1778 replies to this topic

[Nessun Dorma]

Well, we started, if a detailed mockup made of plywood and balsa counts ...

Earlier this week I was at Pacific Seacraft to finalize some details on CATARI and see the aft cockpit mock up they'd built based on Bob's latest drawings. We had about 5 of us sitting and walking through the cockpit for almost 6 hours. We actually ate lunch in it which was pretty cool. We had a little guy about my wife's height (5'5"), me, Thumper at 6'2" (the yard manager and yes that's his name), Beefy Victor, Raul the carpenter and Steve Brodie, the owner. We looked over the house from the wheel, sat 5 for a meal at a mock aft cockpit table, and walked in and out of the aft cabin with steps and cockpit soles of various depths. We were able to sit on watch under the hood and look at and test the aft decks and side decks and see how the winch placement felt. The coffee cans are the winches, although the 72s will obvious be larger in real life.

The PSC guys had done, I think, a great job of building a wooden model that was not just accurate but had some gracious details, like the shot below with the curved coaming. The day resulted in some suggested changes that Bob is mulling over. Nothing big, just small things that as you sit in the mock up you see better and want to change. One significant change is adding another 12" of aft deck space.

Bob has been telling me for almost a year to stop editing drawings and wait to see it in mock up. So I will say "he told me so" for him so he doesn't have to.

Based on how my photos turned out I brought the wrong lens and need some practice at this. But we'll try to get better with time. It was hard to get photos with enough angle to show details -- unless I went up on the overhead catwalks and shot from above. Next time I will be better equipped. PSC has also agreed to put in a webcam system and there will be still shots from that I can share (with PSC prior approval). Steve Brodie is shown seated "on watch" in the aft house overhang and watch-cubby (what his crew calls it), with his brand new 'summer buzz' haircut that he gets with his boys and that makes him look like a 20 year old. He really is a grown man in his 40s, honest.

The wheel in most of these is smaller than the 36" wheel spec'd, although later in the afternoon they replaced it with the larger one. I asked to try a 42" wheel and they accommodated me, but the 36 bob drew was just perfect. Go figure.

Note that the pilot house does not overhang on the sides on the real boat/ drawings, they just had not trimmed those side boards off yet -- where the clamps are. We extended the overhang a few inches aft and the clamps are holding the latest extension on.

All in all a great day for me and I think PSC did a wonderful job. The crew there is very proud and looks forward to the work.

I mentioned it in my Spike thread but I want everyone to know again that PSC and the guys there are making a generous gift this year in support of the Spike Memorial Fund. They're great guy so thank them if you can.

Attached Files

•  Aft cockpit from above.JPG   74.18K   362 downloads
•  Aft cockpit above 2.JPG   77.76K   351 downloads
•  Aft cockpit above 3.JPG   75.61K   277 downloads
•  aft helm and seat.JPG   69.93K   242 downloads
•  aft helm seat and wheel.JPG   71.46K   253 downloads
•  coaming detail.JPG   65.45K   273 downloads
•  helm seat.JPG   76.58K   244 downloads
•  house overhang an wacth-cubby.JPG   59.87K   220 downloads
•  House overhang-watch cubby (1).JPG   56.56K   258 downloads
•  Steve on watch (1).JPG   61.96K   267 downloads

[WHL]

and the excitement begins in earnest !!! A nice start.

[Innocent Bystander]

Very exciting. Looks like a proper, businesslike and comfortable seagoing cockpit. It appears this "Bob" knows what he is doing.

How did you find an outboard steering position? It looks like the corners of the "aft, aft cockpit" close it off somewhat.

[Joli]

I love it! Coffee grinders!

It's gonna be a fun year for you. :-)

[memopad]

Is there a structural reason why the helms seeting and cockpit seating have that little "wall" pinched between them?

[Nessun Dorma]

The outboard steering is perfect actually -- you can't really see the angles with the shots but the seats are angled and set back and you can reach the wheel and brace easily for at least 6 positions. Remember we're looking at a 28" wheel in that photo as well. The corners look larger than they are.

Very exciting. Looks like a proper, businesslike and comfortable seagoing cockpit. It appears this "Bob" knows what he is doing.

How did you find an outboard steering position? It looks like the corners of the "aft, aft cockpit" close it off somewhat.

[Nessun Dorma]

There will be wire runs and things in there but no structure. They look larger on the photos when they are. Big Victor has big legs and he easily passes by. They are mostly to dilineate the business end from the rest. As in "stay out of here please." Mostly its a look I like as it reminds me of my dad's boat.

Is there a structural reason why the helms seeting and cockpit seating have that little "wall" pinched between them?

[Ajax]

WOW! The helm area looks like a lounge as well as a helm station. Going to be a sexy boat!

[Innocent Bystander]

The outboard steering is perfect actually -- you can't really see the angles with the shots but the seats are angled and set back and you can reach the wheel and brace easily for at least 6 positions. Remember we're looking at a 28" wheel in that photo as well. The corners look larger than they are.

Very exciting. Looks like a proper, businesslike and comfortable seagoing cockpit. It appears this "Bob" knows what he is doing.

How did you find an outboard steering position? It looks like the corners of the "aft, aft cockpit" close it off somewhat.

Thanks. It's one hell of a sexy look.

[Greever]

Thanks for sharing ND, this is going to be a fun build to follow!

[Gatekeeper]

I have the same winches...

[kdh]

Mostly its a look I like as it reminds me of my dad's boat.

Cool. You're the dad now, and your dad a proud one, I'm sure. Enjoy the build. A shitload of fun.

[Soñadora]

fan-freakin'-tastic!

[Bob Perry]

A lot of hours have gone into designing and redesigning that cockpit. It makes me happy to see the shapes actually working and the design objectives met. So far.
I was no aware that Folgers made winches.

What strikes me when I look at those pics is what a nice job they have done on the mock up.

[Nessun Dorma]

I agree Bob -- the three guys who did the work on the mock up were very proud of what they'd done, and were making on the spot changes and bending wood into curves and stuff. They didn't want to just build a box that showed rough shapes, they wanted to build a pretty boat cockpit. I'll pass your compliments on to the PSC guys Bob, that will mean a lot coming from you.

A lot of hours have gone into designing and redesigning that cockpit. It makes me happy to see the shapes actually working and the design objectives met. So far.
I was no aware that Folgers made winches.

What strikes me when I look at those pics is what a nice job they have done on the mock up.

[Salazar]

I was no aware that Folgers made winches.

Oh yes, they have been making "Coffee Grinders" for quite a while, and using advanced lightweight plastics, much like that big black Harken in your office...

How well they work is another issue.

[bljones]

It's nice to know they're not wasting money on the shop coffee budget.

I look at that mock-up and think you just need to fillet the joints, lay on some cloth, and glass it up.

[Soñadora]

It's nice to know they're not wasting money on the shop coffee budget.

I look at that mock-up and think you just need to fillet the joints, lay on some cloth, and glass it up.

complete with super, extra large, 2 story condo-saloon just forward of the PH (mockup for engine room I suppose)

[Jose Carumba]

Very nice mockup. That is going to be one sweet boat.

As accurate and detailed as drawings and 3D models may be it nearly always helps to build a full size mockup. You discover things to tweak to make the boat perfect.

[Nessun Dorma]

Funny you say that -- yeah, it is the engine room mock up box, and it basically is up on a platform. The center cockpit mockup will be built next and then placed on top of the ER mockup. Basically they are building the boat in pieces.

It's nice to know they're not wasting money on the shop coffee budget.

I look at that mock-up and think you just need to fillet the joints, lay on some cloth, and glass it up.

complete with super, extra large, 2 story condo-saloon just forward of the PH (mockup for engine room I suppose)

[Soñadora]

Very nice mockup. That is going to be one sweet boat.

As accurate and detailed as drawings and 3D models may be it nearly always helps to build a full size mockup. You discover things to tweak to make the boat perfect.

yeah, I suppose if you wanted to fork out the dough for a virtual reality holodeck sort of thing you could get close. But nothing beats the real thing.

At least, that's what she said.

[us7070]

when you say you are adding 12" to the aft deck, does that mean you are adding 12" to the LOA?

the one concern i always had when looking at the diagrams was whether the cockpit was big enough - i think the mock up shows that it will work fine, although if it were my boat, i'd probably go slightly bigger.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

ND,

This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature.

I'm sure you've tested this, but get Thumper to lay down on the cockpit seat and insure one can sleep there. My absolute favorite place to sleep during a passage is on the lee-side cockpit seat. You feel, hear and sense everything even when you're not on watch and the crew knows you're right there if they need you. Your cockpit is so luxo-amazing that there'd be plenty of room for a sleeping skipper if the seat is long enough. (I even put a seat-belt on Saga so I wouldn't get rolled off the seat in a round-down.)

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.

Finally, while we all love to sail from the rail, and far be it from me to discourage it, most cruising is on autopilot and I found that sitting on he windward rail amidships with the rest of the crew while steering with the autopilot remote control satisfied my desire to "sail" from the rail without needing to build a cockpit and wheel that let me get that far outboard. The wheel really does take a lot of space, which you undoubtedly found when you tried the "big" wheel in your mock up and it's so rarely used that I've reversed my earlier opinion that one should always be able to do it. On a daysailer - you must do it, on a beautiful cruising boat like yours - not so much.

Just my 2cents, and stuff I'm pretty sure you would have already thought of. (Or, that Bob guy would have thought of it.)

Really, a TERRIFIC start to what is going to be a STUNNING boat!

Congratulations!

Beau

[Nessun Dorma]

The cockpit is large now. Those benches are 7'6" long ahead of the curvy part. The boat is 9'6" wide at the wheel. Any larger and (for me) it would not be as well suited for heavy weather offshore. We like it the way it is and if anything PSC is concerned it might be too big. I say its perfect - for me. Very personal. Plus there is a center cockpit for day lounging and dining, and when needed reefing the sails and operating halyards.

Yes, we are adding 12" LOA -- the starn just tapers more and ends 12" aft to create more deck but very little additional displacement. So now we are officially 60' LOA, 50 LWL and 15" max beam.

when you say you are adding 12" to the aft deck, does that mean you are adding 12" to the LOA?

the one concern i always had when looking at the diagrams was whether the cockpit was big enough - i think the mock up shows that it will work fine, although if it were my boat, i'd probably go slightly bigger.

[us7070]

The cockpit is large now. Those benches are 7'6" long ahead of the curvy part. The boat is 9'6" wide at the wheel. Any larger and (for me) it would not be as well suited for heavy weather offshore. We like it the way it is and if anything PSC is concerned it might be too big. I say its perfect - for me. Very personal. Plus there is a center cockpit for day lounging and dining, and when needed reefing the sails and operating halyards.

Yes, we are adding 12" LOA -- the starn just tapers more and ends 12" aft to create more deck but very little additional displacement. So now we are officially 60' LOA, 50 LWL and 15" max beam.

when you say you are adding 12" to the aft deck, does that mean you are adding 12" to the LOA?

the one concern i always had when looking at the diagrams was whether the cockpit was big enough - i think the mock up shows that it will work fine, although if it were my boat, i'd probably go slightly bigger.

i meant longer, not wider..., but if the benches are 7'6" long, i probably agree that it is long enough.

looks great!

[Jose Carumba]

ND. Does the coach roof and sides in the mockup represent the molded line (outside face) of the surfaces or the inside face with part thickness and liner, if any, taken into account? If not the latter you my find the headroom in the cockpit a bit lower than represented in the mockup. I assume the sole, deck and seats are to the molded line..

[Nessun Dorma]

BV-- Great minds (meaning yours, Bobs and PSCs and not mine) think alike - see below in CAPS.

ND,

This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. YES THERE WILL BE A POCKET DOOR IN THE RECESS THAT IS WATERPROOF AND SIZED FOR A LAPTOP OR AN IPAD. ONE ON EACH SIDE OF THE CUBBY, WITH A POWER ADAPTER INSIDE. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature. THUMPER EWAS ON THAT LIKE A DOG WITH A BONE. BUILT IN HOLDERS WITHIN REACH, SUITABLE FOR STEMWARE OR A CAN OR GLASS.

I'm sure you've tested this, but get Thumper to lay down on the cockpit seat and insure one can sleep there. My absolute favorite place to sleep during a passage is on the lee-side cockpit seat. You feel, hear and sense everything even when you're not on watch and the crew knows you're right there if they need you. Your cockpit is so luxo-amazing that there'd be plenty of room for a sleeping skipper if the seat is long enough. THOSE SEATS ARE 7/6" LONG AND WE TOOK TURNS LYING ON THEM. ONE THING NOT MOTED IS THAT THE COCKPIT AFT TABLE WILL RCESS (A TEAK GRATE) INTO THE SOLE AT THAT PART AND RAISE UP AND DOWN TO CREATE A TABLE OR SOLE. (I even put a seat-belt on Saga so I wouldn't get rolled off the seat in a round-down.)WE HAVE TWO SEATBELTS SPEC'D PER SIDE IN BOTH THE AFT AND CENTER COCKPIT - FOR ROLLINGA DULTS AND CARSEATS FOR LITTLE ONES.

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. THE FIRST THING BIG VICTOR SAID WHEN WE WERE STANDING AT THEA FT EDGE WAS 'WE NEED AM INTERGATED HAND HOLD OR STAINLESS BAR HERE, THEN TOOK ME TO SEE ONE ON A PSC 40 THATW AS NEARBY FOR REFIT WORK. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.

Finally, while we all love to sail from the rail, and far be it from me to discourage it, most cruising is on autopilot and I found that sitting on he windward rail amidships with the rest of the crew while steering with the autopilot remote control satisfied my desire to "sail" from the rail without needing to build a cockpit and wheel that let me get that far outboard. The wheel really does take a lot of space, which you undoubtedly found when you tried the "big" wheel in your mock up and it's so rarely used that I've reversed my earlier opinion that one should always be able to do it. On a daysailer - you must do it, on a beautiful cruising boat like yours - not so much. I AM VERY HAPPY WITH 36", WHICH FOR A BOAT THIS SIZE IS SMALL. ANY SMALLER LOOKS ODD. I MIGHT GO TO 42" BUT I FEAR IT WILL CROWD AND DWARF MY WIFE. SO YES YES, WE AGREE.

Just my 2cents, and stuff I'm pretty sure you would have already thought of. (Or, that Bob guy would have thought of it.)

Really, a TERRIFIC start to what is going to be a STUNNING boat! THANK YOU -- COMING FROM THE OWNER OF SAGAPO THAT IS QUITE THE COMPLIMENT !!!

Congratulations!

Beau

[Nessun Dorma]

They built to the interior lines so we could test headroom. When looking over the PH we added (visually) a 4" crown to represent line of sight over it due to depth. Does that answer the question?

ND. Does the coach roof and sides in the mockup represent the molded line (outside face) of the surfaces or the inside face with part thickness and liner, if any, taken into account? If not the latter you my find the headroom in the cockpit a bit lower than represented in the mockup. I assume the sole, deck and seats are to the molded line..

[Jose Carumba]

They built to the interior lines so we could test headroom. When looking over the PH we added (visually) a 4" crown to represent line of sight over it due to depth. Does that answer the question?

ND. Does the coach roof and sides in the mockup represent the molded line (outside face) of the surfaces or the inside face with part thickness and liner, if any, taken into account? If not the latter you my find the headroom in the cockpit a bit lower than represented in the mockup. I assume the sole, deck and seats are to the molded line..

Yep.

[blackjenner]

That looks amazing. I love the curve of the cockpit and the nice large hatch for the cabin entrance.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

[Nessun Dorma]

The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

[kdh]

The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

[Nessun Dorma]

+1

The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

[Tom Ray]

What strikes me when I look at those pics is what a nice job they have done on the mock up.

Me too. I want their scraps when they are done!

[Greever]

The credit is 80% Bob and 15% PSC. I get the remaining 5%.

ND, you guys are way ahead of me. I'm going to have to find SOMETHING obscure that you haven't thought of. Geeesh!! B-))

WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

Hang on there: Maestro IS THE founding member of The WLYDO, and as such THE WLYDO gets 80.01% of the credit!

[New Morning]

This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature.

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.

I think Beau hit some great points. We found that little ledge behind the benches to be useful for all kinds of little stuff. Everything from iPods to eye glasses and binoculars. We put a small fiddle on that ledge so that stuff stays up there. And as Beau suggests, we found the hand holds on the trailing edge of the dodger to be very useful. Great when you get up to scan the horizon with a pair of binoculars in one hand and really welcome when leaving the cockpit for the side deck.

Also, we found the two most popular seating positions while on watch are either sitting on the leward side facing aft, or sitting athwartship with our legs braced on the opposite bench. You might want to check those two positions for comfort.

Do you plan to put some nav instruments, like an MFD with radar, AIS, TWS, TWA, etc in the cuddy?

One other thing to think about with the cockpit layout is sheet tails, where will they go?

You're getting in the fun part as the 2D drawings become a 3D mockup. Enjoy!

[Nessun Dorma]

"We found that little ledge behind the benches to be useful for all kinds of little stuff. Everything from iPods to eye glasses and binoculars. We put a small fiddle on that ledge so that stuff stays up there. And as Beau suggests, we found the hand holds on the trailing edge of the dodger to be very useful. Great when you get up to scan the horizon with a pair of binoculars in one hand and really welcome when leaving the cockpit for the side deck." There will be fiddles and an enclosed door.

"Also, we found the two most popular seating positions while on watch are either sitting on the leward side facing aft, or sitting athwartship with our legs braced on the opposite bench. You might want to check those two positions for comfort." Both work well and have been designed for a 5'5" woman to 6'2" man, without the need for a center brace, etc.That's one reason I said to someone earlier we did not want to make anything wider than it was aft.

"Do you plan to put some nav instruments, like an MFD with radar, AIS, TWS, TWA, etc in the cuddy?" Yes, but we are waiting tos ee where technology lands when we get there in 20 months. Now it would be an MFD for radar/AIS charting under the cuddy with the sailing instruments at the mizzen. In 20 months we may just velcro Ipad's all over the place and throw them overboard when the batteries die, as thats eems to be 1/2 the price of custom marine isntallations. But there will be something at the cuddy for sure, as I tolerate nothing at the helm other than a compas and the AP control.

"One other thing to think about with the cockpit layout is sheet tails, where will they go?" We will have two deep well vertical line bins at the coaming between the winches; they drop down to a segregated sshaft with a fabric mesh bag that drains. When not in use they will have teak plugs that cover the bins and match the coaming.[/quote][quote name='New Morning' timestamp='1333057942' post='3649701']
[quote name='Beau.Vrolyk' timestamp='1333037384' post='3649209']
This looks GREAT!!! The overhang cuddy is particularly SWEET! You'll spend a lot of time in there watching the wake slowly disappear behind you.

A few of very minor thoughts, which I'm certain you've already thought of. First, if there can be a place to put a book or iPad - which one would be reading while on watch and have to stash when duty calls - someplace inside the cuddy I think you'd find it handy. Similarly, if there's a place to quickly put a beer/wine/coffee/tea container that you're holding and drinking when once again duty calls, I think you'd find these very useful. The Bill Lee molded beer holders, built right into the deck of Merlin, were always a wonderful feature.

It wouldn't be in the mock-up, I'm guessing, but hand-holds that are integrated into the aft edge of the cock-pit cuddy roof are terrific, provided they don't catch lines. I was always amazed at how happy my crew was to stand behind the cuddy roof and only have their head out in the weather.
[/quote]

I think Beau hit some great points. We found that little ledge behind the benches to be useful for all kinds of little stuff. Everything from iPods to eye glasses and binoculars. We put a small fiddle on that ledge so that stuff stays up there. And as Beau suggests, we found the hand holds on the trailing edge of the dodger to be very useful. Great when you get up to scan the horizon with a pair of binoculars in one hand and really welcome when leaving the cockpit for the side deck.

Also, we found the two most popular seating positions while on watch are either sitting on the leward side facing aft, or sitting athwartship with our legs braced on the opposite bench. You might want to check those two positions for comfort.

Do you plan to put some nav instruments, like an MFD with radar, AIS, TWS, TWA, etc in the cuddy?

One other thing to think about with the cockpit layout is sheet tails, where will they go?

You're getting in the fun part as the 2D drawings become a 3D mockup. Enjoy!
[/quote]

[Bob Perry]

All I did was interprit ND's ideas. It was the most drawn out preliminary design process I have ever done. We explored just about anything ND could think of. It was challenging and very rewarding.

[kdh]

WLYDO gets maybe a .01%.

Hang on there: Maestro IS THE founding member of The WLYDO, and as such THE WLYDO gets 80.01% of the credit!

I like you, Greevs.

I tolerate nothing at the helm other than a compas and the AP control.

+1

All I did was interpret ND's ideas. It was the most drawn out preliminary design process I have ever done. We explored just about anything ND could think of. It was challenging and very rewarding.

Thank you both for sharing.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

HEY! Does this mean that we, here on the forum, are the 0.01%??? How cool is that???

Does it mean that the 1% will be really jealous and someone will come and OCCUPY Bob's front lawn or something fun!!??!!

Does it mean that we're 100 times "better" than those 1% guys??

B-))

[Beau.Vrolyk]

ND,

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

B

Grump mode off now.

[kimbottles]

1333071793[/url]' post='3649983']
ND,

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

B

Grump mode off now.

+1

[Nessun Dorma]

+2 -- BV, Not sure where if anywhere I suggested that I disagreed but I agree 100% -- compass; AP controller (pocket); Cigar lighter (other pocket). Too much light? Don't think so.

1333071793[/url]' post='3649983']
ND,

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

B

Grump mode off now.

+1

[floating dutchman]

ND & Bob, That cotpit is something else, I'm still getting my head around it!
First impresion was WTF! then the more I look at the more I like it!
I remember seeing the renderinds of it and liking it but even the photoes of the mock-up change the prespictive.

I have some thoughts on what I think but I need to digest what I have seen before I can make constructive comments.

One thing that sticks out like dog's ball's is that the builders are taking this build on like one of their babies, "This is a build we will be proud of".

Thank you to Nessun Dorma for taking us along this build and Thanks to the builders for letting you post photoes as you go.

[Nessun Dorma]

Thank you for the kind words. Please feel free to pass on any comments or thoughts, that's why we have the WLYDO up and running. PM me if you wish as well.

+1 to the Pacific Seacraft guys being proud and treating this project like it's their own baby. That's the way they do things, you can feel it when you're in the shop. Most of the workers and their families were moved by the current owners, the Brodie's, from California to North Carolina to come build boats side by side with Carolina traditional boat guys. Maybe there's some healthy competition, but mostly I think its that, while the existing PSC line has great Crealock boats and a superb reputation for high quality, PSC hasn't had a new model for more than 20 years. They're honored to be working with Bob and the guys look at this project as a kind of new beginning, if that makes sense, so yes, all of them are really into the boat.

ND & Bob, That cotpit is something else, I'm still getting my head around it!
First impresion was WTF! then the more I look at the more I like it!
I remember seeing the renderinds of it and liking it but even the photoes of the mock-up change the prespictive.

I have some thoughts on what I think but I need to digest what I have seen before I can make constructive comments.

One thing that sticks out like dog's ball's is that the builders are taking this build on like one of their babies, "This is a build we will be proud of".

Thank you to Nessun Dorma for taking us along this build and Thanks to the builders for letting you post photoes as you go.

[Joli]

I agree Beau, except for a depth sounder, we live in a world where deep water is scarce. An mfd at the helm is handy, it doesn't need to be bright. We'll re-anchor the boat at the drop of a hat if the wind goes around. We also have an mfd above our bunk.

ND,

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

B

Grump mode off now.

[wick]

ND - Thanks for taking us along on the build process. You mentioned discussion with PSC on the cockpit size while looking over the mock-up. Made me think about cockpit drainage. Where are the drains going to be situated? How does the cockpit sole slope? Looks like there is a step up from the cuddy area to the helm section, and a step at the companionway entrance. So would any boarding water end up in the cuddy area footwell to drain out?

BTW that curved helm area seating looks like it will work very well for sundowners.

[chippin' away]

1333071793[/url]' post='3649983']
ND,

You know I'm a real curmudgeon about instruments - I actually hate them. (Grump mode going on) That said, be really careful with how much light gets generated (even when the interments are "off") in your cockpit. I can't tell you how many times I've ended up duct taping bags over instruments on deliveries to keep them from blinding me. It has made me the grumpy guy I am on this topic.

Boats managed to explore almost ever inch of the known world without GPS, RADAR, AIS, and Chart Plotters. Yes, they did have to actually look out over the bow to see what they were about to sail over or run into, but it does work. There is almost nothing as USELESS as a rich owner of a boat who is completely night-blind from having looked into electronic displays when it's time to go onto the foredeck and deal with a gear failure on a dark and stormy night. We had to tell one owner he wasn't allowed to EVER leave the cockpit after dark because he was constantly destroying his night vision with his iPhone and the various displays in his Command Center. Pitiful, he couldn't sail, he was effectively blind.

So..... I wouldn't put anything in the cockpit except a compass with a very dim light. Navigation instruments belong in that beautiful navigation station you're building down below, where the night-blind people live. Let the real sailor sail the boat in peace and in the dark. Geeesh next thing you know folks will want to turn on the spreader lights just to trim the sails.... geeesh!

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

B

Grump mode off now.

...OR you can just put the instument covers on.

[Nessun Dorma]

That's the plan yes, although there will be drains aft as well. The "step" at the companionway is a sill that will be as tall as we can make it without posing a tripping hazard or restricting height overhead. When we left the mockup that seemed to be around 5", maybe 6" (you step over it then down one step). There also are two watertight drop boards planned that slide in front of the companionway doors. One or both will be in place whenever it's warranted. If (when) we get surprised the sill is the first line of defense. We debated a full raised bridge deck and may yet go that way, but for now we are leaning against it. Hope that makes sense.

ND - Thanks for taking us along on the build process. You mentioned discussion with PSC on the cockpit size while looking over the mock-up. Made me think about cockpit drainage. Where are the drains going to be situated? How does the cockpit sole slope? Looks like there is a step up from the cuddy area to the helm section, and a step at the companionway entrance. So would any boarding water end up in the cuddy area footwell to drain out?

BTW that curved helm area seating looks like it will work very well for sundowners.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

ND, I didn't mean to imply you were a instrument nut in my grumpy post. I was just mouthing off on something I feel strongly about.

Joli, I understand that one needs to know how deep it is, and there are places (mostly bays and in the dark) where it's not possible to just look at the water color, but I've found that a lot of the instruments are quite bright at night even with the display turned into the "off" position. Little monitor lights, lit keys etc..., and many of them turn "off" by simply setting the LCD (better with LED displays) to "block" the back-light rather than actually turning it off. This allows a LOT of light leakage around the edges; and while the screen looks "black" during the day, on a pitch black night you can practically read by the thing.

Regarding re-anchoring, my worst events have been some clown turning on a light below or flicking on the display of the RADAR so they can "look at where we are" and destroying my night vision as a problem is developing. My practice is to get up, get dressed in the dark, go on deck and look around. If I think there's a need for a nav instrument, then terrific I'll turn one on and in shallow water that will certainly be a depth finder. But, once those things are on, you've removed the option of just looking around and really inhibited your ability to function well on deck in the dark.

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

I really will stop being grumpy now.

B-)

[Tucky]

ND, I didn't mean to imply you were a instrument nut in my grumpy post. I was just mouthing off on something I feel strongly about.

Joli, I understand that one needs to know how deep it is, and there are places (mostly bays and in the dark) where it's not possible to just look at the water color, but I've found that a lot of the instruments are quite bright at night even with the display turned into the "off" position. Little monitor lights, lit keys etc..., and many of them turn "off" by simply setting the LCD (better with LED displays) to "block" the back-light rather than actually turning it off. This allows a LOT of light leakage around the edges; and while the screen looks "black" during the day, on a pitch black night you can practically read by the thing.

Regarding re-anchoring, my worst events have been some clown turning on a light below or flicking on the display of the RADAR so they can "look at where we are" and destroying my night vision as a problem is developing. My practice is to get up, get dressed in the dark, go on deck and look around. If I think there's a need for a nav instrument, then terrific I'll turn one on and in shallow water that will certainly be a depth finder. But, once those things are on, you've removed the option of just looking around and really inhibited your ability to function well on deck in the dark.

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

I really will stop being grumpy now.

B-)

I also like it dark- remember the thread about pirate eye patches? Maybe you should have one.

[Steam Flyer]

...
Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

I really will stop being grumpy now.

B-)

At least you weren't hanging half off the foredeck wrestling with a spinnaker wrap ... at night of course... when a dumbass in the cockpit decides to take a flash picture of the action.

The photo didn't turn out, either.

FB- Doug

[chippin' away]

ND, I didn't mean to imply you were a instrument nut in my grumpy post. I was just mouthing off on something I feel strongly about.

Joli, I understand that one needs to know how deep it is, and there are places (mostly bays and in the dark) where it's not possible to just look at the water color, but I've found that a lot of the instruments are quite bright at night even with the display turned into the "off" position. Little monitor lights, lit keys etc..., and many of them turn "off" by simply setting the LCD (better with LED displays) to "block" the back-light rather than actually turning it off. This allows a LOT of light leakage around the edges; and while the screen looks "black" during the day, on a pitch black night you can practically read by the thing.

Regarding re-anchoring, my worst events have been some clown turning on a light below or flicking on the display of the RADAR so they can "look at where we are" and destroying my night vision as a problem is developing. My practice is to get up, get dressed in the dark, go on deck and look around. If I think there's a need for a nav instrument, then terrific I'll turn one on and in shallow water that will certainly be a depth finder. But, once those things are on, you've removed the option of just looking around and really inhibited your ability to function well on deck in the dark.

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

I really will stop being grumpy now.

B-)

That's what eyelids are for. You close them before your night vision is wrecked.

[European Bloke]

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

I really will stop being grumpy now.

B-)

Your real problem there is that your on a boat with some fellow who thinks he need to put his fucking socks on before he can get his arse on deck to deal with a wrap.

[Joli]

+1
Or the foreguy that's parted.

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

I really will stop being grumpy now.

B-)

Your real problem there is that your on a boat with some fellow who thinks he need to put his fucking socks on before he can get his arse on deck to deal with a wrap.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

All,

OK, I think we're all in violent agreement that when all hell breaks loose you should run barefooted onto the foredeck with your pirate eyepatch on and deal with it! Also, that we should keep it dark aboard so we can avoid stubbing our toes on those pesky cleats while we're dashing around barefoot.

I'll stop hijacking ND's thread now and return to our regularly scheduled programming. (I do love Steam Flyer's comment about the Flash Photo Geeesh!!)

Beau

[blackjenner]

...
Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

I really will stop being grumpy now.

B-)

At least you weren't hanging half off the foredeck wrestling with a spinnaker wrap ... at night of course... when a dumbass in the cockpit decides to take a flash picture of the action.

The photo didn't turn out, either.

FB- Doug

Is that because you threw his camera overboard?

[svgreatwhite]

Guys, I know I'm a little extreme about all this, but it comes from experiences like having to sort out a wrapped chute in the dark and being unable to see the damn thing because some idiot couldn't find his socks without turning on a light as he was getting up.

Or when the skipper insists that the spreader lights need to be turned on so when we look up to try to untangle halyards all we can see is the lights glaring in our eyes!

[Hike, Bitches!]

Wow...I could build a whole house with that mock up (almost).

Nice work!

[Beau.Vrolyk]

ND and Bob,

I have been having a long debate with some folks about cockpit drain size. Could either of you opine on the ration of cubic feet of water to drain cross sectional area. Given the size of Catari's cockpit, I'm guessing you had that conversation.

BV

[kdh]

I have been having a long debate with some folks about cockpit drain size.

For my next boat if I'm not going to have a pinched rear and a real transom it might as well be open. I like the way it's done here.

http://sparkmansteph...-loa-sloop.html

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Kdh,

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

Beau

[Bob Perry]

kdh:
I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.
Nice cover stripe though.

[kimbottles]

1333207637[/url]' post='3651860']
Kdh,

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

Beau

BV, how did you bent the shaft? Kim

[Soñadora]

I like how that 'wing deck' or whatever it's called aft is perfectly aligned with the back of the skippers knees. Get knocked back a few steps by a wave and you're clipped like a rookie quarterback.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

1333207637[/url]' post='3651860']
Kdh,

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

Beau

BV, how did you bent the shaft? Kim

K,

It seems to have been bent since before we bought her. We attributed excessive motor vibration to worn mounts, wrong diagnosis. While we're in there we re-doing isolator as well.

B

[kimbottles]

1333207948[/url]' post='3651873']

1333207758[/url]' post='3651866']

1333207637[/url]' post='3651860']
Kdh,

It occurred to me that ND could just open the transom swim-step to let the water out. I can't and I'm a little worried about the weight aboard when we get buried. It's blowing 30-40 knots today, gusts to 55k, swell is NW at 20' and a S wind chop on top of it of about 7'. Of course we're holding the Double Handed Farallon's Race today and there will be a lot of FULL cockpits on the tight reach home from the island. Sadly, I'll miss the fun as we're fixing a bent prop shaft.

Beau

BV, how did you bent the shaft? Kim

K,

It seems to have been bent since before we bought her. We attributed excessive motor vibration to worn mounts, wrong diagnosis. While we're in there we re-doing isolator as well.

B

smart move

[kdh]

kdh:
I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.
Nice cover stripe though.

To my eye now that I look I agree with you, Bob. Especially aft it's too bulky, with too much curvature. It's generally not harmonious with the hull.

I can't imagine building a boat without a real transom anyway.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

kdh:
I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.
Nice cover stripe though.

To my eye now that I look I agree with you, Bob. Especially aft it's too bulky, with too much curvature. It's generally not harmonious with the hull.

I can't imagine building a boat without a real transom anyway.

With my little boat, Moore-24, folks are cutting the transoms out. Reasons: lets water out faster than 2x2" drains, you can get yourself back aboard, looks more "modern". The second reason is the good one, although the last one is probibly compelling the behavior. BV

[steele]

At first glance I understand the open cockpit idea on that S&S boat, but many of these designs look too open. It is easy to see how something important like a child, or a beer, could fly right out the back. I also think that although they let a lot of water out fast, a moderate wave could let a lot in and then wash you out the stern. Although sugar scoop sterns are about the worst look for a boat, they seem to be a good compromise for boarding and security for cruising.

[slap]

kdh:
I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.
Nice cover stripe though.

It looks like the side of the cabin trunk has *less* slope as you go forward.

[Bob Perry]

Slap:
I agree but I think that is an illusion. I think the slope is the samne as it goes forward. And there lies the problem. If you do that you create the effect that there is less slope foward. I learned that on the Valiant 40. I looked at the V40 cabin trunk and ask4ed myself, "Did I draw it like that?" I said back to myself, "Yes you did. You idiot. Now, never do that again." I was 29 years old.

I think some of the very best looking cabin trunks were built by Jerry Driscol when he built a series of S&S boats all around 46 to 50' BRUSHFIRE is a boat name that comes to mind. I was never sure of how much of it was Driscol's eye and how much was the S&S drawings. I suspect the nuances of those shape is more Driscol's responsability. Jerry Driscol once lectured me on cabin trun design and I listened. Mt feelings were hurt but I knew I was learning something from a master.

[Jose Carumba]

I remember you teaching this Bob.

[Soñadora]

Personally, I think the trunk is too high forward. Like the eyebrow is almost parallel to the sheer, and I don't think it should be like that. Or at least, it should taper more. But I'm not yacht designer.

Sorry I keep using this as an example, but it's all I know. I'm sure someone can provide a better example.



edit:

Maybe this is a better example

Tartan 37

[Bob Perry]

Now that's a fine little looking hooker.

[hobot]

Now that's a fine little looking hooker.

Nice post to land at the top of a page.....thought i'd fallen into the GA rabbit hole and had to go take a look.



I have to say Bob, I'm a little disappointed.

[Bob Perry]

Hobs:
I'm not even going to ask.

[Beau.Vrolyk]

Sons,

My "rule-of-thumb" with respect to truck cabins etc... has been that the lines they appear to create with their eyebrow, top edge, top and bottom edge of ports and windows, etc.... should all intersect the tip of the bow of the boat if that line was extended forward. Boats that do this, I seem to like the look of.



Bob,

As to the Valiant-40 cabin sides, I'd never been able to put my finger on what it was I didn't like about the shape. Now I know and you're exactly right. Thanks!

Beau

[Anomaly2]

kdh:
I think that is a butt ugly cabin trunk. You think they could go back and look at some of their old desgins and see at what made a good looking cabin trunk.
Nice cover stripe though.

Cabin trunk? I didn't get that far because the off-center companionway stopped me cold. You'd think a firm like S&S would know better.

[Boomberries]

ND - I am excited for you that your dream boat Catari, is starting to take wing on a physical level now. All your thorough planning and prep, and an incredible design. I look forward to watching the build through your posts and photos. Thanks for sharing

[floating dutchman]

Back to the cotpit.

ND & Bob, Do the two + two seats in the forward part of the cotpit have to be parallel or could they be made to face aft slightly, opening up the area slightly? (increasing the gap in the aft end between the seats)

One reason I give for this change (and you may find this a little silly) is that that is a place where people feeling a little green around the gills are going to go for fresh air and shelter, facing the seats aft a little will help them to look at the horizon.

Other reasons too, just that one was a bit, well, maybe unthought of.

[floating dutchman]

One other small thing: Some illumimated cup holders, just to keep Beau happy.

<<Duck>>

[Nessun Dorma]

I'm not sure I follow the question, sorry. Again maybe? Or I'll go have some coffee first and look again.

Back to the cotpit.

ND & Bob, Do the two + two seats in the forward part of the cotpit have to be parallel or could they be made to face aft slightly, opening up the area slightly? (increasing the gap in the aft end between the seats)

One reason I give for this change (and you may find this a little silly) is that that is a place where people feeling a little green around the gills are going to go for fresh air and shelter, facing the seats aft a little will help them to look at the horizon.

Other reasons too, just that one was a bit, well, maybe unthought of.

[Paps]

Now that's a fine little looking hooker.

Your going to have to explain that one Bob.

[Paps]

Very exciting to get to this stage ND, congratulations.

[floating dutchman]

I'm not sure I follow the question, sorry. Again maybe? Or I'll go have some coffee first and look again.

Back to the cotpit.

ND & Bob, Do the two + two seats in the forward part of the cotpit have to be parallel or could they be made to face aft slightly, opening up the area slightly? (increasing the gap in the aft end between the seats)

One reason I give for this change (and you may find this a little silly) is that that is a place where people feeling a little green around the gills are going to go for fresh air and shelter, facing the seats aft a little will help them to look at the horizon.

Other reasons too, just that one was a bit, well, maybe unthought of.

 Untitled 1a.jpg   44.09K   129 downloads

Move the front of the seats to be along the blue lines. I realize that this will stuff up the backrests but this is what you pay Bob for.

Maybe you are to far down the design line for a change like this, or maybe ther are other reasons for it to be a no-go. I guess you posted picks for feed back and here it is.

Dam that was eayser when I could use "paint" Linux computers sure do give the average man some dificultys. (like spell check)

[Nessun Dorma]

Got it.

Appreciate the thoughts (as you said, i wouldn't post if at this stage I wasn't willing to listen). A few reasons not to do that:

Makes bracing very difficult/impossible for anyone less than 6'2" (too far)
Makes sleeping on the long benches harder as now you roll off
Not being on center-line feels odd when there is any roll and if someone is sick may make them worse
There is storage below and that removes a chunk of it
There is cabin/berth below and that intrudes big-time

I can honestly say that right now the only real open issue I have in my mind about the aft cockpit is whether we should use a permanent bridge deck at the companionway for safety and more stowage and then need to deal with clamoring over and on top of it every time we go below.

I'm not sure I follow the question, sorry. Again maybe? Or I'll go have some coffee first and look again.

Back to the cotpit.

ND & Bob, Do the two + two seats in the forward part of the cotpit have to be parallel or could they be made to face aft slightly, opening up the area slightly? (increasing the gap in the aft end between the seats)

One reason I give for this change (and you may find this a little silly) is that that is a place where people feeling a little green around the gills are going to go for fresh air and shelter, facing the seats aft a little will help them to look at the horizon.

Other reasons too, just that one was a bit, well, maybe unthought of.

 Untitled 1a.jpg   44.09K   129 downloads

Move the front of the seats to be along the blue lines. I realize that this will stuff up the backrests but this is what you pay Bob for.

Maybe you are to far down the design line for a change like this, or maybe ther are other reasons for it to be a no-go. I guess you posted picks for feed back and here it is.

Dam that was eayser when I could use "paint" Linux computers sure do give the average man some dificultys. (like spell check)

[Innocent Bystander]

Snip

I can honestly say that right now the only real open issue I have in my mind about the aft cockpit is whether we should use a permanent bridge deck at the companionway for safety and more stowage and then need to deal with clamoring over and on top of it every time we go below.

Now that's a tough question. I'm sure the "sill" has been designed to be at or above ABYC guidelines, but it's a big cockpit and you don't want tons of water getting below. A bridgedeck under a hard dodger is a real hassle for getting below though.

I would go with what you have but make sure you have a foolproof way to fix a very sturdy lower hatchboard and install that before you think it's required.

[floating dutchman]

I can honestly say that right now the only real open issue I have in my mind about the aft cockpit is whether we should use a permanent bridge deck at the companionway for safety and more stowage and then need to deal with clamoring over and on top of it every time we go below.

Keep the sill as high as can be easly stepped over, My little boat has hight sill and I hopped on a sister ship the other day with no (or very little) sill, made the boat feel vunarable to me. The sill on my boat is almost as high as the cotpit seats and my six year old has no issues getting in or out of the boat, but that sill does a good job of keeping seawater (and chunder, nobody is allowed to chunder over the side on my boat, in the cotpit, a bucket will take care of it (no falling over the side chundering allowed)). I sail with kids in tow.
Storage! Dam you have 59 ft of boat, find other places to store stuff, Don't make getting in or out of the boat a chore just for a place to keep winch handles and other assorted cotpit crap.

Gotya on the other stuff.

[kdh]

Snip

I can honestly say that right now the only real open issue I have in my mind about the aft cockpit is whether we should use a permanent bridge deck at the companionway for safety and more stowage and then need to deal with clamoring over and on top of it every time we go below.

Now that's a tough question. I'm sure the "sill" has been designed to be at or above ABYC guidelines, but it's a big cockpit and you don't want tons of water getting below. A bridgedeck under a hard dodger is a real hassle for getting below though.

I would go with what you have but make sure you have a foolproof way to fix a very sturdy lower hatchboard and install that before you think it's required.

Do you contemplate having stowage, accessed from below just under the companionway opening, under/in the step as shown in the mockup? Stowage easily accessed from below and in the cockpit is very convenient. I have it there on my boat.

Do you imagine on fair weather days having everyone in the forward cockpit, maybe with a remote autopilot controller? All in all it's an ingenious use of outside space.

[Nessun Dorma]

Right now there is little more than a sill, so no, there is no stowage from below as there is no space. If we do place a raised bridge deck of any height and width then it would have access from below as well as from the cockpit. Current candidate is a small day cooler that can also provide dry storage.

The forward cockpit has shallow seat backs and handrail-backrests. In rough weather we'll attach a life line at the cockpit (more on that later). As designed, the cockpit has multiple uses -

Sunning/lounging during slow sails or at anchor
Non-continuous sail handling such as reefing, asym and halyards for both main and mizzen
Dining for large groups at anchor
Sleeping outdoors
A place to be above deck and private (boats get small)
Mid ship watch station with AP as you say ( second compass and repeaters will be in CC)
Access to engine room via hatch or to topside of engine from above
Three-point hanging spot for my hammock (mizzen to boom gallows)

That's the concepts at least.

Snip

I can honestly say that right now the only real open issue I have in my mind about the aft cockpit is whether we should use a permanent bridge deck at the companionway for safety and more stowage and then need to deal with clamoring over and on top of it every time we go below.

Now that's a tough question. I'm sure the "sill" has been designed to be at or above ABYC guidelines, but it's a big cockpit and you don't want tons of water getting below. A bridgedeck under a hard dodger is a real hassle for getting below though.

I would go with what you have but make sure you have a foolproof way to fix a very sturdy lower hatchboard and install that before you think it's required.

Do you contemplate having stowage, accessed from below just under the companionway opening, under/in the step as shown in the mockup? Stowage easily accessed from below and in the cockpit is very convenient. I have it there on my boat.

Do you imagine on fair weather days having everyone in the forward cockpit, maybe with a remote autopilot controller? All in all it's an ingenious use of outside space.

[Joli]

We day sail from the aft cockpit but transport from the center cockpit but we have no below deck excess to the aft cockpit like ND does. Deliveries are made from the center cockpit 90% of the time with the autopilot driving. The main is in the center cockpit and the fore guy winches double for the jib sheets provided we are not going uphill.

I can understand ND's concern, a bridge deck under a hard dodger creates interesting ingress/egress geometry issues but the back of the bus is vulnerable to being pooped so what do you do? Maybe the center cockpit becomes the heavy weather sailing alternative and the aft cockpit is secured.

Certainly now is the time to muddle these thoughts.

[Estar]

a bridge deck under a hard dodger creates interesting ingress/egress geometry issues but the back of the bus is vulnerable to being pooped so what do you do?

You (or at least we) install a nice watertight dutch door. The whole door can be slammed shut in no time, and the bottom half can be kept closed (creating a 'bridge deck') during bad weather while still allowing communication and air flow (and the height should be set so that you can just step over it).

[Innocent Bystander]

a bridge deck under a hard dodger creates interesting ingress/egress geometry issues but the back of the bus is vulnerable to being pooped so what do you do?

You (or at least we) install a nice watertight dutch door. The whole door can be slammed shut in no time, and the bottom half can be kept closed (creating a 'bridge deck') during bad weather while still allowing communication and air flow (and the height should be set so that you can just step over it).

Estar,

I thought about a dutch door such as yours, but your companionway is somewhat set back into the house, leaving a "doorway" that accomodates the door when open so it doesn't stick out into the cockpit too much. ND's companionway looks flush with the aft end of the house so any hinged door will significantly intrude into the space. I think it would take a pretty significant redsign of that area (interior as well) to make doors that are functional but not intrusive.

I was wondering if he could have an "in port and coastal" option as it's mocked up and install a more significant, semi-permanant hatchboard on a passage. No doubt that would be a hassle, but it's a quandry as it is now.

[Veeger]

I've learned that I really like an easy access cockpit to cabin approach. While I understand the offshore concerns, in practice you only have questionable conditions a very small percentage of the time you're aboard. Sacrificing easy access for 98% of your boat use doesn't make sense to me when you can add a beefed up hatch board arrangement for the 2% of time you're offshore in potentially threatening weather.

You would have to be rigid about what your parameters were for putting it in place but then, when the weather pipes up, one usually has to begin thinking more in a lot of areas, i.e. reefing, jackline use, etc. When you're thinking about those things you're also thinking about that bridgedeck hatchboard.

If ND is like me, the joints, knees and back don't get any more flexible with age. Just sayin'.

[Estar]

I thought about a dutch door such as yours, but your companionway is somewhat set back into the house,

Yes, agreed, Hawk's arrangement is slightly better suited to a door.

But if it were me, I would find a way to make a door work, because they are so much more convenient than hatch boards.

One way might be to have it open in rather than out. I am not sure what impact that would have on the interior, and while it's not ideal from a water pressure standpoint (on ours water pressure compresses the seals so it gets even more water tight), but it could be built to sufficient tolerance to work.

Another option would be to have the bottom 'dutch' part relatively shallow - just up to the height of the seat tops, and so the bottom part would swing out to the side of the well flush with the seat top and the top part would be designed to act as /create an armchair 'side brace' when open.

There are fabric door options that work if carefully designed and made, and you could then have a solid bottom wash board (behind the door usually set at sea) that just reaches to the top of the sea. A couple of the volvo's have fabric doors this time around. They will of course never bee as bulletproof (water or heat) as a solid door but they do work well enough (combined with the lower wash board) to keep the bulk of a breaking wave out.

There are some designs for wash boards that slide down into a slot below the cockpit sole that are pretty convenient, but you need space below the sole - not sure what's there now. There is also a 'folding hinge' wash board design that is not quite as elegant but does not need the room below the sole.

Or Bob could redesign the cockpit to better fit a dutch door

[Beau.Vrolyk]

ND,

A thought to consider. We on S'agapo have a set of doors that open outward, the proper way, with good sills and stops to keep a wave from forcing them inward. However, to get out of the boat one feels that at least one of them needs to be opened allowing a hell of a lot of water into the boat from the Cockpit if the water level is above the 8" sill that's built in. In these parts we get a bunch of water in the cockpit on beam reaches, so it's not uncommon for there to be more than 8" of water in there when S'agapo is heeled over and folks are going to and fro during a race.

The solution we've come up with is an interior board, which is kept stowed under the quarter berth cushion, which locks in place on the inside of the doors and fills the opening up to above the cockpit seats. We don't get water in the cockpit on runs, the boat is light enough and fast enough not to get pooped (so far) and the aft deck is long enough that most of any water coming over the stern doesn't make it to the cockpit. Ours is really more of a center cockpit based upon its position. Then, the way out of the boat in ugly but not awful conditions is to open the sliding bit above you, open the door and step over the board. It's a bit of a step but not too terrible. The board also further reinforces the doors in case of a really big wave or inversion. In "awful" conditions, when one is really worried about big seas aboard, the doors are locked and one can only go in and out through the sliding bit of the hatch. This is harder on the less flexible crew, but it keeps a LOT more of the water out of the boat and I'm installing a few foot steps, disguised as hand holds, along the door jams to let you use your legs when hoisting your bumm up onto the cabin top as you exit. Getting in is easy - just fall.

The only condition to all this is that the watch captain has to make a call that things are rough enough and it's time to shift gears and to install the board. Our rule of thumb with this and with reefing while cruising is "First time you think of it do it." So on the list is installing the hatch board, closing the sea cock on the engine exhaust and various other thru hulls, test running the auto bilge pump, and checking all forward hatches that they are securely dogged down. I really like having an explicit checklist that everyone knows (It's on a card in the chart table) and that the watch captain know they are in charge of making the call on changing gears.

Beau

[PNW Matt B]

Do a short door that's hinged at the bottom. When open, it forms the top of a low bridge deck. Flip it up and latch it, you have a high sill for water to get over. Two hatchboards above to completely close the companionway.

[Salazar]

Do a short door that's hinged at the bottom. When open, it forms the top of a low bridge deck. Flip it up and latch it, you have a high sill for water to get over. Two hatchboards above to completely close the companionway.

I really like this suggestion so I'll take it a bit further:

Instead of this being a low bridge deck this door (folding washboard) could be recessed into the cockpit sole, concealed just below a hinged teak grate that forms part of the sole just in front of the companionway. Lift the grate (which is hinged aft), flip up the door hidden below to close off the lower section of the companionway, drop the teak grate back down. This door / washboard could be as high as needed, a couple of inches higher than the seats if needed so water rolling down the seats won't just roll in the opening. You could locate the large cockpit drains under this grate as well.

I'm assuming the step at the companionway shown in the photos is just a temporary measure?