433 replies to this topic

[PetrS]

We have asked Kristian about towing and he replied the trailer has 660kg now and the prototype with all the equipment inside 1500kg. But as you can see some structural changes of the hull are still planned so I consider these numbers as not quite definitive.

[Kristian Seascape]

Trailer + boat are at 2000kg (trailer 600 and boat with stuff inside 1.400kg). With prototype we have some kg extra (heavy cradles, estra structure, etc.)
We are doing sail development at the moment (good excuse to sail with One Sails.

[Peter Sifneos]

Will production boat have a smart pig as an option?

And does boat has navigation lights as standard?

[LST]

new video on the website of Voiles et Voiliers (in french). eventually you have to be a "member" to access the vid. so in short the say: nice fast boat, with a huge potential concerning speed, stability, seaworthiness.. but can't comment on the finished product since they sailed the proto (oh really ?), so they commented on the proto; which was more or less empty inside and some other things like water remains in the pit of the motor..

www.voilesetvoiliers.com/essais-et-comparatifs/essai-croisiere-cotiere-rapide-seascape-27-la-fusee-slovene-video/

[Overserved]

Can you say...USA 16

[jetfuel]

Can you say...USA 16

did you bring one in?

[Overserved]

As soon as the Seascape team can pop 1 thru 15 out of the mold

[jetfuel]

Where you located?

[alsi]

The SSC27 had its first race: http://www.facebook....if&notif_t=wall

[scrambled_words]

How much of communication devices are preinstalled in SSC27 in case big mistake which involves helicopter rescue is made? Does the keel acts as antenna when the boat is capsized? Are you able to make distress calls when trapped inside cabin of an upside down SSC27? Does hydraulic holds keel upright when SSC27 is capsized?

[Andraz Seascape18]

Scrabled, if the keel is on I would like to see you try and keep her up side down Sure Hydraulic is holding her at place at any angle. She will come out of the yard as sportboat but with all attachments to comply with ISAF cat3 race requirements.

And these are some details regarding the first race...

Some basic data in NOR. It is a roughly 100miles race from Mainland Croatia to to island of Jabuka in the middle of Adriatic and back with the start just before midnight. As you see in the NOR the size limit for boats is 940cm so we competed outside of official ranking but with agreement with the organiser. Idea was to show the potential of the boat which would allow start of Seascapes 27 next year in the one design class. Seascape arrived by road and was assembled on the day of the race (Thursday).

Race:
First part to Komorica: Rhumb line: 6.5M, sailed: 7.4M, Average speed 8.9kt
We rounded at 7th place behind 2 class 40, GS56 race, Open50, Figaro2 and Elan450.
Wind was from about 40degrees/10-15 kt on the start turning to about 70deg/15+ knots mid way going back to about 30deg/15kt at the end of the leg.

From Komorica to Jabuka, Rhumb line: 37M, sailed: 44M, average speed: 9,3kt
Very fast first part with the jibing angle of 60 degrees except in the last 4 miles to Jabuka where it got to about 90 degrees due to less wind and very big waves. Speeds in attachment. All the time on big kite and full main, boat fully under control and has some reserve in learning which angles she like and even more active sailing. Jibing is a piece of cake and she doesn't really decelerate when hitting the waves. All in all very fun sailing with a refreshing coffee made by Luka on the jetboil.
Wind at about 30deg/15kt in the start going to about 45deg/20+kt in the mid part and then back to 30deg, windspeed dropping towards Jabuka to about 10-15kt and turning to about 20deg at last miles.
We rounded Jabuka on 5th place, 40min behind leading Akilaria RC2 (Ola) and 25min behind GS56 race (Marina Kaštela) which was on 4th place. I estimate we lost additional 20min to Akilaria and 5-10min to GS56 from Komorica (speed difference of about 7% to Akilaria and about 3-4% to GS56.

From Jabuka to Blitvenica (Žirje)
No data due to battery life in the tracker.
First part shows nice 6.3kt average at about 45deg to the wind. When the wind started to rise towards 20kt we went to a reef and later when getting close to 25kt, to staysail. Since staysail proved to be pretty much crap we went back to the jib. Boatspeed was not to bad but still a lot to do regarding the mast trim and sail shape.
Wind: NNE from 15 to 25 in the mid part down to 10-15 closing to Blitvenica and further down to 5-10 at the last part.

From Blitvenica to Finish
With smaller waves and wind down to 10kt we made good progress towards bigger boats. Wind dropped completely in the islands and we managed to overtake some 10-15 boats with reacher and good crew work + winds spotting.
Wind: Between 0-3kt of SE and N with N eventually coming trough and building to some 5kt.

Finished 23rd with average speed from Start to Jabuka of about 9.2kt, Jabuka to Finish of about 5kt (keeping in mind last part was very slow) and overall average of 6.2kt. We ended up only 22min (about 2%, 0.12kt better speed average) behind Figaro2 that finished 8th and 4h after the Class40 (about 22%, most of it upwind).
Results here (our result is the one of X46 Muca Maca that we were with at the finish line).

Summary:
Biggest losses were in boat speed upwind (sail cut, trim) and upwind strategy. But all in all reassuring first result with good fun onboard. Cant wait for One design races like that.

Some speed results from downind leg:

10 second run = 14.71Knots

1

h run = 11.80Knots

500 meter run = 13.57Knots

[Koen]

@Andraz

Nice numbers!

Please tel us u made pictures/film during the race?!

[Jerryd]

Can you say...USA 16

If they would take a Martin 242 and a Rocket 22 in on trade(and maybe a few $$), I'd bring one in up the coast from you!

[LST]

Thanks Kristian for this write-up and congrats.

Hope we normal pleasure sailors can come close to these speeds...

As for the crappy staysail, was the sail in the beginning of your trials OK (from July to October), and then degenerated from heavy use.. or was it a new one (trials with One Sails) that proved to be not optimal ?

Fair winds

[Andraz Seascape18]

In fact it is the same one, she proved to be perfectly ok in terms of the concept - geometry and headstay tension we could achieve - but we never really focused on sail shapes at that point. Now we did and she is way to flat on the bottom part and to full on the top. Partly also because of the new deck layout. So we lacked power to punch trough the waves. New one is already under construction.

From the ease of how boat handled and keep in mind that was in pitch black (middle of the moonless night) I believe recreational sailor with some training should have little problems getting close to this speeds during the day

Also keep in mind production boat is going to be about 100kg lighter.

[LST]

Andraz
Thank you for clarifying. Some more questions: Deck layout: i reckon you have installed an easier system for the genoa/staysail sheet (inhauler /outhauler) ? Some pics ?
How many were you on board for this race ?
Boat weight: Where could you reduce 100 kg ? from the hull, or in the interior equipment ? What will be the final racing weight ? (still with 4 berths and a chemical toilet) ?

[Kristian Seascape]

> How much of communication devices are preinstalled in SSC27 in case big mistake which involves helicopter rescue is made?
none. to have proper equipment for the conditions is the responsibility of the user, not boatbuilder. which equipment is reccomended / required need is well defined by the Offshore Safety Rules.

>Does the keel acts as antenna when the boat is capsized?
no, that's ridiculous. keels are not antenas. if you get turtled, you need to activate EPIRB and not fiddle with VHF because it has a very short radius. In case of loosing the mast, OSR are requiring to have emergency VHF antena on board.

> Are you able to make distress calls when trapped inside cabin of an upside down SSC27?
In cases like this, you are not making distress calls, you activate EPIRB.However, SSC27 with 600kg in the keel and narrow beam will not stay inverted, unless the keel is gone.

> Does hydraulic holds keel upright when SSC27 is capsized?
Hydraulic ram locks the keel in position.

[Kristian Seascape]

> How many were you on board for this race ?
5 pers

>Boat weight: Where could you reduce 100 kg ?
only by changing the hull bottom from soric to PVC foam we gain 70kg. The interior pieces are glued in with flanges instead of glued with radius and taped (laminated). Fiber layouts were optimised to avoid unneccessary overlapping. Deck sandwichis done by thicker foam and lighter fibres to get more stiffness for less weight.
Mast tube is further optimised, loosing one kg in the tube and moving the VCG down. All these little details add together, not only by saving weight but much more importantly, by keeping the vertical centre of gravity as low as possible. This makes a stiff and safe boat to sail.
We also see the preformance increase by developing the sails, as the boat is stiff and stable, she can carry more sails that we expected. Mainsail size goes up with bigger square top, spinaker size increased from original 72 to 80 and there is still room for some more.Jib shape and staysail shapes are evolving too as Andraz wrote. Light wind preformance was good but with these weight savings and sail development it will improve even more.

(On top of all that, only by replacing that heavy ceramic toilet which was is inside for a plastic one, we can save 15kg. Replacing the 10HP engine with 6hp which is well enough, will save another 15 kg...)

[scrambled_words]

> How much of communication devices are preinstalled in SSC27 in case big mistake which involves helicopter rescue is made?
none. to have proper equipment for the conditions is the responsibility of the user, not boatbuilder. which equipment is reccomended / required need is well defined by the Offshore Safety Rules.

>Does the keel acts as antenna when the boat is capsized?
no, that's ridiculous. keels are not antenas. if you get turtled, you need to activate EPIRB and not fiddle with VHF because it has a very short radius. In case of loosing the mast, OSR are requiring to have emergency VHF antena on board.

> Are you able to make distress calls when trapped inside cabin of an upside down SSC27?
In cases like this, you are not making distress calls, you activate EPIRB.However, SSC27 with 600kg in the keel and narrow beam will not stay inverted, unless the keel is gone.

> Does hydraulic holds keel upright when SSC27 is capsized?
Hydraulic ram locks the keel in position.

Sure, thanks mate. It’s identical when you get a satellite phone as a free gift and you have to buy credit plan for calls later.
Now that you sailed and raced both mini transat boat and SSC27 you might compare them. What are strengths and weaknesses of one design over the other?
What is maximum load of SSC27?

[alsi]

Can the SSC27 be equipped by shipyard with the following positions?

• Under deck furler endless for the jip
• Single line reefing system for reef 1 and 2 (retrofitted with a carbon fiber mast is not necessarily recommended.)
• lift system with anchorage points in the boot (ideal for a berth ashore)
• underwater escape hatch for docking for a submarine

[Peter Sifneos]

> How much of communication devices are preinstalled in SSC27 in case big mistake which involves helicopter rescue is made?
none. to have proper equipment for the conditions is the responsibility of the user, not boatbuilder. which equipment is reccomended / required need is well defined by the Offshore Safety Rules.

>Does the keel acts as antenna when the boat is capsized?
no, that's ridiculous. keels are not antenas. if you get turtled, you need to activate EPIRB and not fiddle with VHF because it has a very short radius. In case of loosing the mast, OSR are requiring to have emergency VHF antena on board.

> Are you able to make distress calls when trapped inside cabin of an upside down SSC27?
In cases like this, you are not making distress calls, you activate EPIRB.However, SSC27 with 600kg in the keel and narrow beam will not stay inverted, unless the keel is gone.

> Does hydraulic holds keel upright when SSC27 is capsized?
Hydraulic ram locks the keel in position.

Sure, thanks mate. It’s identical when you get a satellite phone as a free gift and you have to buy credit plan for calls later.
Now that you sailed and raced both mini transat boat and SSC27 you might compare them. What are strengths and weaknesses of one design over the other?
What is maximum load of SSC27?

Kristijan you aint just a builder, you are also a terrific sailor. *A truly inspiration to me* I actually don’t want to sail SSC27, because your and Andraz company in a race means all others could never get to first place and being always second is not an option for everyone.

Ha, ha, how many load it could take, LOL, That’s the loveliest one.

[alsi]

> How much of communication devices are preinstalled in SSC27 in case big mistake which involves helicopter rescue is made?
none. to have proper equipment for the conditions is the responsibility of the user, not boatbuilder. which equipment is reccomended / required need is well defined by the Offshore Safety Rules.

>Does the keel acts as antenna when the boat is capsized?
no, that's ridiculous. keels are not antenas. if you get turtled, you need to activate EPIRB and not fiddle with VHF because it has a very short radius. In case of loosing the mast, OSR are requiring to have emergency VHF antena on board.

> Are you able to make distress calls when trapped inside cabin of an upside down SSC27?
In cases like this, you are not making distress calls, you activate EPIRB.However, SSC27 with 600kg in the keel and narrow beam will not stay inverted, unless the keel is gone.

> Does hydraulic holds keel upright when SSC27 is capsized?
Hydraulic ram locks the keel in position.

Sure, thanks mate. It’s identical when you get a satellite phone as a free gift and you have to buy credit plan for calls later.
Now that you sailed and raced both mini transat boat and SSC27 you might compare them. What are strengths and weaknesses of one design over the other?
What is maximum load of SSC27?

Kristijan you aint just a builder, you are also a terrific sailor. *A truly inspiration to me* I actually don’t want to sail SSC27, because your and Andraz company in a race means all others could never get to first place and being always second is not an option for everyone.

Ha, ha, how many load it could take, LOL, That’s the loveliest one.

Who knows? http://segelreporter...n-unter-segeln/

[Kristian Seascape]

Kristijan you aint just a builder, you are also a terrific sailor. *A truly inspiration to me* I actually don’t want to sail SSC27, because your and Andraz company in a race means all others could never get to first place and being always second is not an option for everyone.

Ha, that's a good one! But sorry, you must have confused me with somebody else. Since we started boatbuilding, our sailing time has dropped almost to zero, so it is close to impossible to see us on the race, let alone do good on it ... you know we are like Yetti: people claim they saw us on a race, but nobody believe them anymore

[scrambled_words]

> How much of communication devices are preinstalled in SSC27 in case big mistake which involves helicopter rescue is made?
none. to have proper equipment for the conditions is the responsibility of the user, not boatbuilder. which equipment is reccomended / required need is well defined by the Offshore Safety Rules.

>Does the keel acts as antenna when the boat is capsized?
no, that's ridiculous. keels are not antenas. if you get turtled, you need to activate EPIRB and not fiddle with VHF because it has a very short radius. In case of loosing the mast, OSR are requiring to have emergency VHF antena on board.

> Are you able to make distress calls when trapped inside cabin of an upside down SSC27?
In cases like this, you are not making distress calls, you activate EPIRB.However, SSC27 with 600kg in the keel and narrow beam will not stay inverted, unless the keel is gone.

> Does hydraulic holds keel upright when SSC27 is capsized?
Hydraulic ram locks the keel in position.

Sure, thanks mate. It’s identical when you get a satellite phone as a free gift and you have to buy credit plan for calls later.
Now that you sailed and raced both mini transat boat and SSC27 you might compare them. What are strengths and weaknesses of one design over the other?
What is maximum load of SSC27?

Kristijan you aint just a builder, you are also a terrific sailor. *A truly inspiration to me* I actually don’t want to sail SSC27, because your and Andraz company in a race means all others could never get to first place and being always second is not an option for everyone.

Ha, ha, how many load it could take, LOL, That’s the loveliest one.

Who knows? http://segelreporter...n-unter-segeln/

Junkies are people with big problems of dependence on substances, sex or work. Dealers are compassionate people who want to help them and get something in return for their help. Unfortunately I have no compassion for junkies, but if dealers like to help junkies that’s their problem I guess.

[LST]

sailing is quite addictive ...i guess i'm not the only one

[Overserved]

Can you say...USA 16

If they would take a Martin 242 and a Rocket 22 in on trade(and maybe a few $$), I'd bring one in up the coast from you!

Come on dig deep and get one!

[Dimi]

@ Philen

Thank you for your 5 cts ; ) So it seems SSC could be tough challenger for the Esse. I agree with you that the versatility of the SSC unequaled. Thats why i went for the SSC as well.
I will be very interested to see both boats compete on the water, and how the slightly shorter SSC takes the waves upwind. IMO this could be the biggest disadvantage. Are you on Lake Zürich ? I will have my SSC on the shores of Lake Neuchatel ; ) ... can't wait.

@Kristian, LST and Philen,

When talking about the performance it is also important - in handicap fleets - to consider the rating. Since in Switzerland the so-called SRS-formula is becoming the prevalent rating formula, it would be very interesting to know the rating.

If Kristian or someone at Seascape would have some time (during the long winter...) to fill out the form at the following link http://www.swissrati...f/SrsJauTst.xsp (which has nice pictures to explain) and then make a screenshot and push the button "compute SRS-rating" we would be settled on this one.
Dear Kristian or whoever, thanks a lot in advance!

Dimi

[Overserved]

@ Philen

Thank you for your 5 cts ; ) So it seems SSC could be tough challenger for the Esse. I agree with you that the versatility of the SSC unequaled. Thats why i went for the SSC as well.
I will be very interested to see both boats compete on the water, and how the slightly shorter SSC takes the waves upwind. IMO this could be the biggest disadvantage. Are you on Lake Zürich ? I will have my SSC on the shores of Lake Neuchatel ; ) ... can't wait.

@Kristian, LST and Philen,

When talking about the performance it is also important - in handicap fleets - to consider the rating. Since in Switzerland the so-called SRS-formula is becoming the prevalent rating formula, it would be very interesting to know the rating.

If Kristian or someone at Seascape would have some time (during the long winter...) to fill out the form at the following link http://www.swissrati...f/SrsJauTst.xsp (which has nice pictures to explain) and then make a screenshot and push the button "compute SRS-rating" we would be settled on this one.
Dear Kristian or whoever, thanks a lot in advance!

Dimi

So out of curiosity and for comparison, what does the Esse 850 and a Melges 24 rate in the SRS formula?

[Dimi]

@ Philen

Thank you for your 5 cts ; ) So it seems SSC could be tough challenger for the Esse. I agree with you that the versatility of the SSC unequaled. Thats why i went for the SSC as well.
I will be very interested to see both boats compete on the water, and how the slightly shorter SSC takes the waves upwind. IMO this could be the biggest disadvantage. Are you on Lake Zürich ? I will have my SSC on the shores of Lake Neuchatel ; ) ... can't wait.

@Kristian, LST and Philen,

When talking about the performance it is also important - in handicap fleets - to consider the rating. Since in Switzerland the so-called SRS-formula is becoming the prevalent rating formula, it would be very interesting to know the rating.

If Kristian or someone at Seascape would have some time (during the long winter...) to fill out the form at the following link http://www.swissrati...f/SrsJauTst.xsp (which has nice pictures to explain) and then make a screenshot and push the button "compute SRS-rating" we would be settled on this one.
Dear Kristian or whoever, thanks a lot in advance!

Dimi

So out of curiosity and for comparison, what does the Esse 850 and a Melges 24 rate in the SRS formula?

The Esse 850 is 1.105 and the Melges 24 1.044, meaning the Esse 850 owes quite some time to the Melges 24.

[Overserved]

@ Philen

Thank you for your 5 cts ; ) So it seems SSC could be tough challenger for the Esse. I agree with you that the versatility of the SSC unequaled. Thats why i went for the SSC as well.
I will be very interested to see both boats compete on the water, and how the slightly shorter SSC takes the waves upwind. IMO this could be the biggest disadvantage. Are you on Lake Zürich ? I will have my SSC on the shores of Lake Neuchatel ; ) ... can't wait.

@Kristian, LST and Philen,

When talking about the performance it is also important - in handicap fleets - to consider the rating. Since in Switzerland the so-called SRS-formula is becoming the prevalent rating formula, it would be very interesting to know the rating.

If Kristian or someone at Seascape would have some time (during the long winter...) to fill out the form at the following link http://www.swissrati...f/SrsJauTst.xsp (which has nice pictures to explain) and then make a screenshot and push the button "compute SRS-rating" we would be settled on this one.
Dear Kristian or whoever, thanks a lot in advance!

Dimi

So out of curiosity and for comparison, what does the Esse 850 and a Melges 24 rate in the SRS formula?

The Esse 850 is 1.105 and the Melges 24 1.044, meaning the Esse 850 owes quite some time to the Melges 24.

That is how it is in the states as well under PHRF(Esse =75 and Melges = 93 or 18 secs a mile) so it will be interesting to see where the SSC27 falls in.

[alsi]

@ Philen

Thank you for your 5 cts ; ) So it seems SSC could be tough challenger for the Esse. I agree with you that the versatility of the SSC unequaled. Thats why i went for the SSC as well.
I will be very interested to see both boats compete on the water, and how the slightly shorter SSC takes the waves upwind. IMO this could be the biggest disadvantage. Are you on Lake Zürich ? I will have my SSC on the shores of Lake Neuchatel ; ) ... can't wait.

@Kristian, LST and Philen,

When talking about the performance it is also important - in handicap fleets - to consider the rating. Since in Switzerland the so-called SRS-formula is becoming the prevalent rating formula, it would be very interesting to know the rating.

If Kristian or someone at Seascape would have some time (during the long winter...) to fill out the form at the following link http://www.swissrati...f/SrsJauTst.xsp (which has nice pictures to explain) and then make a screenshot and push the button "compute SRS-rating" we would be settled on this one.
Dear Kristian or whoever, thanks a lot in advance!

Dimi

So out of curiosity and for comparison, what does the Esse 850 and a Melges 24 rate in the SRS formula?

The Esse 850 is 1.105 and the Melges 24 1.044, meaning the Esse 850 owes quite some time to the Melges 24.

That is how it is in the states as well under PHRF(Esse =75 and Melges = 93 or 18 secs a mile) so it will be interesting to see where the SSC27 falls in.

The SRS is only slightly better than YST.
The hull shape is not considered properly and there is no difference between long distance and up and down.
To compare the different hull shapes you need about 3500 data points or a hull file. The ORC organization gets the hull file from Seascape. This important route bypasses SRS. People spend so much money on technology that makes their boats faster, but 50 EUR for a measurement certificate they have not.
I had no hull file. That cost me once 250 EUR to make it. For that I have for amateur sports a sufficiently good VPP table and it makes me considerably faster than high-performance blocks.

If you want to compare different boats with figures, you should do it at least with ORC-Club

[Kristian Seascape]

Guys, I will check with the SRS and let you know.

... tried, but the calculator is not happy with the sizes, saying: LOA < 5.5 ou LOA > 15.5
So where is the trick, is this just for smaller than 5.5m and bigger than 15.5m?

[Dimi]

Dear Kristian, you have to be careful with the decimal separators, on my system (PC Windows) I have to put dots and not commas (8.00 and not 8,00). Thank you anyway. Regarding the length you have to be careful I attach a pdf copy of the instructions since this is a little bit tricky:
LOA: The bowsprit is only to be taken into consideration if used for upwind sails (which is not the case for the seascape)
FO: the same holds true for FO (without bowsprit in the case od seascape)
TLW: is to be measured from the end of the rudder to the end of the bowsprit (extended); should the difference between TLW and LOA be more than 1 meter (normally an error message pops up in this case), the LOA has to be increased till the TLW is only 1 meter longer.
I admit it is a bit cumbersome, but that's the only chance to compete with a handicap system for the moment; ORC-Club is disappearing.
Measurement instructions:  SRS Vermessungsregeln Kompatibilitätsmodus.pdf   642.76K   17 downloads

[alsi]

ORC-Club is disappearing.

I just calculated my boat with SRS.
Conclusion: SRS is much better for us than ORC Club.
We get about 2 minutes on 100 minutes given

Vote for SRS on Lake Constance!!!

I'm sure, the very fast hull from the SSC 27 is not properly valued by SRS. They will rated very beneficial. What is not bad.

@Dimi, in fact, it has also ORC on Lake Constance very difficult, but it is not yet dead.
Sailing with YST or SRS is sailing on snack bar level. That should never forget.

But that should not interest the future owner of a SSC27.
I think the SSC27 starts soon as a separate class.

[LST]

Hey alsi

What did you get number wise ? I would have thought the SSC27 would be a bit worse than the esse 850. Can you share the numpers you put in ? I don't know he mesurements of the sails, so i didn't bother to try to get a SRS Rating.

Thanks

[alsi]

Hi LST,

I only have the numbers of my boat.

I also think, with SRS computed, the SSC27 is slower than the Esse 8.50.
But I think the SSC27 will be really faster. Especially the big difference from the hull of the Esse 8.50 to the SSC27 will not handled correctly with SRS .

Therefore I do not believe in comparing the performance of different boats with SRS.

Wait and see what Kritian published.

[TocToc]

Dimi,
I think your explanation about TWL is not correct - not one of the existing boats are measured like this (esse 850: https://www.swissrat...0002A32&mod=dsp ... do they have no bowsprit?)
The bowsprit is only important if it used for upwind sails.
I think this is an error of the translation from french to german.

Dear Kristian, you have to be careful with the decimal separators, on my system (PC Windows) I have to put dots and not commas (8.00 and not 8,00). Thank you anyway. Regarding the length you have to be careful I attach a pdf copy of the instructions since this is a little bit tricky:
LOA: The bowsprit is only to be taken into consideration if used for upwind sails (which is not the case for the seascape)
FO: the same holds true for FO (without bowsprit in the case od seascape)
TLW: is to be measured from the end of the rudder to the end of the bowsprit (extended); should the difference between TLW and LOA be more than 1 meter (normally an error message pops up in this case), the LOA has to be increased till the TLW is only 1 meter longer.
I admit it is a bit cumbersome, but that's the only chance to compete with a handicap system for the moment; ORC-Club is disappearing.
Measurement instructions:  SRS Vermessungsregeln Kompatibilitätsmodus.pdf   642.76K   17 downloads

http://t780.blogspot.com - https://www.swissrat...000A7BE&mod=dsp

[alsi]

Dimi,
I think your explanation about TWL is not correct - not one of the existing boats are measured like this (esse 850: https://www.swissrat...0002A32&mod=dsp ... do they have no bowsprit?)
The bowsprit is only important if it used for upwind sails.
I think this is an error of the translation from french to german.

Dear Kristian, you have to be careful with the decimal separators, on my system (PC Windows) I have to put dots and not commas (8.00 and not 8,00). Thank you anyway. Regarding the length you have to be careful I attach a pdf copy of the instructions since this is a little bit tricky:
LOA: The bowsprit is only to be taken into consideration if used for upwind sails (which is not the case for the seascape)
FO: the same holds true for FO (without bowsprit in the case od seascape)
TLW: is to be measured from the end of the rudder to the end of the bowsprit (extended); should the difference between TLW and LOA be more than 1 meter (normally an error message pops up in this case), the LOA has to be increased till the TLW is only 1 meter longer.
I admit it is a bit cumbersome, but that's the only chance to compete with a handicap system for the moment; ORC-Club is disappearing.
Measurement instructions:  SRS Vermessungsregeln Kompatibilitätsmodus.pdf   642.76K   17 downloads

http://t780.blogspot.com - https://www.swissrat...000A7BE&mod=dsp

I also think, the gennaker pole is considered until MTL.

[Dimi]

Dimi,
I think your explanation about TWL is not correct - not one of the existing boats are measured like this (esse 850: https://www.swissrat...0002A32&mod=dsp ... do they have no bowsprit?)
The bowsprit is only important if it used for upwind sails.
I think this is an error of the translation from french to german.

Dear Kristian, you have to be careful with the decimal separators, on my system (PC Windows) I have to put dots and not commas (8.00 and not 8,00). Thank you anyway. Regarding the length you have to be careful I attach a pdf copy of the instructions since this is a little bit tricky:
LOA: The bowsprit is only to be taken into consideration if used for upwind sails (which is not the case for the seascape)
FO: the same holds true for FO (without bowsprit in the case od seascape)
TLW: is to be measured from the end of the rudder to the end of the bowsprit (extended); should the difference between TLW and LOA be more than 1 meter (normally an error message pops up in this case), the LOA has to be increased till the TLW is only 1 meter longer.
I admit it is a bit cumbersome, but that's the only chance to compete with a handicap system for the moment; ORC-Club is disappearing.
Measurement instructions:  SRS Vermessungsregeln Kompatibilitätsmodus.pdf   642.76K   17 downloads

http://t780.blogspot.com - https://www.swissrat...000A7BE&mod=dsp

TocToc,
If you look at page 8 of the measurement instructions about TLW, you will notice that there are two "bowsprit", one used for upwind (labelled as "bout-dehors pour le près" in the drawing which stems from the original instruction issued in french) and one for downwind. I admit that the drawing talks about "tangon rétracté au maximum (coulissant)", which means pulled in to the maximum (sliding), which would speak in your favour. However, I think this does not make much sense, since almost all retractable bowsprits can be completely retracted into the bow. I also asked the head of the measurement committee who confirmed my view orally over the phone.

As regards the comparables for Esse 850 and T-boat it appears that for the Esse TLW and LOA are the same, which would mean that the Esse has a bowsprit of max. 1m; however for the t-boat TLW is greater than LOA (probably due to a quite long bowsprit). Accordingly these measure would not be against my interpretation.

In any case if Kristian fills in all the other figures and if we know the length of the bowsprit and the appended rudderblades this parameter can be amended once we have certainty on this point.

Dimi

[Dimi]

Hi LST,

I only have the numbers of my boat.

I also think, with SRS computed, the SSC27 is slower than the Esse 8.50.
But I think the SSC27 will be really faster. Especially the big difference from the hull of the Esse 8.50 to the SSC27 will not handled correctly with SRS .

Therefore I do not believe in comparing the performance of different boats with SRS.

Wait and see what Kritian published.

Hi alsi,
I agree that SRS is not a very sophisticated tool to compare the performance, but if you are racing in a handicap fleet using this formula (like we do on the "Vierwaldstättersee" ) this is what counts. Till a SSC one design class has established with races in Switzerland (and perhaps neighboring countries) it will take quite a time (if it becomes once reality at all...). Having said that, of course I hope SSC will have such a success to have a large fleet and and active one design class; but in the end there are not many boats which managed to get there during the last decades.

[Christian]

Dimi,
I think your explanation about TWL is not correct - not one of the existing boats are measured like this (esse 850: https://www.swissrat...0002A32&mod=dsp ... do they have no bowsprit?)
The bowsprit is only important if it used for upwind sails.
I think this is an error of the translation from french to german.

Dear Kristian, you have to be careful with the decimal separators, on my system (PC Windows) I have to put dots and not commas (8.00 and not 8,00). Thank you anyway. Regarding the length you have to be careful I attach a pdf copy of the instructions since this is a little bit tricky:
LOA: The bowsprit is only to be taken into consideration if used for upwind sails (which is not the case for the seascape)
FO: the same holds true for FO (without bowsprit in the case od seascape)
TLW: is to be measured from the end of the rudder to the end of the bowsprit (extended); should the difference between TLW and LOA be more than 1 meter (normally an error message pops up in this case), the LOA has to be increased till the TLW is only 1 meter longer.
I admit it is a bit cumbersome, but that's the only chance to compete with a handicap system for the moment; ORC-Club is disappearing.
Measurement instructions:  SRS Vermessungsregeln Kompatibilitätsmodus.pdf   642.76K   17 downloads

http://t780.blogspot.com - https://www.swissrat...000A7BE&mod=dsp

TocToc,
If you look at page 8 of the measurement instructions about TLW, you will notice that there are two "bowsprit", one used for upwind (labelled as "bout-dehors pour le près" in the drawing which stems from the original instruction issued in french) and one for downwind. I admit that the drawing talks about "tangon rétracté au maximum (coulissant)", which means pulled in to the maximum (sliding), which would speak in your favour. However, I think this does not make much sense, since almost all retractable bowsprits can be completely retracted into the bow. I also asked the head of the measurement committee who confirmed my view orally over the phone.

As regards the comparables for Esse 850 and T-boat it appears that for the Esse TLW and LOA are the same, which would mean that the Esse has a bowsprit of max. 1m; however for the t-boat TLW is greater than LOA (probably due to a quite long bowsprit). Accordingly these measure would not be against my interpretation.

In any case if Kristian fills in all the other figures and if we know the length of the bowsprit and the appended rudderblades this parameter can be amended once we have certainty on this point.

Dimi

The Esse 850 prod sticks out 1.9 m past J so at least 1.8m past the bow

[alsi]

Hi LST,

I only have the numbers of my boat.

I also think, with SRS computed, the SSC27 is slower than the Esse 8.50.
But I think the SSC27 will be really faster. Especially the big difference from the hull of the Esse 8.50 to the SSC27 will not handled correctly with SRS .

Therefore I do not believe in comparing the performance of different boats with SRS.

Wait and see what Kritian published.

Hi alsi,
I agree that SRS is not a very sophisticated tool to compare the performance, but if you are racing in a handicap fleet using this formula (like we do on the "Vierwaldstättersee" ) this is what counts. Till a SSC one design class has established with races in Switzerland (and perhaps neighboring countries) it will take quite a time (if it becomes once reality at all...). Having said that, of course I hope SSC will have such a success to have a large fleet and and active one design class; but in the end there are not many boats which managed to get there during the last decades.

Hi Dimi,

with slow wind, it does not matter if you start in ORC Club, SRS or YST.
With a few exceptions (eg X99, Onixe) fit all the values to each other well.

But those who want to do a high-profile event, as many clubs strive, because does not fit a rating system like YST and SRS.

I mean really, the SSC27 is for years the first yacht that has the potential to make a great one design class.
But not only the boat is important for a functioning class. Much will also depend from that what the class association organizes.
Because many classes are failed about that.

[Dimi]

Hi LST,

I only have the numbers of my boat.

I also think, with SRS computed, the SSC27 is slower than the Esse 8.50.
But I think the SSC27 will be really faster. Especially the big difference from the hull of the Esse 8.50 to the SSC27 will not handled correctly with SRS .

Therefore I do not believe in comparing the performance of different boats with SRS.

Wait and see what Kritian published.

Hi alsi,
I agree that SRS is not a very sophisticated tool to compare the performance, but if you are racing in a handicap fleet using this formula (like we do on the "Vierwaldstättersee" ) this is what counts. Till a SSC one design class has established with races in Switzerland (and perhaps neighboring countries) it will take quite a time (if it becomes once reality at all...). Having said that, of course I hope SSC will have such a success to have a large fleet and and active one design class; but in the end there are not many boats which managed to get there during the last decades.

Hi Dimi,

with slow wind, it does not matter if you start in ORC Club, SRS or YST.
With a few exceptions (eg X99, Onixe) fit all the values to each other well.

But those who want to do a high-profile event, as many clubs strive, because does not fit a rating system like YST and SRS.

I mean really, the SSC27 is for years the first yacht that has the potential to make a great one design class.
But not only the boat is important for a functioning class. Much will also depend from that what the class association organizes.
Because many classes are failed about that.

I agree, let's hope that SSC will become a great one design class!

[Dimi]

Dimi,
I think your explanation about TWL is not correct - not one of the existing boats are measured like this (esse 850: https://www.swissrat...0002A32&mod=dsp ... do they have no bowsprit?)
The bowsprit is only important if it used for upwind sails.
I think this is an error of the translation from french to german.

Dear Kristian, you have to be careful with the decimal separators, on my system (PC Windows) I have to put dots and not commas (8.00 and not 8,00). Thank you anyway. Regarding the length you have to be careful I attach a pdf copy of the instructions since this is a little bit tricky:
LOA: The bowsprit is only to be taken into consideration if used for upwind sails (which is not the case for the seascape)
FO: the same holds true for FO (without bowsprit in the case od seascape)
TLW: is to be measured from the end of the rudder to the end of the bowsprit (extended); should the difference between TLW and LOA be more than 1 meter (normally an error message pops up in this case), the LOA has to be increased till the TLW is only 1 meter longer.
I admit it is a bit cumbersome, but that's the only chance to compete with a handicap system for the moment; ORC-Club is disappearing.
Measurement instructions:  SRS Vermessungsregeln Kompatibilitätsmodus.pdf   642.76K   17 downloads

http://t780.blogspot.com - https://www.swissrat...000A7BE&mod=dsp

TocToc,
If you look at page 8 of the measurement instructions about TLW, you will notice that there are two "bowsprit", one used for upwind (labelled as "bout-dehors pour le près" in the drawing which stems from the original instruction issued in french) and one for downwind. I admit that the drawing talks about "tangon rétracté au maximum (coulissant)", which means pulled in to the maximum (sliding), which would speak in your favour. However, I think this does not make much sense, since almost all retractable bowsprits can be completely retracted into the bow. I also asked the head of the measurement committee who confirmed my view orally over the phone.

As regards the comparables for Esse 850 and T-boat it appears that for the Esse TLW and LOA are the same, which would mean that the Esse has a bowsprit of max. 1m; however for the t-boat TLW is greater than LOA (probably due to a quite long bowsprit). Accordingly these measure would not be against my interpretation.

In any case if Kristian fills in all the other figures and if we know the length of the bowsprit and the appended rudderblades this parameter can be amended once we have certainty on this point.

Dimi

The Esse 850 prod sticks out 1.9 m past J so at least 1.8m past the bow

Ok, I will check this TLW / LOA issue with our local measurement committee-guys.

[Dimi]

Dimi,
I think your explanation about TWL is not correct - not one of the existing boats are measured like this (esse 850: https://www.swissrat...0002A32&mod=dsp ... do they have no bowsprit?)
The bowsprit is only important if it used for upwind sails.
I think this is an error of the translation from french to german.

Dear Kristian, you have to be careful with the decimal separators, on my system (PC Windows) I have to put dots and not commas (8.00 and not 8,00). Thank you anyway. Regarding the length you have to be careful I attach a pdf copy of the instructions since this is a little bit tricky:
LOA: The bowsprit is only to be taken into consideration if used for upwind sails (which is not the case for the seascape)
FO: the same holds true for FO (without bowsprit in the case od seascape)
TLW: is to be measured from the end of the rudder to the end of the bowsprit (extended); should the difference between TLW and LOA be more than 1 meter (normally an error message pops up in this case), the LOA has to be increased till the TLW is only 1 meter longer.
I admit it is a bit cumbersome, but that's the only chance to compete with a handicap system for the moment; ORC-Club is disappearing.
Measurement instructions:  SRS Vermessungsregeln Kompatibilitätsmodus.pdf   642.76K   17 downloads

http://t780.blogspot.com - https://www.swissrat...000A7BE&mod=dsp

TocToc,
If you look at page 8 of the measurement instructions about TLW, you will notice that there are two "bowsprit", one used for upwind (labelled as "bout-dehors pour le près" in the drawing which stems from the original instruction issued in french) and one for downwind. I admit that the drawing talks about "tangon rétracté au maximum (coulissant)", which means pulled in to the maximum (sliding), which would speak in your favour. However, I think this does not make much sense, since almost all retractable bowsprits can be completely retracted into the bow. I also asked the head of the measurement committee who confirmed my view orally over the phone.

As regards the comparables for Esse 850 and T-boat it appears that for the Esse TLW and LOA are the same, which would mean that the Esse has a bowsprit of max. 1m; however for the t-boat TLW is greater than LOA (probably due to a quite long bowsprit). Accordingly these measure would not be against my interpretation.

In any case if Kristian fills in all the other figures and if we know the length of the bowsprit and the appended rudderblades this parameter can be amended once we have certainty on this point.

Dimi

The Esse 850 prod sticks out 1.9 m past J so at least 1.8m past the bow

Ok, I will check this TLW / LOA issue with our local measurement committee-guys.

You are probably right, the original text of the rules speaks in your favour:
"TLW: Longueur d'encombrement sur l'eau, en configuration de navigation au prés, mesurée du point le plus avancé de tout élément du bateau au point le plus en arrière (incluant tous les éléments telles que safran, jupe, balcon, bout-dehors rentré, etc…) à l’exception exclusive du moteur hors-bord qui ne compte pas dans la mesure de TLW. Il est toutefois fortement recommandé de le retirer afin de réduire les risques de contact du à l’augmentation du rayon d’évitement. Une tolérance de 1.0 mètre est admise pour autant que les extensions ne contribuent pas à une augmentation de la performance du bateau (pataras ou bastaque cachée par exemple), autrement la valeur de LOA doit être adaptée en conséquence. Les éléments mobiles utilisés pour la navigation au vent arrière dépassant de LOA ne peuvent être mise en place que si une voile de vent arrière est établie et doivent être rentré immédiatement après avoir affalée celle-ci. S'ils restent en position, ils doivent être considérés comme faisant partie de TLW."

[FatimaRules]

What's the electronics pack that's sporting? The big screen mast unit looks good?

Who's the UK designated dealer?

[Kristian Seascape]

I did the first iteration for the SRS, please find the results below. I do not know whether this is good or bad, but surely there is a lot of room for optimizing.
For example, if we increase the empty boat weight from 1.300kg to 1.500kg, the numbers change to: 1,093 / 1,191 / 1,127 / 1,118 /
Then again, if you use bigger mainsail, the numbers go up again, nullifyig the weight gains. Questions remail whether you are using the engine, weight of batteries, etc...

If I see correctly Melges 24 has 1.044, Esse 750 has 1.054 and Esse 850 has 1.105.


 SRS_raw.jpg   48.54K   10 downloads

I do not want to go in the conceptual debate whether the SRS is good or not, but to me the fundamental flaw of ANY rating system is plainly obvious. Instead of having light and stiff /stable/ boat that is safe and easy to sail, you are rewarded for adding weight to the boat, rising the VCoG and loading everything up. To me, this doesn't make any sense.

[Peter Sifneos]

hi guys,
I do not fancy getting into the debate whether the ISO standards are adequate or not, because they are accepted as a bechmark by guys who are more experienced than us However, I do have some comments about abovementioned replies...
IRC - in this config., forget about it. Boat is simply too light and too stable for IRC and you'll get the get a very punishing numbers. We tried to optimize the boat for IRC but the people in charge looked at teh concept and said "forget about it". In the last years we saw a move in rating that punishes light and fast boats, because after all, bhe big boys investing some serious cash in their big toys, cannot afford not to come home without some silverware. So if you're shorter than let's say 50 ft, your chances of winning an IRC event are fairly slim.
Regarding the upwind speeds, we just observed what we got, without too much optimizing: in powered up conditions, the boat can sail at 5.8kt @ 40° or 6-6.2kt@ 45°making roughly the same VMG. in strong conditions (25kts) with staysail and 1st reef, the boat will sail at 6,2kt. Tacking angle is strongly dependant on the waves and sea state.
And as always with the fast boats, if you crack the sheets a bit, not very careful driver can quickly start chasing numbers by bearing away...

http://postimage.org/image/br07ribhx/
http://postimage.org/image/rhgqor8a1/
http://postimage.org/image/my4i38qeh/

p.s. And yes, we plan to have a kitchen using the JetBoil burners...

Sure in Switzerland they have most of cash. Is it that why SRS rating is better than IRC?

My SSC27 will be named Ricola.

[Dimi]

I did the first iteration for the SRS, please find the results below. I do not know whether this is good or bad, but surely there is a lot of room for optimizing.
For example, if we increase the empty boat weight from 1.300kg to 1.500kg, the numbers change to: 1,093 / 1,191 / 1,127 / 1,118 /
Then again, if you use bigger mainsail, the numbers go up again, nullifyig the weight gains. Questions remail whether you are using the engine, weight of batteries, etc...

If I see correctly Melges 24 has 1.044, Esse 750 has 1.054 and Esse 850 has 1.105.


 SRS_raw.jpg   48.54K   10 downloads

I do not want to go in the conceptual debate whether the SRS is good or not, but to me the fundamental flaw of ANY rating system is plainly obvious. Instead of having light and stiff /stable/ boat that is safe and easy to sail, you are rewarded for adding weight to the boat, rising the VCoG and loading everything up. To me, this doesn't make any sense.

Thanks a lot Kristian,
Would you mind uploading the numbers you filled in the form?
I understand you inserted 1300 kg instead of 1150, for what did you add 150kg (basically just the mainsail is included in weight) ?
1.113 is the rating of the Onyx-boats. It also means that you owe time to the Esse 850, which is going to be tough. I doubt the SSC can follow them upwind and you owe them time, which means you have to be really fast downwind.
I would have hoped that the modern hull shape of the SSC would not be taken in account and the other parameters given a lower rating. It is astonishing that the rating for the SSC is higher than the Esse 850 which is a pure inshore racing boat, which is longer, lighter and has the same sail area upwind, with probably a higher mast and a smaller genoa/jib.

Having said that I absolutely agree with what Chrisitan said about the one design class.
Dimi

[Kristian Seascape]

i was very reluctant in doing this calculation as it is just a rough estimate which should give you some ballpark. Too many things influence the rating and you don't take them into account. Batteries and engine is one example as they can add another 60-100kg, geometry of the sails, sail surface distribution, even the apendices. Like transom hung rudders are penalized as the virtually extend the LOA while Esse850 has actualy longer WL with rudder under the hull...
How do you expect the "modern hull shape would be taken in the account" if you imput only the general box gabarites?!?

[scrambled_words]

sailing is quite addictive ...i guess i'm not the only one

Is SSC27 built to last?

[Kristian Seascape]

please, consider this as very preliminary "first shot" data agains a well tried and optimized Esse/Melges numbers. I think it could be more realistic to use 1,093 as SRS12 number (other SRS numbers: 1.093/1.191/1.127/1.118)

[Kristian Seascape]

Is SSC27 built to last?

it could be done, but there is no fun for sailor if the boats are build to be last

[Murphness]

Is SSC27 built to last?

it could be done, but there is no fun for sailor if the boats are build to be last

I hope something was lost in translation here!

Anyways, the boat looks great. Get them to the States!

Cheers,

Murphness

[Dimi]

i was very reluctant in doing this calculation as it is just a rough estimate which should give you some ballpark. Too many things influence the rating and you don't take them into account. Batteries and engine is one example as they can add another 60-100kg, geometry of the sails, sail surface distribution, even the apendices. Like transom hung rudders are penalized as the virtually extend the LOA while Esse850 has actualy longer WL with rudder under the hull...
How do you expect the "modern hull shape would be taken in the account" if you imput only the general box gabarites?!?

You got me wrong, I meant that the hull shape is NOT taken into account with the SRS-rating and therefore the SSC with its modern hullshape would have an advantage.
Regarding weight the rules define that the engine and the batteries as well as cushions and any fixed equipment has to be included.
If you are interested in an english translation see the attached rules:

Attached Files

•  SRS_Mesures_Procedures_2012 (1).pdf   864.01K   17 downloads

[Overserved]

Is SSC27 built to last?

it could be done, but there is no fun for sailor if the boats are build to be last

I hope something was lost in translation here!

Anyways, the boat looks great. Get them to the States!

Cheers,

Murphness

There is one coming to the South.

[Murphness]

Is SSC27 built to last?

it could be done, but there is no fun for sailor if the boats are build to be last

I hope something was lost in translation here!

Anyways, the boat looks great. Get them to the States!

Cheers,

Murphness

There is one coming to the South.

Through a Euro dealer?

[scrambled_words]

i was very reluctant in doing this calculation as it is just a rough estimate which should give you some ballpark. Too many things influence the rating and you don't take them into account. Batteries and engine is one example as they can add another 60-100kg, geometry of the sails, sail surface distribution, even the apendices. Like transom hung rudders are penalized as the virtually extend the LOA while Esse850 has actualy longer WL with rudder under the hull...
How do you expect the "modern hull shape would be taken in the account" if you imput only the general box gabarites?!?

You got me wrong, I meant that the hull shape is NOT taken into account with the SRS-rating and therefore the SSC with its modern hullshape would have an advantage.
Regarding weight the rules define that the engine and the batteries as well as cushions and any fixed equipment has to be included.
If you are interested in an english translation see the attached rules:

oh, what a shame to be lost upon a list of heartbreaking rule lest the SSC become first at last

[Kristian Seascape]

I think is more realistic to use 1,093 as SRS12 number (other SRS numbers: 1.093/1.191/1.127/1.118)
I tried to fiddle a bit with numbers and there is some room for optimization of sail geometry. For those who want to play more, here are the input data.

 srs data.pdf   97.78K   44 downloads

[Dimi]

Thank you Kristian!

[Andraz Seascape18]

Yes trough Euro dealer this one.
And to clarify - keep in mind that modern hull shape of 27 makes her seaworthy and extremely fun in medium and strong wind (she is catB which means up to 40kt and 4m waves) while she should be still fun in light you have predominately on inland lakes. Also she is a compromise between VMG and VMC boat able to maintain 12-14kt hourly averages without much sweat but still point reasonably well in ww/lw races. We are currently putting a lot of effort in understanding various trim and sail changes needed to fit the extreme ends of her use. For instance out of 20 currently sold, some will race doublehanded offshore races in Norway, while some will compete on fully crewed ww/lw on Bodensee. You cannot find two formats more different than this.

That perfectly illustrates the philosophy behind her - she is versatile and trailable so hopefully she will motivate our owners to explore different branches of sailing. And at the end of the race you can go cruising with her.

This is not so much a sales pitch than an effort so that you can put things in perspective - Melges and Esse are great boats, well optimized for catC racing and nothing else. If we'll be able to compete with them on their turf then I will be more than happy since they wouldn't even survive competing against us on our

[alsi]

Yes trough Euro dealer this one.
And to clarify - keep in mind that modern hull shape of 27 makes her seaworthy and extremely fun in medium and strong wind (she is catB which means up to 40kt and 4m waves) while she should be still fun in light you have predominately on inland lakes. Also she is a compromise between VMG and VMC boat able to maintain 12-14kt hourly averages without much sweat but still point reasonably well in ww/lw races. We are currently putting a lot of effort in understanding various trim and sail changes needed to fit the extreme ends of her use. For instance out of 20 currently sold, some will race doublehanded offshore races in Norway, while some will compete on fully crewed ww/lw on Bodensee. You cannot find two formats more different than this.

That perfectly illustrates the philosophy behind her - she is versatile and trailable so hopefully she will motivate our owners to explore different branches of sailing. And at the end of the race you can go cruising with her.

This is not so much a sales pitch than an effort so that you can put things in perspective - Melges and Esse are great boats, well optimized for catC racing and nothing else. If we'll be able to compete with them on their turf then I will be more than happy since they wouldn't even survive competing against us on our

You can not say it better !


I liken to a sense for the theoretical performance of a boat to get.
Although the SSC are strikes as a bomb, the first 2-3 year they will start mainly in mixed fields. One of the most important rules when racing is "free wind". So it makes sense, to have one of the fastest boats in the Startgroup.
I see the border from ORC1 at a GPH of 620/625. With the same key data as the SSC, the Esse is therefore a good comparison.
But an ORC measurement certificate would of course be far more significant than all the comparisons.

Man should not forget, however, a boat is not sailing as fast as it can!
A boat is always sailing as fast as it is sailed!

The needs of different areas to combine is certainly a challenge.
I would not make a class rule depending from the area or from a rating system.
I would devise maximum speed by a TWS from 8-max.15 kn.
Who is able to design so a boat that will also solve this problem.

[scrambled_words]

Yes trough Euro dealer this one.
And to clarify - keep in mind that modern hull shape of 27 makes her seaworthy and extremely fun in medium and strong wind (she is catB which means up to 40kt and 4m waves) while she should be still fun in light you have predominately on inland lakes. Also she is a compromise between VMG and VMC boat able to maintain 12-14kt hourly averages without much sweat but still point reasonably well in ww/lw races. We are currently putting a lot of effort in understanding various trim and sail changes needed to fit the extreme ends of her use. For instance out of 20 currently sold, some will race doublehanded offshore races in Norway, while some will compete on fully crewed ww/lw on Bodensee. You cannot find two formats more different than this.

That perfectly illustrates the philosophy behind her - she is versatile and trailable so hopefully she will motivate our owners to explore different branches of sailing. And at the end of the race you can go cruising with her.

This is not so much a sales pitch than an effort so that you can put things in perspective - Melges and Esse are great boats, well optimized for catC racing and nothing else. If we'll be able to compete with them on their turf then I will be more than happy since they wouldn't even survive competing against us on our

Yeah right, but why no one compares SSC27 to a mini? Would you race this boat across Atlantic like you did with mini 6.5?

[Great Red Shark]

Man, trying to read this stuff is headache inducing. It's like Shaggy is translating Da Woody posts.

[Kristian Seascape]

Yeah right, but why no one compares SSC27 to a mini? Would you race this boat across Atlantic like you did with mini 6.5?

but we do compare it to a mini as they are well known reference for Sam and us. During the design phase Sam claimed it will be faster than a mini for 10-15% but honestly I thought "oh, mini is so fast, clearly 27 can't compete...". Now the boat proved to as fast as predicted and sometimes even better - she is stable and much more easy to control than a mini. I am attaching our polars from 2007 Minitransat to talk about some serious data. These are very accurate "routing" polars, which indicate realistic average speeds you can keep for let's say 24 hrs. Keeping 10-12 kts average on a mini meant a hell of a ride with top speed reaching the end of teens...

Mind though, she is not designed as a category A and while it would be a tremendous fun racing it acros the pond, we do not plan that.

Attached Files

•  Tabela_jadra_2007_final.pdf   11.44K   60 downloads

[alsi]

Man, trying to read this stuff is headache inducing. It's like Shaggy is translating Da Woody posts.

Is my English really sooo fucked up? (please do not reply, I think I know the answer)

[girl-gone-wild]

Can the SSC27 be equipped by shipyard with the following positions?

• Under deck furler endless for the jip
• Single line reefing system for reef 1 and 2 (retrofitted with a carbon fiber mast is not necessarily recommended.)
• lift system with anchorage points in the boot (ideal for a berth ashore)
• underwater escape hatch for docking for a submarine

underwater docking for a nuclear submarine? surely is practical for discreet plutonium fuel trafficking.

i have such misfortune..caught on here on a 27 feet racing machine..with naughty crew who put me exactly where they want me so badly..on a position no. one to six..a chick handy for all.. exposed to gusts of storm blowing.. have no idea exactly what view they get from cabin out to cockpit ..on an only chick among us

[alsi]

Can the SSC27 be equipped by shipyard with the following positions?

• Under deck furler endless for the jip
• Single line reefing system for reef 1 and 2 (retrofitted with a carbon fiber mast is not necessarily recommended.)
• lift system with anchorage points in the boot (ideal for a berth ashore)
• underwater escape hatch for docking for a submarine

underwater docking for a nuclear submarine? surely is practical for discreet plutonium fuel trafficking.

i have such misfortune..caught on here on a 27 feet racing machine..with naughty crew who put me exactly where they want me so badly..on a position no. one to six..a chick handy for all.. exposed to gusts of storm blowing.. have no idea exactly what view they get from cabin out to cockpit ..on an only chick among us

Lol! Read the posts before this, that should be a joke with the "underwater escape hatch for docking for a submarine" !

[LST]

underwater docking for a nuclear submarine? surely is practical for discreet plutonium fuel trafficking.

i have such misfortune..caught on here on a 27 feet racing machine..with naughty crew who put me exactly where they want me so badly..on a position no. one to six..a chick handy for all.. exposed to gusts of storm blowing.. have no idea exactly what view they get from cabin out to cockpit ..on an only chick among us
you've been taking drugs AGAIN

[Andraz Seascape18]

[Bonky]

Hi,

Nice video. I like really the design and the functionality of the interior. But calling a bucket and a however mounted camping stove a “kitchen”, is quite nervy even in not a classical way .

OK, OK, somebody or at least me must think of something a bit more useable, like a module which can be easily mounted inside during a week cruise with the family and can be taken away for the race in the rest of the time. I can’t wait till Duesseldorf, to see the real thing and starting to make thoughts about a different solution. The sad thing with it is only that the total boat design and usability seemed to have stopped at 90% filled up with another 5% instead of hitting the complete 100%. But we will see, perhaps this is what it needs to have your very own ship .

[GybeSet®]

no good posting bullshit speeds from

• speedos that may or may not be calibrated
• GPS with tide going your way, or
• speeds from sailing fat in the groove ( ie not best VMG)

Polars are just as bad, mostly optimistic


Line UP next to a M24 or Longzte upwind and get back to us

[Andraz Seascape18]

Bonky, give me an alternative and I'll be happy to listen. This is not last minute improvisation but something coming from years of experience. This is not a 30ft cruiser that would accommodate proper galley. That said one of the guys visiting us in Oslo commented that he will install a proper gimbaling set with an oven you find on 40 footers in the place we use as sail locker.

Gybeset, fair enough since most of them are. For further reference you can note that I was working in sail development programme and polar/target acquisition so you can off course believe what you want but speeds coming from me are pretty accurate and with enough date to put them in context.
But what you suggest is bollocks as well. M24 and Longtze are high performance sportboats and have pretty small sweetspot so it makes huge difference who sails them. So I can line up doublehanded recreational crew on Seascape with same one on M24 or Longtze in 20 kt and there is no race because M24 and Longtze are unsailable. Or we challenge them on one of the 400M long races in Norway we will be attending next year and again I think it is not very healthy to do it on one of the two boats.
On the other hand racing fully crewed on ww/lw I wouldn't be at all surprised if they would currently beat us since we are comparing a boat that is fresh from the blocks with boats with perfect sails (at least M24) and detailed trimming guides. They are also much more VMG oriented than Seascape which is a crossover.
And why would you compare them with one-designs anyway? They race in their fleets and we in ours?

[GybeSet®]

just saying speeds are no reliable guide and mean nothing, its after the gun goes that means anything

400km huh, 2-up. Then your 'trial horse' may have to be a GP26

i like your boat, it's groovy

[Andraz Seascape18]

Speed is Ok if it is in a context. The longer the average the more reliable it is and having good calibrated instruments off course doesn't hurt in tidal areas. In Med good GPS is quite ok if you do several tacks or jibes on the way. You only have to guess the windspeed if you have Raymarine or similar crusing instruments.

Indeed as much as I would like to believe that we can build something that beats Pogo2 in shorthanded offshore, M24 in fully crewed ww/lw and still keeps most of the cruising features like swing keel, toilete and no backstay, I'm not stupid.
GP26 is not a bad comparison and I believe that if they will not use some good designers they will have problems with us. That said we don't completely suck in ww/lw so we are currently running a sail development program to help kick start the crews that will race on the lakes.

But in reaching angles she is a natural

[Steam Flyer]

Is that the electric panel just under the sill of the companionway? That does not seem like a good location, almost everybody getting in or out of the cabin will kick it.

FB- Doug

[jww]

Is that the electric panel just under the sill of the companionway? That does not seem like a good location, almost everybody getting in or out of the cabin will kick it.

FB- Doug

I noticed that also but thought they were instruments.I know the the two wettest areas on my boat are the bow and companionway.How do you keep anything directly under that area dry?Is there a clear cover over them that cannot be seen in the picture?

[Andraz Seascape18]

Perspective is a bit deceiving - there is quite some overhang over them.
And the buttons are watertight for added safety.
So far no problems with it regarding position and water. Touch screen monitor from Phillipi you see in the middle is not something to recommend though. Still to many bugs.

[jww]

Perspective is a bit deceiving - there is quite some overhang over them.
And the buttons are watertight for added safety.
So far no problems with it regarding position and water. Touch screen monitor from Phillipi you see in the middle is not something to recommend though. Still to many bugs.

Thanks for responding.I do see some overhang but you are right,it's deceiving.Looks like a very nice boat.Good luck with it.

[redboat]

Like the boat, like the vid,

Like the soundtrack to the vid.

What group performed it?????

[alan l]

john butler trio where have you been hiding !!!!!

[LST]

EYOTY Decision will be announced on january 19 .. bets anyone ?

[Overserved]

EYOTY Decision will be announced on january 19 .. bets anyone ?

You first!

[LST]

Well, i'm biased since i drool for the SSC... (and i sailed only the SSC just for a short time in light winds) but still the competition is stiff, B/One could be a winner, when the jury wants to promote an accessible OD, J70 is more expensive, but must be loads of fun, SSC is the most versatile, with maybe the best hull shape for the program IMO.

My bet:

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

now you ; ))

PS: I don't think there's a ranking, only a winner...

[Overserved]

Well, i'm biased since i drool for the SSC... (and i sailed only the SSC just for a short time in light winds) but still the competition is stiff, B/One could be a winner, when the jury wants to promote an accessible OD, J70 is more expensive, but must be loads of fun, SSC is the most versatile, with maybe the best hull shape for the program IMO.

My bet:

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

now you ; ))

PS: I don't think there's a ranking, only a winner...

I too have a bib for the SSC27 and actually have one coming. So you now know how I feel. I think overall total concept and design the 27 is great. I have sailed the J70 and think it is a great little boat and having a one design background i think the 70 fits a great niche for a lot of sailors, although a bit expensive, but better than a M20 and more versatile. But I also think the 70 will struggle in some handicap fleets.

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

What did you think of the 27 in light air?

[alsi]

Well, i'm biased since i drool for the SSC... (and i sailed only the SSC just for a short time in light winds) but still the competition is stiff, B/One could be a winner, when the jury wants to promote an accessible OD, J70 is more expensive, but must be loads of fun, SSC is the most versatile, with maybe the best hull shape for the program IMO.

My bet:

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

now you ; ))

PS: I don't think there's a ranking, only a winner...

I too have a bib for the SSC27 and actually have one coming. So you now know how I feel. I think overall total concept and design the 27 is great. I have sailed the J70 and think it is a great little boat and having a one design background i think the 70 fits a great niche for a lot of sailors, although a bit expensive, but better than a M20 and more versatile. But I also think the 70 will struggle in some handicap fleets.

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

What did you think of the 27 in light air?

Difficult.

The SSC 27 is really a special boat.
The original nominees have fitted better into this category.

At B/one and J70, I don´t see anything special.
But the J70 has won the US competition and Bavaria has a very large advertising budget.

[sam_crocker]

You should throw the West Coast Dart in the mix.

[hawaiifins]

You should throw the West Coast Dart in the mix.

West Coast makes choppers. Left Coast makes Darts. I'm fairly certain my wife and I did not just buy a chopper.

[alsi]

You should throw the West Coast Dart in the mix.

The categories for “Yacht of the Year 2013” are:

Family Cruiser:
Luxury Cruiser:
Performance Cruiser:
Multihulls:

Special Yacht:
Archambault A27
Bavaria B/One
Code Zero
Seascape 27
Vismara 50 Hybrid

Archambault has economic problems. Vismar and Code Zero could not compete due about technical problems.
Therefore, the J70 is nominated.

The Left Coast Dart would fit well in a comparison with the ELAN 210.
But as a special boat I do not see it.

[LeoV]

Archambault HAD financial problems, is fixed.

Go SSC for the Boty, I was once a contender, good for some free press

[Overserved]

You should throw the West Coast Dart in the mix.

The categories for “Yacht of the Year 2013” are:

Family Cruiser:
Luxury Cruiser:
Performance Cruiser:
Multihulls:

Special Yacht:
Archambault A27
Bavaria B/One
Code Zero
Seascape 27
Vismara 50 Hybrid

Archambault has economic problems. Vismar and Code Zero could not compete due about technical problems.
Therefore, the J70 is nominated.

The Left Coast Dart would fit well in a comparison with the ELAN 210.
But as a special boat I do not see it.

Left Coast is a nice little boat, well built and has some nice features like the touch LED lights and all wiring embedded in the hull. Does well in light air. I think it will have the same issues as the J70 in handicapped fleets in medium to heavy air. And I would not take either one to far off of the coast.

[LST]

Well, i'm biased since i drool for the SSC... (and i sailed only the SSC just for a short time in light winds) but still the competition is stiff, B/One could be a winner, when the jury wants to promote an accessible OD, J70 is more expensive, but must be loads of fun, SSC is the most versatile, with maybe the best hull shape for the program IMO.

My bet:

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

now you ; ))

PS: I don't think there's a ranking, only a winner...

I too have a bib for the SSC27 and actually have one coming. So you now know how I feel. I think overall total concept and design the 27 is great. I have sailed the J70 and think it is a great little boat and having a one design background i think the 70 fits a great niche for a lot of sailors, although a bit expensive, but better than a M20 and more versatile. But I also think the 70 will struggle in some handicap fleets.

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

What did you think of the 27 in light air?

Well, i'm biased since i drool for the SSC... (and i sailed only the SSC just for a short time in light winds) but still the competition is stiff, B/One could be a winner, when the jury wants to promote an accessible OD, J70 is more expensive, but must be loads of fun, SSC is the most versatile, with maybe the best hull shape for the program IMO.

My bet:

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

now you ; ))

PS: I don't think there's a ranking, only a winner...

I too have a bib for the SSC27 and actually have one coming. So you now know how I feel. I think overall total concept and design the 27 is great. I have sailed the J70 and think it is a great little boat and having a one design background i think the 70 fits a great niche for a lot of sailors, although a bit expensive, but better than a M20 and more versatile. But I also think the 70 will struggle in some handicap fleets.

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

What did you think of the 27 in light air?

Difficult to tell exactly.. The windspeed could not be measured. We had the feeling that TWS could be attained without too much effort upwind.. I was positively surprised how reactiv she felt. Inspite of the broad transom, no feeling of being glued to the water. Downwind thats when the fun starts ; ))
I'll tell you more when i have mine in the water.

[scrambled_words]

Well, i'm biased since i drool for the SSC... (and i sailed only the SSC just for a short time in light winds) but still the competition is stiff, B/One could be a winner, when the jury wants to promote an accessible OD, J70 is more expensive, but must be loads of fun, SSC is the most versatile, with maybe the best hull shape for the program IMO.

My bet:

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

now you ; ))

PS: I don't think there's a ranking, only a winner...

I too have a bib for the SSC27 and actually have one coming. So you now know how I feel. I think overall total concept and design the 27 is great. I have sailed the J70 and think it is a great little boat and having a one design background i think the 70 fits a great niche for a lot of sailors, although a bit expensive, but better than a M20 and more versatile. But I also think the 70 will struggle in some handicap fleets.

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

What did you think of the 27 in light air?

Well, i'm biased since i drool for the SSC... (and i sailed only the SSC just for a short time in light winds) but still the competition is stiff, B/One could be a winner, when the jury wants to promote an accessible OD, J70 is more expensive, but must be loads of fun, SSC is the most versatile, with maybe the best hull shape for the program IMO.

My bet:

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

now you ; ))

PS: I don't think there's a ranking, only a winner...

I too have a bib for the SSC27 and actually have one coming. So you now know how I feel. I think overall total concept and design the 27 is great. I have sailed the J70 and think it is a great little boat and having a one design background i think the 70 fits a great niche for a lot of sailors, although a bit expensive, but better than a M20 and more versatile. But I also think the 70 will struggle in some handicap fleets.

1. SSC27
2. J70
3. B/One

What did you think of the 27 in light air?

Difficult to tell exactly.. The windspeed could not be measured. We had the feeling that TWS could be attained without too much effort upwind.. I was positively surprised how reactiv she felt. Inspite of the broad transom, no feeling of being glued to the water. Downwind thats when the fun starts ; ))
I'll tell you more when i have mine in the water.

IMHO Seascape27 is Yacht of the Year 2012

[Philen]

IMHO Seascape27 is Yacht of the Year 2012

+1

[GybeSet®]

well yeah, if you put it up against those two (above)

they are small versions of 'yachts' from production sausage factories, made cheaply to maximise profit, striving for mediocrity thus mass market acceptance

[postpast]

Why weren't you at the T.O. Boatshow. It would have cost between 5-25 G's but you could have easily been the most interesting craft there.

[Still]

they are small versions of 'yachts' from production sausage factories, made cheaply to maximise profit, striving for mediocrity thus mass market acceptance

Absolutely right comrade. From each sailor according to his abilities, to each depending on his needs. Profit is evil. Market acceptance is bad.

Even worse is a dumbshit Antipodean asshole who cannot properly spell "maximize."

[alsi]

they are small versions of 'yachts' from production sausage factories, made cheaply to maximise profit, striving for mediocrity thus mass market acceptance

@GybeSet, most people do not understand, money where is left over from salary and with which they can pay sailing, is also profit.

Will you waive on this profit?
If not, why not? But why should others do so?

[jetfuel]

i attempted to bring one into the Toronto show but Seascape was not ready to provide a boat as they were sold out their production until next Sept at least.
They were not so eager to work out some sort of deal either. I guess they are too busy in Europe to bother with Canada or North America at this point.

[Ryley]

i attempted to bring one into the Toronto show but Seascape was not ready to provide a boat as they were sold out their production until next Sept at least.
They were not so eager to work out some sort of deal either. I guess they are too busy in Europe to bother with Canada or North America at this point.

Well you know how us North Americans are. if it's not a melges, viper, or jboat it's shite. not surprised Seascape wouldn't want to bother. <tonguefirmlyplantedincheek>