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Russell Coutts talks to Zerogradinord


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#101 SW Sailor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:04 AM


Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.



We could also be watching TP90's racing in San Francisco Bay in 30knts, which would be just as exciting as 45's, with more teams and a whole lot more relevent to sailing as most of us know it...

So ring up EB and tell him to do so. I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up for a still borne concept so that at least gets you two boats. Who is going to buy the remaining 9 boats ?

You can watch the two white elephants lumbering around at 10 knots while buffing your headers in boredom, I'll be watching the AC72's with wings blasting around at 35 knots.

#102 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:09 AM

AC72's with wings blasting around at 35 knots.


With that real show, how can you explain that ACEA has been less successful to find a sponsor than all actual challengers did ?

#103 SW Sailor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:19 AM

That's it, keep it up.

#104 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:32 AM

That's it, keep it up.


So glad to see you as a troll in your own YC .:)

#105 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:54 AM

(EB) I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up

That is an interesting point that could pretty well explain what is happening now.

Keith Mills is considered to be a very wise business man. If he could have got some profits from participating to the AC, IMO, he would have participated.

Why did he refuse at the time:

- too expensive: $50 to $100 M

- small possibilities of winning with the defender controlling many of the parameters

- insecurity about the media, TV, internet etc.

- and, I guess, a sponsor pissed off by the long lawsuit that gave a bad reputation to the AC.


When was that,1 or 2 years ago ? What did change since that time ? maybe it could explain the actual difficulties.

#106 SW Sailor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:11 AM


(EB) I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up

That is an interesting point that could pretty well explain what is happening now.

Keith Mills is considered to be a very wise business man. If he could have got some profits from participating to the AC, IMO, he would have participated.

If he is so smart when does the build of his EB 90 start ?

#107 sunseeker

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:14 AM


(EB) I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up

That is an interesting point that could pretty well explain what is happening now.

Keith Mills is considered to be a very wise business man. If he could have got some profits from participating to the AC, IMO, he would have participated.

Why did he refuse at the time:

- too expensive: $50 to $100 M

- small possibilities of winning with the defender controlling many of the parameters

- insecurity about the media, TV, internet etc.

- and, I guess, a sponsor pissed off by the long lawsuit that gave a bad reputation to the AC.


When was that,1 or 2 years ago ? What did change since that time ? maybe it could explain the actual difficulties.


Really, in the end what do mills and kithcart have in common?

Neither can find a way up enter the AC. Both all talk and no action.

#108 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:20 AM



(EB) I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up

That is an interesting point that could pretty well explain what is happening now.

Keith Mills is considered to be a very wise business man. If he could have got some profits from participating to the AC, IMO, he would have participated.

Why did he refuse at the time:

- too expensive: $50 to $100 M

- small possibilities of winning with the defender controlling many of the parameters

- insecurity about the media, TV, internet etc.

- and, I guess, a sponsor pissed off by the long lawsuit that gave a bad reputation to the AC.


When was that,1 or 2 years ago ? What did change since that time ? maybe it could explain the actual difficulties.


Really, in the end what do mills and kithcart have in common?

Neither can find a way up enter the AC. Both all talk and no action.

Maybe you should wait 16 days before talking ?

#109 SW Sailor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:24 AM

Maybe you should wait 16 days before talking ?

If you're so bullish maybe you should put your money where your mouth is or STFU.

Willing to make a US $1000 bet on the outcome or are you too chicken shit ?


As you like to say which is so gay, "I'm waiting".

#110 SW Sailor

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 04:38 AM

You are quick to shoot your mouth off but not very confident in what comes out of it.

Sounds like a troll to me.

Go back under your bridge and eat some river rats for dinner.

#111 SimonN

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:49 AM

Why all the talk of EB and why all the disrespect for Keith Mills. First, his achievements outside of sailing says he deserves respect, although i guess to Americans you only judge a person by the size of their bank account so you wouldn't understand. For that matter, his personal sailing achievements aren't too shabby either with real blue water experience.

Second, it seems he got it absolutely right. He said from the beginning that the event wouldn't be attractive to sponsors. He said that the uncertainties would be a real problem. He also said that the costs would be far higher than the defender was prepared to admit. In fact, I cannot think of anything he said that has proven to be wrong and I suspect he must be pretty happy with his decision, because the chances are that just like the majority of the teams, all he would have done is wasted a milliond in seed money and still not got to the main event. That seems pretty insightful to me, but then again, you OR fanboys seem to think that people need to compete in the cup and anybody who shows interest and then backs out is fair game to attack, when, in fact, it isn't compulsory at all. You also seem to think it is far smarter and better to have done what VO did and misjudge the whole situation than to be able to correctly analyse what was going on and make the right decision.

#112 Tony-F18

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 06:49 AM

To think that EB would be able to get 300m, or whatever it was that Valencia paid, in the current economic climate is simply dilussional.
Not sure how Spain was doing in 2007 but I doubt they had 10-20% unemployment, and had to cut their national budget by 18(!)%.

#113 maxmini

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 07:26 AM

Why all the talk of EB and why all the disrespect for Keith Mills. First, his achievements outside of sailing says he deserves respect, although i guess to Americans you only judge a person by the size of their bank account so you wouldn't understand. For that matter, his personal sailing achievements aren't too shabby either with real blue water experience.

Second, it seems he got it absolutely right. He said from the beginning that the event wouldn't be attractive to sponsors. He said that the uncertainties would be a real problem. He also said that the costs would be far higher than the defender was prepared to admit. In fact, I cannot think of anything he said that has proven to be wrong and I suspect he must be pretty happy with his decision, because the chances are that just like the majority of the teams, all he would have done is wasted a milliond in seed money and still not got to the main event. That seems pretty insightful to me, but then again, you OR fanboys seem to think that people need to compete in the cup and anybody who shows interest and then backs out is fair game to attack, when, in fact, it isn't compulsory at all. You also seem to think it is far smarter and better to have done what VO did and misjudge the whole situation than to be able to correctly analyse what was going on and make the right decision.


KM did seem to have a pretty good idea as to how this would turn out after all .

#114 Tony-F18

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:11 AM

Why are we even still talking about KM or his Team Origin, it never competed in any AC and all they did was sail around on some old V5s.
IMHO one of KM main reasons for not entering AC34 is the Olympics where he is CEO or something.

#115 SimonN

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 10:05 AM

Why are we even still talking about KM or his Team Origin, it never competed in any AC and all they did was sail around on some old V5s.
IMHO one of KM main reasons for not entering AC34 is the Olympics where he is CEO or something.

The reasons why we are talking about him are 1. SW thought he be smart by using his name as an insult. 2. He is clear evidence that the problems that have led to teams not being able to raise money to enter were foreseeable. KM called RC/GGYC on them and has been proven right. The problem was that RC and his merry men were so cock-sure that they wouldn't listen to anybody else about anything. KM had clearly expressed his concerns to RC and if RC had listened to even half of them, I think we would have seen a lot more teams lining up for the LV without any loss of the excitement and spectacle.

And why go on about all of this when it cannot be changed? Because the same guy is still running the asylum. At least he is beginning to admit where they went wrong. However, I think that all but the most diehard supporters are now taking what the OR guys are saying with a great amount of sceptisism

#116 Indio

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:11 AM



(EB) I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up

That is an interesting point that could pretty well explain what is happening now.

Keith Mills is considered to be a very wise business man. If he could have got some profits from participating to the AC, IMO, he would have participated.

Why did he refuse at the time:

- too expensive: $50 to $100 M

- small possibilities of winning with the defender controlling many of the parameters

- insecurity about the media, TV, internet etc.

- and, I guess, a sponsor pissed off by the long lawsuit that gave a bad reputation to the AC.


When was that,1 or 2 years ago ? What did change since that time ? maybe it could explain the actual difficulties.


Really, in the end what do mills and kithcart have in common?

Neither can find a way up enter the AC. Both all talk and no action.


Actually, just about everything Sir Keith Mills raised right from the start has been borne out by the latest admissions from LE and RC. Sounds like a very astute assessment of the vapourware that was being spouted by OR & sundry at the time, and dutifully licked up and slobbered over by the OR sycophants on ACA.

#117 dogwatch

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:45 AM

And why go on about all of this when it cannot be changed? Because the same guy is still running the asylum. At least he is beginning to admit where they went wrong. However, I think that all but the most diehard supporters are now taking what the OR guys are saying with a great amount of sceptisism


Bloody hell Simon, nobody has ever accused me of pumping sunshine as far as OR goes but even I can see a lot that gives cause for hope in statements by RC and LE that, yes, more attention should have been paid to cost control and if they are in charge come AC35, presumably it will be. Is it really impossible for you to take that as a positive development?

#118 ~HHN92~

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:04 PM




Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.


Fact is that EB did much better with not very exciting boats, Where is the problem ?



You're proving it. Keep it up.

Proving what ?
You found it pleasant to bash EB, and not you are not able to defend you own camp ?
Fact is that new boats are really fun to watch (mainly for me a cat sailor), but Larry is failing where EB succeeded, and in his own city .
Yes, Ernesto must be laughing his ass off now, and I understand Larry must be mad.

But don't be mistaken, first I am an AC and sailing fan, I'm also the first to applaud good points like the boat, the graphics, and the images, I watch the each race when I am not sailing or working.

Seems that some of the old OR fan suck.


Look around and see who you do not see participating in this forum anymore. The list is much longer than the ones still here on a regular basis.



And it is not due totally to how the current AC cycle is going.


The difference between EB and LE is this: EB reached illegally to try and control all aspects of the AC cycle. LE reached legally to try to bring the AC to a greater audience. We'll never know how the illegal form would have been, and the jury is still out on how this one will be. Some positives so far, but some disappointments too. I thought the ACTS were a good idea at the time. The ACWS is a good program also, aided by the video and graphics coverage.


Look around, and observe the echo of the room..............................

#119 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:52 PM


Maybe you should wait 16 days before talking ?

If you're so bullish maybe you should put your money where your mouth is or STFU.

Willing to make a US $1000 bet on the outcome or are you too chicken shit ?


As you like to say which is so gay, "I'm waiting".

Eh, "Central Sailor of the Bay" still afraid to try a T with 20 knots of wind ? cold feet ?

And apparently your not able to respect your own promess to invite 20 bums for a drink ?

We all know you are THE SA troll, but more amusing is to watch you troll your own YC.:)

#120 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 12:54 PM




(EB) I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up

That is an interesting point that could pretty well explain what is happening now.

Keith Mills is considered to be a very wise business man. If he could have got some profits from participating to the AC, IMO, he would have participated.

Why did he refuse at the time:

- too expensive: $50 to $100 M

- small possibilities of winning with the defender controlling many of the parameters

- insecurity about the media, TV, internet etc.

- and, I guess, a sponsor pissed off by the long lawsuit that gave a bad reputation to the AC.


When was that,1 or 2 years ago ? What did change since that time ? maybe it could explain the actual difficulties.


Really, in the end what do mills and kithcart have in common?

Neither can find a way up enter the AC. Both all talk and no action.


Actually, just about everything Sir Keith Mills raised right from the start has been borne out by the latest admissions from LE and RC. Sounds like a very astute assessment of the vapourware that was being spouted by OR & sundry at the time, and dutifully licked up and slobbered over by the OR sycophants on ACA.

+1

#121 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:11 PM

As for the ACWS, when will you realise that it is irrelevent to the AC? I am sure that Naples will be a great success and I hope Nathan does well, but I can assure you he is under no illusion about the relationship between the ACWS and the AC. It is a shame that you are under an illusion that it is relevent. You should have heard comments from the OR boys about the ACWS this summer. there is no doubt they love the sailing, but it is also clear that in terms of winning the AC, the ACWS is a distraction.

You're the one trying to create another illusion, since nowhere do I argue that the relationship between the ACWS and the AC is (binarily) either relevant or not. It is more relevant to the build up to AC34 in some ways than in others.

What it mostly is for me, is good racing with good coverage in wing sailed cats, including being sailed by many who will likely be in the LV/AC. And while the AC45's likely will increasingly become distracting once the AC72's are built, if you'll stop and take notice of the evidence for a moment: the Big Four have all been practicing in smaller cats, and especially in AC45's. A lot. So for the time being they are hardly irrelevant even at the sailing level.

#122 ro!

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 02:29 PM



Agreed.

We could be watching boring EB90's lugging around a course in 10 knots of wind and 1 meter seas with any one of them likely to get chucked if EB decided he didn't like them.



We could also be watching TP90's racing in San Francisco Bay in 30knts, which would be just as exciting as 45's, with more teams and a whole lot more relevent to sailing as most of us know it...

So ring up EB and tell him to do so. I'm sure he'll get Keith Mills to sign up for a still borne concept so that at least gets you two boats. Who is going to buy the remaining 9 boats ?

You can watch the two white elephants lumbering around at 10 knots while buffing your headers in boredom, I'll be watching the AC72's with wings blasting around at 35 knots.


As usual in your efforts to slagg off and troll anyone with a different view from yours , you totally miss the point...

If you had ever seen Med Cup 52's in heavy air you would know how fast and exciting TP90's could have been in SF bay, had your heros lazza and russ listened to the challengers they polled, before pulling the 'russ and paul global world series of the world' 45's and 72's out of their ass...
The challengers would have got something they could afford to race and would be racing in boats that would be eligible for the AC, not some 1 design they are forced to buy from russel at $1M a copy...


I wouldn't ring eb if I could because I dislike him just as much as lazza, something else that flew over your head, but I suspect if eb and KM had entered 34 they would have been around longer than the 'fully funded' VO, greencom and aleph world beaters, and an Anslie skippered TP90 would have a chance of beating the lazza show instead of being hired out of the game by russ ...

#123 SimonN

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:03 PM


And why go on about all of this when it cannot be changed? Because the same guy is still running the asylum. At least he is beginning to admit where they went wrong. However, I think that all but the most diehard supporters are now taking what the OR guys are saying with a great amount of sceptisism


Bloody hell Simon, nobody has ever accused me of pumping sunshine as far as OR goes but even I can see a lot that gives cause for hope in statements by RC and LE that, yes, more attention should have been paid to cost control and if they are in charge come AC35, presumably it will be. Is it really impossible for you to take that as a positive development?

As I said, it is a start that they are admitting they got it wrong. However, some of the language now being used is just as scary - talk of one design or one design elements for instance. What is needed is for them to listen to others, and they show no sign of doing that yet. At the moment we have too little too late and no real change in attitude. If they were saying that they got certain things wrong and need to pay more attention to what the other teams want, I can assure you I will be leading the chorus of Halleluya!

#124 SimonN

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:14 PM

What it mostly is for me, is good racing with good coverage in wing sailed cats, including being sailed by many who will likely be in the LV/AC. And while the AC45's likely will increasingly become distracting once the AC72's are built, if you'll stop and take notice of the evidence for a moment: the Big Four have all been practicing in smaller cats, and especially in AC45's. A lot. So for the time being they are hardly irrelevant even at the sailing level.

You just cannot help but roll out the party line. The only reason why ETNZ and Artemis have trained in the AC45's is because they have to race them. They both have far better training and development boats. And from everything I have heard, the SL33's are proving to be far better for training and development than teh AC45's. LR is so late to the party that they have needed to sail the AC45's just to catch up, but then again, they don't need to do any development work yet. The only team who are using the AC45's seriously for developmenht are OR, who seem to own a whole fleet of tehm. I guess that even RC knows how LE would react if he asked for money for other training and development boats.

However, you keep missing the point. I have not said that the individual events in the ACWS are bad. I have said that AC Alphabet have screwed up, badly. Done right, the ACWS could have been far more relevent and it could have been a hook for sponsors. Great racing and great footage doesn't equal great sponsorship opportunity. I think it is you who is trying to blur the issues by saying that as the individual events are great, everything is OK.

#125 TRUTHPUPPETHATESUALL

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 03:24 PM


What it mostly is for me, is good racing with good coverage in wing sailed cats, including being sailed by many who will likely be in the LV/AC. And while the AC45's likely will increasingly become distracting once the AC72's are built, if you'll stop and take notice of the evidence for a moment: the Big Four have all been practicing in smaller cats, and especially in AC45's. A lot. So for the time being they are hardly irrelevant even at the sailing level.

You just cannot help but roll out the party line. The only reason why ETNZ and Artemis have trained in the AC45's is because they have to race them. They both have far better training and development boats. And from everything I have heard, the SL33's are proving to be far better for training and development than teh AC45's. LR is so late to the party that they have needed to sail the AC45's just to catch up, but then again, they don't need to do any development work yet. The only team who are using the AC45's seriously for developmenht are OR, who seem to own a whole fleet of tehm. I guess that even RC knows how LE would react if he asked for money for other training and development boats.

However, you keep missing the point. I have not said that the individual events in the ACWS are bad. I have said that AC Alphabet have screwed up, badly. Done right, the ACWS could have been far more relevent and it could have been a hook for sponsors. Great racing and great footage doesn't equal great sponsorship opportunity. I think it is you who is trying to blur the issues by saying that as the individual events are great, everything is OK.


TruthPuppet approved.

#126 maxmini

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:11 PM

There can not be any clearer indication of how far the Americas Cup has fallen then when one of the people in charge utters the term ONE DESIGN.

#127 dogwatch

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:19 PM

talk of one design or one design elements for instance.


"One design" was explicitly excluded by RC. "One design elements" were included and I'm not certain I'm keen on that but it depends on the elements. Winch pawls or entire wings?

#128 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:25 PM




America's Cup Costs Cut in Half
Press Release

America's Cup organizers have found ways to reduce competition costs for the next defense of the America's Cup. Sparked by changes to the San Francisco event plan, the regatta will be no longer be raced in AC72 yachts or AC45 yachts, but the new AC22.5 Class.

Russell Coutts denies that the San Francisco plans were the catalyst, though. "Actually, the inspiration was a half-hull model AC45 that Team Owner Larry Ellison presented to our crew following the ACWS in San Diego last fall. Larry saved a bit of money on the model by commissioning just a half-hull, and even more on the shipping costs, and that got me thinking...."

Posted Image


Grant Dalton, Head of Emirates Team New Zealand, jumped on the idea right away when it was proposed in a competitors meeting last January. "For a team that's working hard to scrape together every sponsorship dollar, we had been exploring along the same lines. Why build two hulls when you only need to sail on one of them at any time? We can downsize crew, to 2.5, though for humanitarian reasons we'll just round that down to an even two."

Fewer hulls, fewer rudders, fewer daggerboards, smaller crews, and decreased transport costs are all part of the equation. Likewise is the increased performance made possible through reduced windage and dead weight. Sail area to displacement ratio has gone up steeply, and if the crews do capsize, they won't have quite so far to fall.

Contd....

#129 maxmini

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:44 PM




America's Cup Costs Cut in Half
Press Release

America's Cup organizers have found ways to reduce competition costs for the next defense of the America's Cup. Sparked by changes to the San Francisco event plan, the regatta will be no longer be raced in AC72 yachts or AC45 yachts, but the new AC22.5 Class.

Russell Coutts denies that the San Francisco plans were the catalyst, though. "Actually, the inspiration was a half-hull model AC45 that Team Owner Larry Ellison presented to our crew following the ACWS in San Diego last fall. Larry saved a bit of money on the model by commissioning just a half-hull, and even more on the shipping costs, and that got me thinking...."

Posted Image


Grant Dalton, Head of Emirates Team New Zealand, jumped on the idea right away when it was proposed in a competitors meeting last January. "For a team that's working hard to scrape together every sponsorship dollar, we had been exploring along the same lines. Why build two hulls when you only need to sail on one of them at any time? We can downsize crew, to 2.5, though for humanitarian reasons we'll just round that down to an even two."

Fewer hulls, fewer rudders, fewer daggerboards, smaller crews, and decreased transport costs are all part of the equation. Likewise is the increased performance made possible through reduced windage and dead weight. Sail area to displacement ratio has gone up steeply, and if the crews do capsize, they won't have quite so far to fall.

Contd....


I knew it was only a matter of time . Monos are BACK :lol:

#130 ~Stingray~

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:45 PM

It is brilliant!

#131 pominfrance

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:46 PM

It is brilliant!


It would be brilliant if it wasn't so sad. So few teams, far too much money and a defending team that never won the event without it going through 2 years of litigation to do so. I forgot what their best result was in real Challenger racing?

#132 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 01:59 AM


It is brilliant!


It would be brilliant if it wasn't so sad. So few teams, far too much money and a defending team that never won the event without it going through 2 years of litigation to do so. I forgot what their best result was in real Challenger racing?

I think 3rd in 2003.

#133 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:16 AM



It is brilliant!


It would be brilliant if it wasn't so sad. So few teams, far too much money and a defending team that never won the event without it going through 2 years of litigation to do so. I forgot what their best result was in real Challenger racing?

I think 3rd in 2003.

Who since that time has better records, and who holds the Cup?

Pominfrance's brain is seriously humor-gene challenged if he didn't get the AFJ message anyway..

#134 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:45 AM

New Zealand. Came 2nd in 2003, Challenged (came 2nd again) in 2007, Currently leading the ACWS.

#135 dogwatch

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:10 AM

It is brilliant!


You are easily amused (which isn't a bad thing) but as an April Fool it is lame. A good April Fool leaves you wondering - can that be true? A perfect April Fool leaves the foolish in no doubt that it is true. This AF however Fools no-one.

#136 Te Kooti

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:26 AM


It is brilliant!


You are easily amused (which isn't a bad thing) but as an April Fool it is lame. A good April Fool leaves you wondering - can that be true? A perfect April Fool leaves the foolish in no doubt that it is true. This AF however Fools no-one.


Come on Dogmeister, while everything you say is correct, this one was pretty good.

What they forget to say was the fact splitting boats in half creates numerous extra hulls to be given to AC friends like Mascalzone, Origin etc etc.

Even convicts in Australia would take half a cat for the right price.

In addition, it immediately doubles the number of entrants and shuts up complainers on Sailing Anarchy.

#137 SimonN

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:30 AM

Who since that time has better records,

Now who really is being blind? Besides ETNZ, you might have forgotten that Alinghi won the LV in 2003, won the AC in 2003 and defended it in 2007. OR hasn't won the AC by fighting their way through the LV. They haven't even won the LV. IMO, both ETNZ and Alinghi have performed significantly better than OR has performed since OR was formed. In fact, if you consider MC AC's, Luna Rossa also performed as well as OR over the 2003/7 events. Sure, OR did a great job to win AC33, but that is rather a lot easier than winning the LV and then beating the defender in boats designed to a rule.Considering everything, not least the money spent, OR really hasn't been the force it should have been and I think even LE admits that. Despite the fact I don't like LE and am not that fond of RC, there is a small part of me that hopes OR does manage to defend otherwise they will go down in history as the team that couldn't win a "conventional" Cup. Of course, there is a bigger part of me that hopes they don't win :D

#138 Albatros

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:33 AM


Who since that time has better records,

Now who really is being blind? Besides ETNZ, you might have forgotten that Alinghi won the LV in 2003, won the AC in 2003 and defended it in 2007. OR hasn't won the AC by fighting their way through the LV. They haven't even won the LV. IMO, both ETNZ and Alinghi have performed significantly better than OR has performed since OR was formed. In fact, if you consider MC AC's, Luna Rossa also performed as well as OR over the 2003/7 events. Sure, OR did a great job to win AC33, but that is rather a lot easier than winning the LV and then beating the defender in boats designed to a rule.Considering everything, not least the money spent, OR really hasn't been the force it should have been and I think even LE admits that. Despite the fact I don't like LE and am not that fond of RC, there is a small part of me that hopes OR does manage to defend otherwise they will go down in history as the team that couldn't win a "conventional" Cup. Of course, there is a bigger part of me that hopes they don't win :D

OR did a great job ? their legal team you mean ? :D
you can expect the usual yada yada about evil Ernie going all illegal and bad Larry coming in as the white knight, but on the whole your recap is pretty much o.k., even up to the point that for credibility it would be better if OR wins a "fair and square" AC ... as fair and square as they allow it to be of course :rolleyes:

#139 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:06 PM

^ It's a little hard to critique OR's campaigns without also considering the changes in each campaign. They look good to me this time but: obviously, time will tell how well they Match up in the end.

#140 SimonN

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 02:11 PM

^ It's a little hard to critique OR's campaigns without also considering the changes in each campaign. They look good to me this time but: obviously, time will tell how well they Match up in the end.

Yes, they look good this time because they have outspent every other team and signed up people in ordedr to keep them away from other teams. ;) As for considering the changes each campaign, in case you have forgotten, there were significant changes at Alinghi and, to a lesser extent, at ETNZ. However, in the end, all that matters is the results. It is the only truth. Anything else is excuses.

#141 Te Kooti

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 06:38 PM

^ It's a little hard to critique OR's campaigns without also considering the changes in each campaign. They look good to me this time but: obviously, time will tell how well they Match up in the end.



OR looks good.

But, from the start, their campaigns have been burdened by 1. Too much money 2. Too many syndicate members 3. Looseness around the edges.

Long ago I watched the Chris Dickson era Oracle racing in the shed on Halsey St.

When the boss was way, numerous team members took very long lunch hours and seem to do SFA.

It looked like (and turned out to be) a flabby unfocussed effort.

Things were greatly improved in the DZ effort. I thought I detected tendencies from the past (in the DZ campaign). But was wrong.

This time the slimmed-down event will HELP, not HINDER the defender.

They should be grateful for the collapse of the LE/RC fantasy.

Who will win?

Part of the charm around AC34 is the fact we cannot be sure about who will come out on top.

I just hope breakage is not a major factor in the final result.

#142 SimonN

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:32 PM

ACWS 1,2,3,4 will have been in four cities not two, and with teams at 8,8,8,9 syndicates and 9,9,9,11 boats. With AR2 and BAR joining by SF, 10 boats, 12 teams.



#143 maxmini

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:54 PM


ACWS 1,2,3,4 will have been in four cities not two, and with teams at 8,8,8,9 syndicates and 9,9,9,11 boats. With AR2 and BAR joining by SF, 10 boats, 12 teams.


Ah yes , the good old days.

#144 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

LE reached legally to try to bring the AC to a greater audience.

Look around, and observe the echo of the room..............................


The poodle was a travesty of legality, the transfer to AR with the "one second late " was not considered illegal only because GD did not decide to attack it, and you still don't know if ADM will prove them illegal or not.

The echo is only due to the previous OR fanboys who left because they did not have skin thick enough to watch the white knight getting black and close to failure.

The pity is that they don't even realize that OR has never been so close from succeeding. They now have the images, the graphics and the TV deal, so the big US sponsor should come soon, and Russell has to stop micromanaging the races and sell his vision.
For sure if they had managed ADM properly, it would have helped them to have the AC at Oprah, but they prefered the court, what a terrible lack of judgment...

The only thing Larry needs is time, well, maybe ADM will save his dream :D.

#145 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:29 PM

ADM's lawsuit is a joke, give it up.

Apr 17 is only about if it gets kicked out instantly, or goes for a couple years - past AC34.

#146 ~Stingray~

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:50 PM

I agree that CK could have had a big deal on his hands, could have been a net positive to the AC. But there just doesn't seem to be any substance at all. Like you, CK is clinging to just a fairly far-out, somewhat bizarre fantasy.

And as to the 17th or far beyond, the chance that a judge would delay AC34 over his claims is vanishingly remote. ADM is not the Cup holder, or even a frkin challenger for it. The smartest thing the NYSC could do, is toss it out asap.

#147 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:56 PM

Edit:

Whether a joke or not if CK had been invited at Oprah with videos of the ACWS Larry would have touched the heart of America who never heard about sailing before.
As for the 17, the question is about standing and possibility to delay AC34, unless you are aware of negotiations that we don't know.

#148 Indio

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:06 AM

Russell's "new" hands-on approach is a tactical positioning to exit OR when they lose AC34. RC is better informed than anyone else about how OR's defence planning is coming along, and he can see the squiggles on the wall. He didn't need much convincing from LE to either shift sideways or shift out.

If RC were to bail before the AC34 finals, I'd expect him to bail in early 2013 and join Cayard...unless the Protocol specifically prohibits it.

#149 SW Sailor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:11 AM

April 1st was last Sunday.

Don't you have a boat to go fix ?

#150 Indio

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:13 AM

April 1st was last Sunday.

Don't you have a boat to go fix ?


Don't you have a brain to go find!?Posted Image

#151 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:25 AM

Russell's "new" hands-on approach is a tactical positioning to exit OR when they lose AC34. RC is better informed than anyone else about how OR's defence planning is coming along, and he can see the squiggles on the wall. He didn't need much convincing from LE to either shift sideways or shift out.

If RC were to bail before the AC34 finals, I'd expect him to bail in early 2013 and join Cayard...unless the Protocol specifically prohibits it.


Interesting point of view.
I have different interpretation though. RC agreed that Larry was happy and unhappy of what is going on now, happy of the technology and the images, unhappy of the revenues. IMO, Larry is not unhappy, he is mad to imagine Ernesgto laughing his ass off, and realizing that the dream he was sold is vaporware.

Also, it seems that RC is shifting his vision on numerous occasions now.

All this seems to show a person under pressure trying to find a solution and trying to fix the problem himself. If he succeeds, fine, if not Larry will send him back as a race manager as he needs him to win.
Obviously RC has back up solutions for himself. Artemis ? why not, or TNZ ? you are at the best place to know.

However, as I said earlier, I think RC is at his lowest now, but close to find a major sponsor, too late for more teams however.

#152 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:29 AM

April 1st was last Sunday.

Don't you have a boat to go fix ?


I found you on april fool, trying to avoid the flack from TE with your tin foil hat :)

Attached Files



#153 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:32 AM

... IMO, Larry is not unhappy, he is mad to imagine Ernesgto laughing his ass off,

Typical of you, TC, to try make everything so personal.

What on earth suggests that LE gives two shits about anything EB ever thinks? Lol! :)

Recent history suggests the exact opposite.

#154 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:42 AM


... IMO, Larry is not unhappy, he is mad to imagine Ernesto laughing his ass off,

Typical of you, TC, to try make everything so personal.

What on earth suggests that LE gives two shits about anything EB ever thinks? Lol! :)

Recent history suggests the exact opposite.


^^
Nice spin. Not personal ? Sure you remember what the rumors about Ernesto's wife here, Russells saying that Larry is a better sailer than Ernesto etc...

I have nothing to do with that, and everything to think it plays a role in the present chess game.

#155 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:47 AM

And you probably will keep dreaming everything up. Enjoy ;)

#156 Tornado-Cat

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:10 AM

And you probably will keep dreaming everything up. Enjoy ;)


Maybe we can wait the future makes us right,.... once again.

#157 SW Sailor

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:59 AM

Take your skirt off, leave your purse behind and give the drama a break - it is so weak and you are almost always wrong anyway.

#158 acintel

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:35 AM


ACWS 1,2,3,4 will have been in four cities not two, and with teams at 8,8,8,9 syndicates and 9,9,9,11 boats. With AR2 and BAR joining by SF, 10 boats, 12 teams.


Stingray, once again you are wrong.

They just announced 7 teams 9 boats for Naples. Downhill trend likely to continue until 2013

#159 ro!

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:26 PM



ACWS 1,2,3,4 will have been in four cities not two, and with teams at 8,8,8,9 syndicates and 9,9,9,11 boats. With AR2 and BAR joining by SF, 10 boats, 12 teams.


Stingray, once again you are wrong.

They just announced 7 teams 9 boats for Naples. Downhill trend likely to continue until 2013


Cue spinbot..

Losing a couple of bottom tier teams is good because with all the teams it was getting difficult to figure out who was who..all in all a win/win for lazza vision and the russ and paul global series of the world...

An unseen bonus, is that we will not have a bunch of french and spanish facebooker fans at the events...so getting a front row view will not be a problem for me...

#160 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:29 PM

They just announced 7 teams 9 boats for Naples. Downhill trend likely to continue until 2013

We lost two, and gained two, and BAR is in the pipeline. It's a decently sized fleet.

#161 RMK

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

Is Green Com out for good or are they taking a break until the Olympics are over ala BA?

#162 ro!

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 07:47 PM

Is Green Com out for good or are they taking a break until the Olympics are over ala BA?


Cue spinbot

er yes... we know they are full funded with an unusual 51M peso/lira budget for a two boat 72 campaign...

#163 SimonN

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:36 PM


They just announced 7 teams 9 boats for Naples. Downhill trend likely to continue until 2013

We lost two, and gained two, and BAR is in the pipeline. It's a decently sized fleet.

Spin, spin, spin!

The real news is that 2 teams that should be there are not. Those are both teams that had ambition to make it to the AC72 stage and the LV. If you think that is anything but bad and if you think that is offset by Luna Rossa (who we already knew about) and a team that isn't even there, you really need to stay off whatever meds that OR are giving you.

#164 ~Stingray~

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:20 PM

Nobody including me gave Aleph much of a chance to build an AC72.

But GCR definitely disappoints me. They basically announced they were funded, even said they were no longer pursuing any more sponsors; and as I wondered before, why would they lie?

But they also said in late December that they would be announcing one of the sponsors, in January. That deadline came and went, and now this? I'm stumped; not much reason left for optimism on that front.

It was an intriguing prospect, was set to root for those guys for several appealing reasons. Maybe someone should ask VS to get the skinny, maybe try get another interview with de Leo?

#165 dogwatch

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:23 AM

http://www.americasc...-ready-to-race/

No GCR as others have noted. Withdrawal of Aleph is on teams section of www.americascup.com, withdrawal of GCR is not. However:

21. REQUIREMENT TO RACE
21.1. Competitors are required to race in all regattas of the Event for which they are eligible.
Unless the Race Officer considers conditions too rough, the race committee intends to start
races when the approximate average true wind speed is between 3 and 33 knots as
measured on the race committee signal boat at 6m above the water.
21.2. Unless the Regatta Director is satisfied on reasonable grounds that a failure to race was
due to unintended damage or circumstances beyond the reasonable control of the
Competitor:
(a) for a failure to attend a World Series Regatta racing where the Competitors are racing
an AC45 Yacht, the Competitor shall be fined US$150,000;

(Posted Image for a failure to attend a regatta in which the competitors are racing an AC72 Yacht,
the Competitor shall be fined US$500,000;
for a second failure to attend a regatta the Competitor shall cease to be eligible for
the Event and for entitlements under Articles 5, 27 and 41; and
(d) for a failure to race when attending a regatta, the Competitor shall be fined
US$50,000 when racing an AC45 Yacht and be fined US$100,000 when racing an
AC72 Yacht.
For the avoidance of doubt, a Competitor may appeal the decision of the Regatta Director
to the Jury.

#166 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:42 AM

O good.. so there is further incentive for GCR to drop out, before June?

But subject to an appeal to the Jury?

#167 ro!

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:57 AM

O good.. so there is further incentive for GCR to drop out, before June?

But subject to an appeal to the Jury?


With their budget of 51M somethings.... paying a $150k penalty should not be a problem....

#168 ~Stingray~

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 02:05 AM

^ Yep, you would think - agreed.

#169 maxmini

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:12 AM

Havent GCR already had to pay a similar amount for the crash damage from earlier or have they not paid that as yet ?

#170 Tony-F18

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 05:58 AM

Two guys from GCR in the top 10 at the Princess Sophia Trophy:
Zach Railey	3	USA - 4		USSTAG	
Vasilij Zzbogar	8	SLO - 573	Esimit	
Jonathan Lobert	30	FRA - 112	Equipe de France militaire de voile


#171 Xlot

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:18 AM

Havent GCR already had to pay a similar amount for the crash damage from earlier or have they not paid that as yet ?


Wanna bet? :lol: Much higher, for that matter

#172 Albatros

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 06:59 AM

why would they lie?

spin perhaps ?
:rolleyes:

#173 pominfrance

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:37 PM


It is brilliant!


You are easily amused (which isn't a bad thing) but as an April Fool it is lame. A good April Fool leaves you wondering - can that be true? A perfect April Fool leaves the foolish in no doubt that it is true. This AF however Fools no-one.


Perfectly put. It is an example of how the AC organisation miss all elements of what is hip. This is a Facebook stunt when if they knew what they were doing they should be on Reddit.




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