all and ban keel mods!!!

If the sym ban was due to safety reasons (faster points of sail of assy over sym) then the E7 and other sym boats shouls NOT be grandfathered. The way you debate is horribly like Gybeset, are you an alias????

#405 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:00 AM

At the risk of going round in circles I just don't get it. Sure I'm not that bright but let's see if I have this straight.

The rationale behind banning syms is that they sail different angles, they are not as "fun" as , they don't fit the sportsboat ideal in some random person's head, and the different angles create risk to faster boats doing hotter angles (based on the conversation here rather than anything else). So why the hell would you grandfather the boats in where the same issues will remain. Either let everyone use them or piss them all off without grandfathering. Am I missing something...


Mate, that makes atleast two of us (confused). Logic lends itself to arise at the conclusion that People like Turkey Slapper are right. The irony is that apparently sym gets a better rating than assy, this is COMPLETE BULLSHIT, it does NOT matter what cut of spinnaker you have if M2 are the same it rates the same. The Devil boat uses sym to shorten the distance between two marks as it doesnt plane easily enough to cover the extra distance to speed ratio required by ASSY (therefore apparent wont come forwards enough and angles are greater). They also reduced working sail area I believe. Now while some may think I (along with others) have no idea (which proves to me their ignorance and lack of sailing dynamic knowledge) I put this to everyone. If a boat such as the devil boat reduces the horsepower available to it (smaller sails) and its performance has NOT beed reduced (or improved) something else MUST have changed (unless it was over powered initially). The Magics were (are) a well designed and thoughtout boat so I doubt they were overpowered (although they were initially designed for traps). If I were to have a bet I would bet that the foils have been modified......but what do I knoiw right!!! Funny thing is IMO the sails probably havenot made the difference I am betting it is a keel mod and possibly rudder?????

Everyone has stated that the SYM is slower than ASSY, it may well balance out over the distance travelled that it is on par or possibly slightly faster, but someone please explain how their overall performance with greatly reduced sail area (to achieve better rating) has not been effected, am I missing something or are all the Devil boat knockers missing something proving their lack of design principle knowledge.


You need to look up the differnce between "velocity" and "speed". ASBA wants to encourage "speed". You also need to look up the difference between "sail area" and "projected sail area" as it relates to Spinnakers, and you need to look up the difference between "available horse power" and "useful horse power" as it relates to working sails and righting moment (ie do traps have a material effect righting moment?). Some of the answers might surprise you.


Ok are you willing to bet me a Grand regarding that they have modified their keel or rudder or both?????? I reckon I know a little more that you about this ;)

#406 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:17 AM

You never looked up those terms did you. <_< Sorry I should have added, and took the time to understand them so you can apply them. You confused the terms again in your very first paragraph of post #404. :rolleyes:

#407 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:29 AM

You never looked up those terms did you. Posted Image


Sorry mate if you have a different interpretation please share! Are you saying the magis is now slower in elapsed time around the course, if you are you need to do some research. If you also spend a bit reading this forum as i have clearly discussed sail efficiency and the fact too much sail may well generate drag etc. However knowing the Magic they were not over dressed in working sails. Your comment stating righting moment only serves to prove lack of design knowledge, thats ok you surely have a great understanding in many areas and I respect this. Hull form stability is very complex and specifically righting moment, as there are several forms of righting moment and stability in the design world. Sorry mate this is an area I have had interest in for many years.

I am not here to argue with you nor as you suggest stir shit. As you rightly pointed out many have agreed that ASSY and SYM are NOT diffierentiated in SMS so how did Magic achieve lower rating...smaller sails? How have they maintained their relative elapsed times????? WANNA TAKE THAT BET??? Ill give you two to one odds, I am betting smaller bulb size and a better NACA section.

#408 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 04:33 AM

You never looked up those terms did you. Posted Image


Sorry mate if you have a different interpretation please share! Are you saying the magis is now slower in elapsed time around the course, if you are you need to do some research. If you also spend a bit reading this forum as i have clearly discussed sail efficiency and the fact too much sail may well generate drag etc. However knowing the Magic they were not over dressed in working sails. Your comment stating righting moment only serves to prove lack of design knowledge, thats ok you surely have a great understanding in many areas and I respect this. Hull form stability is very complex and specifically righting moment, as there are several forms of righting moment and stability in the design world. Sorry mate this is an area I have had interest in for many years.

I am not here to argue with you nor as you suggest stir shit. As you rightly pointed out many have agreed that ASSY and SYM are NOT diffierentiated in SMS so how did Magic achieve lower rating...smaller sails? How have they maintained their relative elapsed times????? WANNA TAKE THAT BET??? Ill give you two to one odds, I am betting smaller bulb size and a better NACA section.


Sorry, you still are confusing terms, concepts and ideas. Slow down, do some research, and then come back to us. Until then..bye.

#409 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 07:59 AM

because he has not participated SB

how he thinks you can grasp it without going to SB events? oh that would be online

That would require asking & listening, not dictating as if you u'stood WTF was going on
Is clearly displaying he fails to comprehend the replies to his posts

e,g, for the 3rd time still bleating the OD Magic class can't use traps!

more to the point than the above/ the topic here in no way affects his design boat and
also won't affect one that does not travel to SB events. so WTF? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?


#410 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:21 AM

Dont forget the E7 is still allowed to compete in ASBA events

Don't forget the (ACT based) Australian Magic 25 OD association boats can race in ASBA events




#411 (p)Irate

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:54 AM

I am not here to argue with you nor as you suggest stir shit. As you rightly pointed out many have agreed that ASSY and SYM are NOT diffierentiated in SMS so how did Magic achieve lower rating...smaller sails?

So if you know so much how SMS works can you please explain why a member of the ASBA Technical Committee at the AGM provided information that when rating spinnakers of the same area the Asso comes in 1.5 times higher than the sym. Steveromagino above suggests a possible reason why this is so. You claim it is not so. Why? Evidence please.

#412 (p)Irate

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 08:58 AM

Sorry, think it was Elliot7 who made the "kites are measured the same area for area in SMS" call. Whatever, whoever. Evidence from YV to contradict the ASBA Technical Committee claim made at the AGM please.

It was a critical point which cemented my decision to vote for.

#413 Me Off

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:04 AM

Personally I have been very disappointed with the ASBA since I bought my boat for the following reasons. I bought my elliott 7 only a year ago, I also race dinghy's on weekends, during the sailing season I paid my full membership at the end of the season and paid a full membership but because of my weekend sailing commitments I didn't have time to race in any sms regattas last season. That's when the problems started I then A couple of weeks later I received a membership renewal form again. I chose not to renew as I felt I was not ready to pay to be a member if it was so financially motivated. Then just as I started buying new sails to get ready for a season racing again in ASBA I hear of the vote to vote out double luff kites. Obviously this affects me and has just run through the idea to me that the ASBA is a very financially motivated association to race in as after seeing a magic 25 win it appears that it has made a lot of people with new modern boats noses out of joint. For the reasons stated above and from hearing about all the other exceptions for other classes whats the point of sms. I was looking forward to racing sms this season as even though my boat was never at the regattas in the past I was generally at the bar when they finished. But after this vote has been passed (why a committee even allowed a vote, maybe the committee was sick of being beaten by cheap boats) you have successfully turned another boat away. A boat that is heavily involved in junior dinghy fleets where members come from. Very sad to say but allowing a vote like this to be not only put forward but also passed it will have left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and could split the association leading to its collapse. If I was in the commitee at the next meeting I would put forward a motion to forget about all this and put it all in the bin.
enough said

Also as stated my comments don't represent those of the ASBA and is only my feelings on paper.

#414 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 09:58 AM

Personally I have been very disappointed with the ASBA since I bought my boat for the following reasons. I bought my elliott 7 only a year ago, I also race dinghy's on weekends, during the sailing season I paid my full membership at the end of the season and paid a full membership but because of my weekend sailing commitments I didn't have time to race in any sms regattas last season. That's when the problems started I then A couple of weeks later I received a membership renewal form again. I chose not to renew as I felt I was not ready to pay to be a member if it was so financially motivated. Then just as I started buying new sails to get ready for a season racing again in ASBA I hear of the vote to vote out double luff kites. Obviously this affects me and has just run through the idea to me that the ASBA is a very financially motivated association to race in as after seeing a magic 25 win it appears that it has made a lot of people with new modern boats noses out of joint. For the reasons stated above and from hearing about all the other exceptions for other classes whats the point of sms. I was looking forward to racing sms this season as even though my boat was never at the regattas in the past I was generally at the bar when they finished. But after this vote has been passed (why a committee even allowed a vote, maybe the committee was sick of being beaten by cheap boats) you have successfully turned another boat away. A boat that is heavily involved in junior dinghy fleets where members come from. Very sad to say but allowing a vote like this to be not only put forward but also passed it will have left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and could split the association leading to its collapse. If I was in the commitee at the next meeting I would put forward a motion to forget about all this and put it all in the bin.
enough said

Also as stated my comments don't represent those of the ASBA and is only my feelings on paper.



Mate I feel the same way, I was excited about becoming a member of ASBA then this crap happened. For the record I have a boat that actually benefits from this ruling and quite frankly am quite dissapointed to see what is happening. Yachting Vic didnt want or seem to feel (from statements on here) to make the change so why do it???

Pirate, I think a few people have made the statement that Sym/Assy sail area is not a factor it is M2 calculated. I am not sure how anyone has arrived at the conclusion an assy rates 1.5 times more, did they produce certificates to prove this???? After TS suggested ASBA blamed YV for the short luff change I contacted a friend of mine with inner knowledge of SMS and YV who confirmed what TS said, ASBA initiated the request for change. Now I am not making accusations here, however if ASBA did make the statement as suggested by TS then they have misrepresented what happened, this then brings into question what is being said now. I am always willing to put my money wheer my mouth is so I will submita measurement form on my boat as test certs with Sym of the same size M2 as my assy, and will see what number comes out. Will this put the debate to rest????

#415 F&B

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:39 AM

Wild it's amazing sportsboats fleets survived prior to your entry to the scene!? We don't need a self appointed, clueless Messiah with too much time spent on his computer & as far as I can tell basically zero time spent racing sportsboats so why don't you just STFU?

#416 GRUMPY

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:54 AM

Wild it's amazing sportsboats fleets survived prior to your entry to the scene!? We don't need a self appointed, clueless Messiah with too much time spent on his computer & as far as I can tell basically zero time spent racing sportsboats so why don't you just STFU?


Yeah! This forum's already got one! :lol:

#417 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:08 AM

Sorry, think it was Elliot7 who made the "kites are measured the same area for area in SMS" call. Whatever, whoever. Evidence from YV to contradict the ASBA Technical Committee claim made at the AGM please.

It was a critical point which cemented my decision to vote for.


Just looked this up. I made my statement based on what I was told, also by an ASBA Tech Committe member and measurer, although it was a few years ago. It took abit of looking but it appears things have changed since I was measured. If you look at the 09-10 SMS measuring rule book (still linked on the ASBA site), there is no reference to how different spins are measured. I was told just measure the larger sail area, and that is what is used.

However if you go to the YV site, and look at the latest SMS measuring rule book 2012, the rules have been changed and are now clear that you must submit both figures, and the one offering the highest rating is used. Thus its possible there is a difference and the 1.5 figure given may be true.

Which too me is even stranger, because if they are infact already treating Assy and Sym differnt, why not just adjust the "1.5" inbalance?

#418 (p)Irate

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 11:33 AM

Which too me is even stranger, because if they are infact already treating Assy and Sym differnt, why not just adjust the "1.5" inbalance?

Exactly. The point, from my recollection, that was made at the ASBA AGM was that this point had been raised with YV but YV had insisted on maintaining the status quo.

#419 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 12:19 PM

Which too me is even stranger, because if they are infact already treating Assy and Sym differnt, why not just adjust the "1.5" inbalance?

Exactly. The point, from my recollection, that was made at the ASBA AGM was that this point had been raised with YV but YV had insisted on maintaining the status quo.


Probably cause YV isnt interested in personal gain but the intrests of a whole fleet!

#420 Dipso

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:27 PM

Sorry, think it was Elliot7 who made the "kites are measured the same area for area in SMS" call. Whatever, whoever. Evidence from YV to contradict the ASBA Technical Committee claim made at the AGM please.

It was a critical point which cemented my decision to vote for.


Just looked this up. I made my statement based on what I was told, also by an ASBA Tech Committe member and measurer, although it was a few years ago. It took abit of looking but it appears things have changed since I was measured. If you look at the 09-10 SMS measuring rule book (still linked on the ASBA site), there is no reference to how different spins are measured. I was told just measure the larger sail area, and that is what is used.

However if you go to the YV site, and look at the latest SMS measuring rule book 2012, the rules have been changed and are now clear that you must submit both figures, and the one offering the highest rating is used. Thus its possible there is a difference and the 1.5 figure given may be true.

Which too me is even stranger, because if they are infact already treating Assy and Sym differnt, why not just adjust the "1.5" inbalance?


Be very careful with this, and what the ASBA reps are saying.

I think you will find the SMS rules will see the AREA THE SAME. But it is the STL or SPL will be making the difference. The year books states:

"Spinnaker Type: If an assymetrical and symmetrical spinnaker are both carried then the largest of each type must be measured and the measurements submitted. The measurement for the spinnaker pole, SPL and /or bowsprit, STL to be used with each spinnaker type is to be submitted with the spinnaker dimensions. The certificate will be based on the highest rating."

So in short - not only the area is changing but the STL / SPL is changing, so unless you put the same measurements in for the STL / SPL when you put in an ASSY and a SYM kite of the same area in, you will never know what is changing the resulting rating. THIS IS WHAT THE ASBA REP'S ARE NOT TELLING YOU, or electing not to tell you.

SMS is BY FAR THE BEST RATING FOR SPORTS BOATS, it is just how it is currently being used (or manipulated) by ASBA that is the problem

My problem with all of this is the way in which the ASBA are wanting to change the INDEPENDENT rating rule (yes according to the ASBA constitution the handicap system is independent). When YV tell them that the maths is right and that they are wrong, all they do is change the ASBA rules to get around what the independent "umpire" (AKA - YV) who OWN SMS is saying......

The longer this goes on, the more like the bad old days of CBH the ASBA becomes.

And for the record, I own a sports boat that is set up to use BOTH SYM and ASSY kites, and I have sailed and been active in sportsboats for over 15 years, under both the old CBH and the ASBA systems.

I think the way forward is to continue to use SMS, as it is the best system, but allow the independent agency run it and NOT allow the ASBA to change the rules to get around SMS (YV) saying NO.

#421 Elliot7

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:37 PM

Well wouldnt then the best way forward be for the various boats that do have both Sym and Assy (or could) go out and actually run some "down wind" time trials between two fixed points, across a few different wind ranges to get some actual data. The actual data could then be used to either, acknowledge the current SMS system is correct, or it needs tweaking, and if so by about how much...even YV acknowledges SMS is still in development and requires tweaking. This could help build the data base that drives that tweaking, or keeping the status quo, either way much of the guess work would be reduced. Even the Magic in question could likley also participate as I doubt they went so far as to make it so the boat could never run the Assy again.

#422 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:47 PM

Personally I have been very disappointed with the ASBA since I bought my boat for the following reasons. I bought my elliott 7 only a year ago, I also race dinghy's on weekends, during the sailing season I paid my full membership at the end of the season and paid a full membership but because of my weekend sailing commitments I didn't have time to race in any sms regattas last season. That's when the problems started I then A couple of weeks later I received a membership renewal form again. I chose not to renew as I felt I was not ready to pay to be a member if it was so financially motivated. Then just as I started buying new sails to get ready for a season racing again in ASBA I hear of the vote to vote out double luff kites. Obviously this affects me and has just run through the idea to me that the ASBA is a very financially motivated association to race in as after seeing a magic 25 win it appears that it has made a lot of people with new modern boats noses out of joint. For the reasons stated above and from hearing about all the other exceptions for other classes whats the point of sms. I was looking forward to racing sms this season as even though my boat was never at the regattas in the past I was generally at the bar when they finished. But after this vote has been passed (why a committee even allowed a vote, maybe the committee was sick of being beaten by cheap boats) you have successfully turned another boat away. A boat that is heavily involved in junior dinghy fleets where members come from. Very sad to say but allowing a vote like this to be not only put forward but also passed it will have left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and could split the association leading to its collapse. If I was in the commitee at the next meeting I would put forward a motion to forget about all this and put it all in the bin.
enough said

Also as stated my comments don't represent those of the ASBA and is only my feelings on paper.


your choice of boat has nothing to do with the 'vote'

E7s are 'IN'

#423 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 02:02 PM

Although i do not agree with Dipsos sentiments he has touched on a fact that many here are likely missing when chewing over the 'measuring differences' between asym & symm

that being the pole/sprit (SPL)

off course the sprits are WAY longer & rated as such.

NEXT, the area

blind bloody freddy can see an assy with sqr metres of cloth down at deck level, the Makij symm having 2-3 mtrs of thin air above deck before any spinaker when flying

how on earth could it not rate less when it may not even have 70% of the cloth a sailmaker would need to build an Asym ?

---------------------

but if you think that the above is the sum of the loophole you've been 'smoked & mirrrored', it rates LESS than the other Symm class (that is 2' shorter & in no way extreme)

ask yourself why

#424 Team WIld

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 10:06 PM

Although i do not agree with Dipsos sentiments he has touched on a fact that many here are likely missing when chewing over the 'measuring differences' between asym & symm

that being the pole/sprit (SPL)

off course the sprits are WAY longer & rated as such.

NEXT, the area

blind bloody freddy can see an assy with sqr metres of cloth down at deck level, the Makij symm having 2-3 mtrs of thin air above deck before any spinaker when flying

how on earth could it not rate less when it may not even have 70% of the cloth a sailmaker would need to build an Asym ?

---------------------

but if you think that the above is the sum of the loophole you've been 'smoked & mirrrored', it rates LESS than the other Symm class (that is 2' shorter & in no way extreme)

ask yourself why



Cant actually believe I am about to say this, but you are pretty much spot on GS!! You may find that the magic rates lower because it also has a reduced working sail area. When measuring AMS/SMS we do determine SPL OR STL we also state sail type by the prefix "S" for syms or "A" for assy ie ALU rather than SLU and so on. Possibly Keel mods could also assist in rating drop as well????? You need to ask why a boat with reduced rating still manages to perform around the same as it did with a higher rating??? I think ASBA may have missed what has actually improved the boats performance compared to its rating.....efficiency. Given the wording in the constitution change wouldnt the obvious move now be to use an articulating pole/sprit with a slightly reduced ASLE

#425 facthunt

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:44 AM

Sorry, think it was Elliot7 who made the "kites are measured the same area for area in SMS" call. Whatever, whoever. Evidence from YV to contradict the ASBA Technical Committee claim made at the AGM please.

It was a critical point which cemented my decision to vote for.


Just looked this up. I made my statement based on what I was told, also by an ASBA Tech Committe member and measurer, although it was a few years ago. It took abit of looking but it appears things have changed since I was measured. If you look at the 09-10 SMS measuring rule book (still linked on the ASBA site), there is no reference to how different spins are measured. I was told just measure the larger sail area, and that is what is used.

However if you go to the YV site, and look at the latest SMS measuring rule book 2012, the rules have been changed and are now clear that you must submit both figures, and the one offering the highest rating is used. Thus its possible there is a difference and the 1.5 figure given may be true.

Which too me is even stranger, because if they are infact already treating Assy and Sym differnt, why not just adjust the "1.5" inbalance?


Be very careful with this, and what the ASBA reps are saying.

I think you will find the SMS rules will see the AREA THE SAME. But it is the STL or SPL will be making the difference. The year books states:

"Spinnaker Type: If an assymetrical and symmetrical spinnaker are both carried then the largest of each type must be measured and the measurements submitted. The measurement for the spinnaker pole, SPL and /or bowsprit, STL to be used with each spinnaker type is to be submitted with the spinnaker dimensions. The certificate will be based on the highest rating."

So in short - not only the area is changing but the STL / SPL is changing, so unless you put the same measurements in for the STL / SPL when you put in an ASSY and a SYM kite of the same area in, you will never know what is changing the resulting rating. THIS IS WHAT THE ASBA REP'S ARE NOT TELLING YOU, or electing not to tell you.

SMS is BY FAR THE BEST RATING FOR SPORTS BOATS, it is just how it is currently being used (or manipulated) by ASBA that is the problem

My problem with all of this is the way in which the ASBA are wanting to change the INDEPENDENT rating rule (yes according to the ASBA constitution the handicap system is independent). When YV tell them that the maths is right and that they are wrong, all they do is change the ASBA rules to get around what the independent "umpire" (AKA - YV) who OWN SMS is saying......

The longer this goes on, the more like the bad old days of CBH the ASBA becomes.

And for the record, I own a sports boat that is set up to use BOTH SYM and ASSY kites, and I have sailed and been active in sportsboats for over 15 years, under both the old CBH and the ASBA systems.

I think the way forward is to continue to use SMS, as it is the best system, but allow the independent agency run it and NOT allow the ASBA to change the rules to get around SMS (YV) saying NO.


asba charter is toward performance sport boats if you want to detune/antidevelop your boat to find the rating sweet spot asba is not for you, it is always going to be the case in an overpowered boat that you can reduce power and achieve a better rating outcome under sms irc or any other available system. asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.

#426 Evo

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:16 AM

asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.


it looks like you are saying asba is for bi polar skiffie diehards and everyone else in sailing is a handbrake?

<s> excellent marketing platform that</s> :wacko:

#427 GRUMPY

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:32 AM

That's funny. "Born of skiff mentality". It was born of sooking about TYA CBH.

#428 Me Off

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:54 AM

Personally I have been very disappointed with the ASBA since I bought my boat for the following reasons. I bought my elliott 7 only a year ago, I also race dinghy's on weekends, during the sailing season I paid my full membership at the end of the season and paid a full membership but because of my weekend sailing commitments I didn't have time to race in any sms regattas last season. That's when the problems started I then A couple of weeks later I received a membership renewal form again. I chose not to renew as I felt I was not ready to pay to be a member if it was so financially motivated. Then just as I started buying new sails to get ready for a season racing again in ASBA I hear of the vote to vote out double luff kites. Obviously this affects me and has just run through the idea to me that the ASBA is a very financially motivated association to race in as after seeing a magic 25 win it appears that it has made a lot of people with new modern boats noses out of joint. For the reasons stated above and from hearing about all the other exceptions for other classes whats the point of sms. I was looking forward to racing sms this season as even though my boat was never at the regattas in the past I was generally at the bar when they finished. But after this vote has been passed (why a committee even allowed a vote, maybe the committee was sick of being beaten by cheap boats) you have successfully turned another boat away. A boat that is heavily involved in junior dinghy fleets where members come from. Very sad to say but allowing a vote like this to be not only put forward but also passed it will have left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths and could split the association leading to its collapse. If I was in the commitee at the next meeting I would put forward a motion to forget about all this and put it all in the bin.
enough said

Also as stated my comments don't represent those of the ASBA and is only my feelings on paper.


your choice of boat has nothing to do with the 'vote'

E7s are 'IN'


From what I can read for only two years. So why waste my time with a boat that no one will want in two years time?

#429 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:32 AM

asba charter is toward performance sport boats if you want to detune/antidevelop your boat to find the rating sweet spot asba is not for you, it is always going to be the case in an overpowered boat that you can reduce power and achieve a better rating outcome under sms irc or any other available system. asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.



The Magic has never won a regatta against the light boats?

So you could say it isnt a success, why the ban then?

By the looks of it, VY was approached to do the ban before the vote was even taken! Curious if other class's do this sort of thing without asking the members first?

Even though its a measurement rule now, what your saying is if you have a class boat, or heavy boat it must be kept like that so all the new carbon light boats have all the success? And we would like everyone else, except symetric boats, too still turn up so the fleet looks big thanks, but just cop it sweet your going to get a unjust flogging?

Remember, a boat just won the nationals that is sailing with exemptions and there is less of them measured than symetric boats! Go figure!

2 rules going on here at the moment by look of it!

Dipso, your right on the money!

#430 facthunt

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:07 AM

asba charter is toward performance sport boats if you want to detune/antidevelop your boat to find the rating sweet spot asba is not for you, it is always going to be the case in an overpowered boat that you can reduce power and achieve a better rating outcome under sms irc or any other available system. asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.



The Magic has never won a regatta against the light boats?

So you could say it isnt a success, why the ban then?

By the looks of it, VY was approached to do the ban before the vote was even taken! Curious if other class's do this sort of thing without asking the members first?

Even though its a measurement rule now, what your saying is if you have a class boat, or heavy boat it must be kept like that so all the new carbon light boats have all the success? And we would like everyone else, except symetric boats, too still turn up so the fleet looks big thanks, but just cop it sweet your going to get a unjust flogging?

Remember, a boat just won the nationals that is sailing with exemptions and there is less of them measured than symetric boats! Go figure!

2 rules going on here at the moment by look of it!

Dipso, your right on the money!


yes sounds pretty right, remember before asba you couldnt win a race in a turboed sport boat because yould wind up handicapred to bum fuck idaho now its more of a level field.
are you saying you cant win in an old boat like an m24 or t7 think again.go figure, fuck these boats may even be vinyl thats a high five for team wilderbeast.

#431 facthunt

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:16 AM

asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.


it looks like you are saying asba is for bi polar skiffie diehards and everyone else in sailing is a handbrake?

<s> excellent marketing platform that</s> :wacko:



no, but a fuckwit may read that into it.

#432 Evo

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:27 AM

asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.


it looks like you are saying asba is for bi polar skiffie diehards and everyone else in sailing is a handbrake?

<s> excellent marketing platform that</s> :wacko:



no, but a fuckwit may read that into it.


it was a stupid thing to say facty...elitist...of course you will get rebuff.

of course anyone who doesn't see it as you is a what?

#433 Team WIld

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:33 AM

asba charter is toward performance sport boats if you want to detune/antidevelop your boat to find the rating sweet spot asba is not for you, it is always going to be the case in an overpowered boat that you can reduce power and achieve a better rating outcome under sms irc or any other available system. asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.



The Magic has never won a regatta against the light boats?

So you could say it isnt a success, why the ban then?

By the looks of it, VY was approached to do the ban before the vote was even taken! Curious if other class's do this sort of thing without asking the members first?

Even though its a measurement rule now, what your saying is if you have a class boat, or heavy boat it must be kept like that so all the new carbon light boats have all the success? And we would like everyone else, except symetric boats, too still turn up so the fleet looks big thanks, but just cop it sweet your going to get a unjust flogging?

Remember, a boat just won the nationals that is sailing with exemptions and there is less of them measured than symetric boats! Go figure!

2 rules going on here at the moment by look of it!

Dipso, your right on the money!


yes sounds pretty right, remember before asba you couldnt win a race in a turboed sport boat because yould wind up handicapred to bum fuck idaho now its more of a level field.
are you saying you cant win in an old boat like an m24 or t7 think again.go figure, fuck these boats may even be vinyl thats a high five for team wilderbeast.


sports 8 vinyl, xx epoxy. Discussed with prominent naval architect vinyl is fine for either, however due to the light laminates of the XX we decided to use epoxy for a bit more longevity (resin matrix) the vinyl boats are a heavier eglass layup and will weigh 46 - 50 kg more than the carbon xx. So not sure if 570 kgs is still considered light but if so we will ive with that!

#434 facthunt

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:58 AM

asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.


it looks like you are saying asba is for bi polar skiffie diehards and everyone else in sailing is a handbrake?

<s> excellent marketing platform that</s> :wacko:



no, but a fuckwit may read that into it.


it was a stupid thing to say facty...elitist...of course you will get rebuff.

of course anyone who doesn't see it as you is a what?


you have removed context surounding that statement for what?, that was a stupid thing to do ..... of coure you will get rebuff.

#435 Sandgroper Yachting

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:12 PM

asba charter is toward performance sport boats if you want to detune/antidevelop your boat to find the rating sweet spot asba is not for you, it is always going to be the case in an overpowered boat that you can reduce power and achieve a better rating outcome under sms irc or any other available system. asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.



The Magic has never won a regatta against the light boats?

So you could say it isnt a success, why the ban then?

By the looks of it, VY was approached to do the ban before the vote was even taken! Curious if other class's do this sort of thing without asking the members first?

Even though its a measurement rule now, what your saying is if you have a class boat, or heavy boat it must be kept like that so all the new carbon light boats have all the success? And we would like everyone else, except symetric boats, too still turn up so the fleet looks big thanks, but just cop it sweet your going to get a unjust flogging?

Remember, a boat just won the nationals that is sailing with exemptions and there is less of them measured than symetric boats! Go figure!

2 rules going on here at the moment by look of it!

Dipso, your right on the money!


yes sounds pretty right, remember before asba you couldnt win a race in a turboed sport boat because yould wind up handicapred to bum fuck idaho now its more of a level field.
are you saying you cant win in an old boat like an m24 or t7 think again.go figure, fuck these boats may even be vinyl thats a high five for team wilderbeast.


sports 8 vinyl, xx epoxy. Discussed with prominent naval architect vinyl is fine for either, however due to the light laminates of the XX we decided to use epoxy for a bit more longevity (resin matrix) the vinyl boats are a heavier eglass layup and will weigh 46 - 50 kg more than the carbon xx. So not sure if 570 kgs is still considered light but if so we will ive with that!

So why are the Sports 8's in WA weighing in at over 900kg?

#436 Team WIld

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:18 PM

asba charter is toward performance sport boats if you want to detune/antidevelop your boat to find the rating sweet spot asba is not for you, it is always going to be the case in an overpowered boat that you can reduce power and achieve a better rating outcome under sms irc or any other available system. asba was born of skiff mentality and is proceeding through difficulties with its original integrity, there are plenty of other options available to handbrake sailors,not so for the sport boat diehard.



The Magic has never won a regatta against the light boats?

So you could say it isnt a success, why the ban then?

By the looks of it, VY was approached to do the ban before the vote was even taken! Curious if other class's do this sort of thing without asking the members first?

Even though its a measurement rule now, what your saying is if you have a class boat, or heavy boat it must be kept like that so all the new carbon light boats have all the success? And we would like everyone else, except symetric boats, too still turn up so the fleet looks big thanks, but just cop it sweet your going to get a unjust flogging?

Remember, a boat just won the nationals that is sailing with exemptions and there is less of them measured than symetric boats! Go figure!

2 rules going on here at the moment by look of it!

Dipso, your right on the money!


yes sounds pretty right, remember before asba you couldnt win a race in a turboed sport boat because yould wind up handicapred to bum fuck idaho now its more of a level field.
are you saying you cant win in an old boat like an m24 or t7 think again.go figure, fuck these boats may even be vinyl thats a high five for team wilderbeast.


sports 8 vinyl, xx epoxy. Discussed with prominent naval architect vinyl is fine for either, however due to the light laminates of the XX we decided to use epoxy for a bit more longevity (resin matrix) the vinyl boats are a heavier eglass layup and will weigh 46 - 50 kg more than the carbon xx. So not sure if 570 kgs is still considered light but if so we will ive with that!

So why are the Sports 8's in WA weighing in at over 900kg?


Different laminate schedule mate, those things should be bullet proof with the amount of laminate and resin is in them. The schedule I was supplied (original production laminate) didnt have any foam, not sure if the ended up adding foam but it sounds like they didnt? maybe you can shed some light on this for me? The sports 8 of today thanks thanks to development by PIP is a very different boat. Basically we are using his carbon laminate schedule and reverse engineered to the same structural outcomes in eglass and vinyl. The sports 8 should now be pretty competative and as soon as we pop out one I will confirm all weights as they rarely come out as light as you plan! That said as we resin infuse we can be quite accurate with estimated weight. We will also use carbon reinforcing.

#437 Bill E Goat

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:49 PM

Different laminate schedule mate, those things should be bullet proof with the amount of laminate and resin is in them. The schedule I was supplied (original production laminate) didnt have any foam, not sure if the ended up adding foam but it sounds like they didnt? maybe you can shed some light on this for me? The sports 8 of today thanks thanks to development by PIP is a very different boat. Basically we are using his carbon laminate schedule and reverse engineered to the same structural outcomes in eglass and vinyl. The sports 8 should now be pretty competative and as soon as we pop out one I will confirm all weights as they rarely come out as light as you plan! That said as we resin infuse we can be quite accurate with estimated weight. We will also use carbon reinforcing.


WTF no foam in the layup schedule !!!!

#438 Sandgroper Yachting

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:01 PM

Different laminate schedule mate, those things should be bullet proof with the amount of laminate and resin is in them. The schedule I was supplied (original production laminate) didnt have any foam, not sure if the ended up adding foam but it sounds like they didnt? maybe you can shed some light on this for me? The sports 8 of today thanks thanks to development by PIP is a very different boat. Basically we are using his carbon laminate schedule and reverse engineered to the same structural outcomes in eglass and vinyl. The sports 8 should now be pretty competative and as soon as we pop out one I will confirm all weights as they rarely come out as light as you plan! That said as we resin infuse we can be quite accurate with estimated weight. We will also use carbon reinforcing.


WTF no foam in the layup schedule !!!!


From what ive seen of them they look similar in construction to your average production power boat.
I wouldnt be surprised if a chopper gun was involved

#439 Team WIld

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

Different laminate schedule mate, those things should be bullet proof with the amount of laminate and resin is in them. The schedule I was supplied (original production laminate) didnt have any foam, not sure if the ended up adding foam but it sounds like they didnt? maybe you can shed some light on this for me? The sports 8 of today thanks thanks to development by PIP is a very different boat. Basically we are using his carbon laminate schedule and reverse engineered to the same structural outcomes in eglass and vinyl. The sports 8 should now be pretty competative and as soon as we pop out one I will confirm all weights as they rarely come out as light as you plan! That said as we resin infuse we can be quite accurate with estimated weight. We will also use carbon reinforcing.


WTF no foam in the layup schedule !!!!



Thats right not in the schedule I was given!!! This may explain why so heavy? Also swung a 200 kg bulb with canting gear so there is probably 120 kgs extra there at a guess. Would love to know if someone with a prod boat can confirm if there was foam or not. We are NOT using this schedule (obviously). It isnt uncommon to produce a boat without foam to keep costs down, look at the new Bavaria sportsboat!!! Its a pretty easy calc, foam $40 ish M2 E glass $2.50 Pkg you can do a 16 kg lay up for the same price as foam!! Off the top of myhead it was about 5 kg layup so much cheaper to produce than a foam boat. If you want specifics Pm me and i am happy to give you the old lay up schedule!

#440 Bill E Goat

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:16 PM

Solid lay-up ie no foam core = 100% pig

#441 Team WIld

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:19 PM

Different laminate schedule mate, those things should be bullet proof with the amount of laminate and resin is in them. The schedule I was supplied (original production laminate) didnt have any foam, not sure if the ended up adding foam but it sounds like they didnt? maybe you can shed some light on this for me? The sports 8 of today thanks thanks to development by PIP is a very different boat. Basically we are using his carbon laminate schedule and reverse engineered to the same structural outcomes in eglass and vinyl. The sports 8 should now be pretty competative and as soon as we pop out one I will confirm all weights as they rarely come out as light as you plan! That said as we resin infuse we can be quite accurate with estimated weight. We will also use carbon reinforcing.


WTF no foam in the layup schedule !!!!


From what ive seen of them they look similar in construction to your average production power boat.
I wouldnt be surprised if a chopper gun was involved


to be up front I have no idea what or how the prod boats were built. The laminate schedule was a combination of CSM, DB, CU and hull shell lay up was supposed to be 155 Kgs, cant remember if this was cloth only, but I think it was cloth and resin, then you add the deck stainless keel case and all the canting gear which I think would be pretty heavy, then keel with 200 kg bulb rudder etc so 8-900 kg doesnt suprise me. The current layup for the sports 8 is far lighter and will be as strong as the xx carbon boat.

#442 Team WIld

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:21 PM

Solid lay-up ie no foam core = 100% pig



YUP! I think there is another lay up that has T80 in it, but doesnt really matter as not being used. I think if we end upo with an e glass boat under 600 Kgs it would be good and it looks like iot will be below that particurarly with the improved resin;reinforcement ratio from infusion. Did two rudders last week, one hand wet out (lean as we could get it) and an infused wet out....infused 200 grams lighter.

#443 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:42 AM

minus fin, bulb, rudder, rig & cat 6 safeties the hull will be coming out sub-200kg correct ? + 38 for the wings

the above actually calcs the t-8 Z down to about 180kg as a ballpark comparison, shaw650.com says 135 for the smaller boat

as talking lam. weights etc best to talk hull/deck weight in isolation & not booms outboards, v sheets

#444 Team WIld

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:11 AM

minus fin, bulb, rudder, rig & cat 6 safeties the hull will be coming out sub-200kg correct ? + 38 for the wings

the above actually calcs the t-8 Z down to about 180kg as a ballpark comparison, shaw650.com says 135 for the smaller boat

as talking lam. weights etc best to talk hull/deck weight in isolation & not booms outboards, v sheets



#445 Team WIld

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:16 AM

Correct. Cloth weight and resin will be below 200 kgs. Secondary laminates included. Wings will be over 40 kgs due to more laminate in eglass required. Without giving too much away we expect the eglass boat to be about 50 kgs heavier. Will likely use carbon uni for reinforcement

#446 Bill E Goat

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:25 AM

I believe there is a proposal to ban boats that don't have a core from the ASBA

#447 Team WIld

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:14 AM

I believe there is a proposal to ban boats that don't have a core from the ASBA


That would be good for the sports 8's this way the slugger oned are gone, I'd vote for that!!!!

#448 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:06 AM

I believe there is a proposal to ban boats that don't have a core from the ASBA



I thought it was boats without soul!

#449 Team WIld

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:13 AM

I believe there is a proposal to ban boats that don't have a core from the ASBA



I thought it was boats without soul!



Better put in the holywater bottle

#450 Me Off

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:07 PM

Do the sports 8's win races? Oh who cares ban them as well. Why not. Maybe we should just start a list of what boats are going to be banned next in order from first to last. That way we can all be ready when they bring in another crazy change to the rules. M

#451 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 03:06 AM

not any longer


unless Sorro gets that kiss upgrade to his keel on Conquistador.

of course the prototype Vivace will again assume the 'fastest sportsboat' mantle but it precedes the 'sports 8' naming & definition


aside from that no boats tween 6 & 8.5 mtrs have been banned, what has been is IOR spinnaker systems have and bloopers unless you measure them as a heady i.e. rating thru the roof

#452 Barman

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 12:06 PM

not any longer


unless Sorro gets that kiss upgrade to his keel on Conquistador.

of course the prototype Vivace will again assume the 'fastest sportsboat' mantle but it precedes the 'sports 8' naming & definition


aside from that no boats tween 6 & 8.5 mtrs have been banned, what has been is IOR spinnaker systems that can in the right conditions mix it with the assy boats and piss off all the big money spenders! That's what this is all about!



#453 alyeska

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

not any longer


unless Sorro gets that kiss upgrade to his keel on Conquistador.

of course the prototype Vivace will again assume the 'fastest sportsboat' mantle but it precedes the 'sports 8' naming & definition


aside from that no boats tween 6 & 8.5 mtrs have been banned, what has been is IOR spinnaker systems that can in the right conditions mix it with the assy boats and piss off all the big money spenders! That's what this is all about!



I voted for this rule change because I didnt want to see the class taking a backward step with more boats choosing to use sym chutes for a rating gain, you might have some T7s & M24s etc doing this while others stayed with assys it would turn into a circus.


By making this change only 1 boat is affected and they can still race SMS by going back to the original configuration of extendable bow pole & assy chute, for little if any cost.

This change would never have happened if the E7's were affected as nobody wants to lose boats from the fleet, all this crap about the" big money spenders" calling for this is absolute bullshit I'm far from in that catergory but I can see the sense in this rule change.


I choose to race under SMS as I like the idea of a rule that allows a bit of development eg canting keels, rotating wing masts etc, but not going backwards to sym chutes.

#454 Barman

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 08:29 PM

not any longer


unless Sorro gets that kiss upgrade to his keel on Conquistador.

of course the prototype Vivace will again assume the 'fastest sportsboat' mantle but it precedes the 'sports 8' naming & definition


aside from that no boats tween 6 & 8.5 mtrs have been banned, what has been is IOR spinnaker systems that can in the right conditions mix it with the assy boats and piss off all the big money spenders! That's what this is all about!



I voted for this rule change because I didnt want to see the class taking a backward step with more boats choosing to use sym chutes for a rating gain, you might have some T7s & M24s etc doing this while others stayed with assys it would turn into a circus.


By making this change only 1 boat is affected and they can still race SMS by going back to the original configuration of extendable bow pole & assy chute, for little if any cost.

This change would never have happened if the E7's were affected as nobody wants to lose boats from the fleet, all this crap about the" big money spenders" calling for this is absolute bullshit I'm far from in that catergory but I can see the sense in this rule change.


I choose to race under SMS as I like the idea of a rule that allows a bit of development eg canting keels, rotating wing masts etc, but not going backwards to sym chutes.

But that one boat has not won anything? Not when there has been light boats involved!

#455 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 09:51 PM

not any longer


unless Sorro gets that kiss upgrade to his keel on Conquistador.

of course the prototype Vivace will again assume the 'fastest sportsboat' mantle but it precedes the 'sports 8' naming & definition


aside from that no boats tween 6 & 8.5 mtrs have been banned, what has been is IOR spinnaker systems that can in the right conditions mix it with the assy boats and piss off all the big money spenders! That's what this is all about!



I voted for this rule change because I didnt want to see the class taking a backward step with more boats choosing to use sym chutes for a rating gain, you might have some T7s & M24s etc doing this while others stayed with assys it would turn into a circus.


By making this change only 1 boat is affected and they can still race SMS by going back to the original configuration of extendable bow pole & assy chute, for little if any cost.

This change would never have happened if the E7's were affected as nobody wants to lose boats from the fleet, all this crap about the" big money spenders" calling for this is absolute bullshit I'm far from in that catergory but I can see the sense in this rule change.


I choose to race under SMS as I like the idea of a rule that allows a bit of development eg canting keels, rotating wing masts etc, but not going backwards to sym chutes.


well you have just shown, that you will vote them out as well if they have an advantage! So you will be voting the light boats and melges out now i hope! Since you want the boats getting an unfair rating advantage voted out?

I bet not!

Hypocrite!

#456 furcoat

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:07 AM

not any longer


unless Sorro gets that kiss upgrade to his keel on Conquistador.

of course the prototype Vivace will again assume the 'fastest sportsboat' mantle but it precedes the 'sports 8' naming & definition


aside from that no boats tween 6 & 8.5 mtrs have been banned, what has been is IOR spinnaker systems that can in the right conditions mix it with the assy boats and piss off all the big money spenders! That's what this is all about!



I voted for this rule change because I didnt want to see the class taking a backward step with more boats choosing to use sym chutes for a rating gain, you might have some T7s & M24s etc doing this while others stayed with assys it would turn into a circus.


By making this change only 1 boat is affected and they can still race SMS by going back to the original configuration of extendable bow pole & assy chute, for little if any cost.

This change would never have happened if the E7's were affected as nobody wants to lose boats from the fleet, all this crap about the" big money spenders" calling for this is absolute bullshit I'm far from in that catergory but I can see the sense in this rule change.


I choose to race under SMS as I like the idea of a rule that allows a bit of development eg canting keels, rotating wing masts etc, but not going backwards to sym chutes.


well you have just shown, that you will vote them out as well if they have an advantage! So you will be voting the light boats and melges out now i hope! Since you want the boats getting an unfair rating advantage voted out?

I bet not!

Hypocrite!



Well done - turned 1+1 into 5 again ...

#457 Humungus

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 02:57 AM

Whilst TS has an extreme viewpoint it is a driven response to another extreme viewpoint and might by defined as sarcasm. As a person who owns two assymetric boats I find the current diection of ASBA disappointing and totally unecessary. But then again I never had to race that symetric Magic.
Not that I'm knowledgable in the area, I would be surprised if ASBA is all about speed as previously mentioned but more about boats with a good power to weight ratio(some will be faster than others). On that basis I reckon there is a place for the modified Magic as it is still a sportboat even if not recognised by ABSA. To take it a bit further I believe smaller boats such as the 550 and VX One are also sportsboats and should be welcomed by ASBA as an affordable entry point to the association.
There are more new boats hitting the water now than I can remember which is great, if I was involved in the association(and may well be in the future depending)I would be promoting the group to be as inclusive as possible, there is room for everyone that enjoy powered up sailing.

#458 Barman

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:18 AM

not any longer


unless Sorro gets that kiss upgrade to his keel on Conquistador.

of course the prototype Vivace will again assume the 'fastest sportsboat' mantle but it precedes the 'sports 8' naming & definition


aside from that no boats tween 6 & 8.5 mtrs have been banned, what has been is IOR spinnaker systems that can in the right conditions mix it with the assy boats and piss off all the big money spenders! That's what this is all about!



I voted for this rule change because I didnt want to see the class taking a backward step with more boats choosing to use sym chutes for a rating gain, you might have some T7s & M24s etc doing this while others stayed with assys it would turn into a circus.


By making this change only 1 boat is affected and they can still race SMS by going back to the original configuration of extendable bow pole & assy chute, for little if any cost.

This change would never have happened if the E7's were affected as nobody wants to lose boats from the fleet, all this crap about the" big money spenders" calling for this is absolute bullshit I'm far from in that catergory but I can see the sense in this rule change.


I choose to race under SMS as I like the idea of a rule that allows a bit of development eg canting keels, rotating wing masts etc, but not going backwards to sym chutes.


well you have just shown, that you will vote them out as well if they have an advantage! So you will be voting the light boats and melges out now i hope! Since you want the boats getting an unfair rating advantage voted out?

I bet not!

Hypocrite!



Well done - turned 1+1 into 5 again ...

And get a f##king spell check goggles!

#459 Obsessed

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 06:30 AM

It's not just one boat there are others as well who are measured for SMS and run symmetric but don't have class rules to gain an exemption

They haven't slowed down their boat so how do they fair?

#460 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 08:17 AM

Whilst TS has an extreme viewpoint it is a driven response to another extreme viewpoint and might by defined as sarcasm. As a person who owns two assymetric boats I find the current diection of ASBA disappointing and totally unecessary. But then again I never had to race that symetric Magic.
Not that I'm knowledgable in the area, I would be surprised if ASBA is all about speed as previously mentioned but more about boats with a good power to weight ratio(some will be faster than others). On that basis I reckon there is a place for the modified Magic as it is still a sportboat even if not recognised by ABSA. To take it a bit further I believe smaller boats such as the 550 and VX One are also sportsboats and should be welcomed by ASBA as an affordable entry point to the association.
There are more new boats hitting the water now than I can remember which is great, if I was involved in the association(and may well be in the future depending)I would be promoting the group to be as inclusive as possible, there is room for everyone that enjoy powered up sailing.

"about boats with a good power to weight ratio"


OK, above is SA/D

at some point you can reduce the power(SA) and increase the weight(D) and then you'll cross over the line to bad or mediocre "power to weight ratio"
like a Quarter Tonner. The makij rates like a 21 footer yet it's 25' with the handbrake ON, reduced SA/D

and that is where you sail close to breaking the spirit of the SMS rule ( in the preamble/Yearbook )

also I suspect that's when the association may move to protect its main asset , the owners boats staying within the spirit and able to be competitive
It's not a stretch of the imagination that they must be promotable as well, and appear 'sporty'
____________________


2nd point I agree, there is plenty of logic in a entry level and this is in fact where the present lot would benefit from a ?feeder? group,
(at the moment arguably a trickle fr/ 50hs, Sharpies, TYs and the like, even downsizers from 'bellies)


as ASBA is a group representing its boats owners of those owners of smaller boats (cat7-ish) need to get active/involved and represent a decent percentage of the lobby

basically this must come thru weight of numbers, hypothetically imagine if all the current blokes bought 18 to 21 footers for example


arguable that AUS will follow the northern Hem lead to affordable and easy to own/crew boats, if this trend becomes apparent the the group that caters for that will prevail

#461 Team WIld

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:43 AM

Whilst TS has an extreme viewpoint it is a driven response to another extreme viewpoint and might by defined as sarcasm. As a person who owns two assymetric boats I find the current diection of ASBA disappointing and totally unecessary. But then again I never had to race that symetric Magic.
Not that I'm knowledgable in the area, I would be surprised if ASBA is all about speed as previously mentioned but more about boats with a good power to weight ratio(some will be faster than others). On that basis I reckon there is a place for the modified Magic as it is still a sportboat even if not recognised by ABSA. To take it a bit further I believe smaller boats such as the 550 and VX One are also sportsboats and should be welcomed by ASBA as an affordable entry point to the association.
There are more new boats hitting the water now than I can remember which is great, if I was involved in the association(and may well be in the future depending)I would be promoting the group to be as inclusive as possible, there is room for everyone that enjoy powered up sailing.

"about boats with a good power to weight ratio"


OK, above is SA/D

at some point you can reduce the power(SA) and increase the weight(D) and then you'll cross over the line to bad or mediocre "power to weight ratio"
like a Quarter Tonner. The makij rates like a 21 footer yet it's 25' with the handbrake ON, reduced SA/D

and that is where you sail close to breaking the spirit of the SMS rule ( in the preamble/Yearbook )

also I suspect that's when the association may move to protect its main asset , the owners boats staying within the spirit and able to be competitive
It's not a stretch of the imagination that they must be promotable as well, and appear 'sporty'
____________________


2nd point I agree, there is plenty of logic in a entry level and this is in fact where the present lot would benefit from a ?feeder? group,
(at the moment arguably a trickle fr/ 50hs, Sharpies, TYs and the like, even downsizers from 'bellies)


as ASBA is a group representing its boats owners of those owners of smaller boats (cat7-ish) need to get active/involved and represent a decent percentage of the lobby

basically this must come thru weight of numbers, hypothetically imagine if all the current blokes bought 18 to 21 footers for example


arguable that AUS will follow the northern Hem lead to affordable and easy to own/crew boats, if this trend becomes apparent the the group that caters for that will prevail


Have yopu seen what the pommy side of the northern hemisphere calls a sports boat!!!!! The new bavaria for example!!!! Geeze lets hope the Southern Hemisphere doesnt do this.

#462 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 12:52 PM

they did

then it was ruled out,

in NZ (i.e. Sthn Hemis.) it was always 'out'

#463 Windward Mark

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:03 AM

[
2nd point I agree, there is plenty of logic in a entry level and this is in fact where the present lot would benefit from a ?feeder? group,
(at the moment arguably a trickle fr/ 50hs, Sharpies, TYs and the like, even downsizers from 'bellies)


Are you suggesting that sailors from high performance dinghy classes and keelboats need a entry level boat due to cost or because they need a de-tuned boat to get around the course??

#464 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 11:12 AM

no, you are suggesting that apparently

i pointed out (i.e. at the moment ..) where the current players are emerging from

#465 Windward Mark

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:54 PM

no, you are suggesting that apparently

i pointed out (i.e. at the moment ..) where the current players are emerging from


I'm not suggesting anything, I asked a question. Are you going to answer it or dance around with semantics? Re-read what you wrote, and read it in a way that alot of people would read it.

Yes, you pointed out where some new comers may come from, and go onto suggest that "the present lot would benefit from a feeder group" ie 5oh's, sharpies, ty.........

I'll ask again, why would they benefit? Because of cost or ability????

#466 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:18 AM

No

I did not point out where some new owners MAY come from

I pointed out where present SBers HAVE come from ie 5oh's, sharpies, ty.........

This CURRENT fleet may benefit from a 'entry level' or smaller cat-7 -ish fleet, then again it may not, as I believe the smaller boats would be as/more desirable as they are certainly not detuned or poverty option '2nd best'. Your options to me as to what I might be insinuating.
You know that from your 5oh sailing as I know from OTB classes

the 'entry level' or feeder is a future idea, even if badly named or defined by myself (back to humungus' post BELOW and 2nded by me)

crossed wires on a 'tense' issue M

imo the 5.5 >> 6mtr could arguably turn out a growth area, someone will step in & cater for it, maybe ASBA as it's done with with Quattro Sprint 5.5, or maybe another group,

it they turn out lighter than FDs, and shorter than sharpies maybe it will be the 'off the beach' infrastructure, or TY, who knows ?

this is the point ( in isolation) that I am agreeing with & not intending to 'upset' you

..... To take it a bit further I believe smaller boats such as the 550 and VX One are also sportsboats and should be welcomed by ASBA as an affordable entry point to the association.
There are more new boats hitting the water now than I can remember which is great .... there is room for everyone that enjoy powered up sailing.



#467 Windward Mark

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:15 AM

No

I did not point out where some new owners MAY come from

I pointed out where present SBers HAVE come from ie 5oh's, sharpies, ty.........

This CURRENT fleet may benefit from a 'entry level' or smaller cat-7 -ish fleet, then again it may not, as I believe the smaller boats would be as/more desirable as they are certainly not detuned or poverty option '2nd best'. Your options to me as to what I might be insinuating.
You know that from your 5oh sailing as I know from OTB classes

the 'entry level' or feeder is a future idea, even if badly named or defined by myself (back to humungus' post BELOW and 2nded by me)

crossed wires on a 'tense' issue M

imo the 5.5 >> 6mtr could arguably turn out a growth area, someone will step in & cater for it, maybe ASBA as it's done with with Quattro Sprint 5.5, or maybe another group,

it they turn out lighter than FDs, and shorter than sharpies maybe it will be the 'off the beach' infrastructure, or TY, who knows ?

this is the point ( in isolation) that I am agreeing with & not intending to 'upset' you

..... To take it a bit further I believe smaller boats such as the 550 and VX One are also sportsboats and should be welcomed by ASBA as an affordable entry point to the association.
There are more new boats hitting the water now than I can remember which is great .... there is room for everyone that enjoy powered up sailing.


Mate, you couldn't upset me if you tried. I simply questioned your post and you have now answered (tks). If it were intended as I read it, well I would have had bit of a dig at the some of the leading SB's sailors past efforts in classes like Tasars, Sharpies and 5ohs......... But I will leave it at that!!

I'll go back to working out how I can fund a home build Leech 650..............

#468 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:39 AM

the Leech is the great unknown as we speak

seems (???) way easier to build, major plus

but can it run with a Shaw e.g. Peow Peow ? I'm struggling to envisage that but you never know ?

#469 Windward Mark

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:06 AM

I think it needs a symmetric though.

#470 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:18 AM

I dunno

the only Class sportsboat racing ( every Sat at Drummoyne, timber homebuilds) in your neck of the woods just use a wisky pole, you could cut your Tasar one in half and stub it longer,,,, for less than a can of rum at the cyca

always happy to pass on cost cutting tips m8, theres more

#471 Windward Mark

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:23 AM

To be fair, it's the only class "sportsboat" racing anywhere....... TS, the original sportsboat!!!!

How does SMS rate poled out jibs?? You might be onto something, forget syms, just pole out the jib!!!

#472 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:31 AM

m8 i'm all over it

and Dry storage ( nec. for highly strung l/w racers) is thousand and thousands $$$ less than all the other alternatives

another cost cutting GS tip ( theres more)

you know they plane like buggery, and Fail the old TY stabilities so are obviously a true sportsboat

class racing every weekend, unprecedented



#473 Turkey Slapper

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:05 PM

How does SMS rate poled out jibs?? You might be onto something, forget syms, just pole out the jib!!!


We ould find out soon!

#474 Feral

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:58 PM


How does SMS rate poled out jibs?? You might be onto something, forget syms, just pole out the jib!!!


We ould find out soon!

Farking jibs. Ban them. :unsure: