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Seascape 27


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#101 jetfuel

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 02:59 PM

I would imagine it would rate in mid 80'sow 90's under PHRF

#102 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 08:10 AM

> Have you all had the chance to have the boat measured for any of the other performance rating systems more prevelant to Europe? IRC etc?
No. We had too much fun sailing fast, than to drilling through its knee caps and optimizing it for IRC :)
But so that you couldn't say we don't care for you, we're discussing with a fellow anarchist to ask his local PHRF rating office for a sneak preview...
For the die hard fans here are some lines from Monty Python's Proffessor of Logic:
For example, given the premise, "all fish live underwater" and "all mackerel are fish", my wife will conclude, not that "all mackerel live underwater", but that "if she buys kippers it will not rain", or that "trout live in trees", or even that "I do not love her any more." This she calls "using her intuition". I call it "crap", and it gets me very *irritated* because it is not logical.

(Last sentence has absolutely no connection between PHRF and my personal oppinion. Sure:)

#103 Pointy End

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:42 AM

I would imagine it would rate in mid 80'sow 90's under PHRF


Kinda like an Antrim 27...

#104 jetfuel

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 12:19 PM

I would imagine similar performance to an Atrim 27 but a much better interior :)

#105 Bonky

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:03 PM

Price is officially announced, 45,400€ excl. VAT w/o sails. Options list will hopefully available soon.

#106 Overserved

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:46 PM

> Have you all had the chance to have the boat measured for any of the other performance rating systems more prevelant to Europe? IRC etc? No. We had too much fun sailing fast, than to drilling through its knee caps and optimizing it for IRC :) But so that you couldn't say we don't care for you, we're discussing with a fellow anarchist to ask his local PHRF rating office for a sneak preview... For the die hard fans here are some lines from Monty Python's Proffessor of Logic: For example, given the premise, "all fish live underwater" and "all mackerel are fish", my wife will conclude, not that "all mackerel live underwater", but that "if she buys kippers it will not rain", or that "trout live in trees", or even that "I do not love her any more." This she calls "using her intuition". I call it "crap", and it gets me very *irritated* because it is not logical. (Last sentence has absolutely no connection between PHRF and my personal oppinion. Sure:)

Haha! Never said PHRF was the best system, just using what we are delt. Would prefer to see one design class of SSC 18s and/ or 27s.

#107 jetfuel

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 12:17 PM

Problem is that until there are enough boats in an area for OD you are going to have to race PHRF or IRC or not race lol


#108 LST

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:14 AM

@ Bonky

Where did you get that information ? Is there any news concerning options, sails etc. available ?

Thanks

#109 oonniilo

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 08:04 AM

Im looking for info on the mast height above water line. Some web pages have quoted 11m as "mast height". I think the mast appears to be keel stepped, right?

The problem for me are the few 11,0-11,5m bridges around here. Well, you can always lift the keel and heel the boat..

#110 ctutmark

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 06:23 AM

I have heard the air draft is 12.2m for the boat.

Im looking for info on the mast height above water line. Some web pages have quoted 11m as "mast height". I think the mast appears to be keel stepped, right?

The problem for me are the few 11,0-11,5m bridges around here. Well, you can always lift the keel and heel the boat..



#111 alsi

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 11:02 AM

Im looking for info on the mast height above water line. Some web pages have quoted 11m as "mast height". I think the mast appears to be keel stepped, righ


The mast stay on the cabin roof.

#112 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:03 PM

Hi guys,
the mast is deck stepped in order to be easily masted/dismasted. Mast alone is 10,90m, but air draft is around 12,20m. you can mast/dismast alone with use of jockey pole and spi halyard.

#113 Overserved

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 01:26 AM

Hi guys,
the mast is deck stepped in order to be easily masted/dismasted. Mast alone is 10,90m, but air draft is around 12,20m. you can mast/dismast alone with use of jockey pole and spi halyard.

is the jockey pole standard equipment with the boat?

#114 Philen

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:35 AM

@ Kristian

how long do you think until you'll be able to publish the pricing of all the options etc.?

#115 Damp Freddie

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:50 PM

I like the low-fast performance upwind you guys quote.

I think scandinavia at least is ready for a spoetsboat which sleeps its crew and can tackle the classic distance races up to 15ms winds.

Alvin expresses are getting to be an old fashioned boat after all!

#116 oioi

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:48 PM

I like the low-fast performance upwind you guys quote.

I think scandinavia at least is ready for a spoetsboat which sleeps its crew and can tackle the classic distance races up to 15ms winds.

Alvin expresses are getting to be an old fashioned boat after all!


Nowt wrong with an old express :)

Boat is very tempting, definatley think the niche this boat sits in is wide open.

#117 alsi

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 05:11 PM


I like the low-fast performance upwind you guys quote.

I think scandinavia at least is ready for a spoetsboat which sleeps its crew and can tackle the classic distance races up to 15ms winds.

Alvin expresses are getting to be an old fashioned boat after all!


Nowt wrong with an old express :)

Boat is very tempting, definatley think the niche this boat sits in is wide open.


Niche? I wait about 4 years for a boat with these properties ;)

#118 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:18 AM

hi guys, a bit too busy pimping up the interior for the European Yacht Of The Year trials, which start on 16th. One of the most important updates; we modified the engine hatch, in a way that is can open without interfering with the tiller, making a big improvement in handling.
Regarding the options; as the boats are going to be sailed in a very diverse environment, from lakes to semi offshore; the basic idea is to keep what everybody needs as standard, while specific equipment can be set as an option. We are working with dealers and customers who sailed on this first tests/promotions, what are their expectations.
Regarding the jockey pole, it is a simple ALU tube with end fittings, you use sheets to rig it, so it's a very simple and cheap feature.
Re: Prices - dealers have reccomended prices, which are then communicated with local specifics, including transport and/or some specific equipment. So for pricing and quotes, I suggest to contact with your local dealer.

#119 Bonky

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:11 PM

hi Kristian, that sounds terrific!!! But one concern, by looking to the rudder and to the tiller layout it looks like they only can be turned only to a small degree. Don‘t misunderstand I really like this layout due the freedom of space for the guy on the rudder but it looks like it could be a bit tricky while maneuvering through a small harbor especially with a double rudder layout. I know we all want to sail and there it doesn't really matter but after a couple of hours you have to come in for a break.

One other question regarding the rudder. On some of the earlier animation it looked like the rudders where just stacked in and easily removable in shallow water. Is that still so, will it be integrated in series production or not even needed?
Can’t wait to see your boat on a show.

#120 Bonky

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:00 PM

Regarding the European “yacht of the year “ contest. This shouldn’t be any problem for the Seascape to win. The opponents:
- Bavaria B/One, not really a new concept but a good price. Might even a candidate for a worldwide one design boat but only because of the price not the concept.
- Code 0, a very nice 30’ daysailer for 220k€ base price (280K€ fully equipped). There is now big deal to create a nice looking and working boat for that kind of money. But who can effort this?
- Vismara 50 Hybrid, why is that boat in that nominated in that class? This is a standard pleasure or sport cruiser yacht with a hybrid engine and LED lights. Where is the innovation on the sailing performance? Ahh, again minimum price 720k€!!! Everyone could enhance a new Bavaria Cruiser 50’ with that technology for half the money.
- Archambault A27, a nice crossover concept with no real new engineering ideas.
- Seascape 27, in my opinion a breakthrough concept. A light but very stiff boat for a reasonable price that can be sailed from relaxing family day sailing and touring to racing, usable from lake to offshore. Easy transportable from point to point with a middle size car. I don’t know one boat, excluding a Tri, which combines so many possibilities.
So there shouldn’t be any problem in winning that competition. At least from my point of view :rolleyes: !

#121 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:01 AM

One other question regarding the rudder. On some of the earlier animation it looked like the rudders where just stacked in and easily removable in shallow water. Is that still so, will it be integrated in series production or not even needed?


even when the keel is up, the bottom part is still 15cm lower than the tip of the rudder, so we dumped the idea of rudder boxes. Now the rudders are fixed and properly balanced which is much harder to do when using only a blade...

#122 oioi

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

Hi kristian, shame about the rudder boxes. My current boat lives on a mooring and i take the rudder of after racing to save having to anti foul it. Still no big issue, it wont be the deciding factor in whether to get one. And i guess if it saves cost, then alll those sort of decisions just make the boat that bit more affordable.

Is the intention to have a one design class for racing?

#123 alsi

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:15 PM

Hi Kristian,

have you thought about a crane system?
With an such lightweight mast offer it on, the mast will rig on ashore.
Whether on holiday with Papa or with crew in regattas. The cranes will be much easier.

#124 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:27 AM

hi alsi,

i don't completely understand what do you mean by "crane" but we do rig the boat on shore with a jockey pole. Two persons can get the mast up in about half an hour. Will post some pics/videos when the time permits.
BTW, Archambault witdrew from the EYOTY and was replaced by J70.
And finnaly, double rudders and central engine does not help the turning circle. Boat needs some speed to maneuvre, and will not turn on spot like single rudder boats do, so you need to get used to it and learn some tricks. But when it's blowing the tits off, the control you have when sailing is definitely worth it...

#125 alsi

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:39 AM

Hi Kristian,

I find no translation for Heißgeschirr / Heiß-Stropp, so a picture wat I mean.

We rig our mast (40 kg / 9 m) with 2 people by hand.
I expect with a 20 kg mast it will be really no problem to rig only by hand. One hand (papa) with jockey pole.
I would first try without jockey pole only with the gennaker-halyard.

Posted Image

#126 Overserved

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:28 PM

Kristian,
How is the boat lifted off of the trailer if you are not going to trailer launch? Is there a way to lift boat by straps and if so, where do the straps attach to the boat to be lifted by the hoist or crane?

#127 alsi

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:59 PM

Tank you Overserved, thats exactly what I mean! :rolleyes:

#128 Gospo

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 09:20 PM

@Kristian,

I have some questions of the price.

The boat was in the beginning presented with 40.000 EUR excl. VAT. Then it will be sold for 45.000 EUR excl. VAT, so I heard. But now in the Yacht-Test it is was spoken again from 48,000 EUR incl. VAT.

Biehlmarine writes on his homepage, the Yacht made a mistake in the test report. The boat will cost 48.000 EUR excl. VAT.

What is right now or where is the journey?
Have you a standard accessory list and when is the pricelist ready?


I've heard, for each country there will be only one importer who can determine its price freely. Then he has a territorial protection or can order any customer anywhere?

I think the Seascape27 is purchased not for beginners. An experienced sailor will not be satisfied with only 1-2 hours for test sailing with the merchant.

I want have such a boat for testing one or two days to get a good impression, before I spend ca. 80,000 EUR.
But I need no sales pitch because I'm sure better know what I want and need as a trader.

Slovenia is in the EU, since it does not require the importer does a complicated customs clearance and he only costs money. There is therefore the possibility of the boat relate directly to you from Slovenia?

For further warranty will surely find a solution.
If an owner of Chiemsee has a problem with his boat, I am sure he does not bring the boat to Flensburg.


The system of Saphire 27 I find not bad. Configure and order online, which saves the money for better and more sails.

#129 jetfuel

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 09:32 PM

I would think an exerienced sailor would know within an hour if he liked the boat
Usually you know in less. It would be nice to test it in light then heavy air but if you are lucky you can do that the same day lol

#130 Gospo

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 09:43 AM

I would think an exerienced sailor would know within an hour if he liked the boat
Usually you know in less. It would be nice to test it in light then heavy air but if you are lucky you can do that the same day lol


You forget, you will get to test full of euphoria. There's one slightly woozy the first 1-2 hours. ;)
Two days, I think of light and strong wind to.

Surely, someone will order only of the videos, without tests.

#131 jetfuel

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 12:11 PM

You are right about the euphoria
Lol

#132 Gospo

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:44 AM

http://www.biehlmari...-bestellen.html

What makes me a little irritated, Biehl writes "who wants on the waiting list for 2013, in order to pay for the time being only 5,000 EUR". Later he writes, "who wants to back out of the contract, it is now in huge demand not be a problem" and despite the "huge demand" we require at least 1/3 advance.
Later orders must, despite huge demand 1/3 of the purchase price immediately bring just so they get on the waiting list.
The funds will be secured by a guarantee issued, but that is why it does but only the banks money. A guarantee issued from the bank cost about 800-1.000 EUR. Because of the waiting list Biehl has such a interest-free loan of about 25.000 EUR for an indefinite period.

Would not it be better to work with a payment plan and Transfer of ownership?
So I bought my last new boat and this was built exclusively to order.

It surprises me just a little, as the Seascape is built as a one-design class and not as a "one off"
I want to buy the Seascape, but my initial euphoria has been greatly reduced. I have decided to wait a bit.

#133 Bonky

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:37 PM

Hi Gospo,
I think you misunderstood a little about the terms from the Bielmarin webpage. The 5000 EUR pre-payment is only to reserve a production slot for 2013. The rest of the 30% pre-payment is due when the production of your boat starts

The 30% pre-payment is common practice for boat builders at least out of my experience and I'm sure Biehl does not hold the complete pre- payment they have to make also a payment to Seascape. Of course the pre- payment can be secured by their bank but you don't have to. It's your risk than. Did you call Biehl and made a suggestion? I bet if the plan is Ok for both sides they will also go for it. By the way, what do you mean with: "Would not it be better to work with a payment plan and Transfer of ownership?"?

The problem is, we are following the boat construction, building and testing now for a while and we are dying and urging for more and more information. Seascape and Biehl are giving the information even if they are not yet 100% approved. And now, some people are surprised why this information is not 100% fail-safe. Biehl made very clear that the information is not completely finalized.

If it is your opinion that Biehl or Seascape just want money and do not want to provide a good product or you have a bad feeling, don’t buy than, at least not now. But then, you will get one in 2014 and not next year. The choice is yours.

#134 alsi

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:19 PM

@Bonky, ich hab das „für die Ersten und nur“ und der Warteliste auch anders verstanden.

Sure is some of what Biehlmarin writes formulated unhappy.

The price of the yacht seems to be true, it is only the original value. 40.000 EUR + 19% VAT = 47.600. It's obvious the old price.
I was about the high deposit, just come to be on the waiting list, even irritated.
I would find 5% of the base rate sufficient to discourage pranksters.

We also work with a deposit when ordering and payment at negotiated milestones. Our client then acquired ownership of the built component. This is simple and cheap.

But I would wait and see. Seascape was busy preparing for the tests “yacht of the year”. They are only now finding time to take care of the pricing and distribution.

I will wait at least until facts are published.

#135 scrambled_words

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:08 AM

I disagree.. If Archambault A27 is nothing new then surely Seascape27 is nothing new as well. Except for cabin SSC27 specifications is not that much dissimilar to specs. of Beny First Class 7.5
And how so Seascape27 it shouldn’t be your first boat when is technically similar to First Class7.5 which was built for purpose of learning to sail school boat…teach me where I’m wrong and what else I have to learn :rolleyes:

#136 alsi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:04 AM

Only the media talk of “New”
.
Seascape says: take the best of Pogo 6.50, Surpice and Mumm 30 and constructed free of a boxrule, then inevitably comes out a SSC27.

#137 Bonky

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:27 AM

No differences in specifications? I don't think so! The major differences:

A27 --> SSC27
Width: 2,98m --> not trailerable through Europe
Weight: 2150kg --> 1t more than the SSC27
Aluminum mast& boom --> Carbon mast & carbon boom (20kg)
Std. Jib Fairing System --> 3D Jib Fairing controllable from the cockpit
Expensive and heavy diesel engine --> Standard outborder engine light, price efficient and removable
Nice interior <-- not finished yet but possibly not as nice and comfortable

What I meant with is to include the technology and experiences from boat-racing-classes to this concept. A boat that can be sailed and paid by normal families and hobby sailing enthusiasts. Which leads us to the price:

57.500 EUR --> 45.400 EUR

Don’t misunderstand, I really like the look and space of the A27 but the SSC27 is just a bit more radical and of course my favorite boat :rolleyes:.


Bonky

#138 alsi

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:44 AM

You forgot one important point:
A27 has different keel versions / onely one keel version

A27 are lost so the smallest opportunities for education a class.

The mast weighs 28 Kg, but including shrouds and traps! :)

#139 Philen

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:01 PM

A27 are lost so the smallest opportunities for education a class.


no offence, alsi, but the above doesn't make any sense in english even if you try to retranslate it into german :blink: . Are you having a program translating this for you word for word?
Write it in German, and I'll be glad to translate it to english for the rest of the community.
:)

#140 alsi

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:39 PM

No, I have no translation program and google is even worse then I.
Yet I have asced Mr. bablefith for improvements. He said so: "So lost the A27 the smallest oppertunitie for the educatication from a class"

Thank's for the offer, now I can finally properly long compose essays ;)

#141 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:54 PM

Hello ladies, nice to see so busy posting after few weeks of absence. As you speak about the tests, well Yacht Revue did a nice job. They spent 3 days on the boat and had some luck with weather. First day was 5 kts, second 12-15 and third day it blew around 25 kts. So they probably saw what this boat can offer to the user.
The only mistake was about publishing the price; I wont go into the details but due to communication error they published "basic price, no sails & VAT " as "ready to sail" price. We discussed what to do with dealers. You're right, in EU you can shop around and nobody can stop you. However I hope that the dealers will be able to persuade you why it is better to buy the boat from the dealer near by than the dealer from 1500km away.
And of course, for people who are interested to buy the boat, it can be arranged to sail it for more than a day. It is not a trivial boat to set up, but is a very stable and simple boat to sail. Begginers? Yes, why not. With 600kg in the keel iIt is definitely more user friendly than the 18... And all boats are the same, pointy end forward and blunt end at the back (well, we do not talk about David Raison though:) Everything else are just differently packed ideas and details. A27 would be a stiff competitor for the boat fo the year, but unfortunately the company went bust so they withdrew from the competition. Times are definitely not firendly to the nautical industry.
Apart from that the Boat of the year trial was interesting although there was liht wind. Every journalist had 2 hrs to sail the boat and get impressions. Winners were decided by a popular vote on last day, but the results are strictly kept secret until the Dusseldorf boat show. We will see, we were competing against J70 and B/One.
After the trials, we packed the boat on the trailer (can do that in 2 hrs now but still improving) and took it to lake Luzern. This weekend we have test sails with swiss customers and then the boat comes home again to do some sail development and hard sailing to see how the wear and tear is progressing. So far, so good...

p.s. mast tube, spreaders and reinforcements are 17kg. With sheaves, cables and ropes it come to 26kg. Add around 10kg of wire stays and you know the actual weight.

#142 Philen

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:39 AM

No, I have no translation program and google is even worse then I.
Yet I have asced Mr. bablefith for improvements. He said so: "So lost the A27 the smallest oppertunitie for the educatication from a class"

Thank's for the offer, now I can finally properly long compose essays ;)


O.K bring on those essays ! ;) So I guess what you wanted to say was more along the lines, that Archambault missed the opportunity to build a one design class (?)
Well, with what Kristian just posted above, they must have had other problems to care about ... shame for the company to go belly up.

#143 alsi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:18 AM

It's shame with Archambault. I sail as on an A-35. They built really good boats.

@Philen, the trappers should I also send home and halyards used.
Translate itself is a good exercise against dementia :D

#144 Philen

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:04 PM

Translate itself is a good exercise against dementia :D

@alsi, absolutely right: keep them grey cells spinning... ;)

#145 LeoV

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:45 PM

What... Archambault in problems, damn damn. So long in the business... remember the Coco...

And Kristian, good luck, planning next yr a trip to Slovenia :)

#146 Philen

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:23 PM

We just got back from the lake of Lucerne, where we were able to see and sail the SSC 27 prototype today, in some quite miserable weather conditions:
rain at near freezing temperatures (by now it is actually snowing), shifty and gusty winds from the Northwest between 8 and 18 kts.
Already on the first beat with me only getting to know the boat we easily made 5.3 to 5.8 kts at an angle of about 40° with the 2nd reef in the main and the small jib. A little later with only minor tweeking by Kristian we did 6.3 + kts upwind. Downwind it was easy to get her to plane and 10 to 11 kts. were no problem at all going in a very safe mode (with the small genny up).
As I said , due to the conditions this was not about pushing the envelope but just getting to know the boat. She held every promise she has made, and everything that has been said before about this boat holds true. Cockpit layout is very practical and it is actually comfortable to sit on the sides of the deck, even for smaller persons. Cabin is quite basic but practical and there are some nice little design gems, such as the magnetic doors to seperate the forward cabin, the head and the main cabin.

No question this boat is a lot of fun (and safe) to sail casually with family as well as to race even in light winds. In the conditions we sailed her today she's a rocket but not finicky to handle. We're very happy with what we saw and felt today and hull No. 10 will be ours next summer. Can't wait for next season ! :)

#147 Christian

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:16 PM

We just got back from the lake of Lucerne, where we were able to see and sail the SSC 27 prototype today, in some quite miserable weather conditions:
rain at near freezing temperatures (by now it is actually snowing), shifty and gusty winds from the Northwest between 8 and 18 kts.
Already on the first beat with me only getting to know the boat we easily made 5.3 to 5.8 kts at an angle of about 40° with the 2nd reef in the main and the small jib. A little later with only minor tweeking by Kristian we did 6.3 + kts upwind. Downwind it was easy to get her to plane and 10 to 11 kts. were no problem at all going in a very safe mode (with the small genny up).
As I said , due to the conditions this was not about pushing the envelope but just getting to know the boat. She held every promise she has made, and everything that has been said before about this boat holds true. Cockpit layout is very practical and it is actually comfortable to sit on the sides of the deck, even for smaller persons. Cabin is quite basic but practical and there are some nice little design gems, such as the magnetic doors to seperate the forward cabin, the head and the main cabin.

No question this boat is a lot of fun (and safe) to sail casually with family as well as to race even in light winds. In the conditions we sailed her today she's a rocket but not finicky to handle. We're very happy with what we saw and felt today and hull No. 10 will be ours next summer. Can't wait for next season ! :)

2 reefs and small jib in max 18 knots?

#148 jetfuel

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

my thoughts too.

#149 oioi

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

No question this boat is a lot of fun (and safe) to sail casually with family as well as to race even in light winds. In the conditions we sailed her today she's a rocket but not finicky to handle. We're very happy with what we saw and felt today and hull No. 10 will be ours next summer. Can't wait for next season ! :)


Congratulations on your purchase, lucky man. 10 boats now sold? Not bad going. Im about a year away from being able to move up from my present boat, dead jealous :)


#150 LeoV

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:24 PM

shifty and gusty on a mountainlake, demo tour, seller looks into potential costumers eyes, and plays it safe :) Or new sails, or new piece of rigging, etc etc.

#151 alsi

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 08:27 PM

Congrats to your order from Hull No. 10. Have you ordered directly from Seascape or by Felix Bürgi?

Prior to my order, I have 2 from initially 3 projects to finish. That should be January or February of 2013 so far done.
In terms of demand, the delivery will not be safe in 2013 :(

On Facebook there is a Seascape 27 fan site. Can you publish there your report? http://www.facebook.com/#!/Seascap27

#152 Philen

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:59 AM

@Christian, jetfuel and LeoV:
re. sail configuration:

Your right this was not racing mode. Kristian and his buddy had been out there for about 5 hrs nonstop already and wind had been up to around 20 to 25 in gusts before. The idea was to bring my family (wife and two kids 11 an 13 yo) on board to see if they were comfortable sailing on it. This is the first sport boat that we as a family are going to sail and race on together. Further, the cold air has much more pressure than warm one (I was surprised myself about the difference between 20°C and 2° C). Nobody was really eager to ride outside the railing and get splashed with water that would soon freeze on your face :huh:.

So this was not Kristian being conservative but us (the costumers) wanting to stay within a certain comfort zone.

My point above was, that this boat already sails very impressively even if not pushed to the limit. Therefore the concept of the boat seems to be working very well indeed.

#153 oioi

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:15 PM

Hi philen, your use for the boat seems similar to mine. Do you plan to stay on board overnight? Is it practical enough to weekend on in camping out way?


#154 Christian

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:32 PM

@Christian, jetfuel and LeoV:
re. sail configuration:

Your right this was not racing mode. Kristian and his buddy had been out there for about 5 hrs nonstop already and wind had been up to around 20 to 25 in gusts before. The idea was to bring my family (wife and two kids 11 an 13 yo) on board to see if they were comfortable sailing on it. This is the first sport boat that we as a family are going to sail and race on together. Further, the cold air has much more pressure than warm one (I was surprised myself about the difference between 20°C and 2° C). Nobody was really eager to ride outside the railing and get splashed with water that would soon freeze on your face :huh:.

So this was not Kristian being conservative but us (the costumers) wanting to stay within a certain comfort zone.

My point above was, that this boat already sails very impressively even if not pushed to the limit. Therefore the concept of the boat seems to be working very well indeed.

Fair enough for a cold first encounter

#155 Philen

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:07 PM

Do you plan to stay on board overnight? Is it practical enough to weekend on in camping out way?

@ oioi
yes I plan to stay overnight, but mostly not more than 1 or 2 nights at a time. off course it is always a matter of personal needs in terms of comfort and organization. I would say there is easily enough space for 2-3 adults to spend 1-2 weeks on the boat. Same for a family of 4, but usually the kids won't like it for that long. For a weekend 4 adults are no problem. berth wise it sleeps 6 but then you are short on space for gear. so I guess it also depends on the weather and if you can use the cockpit.
one drawback with regard to camping is that there is no dedicated space for a stove, so a camping stove will have to do, unless the people at GIGO design come up with some kind of portable cooking-module-thingy...

#156 jetfuel

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:38 PM


@Christian, jetfuel and LeoV:
re. sail configuration:

Your right this was not racing mode. Kristian and his buddy had been out there for about 5 hrs nonstop already and wind had been up to around 20 to 25 in gusts before. The idea was to bring my family (wife and two kids 11 an 13 yo) on board to see if they were comfortable sailing on it. This is the first sport boat that we as a family are going to sail and race on together. Further, the cold air has much more pressure than warm one (I was surprised myself about the difference between 20°C and 2° C). Nobody was really eager to ride outside the railing and get splashed with water that would soon freeze on your face :huh:.

So this was not Kristian being conservative but us (the costumers) wanting to stay within a certain comfort zone.

My point above was, that this boat already sails very impressively even if not pushed to the limit. Therefore the concept of the boat seems to be working very well indeed.

Fair enough for a cold first encounter
Agree



#157 alsi

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:49 AM

I have not sailed the boat, but have more than 1 hour sitting in the cabin.

The sense of space is enormous. You do not realize that you're in a boat with 8m.
The comfort limit is the ceiling height of about 160 cm and the keel box. Before the keel box and in the space in front of the toilet is enough space to turn around. Closely it is there only upward.

Compared to the toilet, you can install a jetboil. I would only recommend this for overnight races to boil hot water for maintenance products. For the holiday mode I would also access to a stove out of the luggage box.
For sleeping I see for 4 adults sufficient place. With 6 adults will go for a night. Anyone who wishes to use the kennel to sleep needs the square in front of the toilet as a sail locker.
.
For me, I have the same claim (2 adults + 1 child). At the weekend with family and regattas, as well as once a week with family in Swiss or Italian lakes. Possibly even 10-14 days after Croatia. Then secure the border for comfort is reached.

My conclusion:
great for the long weekend,
until a week is somewhat limited but certainly no problem
at 14 days should all be tolerant and not particularly demanding
Tours for several weeks, for example on the Baltic, should all be convinced campers and purists.

#158 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:19 PM

hi all,
this saturday had winds gusting way over 25 kts, rain and snow, with temperatures around 2-3°C. So pretty miserable day on water and I was impressed that everybody showed up and noone cancelled the test sail. We wend out with full main and big jib, but the wind was picking up quite rapidly, so we ended up the first demo tour on staysail and 1st reef, doing 11.5kts downwind without the spi. So, definitely there was a lot of pressure, even if this was not obvious on the surface.
On all other tours, we sailed with 2nd reef and staysail, still doing a comfortable 6kts upwind but not scaring people away. We used fractional spi for fun, as the aim of this day was not to break any speed records, but to show to everybody that the boat had enough gears that it can be sailed under control even if novice is holding the helm. Yes, we could shake the reefs out on the last sail with a brave familly of four (most of the families would not go out of the house in conditions like this, my hat off to them!), but we did not for a reason. We had enough power for a nice sail, with gusts still coming and going but with small sail area this was not so obvious. Simply, the aim was not to have people hiking on the rail and playing with the mainsheet in hand all the time, but to show them they can enjoy the boat, and have even with small spi up. That was supposed to be fun sailing, not race.
Felix Bürgi is not the Swiss dealer anymore, since last year we're working with Gregor Zurfluh from Fallenbach Werft.

p.s. how can one attach pictures to this forum?

#159 GOLfa

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:25 PM

Click on "More Reply options", than you can "Attach Files" or post Images by clicking on the 11th icon in the second row from the left. :)

#160 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:34 PM

Thanks GOLfa.


Attached File  P1010744.JPG   95.75K   217 downloads
Doesn't look so slow, even with 2nd reef and chicken kite...

Attached File  P1010771.JPG   73.57K   247 downloads


Attached File  229921_4838225310821_59742692_n.jpg   38.4K   199 downloads
general feeling of winter after we packed the boat...

#161 Snajdarn

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:09 PM

Kristian, this looks great! How much is the total towing weight trailer + boat?

#162 Overserved

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:33 PM

Thanks GOLfa.


Attached File  P1010744.JPG   95.75K   217 downloads
Doesn't look so slow, even with 2nd reef and chicken kite...

Attached File  P1010771.JPG   73.57K   247 downloads


Attached File  229921_4838225310821_59742692_n.jpg   38.4K   199 downloads
general feeling of winter after we packed the boat...

Looks like a fun and very cold day on the water. Glad you all had a good turn out. I have not seen anything that speaks to Rig Dimensions or sailplan measurements. Is this something that you can supply.

#163 GybeSetŪ

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:52 PM

looks like the snowplough (img #1) could come in handy in the mountains

#164 Philen

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 06:52 PM

That was supposed to be fun sailing, not race.


and it was, great fun, Kristian! Would have been great to play a while longer, but the conditions really weren't so inviting. My hat goes off to you guys, who had been out there for about 5 hours!!! Suprised you were able to move still afterwards.

Anyway, while I knew before, that this is the boat I have been waiting for for quite some time now, Saturday was all about convincing the rest of the family that they wanted this boat as bad as I do. It speaks for itself that my wife (who's from California and not a great fan of cold an wet weather) as well as our two boys had a great time Saturday. They didn't need any additional convincing that this should be our new toy.

So now we have some grueling months waiting for delivery... :( Hope they can stick to their building schedule.

#165 jetfuel

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:16 AM

Philen
Do you live in Europe or is the boat coming to the US?

#166 Great Red Shark

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 02:18 AM

Thanks for the updates. It's very interesting to see this design come to life one step at a time - I like the dual-purpose mix of the boat and hope you are successful in building many more.

As for the reduced sail area - even here in warm Hawaii we'll surprise guests with a reef and high-clewed # 4 sometimes in 20 knots - less wind than many expect us to shorten sail in, but if you don't have The Boys on the rail for Full Race Mode sailing and the boat is easily driven, why load everything up ? If you can achieve hull speed with a short sail plan, then I usually do so unless there is a bottle of Rum on the line.

#167 Philen

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:46 AM

Philen
Do you live in Europe or is the boat coming to the US?


@jetfuel

I live in Switzerland. As far as I know, there are 15 hulls scheduled for delivery in 2013, all of which have been sold. 5 of those are coming to Switzerland. This has to do with the fact, that many of our lakes only have very light thermal winds in summer, so we are longing for a sporboat with a good sailplan and a decently sized cabin (the Esse 850 e.g. lacks the latter). On some of our lakes here it is an advantage to being able to reduce draft to get to your berth, for example.

I have absolutely no info regarding the US, but the SSC27 should be distributed through the same channels as the Seascape 18. You could probably PM Kristian Seascape (post #163) about this.

#168 Koen

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:18 PM

In my search for more info and pic's I came acros the folowing:

http://frederic-auge...0000n9TpYO2lz9g

Enjoy!

#169 scrambled_words

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:02 AM

Hi Christian, before I start deciding whether should or shouldn't ask you for a test sail and purchase please can you provide me with an advice how the SSC27 would take care of me in the next conditions. For example one of the major turn off and away from shores and most importantly sailing in the middle of cold water is the look at the photos you uploaded lately. It brings frustrating and desperate thinking of a situation where you fall off the boat into freezing water. Long periods of time without a dry suit are almost an unthinkable inferno. The reality is my girlfriend is even worse and she couldn’t cope with swimming in the water until it is 80 degrees F.
Fortunately global warming brings us more heat but also extreme weather events like the current hurricane Sandy are already occurring frequently too. Hurricanes are not a good time to sail in and we should be looking at weather forecast before. What happens when me and my girlfriend decide to move away from cold of European winter for short holiday in Canary Islands on a boat like SSC27? Is this a trip we should be doing? Would it be a catastrophe when before reaching La Palma island storm will strike with 45+SE winds, big waves and blinding calima? Sorry of being a bit nervous it is clearly a situation I don’t appreciate to be in a lot.

Esse 850 has a self tacking jib. Is self tacking jib an option on SSC27?

#170 Philen

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:19 AM

Esse 850 has a self tacking jib. Is self tacking jib an option on SSC27?


@scrambled_words

The Esse 850 has no self-tacking jib (it is a ~100% jib, but not self-tacking), the Esse 990 and the Esse 750 do, however.

as for you other question, the EU CE rating for the SSC 27 is supposed to be a B (off-shore, up to Bft 8, wave height up to 4 meters) as opposed to A (high seas, > 8 Bft and > 4m)

#171 biogrove

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:25 PM

Good batch of new pictures on Seascape's FB page.

https://www.facebook.com/Seascap27

Direct link to pics

http://frederic-auge...0000n9TpYO2lz9g

#172 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

... how the SSC27 would take care of me in the next conditions.


last question first - getting caught in 45+kst, big sea and general clusterfuck is not something you will be looking for in any boat. This is more a question of seamanship thatn general boat design especially as we're talking about design category "B". However we hope that the low CoG and insubmersible volumes in the hull, will keep yu reasonable safe if you get yourself into a situation that is best to avoid. Maybe you can also try to consider how a Bavaria 33 would handle this situation, since they have a design category "A".

About pictures, cold and falling overboard: first of all in the view of old wisdom "better to prevent that to cure" it is generally considered a good idea trying to stay on board. We believe that 600mm stancions help in this department and are worth all the hassle (regarding the fixation to the boat, problems coming from ergonomics, etc). Drysuit and personal floatation devices also help if you failed the first step. The last but not at least, Switzerland in winter is much better for skiing, than for sailing :)

For general info, different places have different perception of what "low" temperature is...

+18°C hotels in Hawai will give secoond blanket to guests
+10°C in Helsinki, they switch off central heating
+2°C Italian cars don't start
0°C destilled water freeze.
-1°C you can see you breath in the air. In Russia, they eat ice cream and drink beer
-4°C your dog wants to sneak in your bed
-10°C French cars don't start
-12°C politicians start to talk about homeless problem.
-15°C american cars don't start
-20°C you can hear your breath
-24°C japanese cars don't start
-28°C your dog wants to sneak inside your pajama
-29°C german cars don't start
-30°C any normal can don't start
-36°C even russian cars coughs a few times before it starts in the morning
-39°C Russians are slowly starting to button up their coats
-50°C even the car wants to sneak into your bed
-60°C residents of Helsini are freezing. In Moscow they wear coats
-70°C even the hell is freezing up. University of Novosibirsk is organizin a cross coutry running match
-72°C even the lawyers are putting their hands in their own pockets for a change...
-120°C alcohol starts to freeze. Russians are seriously worried.
-273,15°C Absolute zero. Movement of elementary particles stopped. Russians are licking frozen vodka.

#173 jetfuel

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:46 PM

us canadians are kind of like Russioans I guess lol except beer freezes faster than Vodka

#174 Philen

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 12:59 PM

-273,15°C Absolute zero. Movement of elementary particles stopped. Russians are licking frozen vodka.


-274°C Slovenians organize testsail events in the snow, ... lol !!!

#175 Overserved

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:17 PM


... how the SSC27 would take care of me in the next conditions.


last question first - getting caught in 45+kst, big sea and general clusterfuck is not something you will be looking for in any boat. This is more a question of seamanship thatn general boat design especially as we're talking about design category "B". However we hope that the low CoG and insubmersible volumes in the hull, will keep yu reasonable safe if you get yourself into a situation that is best to avoid. Maybe you can also try to consider how a Bavaria 33 would handle this situation, since they have a design category "A".

About pictures, cold and falling overboard: first of all in the view of old wisdom "better to prevent that to cure" it is generally considered a good idea trying to stay on board. We believe that 600mm stancions help in this department and are worth all the hassle (regarding the fixation to the boat, problems coming from ergonomics, etc). Drysuit and personal floatation devices also help if you failed the first step. The last but not at least, Switzerland in winter is much better for skiing, than for sailing :)

For general info, different places have different perception of what "low" temperature is...

+18°C hotels in Hawai will give secoond blanket to guests
+10°C in Helsinki, they switch off central heating
+2°C Italian cars don't start
0°C destilled water freeze.
-1°C you can see you breath in the air. In Russia, they eat ice cream and drink beer
-4°C your dog wants to sneak in your bed
-10°C French cars don't start
-12°C politicians start to talk about homeless problem.
-15°C american cars don't start
-20°C you can hear your breath
-24°C japanese cars don't start
-28°C your dog wants to sneak inside your pajama
-29°C german cars don't start
-30°C any normal can don't start
-36°C even russian cars coughs a few times before it starts in the morning
-39°C Russians are slowly starting to button up their coats
-50°C even the car wants to sneak into your bed
-60°C residents of Helsini are freezing. In Moscow they wear coats
-70°C even the hell is freezing up. University of Novosibirsk is organizin a cross coutry running match
-72°C even the lawyers are putting their hands in their own pockets for a change...
-120°C alcohol starts to freeze. Russians are seriously worried.
-273,15°C Absolute zero. Movement of elementary particles stopped. Russians are licking frozen vodka.

Now....that was funny Kristian

#176 jim lee

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:53 PM



... how the SSC27 would take care of me in the next conditions.


last question first - getting caught in 45+kst, big sea and general clusterfuck is not something you will be looking for in any boat. This is more a question of seamanship thatn general boat design especially as we're talking about design category "B". However we hope that the low CoG and insubmersible volumes in the hull, will keep yu reasonable safe if you get yourself into a situation that is best to avoid. Maybe you can also try to consider how a Bavaria 33 would handle this situation, since they have a design category "A".

About pictures, cold and falling overboard: first of all in the view of old wisdom "better to prevent that to cure" it is generally considered a good idea trying to stay on board. We believe that 600mm stancions help in this department and are worth all the hassle (regarding the fixation to the boat, problems coming from ergonomics, etc). Drysuit and personal floatation devices also help if you failed the first step. The last but not at least, Switzerland in winter is much better for skiing, than for sailing :)

For general info, different places have different perception of what "low" temperature is...

+18°C hotels in Hawai will give secoond blanket to guests
+10°C in Helsinki, they switch off central heating
+2°C Italian cars don't start
0°C destilled water freeze.
-1°C you can see you breath in the air. In Russia, they eat ice cream and drink beer
-4°C your dog wants to sneak in your bed
-10°C French cars don't start
-12°C politicians start to talk about homeless problem.
-15°C american cars don't start
-20°C you can hear your breath
-24°C japanese cars don't start
-28°C your dog wants to sneak inside your pajama
-29°C german cars don't start
-30°C any normal can don't start
-36°C even russian cars coughs a few times before it starts in the morning
-39°C Russians are slowly starting to button up their coats
-50°C even the car wants to sneak into your bed
-60°C residents of Helsini are freezing. In Moscow they wear coats
-70°C even the hell is freezing up. University of Novosibirsk is organizin a cross coutry running match
-72°C even the lawyers are putting their hands in their own pockets for a change...
-120°C alcohol starts to freeze. Russians are seriously worried.
-273,15°C Absolute zero. Movement of elementary particles stopped. Russians are licking frozen vodka.

Now....that was funny Kristian


+1

-jim lee

#177 scrambled_words

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:44 AM

You won’t like me for this, but you are all generalizing. Actually a friend swam with four Russians in cold water and they stayed in for less than 10 minutes while he had tough time leaving water after more than one hour. Personaly cold doesnt bother me much.

As far as boats are concerned I never saw an Esse neither a Seascape but on their webpage (http://www.esseboats.ch/en/esse850) they state: BOAT STANDARD EQUIPMENT
Boat complete, with rod rigging, sheets and halyards, lifting strap, Bartels’ under deck mounted jib roller reefing, Harken’ deck fittings, outboard motor bracket. Self-tackling jib.
If this is an error is quite a mistake for reputation of costly boat like Esse. Generally speaking you have to be honest when marketing something on web.

SSC27 would very likely manage better than bigger Bavaria33 out there and that’s a good sign. ;)

#178 Philen

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 01:43 PM

As far as boats are concerned I never saw an Esse neither a Seascape but on their webpage (http://www.esseboats.ch/en/esse850) they state: BOAT STANDARD EQUIPMENT
Boat complete, with rod rigging, sheets and halyards, lifting strap, Bartels’ under deck mounted jib roller reefing, Harken’ deck fittings, outboard motor bracket. Self-tackling jib.
If this is an error is quite a mistake for reputation of costly boat like Esse. Generally speaking you have to be honest when marketing something on web.


@scrambled_words

I regularly crew on a Esse 850 and, believe me, the self-tacking jib is not even an option an that boat. But you're right, the webpage states differently. However, I don't think they are trying to mislead anybody here (what would be the point?). It's a genuine mistake, probably because their newer models (990 and 750) do have self-tacking jibs. Professional? Not quite. Dishonest? Neither really.

#179 LST

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 02:29 PM

Now this is interesting (comparison Esse /Seascape)

I've been looking for boats about this size for some time, and of course the Esse 850 was also on that list. Philen, could you elaborate on the differences of the two boats ? Performance, behavior, tacking angle etc.

Thanks for sharing

#180 Philen

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 09:38 AM

Now this is interesting (comparison Esse /Seascape)

I've been looking for boats about this size for some time, and of course the Esse 850 was also on that list. Philen, could you elaborate on the differences of the two boats ? Performance, behavior, tacking angle etc.

Thanks for sharing


@LST

You'll certainly find people around Zürich who can give you better input on the Esse850 than me. I also have to add, that I usually sail the Esse 850 as a jib trimmer in the light fickle winds typical for summer around here, while the only time I have sailed the SSC 27 was in cold, gusting winds up to 20 kts. So my experience is a completely different one for two boats. But I can give you my 5 cents worth of oppinion, since of course to me the comparison begs to be made.
The Esse 850 was designed for the conditions on lake Zurich, but as you probably know, performes also very well in more wind (such as lake Garda). Compared to the SSC 27 she is 2 feet longer and one foot narrower. Sailarea to displacement is comparable, equally draft and keel/bulbweight. Tacking angle of the Esse in light air up to 7 kts is about 86 to 90 deg. In astronger breeze you can get close to around 75 deg. The SSC 27 I was told has a tacking angle of around 86 deg in light air. When I sailed her in strong winds we were not setup to really measure it but she certainly beats well to the wind. Judging from hullshape I would say the Esse has a slight advantage going upwind (but the SSC 27 has more possibilities to trim the jib sheet, and a slightly bigger tacking angle may be compensated by more speed resulting in similar VMG). Downwind I think the SSC 27 may outperform the Esse, bui this remains to be seen.
Both boats are very stiff and very stable. Build quality is excellent for the Esse and will hopefully be so for the SSC too.
Main difference is that the SSC offers considerably more space down below. You can take her on a 1 to 2 week coastal cruise, while this would be more of a camping trip with the Esse. The latter also offers little to no protection from waves. The Esse is sailed occasionally on the ocean for coastal regattas. But essentially she is a boat designed for racing on lakes. The SSC is more of a crossover concept between sportboat and performance cruiser. Reducing draft is easier in the SSC (swing keel) than with the lift keel of the Esse (for transport).

So why did I decide for the SSC? Well, at the time of her launch the Esse was out of my price range. I think, the Esse still runs at least 10-15% more expensive than the SSC will, but the end price of the SSC is not determined yet, and I don't know how much the Esse goes for these days. Further, my wife always maintained she wanted a real cabin were one can sit comfortably as well as sleep and eat occasionally. Of course the head is also a most welcome feature in the SSC.
Performancewise they will probably be quite close here on the lake, and also will be rated similarly. But this remains to be seen. Hope this helps.

#181 LST

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 04:35 PM

@ Philen

Thank you for your 5 cts ; ) So it seems SSC could be tough challenger for the Esse. I agree with you that the versatility of the SSC unequaled. Thats why i went for the SSC as well.
I will be very interested to see both boats compete on the water, and how the slightly shorter SSC takes the waves upwind. IMO this could be the biggest disadvantage. Are you on Lake Zürich ? I will have my SSC on the shores of Lake Neuchatel ; ) ... can't wait.

#182 scrambled_words

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:31 AM

You can have your new Seascape for just 7.000$.

Seascape cruising speed is about 4.5kt which is just right for when you want to do some fishing with it.

Look at Youtube anime.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Lads at 2:07 are awesomely more s e x y than chicks at 2:04 min.you know.

#183 Philen

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:32 PM

@ Philen

Thank you for your 5 cts ; ) So it seems SSC could be tough challenger for the Esse. I agree with you that the versatility of the SSC unequaled. Thats why i went for the SSC as well.
I will be very interested to see both boats compete on the water, and how the slightly shorter SSC takes the waves upwind. IMO this could be the biggest disadvantage. Are you on Lake Zürich ? I will have my SSC on the shores of Lake Neuchatel ; ) ... can't wait.


@LST

yes, I'm on lake Zurich. Appearantly one other SSC 27 will be coming this way next summer. So it will be fun to compare against each other and against the Esse 850's. Not so worried about the waves here (i'm sure that is different on lake Neuchatel). Really looking forward to the delivery, too.

#184 girl-gone-wild

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 07:49 PM

You can have your new Seascape for just 7.000$.

Seascape cruising speed is about 4.5kt which is just right for when you want to do some fishing with it.

Look at Youtube anime.



Lads at 2:07 are awesomely more s e x y than chicks at 2:04 min.you know.


Wow Ladies... upsss, sorry... Wow Guys I am really so excited for you guys to get such a good vesel :P

#185 LST

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:39 AM

and it has DPS !! just love it

#186 girl-gone-wild

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:39 AM


Now this is interesting (comparison Esse /Seascape)

I've been looking for boats about this size for some time, and of course the Esse 850 was also on that list. Philen, could you elaborate on the differences of the two boats ? Performance, behavior, tacking angle etc.

Thanks for sharing


@LST

You'll certainly find people around Zürich who can give you better input on the Esse850 than me. I also have to add, that I usually sail the Esse 850 as a jib trimmer in the light fickle winds typical for summer around here, while the only time I have sailed the SSC 27 was in cold, gusting winds up to 20 kts. So my experience is a completely different one for two boats. But I can give you my 5 cents worth of oppinion, since of course to me the comparison begs to be made.
The Esse 850 was designed for the conditions on lake Zurich, but as you probably know, performes also very well in more wind (such as lake Garda). Compared to the SSC 27 she is 2 feet longer and one foot narrower. Sailarea to displacement is comparable, equally draft and keel/bulbweight. Tacking angle of the Esse in light air up to 7 kts is about 86 to 90 deg. In astronger breeze you can get close to around 75 deg. The SSC 27 I was told has a tacking angle of around 86 deg in light air. When I sailed her in strong winds we were not setup to really measure it but she certainly beats well to the wind. Judging from hullshape I would say the Esse has a slight advantage going upwind (but the SSC 27 has more possibilities to trim the jib sheet, and a slightly bigger tacking angle may be compensated by more speed resulting in similar VMG). Downwind I think the SSC 27 may outperform the Esse, bui this remains to be seen.
Both boats are very stiff and very stable. Build quality is excellent for the Esse and will hopefully be so for the SSC too.
Main difference is that the SSC offers considerably more space down below. You can take her on a 1 to 2 week coastal cruise, while this would be more of a camping trip with the Esse. The latter also offers little to no protection from waves. The Esse is sailed occasionally on the ocean for coastal regattas. But essentially she is a boat designed for racing on lakes. The SSC is more of a crossover concept between sportboat and performance cruiser. Reducing draft is easier in the SSC (swing keel) than with the lift keel of the Esse (for transport).

So why did I decide for the SSC? Well, at the time of her launch the Esse was out of my price range. I think, the Esse still runs at least 10-15% more expensive than the SSC will, but the end price of the SSC is not determined yet, and I don't know how much the Esse goes for these days. Further, my wife always maintained she wanted a real cabin were one can sit comfortably as well as sleep and eat occasionally. Of course the head is also a most welcome feature in the SSC.
Performancewise they will probably be quite close here on the lake, and also will be rated similarly. But this remains to be seen. Hope this helps.


While Seascape is selling her boat in Switzerland at dumping, predatory prices, her home country and the world is entering some very scary times. Economic markets are collapsing, people have nothing to eat in Greece. People all over the world are suffering and people are afraid and what happens when people are afraid. What happens when people are afraid? They become intolerant. They start pointing the finger at other people. They say you’re the reason, you’re the problem, you’re to blame. They say get out! Ok, and this of course you know is not the answer to the problem. The enemy is not out there, there is no such thing as an external enemy. The enemy is within. Now, I know that I have made a certain Christian very angry with me and it is not my intention to make enemies. No, it is not my intention to make enemies. It is my intention to promote tolerance. Ok? This is my intention and when we start saying we have to get rid of this person and we have to get rid of that group of people, because then we will have a better place it starts to sound like something else. It starts to sound like something scary, right. And you know if we don’t learn from history we’ll just repeat it. So the next time you wanna point the finger at somebody and blame them for your problem in your life take that finger and point it back at you and fix it. If you see a problem don’t complain, ok. Fix it.

#187 jetfuel

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:49 AM



Now this is interesting (comparison Esse /Seascape)

I've been looking for boats about this size for some time, and of course the Esse 850 was also on that list. Philen, could you elaborate on the differences of the two boats ? Performance, behavior, tacking angle etc.

Thanks for sharing


@LST

You'll certainly find people around Zürich who can give you better input on the Esse850 than me. I also have to add, that I usually sail the Esse 850 as a jib trimmer in the light fickle winds typical for summer around here, while the only time I have sailed the SSC 27 was in cold, gusting winds up to 20 kts. So my experience is a completely different one for two boats. But I can give you my 5 cents worth of oppinion, since of course to me the comparison begs to be made.
The Esse 850 was designed for the conditions on lake Zurich, but as you probably know, performes also very well in more wind (such as lake Garda). Compared to the SSC 27 she is 2 feet longer and one foot narrower. Sailarea to displacement is comparable, equally draft and keel/bulbweight. Tacking angle of the Esse in light air up to 7 kts is about 86 to 90 deg. In astronger breeze you can get close to around 75 deg. The SSC 27 I was told has a tacking angle of around 86 deg in light air. When I sailed her in strong winds we were not setup to really measure it but she certainly beats well to the wind. Judging from hullshape I would say the Esse has a slight advantage going upwind (but the SSC 27 has more possibilities to trim the jib sheet, and a slightly bigger tacking angle may be compensated by more speed resulting in similar VMG). Downwind I think the SSC 27 may outperform the Esse, bui this remains to be seen.
Both boats are very stiff and very stable. Build quality is excellent for the Esse and will hopefully be so for the SSC too.
Main difference is that the SSC offers considerably more space down below. You can take her on a 1 to 2 week coastal cruise, while this would be more of a camping trip with the Esse. The latter also offers little to no protection from waves. The Esse is sailed occasionally on the ocean for coastal regattas. But essentially she is a boat designed for racing on lakes. The SSC is more of a crossover concept between sportboat and performance cruiser. Reducing draft is easier in the SSC (swing keel) than with the lift keel of the Esse (for transport).

So why did I decide for the SSC? Well, at the time of her launch the Esse was out of my price range. I think, the Esse still runs at least 10-15% more expensive than the SSC will, but the end price of the SSC is not determined yet, and I don't know how much the Esse goes for these days. Further, my wife always maintained she wanted a real cabin were one can sit comfortably as well as sleep and eat occasionally. Of course the head is also a most welcome feature in the SSC.
Performancewise they will probably be quite close here on the lake, and also will be rated similarly. But this remains to be seen. Hope this helps.


While Seascape is selling her boat in Switzerland at dumping, predatory prices, her home country and the world is entering some very scary times. Economic markets are collapsing, people have nothing to eat in Greece. People all over the world are suffering and people are afraid and what happens when people are afraid. What happens when people are afraid? They become intolerant. They start pointing the finger at other people. They say you’re the reason, you’re the problem, you’re to blame. They say get out! Ok, and this of course you know is not the answer to the problem. The enemy is not out there, there is no such thing as an external enemy. The enemy is within. Now, I know that I have made a certain Christian very angry with me and it is not my intention to make enemies. No, it is not my intention to make enemies. It is my intention to promote tolerance. Ok? This is my intention and when we start saying we have to get rid of this person and we have to get rid of that group of people, because then we will have a better place it starts to sound like something else. It starts to sound like something scary, right. And you know if we don’t learn from history we’ll just repeat it. So the next time you wanna point the finger at somebody and blame them for your problem in your life take that finger and point it back at you and fix it. If you see a problem don’t complain, ok. Fix it.

You're fucked
Show us your tits

#188 Christian

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:17 AM



Now this is interesting (comparison Esse /Seascape)

I've been looking for boats about this size for some time, and of course the Esse 850 was also on that list. Philen, could you elaborate on the differences of the two boats ? Performance, behavior, tacking angle etc.

Thanks for sharing


@LST

You'll certainly find people around Zürich who can give you better input on the Esse850 than me. I also have to add, that I usually sail the Esse 850 as a jib trimmer in the light fickle winds typical for summer around here, while the only time I have sailed the SSC 27 was in cold, gusting winds up to 20 kts. So my experience is a completely different one for two boats. But I can give you my 5 cents worth of oppinion, since of course to me the comparison begs to be made.
The Esse 850 was designed for the conditions on lake Zurich, but as you probably know, performes also very well in more wind (such as lake Garda). Compared to the SSC 27 she is 2 feet longer and one foot narrower. Sailarea to displacement is comparable, equally draft and keel/bulbweight. Tacking angle of the Esse in light air up to 7 kts is about 86 to 90 deg. In astronger breeze you can get close to around 75 deg. The SSC 27 I was told has a tacking angle of around 86 deg in light air. When I sailed her in strong winds we were not setup to really measure it but she certainly beats well to the wind. Judging from hullshape I would say the Esse has a slight advantage going upwind (but the SSC 27 has more possibilities to trim the jib sheet, and a slightly bigger tacking angle may be compensated by more speed resulting in similar VMG). Downwind I think the SSC 27 may outperform the Esse, bui this remains to be seen.
Both boats are very stiff and very stable. Build quality is excellent for the Esse and will hopefully be so for the SSC too.
Main difference is that the SSC offers considerably more space down below. You can take her on a 1 to 2 week coastal cruise, while this would be more of a camping trip with the Esse. The latter also offers little to no protection from waves. The Esse is sailed occasionally on the ocean for coastal regattas. But essentially she is a boat designed for racing on lakes. The SSC is more of a crossover concept between sportboat and performance cruiser. Reducing draft is easier in the SSC (swing keel) than with the lift keel of the Esse (for transport).

So why did I decide for the SSC? Well, at the time of her launch the Esse was out of my price range. I think, the Esse still runs at least 10-15% more expensive than the SSC will, but the end price of the SSC is not determined yet, and I don't know how much the Esse goes for these days. Further, my wife always maintained she wanted a real cabin were one can sit comfortably as well as sleep and eat occasionally. Of course the head is also a most welcome feature in the SSC.
Performancewise they will probably be quite close here on the lake, and also will be rated similarly. But this remains to be seen. Hope this helps.


While Seascape is selling her boat in Switzerland at dumping, predatory prices, her home country and the world is entering some very scary times. Economic markets are collapsing, people have nothing to eat in Greece. People all over the world are suffering and people are afraid and what happens when people are afraid. What happens when people are afraid? They become intolerant. They start pointing the finger at other people. They say you’re the reason, you’re the problem, you’re to blame. They say get out! Ok, and this of course you know is not the answer to the problem. The enemy is not out there, there is no such thing as an external enemy. The enemy is within. Now, I know that I have made a certain Christian very angry with me and it is not my intention to make enemies. No, it is not my intention to make enemies. It is my intention to promote tolerance. Ok? This is my intention and when we start saying we have to get rid of this person and we have to get rid of that group of people, because then we will have a better place it starts to sound like something else. It starts to sound like something scary, right. And you know if we don’t learn from history we’ll just repeat it. So the next time you wanna point the finger at somebody and blame them for your problem in your life take that finger and point it back at you and fix it. If you see a problem don’t complain, ok. Fix it.


Are you fucking high?

#189 oioi

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:11 AM

Bizarre troll

#190 girl-gone-wild

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:42 AM

Bizarre troll


http://www.thinkpink.it/ ...... since 1978

and

http://www.thinkseascape.com/ ...... cumming soon

HOPE THIS IS SAILING RELATED

#191 Autograph

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:18 AM

This must be the point, reached in every thread, where someone accuses someone else of being a nazi, and all useful info/opinions stops. Shame, I was enjoying hearing about a pretty cool/different/fast/practical yacht. Good luck, Seascape, nice product.

#192 alsi

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:53 PM



Now this is interesting (comparison Esse /Seascape)

I've been looking for boats about this size for some time, and of course the Esse 850 was also on that list. Philen, could you elaborate on the differences of the two boats ? Performance, behavior, tacking angle etc.

Thanks for sharing


@LST

You'll certainly find people around Zürich who can give you better input on the Esse850 than me. I also have to add, that I usually sail the Esse 850 as a jib trimmer in the light fickle winds typical for summer around here, while the only time I have sailed the SSC 27 was in cold, gusting winds up to 20 kts. So my experience is a completely different one for two boats. But I can give you my 5 cents worth of oppinion, since of course to me the comparison begs to be made.
The Esse 850 was designed for the conditions on lake Zurich, but as you probably know, performes also very well in more wind (such as lake Garda). Compared to the SSC 27 she is 2 feet longer and one foot narrower. Sailarea to displacement is comparable, equally draft and keel/bulbweight. Tacking angle of the Esse in light air up to 7 kts is about 86 to 90 deg. In astronger breeze you can get close to around 75 deg. The SSC 27 I was told has a tacking angle of around 86 deg in light air. When I sailed her in strong winds we were not setup to really measure it but she certainly beats well to the wind. Judging from hullshape I would say the Esse has a slight advantage going upwind (but the SSC 27 has more possibilities to trim the jib sheet, and a slightly bigger tacking angle may be compensated by more speed resulting in similar VMG). Downwind I think the SSC 27 may outperform the Esse, bui this remains to be seen.
Both boats are very stiff and very stable. Build quality is excellent for the Esse and will hopefully be so for the SSC too.
Main difference is that the SSC offers considerably more space down below. You can take her on a 1 to 2 week coastal cruise, while this would be more of a camping trip with the Esse. The latter also offers little to no protection from waves. The Esse is sailed occasionally on the ocean for coastal regattas. But essentially she is a boat designed for racing on lakes. The SSC is more of a crossover concept between sportboat and performance cruiser. Reducing draft is easier in the SSC (swing keel) than with the lift keel of the Esse (for transport).

So why did I decide for the SSC? Well, at the time of her launch the Esse was out of my price range. I think, the Esse still runs at least 10-15% more expensive than the SSC will, but the end price of the SSC is not determined yet, and I don't know how much the Esse goes for these days. Further, my wife always maintained she wanted a real cabin were one can sit comfortably as well as sleep and eat occasionally. Of course the head is also a most welcome feature in the SSC.
Performancewise they will probably be quite close here on the lake, and also will be rated similarly. But this remains to be seen. Hope this helps.


While Seascape is selling her boat in Switzerland at dumping, predatory prices, her home country and the world is entering some very scary times. Economic markets are collapsing, people have nothing to eat in Greece. People all over the world are suffering and people are afraid and what happens when people are afraid. What happens when people are afraid? They become intolerant. They start pointing the finger at other people. They say you’re the reason, you’re the problem, you’re to blame. They say get out! Ok, and this of course you know is not the answer to the problem. The enemy is not out there, there is no such thing as an external enemy. The enemy is within. Now, I know that I have made a certain Christian very angry with me and it is not my intention to make enemies. No, it is not my intention to make enemies. It is my intention to promote tolerance. Ok? This is my intention and when we start saying we have to get rid of this person and we have to get rid of that group of people, because then we will have a better place it starts to sound like something else. It starts to sound like something scary, right. And you know if we don’t learn from history we’ll just repeat it. So the next time you wanna point the finger at somebody and blame them for your problem in your life take that finger and point it back at you and fix it. If you see a problem don’t complain, ok. Fix it.



Child, only a fatherly advice.

Don´t consume any more drugs whose effects do you not know!

#193 Bonky

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:37 PM

Just don't give it a platform.

Much more interesting questions are:
Are there any improvements for the boats performance or sailing features for the zero series production?
When will be the seascape web page oline?
Does the hatch at the back of the 27 have a special purpose?
Will there be a solution for a bathing ladder (family)?
When will be a price list available?
Is the seascape on the boot in Duesseldorf 2013?
Is the kitchen module? you are planning anything else for board life?

Bonky


#194 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:25 AM

> Are there any improvements for the boats performance or sailing features for the zero series production?
we're building a pre-production boat to test final modifications before we deliver the first boats. Some structural changes (full bottom sandwich) + smarter fibre layout should reduce the weight for serial boat compared to the proto, we are implementing some minor tweaks in the ergonomics & deck layout, etc.

>When will be the seascape web page oline?
Anytime soon.

>Does the hatch at the back of the 27 have a special purpose?
it is a way to access the autopilot ram, attached to the tiller's axe + good way to store fenders, mooring ropes, etc.

> Will there be a solution for a bathing ladder (family)?
most likely :)

>When will be a price list available?
It is available, every dealer has it.

>Is the seascape on the boot in Duesseldorf 2013?
Yes, we will use the Boot as a Premierre of the production boat.

>Is the kitchen module?
Yes, but not in a classic way. This is still a preformance oriented 27ft sailboat.

>you are planning anything else for board life?
the NOR dealer is very keen to instal a heating system which i think is not such a bad idea after a freezing weekend on lake Zurich.

#195 Peter Sifneos

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 06:35 AM

Will production boat have a smart pig as an option?

#196 Snajdarn

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:42 AM

Kristian, again, how much is the total towing weigth, complete boat + trailer ?

Thanks

#197 alsi

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:40 PM

@Kiristian,

I've read, over the winter you will make sail development.
Are Your insights then for the future owners and their sailmaker available or benefit only the buyer of 1one Sails?

#198 PetrS

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 04:51 PM

We have asked Kristian about towing and he replied the trailer has 660kg now and the prototype with all the equipment inside 1500kg. But as you can see some structural changes of the hull are still planned so I consider these numbers as not quite definitive.

#199 Kristian Seascape

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 07:54 PM

Trailer + boat are at 2000kg (trailer 600 and boat with stuff inside 1.400kg). With prototype we have some kg extra (heavy cradles, estra structure, etc.)
We are doing sail development at the moment (good excuse to sail :) with One Sails.

#200 Peter Sifneos

Peter Sifneos

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:02 PM

Will production boat have a smart pig as an option?


And does boat has navigation lights as standard?




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