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#101 NoStrings

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:07 AM

Historically, the PacCup has prohibited "stacking". It did allow "drying of sails on deck". So naturally everyone kept showing up with stacks of drying sails. This yr., they decided to permit stacking. I hope they never allow viewing of the tracker pages, even if they are delayed by 4 hrs.

#102 us7070

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:11 AM

7070

At your suggestion I did go back and read your posts, both here and in the cabo thread.

It seems you might be the kind of navigator that this rule is aimed at. You said you have never been in a race where using the tracker is not allowed. Surely you must have raced before there was tracking if you are a navigator now. If that is the case, you must have some honey holes or secret moves you would like to use. If not you should get some.

It's not a stupid rule, no one who was in the race was un aware of the rule. As you said, the si's are pretty short. No one broke this rule on accident because it is not common on the east coast. If they broke it, it was because they don't think they can be caught.

It's a good rule. It allows for some break away moves and allows only some information once a day. It's part of the game in this particular race. We don't want guys sitting at the nav station downloading gribs, following expedition (that is never really right anyway), following the guy in front of you, surfing porn on the owners phone bill.

Sail your own race. Report your position at roll call and wait for the email back.

That other stuff about the borrowed J/35 and the kinetics and the protest was lame.

You're right, you did not say anything about sails.



i guess what i meant is i haven't _navigated_ an ocean race where accessing the tracker isn't allowed.

i never said it was a stupid rule.

i never said anything about J/35's and kinetics - i have no idea what you are talking about

#103 NorCalLaser

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:41 AM

cheating is cheatin'

it is what it is... despite the attempts to spin it

#104 Dog Watch

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:40 AM

Not the best wording due to the ambiguous use of 'ballast' and undefined 'properly stowed'. However, sense makes sense!

Here:

1. Sails are not ballast.

2. In rule 51 only, sails are included as moveable ballast. Hence, the rule indicates that you can move them, so long as you properly stow them.

3. "Shall be properly stowed" is not defined. This should be people's problem... However, it must mean (since you can move it - 'moveable') that whatever moveable ballast you have, is properly secured and locked down in whatever position you have moved it to. It just can't be bouncing around below decks, or if you have moved it up on deck it is lashed. There is nothing saying where you can move the ballast to or can't move ballast to.

4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.

i.e. ALL OTHER BALLAST must be left in the position they are meant to be in.

5. Internal fixtures must be left in place.

Hope that helps.

DW

#105 mh111

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:12 AM

Not the best wording due to the ambiguous use of 'ballast' and undefined 'properly stowed'. However, sense makes sense!

Here:

1. Sails are not ballast.

2. In rule 51 only, sails are included as moveable ballast. Hence, the rule indicates that you can move them, so long as you properly stow them.

3. "Shall be properly stowed" is not defined. This should be people's problem... However, it must mean (since you can move it - 'moveable') that whatever moveable ballast you have, is properly secured and locked down in whatever position you have moved it to. It just can't be bouncing around below decks, or if you have moved it up on deck it is lashed. There is nothing saying where you can move the ballast to or can't move ballast to.

4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.

i.e. ALL OTHER BALLAST must be left in the position they are meant to be in.

5. Internal fixtures must be left in place.

Hope that helps.

DW

before you move any ballast, a question to be asked is "IS THE BOAT RATED WITH MOVEABLE BALLAST ?"

if the answer is NO then you can't move anything that can act as ballast and all the convoluted debate about RRS does not mean a thing

just thought i'd point that out...

cheers,

#106 Dog Watch

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:29 AM


Not the best wording due to the ambiguous use of 'ballast' and undefined 'properly stowed'. However, sense makes sense!

Here:

1. Sails are not ballast.

2. In rule 51 only, sails are included as moveable ballast. Hence, the rule indicates that you can move them, so long as you properly stow them.

3. "Shall be properly stowed" is not defined. This should be people's problem... However, it must mean (since you can move it - 'moveable') that whatever moveable ballast you have, is properly secured and locked down in whatever position you have moved it to. It just can't be bouncing around below decks, or if you have moved it up on deck it is lashed. There is nothing saying where you can move the ballast to or can't move ballast to.

4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.

i.e. ALL OTHER BALLAST must be left in the position they are meant to be in.

5. Internal fixtures must be left in place.

Hope that helps.

DW

before you move any ballast, a question to be asked is "IS THE BOAT RATED WITH MOVEABLE BALLAST ?"

if the answer is NO then you can't move anything that can act as ballast and all the convoluted debate about RRS does not mean a thing

just thought i'd point that out...

cheers,


Not sure about that.

Are boats rated for 'moveable ballast'? I thought a boat is rated for specific moveable ballast. e.g. is rated for its canting keel. That does not mean every cup, saucer, pot or pan or sail not set must be left in the same position on the boat for the race!



Clarification:

'Properly stowed'

"Properly' as per its intended design OR in a sensible and safe manner."

IF there is a purposefully designed means of securing, then it should be used

ELSE properly stowed must mean something like,'secured in a sensible and seamanlike way' so its shifting cannot increase risk or cause damage to people or property.

Hence a sail on deck, in its bag and lashed down is acceptable. A sail on deck with a couple of sail ties flapping around and about to blow off, is not acceptable.

An anchor securely fixed so it can't move or risk puncturing the hull is acceptable. An anchor which could slide around is not acceptable

An inboard engine attached to a specially designed engine mount is acceptable. An inboard engine lashed to the floor when there is a specially designed engine mount available is not acceptable

SECOND SENTENCE OF RULE 51. Water, dead weight or ballast.

Water - self-explanatory
Dead Weight - The fixed Weight which serves no specific purpose during the race. e.g. An inboard engine required by Cat 1. The hull structure of the boat.
*Ballast - In this sentence, it means Weight specifically INSTALLED / attached / added to influence the stability, flotation or total weight of the boat. e.g. a keel.

So in the second sentence, ballast is used in its purest form as weight specifically for that purpose, rather than say weight of any general object.

#107 us7070

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:09 PM

cheating is cheatin'

it is what it is... despite the attempts to spin it



everyone who broke the rule should RAF.


i didn't participate in this race, and am not in any way an interested party.

my comments in this thread were mostly in response to those who though that rules banning access to tracker data are the norm.

they are not.

in fact, as i mentioned, expedition has a built-in tool for displaying tracking data.

many races go so far as to provide the data in a format suited to low bandwidth connections, in the expedition format.

here is the link for low bandwidth access to tracking of the Cabo race, which started yesterday.

http://yb.tl/links/cabo2012

i'm not sure why, but a few seem to think that by pointing out that tracking is not banned in other races, i am somehow excusing it in this race...

i am not - everyone who broke the rule should RAF.

while i might feel sorry for a navigator who didn't read the emails or the SI's, and now has to retire, that doesn't mean they should be excused.

the SI's do not permit an alternate penalty for this, and they have no choice but to retire.

anyone who accessed the tracking data, knowing it was not allowed, cheated. there is no other word for it.

#108 Grinder

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:32 PM

So without looking up the results, has anyone admitted fault & retired at this late date?

#109 JohnMB

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:56 PM

4. Second sentence of rule 51 is the problem. Here it mentions ballast again. Since 'moveable ballast' has already been dealt with, we must consider that 'ballast' in the second sentence means 'any ballast which is not moveable'. e.g. you can't send a diver down to take your keel off, and hang it off the windward rail. You can't take the water tank and pull it up to the high side of the cabin. You can't unbolt your inboard engine from the normal engine mounts and heave it up to weather.


DW


why? Why do he have to consider that ballast in the second sentence means any ballast that is not moveable... if we do the sentence makes no sense.

"Ballast which is not moveable shall not be moved......". pretty damn redundant.

what part of this excludes moveable ballast?
why does the syndey hobart include an SI chnaging RRS 51 to allow you to move moveable ballast for the purposed of altering trim and stability?


the first sentence includes sails not set as moveable ballast, there is nothing in the second sentence which excludes moveable ballast. (which is defined in the equipment rules as a type of ballast.)

Moveable ballast is not ballast which may be moved without breaking a rule, it is ballast which it is possible to move. And sure you are allowed to move moveable ballast in the race as long as you don't do so for the purposed of altering trim or stability.
you can move the anchor to kedge, but you can't move it to trim the boat.

.

#110 JohnMB

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:02 PM

before you move any ballast, a question to be asked is "IS THE BOAT RATED WITH MOVEABLE BALLAST ?"

if the answer is NO then you can't move anything that can act as ballast and all the convoluted debate about RRS does not mean a thing

just thought i'd point that out...

cheers,


I would agree with this you cant move anything that can act as ballast for the purpose of altering trim or stability.
you can move if for any activity associated with its function

you cant move the anchor on every tack, you cant reposition that big box of tools to the high side on the high side each tack, You cant carry an 80lb bag of potatoes and move that each time you tack


you can move them as often as you want as long as you are doing it for some reason associated with their function, if you do it to alter the trim or stability of the boat... and you put them in a specific place for the purpose of altering trim or stability then the count as moveable ballast, and unless the SI's say otherwise (which many do) you cant move them around to alter the trim or stability of the boat.


Classes which allow moveable ballast to be used have class rules which change R51 to allow you to move moveable ballast to alter the trim or stability of the boat, as do races.,

here what the syndey hobart SI's include
Sydney Hobart 2011 SI's

35.3 Changes to RRS
.........
RRS 51: A boat with movable or variable ballast (within the meaning of those terms in the Special Regulations) may move that ballast for the purpose of changing trim or stability.


but of course according to DW that's totally unnecessary because all we have to do is assume that R51 doesn't actually mean moveable ballast when it says Ballast.

#111 no shoes

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:32 PM

Okay from my point of view only:

Before expedition and other routing software, just a couple of years ago for most boats, there was visual, radar and knowing your competion.
On Blue Blazes, we don't run radar because of the weight and energy consumption. So we rely on visual and knowing the sailing tendencies of our competors.

This is a 5 to 7 night race.

It's likely that after two nights the fleet is pretty spread out. Once the fleet is spread out is when we like to make a move. We make these moves based on the conditions we are seeing and what we think we know about the personalities and capabilities of our competion.

I guess with the tracking, it takes a lot of that away. That really changes the whole game. If you are going to make fundamental changes to the game that's cool, just be ware of unintended consequences.

I know that expedition has a way to have low bandwidth info sent to to the fleet. It also has a way for me to email Nick or any other on shore weather guy. Should we say that's just the way it is now? Like it or not.

Maybe I'm getting older, but I look at navigators like 7070 who by his profile is 21 years old. That's great, congratulations on being a navigator. But no offense you haven't lived long enough to have sailed as many miles and in as many long distance races to have a history to tell us how common something is or is not in ocean sailboat racing.

When you have many races under your belt you have some things you know that the other guys don't. If the next generation of navigators can track us from 35 miles behind us and just let the guys in front be the canary in the coal mine, what does he learn about the course? What does learn about his competition? What knowledge will he pass on to the next generation?

PAC cup, PV, islands race, ensenada, the other cabo race, are all races that do not allow the use of the tracker to preserve the style of ocean racing that we have here.

In the interest of safety, we carry the tracker. My mom loves it. But it should not be used by the boats on the course. Certainly not if the si's don't permit it.

7070, come sailing with us sometime. We are fun. Sorry again about attributing the j/35 stuff to you.

#112 JohnMB

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:35 PM

Here's what the PV SI's say

1.9 RRS 51 (Movable Ballast) and RRS 52 (Manual Power) are modified as follows:
1.9.1 The movement of sails not in use while racing is allowed. However all gear and sails not being flown must remain within a boat's lifelines.
1.9.2 RRS 51 Movable Ballast and RRS 52 Manual Power are modified to permit powered winches and the positioning of hull appendages, specifically adjustable keels, or water ballast by hydraulic or electric power only on boats so designed and so rated by the Rating Authority. All powered systems shall be capable of manual operation if powered systems are inoperable. All other boats shall comply with RRS 51 and RRS 52.
1.9.3 Movable ballast systems designed and rated for the boat (excluding canting ballast strut and bulb) including reservoirs, pipes, tubes, tackle, etc. shall be positioned inside the hull and shall be firmly and indefectibly integrated with the structure of the boat. Movable ballast shall only be used within such systems and shall be seawater only, to the exclusion of all other liquids.


again all totally unnecessary?
are these guys all fools, don't they understand that all of this is allowed by R51 anyway, we just have to read it the way we want to....?? really?

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples out there

#113 CrushDigital

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:47 PM

Okay from my point of view only:

Before expedition and other routing software, just a couple of years ago for most boats, there was visual, radar and knowing your competion.
On Blue Blazes, we don't run radar because of the weight and energy consumption. So we rely on visual and knowing the sailing tendencies of our competors.

This is a 5 to 7 night race.

It's likely that after two nights the fleet is pretty spread out. Once the fleet is spread out is when we like to make a move. We make these moves based on the conditions we are seeing and what we think we know about the personalities and capabilities of our competion.

I guess with the tracking, it takes a lot of that away. That really changes the whole game. If you are going to make fundamental changes to the game that's cool, just be ware of unintended consequences.

I know that expedition has a way to have low bandwidth info sent to to the fleet. It also has a way for me to email Nick or any other on shore weather guy. Should we say that's just the way it is now? Like it or not.

Maybe I'm getting older, but I look at navigators like 7070 who by his profile is 21 years old. That's great, congratulations on being a navigator. But no offense you haven't lived long enough to have sailed as many miles and in as many long distance races to have a history to tell us how common something is or is not in ocean sailboat racing.

When you have many races under your belt you have some things you know that the other guys don't. If the next generation of navigators can track us from 35 miles behind us and just let the guys in front be the canary in the coal mine, what does he learn about the course? What does learn about his competition? What knowledge will he pass on to the next generation?

PAC cup, PV, islands race, ensenada, the other cabo race, are all races that do not allow the use of the tracker to preserve the style of ocean racing that we have here.

In the interest of safety, we carry the tracker. My mom loves it. But it should not be used by the boats on the course. Certainly not if the si's don't permit it.

7070, come sailing with us sometime. We are fun. Sorry again about attributing the j/35 stuff to you.


Just ot be clear you're argument boils down to:

People can't learn things about the course or their competitors from a source of information that provides information on both of those things because that source is new-fangled and not your old, grizzled, sea-salted style. At the same time, the things competitor can learn, you don't want them to know because it takes away your secret sauce.

IfThe second point I find especially interesting because if the rest of the fleet is so spread out that the only way they will know you "made a move" is with the tracker, it would stand to reason that their going to be far enough away that chasing you down would almost certainly be foolhardy. That is unless you are so superior to every other navigator on the west coast, with such in depth knowledge of the Pacific Ocean, that chasing you and hoping for the best is the only way they can hope for a win.

Now unless your name is Stan Honey,and I don't think we can make that claim, especially given his far-reaching embrace of technology, this all smacks of technophobia just as the arguments against GPS, LORAN and everything else before turned out to be.

#114 us7070

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:57 PM

Okay from my point of view only:

Before expedition and other routing software, just a couple of years ago for most boats, there was visual, radar and knowing your competion.
On Blue Blazes, we don't run radar because of the weight and energy consumption. So we rely on visual and knowing the sailing tendencies of our competors.

This is a 5 to 7 night race.

It's likely that after two nights the fleet is pretty spread out. Once the fleet is spread out is when we like to make a move. We make these moves based on the conditions we are seeing and what we think we know about the personalities and capabilities of our competion.

I guess with the tracking, it takes a lot of that away. That really changes the whole game. If you are going to make fundamental changes to the game that's cool, just be ware of unintended consequences.

I know that expedition has a way to have low bandwidth info sent to to the fleet. It also has a way for me to email Nick or any other on shore weather guy. Should we say that's just the way it is now? Like it or not.

Maybe I'm getting older, but I look at navigators like 7070 who by his profile is 21 years old. That's great, congratulations on being a navigator. But no offense you haven't lived long enough to have sailed as many miles and in as many long distance races to have a history to tell us how common something is or is not in ocean sailboat racing.

When you have many races under your belt you have some things you know that the other guys don't. If the next generation of navigators can track us from 35 miles behind us and just let the guys in front be the canary in the coal mine, what does he learn about the course? What does learn about his competition? What knowledge will he pass on to the next generation?

PAC cup, PV, islands race, ensenada, the other cabo race, are all races that do not allow the use of the tracker to preserve the style of ocean racing that we have here.

In the interest of safety, we carry the tracker. My mom loves it. But it should not be used by the boats on the course. Certainly not if the si's don't permit it.

7070, come sailing with us sometime. We are fun. Sorry again about attributing the j/35 stuff to you.



i'm not 21...

nor am i really taking a position on whether or not looking at the tracking data _should_ be allowed.

i understand your position, and it has some merit.

i was just saying that it is permitted in most races, and is a normal part of offshore racing today.


now before someone accuses me again of being soft on cheaters, i will state again that anyone who looked at the tracking data should RAF.

#115 DA-WOODY

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:39 PM

comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

Posted Image


so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

#116 Inter 20

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:12 PM

comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

Posted Image


so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.

#117 DA-WOODY

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:22 PM


comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

Posted Image


so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.


so your saying counter clockwise

#118 Inter 20

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:39 PM



comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

Posted Image


so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.


so your saying counter clockwise

It's now clear why you chose photography over writing. Good job! Northern or southern hemisphere?

#119 CrushDigital

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:30 PM


comes a time in SA where every debait becomes like

Posted Image


so is it swimming clockwise or counterclockwise

Debait meaning removing the worm from the hook. In your case letting the rule breakers off the hook.


No one, not a single person, in this thread has argued for letting rule breakers off the hook, it's unanimous that they should RAF.

The only things that have been up for debate are whether or not it's a silly rule and just what exactly RRS 51 has to say about sails.

#120 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:38 PM

I have a few points:

1) Race organizers should promote enforcing penalties against rule breakers.
2) Race organizers should not write rules into S.I.s that are not enforceable.
3) Mini racing has enforceable rules that prohibit downloadable information from getting to the competitors. (They prohibit any communication equipment aboard except epirb, and short range vhf)
4) Most modern ocean racers want to carry onboard computers and transceivers that they want to use to send and receive all kinds of information.
5) With said capability aboard, there is no way to enforce a communication ban for certain (banned) types of information.

#121 Inter 20

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:10 PM

CD, you're right. However, I felt that some posts were trying to steer the topic away from it's intended course. I'm not sure why. All of us who love this sport don't like this situation. My hope that the end result of these discussions will be to prevent this from reoccurring.

#122 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:38 PM

What's the intended course of this discussion?

1) Voluntary RAF?

2) Anonymous ratting out?

3) Named ratting out?

4) PRO inquisition?

I don't think any of these are likely. I agree with you that it's a bad situation. Problem is you need to separate the "rule breaking" with actual advantage gained by said rule breaking. Was an advantage gained by breaking the rule? Was it tangible?
What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ.

#123 glorydaze443

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:45 PM

What's the intended course of this discussion?

1) Voluntary RAF?

2) Anonymous ratting out?

3) Named ratting out?

4) PRO inquisition?

I don't think any of these are likely. I agree with you that it's a bad situation. Problem is you need to separate the "rule breaking" with actual advantage gained by said rule breaking. Was an advantage gained by breaking the rule? Was it tangible?
What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ.


I'm sure I misunderstood, but are you saying there isn't a case for DSQ if there is no tangible gain

#124 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:58 PM

What I said was:

"What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ."

Is that clear now?

#125 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 09:23 PM

The S.I.s contain an unenforceable rule. The PRO probably recognizes that the rule can't be enforced without playing u-tube whack-a-mole. That's not a consistent method of enforcement.

If you can prove there was an advantage gained...with evidence...make a case.

#126 Inter 20

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:06 PM

Many rules in SIs don't address any inherent potential for gain but if broken still are subject to some form of penalty. I don't think one can only use gain or no gain as the determining factor in validating the violation of a SI rule. A rule is a rule unless they are called guidelines. Rules are black and white while guidelines are gray. I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport.
I don't expect any DSQs. A RAF may happen but don't count on it. Keeping this SI conflict from reoccurring should be our goal. The past really can't be changed but we can easily correct this going forward.
Lastly, if a rule isn't easily enforceable doesn't neccessarily make it a flawed rule.

#127 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:19 PM

"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

#128 NorCalLaser

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:20 PM



I don't have a dog in this fight but I do know there is proof of yellowbrick monitoring within the youtube videos from the race...wink wink


is it this (at 2 min)?
Video


heh heh heh :o


we have indisputable evidence of Karl Kwok confessing to breaking the rule. will he RAF?

#129 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:30 PM

Karl's the guy with the power winches. Don't you think he would say bent, but not broken? Or, wait the rules say he is entitled use power winches, but not his comms system to follow yellow brick. He will surely see the distinction, and bow to the wisdom of the S.I.'s author! After all once it's in black and white there is no question of fairness, only of the letter of the law...

#130 glorydaze443

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:49 PM

What I said was:

"What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ."

Is that clear now?



So a boat can break any rule it wants, and if there is no tangible gain, it can't be DSQ'd

#131 haz

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:56 PM

"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

Really ... what's the point of an internet forum like this if we can't discuss the problems?

It would have been an interesting protest to file. Unless you get get a witness from the crew of a boat that looked at the tracker to admit that, you couldn't provide enough evidence to bother with a protest.

And, for the most part, nobody in this thread has really drawn down on any particular boat. KK brought the attention on himself.

What do you think someone should do if they accessed YB Tracking during the race? Are you saying if they feel that breaking that particular rule was harmless, it's OK to just slide?

This really is just a discussion concerning integrity. It is a self enforcing sport, as you point out. And a rule's a rule, no matter how you feel about it.

#132 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:56 PM


What I said was:

"What was the tangible gain? If you can prove that, you have a case for DSQ."

Is that clear now?



So a boat can break any rule it wants, and if there is no tangible gain, it can't be DSQ'd


You said that, I didn't.

#133 DA-WOODY

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:05 PM

this is ritch

an Inter 20 and a laser (pair of socks) ranting on about the PV race that included neither

swimming laps and getting the same new idea to share each time round

you 2 are a perfect match like you were joined at the hip (or more likely the lips)

I just swam another lap and re-thought this idea


as for the Damning YouTube Video

what was the context of the filming

did "Bo Jest" ?????

I didn't hear him say we were tracking the tracking

he said something to the effect "Something went down" and the only way to know the others was using YB = Did NOT Say They DID use it !!!!!!


like saying the Breeze was 28 true then died and the only way we could kept moving was to run the engine = [WOODY-Translate] "We Just Facking Sat There"

What he said was NOT an answer to a Question asked

If you want to take some words spoken by someone from another country (who may group words differently)

and then put it with your question - it's entertainment at best

"If" You want to get to the bottom of an issue Just Ask the Guy what you want to know



have either of "YOU" an interest (vested or not)

State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

by anonymous posers on an international internet forum

WE by now know who you are talking about and what you are accusing them of having done

If you have any media savvy you will know that is a dangerous route to take

as the intent is ridicule rather than jurisprudence Posted Image


Everyone is in agreement except the 2 of "You" as you are here for something completely different = vengance

At least that is what it looks like to me Posted Image










Posted Image

#134 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:05 PM


"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

Really ... what's the point of an internet forum like this if we can't discuss the problems?

It would have been an interesting protest to file. Unless you get get a witness from the crew of a boat that looked at the tracker to admit that, you couldn't provide enough evidence to bother with a protest.

And, for the most part, nobody in this thread has really drawn down on any particular boat. KK brought the attention on himself.

What do you think someone should do if they accessed YB Tracking during the race? Are you saying if they feel that breaking that particular rule was harmless, it's OK to just slide?

This really is just a discussion concerning integrity. It is a self enforcing sport, as you point out. And a rule's a rule, no matter how you feel about it.


I am saying that the people who broke the rule feel that breaking that rule is harmless. If someone wants to impress upon them that it harms someone, they should make their point. I don't think what I have read in this forum does that.

#135 haz

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:13 PM



"I'm not aware of any guidelines that govern our sport." (Inter 20)

I think our sport's guideline is self enforcement. If you feel that a rule is broken, withdraw, or file a protest, don't call it out on a popular forum.

Really ... what's the point of an internet forum like this if we can't discuss the problems?

It would have been an interesting protest to file. Unless you get get a witness from the crew of a boat that looked at the tracker to admit that, you couldn't provide enough evidence to bother with a protest.

And, for the most part, nobody in this thread has really drawn down on any particular boat. KK brought the attention on himself.

What do you think someone should do if they accessed YB Tracking during the race? Are you saying if they feel that breaking that particular rule was harmless, it's OK to just slide?

This really is just a discussion concerning integrity. It is a self enforcing sport, as you point out. And a rule's a rule, no matter how you feel about it.


I am saying that the people who broke the rule feel that breaking that rule is harmless. If someone wants to impress upon them that it harms someone, they should make their point. I don't think what I have read in this forum does that.

I've got a problem with the 'cheaters' provocation in the title ... it's inflammatory, and this site hardly needs that to explode into nonsense!

I also have a problem with 'the people who broke the rule feel that breaking that rule is harmless'. Where does THAT slope end? I was half a leg ahead and barely touched that mark ...

Someone said it earlier (I paraphrase): I'd be WAY more impressed with somebody stepping up and doing the right thing than I am by somebody winning the race.

#136 jhc

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:32 PM

So, what's the right thing?

Making a de facto statement of dis-regard for a rule they consider superfluous? (like the boston tea party)

Or, giving up an 'entitled' position to stand up for the status quo? (like rumsfeld: "mistakes were made")

I think to cry foul, the point needs to be made that enforcing the rule benefits the group. The racers. That the racers have a say. As far as I can tell the racers have spoken with their silence. No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

#137 edelweis

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:43 PM

No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.
Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

#138 Inter 20

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:42 AM


No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.
Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.

#139 DA-WOODY

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:44 AM



No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.
Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.




State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

keep us posted Posted Image

#140 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:55 AM




No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.
Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.




State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

keep us posted Posted Image


This is relevent. If one does not file a protest when one knows someone has infringed - then that is an infringement.

Attached File  basic principle.PNG   43.54K   13 downloads

#141 DA-WOODY

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:59 AM





No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.
Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.




State your Real name - State your case - Tell us why you didn't properly file a protest

AND send a "Proper Question" to the person who is possibly being slandered (If he didn't view YB underway)

keep us posted Posted Image


This is relevent. If one does not file a protest when one knows someone has infringed - then that is an infringement.

Attached File  basic principle.PNG   43.54K   13 downloads


No

Everyone picks and chooses their Favorite Rules to Ignore or Call-Out others for Ignoring

Pretty Funny in this case with a finger pointing from each hand Posted Image

#142 haz

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:06 AM

Seems to me that to have filed a protest you'd have needed to have reasonably conclusive evidence within the protest time limit. Sometimes these things come to light after that window's closed.

These situations are instructive to tear apart and get different viewpoints on. It's obvious quite a few people feel 'no harm, no foul', other, not so much ... no surprises there, pretty diverse bunch here.

Haz

#143 DA-WOODY

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:08 AM

Question:

Concerning an alledeged Violation of the SI's of a Past Race

What's the Statute of Intimidations Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image









Posted Image


#144 I'moutahere

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:10 AM

No

Everyone picks and chooses their Favorite Rules to Ignore or Call-Out others for Ignoring

Pretty Funny in this case with a finger pointing from each hand Posted Image


SA is certainly used regularly by people to bad mouth other competitors who have probably beaten them in a race, and accuse them of cheating, but WILL not protest, or have no grounds for protesting. Best done anonymously. That way you don't have to produce any evidence.


EDIT...... Cheating could be considered a gross breach of sportsmanship, therefore a report from anyone who knows the facts could be lodged with the event jury in accordance with RRS69. There is no time limit on that report like there is on protests.

#145 edelweis

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:24 AM



No protest, despite evidence. No harm is perceived. No ruling to be made.

Amen.
Maybe Woody can call the ed to close this thread?

So you believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with it.


My bad - thought irony was obvious without an emoticon.

#146 Folding prop

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:04 PM

My view from a couple thousand miles away is that the SD tribe is circling the wagons. Who and what are they hiding? Smells like a dirty barn. What's with this dude who rides in a jumbo bathtub toy? You left coasters are open to all opinions. That's a good thing. Time to watch Izod Indycar from Bama. Check it out.

#147 NorCalLaser

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:22 AM

go away woody

#148 Test

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:32 AM


I don't have a dog in this fight but I do know there is proof of yellowbrick monitoring within the youtube videos from the race...wink wink


is it this (at 2 min)?
Video

"..... as it got dark we can only follow the on the tracker ....." Said with a big smile -- The fist smile during the interview. Just me, but from the body language of the gentleman in the interview, I got the impression he knew he was breaking the rules using and electronic tracker to keep himself informed of the fleet's position.

#149 jhc

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:01 AM



I don't have a dog in this fight but I do know there is proof of yellowbrick monitoring within the youtube videos from the race...wink wink


is it this (at 2 min)?
Video

"..... as it got dark we can only follow the on the tracker ....." Said with a big smile -- The fist smile during the interview. Just me, but from the body language of the gentleman in the interview, I got the impression he knew he was breaking the rules using and electronic tracker to keep himself informed of the fleet's position.


No, bending...

#150 NoStrings

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 07:58 AM

Golf is loaded with "unenforceable rules". You're just expected to play by them. If you don't, you run out of friends and playing partners pretty quickly. Integrity isn't a "slippery slope", it's a cliff.

#151 DA-WOODY

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:31 AM

I hear all owners received *something post race

yet not brought up once


* hint there are 26 of them in the Queens Language Posted Image

Hmmmm

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

#152 Nick Farrell

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:25 PM

WHAT A CROCK OF SHIFE !!

Only YellowBrick would have an interest in bringing up this matter (to make its self sound better than it is/was)


We really didn't have any interest in bringing this up... it's caused us a load of grief, and we're quite busy enough with our jobs to do that sort of thing...!

Nick @ YB

#153 DA-WOODY

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:42 PM


WHAT A CROCK OF SHIFE !!

Only YellowBrick would have an interest in bringing up this matter (to make its self sound better than it is/was)


We really didn't have any interest in bringing this up... it's caused us a load of grief, and we're quite busy enough with our jobs to do that sort of thing...!

Nick @ YB


Apologies as deserved !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's the problem with people hiding behind sock puppets on the grassy knoll of vengance

MUCH better for someone to just "MAN-UP" with whatever the issue (if they are a Man as Jenner says they are Not)

#154 Nick Farrell

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:58 PM

Apologies as deserved !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



No worries Posted Image

#155 DA-WOODY

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:05 PM



Apologies as deserved !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



No worries Posted Image





just one more thing - have you posted the nOOb-requisite Tit's Yet Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

And Welcome !!! Posted Image

#156 Inter 20

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:44 PM

I hear all owners received *something post race

yet not brought up once


* hint there are 26 of them in the Queens Language Posted Image

Hmmmm

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I am sure they are on the way to Shred-Ex. Kind of like what happens to jury duty notices. If they were sent via email, those Delete buttons certainly took a pounding. As Sargeant Schultz said, "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"

#157 DA-WOODY

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:48 PM


I hear all owners received *something post race

yet not brought up once


* hint there are 26 of them in the Queens Language Posted Image

Hmmmm

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I am sure they are on the way to Shred-Ex. Kind of like what happens to jury duty notices. If they were sent via email, those Delete buttons certainly took a pounding. As Sargeant Schultz said, "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!"


It's better to remain quiet and thought a fool than to speak thus removing all doubt.

#158 Inter 20

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:24 PM

I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!

#159 DA-WOODY

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:22 PM

I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!


The chance to give your real name rather than "Star of another Puppet Show"

or would your Real Name bring less Cred than a sock puppet ?

#160 Inter 20

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:10 AM

Your constant personal attacks on me indicates that you're trying to hide something. It's called the art of misdirection. Is it SDYC's reputation you're protecting? Or some of your sailing buddies? I thought that you would want this mess cleaned up instead of being swept under the rug.

#161 Ship o' Fools

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:15 AM


I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!


The chance to give your real name rather than "Star of another Puppet Show"

or would your Real Name bring less Cred than a sock puppet ?


"Sock Puppet" - that's funny. Also, Dennis, why are you so wrapped up in this thread. You are like a dog with a bone who won't give it up and/or a broken record. Did you bet on a boat in the race and are now afraid you bookie wants his money back?

#162 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:35 AM

Your constant personal attacks on me indicates that you're trying to hide something. It's called the art of misdirection. Is it SDYC's reputation you're protecting? Or some of your sailing buddies? I thought that you would want this mess cleaned up instead of being swept under the rug.


HA I'm attacking a nameless sock puppet Posted Image Posted Image



let's put this into perspective

you create a sock puppet and think that you then appear to the world as

Posted Image



when in reality you are known as nothing more than a hiding sorry sock at best

Posted Image



and posting things against real people while hiding behind a sock puppet is no better than just sniffing other sock puppets Sock-Arse

Posted Image



Want some respect?

Post your Real Name and you shall be given All Due Respect

or just ride the angry bus with DoRag who is more defining in his/her anger and at least knows how to long-board a J-105

#163 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:40 AM



I'm not a technology genius by any stretch of the imagination but getting over 2000 satellite hits to YB during the race period seems rather suspicious if indeed this is really true. Maybe it was some rich guy finding an expensive way to impress his date by watching the race on his Sat phone. There's the possibility that the VOR guys were bored and decided to follow the PV race. It's the commercial fishermen out at Tanner Banks. Drug smugglers in pangas trying to avoid detection. I know,it was the escort boat,that's it. Problem solved. This finally may be the smoking gun that will initiate the RAFs to materialize. Come on Woodster, what ya got for me now!


The chance to give your real name rather than "Star of another Puppet Show"

or would your Real Name bring less Cred than a sock puppet ?


"Sock Puppet" - that's funny. Also, Dennis, why are you so wrapped up in this thread. You are like a dog with a bone who won't give it up and/or a broken record. Did you bet on a boat in the race and are now afraid you bookie wants his money back?


No

I just have a distaste for sock puppets that hide and sling shife at real people

If this thread started

"I'm __________ and I have proof that _______________ did ___________________ and I think _____________ should be done"

it would be much different

Yet still not the best way to handle it till all else failed Posted Image

My bet was who would come in last and the Check Cleared the Bank just fine Posted Image

#164 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:57 AM

Posted Image






Posted Image








Posted Image


#165 Inter 20

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 03:38 AM

Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."

#166 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:24 AM

Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."


so your getting close to ending the disgracing of sock puppets in the respect of your "Uncle" (to whom I gave a Cap "U" yet you did not )

Do you belong to the SP-CLU (like the ACLU but for sock puppets???) Ahhhh You are the 99% = Mass - just like like DoRag ?

except DoRag knows how to Long-Board a J-105 and to the best of my knowledge has NEVER asked for "sock-puppet respect" Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image




I REALLY could care less if you vindicate yourself or not

still, you should only hope others might heap you in with DoRag (at best)

(Sorry DoRag just tryin to make a point, no offence to your abusive sock puppet persona intended Posted Image)

I'm sure that if you think anything positive about your self you won't be able to tie yourself to this sock puppet in public

PLEASE Keep in mind - you have posted as a Troll "Not Yourself"

not saying that is any better for you - Jus Sayin Posted Image

#167 Folding prop

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:22 PM

Darn!!!! DoRag and Da-Woody..... not clones? "The HORROR" //-(:-E)-00C---

#168 Beckett

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:37 PM

Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."


This thread is so nutso, including the players. I'm so confused. It's a combination of Judge Judy, Dr, Phill, the Muppets, Fox news and Shindler's list meet the sailing world. The Inter joker standing on a doc somewhere getting info from the Mother ship that they are loosing because all the other MFer's are cheating. Inter & Wood mud wrestling and slinging like serious cock fighters as if they were arguing over something real. Time to change the channel. Boring. Maybe Fantasy Island is on.
Attached File  His dudeness.jpg   35.58K   2 downloads

Where's the fuckn money Lebowski?

#169 Inter 20

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:28 PM


Enough of the puppet crap. My uncle entertained children with puppets made from scraps at a concentration camp. He never made it out. I know it's cool internet lingo but " Please let it go."


This thread is so nutso, including the players. I'm so confused. It's a combination of Judge Judy, Dr, Phill, the Muppets, Fox news and Shindler's list meet the sailing world. The Inter joker standing on a doc somewhere getting info from the Mother ship that they are loosing because all the other MFer's are cheating. Inter & Wood mud wrestling and slinging like serious cock fighters as if they were arguing over something real. Time to change the channel. Boring. Maybe Fantasy Island is on.
Attached File  His dudeness.jpg   35.58K   2 downloads

Where's the fuckn money Lebowski?

Your antiquated cloaking device has sustained a major malfunction. Make a call to the warranty department for a replacement.

#170 Folding prop

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:53 PM

I go work in the fields for a few days, come back, and what happens? Nothing! Anybody drop? No. Why not? Just a bunch of chickens I guess. Not the egg layin' kind either. You know what happens to chickens that don't lay eggs? They get sent to California to become some rich guy's pet. Some even learn to sail and race to PV. So why did the chickens cross the yellowbrick road? Because they thought they wouldn't get caught.

#171 DA-WOODY

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:48 PM

I go work in the fields for a few days, come back, and what happens? Nothing! Anybody drop? No. Why not? Just a bunch of chickens I guess. Not the egg layin' kind either. You know what happens to chickens that don't lay eggs? They get sent to California to become some rich guy's pet. Some even learn to sail and race to PV. So why did the chickens cross the yellowbrick road? Because they thought they wouldn't get caught.


it's "Dirty-Sock" Laundry-Day again I see Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

Don't forget the Spin-Cycle Posted Image

#172 Inter 20

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:19 PM

Attached File  EVX7CAWRLC2RCA7I2MNLCA95GM7JCA8DCS1NCAIOVW76CAHOE0JFCAFNSMHVCA024ICMCA1NWI8ICAZ1NPYDCAMT8SC1CAPJJ70NCAR1VSVKCAVRW45LCA2WES8GCA4EGP0NCA4SG6TKCAI4UIIZCA4TNPQ6.jpg   10.68K   2 downloads Don't you just hate it when you fall flat on your face.

#173 I'moutahere

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:28 PM

As a couple of people just won't let this thread go away - a question for someone who was in the race (or might know the answer) - did the tracker show any info from boats such as wind speed, direction, course, boat speed etc?

#174 Ryley

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:12 PM

Golf is loaded with "unenforceable rules". You're just expected to play by them. If you don't, you run out of friends and playing partners pretty quickly. Integrity isn't a "slippery slope", it's a cliff.


This.

#175 Kirwan

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:50 PM

At the risk of a thread hijack, let me describe a hypothetical situation, for everyone to think about how they would react:

You've just finished a distance race, and are enjoying the 'after party'. You find yourself at a table of another boat in your class, someone you've just raced against, but are now sharing some camradarie. The subject of rules comes up, and you say "sure was frustrating, not being able to log on and find everyone's position", and the whole table goes quiet. The crew gives each other nervous glances, some suddenly decide their shoes need retying, but the captain smiles, laughs and belts out 'YEA, wasn't that a pain!"

What do you do? What can you do?

- Call them on it, and make them answer a direct question, watching for signs of a lie?
- Hurl an insult (and your drink) at them and leave?
- slink off and 'prank' (sink?) their boat?
- Start a formal protest with the RC?
- Decide that if the rules don't apply to them, then they don't apply to you either?
- Campaign to get the rules changed for the next time?
- Go whine on an internet forum?
- Quit racing and buy a 'sunseeker'; go slowly and drink heavily?


Me, I've left racing programs that were too full of just those sorts of azzholes. Integrity is more important to me than winning.



Disclaimer: I live in SD, and have met Woody on occasion - he's not as crazy as many of you would think. Other than that, I don't know anything about this race other than what's in this very thread. I really did make up the scenario, but wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing started like that.

#176 DA-WOODY

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:33 AM

At the risk of a thread hijack, let me describe a hypothetical situation, for everyone to think about how they would react:

You've just finished a distance race, and are enjoying the 'after party'. You find yourself at a table of another boat in your class, someone you've just raced against, but are now sharing some camradarie. The subject of rules comes up, and you say "sure was frustrating, not being able to log on and find everyone's position", and the whole table goes quiet. The crew gives each other nervous glances, some suddenly decide their shoes need retying, but the captain smiles, laughs and belts out 'YEA, wasn't that a pain!"

What do you do? What can you do?

- Call them on it, and make them answer a direct question, watching for signs of a lie?
- Hurl an insult (and your drink) at them and leave?
- slink off and 'prank' (sink?) their boat?
- Start a formal protest with the RC?
- Decide that if the rules don't apply to them, then they don't apply to you either?
- Campaign to get the rules changed for the next time?
- Go whine on an internet forum?
- Quit racing and buy a 'sunseeker'; go slowly and drink heavily?


Me, I've left racing programs that were too full of just those sorts of azzholes. Integrity is more important to me than winning.



Disclaimer: I live in SD, and have met Woody on occasion - he's not as crazy as many of you would think. Other than that, I don't know anything about this race other than what's in this very thread. I really did make up the scenario, but wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing started like that.


It might seam crazy Posted Image But in that situation,

I would "Just Ask the Captain" whatever question it was that I was wondering

It would be the perfect time and place to get the issue resolved

How many times does one need to tap-dance around the same subject before they feel like they won something

Obviously they didn't Win the PV race Posted Image

as the entertainment value of this thread had a 1/2 life of 4 posts

and given the fact that it's swirling the loo once again I thought some mood music would be nice:




#177 Folding prop

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 05:55 PM

Just got a text from a sailing bud in Newport Beach and he said that one of the PV class winners has submitted a RAF to SDYC. Could this be true? He wouldn't name the boat even after I pressed him. Maybe he's full of bullbutter. Is there a time limit on RAFs? Does the race sponsor have to accept RAFs? Looks like the chickens have finally come home to roost after having crossed the yellowbrick road.

Epilog... I'm getting my stopwatch ready. I am going to measure the time from when I hit ADD REPLY to when some San Diego dude shoots me down. Here goes...

#178 DA-WOODY

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

. *Is there a time limit on RAFs?
Epilog... I'm getting my stopwatch ready. I am going to measure the time from when I hit ADD REPLY to when some San Diego dude shoots me down. Here goes...


*YES - You can not RAF until you have finished

So I guess that would mean a bunch of sock puppets shall never be able to RAF from beating this dead horse Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#179 Inter 20

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:02 PM

Just got a text from a sailing bud in Newport Beach and he said that one of the PV class winners has submitted a RAF to SDYC. Could this be true? He wouldn't name the boat even after I pressed him. Maybe he's full of bullbutter. Is there a time limit on RAFs? Does the race sponsor have to accept RAFs? Looks like the chickens have finally come home to roost after having crossed the yellowbrick road.

Epilog... I'm getting my stopwatch ready. I am going to measure the time from when I hit ADD REPLY to when some San Diego dude shoots me down. Here goes...

A sundial might have been a better choice than a stopwatch. Being a supposed puppet makes me wonder why I haven't heard about this rumor. Some on this thread think I have more strings attached to me than a guitar factory. That is not true. I started this thread with the idea of exposing a potential problem in our sport but it seems to me that you're now just making stuff up. Looking at some of your past posts, it appears you don't like DoRag and Jesposito very much. I'll give you a pass, for now. Most Anarchists will agree that they are annoying at best. If you really know more, break with it. I'll add a picture since you don't seem to know how.

#180 sumpin

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:07 PM

I will wait for jesposito and D Rag to clear this whole mess up. Giving the spring thaw coming, soon they should be out of their waders and onto more seasonal activities.
Bolt action or auto, not sure which

#181 Blow the guy 1

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:41 AM


Life is full of rules. Most make sense and a few obviously do not. Just because a rule may make no sense in someone's view, shouldn't justify them to break it and then get away with it. It becomes a slippery slope. What is the next rule to be ignored? "I'll run the engine if boatspeed drops below 6 knots when nobody can see or hear us." "This sail is just a little bigger, it's not that big of a deal." "Those lead bricks? How did they get there?" "The prop was there when we left the dock." "We touched the mark, we really didn't hit it." Does this selective morality sound familiar?


Repeat Offender..really don't go there. We know you are the real life sock puppet for someone with the moral antennae of the average Artic musk ox, prone to flipping people off on the race course, offensive confrontations, and excessive use of the N Word. Talk about selective morality. She takes the cake. Blaming others because she lost a yacht race. UGH. Typical but uncalled for..


Wow, Janer. What a pompous windbag asshole you are. Your post had no intellectual point; just a chance for you to spew vitriolic personal insults.

#182 ojfd

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:49 AM

Is there a time limit on RAFs? Does the race sponsor have to accept RAFs?


Race sponsor has nothing to do with RRS, it's not their business, even if they think that it is.
As to the time limit on RAF, search SA for Monica Wilson / Nancy Rios, in that case 5 months were OK.

#183 Jguy

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:56 PM

Nothing received at this time......

#184 walterbshaffer

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:58 PM

Just got a text from a sailing bud in Newport Beach and he said that one of the PV class winners has submitted a RAF to SDYC. Could this be true? He wouldn't name the boat even after I pressed him. Maybe he's full of bullbutter. Is there a time limit on RAFs? Does the race sponsor have to accept RAFs? Looks like the chickens have finally come home to roost after having crossed the yellowbrick road.

Epilog... I'm getting my stopwatch ready. I am going to measure the time from when I hit ADD REPLY to when some San Diego dude shoots me down. Here goes...

I don't think there is a time limit on RAfs. From a practical standpoint there might very well be, but suppose you found out the prior owner added a shoe to the keel when you haul it 2 years later? You might very well notify & RAF to avoid allegations of cheating.

I could be way off here but a RAF should be a badge of honor, not an exemplar of dishonesty.




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