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Russell Coutts talks to Zerogradinord


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#1 Zerogradinord.it

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:27 PM

Hi guys,
we have an interview shooted today with Russell Coutts, here in Cascais where the RC44 are racing.
He talks about America's Cup situation.
Best.

Mauro Melandri
Zerogradinord.it



#2 Te Kooti

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:31 PM

Hi guys,
we have an interview shooted today with Russell Coutts, here in Cascais where the RC44 are racing.
Mauro Melandri
Zerogradinord.it





Kia ora Mauro,

Will you be in Naples for the AC45 festivities?

TK

#3 Zerogradinord.it

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:37 PM


Hi guys,
we have an interview shooted today with Russell Coutts, here in Cascais where the RC44 are racing.
Mauro Melandri
Zerogradinord.it





Kia ora Mauro,

Will you be in Naples for the AC45 festivities?

TK


Yes, I will be in Naples starting from april 6th and also in Venice.

MM

#4 Xlot

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:42 PM

Quite interesting from 3:50 onwards. But I've heard a sharper delivery in the past, his justification for selecting the 72 (so it would come out well on TV) is just lame.

On a lighter side, it's obvious Wussell had not read ZG's comment to the latest LE interview:

Ellison's words emphasize a basic fact: the 34th America's Cup, as it is now structured, does not work. The event has no participants, no sponsors, no audience. In other words, it has no future



#5 ~Stingray~

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:47 PM

Quite interesting from 3:50 onwards. But I've heard a sharper delivery in the past, his justification for selecting the 72 (so it would come out well on TV) is just lame.

But he found his enthusiasm for the OR72 under construction hard to contain, it's the best part of the interview!

#6 maxmini

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:02 PM

Quite interesting from 3:50 onwards. But I've heard a sharper delivery in the past, his justification for selecting the 72 (so it would come out well on TV) is just lame.

On a lighter side, it's obvious Wussell had not read ZG's comment to the latest LE interview:


Ellison's words emphasize a basic fact: the 34th America's Cup, as it is now structured, does not work. The event has no participants, no sponsors, no audience. In other words, it has no future


Ah yes the great God TV rears its ugly head once again .

#7 RMK

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:10 PM


Quite interesting from 3:50 onwards. But I've heard a sharper delivery in the past, his justification for selecting the 72 (so it would come out well on TV) is just lame.

But he found his enthusiasm for the OR72 under construction hard to contain, it's the best part of the interview!


Agree, he really lit up when talking about the 72. Good interview, thanks ZG

#8 ~HHN92~

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:11 PM

I see strain.

#9 Monster Mash

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:19 PM

Good interview. I didn't see a whole lot of enthusiasm about the status of things, nobody to blame but himself eh?
Kind of a polite way to throw Worth under the bus when he remarked they need nore expertise in his old position. The fact that Barkley is a temporary fill in bodes well for public image. IMO when it comes to public image Barclay brings nothing to the table.
I too am looking forward to July and the launch of the first AC72. My sources B) tell me that its a fairly cookie cutter looking design with all the secret stuff in the foils and wing..

#10 acintel

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:49 PM

Main comments arising from the interview:

- Coutts is constantly using superlatives to qualify the event...he's the only one!
- He expected more teams (so much for Stingray)
- They are looking for a new CEO that knows North American sport. So he fucked up with "Football" Worth, and he's going to repeat the mistake with a baseballer or something.
- His boss would prefer a Cup with smaller boats.

Conclusion, Coutts is one of or the best sailor in the world but a miserable visionary and a miserable businessman.

Why don't you keep sailing for Katusha and leave the AC alone Russell? This is the best you could do for the event.

#11 Xlot

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:11 PM

VS too now - good

#12 Mariner

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:26 PM

I'd love to know if any of you A- hole haters have EVER put your asses as far out on the line as Larry and Russel are doing right now to vault something like this into the future? I'm so fucking sick and tired of the sailing talking wimps out there talking about how miserable and shitty this is.

SO WHAT IF THEY FAIL??? BFD! At least they didn't just do it the way it's always been done just because its always been that way.

At least they will have given everything they have to do for the pinnacle of their sport what they had the opportunuity to, and what they thought would be a great game- changing thing!

All someone needs to do to change it back to the old days is win it. So f'ing bring it if thats what you want.

Till then, wimps, just sit back and enjoy the hating, because you sure as hell are being entertained in a bigger and better way right now with what they're doing than you ever have been in your miserable sailing lives!

#13 Rennmaus

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:35 PM

I'd love to know if any of you A- hole haters have EVER put your asses as far out on the line as Larry and Russel are doing right now to vault something like this into the future? I'm so fucking sick and tired of the sailing talking wimps out there talking about how miserable and shitty this is.

SO WHAT IF THEY FAIL??? BFD! At least they didn't just do it the way it's always been done just because its always been that way.

At least they will have given everything they have to do for the pinnacle of their sport what they had the opportunuity to, and what they thought would be a great game- changing thing!

All someone needs to do to change it back to the old days is win it. So f'ing bring it if thats what you want.

Till then, wimps, just sit back and enjoy the hating, because you sure as hell are being entertained in a bigger and better way right now with what they're doing than you ever have been in your miserable sailing lives!


Exactly, it is not world peace or anything else of significance.



#14 K38BOB

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:58 PM


I'd love to know if any of you A- hole haters have EVER put your asses as far out on the line as Larry and Russel are doing right now to vault something like this into the future? I'm so fucking sick and tired of the sailing talking wimps out there talking about how miserable and shitty this is.

SO WHAT IF THEY FAIL??? BFD! At least they didn't just do it the way it's always been done just because its always been that way.

At least they will have given everything they have to do for the pinnacle of their sport what they had the opportunuity to, and what they thought would be a great game- changing thing!

All someone needs to do to change it back to the old days is win it. So f'ing bring it if thats what you want.

Till then, wimps, just sit back and enjoy the hating, because you sure as hell are being entertained in a bigger and better way right now with what they're doing than you ever have been in your miserable sailing lives!


Exactly, it is not world peace or anything else of significance.


and the best for the fans- OPM !!

#15 SimonN

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:46 PM

I'd love to know if any of you A- hole haters have EVER put your asses as far out on the line as Larry and Russel are doing right now to vault something like this into the future? I'm so fucking sick and tired of the sailing talking wimps out there talking about how miserable and shitty this is.

SO WHAT IF THEY FAIL??? BFD! At least they didn't just do it the way it's always been done just because its always been that way.

At least they will have given everything they have to do for the pinnacle of their sport what they had the opportunuity to, and what they thought would be a great game- changing thing!

All someone needs to do to change it back to the old days is win it. So f'ing bring it if thats what you want.

Till then, wimps, just sit back and enjoy the hating, because you sure as hell are being entertained in a bigger and better way right now with what they're doing than you ever have been in your miserable sailing lives!

Sorry, but it is you who doesn't get it. But to start with, despite the lack of competitors, I think the boats are great and for that I am grateful. The flip side of that is that although I think they are great, they were the wrong boat for this event. Even LE now admits that.

The real problem is that this AC is all about RC's ego and total arogance. Some years ago, he came up with the idea of a WS in cats. He could not get it off the ground because it was too expensive, he couldn't get sponsors and those with the money just saw it as "jobs for the boys". When he won teh AC, he managed to sell the idea to LE, despite the fact that the vast majority of the sailing world and in particular, the AC world, told him it would not work and that they were choosing the wrong boats. But RC knew better. He managed to convince LE that this was an opportunity to change the face of sailing maybe because LE has been looking for a second "lasting legacy" (after Oracle Corp.).

What is clear is that the whole thing has been seriously misjudged. I too don't usually attack people for trying something new with the best of intentions, but this stinks of arogance and could have been handled so much better. The real measure is that from the start, people who knew about such things said it was too expensive, that there wouldn't be enough teams (although you only need a challenger and defender), sponsors would not be interested and they questioned whether there really would be enough appeal to drive audiences to achieve budgetary requirements. Now the OR people are beginning to admit it is too expensive, there aren't enough teams, that the all important audiences need to be bought because most TV companies are not prepared to pay and they haven't managed to get the sponsors they hoped for the event itself while most teams have also failed to get sponsorship.

Add to that the failure to live up to promises made during the battle with EB. They promised fair, independent management, yet AC Alphabet is totally paid for by LE and now part if it is being run by the CEO of Oracle Racing while poor old Iain Murray keeps getting hauled over the coals when he says anything that isn't "on message". They offered the promise of a significant legacy by means of a surplus to be given to the next defender while now everybody is talking about how much it is going to cost LE. They promised an affordable Cup, saying those who were forecasting that it would be too expensive were wrong yet now admit they it was actually themseves that got it totally wrong. They promised a global World Series yet they are struggling to get the events together. Maybe somebody can explain how the ESS manages to get 8 events in 8 countries for 2012 and they were fighting off venues while ACWS could only manage 5 events in 4 venues in 2 countries!

In addition, some of the changes seem to be change for change sake. I still do not understand the logic of the courses and in particular, the reaching starts. I don't think the ESS is less spectacular because of the conventional starts and the lack of boundaries. The reaching finish removes all chance of an exciting finsih with 2 boats converging on different gybes with nobody sure who will get ahead and as for the chequered flag, the less said the better!

There is no doubt that there are lots of good things that AC Alphabet/OR/GGYC have achieved but these really seem to me to be a "so what" next to the monumental screw up of the rest. Nevertheless, I am looking forward to seeing the few AC72's that are built, because they will be exciting and technically advanced. As to how good the racing will actually be, we have no idea because there is one thing that is certain, it will be very different from the one design racing of the AC45's. The big fear is that it will be nearly as one sided as AC33.

Finally, don't call people who have legitimate concerns haters. There are some who attack the defender 9whoever that is) as a matter of principal. There are also some "johnny come lately" types who simply want to stick the knife in. However, there are a group of people on here who love the Cup, even know some of the sailors and personalities involved, who from the start forecast that we would end up in the current state. You might think it gives us great pleasure in being proven right. That couldn't be further from the truth. There is nothing more than i would have liked to have been proven wrong because the vision was fantastic. The issues is that despite so many warning against it for valid and now proven reasons, they tried to execute against that vision and have failed in so many ways.

#16 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 11:51 PM


Yachting: Coutts calls for new clause in America's Cup
Russell Coutts - the man who infamously defected from Team New Zealand to Alinghi in 2000 - is calling for the America's Cup to have a nationality component among the crews.

He says sailing would develop further if teams had to pick crew from their own country.

Coutts, who is chief executive of the Larry Ellison-bankrolled Oracle Racing team in the United States, revealed that he lobbied heavily for a nationality clause when the rules for the Auld Mug were rejigged in 2010.

As it stands, there are no crew regulations in the world's oldest active sporting trophy, although the boat must be built in the country it represents - where materials allow.

"If I was doing it again, I'd have the nationality rule, absolutely," Coutts says. "I tried to push it in this time. At least I think I was gunning for 50 per cent. Then I said, 'No, no, maybe we'll do 20 per cent.' After talking to the teams, the teams didn't really want it. It was going to make it too hard for teams such as China and Korea.

"Don't forget we've got to build the boats. That's always a fundamental rule in America's Cup, and if you go back to the history of it, the early days, the sailors on board actually weren't from the nation.



#17 SimonN

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:12 AM

Does it seem at all hypocritical for a New Zealander who has sailed for 3 different teams in three different countries to be talking about nationality rules? :ph34r:

#18 KiwiJoker

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:45 AM

Does it seem at all hypocritical for a New Zealander who has sailed for 3 different teams in three different countries to be talking about nationality rules? :ph34r:

Nah! He's eyeballing Dalt's job at ETNZ for AC35. Either that or he's got an application in for US citizenship.

#19 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:37 AM

In addition, some of the changes seem to be change for change sake. I still do not understand the logic of the courses and in particular, the reaching starts. I don't think the ESS is less spectacular because of the conventional starts and the lack of boundaries.
You are completely wrong, the reaching start are very spectacular and make it easier to understand to most of non sailors who have difficulty undestanding the logic of boats tacking to go upwind. In fact they should be longer.

The reaching finish removes all chance of an exciting finsih with 2 boats converging on different gybes with nobody sure who will get ahead and as for the chequered flag, the less said the better!
Wrong again, what you want can be seen before, and the finish at high speed in front of the spectators is spectacular, in fact it should be on a longer distance.

I still don't know why you say that a slow boat can be good and that speed cannot be seen with sailing. Would you like slow F1 ? Nonsense.




#20 SW Sailor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:04 AM

I see strain.

The previous night might have been similar to what we experienced in Miami Posted Image

#21 SW Sailor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:06 AM

Does it seem at all hypocritical for a New Zealander who has sailed for 3 different teams in three different countries to be talking about nationality rules? :ph34r:


It might if he was talking about a 100% nationality rule, but that's not what's being discussed.

#22 SW Sailor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 03:57 AM


I'd love to know if any of you A- hole haters have EVER put your asses as far out on the line as Larry and Russel are doing right now to vault something like this into the future? I'm so fucking sick and tired of the sailing talking wimps out there talking about how miserable and shitty this is.

SO WHAT IF THEY FAIL??? BFD! At least they didn't just do it the way it's always been done just because its always been that way.

At least they will have given everything they have to do for the pinnacle of their sport what they had the opportunuity to, and what they thought would be a great game- changing thing!

All someone needs to do to change it back to the old days is win it. So f'ing bring it if thats what you want.

Till then, wimps, just sit back and enjoy the hating, because you sure as hell are being entertained in a bigger and better way right now with what they're doing than you ever have been in your miserable sailing lives!

Sorry, but it is you who doesn't get it. But to start with, despite the lack of competitors, I think the boats are great and for that I am grateful. The flip side of that is that although I think they are great, they were the wrong boat for this event. Even LE now admits that.


I'm not going to blindly defend everything that has taken place - and in fact have openly stated mistakes have been made, the crux of which lie solely with the commercialization of the event as far as I'm concerned. I would have been content with "here is the design rule, here is the venue, and the event takes place in 2013. Build as many boats as you want and show up.

Stan Honey's work is pretty impressive, LE has leveled the playing field with his approach, as he stated he would do, much more than past AC events, and he's brought the event to one of the most spectacular venues in the world. All is not lost, and in fact it may take two iterations to make it a commercial success if they defend successfully.

It's still the AC, money is needed to compete, three or more quality challengers are involved, and the AC72's will present a magnificent spectacle to watch race on the SF Bay in big winds.

I agree with Mariner in that SAAC is the epicenter of negativity, and those that have axes to grind with the event, the individuals involved, or whatever come here to grind them. Hindsight is always 20/20, especially with a totally new concept. How many outside of LE would have even attempted the same ?

EB had the 33rd staged with 90' white elephants - maybe all the naysayers would have preferred that, along with his bastardized protocol. What we have is certainly better than that, but how soon we forget.

Like Renn said, we're not solving world peace here, it's a sailboat race.




#23 ~Stingray~

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:22 AM

Good post, SWS

Agreed

#24 maxmini

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:32 AM


I'd love to know if any of you A- hole haters have EVER put your asses as far out on the line as Larry and Russel are doing right now to vault something like this into the future? I'm so fucking sick and tired of the sailing talking wimps out there talking about how miserable and shitty this is.

SO WHAT IF THEY FAIL??? BFD! At least they didn't just do it the way it's always been done just because its always been that way.

At least they will have given everything they have to do for the pinnacle of their sport what they had the opportunuity to, and what they thought would be a great game- changing thing!

All someone needs to do to change it back to the old days is win it. So f'ing bring it if thats what you want.

Till then, wimps, just sit back and enjoy the hating, because you sure as hell are being entertained in a bigger and better way right now with what they're doing than you ever have been in your miserable sailing lives!

Sorry, but it is you who doesn't get it. But to start with, despite the lack of competitors, I think the boats are great and for that I am grateful. The flip side of that is that although I think they are great, they were the wrong boat for this event. Even LE now admits that.

The real problem is that this AC is all about RC's ego and total arogance. Some years ago, he came up with the idea of a WS in cats. He could not get it off the ground because it was too expensive, he couldn't get sponsors and those with the money just saw it as "jobs for the boys". When he won teh AC, he managed to sell the idea to LE, despite the fact that the vast majority of the sailing world and in particular, the AC world, told him it would not work and that they were choosing the wrong boats. But RC knew better. He managed to convince LE that this was an opportunity to change the face of sailing maybe because LE has been looking for a second "lasting legacy" (after Oracle Corp.).

What is clear is that the whole thing has been seriously misjudged. I too don't usually attack people for trying something new with the best of intentions, but this stinks of arogance and could have been handled so much better. The real measure is that from the start, people who knew about such things said it was too expensive, that there wouldn't be enough teams (although you only need a challenger and defender), sponsors would not be interested and they questioned whether there really would be enough appeal to drive audiences to achieve budgetary requirements. Now the OR people are beginning to admit it is too expensive, there aren't enough teams, that the all important audiences need to be bought because most TV companies are not prepared to pay and they haven't managed to get the sponsors they hoped for the event itself while most teams have also failed to get sponsorship.

Add to that the failure to live up to promises made during the battle with EB. They promised fair, independent management, yet AC Alphabet is totally paid for by LE and now part if it is being run by the CEO of Oracle Racing while poor old Iain Murray keeps getting hauled over the coals when he says anything that isn't "on message". They offered the promise of a significant legacy by means of a surplus to be given to the next defender while now everybody is talking about how much it is going to cost LE. They promised an affordable Cup, saying those who were forecasting that it would be too expensive were wrong yet now admit they it was actually themseves that got it totally wrong. They promised a global World Series yet they are struggling to get the events together. Maybe somebody can explain how the ESS manages to get 8 events in 8 countries for 2012 and they were fighting off venues while ACWS could only manage 5 events in 4 venues in 2 countries!

In addition, some of the changes seem to be change for change sake. I still do not understand the logic of the courses and in particular, the reaching starts. I don't think the ESS is less spectacular because of the conventional starts and the lack of boundaries. The reaching finish removes all chance of an exciting finsih with 2 boats converging on different gybes with nobody sure who will get ahead and as for the chequered flag, the less said the better!

There is no doubt that there are lots of good things that AC Alphabet/OR/GGYC have achieved but these really seem to me to be a "so what" next to the monumental screw up of the rest. Nevertheless, I am looking forward to seeing the few AC72's that are built, because they will be exciting and technically advanced. As to how good the racing will actually be, we have no idea because there is one thing that is certain, it will be very different from the one design racing of the AC45's. The big fear is that it will be nearly as one sided as AC33.

Finally, don't call people who have legitimate concerns haters. There are some who attack the defender 9whoever that is) as a matter of principal. There are also some "johnny come lately" types who simply want to stick the knife in. However, there are a group of people on here who love the Cup, even know some of the sailors and personalities involved, who from the start forecast that we would end up in the current state. You might think it gives us great pleasure in being proven right. That couldn't be further from the truth. There is nothing more than i would have liked to have been proven wrong because the vision was fantastic. The issues is that despite so many warning against it for valid and now proven reasons, they tried to execute against that vision and have failed in so many ways.


Well said and I could not agree more .

#25 SW Sailor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 04:46 AM

The biggest turn-off for me with this event is not the boats, or the event itself, but the politics, both within the organizations promoting the event, those of SF and those of a single challenger with government funding who shouldn't enter the event if he can't afford the price of admission. Throwing the designer of his VOR 70 under the bus publically half way thru the event given the tactical errors made speaks volumes, especially when his team did the structurals on the design and had input to the lines.

What a tool.


Interesting that he's been quiet of late, I wonder what his next bitch will be, and I seriously doubt his beloved sponsors appreciate his attitude.

#26 dogwatch

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:35 AM

Ellison in WSJ - seems to be a summary rather than the original interview. http://online.wsj.co...=googlenews_wsj


Larry Ellison Doesn't Want a Bigger Boat
An America's Cup race involving smaller boats would likely produce more teamsóand perhaps more drama.

Posted Image Agence France-Presse/Getty Images Larry Ellison, left

When sailing's premier race returns to the U.S. next year, it will feature 72-foot catamarans. But Larry Ellison, the co-founder and CEO of Oracle Corp. and founder of Oracle Racing, which won the last Cup in 2010, said in a recent interview that the competition could benefit from a switch to the 45-foot catamarans currently used in the America's Cup World Series.

"I think it's a really good idea to get the cost of fielding a team way down so you can have a lot more countries [and athletes] participating," Ellison said. "If they're 45 feet long, we can ship them around in standard-sized containers, assemble them on site."

Ellison said he would like to have a field of 24 teams competing for the Cup, so the sport can show off more athletes, faster boats and technology that brings television viewers closer to the action. He sees the America's Cup as an extreme sportóone that will, of course, include a few crashes. "When you push the boats to the limits sometimes they just leap into the air, flip over. It's pretty wild," he said. "We're trying to leave some of the traditions of sailing behind and race on boats that are the fastest in the world."



#27 dogwatch

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:40 AM

VS too now - good


Interesting that in neither interview does he mention GCR as an AC72 possibility.

These are both good interviews with realistic comments from RC rather than the spin we've heard too much of in the past. I'm encouraged.

#28 SW Sailor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:51 AM

Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

#29 SimonN

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:41 AM

Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

I am not sure which is better, the negativity or the OTT cheerleading of the likes of you and Stingray. It's all very amusing seeing that you and Stingray weren't prepared to admit any shortcomings until these latest interviews. I guess that's what comes from towing the party line. I guess you now feel you can soften your position a bitin line with the new defender attitude, although for all the teams that aren't in, that softening comes far too late.

#30 nav

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:03 PM


Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

I am not sure which is better, the negativity or the OTT cheerleading of the likes of you and Stingray. It's all very amusing seeing that you and Stingray weren't prepared to admit any shortcomings until these latest interviews. I guess that's what comes from towing the party line. I guess you now feel you can soften your position a bitin line with the new defender attitude, although for all the teams that aren't in, that softening comes far too late.


Give it a rest mate. You were one of the most vociferous critics of the AC45 design, before you did an about face once they were launched and proved all your theories wrong. (That goes for your 'most people in the AC who said it was the wrong choice' as well)

It will be a long time before your opinion can be taken seriously here, after your blind defence of the cheating, AC-wrecking, mama's boy.

Just as with MSP, PH et al, constant attack/trolling on every aspect of a long complex process will occasionally yield the shallowest of 'Victories'. No analysis or intellect required.

#31 Alpina

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:21 PM

The Cup should never be contested for in a sub-maxi boat.

#32 nav

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 12:41 PM

The Cup should never be contested for in a sub-maxi boat.


A meaningless expression once the switch to multis has been made, or?

Should never be contested in, slow boat, ugly boat, unexciting boat, over-crewed boat, boat that does not boost ultimate technology, boat that is too technologically advanced to appeal to the general public, boat that never crashes, boat that always crashes.......

Each to his own.

#33 Rennmaus

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:07 PM


The Cup should never be contested for in a sub-maxi boat.


A meaningless expression once the switch to multis has been made, or?

Should never be contested in, slow boat, ugly boat, unexciting boat, over-crewed boat, boat that does not boost ultimate technology, boat that is too technologically advanced to appeal to the general public, boat that never crashes, boat that always crashes.......

Each to his own.

Wrong.

Right: ... should never be contested in boats that "if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water-line; if of more than one mast they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water-line."

#34 ~HHN92~

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 01:49 PM



The Cup should never be contested for in a sub-maxi boat.


A meaningless expression once the switch to multis has been made, or?

Should never be contested in, slow boat, ugly boat, unexciting boat, over-crewed boat, boat that does not boost ultimate technology, boat that is too technologically advanced to appeal to the general public, boat that never crashes, boat that always crashes.......

Each to his own.

Wrong.

Right: ... should never be contested in boats that "if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water-line; if of more than one mast they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water-line."


At 62-66' the 12's were small, and even had to have an amendment to the DoG to be used, relative to what had been previously used. Of course some of the length was due to the overhangs where sailing length was gained, which the multis do not need.

So, do we want small boats so everyone can afford one, or do we want boats of a certain size that add an amount of complexity and technology, so that they are unique and the design element is as important as the skill of the crew?

Like many argued here about AC33 during the litigation, it has gone over the cliff of being commercialized for value and will not be the traditional America's Cup again. Most of RC's interview was totally about comerical value and making the boats and competition fit.



Maybe the NBA is going to half-court, the NFL to an 80 yard field, NASCAR to 100 mile races, MLB to 5 inning games, FIFA to to 45 minute matches.

Gotta make them fit the media market.

#35 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 02:27 PM

Ellison said. "If they're 45 feet long, we can ship them around in standard-sized containers, assemble them on site."

Ellison said he would like to have a field of 24 teams ....... "When you push the boats to the limits sometimes they just leap into the air, flip over. It's pretty wild," he said. "We're trying to leave some of the traditions of sailing behind and race on boats that are the fastest in the world."


Is Larry preparing plan B for the case they would lose against ADM ?

#36 ro!

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:20 PM

Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.


We know that any criticism of AC34 is considered by you to be 'negativity in a cesspool of negativity' whether it is right or wrong...
What you forget is your negativity and trolling on any subject that involves kiwi's, GD, Etnz and now it's Camper campaign, alinghi, eb, bb or Switzerland...

Noted however, is that your former shared ideals of ehman and spinbot seems to have maxed out and maybe even waned a bit...

#37 maxmini

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:35 PM


Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

I am not sure which is better, the negativity or the OTT cheerleading of the likes of you and Stingray. It's all very amusing seeing that you and Stingray weren't prepared to admit any shortcomings until these latest interviews. I guess that's what comes from towing the party line. I guess you now feel you can soften your position a bitin line with the new defender attitude, although for all the teams that aren't in, that softening comes far too late.


I do seem to recall the " good old days " with thoughts of 12 plus teams and 36 AC 45s bounding across the bay. When those figures were thought to be false those people with those opinions were called negative . Based on Larry's own words those same people look to be spot on. We were not being negative just realistic.

#38 SW Sailor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:41 PM


Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.


We know that any criticism of AC34 is considered by you to be 'negativity in a cesspool of negativity' whether it is right or wrong...
What you forget is your negativity and trolling on any subject that involves kiwi's, GD, Etnz and now it's Camper campaign, alinghi, eb, bb or Switzerland...

Noted however, is that your former shared ideals of ehman and spinbot seems to have maxed out and maybe even waned a bit...


Thanks for letting me know what I've forgotten, Dr. Negative.

You might even have a positive post to your credit if one digs deep enough, but only because you were called on it so often.

Maybe it's time to go sailing again ?

#39 maxmini

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:42 PM




The Cup should never be contested for in a sub-maxi boat.


A meaningless expression once the switch to multis has been made, or?

Should never be contested in, slow boat, ugly boat, unexciting boat, over-crewed boat, boat that does not boost ultimate technology, boat that is too technologically advanced to appeal to the general public, boat that never crashes, boat that always crashes.......

Each to his own.

Wrong.

Right: ... should never be contested in boats that "if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water-line; if of more than one mast they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water-line."


At 62-66' the 12's were small, and even had to have an amendment to the DoG to be used, relative to what had been previously used. Of course some of the length was due to the overhangs where sailing length was gained, which the multis do not need.

So, do we want small boats so everyone can afford one, or do we want boats of a certain size that add an amount of complexity and technology, so that they are unique and the design element is as important as the skill of the crew?

Like many argued here about AC33 during the litigation, it has gone over the cliff of being commercialized for value and will not be the traditional America's Cup again. Most of RC's interview was totally about comerical value and making the boats and competition fit.



Maybe the NBA is going to half-court, the NFL to an 80 yard field, NASCAR to 100 mile races, MLB to 5 inning games, FIFA to to 45 minute matches.

Gotta make them fit the media market.




This hits the nail on the head . AC 34 Light, reality TV comes to sailing. Next up will be The Wives of Auckland.

#40 dogwatch

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:44 PM

I do seem to recall the " good old days " with thoughts of 12 plus teams and 36 AC 45s bounding across the bay. When those figures were thought to be false those peoppe with those opinions were called negative . Based on Larry's own words those same people look to be spot on. We were not being negative just realistic.


Yes it is fairly amusing that the views given by LE and RC in recent days have previously been characterised (by some) as those of "haters". Are Larry and Russell now "haters" too?

It looks like Xlot will get his "reset" (patent pending) whoever wins AC34 but not until the AC35 cycle.

#41 SW Sailor

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:20 PM



Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

I am not sure which is better, the negativity or the OTT cheerleading of the likes of you and Stingray. It's all very amusing seeing that you and Stingray weren't prepared to admit any shortcomings until these latest interviews. I guess that's what comes from towing the party line. I guess you now feel you can soften your position a bitin line with the new defender attitude, although for all the teams that aren't in, that softening comes far too late.


I do seem to recall the " good old days " with thoughts of 12 plus teams and 36 AC 45s bounding across the bay. When those figures were thought to be false those people with those opinions were called negative . Based on Larry's own words those same people look to be spot on. We were not being negative just realistic.

You are correct, although the number of entrants was always a topic of interest and speculation, and as it turns out people on both sides of the argument were wrong. New event, new boats, new venues, a lot of unknowns.

I also recall the comments that Cascais was going to be pushed out due to lack of import documentation, everything was messed up and everyone's travel plans were going to be screwed up as a result inconviencing everyone travelling to the event. On top of that their is no way they had enough room for the containers either, so the event was going to be a total bust. And of course Murray got shot down 20 ways from Sunday for saying they would be shipping 400 containers. That argument had a lot of merit eh ?

Was the checkered flag and posting boat speeds in kph stupid ? Yes, and I stated so but also gave them credit for listening which only a handful here did, and the flag and kph were gone.

Keep in mind this was the first ACWS event, so their was bound to be a few issues, but in the end it took place on schedule with all teams involved.

And the list is much longer than this one simple example, but more importantly when have the fans had any kind of voice in these matters ?





#42 nav

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:22 PM


I do seem to recall the " good old days " with thoughts of 12 plus teams and 36 AC 45s bounding across the bay. When those figures were thought to be false those peoppe with those opinions were called negative . Based on Larry's own words those same people look to be spot on. We were not being negative just realistic.


Yes it is fairly amusing that the views given by LE and RC in recent days have previously been characterised (by some) as those of "haters". Are Larry and Russell now "haters" too?

It looks like Xlot will get his "reset" (patent pending) whoever wins AC34 but not until the AC35 cycle.


No reset then, just business as usual.

#43 pominfrance

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 06:37 PM



Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

I am not sure which is better, the negativity or the OTT cheerleading of the likes of you and Stingray. It's all very amusing seeing that you and Stingray weren't prepared to admit any shortcomings until these latest interviews. I guess that's what comes from towing the party line. I guess you now feel you can soften your position a bitin line with the new defender attitude, although for all the teams that aren't in, that softening comes far too late.


I do seem to recall the " good old days " with thoughts of 12 plus teams and 36 AC 45s bounding across the bay. When those figures were thought to be false those people with those opinions were called negative . Based on Larry's own words those same people look to be spot on. We were not being negative just realistic.



This AC has been a constant stream of over hype and under-delivery. There are some dreamers on here that have been toeing the Oracle line, only to be shown as fantasists when the bosses finally admit they were wrong. Which this week both Larry and Russell have done. Not only have they said so but they have fired loads of their employees who they (and a bunch of their paid PR hacks on here) held in such high regard. Its an unmitigated disaster. There are no new fans and no significant new sponsors. The good bits are the AC 45s and the TV coverage- both fantastic. But.. they look like that is going to be a balls up. They should have stuck with a OD45 and two box rule development 45s for the ACevent. It looks like the TV coverage is going to be cut so hard they will get Gary Jobson to do it for free.

As a long time fan Larry and Wussell have made a hash of this from 2007 onwards. Over 6 years of failure. Such a shame for sailors and fans of The Cup. I went to Valencia and despite everything there were loads of teams, loads of great stories, sponsors, money and a future. EB may have made a few mistakes but they pail into insignificance compared to the shit show emerging right now.
Carry on... :-)

#44 GauchoGreg

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 08:04 PM




Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

I am not sure which is better, the negativity or the OTT cheerleading of the likes of you and Stingray. It's all very amusing seeing that you and Stingray weren't prepared to admit any shortcomings until these latest interviews. I guess that's what comes from towing the party line. I guess you now feel you can soften your position a bitin line with the new defender attitude, although for all the teams that aren't in, that softening comes far too late.


I do seem to recall the " good old days " with thoughts of 12 plus teams and 36 AC 45s bounding across the bay. When those figures were thought to be false those people with those opinions were called negative . Based on Larry's own words those same people look to be spot on. We were not being negative just realistic.



This AC has been a constant stream of over hype and under-delivery. There are some dreamers on here that have been toeing the Oracle line, only to be shown as fantasists when the bosses finally admit they were wrong. Which this week both Larry and Russell have done. Not only have they said so but they have fired loads of their employees who they (and a bunch of their paid PR hacks on here) held in such high regard. Its an unmitigated disaster. There are no new fans and no significant new sponsors. The good bits are the AC 45s and the TV coverage- both fantastic. But.. they look like that is going to be a balls up. They should have stuck with a OD45 and two box rule development 45s for the ACevent. It looks like the TV coverage is going to be cut so hard they will get Gary Jobson to do it for free.

As a long time fan Larry and Wussell have made a hash of this from 2007 onwards. Over 6 years of failure. Such a shame for sailors and fans of The Cup. I went to Valencia and despite everything there were loads of teams, loads of great stories, sponsors, money and a future. EB may have made a few mistakes but they pail into insignificance compared to the shit show emerging right now.
Carry on... :-)


Exaggeration much????!

You might as well just tune out, there will be nothing to see in Naples, Venice, Newport, SFO, through 2012 or 2013. All is dead. Nothing good. No potential of success.

#45 maxmini

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 10:05 PM





Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.

I am not sure which is better, the negativity or the OTT cheerleading of the likes of you and Stingray. It's all very amusing seeing that you and Stingray weren't prepared to admit any shortcomings until these latest interviews. I guess that's what comes from towing the party line. I guess you now feel you can soften your position a bitin line with the new defender attitude, although for all the teams that aren't in, that softening comes far too late.


I do seem to recall the " good old days " with thoughts of 12 plus teams and 36 AC 45s bounding across the bay. When those figures were thought to be false those people with those opinions were called negative . Based on Larry's own words those same people look to be spot on. We were not being negative just realistic.



This AC has been a constant stream of over hype and under-delivery. There are some dreamers on here that have been toeing the Oracle line, only to be shown as fantasists when the bosses finally admit they were wrong. Which this week both Larry and Russell have done. Not only have they said so but they have fired loads of their employees who they (and a bunch of their paid PR hacks on here) held in such high regard. Its an unmitigated disaster. There are no new fans and no significant new sponsors. The good bits are the AC 45s and the TV coverage- both fantastic. But.. they look like that is going to be a balls up. They should have stuck with a OD45 and two box rule development 45s for the ACevent. It looks like the TV coverage is going to be cut so hard they will get Gary Jobson to do it for free.

As a long time fan Larry and Wussell have made a hash of this from 2007 onwards. Over 6 years of failure. Such a shame for sailors and fans of The Cup. I went to Valencia and despite everything there were loads of teams, loads of great stories, sponsors, money and a future. EB may have made a few mistakes but they pail into insignificance compared to the shit show emerging right now.
Carry on... :-)


Exaggeration much????!

You might as well just tune out, there will be nothing to see in Naples, Venice, Newport, SFO, through 2012 or 2013. All is dead. Nothing good. No potential of success.


Actually you do bring up a good point . If ALL of 2012 and 2013 ends up being held at a grand total of FOUR venues I think this is quite a disappointment as well. Current sponsors and if there actually are any left even thinking about throwing some cash at this would also have to agree.

#46 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:03 PM


Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.


We know that any criticism of AC34 is considered by you to be 'negativity in a cesspool of negativity' whether it is right or wrong...
What you forget is your negativity and trolling on any subject that involves kiwi's, GD, Etnz and now it's Camper campaign, alinghi, eb, bb or Switzerland...

Noted however, is that your former shared ideals of ehman and spinbot seems to have maxed out and maybe even waned a bit...


What is entertaining is watching SWS and some of his buddies making 180 degrees salto about everything they said before.
If Larry is reading us, maybe they could do the same,.....................................................................and not look like fools.

#47 SimonN

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:10 PM

Give it a rest mate. You were one of the most vociferous critics of the AC45 design, before you did an about face once they were launched and proved all your theories wrong. (That goes for your 'most people in the AC who said it was the wrong choice' as well)

Bullshit! It's about time you learnt to read or improved your memory.I have always been a fan of the boats, both the AC45 and the AC72. I had minor critisism of the wing on the AC45 fot bing overly simple, but as a cat sailor in a development class, for me personally, the boats are the one really good thing to come out of all of this. If you are going to make a creable argument, get your facts right.

It will be a long time before your opinion can be taken seriously here, after your blind defence of the cheating, AC-wrecking, mama's boy.

Great quality of debate! Fortunately, many on here could tell the difference between supporting EB and being anti LE, which is what I was. My whole position was based on LE being no better than EB, and I think that is being proven to be not too far from the mark. I am not somebody who believes that being screwed legally is any difference from beiung screwed illegally. In the end, you are still being screwed.

Just as with MSP, PH et al, constant attack/trolling on every aspect of a long complex process will occasionally yield the shallowest of 'Victories'. No analysis or intellect required.

Where is the lack of analysis and debate? I think it is coming from you. There are a small group of posters on here (and not including MSP, T-C and the like) who warned, from the start, about the flaws in the plan for AC 34 and are now being proven right by a mix of admission by the defender team and by events. These are the key areas

1. It is too expensive and will reduce teams - This is now admitted by everybody. The OR fanboys were saying numbers don't matter, RC now says he wishes there were far more! For ages we had the OR fanboys drinkinmg the OR Koolaid, telling us that these boats were cheaper than the old ones and that campaigns would cost less yet now the real figures are coming out. Remember the argument that a wing costs less than all the development of mainsails? What a joke that has proven to be!

2. Independent management - It seems the OR fanboys believe that just because the OR team says the management is independent, it must be ("you read it on a website"! lol). However, the "independent" management is totally funded by LE and now has the OR CEO running much of it. Poor old Iain Murray, one of the good guys, is kept on a short leash and every time he says something that is against the party line, the "heavies" come out and reinterpret what he said and he is made to change his story.

3. Hijacking of the AC to get RC's World Series off the ground - Here I admit i was only partially right. The world series RC planned had far more events planned :D However, it isn't exactly coincidental that RC's partner for the World Series is CEO of the COR and has been working with RC on this even before his team became the COR.

4. The COR - The original COR did absolutely nothing to represent the views of the challengers and gave GGYC/OR a free run at everything. When challengers wanted something represented to the defender (before the protocol was released) GGYC told them to deal through the COR while the COR refused to discuss anything or even reply to other challengers. When the inevitable happened and VO withdrew, the process to choose the next COR was totally fixed to ensure another puppet COR.

5. Open and transparent - This was one of the key buzzwords. Yet AC Alphabet has failed to do this at every turn. Deadlines for announcements of venues were missed without even an explanation. Teams were in dispair because they were unable ot tell sponsors where events were to take place and sponsors faith in the organisers was badly dented as they failed to meet deadlines and failed to tell anybody anything.

6. Surplus profits - Another key point of the whole commercialisation of the Cup. The OR team made a huge point out of the future distribution of money in an attempt to entice the next defendeder to keep the "revolution" going. It was clear that making a profit and the commercialisation was a key driver and they have failed, big time, to deliver.

7. Dodgy property deal - From the start, some of us saw the pier deals as a way for LE to make money out of the Cup. EB was attacked for doing property deals in Valencia yet it was OK for LE to do those deals in SF? If the profit from the deals had been included in the pay out to the teams or even been asigned to the AC itself, that would have been fine, but instead the profit would have gone to LE. I have no objection to him being refunded what he put in to make things happen, but to make a profit out of the AC, that is simply wrong. Thankfully, we will never know how this would have played out because the BOS woke up to what was going on.

8. TV - We were promised that sponsors would be rewarded by huge new audiences on TV, by making the coverage out of this world. To be fair, the coverage is great but the only way AC Alphabet has been able to deliver any significant air time in major markets is to buy it. They couldn't even sell the idea in their home market! Is it any wonder sponsors are running away?

All of this was predicted and all have been proven to be correct. The only defence I have seen is that none of this matters because the boats are great, which they are, but that misses the point. Now run off to the OR website, check the latest interviews with LE and RC and find out the official line on all of those comments. :P

#48 ~Stingray~

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:38 PM

^ I am not seeing where LE or RC said anything at all surprising. Am most definitely not seeing any 180 degree turns, despite all the 'See, I was right!' self congratulatory back slapping that some posters are acting out.

But since it's happening I will join in the fun with a little of my own..

What they both said about being surprised at how compelling the AC45 racing is, is exactly the point that I have been making - for months already. And is why, when we saw the possibility published that they are considering running AC45s in 2013 on the Bay, I expressed the opinion it might make for better racing than the AC72's, draw more attention, be more popular, than say the LV proper in the AC72's. RC did not go that far though, in the VS interview he basically says 'Some of us are surprised at how good a platform the AC45s have been ~but~ the jury is still out on the AC72s.' And says, in the same para as discussing the AC72s, that they -or a slightly smaller version - could be made cheaper by standardizing aspects of it; presumably so you don't feel the urge to put 30+ designers to work on it next time. So he's not doing a turnaround on the AC72s yet; just being open minded about the possibility to go smaller now that racing at even AC45 scale has proved out so well.

He is also steadfastly making a point that I have too, about how the quality of the Big Four is terrific.

For those who care so much about numbers, he says yes it would be nice to have more, but then we probably will see from 6 to 8 teams anyway - even if they do hope it's more like 12 by next time. I've been forecasting much the same, still think 5 or 6 Challengers is a good possibility, and he is telling us that too.

In the VS interview especially, he talks about the 'chicken and egg' that we've batted around here and on that subject too he is saying what I have generally argued for; that this is going to prove itself in short order, so don't go giving away headline sponsorships just yet. Wait until the big sponsors realize the potential. RC absolutely says that that has been a good strategy; one that will prove out well.

And when (no big surprise to anyone including me) they ~paid~ NBC to get wide AC coverage reach, which as RC said in the ZG interview is good for sailing - and great for the AC - well I commented that since ACA was going to handle the selling of sponsorship of that air time, that they were confident of its coming value. While RC did not adress that possibility specifically, I think that if asked he may prove me right on, on that argument too.

So... there! :)

edit: oh, and now I see another SimonN self-congratulatory diatribe! Might adress some of that, later.

#49 SW Sailor

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:02 AM



Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.


We know that any criticism of AC34 is considered by you to be 'negativity in a cesspool of negativity' whether it is right or wrong...
What you forget is your negativity and trolling on any subject that involves kiwi's, GD, Etnz and now it's Camper campaign, alinghi, eb, bb or Switzerland...

Noted however, is that your former shared ideals of ehman and spinbot seems to have maxed out and maybe even waned a bit...


What is entertaining is watching SWS and some of his buddies making 180 degrees salto about everything they said before.


Why don't you point out 3 or 4 specific examples of my 180 degree turns, or is this just another one of your baseless accusations ?

#50 maxmini

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:02 AM

^ I am not seeing where LE or RC said anything at all surprising. Am most definitely not seeing any 180 degree turns, despite all the 'See, I was right!' self congratulatory back slapping that some posters are acting out.

But since it's happening I will join in the fun with a little of my own..

What they both said about being surprised at how compelling the AC45 racing is, is exactly the point that I have been making - for months already. And is why, when we saw the possibility published that they are considering running AC45s in 2013 on the Bay, I expressed the opinion it might make for better racing than the AC72's, draw more attention, be more popular, than say the LV proper in the AC72's. RC did not go that far though, in the VS interview he basically says 'Some of us are surprised at how good a platform the AC45s have been ~but~ the jury is still out on the AC72s.' And says, in the same para as discussing the AC72s, that they -or a slightly smaller version - could be made cheaper by standardizing aspects of it; presumably so you don't feel the urge to put 30+ designers to work on it next time. So he's not doing a turnaround on the AC72s yet; just being open minded about the possibility to go smaller now that racing at even AC45 scale has proved out so well.

He is also steadfastly making a point that I have too, about how the quality of the Big Four is terrific.

For those who care so much about numbers, he says yes it would be nice to have more, but then we probably will see from 6 to 8 teams anyway - even if they do hope it's more like 12 by next time. I've been forecasting much the same, still think 5 or 6 Challengers is a good possibility, and he is telling us that too.

In the VS interview especially, he talks about the 'chicken and egg' that we've batted around here and on that subject too he is saying what I have generally argued for; that this is going to prove itself in short order, so don't go giving away headline sponsorships just yet. Wait until the big sponsors realize the potential. RC absolutely says that that has been a good strategy; one that will prove out well.

And when (no big surprise to anyone including me) they ~paid~ NBC to get wide AC coverage reach, which as RC said in the ZG interview is good for sailing - and great for the AC - well I commented that since ACA was going to handle the selling of sponsorship of that air time, that they were confident of its coming value. While RC did not adress that possibility specifically, I think that if asked he may prove me right on, on that argument too.

So... there! :)

edit: oh, and now I see another SimonN self-congratulatory diatribe! Might adress some of that, later.


What LE or RC said was not a surprise to many of us , what was a surprise was that they admitted it in public. Hats off to them for beginning to accept the reality.

#51 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 12:33 AM

What LE or RC said was not a surprise to many of us , what was a surprise was that they admitted it in public. Hats off to them for beginning to accept the reality.

'Admitted' what? That they accept the reality that the AC45's have proved to be an excellent platform; and so that they might therefore consider going to a smaller boat next time than the AC72?

Yes - Hats off to them, but: Where is the surprise that they think that the possibility to go smaller is good, and that they therefore also say it? Do you by default expect that they just speak nonsense, make stuff up, whenever it's not something you agree with? They've been pretty darn straight for a long time already, so that 'accept the reality' part is just no 'surprise' to me.

Whoever wins AC34 may want to keep the AC72, but in a more standardized and therefore cheaper form; or may not. At least they are open-minded about it for in case they do Defend with success, but then neither LE or RC has ever had much of a problem with being open-minded, they are almost frustratingly non-committal to details and so just do typically answer questions that way.

#52 maxmini

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:12 AM


What LE or RC said was not a surprise to many of us , what was a surprise was that they admitted it in public. Hats off to them for beginning to accept the reality.

'Admitted' what? That they accept the reality that the AC45's have proved to be an excellent platform; and so that they might therefore consider going to a smaller boat next time than the AC72?

Yes - Hats off to them, but: Where is the surprise that they think that the possibility to go smaller is good, and that they therefore also say it? Do you by default expect that they just speak nonsense, make stuff up, whenever it's not something you agree with? They've been pretty darn straight for a long time already, so that 'accept the reality' part is just no 'surprise' to me.

Whoever wins AC34 may want to keep the AC72, but in a more standardized and therefore cheaper form; or may not. At least they are open-minded about it for in case they do Defend with success, but then neither LE or RC has ever had much of a problem with being open-minded, they are almost frustratingly non-committal to details and so just do typically answer questions that way.



What they admitted to in so many words was that in spite of their " goal " to make AC 34 less expensive they have done the opposite and its costing them entrants . I am not a AC historian but has there ever been one with less entrants than the 4 we have at present ? Case in point for those sail makers out there , how many 3dl sails can you make with 35,000 man hours . Next question if one rips how many man hours to repair it ? As for the " possibility " of having to go smaller you make it seem like they have a choice .

#53 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 01:38 AM

RC said in the VZ interview that the number of Challengers was reasonable given the world's lingering economic situation. I agree with that, but do not see where he's said the AC72 was a bad choice; just that in hindsight more might have been done to limit development costs. And nowhere has RC ever suggested the premise of the Reset thread, to leave it at 72' but go narrower and with a 30m instead of 40m wing. To the contrary, RC and most everyone you can name is pretty awestruck about what racing AC72s will be like.

LE's idea to consider aiming for two dozen small teams instead of a handful of big ones, does surprise me a little; but if that's his recent thinking, perhaps he is also forecasting we will never see 10 or 12 big, good teams in future AC's? It could almost be taken as an economic forecast. Or just, as HHN suggested and RC in a way too, that new thinking says smaller boats on shorter courses, in tighter TV time slots, is what makes increasing sense to sailing too. Look at the ESS, some of those are under 8 minutes!

If they win then for sure they will have a lot of say in the choice.

#54 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:33 AM




Not to worry, even though it;'s an open admission of the current state of affairs I'm sure we'll see the negative side of any comments here in the cesspool of negativity.


We know that any criticism of AC34 is considered by you to be 'negativity in a cesspool of negativity' whether it is right or wrong...
What you forget is your negativity and trolling on any subject that involves kiwi's, GD, Etnz and now it's Camper campaign, alinghi, eb, bb or Switzerland...

Noted however, is that your former shared ideals of ehman and spinbot seems to have maxed out and maybe even waned a bit...


What is entertaining is watching SWS and some of his buddies making 180 degrees salto about everything they said before.


Why don't you point out 3 or 4 specific examples of my 180 degree turns, or is this just another one of your baseless accusations ?

^^
Pleasure,

1) "I'm not going to blindly defend everything that has taken place"
That's new SWS, never seen this langage before, did you fall in the cesspool of negativity ? :blink:

2) Your numerous attacks of Ehman

3) What about your attacks of politics within the organization of AC34

4) "Was the checkered flag and posting boat speeds in kph stupid ? Yes, "
I don't remember you were against it at the time, you were defending the Portland Parrot.

5) "the crux of which lie solely with the commercialization of the event as far as I'm concerned"
Well, I though only Ernesto was willing to make money with the AC. Glad it took you a few years to realize your hero is willing to do the same.

Now,

1) "LE has leveled the playing field with his approach"
Wrong, Larry himself would like to invite 24 teams with AC45

2) "All is not lost, and in fact it may take two iterations to make it a commercial success if they defend successfully. "

And here you contradict yourself in the same post...

Well, I guess that is SWS... :)

#55 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:42 AM

^ I am not seeing where LE or RC said anything at all surprising. Am most definitely not seeing any 180 degree turns

edit: oh, and now I see another SimonN self-congratulatory diatribe! Might adress some of that, later.


In fact it is for the best, if Larry is making a turn to have 24 teams on AC45, I think everybody would be happy. The problem is how, but I have an idea about that.

Simon cannot congratulate himself, it's a collection of others points, I have never seen him come with new ideas, but he's good at rants. ;)

#56 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:51 AM


^ I am not seeing where LE or RC said anything at all surprising. Am most definitely not seeing any 180 degree turns.

In fact it is for the best, if Larry is making a turn to have 24 teams on AC45, I think everybody would be happy. The problem is how, but I have an idea about that.

It will surprise me if LE gets that ~that~ 'democratic.' Sounds like a fast way to lose the Cup..

I would prefer bigger and am very much looking forward to the spectacle of the AC72s. If they continue with AC45s as a side-series / World Series then surely they could keep the Cup for the big boys in the 72's, and we get to enjoy the best of both worlds?

#57 maxmini

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:04 AM



^ I am not seeing where LE or RC said anything at all surprising. Am most definitely not seeing any 180 degree turns.

In fact it is for the best, if Larry is making a turn to have 24 teams on AC45, I think everybody would be happy. The problem is how, but I have an idea about that.

It will surprise me if LE gets that ~that~ 'democratic.' Sounds like a fast way to lose the Cup..

I would prefer bigger and am very much looking forward to the spectacle of the AC72s. If they continue with AC45s as a side-series / World Series then surely they could keep the Cup for the big boys in the 72's, and we get to enjoy the best of both worlds?



The 45's make for a fun series and if they can sustain it all the better , just dont confuse it with The Americas Cup. As for the 72's being tabbed the BEST of anything shouldn't we wait to see if they float first ?

#58 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:13 AM




^ I am not seeing where LE or RC said anything at all surprising. Am most definitely not seeing any 180 degree turns.

In fact it is for the best, if Larry is making a turn to have 24 teams on AC45, I think everybody would be happy. The problem is how, but I have an idea about that.

It will surprise me if LE gets that ~that~ 'democratic.' Sounds like a fast way to lose the Cup..

I would prefer bigger and am very much looking forward to the spectacle of the AC72s. If they continue with AC45s as a side-series / World Series then surely they could keep the Cup for the big boys in the 72's, and we get to enjoy the best of both worlds?



The 45's make for a fun series and if they can sustain it all the better , just dont confuse it with The Americas Cup. As for the 72's being tabbed the BEST of anything shouldn't we wait to see if they float first ?


Right, I allways thought that the main problem was the confusion between AC45 and the Cup. I am convinced it would be easier for the teams to find money for their AC72 if the two events were detached.
If we want to keep both one should be a World cup, the other the Americas Cup.

#59 SimonN

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:49 AM

The 45's make for a fun series and if they can sustain it all the better , just dont confuse it with The Americas Cup. As for the 72's being tabbed the BEST of anything shouldn't we wait to see if they float first ?

Don't get negative on the AC72. it's the best thing to come out of this edition of the cup. It might be the wrong boat at the wrong time, but for for me it is one of the most exciting thing to happen in sailing for a long time. IMO, it is far more interesting than the 2 boats built for AC33, because neither of them were very refined or developed because they weren't built to a rule. it is only through a rule that you get true refinement and development. AC33 was about big, unsubtle design gestures. For instance, if you think DZ's wing was something else, wait until we see the final iterations of the AC72 wings. They might not be as big, but even the little we have seen from Artemis is very exciting and that is just the beginning of the development cycle.

#60 ~HHN92~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:58 AM

Like most things there are good and bad issues that have developed since AC34 has been organized.

There were the high hopes that LE and his crew had with their ideas on how they wanted to modernize the Cup series, some which were along the same vein as EB wanted to go. Like many economic 'experts' I do not think they had any idea that the downturn would be as deep as it has turned-out to be. I sure did not think that I was going to go through a career change at that time. They lost the CoR. With the big reach, which many said was too much, too grand, it is disappointing that the AC is going to be scaled back to a much smaller event than envisoned. A quick and cheap V5 program, with a limit of 1 new boat, could have been fast and inexpensive way to get the AC back on track, and then the big changes could have been implemented. Other options with the multihull could have been done, but going to a new boat completely was not going to be an inexpensive proposition, adding the hard wing to boot. No way, and I said it back then, but then, what do I know?


So now here we are, things are the way they are with the cards that have been dealt. I still hold out hope that the event will pull itself together, and be as successful as possible. Maybe the lessons learned over the last two years will guide them, and with the recent re-structuring, will be a turning point in getting this AC whipped into shape.

#61 SimonN

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:01 AM

Right, I allways thought that the main problem was the confusion between AC45 and the Cup. I am convinced it would be easier for the teams to find money for their AC72 if the two events were detached.
If we want to keep both one should be a World cup, the other the Americas Cup.

While I understand your sentiments and have some sympathy for what you say, I am not sure you have really hit the nail on the head. I support the idea that a series of regattas in teh years leading up to the LV and AC are important. It "Acts" were one of the great successes from AC32. This sort of series gives the sponsors real and valuable extra exposure and is essential, so the idea is sound. I think, however, there have been 2 problems with the execution. The first is the 2 different types of boat. I think using the AC45's has simply highlighted the prolems with the AC72 - it's new, the development cycle is long and expensive, and the learning curve is very steep. Overall, it highlighted the risks. The second problem was the blurring of the boundaries between the cup and the world series. Having the Americas Cup World Champion was and still is rather confusing. where does that sit against winning the Americas Cup. How can somebody be the World Champion but not win the cup?

Maybe the issues will clear once the WS is sailed in AC72's. The problem is that by then, it will be far too late. Of course, there will be those who say, as above, it takes 2 cycles for it all to bed in. Well, the Acts worked first time in AC32. This is the second cycle of this sort of series and it hasn't gone anywhere near as well.

#62 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:18 AM

We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?

#63 maxmini

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:45 AM

We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


One design 45ft boats with a scarce few actually paid for and the rest loaned by Larry. Ya that sounds real successful .

#64 SW Sailor

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:57 AM


We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


One design 45ft boats with a scarce few actually paid for and the rest loaned by Larry. Ya that sounds real successful .

I don't think the quality of the event is impacted as to whether the boats are paid for our not, and I'm not sure anyone here knows the facts anyway.

Looking forward to seeing if TC has improved, how Nathan will do with TK, if two boat practice has helped Artemis, and where LR stacks up in the line-up.

If the winds are a steady 14 to 16 sea breeze as indicated, this should be a good event as many of the teams should have improved.






#65 maxmini

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:07 AM



We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


One design 45ft boats with a scarce few actually paid for and the rest loaned by Larry. Ya that sounds real successful .

I don't think the quality of the event is impacted as to whether the boats are paid for our not, and I'm not sure anyone here knows the facts anyway.

Looking forward to seeing if TC has improved, how Nathan will do with TK, if two boat practice has helped Artemis, and where LR stacks up in the line-up.

If the winds are a steady 14 to 16 sea breeze as indicated, this should be a good event as many of the teams should have improved.



The quality of the sailing is not but the term " success " absolutly is .

#66 Te Kooti

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:16 AM

LE's idea to consider aiming for two dozen small teams instead of a handful of big ones, does surprise me a little; but if that's his recent thinking, perhaps he is also forecasting we will never see 10 or 12 big, good teams in future AC's?


I doubt there is anyone willing to forecast the future craft for the AC.

Not LE, RC or GD.

A lot with depend on SF, 2013.

If we have a shambles - broken boats, mediocre racing, too much attrition etc, the future of the AC72 will be in grave doubt (cf. the VOR)

But if it is a spectacular success - fast, minimal breakage, fair contest, exciting etc etc the AC72 might have a future.

If it is a brilliant success, indecisive lurkers (eg. Branson, the Canadian fireplace king, Russian oil and organised crime, IT billionaires from Asia etc) might be in.

#67 Te Kooti

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:34 AM

As you know, I love China. But the lack of consultative structures (ie democratic behaviour) there leads to catastrophes - like the 3-gorges dam.

It is also leading to a factional fight in the Communist Party (and, hopefully, emergence of something better).

Soon after the DZ versus A5 contest we had the 2010 Olympic games in Vanvcouver.

Larry's son watched snowboarding and other "extreme" events on TV and told his father this was the future for young people/sport/TV. Why isn't the AC like this?

Oracle journos turned simple-minded adolescent obsevations into the Flintstones/Facebook false dichotomy.

And the equally idiotic "stadium racing."

Larry brought Russell into this conversation and they hatched the idea of the AC45 as the feeder route to the AC72.

At that point they should have created a consultative process and listened to people like GD.

And some of us!

When you go to lunch with the same people day after day, just like narrow-minded Beijing cadres, you become convinced you know best.

In recent weeks, LE and RC have acknowledged mistakes were made.

Confessions have occured because the Euro-zone is in big shit and LE has had a gutsful of paying.

Long ago they were told to listen.

In the end, you reap what you sow.

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#68 SW Sailor

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:06 AM




We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


One design 45ft boats with a scarce few actually paid for and the rest loaned by Larry. Ya that sounds real successful .

I don't think the quality of the event is impacted as to whether the boats are paid for our not, and I'm not sure anyone here knows the facts anyway.

Looking forward to seeing if TC has improved, how Nathan will do with TK, if two boat practice has helped Artemis, and where LR stacks up in the line-up.

If the winds are a steady 14 to 16 sea breeze as indicated, this should be a good event as many of the teams should have improved.



The quality of the sailing is not but the term " success " absolutly is .

Depends on one's definition of success. I've never been married to the concept of commercializing the AC, and many hear struggle to separate the two when if comes to ones position. As far as I'm concerned the success of the event will be determined largely by the quality of the racing, and the fleet is of sufficient size to provide this along with the quality of the sailors. If viewership and attendance is up great, if not it's certainly not a loss to me if those watching can't appreciate high quality sailing. By in large, the event has to sell itself and I have little if any influence over that so I simply don't care.

As it is with 9 teams, you already have a significant stratification across the teams. Can you imagine the stratification of teams if you lower the bar to the point where you have 20 or so teams competing ? Imagine an event with 7 good teams and 13 Kithcarts out there tooling around in high speed boats.

No thanks - this is the AC and not a demolition derby on the water.

#69 SimonN

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:21 AM





We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


One design 45ft boats with a scarce few actually paid for and the rest loaned by Larry. Ya that sounds real successful .

I don't think the quality of the event is impacted as to whether the boats are paid for our not, and I'm not sure anyone here knows the facts anyway.

Looking forward to seeing if TC has improved, how Nathan will do with TK, if two boat practice has helped Artemis, and where LR stacks up in the line-up.

If the winds are a steady 14 to 16 sea breeze as indicated, this should be a good event as many of the teams should have improved.



The quality of the sailing is not but the term " success " absolutly is .

Depends on one's definition of success. I've never been married to the concept of commercializing the AC, and many hear struggle to separate the two when if comes to ones position. As far as I'm concerned the success of the event will be determined largely by the quality of the racing, and the fleet is of sufficient size to provide this along with the quality of the sailors. If viewership and attendance is up great, if not it's certainly not a loss to me if those watching can't appreciate high quality sailing. By in large, the event has to sell itself and I have little if any influence over that so I simply don't care.

As it is with 9 teams, you already have a significant stratification across the teams. Can you imagine the stratification of teams if you lower the bar to the point where you have 20 or so teams competing ? Imagine an event with 7 good teams and 13 Kithcarts out there tooling around in high speed boats.

No thanks - this is the AC and not a demolition derby on the water.

You seem to be rather confused. The ACWS in AC45's has little relevence to the AC other than borrowing its name and that a few of the comptitors are also going to compete in the (LV and) AC. The boats are different and the formats are different. You cannot conclude that because individual ACWS events seem to be a success that the AC is a success. As a series, the ACWS is in trouble. It cannot get enough venues with only 4 venues in 2 countries in the next year. It has failed to secure major sponsorship. If the stories are correct (there is no smoke without fire so there must be some truth), many of the teams have relied on the generosity of the defender in order to be able to compete. All told, the ACWS is currently unsustainable. What makes this even more worrying is that the only reason why the teams that are going to make it to the AC72 stage are competing is because it is compulsory. I am pretty sure that ETNZ, Artemis and LR would rather not be there but instead, getting on with the real work.

If the AC follows the lead of the ACWS, it will be in serious trouble.

#70 Indio

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:01 AM


Depends on one's definition of success. I've never been married to the concept of commercializing the AC, and many hear struggle to separate the two when if comes to ones position. As far as I'm concerned the success of the event will be determined largely by the quality of the racing, and the fleet is of sufficient size to provide this along with the quality of the sailors. If viewership and attendance is up great, if not it's certainly not a loss to me if those watching can't appreciate high quality sailing. By in large, the event has to sell itself and I have little if any influence over that so I simply don't care.

As it is with 9 teams, you already have a significant stratification across the teams. Can you imagine the stratification of teams if you lower the bar to the point where you have 20 or so teams competing ? Imagine an event with 7 good teams and 13 Kithcarts out there tooling around in high speed boats.

No thanks - this is the AC and not a demolition derby on the water.

You seem to be rather confused. The ACWS in AC45's has little relevence to the AC other than borrowing its name and that a few of the comptitors are also going to compete in the (LV and) AC. The boats are different and the formats are different. You cannot conclude that because individual ACWS events seem to be a success that the AC is a success. As a series, the ACWS is in trouble. It cannot get enough venues with only 4 venues in 2 countries in the next year. It has failed to secure major sponsorship. If the stories are correct (there is no smoke without fire so there must be some truth), many of the teams have relied on the generosity of the defender in order to be able to compete. All told, the ACWS is currently unsustainable. What makes this even more worrying is that the only reason why the teams that are going to make it to the AC72 stage are competing is because it is compulsory. I am pretty sure that ETNZ, Artemis and LR would rather not be there but instead, getting on with the real work.

If the AC follows the lead of the ACWS, it will be in serious trouble.

He's not SWSimpleton for no reason Posted Image

#71 dogwatch

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:07 AM

No reset then, just business as usual.


Not really. Use of an MC class for just a single AC cycle would be unprecedented.

Constraint of AC designs to the parameter of a class rule (rather than DoG parameters or another simple length restriction) - specifically the J-class of the Universal Rule - was suggested by Lipton in 1907 in response to the cost escalation involved with the Reliance defence of 1903. However this proposal was denied by the NYYC. Finally however in 1930 it was agreed that J-class yachts would be used and that class was adopted through three Cup cycles although once again, by 1937 cost escalation had become an issue for both defenders and challengers. After the WWII hiatus, 12M yachts were used from 1958 to 1987 through ten Cup cycles. Following the DoG match episode of 1988, the IACC rule was used in the next five Cup cycles.

LE's remarks, echoed by RC, suggest that the AC72 would not be used should OR be the AC35 defender and from GD's comments it is safe to assume ETNZ, if the defender, would also propose a less expensive class. Therefore unless we believe that another challenger would 1. win and 2. retain the AC72 when all around them were calling for a smaller boat, we can assume that AC34 shall be the one and only hurrah of the AC72 class. This would not be "business as usual". On the contrary, it would be the first time a developed class rule (in the modern sense) was used for only a single MC AC cycle.

#72 dogwatch

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:27 AM

The ACWS in AC45's has little relevence to the AC other than borrowing its name and that a few of the comptitors are also going to compete in the (LV and) AC. The boats are different and the formats are different.


It's not as simple as that though. The governance processes and bodies are common and of course the ACWS is of course theoretically compulsory for LV/AC wannabes (ducking the issue of the late entry of LR).

What is however true is that the outcome of ACWS regattas or the series has sod all relevance to the LV or AC. Theoretically it could have affected seedings for the LVC but that's clearly going to be a non-issue.

#73 dogwatch

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:35 AM

We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


A generous and rather prosperous neighbour rented an entire ch‚teau hotel in France for his birthday and paid all bills for the weekend. The party was a great success but unfortunately I'm not in a position to respond in kind. Larry knows how to throw a party too but we are seeing that even Larry's generosity has bounds and it hardly seems likely that any alternative defender would act as such a freely spending host.

#74 SW Sailor

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:36 AM




I don't think the quality of the event is impacted as to whether the boats are paid for our not, and I'm not sure anyone here knows the facts anyway.

Looking forward to seeing if TC has improved, how Nathan will do with TK, if two boat practice has helped Artemis, and where LR stacks up in the line-up.

If the winds are a steady 14 to 16 sea breeze as indicated, this should be a good event as many of the teams should have improved.



The quality of the sailing is not but the term " success " absolutly is .

Depends on one's definition of success. I've never been married to the concept of commercializing the AC, and many hear struggle to separate the two when if comes to ones position. As far as I'm concerned the success of the event will be determined largely by the quality of the racing, and the fleet is of sufficient size to provide this along with the quality of the sailors. If viewership and attendance is up great, if not it's certainly not a loss to me if those watching can't appreciate high quality sailing. By in large, the event has to sell itself and I have little if any influence over that so I simply don't care.

As it is with 9 teams, you already have a significant stratification across the teams. Can you imagine the stratification of teams if you lower the bar to the point where you have 20 or so teams competing ? Imagine an event with 7 good teams and 13 Kithcarts out there tooling around in high speed boats.

No thanks - this is the AC and not a demolition derby on the water.

You seem to be rather confused. The ACWS in AC45's has little relevence to the AC other than borrowing its name and that a few of the comptitors are also going to compete in the (LV and) AC. The boats are different and the formats are different. You cannot conclude that because individual ACWS events seem to be a success that the AC is a success. As a series, the ACWS is in trouble. It cannot get enough venues with only 4 venues in 2 countries in the next year. It has failed to secure major sponsorship. If the stories are correct (there is no smoke without fire so there must be some truth), many of the teams have relied on the generosity of the defender in order to be able to compete. All told, the ACWS is currently unsustainable. What makes this even more worrying is that the only reason why the teams that are going to make it to the AC72 stage are competing is because it is compulsory. I am pretty sure that ETNZ, Artemis and LR would rather not be there but instead, getting on with the real work.

If the AC follows the lead of the ACWS, it will be in serious trouble.


No confusion at all - go back and reread my comments. Not too difficult to understand the difference and relationship between the ACWS and the AC, but it was established as a lead-up event to the AC and their is good reason the AC45 platform was developed for the ACWS - to bring potential AC teams down the winged cat curve. It's not as if the ACWS is being raced in Mac 26's.

I believe every team in the ACWS has aspirations to get to the AC, whether it be AC34 or AC35, assuming a successful defense, and equally I'm not sure any ACWS team has sole aspiration to just win the ACWS barring funding - but maybe you can shed some light on which teams they are. I also doubt any teams are pursuing sponsorship funds based solely on the goal of winning ACWS. An interim goal, sure, the end game, I don't think so.

Would interest in the ACWS exist if the AC didn't ? Maybe not, but that's not the case is it ?


And where have I concluded that if ACWS events are successful that the AC will be successful ? Will their be a correlation ? Possibly, but why don't you highlight where I said so before accusing me of statements I didn't make ?

If you're looking to start a debate on the financial success of the ACWS take it up with someone else because I don't care. I stated my definition of success pretty clearly as being the quality of the racing, not the commercial success.

As far as how correctly everyone predicted this to turn out, numerous statements were made here which have been disproven. Such as, no venue was ever going to pay a cent to host the event, and further, no event was ever going to be held in Italy because the governments are all broke and politics is in a state of chaos, or have you forgotten those claims which were reiterated several times over the course of several months by people in the know ? What I've said under a hail of criticism from before Cascais is give it a frigging chance and let it play out. They have how many more events ? And the first on the SF Bay has yet to be staged.

Like I said, I've not been an advocate of the commercialization of the ACWS or the AC for that matter, but feel free to drag someone else into those discussions. I'd like to see all the teams complete in all the ACWS events, and I hope the ACWS events help teams develop skills and gain sponsorships to get to the LV series. Just a thought Posted Image

#75 dogwatch

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 07:37 AM

I doubt there is anyone willing to forecast the future craft for the AC.

Not LE, RC or GD.


I think you need to study LE's remarks again.

#76 Rennmaus

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:49 AM

Looks like the AC/ACWS as it was planned initially has failed. This does not mean that the events will be crap, that there will not be spectacular and entertaining sailing and that we will not enjoy watching. But apparently, and now admitted by LE and RC as well as shown by the ACEA personnel changes, the initial targets are not met. Surprising? No, and no reason to cry either, because we will love the AC in each and every form anyway. Keep in mind, depending on the source, about 70-90% of projects fail (do not meet all targets), so it's no shame to have to re-define the project later to align the scope with reality and feasibility.

#77 seis

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:44 AM

+1

#78 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 02:15 PM


Right, I allways thought that the main problem was the confusion between AC45 and the Cup. I am convinced it would be easier for the teams to find money for their AC72 if the two events were detached.
If we want to keep both one should be a World cup, the other the Americas Cup.

While I understand your sentiments and have some sympathy for what you say, I am not sure you have really hit the nail on the head. I support the idea that a series of regattas in teh years leading up to the LV and AC are important. It "Acts" were one of the great successes from AC32. This sort of series gives the sponsors real and valuable extra exposure and is essential, so the idea is sound. I think, however, there have been 2 problems with the execution. The first is the 2 different types of boat. I think using the AC45's has simply highlighted the prolems with the AC72 - it's new, the development cycle is long and expensive, and the learning curve is very steep. Overall, it highlighted the risks. The second problem was the blurring of the boundaries between the cup and the world series. Having the Americas Cup World Champion was and still is rather confusing. where does that sit against winning the Americas Cup. How can somebody be the World Champion but not win the cup?

Maybe the issues will clear once the WS is sailed in AC72's. The problem is that by then, it will be far too late. Of course, there will be those who say, as above, it takes 2 cycles for it all to bed in. Well, the Acts worked first time in AC32. This is the second cycle of this sort of series and it hasn't gone anywhere near as well.


I know that some teams said the ACWS gave them exposure and helped them find sponsors. However I am not sure they realize the confusion it creates with sponsors and thus the non visible loss. That is like trying to promote F1 with karts and a complicated systems between the promotion races and the real ones.
I agree with your last proposition, it will be clear once the LV is sailed with the AC72, but it will be too late. For sure RC is telling Larry that it will be better at the next AC, but we don't know who will be the defender.
And we have another question mark, the AC72 seems very exciting but we still don't know if they will survive + 30 knots.
An AC72 demolition derby would be the last nail of the AC34 coffin.

#79 ~HHN92~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:06 PM

Look, there is still a long way to go, and a lot to happen before the AC proper begins. 1987, which is considered one of the greatest, started out with about 20 some potential challengers. It came down to 13, one of which was the Courageous team which dropped-out early in the first round. Even DC, the eventual winner, was struggling to raise the money and left the team in between rounds to go back to the states and fund raise. Many questioned this as it seemed to be important for him to be in Freo working with the team in the down times. Then you had teams like Eagle, Steak n Kidney, Azzura, Heart of America, and Blackallers USA that did not have the funds and only built or raced one boat. Even the US in '74 were on shaky ground with the oil crisis and recession; Courageous was almost not built, it was put on hold at one point and that is when they lost Ficker as skipper.


So, overall this is not the grand plan but it is still a long way from failure. Like SWS stated, I am not a big fan of the commercialization of the AC, but look forward to great racing no matter how they get there. That is all that really matters.

#80 acintel

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:26 PM

We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


You are once again showing all you ignorance. Act 4 was in Valencia, Act 6 was in Trapani. Live national television as well. At the time 12 TEAMS racing. OK less exciting boats, but still.
You'll say: "yes but this is only the 4th ACWS". Not impressed. Let's see what will be the coverage of the 6th event.

#81 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 03:59 PM


We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


You are once again showing all you ignorance. Act 4 was in Valencia, Act 6 was in Trapani. Live national television as well. At the time 12 TEAMS racing.

Okay genius, yes Act 4 was in Valencia as I suspected but didn't bother to check because the comparison actually means little, even if SimonN did try make it so. But since you argue the point here are the facts, fwiw.

From here Act 1 was in Merseilles. Acts 2,3,4,5 were all in Valencia. 6,7 in Malmo. 8,9 in Trapani. 10,11,12 also in Valencia. The number of teams in Acts 1,2,3,4 went 6,8,8,12.

ACWS 1,2,3,4 will have been in four cities not two, and with teams at 8,8,8,9 syndicates and 9,9,9,11 boats. With AR2 and BAR joining by SF, 10 boats, 12 teams.

I honestly don't remember if any there was any live TV coverage in the US of ~any~ of the Acts. The (at-the-time-obscure) Versus cable channel never showed anything-AC32 live until iirc all the way to the LV Semi's. 10 hours of national live coverage on Mediaset Italy Ch 1 strikes me as pretty big, regardless what Act 4 in Vlc may also have had on the air over there. Sky has good reach too, right? NBC will cover on Sunday, live nationally in the US. Not bad!

#82 Rennmaus

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:05 PM

Will you guys in the US still have access to the YouTube broadcast/replays? I am asking because the ProxTube addon does not use Russian proxys anymore, but servers in the USA, so this would not help anymore.

#83 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 04:06 PM

No idea on that. Am hoping Sunday is available live on all the YT channels, but don't think we know yet.

Worst case, can DVR it in HD and catch the on-board replays later?

My understanding is that the deal in NZ allows them access to all on-line feeds, live, as long as you tune to that TV station's website - even when live also on TV.

#84 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:59 PM

RC:
It was a good strategy actually not to give them the rights right through to the Americaís Cup because now everyone agrees the product is worth a rights fee. We can now start negotiating television deals appropriate for the coverage because the quality of the coverage is very good.

VSail.info: So, right now, would you state you are satisfied with the current situation of the Americaís Cup?

Russell Coutts: There are, obviously, parts Iím happy with and parts Iím still unhappy with.

VSail.info: Such as?

Russell Coutts: The big focus right now is to bring more commercial partners. We have some excellent partners right now. Louis Vuitton has been a fantastic partner for years now and still continues to be. Obviously, Puma is a great achievement and we expect to have more to announce soon. We had a very good offer recently in one of the key categories but I canít say more than that at this stage. Things are starting to move now but there is still a lot of work to do.

VSail.info: Is Larry Ellison happy with the current situation of the Americaís Cup?

Russell Coutts: Yes and no. Heís very happy with the television product and he considers it a major step forward. He would have liked us to have had more commercial support today but you know, in a way, perhaps the time line was a little optimistic from day one because we didnít have a television product. If you havenít got a television product itís hard to sell the event to commercial sponsors. Now that we have that and we have real numbers in terms of valuation and so forth we are in a much better position today than we were six or seven months ago.

For the rest of this story click here <br clear="all"> by Pierre Orphanidis



#85 acintel

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:09 PM



We're going to see probably 11 AC45s in Naples, ten hours of it broadcast live, nationally in Italy, and several teams have legitimate shots at the podium.

I'd say that's a pretty big success compared to any of the AC32 Acts, surely compared to Act 4 wherever that was?


You are once again showing all you ignorance. Act 4 was in Valencia, Act 6 was in Trapani. Live national television as well. At the time 12 TEAMS racing.

Okay genius, yes Act 4 was in Valencia as I suspected but didn't bother to check because the comparison actually means little, even if SimonN did try make it so. But since you argue the point here are the facts, fwiw.

From here Act 1 was in Merseilles. Acts 2,3,4,5 were all in Valencia. 6,7 in Malmo. 8,9 in Trapani. 10,11,12 also in Valencia. The number of teams in Acts 1,2,3,4 went 6,8,8,12.

ACWS 1,2,3,4 will have been in four cities not two, and with teams at 8,8,8,9 syndicates and 9,9,9,11 boats. With AR2 and BAR joining by SF, 10 boats, 12 teams.

I honestly don't remember if any there was any live TV coverage in the US of ~any~ of the Acts. The (at-the-time-obscure) Versus cable channel never showed anything-AC32 live until iirc all the way to the LV Semi's. 10 hours of national live coverage on Mediaset Italy Ch 1 strikes me as pretty big, regardless what Act 4 in Vlc may also have had on the air over there. Sky has good reach too, right? NBC will cover on Sunday, live nationally in the US. Not bad!


Actually your numbering is correct, (and I was wrong) but what you missed is that the fleet race had a number and the match race has another number. That was a stupid idea from ehman. but it still was 11 days racing.
I am not speaking about ACWS TV but was reacting on your criticisms on Acts TV. What I see is that you keep repeating what ACWS TV is. Not bad I agree. It doesn't make the Acts one bad.





#86 ~Stingray~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:12 PM

Actually your numbering is correct, (and I was wrong) but what you missed is that the fleet race had a number and the match race has another number.

Did miss that.

#87 Te Kooti

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 08:59 PM

If (and when) these Naples festivities get broadcast (on YT) could someone advise the peasants who are sitting at home working on other projects?

And thus vulnerable to the distractions of sail racing.

#88 SimonN

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:29 PM

Okay genius, yes Act 4 was in Valencia as I suspected but didn't bother to check because the comparison actually means little, even if SimonN did try make it so. But since you argue the point here are the facts, fwiw.

From here Act 1 was in Merseilles. Acts 2,3,4,5 were all in Valencia. 6,7 in Malmo. 8,9 in Trapani. 10,11,12 also in Valencia. The number of teams in Acts 1,2,3,4 went 6,8,8,12.

ACWS 1,2,3,4 will have been in four cities not two, and with teams at 8,8,8,9 syndicates and 9,9,9,11 boats. With AR2 and BAR joining by SF, 10 boats, 12 teams.

I honestly don't remember if any there was any live TV coverage in the US of ~any~ of the Acts. The (at-the-time-obscure) Versus cable channel never showed anything-AC32 live until iirc all the way to the LV Semi's. 10 hours of national live coverage on Mediaset Italy Ch 1 strikes me as pretty big, regardless what Act 4 in Vlc may also have had on the air over there. Sky has good reach too, right? NBC will cover on Sunday, live nationally in the US. Not bad!

The simple fact is that the difference between the Acts and the ACWS is that the Acts were sailed in the ACC boats by teams who all went on to compete in the LV or AC. You cannot get more relevent than that. The ACWS is being sailed in boats that aren't going to be used in the AC and it looks like only 40% of the teams will be competing in the LV/AC.

I am not saying that the ACWS events aren't any good. I am simply saying they have no relevence to the AC. I am also arguing that while the events might seem good to those interested in sailing, they have done little to give confidence to potential sponsors due to a number of major screw ups. First, there has been the whole debacle of the lack of events and venues. In this regard, the ESS has really shown how badly the ACWS has done. Secondly, the inability of AC Alphabet to pull in the sponsors has been even more highlighted. We all know that LV have a long term association with all things AC, so claiming success having them involved is mute. Puma is the only other headline sponsor. Clearly this is an area that even RC is showing disapointment with.

You cannot judge the ACWS on the success of the individual events. It needs to be seen in the context of the larger AC picture and in that regard, it has fallen short. The reasons why it has fallen short are complex. Blame the economy, blame, Woth-less, blame the vision for the ACWS or even for the whole AC. In part, all have been an influence. The question is whether it could have been done differently. I am guessing that the OR fanboys will say that hindsight is a wonderful thing. Others pointed to the most of the problems from the beginning. Maybe those people simply made a lucky guess ;)

#89 ~HHN92~

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:35 PM

Piss on all this statistics stuff, let's just effing see what we get in the end.



I am really getting tired of all this BS, which is way worse than what we discussed over AC33, And from the pm's I receive there are quite a few others that are tired of it too.



Just lay off of it and lets see and enjoy what we get. We are effing lucky to get any of it at all.



Just let it go.........................................whiny bastards.

#90 SW Sailor

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 10:46 PM

Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.

#91 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 11:25 PM

Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.


Fact is that EB did much better with not very exciting boats, Where is the problem ?

#92 ~HHN92~

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:30 AM


Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.


Fact is that EB did much better with not very exciting boats, Where is the problem ?



You're proving it. Keep it up.

#93 SimonN

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:34 AM

Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.

Same old stuck record. If you really think that LE/GGYC/OR hasn't got the same power, you have been drinking the koolaid too long. Many of the teams competing are doing so because of the generosity of the defender and some of the teams that aren't have been excluded simply because the defender has made a judgement that they don't want them there. While I happen to agree with at least one of those decisions, it doesn't change the fact that it was the defender who made the decisions, either by deliberate exclusion or by simply not supporting a team in the way others were being supported.

The thing I still cannot get my head around is that many Americans seem to think that this is a matter of language and legality. If the language looks good and it is deed legal, it's OK but exactly the same thing is totally wrong worded or isn't deed legal, it is a travisty. As I have said before, whether you are getting screwed legally or illegally, it doesn't change the fact you are getting screwed.

#94 ro!

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:45 AM

Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.



We could also be watching TP90's racing in San Francisco Bay in 30knts, which would be just as exciting as 45's, with more teams and a whole lot more relevent to sailing as most of us know it...

#95 maxmini

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:56 AM


Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.



We could also be watching TP90's racing in San Francisco Bay in 30knts, which would be just as exciting as 45's, with more teams and a whole lot more relevent to sailing as most of us know it...


Agreed , without a doubt !

#96 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:58 AM

Si, apologies for this but: your long-ass political rants are still full of shit.

And it is not just you, there are a lot of binary Yes or No
Judgements being made across a broad set of attributes;, generally with no decently empirical measurements by which to base those judgements; and because the results are still to be seen, seem to be predispositioned by deep negativity towards RC for historical reasons where he's kicked certain peoples' asses, including despite your constant backpedalling, your obvious hero EB whose arguments you defended even through multiple deaths.

HHN calls out the 'whiny bastards.' I call on you to finally drop all the whiny old lady crap. Your labeling everything binarily an outright 'failure' carries no serious weight, except for as baggage you're still carrying from past history, you having gotten your and EB's arguments ass-kicked 13 out of 14 times, the one exception being another backfire.

Try to denigrate the ACWS as much as you want; try to pretend that it puts a halo on EB's head; that is just all the more just stupid old-lady-handbag-swinging argument outta you. NOTHING about the old Acts measures up to what we have seen so far in only just three ACWS/AC45 events. This shit is a fantastic change - Your constant argumentativeness won't change any of it.

Naples will rock! :) I hope and expect your buddy Nathan O will help drive that point home.

#97 eric e

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 01:11 AM

I am really getting tired of all this BS, which is way worse than what we discussed over AC33, And from the pm's I receive there are quite a few others that are tired of it too.
Just lay off of it and lets see and enjoy what we get. We are effing lucky to get any of it at all.
Just let it go.........................................whiny bastards.


as above

disappointed and losing interest

time for a bit of a forum holiday methinks






#98 SimonN

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:33 AM

Si, apologies for this but: your long-ass political rants are still full of shit.

And it is not just you, there are a lot of binary Yes or No
Judgements being made across a broad set of attributes;, generally with no decently empirical measurements by which to base those judgements; and because the results are still to be seen, seem to be predispositioned by deep negativity towards RC for historical reasons where he's kicked certain peoples' asses, including despite your constant backpedalling, your obvious hero EB whose arguments you defended even through multiple deaths.

HHN calls out the 'whiny bastards.' I call on you to finally drop all the whiny old lady crap. Your labeling everything binarily an outright 'failure' carries no serious weight, except for as baggage you're still carrying from past history, you having gotten your and EB's arguments ass-kicked 13 out of 14 times, the one exception being another backfire.

Try to denigrate the ACWS as much as you want; try to pretend that it puts a halo on EB's head; that is just all the more just stupid old-lady-handbag-swinging argument outta you. NOTHING about the old Acts measures up to what we have seen so far in only just three ACWS/AC45 events. This shit is a fantastic change - Your constant argumentativeness won't change any of it.

Naples will rock! :) I hope and expect your buddy Nathan O will help drive that point home.

It's funny when the shoe is on the other foot, how you are unable to be objective. You have been so blindly sprouting the party line, you seem to be unable to think for yourself. But I can understand that. It must be hard for you when almost everything you have been posting is now being countered by either reality, for instance the number of entries you said there would be (was it 10, or 12, I cannot remember) or by the very people you have been trying to defend (numbers aren't important!). You have had no issue with attacking others for screwing up the Cup but when your "bosses" do so, you get all upset when others call them out. Well, shit happens and what goes around, comes around. Suck it up big boy, becasue all evidence suggests that there is lots more to come.

As for the ACWS, when will you realise that it is irrelevent to the AC? I am sure that Naples will be a great success and I hope Nathan does well, but I can assure you he is under no illusion about the relationship between the ACWS and the AC. It is a shame that you are under an illusion that it is relevent. You should have heard comments from the OR boys about the ACWS this summer. there is no doubt they love the sailing, but it is also clear that in terms of winning the AC, the ACWS is a distraction.

#99 SW Sailor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:43 AM


Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.

Same old stuck record. If you really think that LE/GGYC/OR hasn't got the same power, you have been drinking the koolaid too long. Many of the teams competing are doing so because of the generosity of the defender and some of the teams that aren't have been excluded simply because the defender has made a judgement that they don't want them there. While I happen to agree with at least one of those decisions, it doesn't change the fact that it was the defender who made the decisions, either by deliberate exclusion or by simply not supporting a team in the way others were being supported.

The thing I still cannot get my head around is that many Americans seem to think that this is a matter of language and legality. If the language looks good and it is deed legal, it's OK but exactly the same thing is totally wrong worded or isn't deed legal, it is a travisty. As I have said before, whether you are getting screwed legally or illegally, it doesn't change the fact you are getting screwed.

Since you have a bee in your pants about the abuse of powers, I'll leave you with what I think are a few good examples;

"Forum: ACM shall establish and invite aCompetitors' Commission... as aforum to exchange information and to consult. The Competitors' Commissionshall have no voting powers... and has no power to amend this Protocol orany other Applicable Documents."

Last time I checked the challengers can vote on changes with the 34th protocol.

Or in terms of a succession cOR, if needed;

Selection of an alternative Challengerof Record: Upon thewithdrawal or disqualification of the Challenger of Record, SNG shallselect, at its sole and
exclusive discretion, a new or an existing ChallengingCompetitor to be the new Challenger ofRecord."

A little different than the protocol defined process as in AC34.

And since your focused on the abuse of powers, this gem should also be included;

" Trials and Challenger Selections Format:The trials and challengerselection format shall be announced by ACM when announcing the schedule. It mayprovide for the defender an option to participate wholly or partly at it'sdiscretion in the Trials and Challenger selection processÖ

Seems pretty fair eh ? OR said long ago they did not think this was fair and would not do so, but that has also been ignored.

Independent race management ? I agree Barclay should not be involved, no question, but the rulings that have come down seem a lot more fair and independent than the handling of the TNZ protest of Alinghi's locking main halyard that got disallowed, but maybe you thought that was a fair ruling.

And the single most important point that has been constantly overlooked is the fact that the playing field has been significantly leveled, more so than in any past Cup. I believe the AC72 rule was published in October 2010 (all of two weeks late) for all to benefit from. Is that the transparency you were commenting about, or was it something they didn't already know that they didn't communicate, which seems to be your bitch ?

I guess that's LE abusing his powers.

#100 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:49 AM



Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.


Fact is that EB did much better with not very exciting boats, Where is the problem ?



You're proving it. Keep it up.

Proving what ?
You found it pleasant to bash EB, and not you are not able to defend you own camp ?
Fact is that new boats are really fun to watch (mainly for me a cat sailor), but Larry is failing where EB succeeded, and in his own city .
Yes, Ernesto must be laughing his ass off now, and I understand Larry must be mad.

But don't be mistaken, first I am an AC and sailing fan, I'm also the first to applaud good points like the boat, the graphics, and the images, I watch the each race when I am not sailing or working.

Seems that some of the old OR fan suck.




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