433 replies to this topic

[jackdaw]

Andraz,

What is the expected failure mode of of the rudder system if the foil hits a large floating object? Is it fused in some way? In your FB pic it all looks very solid, but does that mean the first point of failure is pulling the lower attachment bracket off the transom?

[Southern Cross]

I would think that there might be a burgeoning market in the USA for this type of boat.

In my neck of the woods, slip fees are through the roof. $300+/mo for a 25 footer. If your boat is older and depreciating enough as it is, in addition to maintenance costs, the added slip fee just kills it.

I know one guy who has a business scrapping and parting out boats. He scraps a couple of boats each week that were either abandoned or unpaid. I know another guy who makes trailers and his business is booming. Also, all the yards and storage areas I see are filling up with trailerable boats.

My current boat is on a trailer but needs a hoist. But my last boat had a shoal Draft and a center board. It took fives minutes to launch (we had mast up storage). Pulling the boat was very easy. San Diego, San Francisco, numerous lakes and Baja are all close by. A forty year old boat it had in inboard, slept four, 2 burner hot plate, fresh water tanks and sailed like a Cape Dory 30.

When I started looking around for something similar, to take the family on during vacation and to race on once in a while, something that was affordable, there didn't seem to be a whole lot around. The MacGreggor for what it's worth, seemed to hit this market right on the head.

Like someone else said, the Seascape checks off a lot of boxes for me.

[Andraz Seascape18]

First pricing - I strongly advise that you contact your dealer for the quote and not run the numbers over the forums. For instance Sail package can be anything from 6kEUR to 12kEUR depending on the number of sails and quality.

Jackdaw, the fuse is the blade itself. Hinges are overbuilt so we expect you will use one blade which will allow you to still use another. Furthermore if you still get some damage on the hull at the hinge attachment we have an aft crash box which keeps the water in the back of the boat. That said rudder blades are pretty strong themselves so we expect that the system to be as robust as the one of lets say Pogo2.

[jackdaw]

Jackdaw, the fuse is the blade itself. Hinges are overbuilt so we expect you will use one blade which will allow you to still use another. Furthermore if you still get some damage on the hull at the hinge attachment we have an aft crash box which keeps the water in the back of the boat. That said rudder blades are pretty strong themselves so we expect that the system to be as robust as the one of lets say Pogo2.

That make sense.. I guess my question was, is the failure mode of the rudders (which as dual are much more exposed) designed in? You mentioned Pogo.. At Structures the failure mode is fully understood; the inox stock bends to take the shock. Of the 700 rudders (in 350 boats) they have built, 6 have hit something that has causes serious damage, in all cases the stock bends and the blade is damaged. No water entered the boat and they returned to port under their own steerage.

Your system seems very strong. But if you hit something at speed something is going to break. The crash box is a great feature, because it takes the worst case scenerio out of play. But it would be nice known if having a spare black around will get you back on the water the next day, or if you've got fiberglass work in your immediate future.

[Great Red Shark]

I agree. You simply must know what IS going to happen when a rudder meets something serious at speed, because twin rudders just hit more than 2x stuff. Rudders not following the keel has its good and bad points and one of them is a higher propensity for a collecting stuff and there is some Hard Stuff out there.

Having a failure path like break-away tabs could save the day if it allowed the blade to kick up or sheer away without damaging the gudgeons or transom, and some destructive testing to find out ahead of time would be handy.

[Andraz Seascape18]

Just read behind myself and saw I skipped a bit. So fuse in our system is a blade. If you hit something we designed the system in way that you will lose the blade which will still allow you to keep other blade operational.
On the keel we have a release valve which is set on a pretty low value due to hinge/hydraulic ram geometry.
Otherwise the "fuse" philosophy is one of the first things you learn when you start offshore racing. On our 18 for example we use a vang strap that is designed to break before you would overload the boom tube which allows us to keep it really light (at 2kg).

[Philen]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.c...bed/WQDPbph28B8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Shouldn't you guys be working on the new homepage, instead of going out sailing on the weekend?  Just kidding!

Awesome vid!

[Overserved]

How's it going on Lake Garda?

[Philen]

From what I can see on the webcam (http://stickl.com/Webcam-1-111.htm) there's only little wind, if any. But it seems that the two boats were out earlier. I'l be heading to Malcesine on Saturday. Hope the weather improves ...

[LST]

Windfinder says 2-6 kts until thursday, lets hope for some more wind

 

post some pics ; )

[Andraz Seascape18]

So far up to 10kt of wind. Boats pretty even in this conditions (Saphire a bit higher upwind, SSC a bit faster downwind) but hard to say since the level of the crew varies wildly. I will be there from friday to monday so hope to see you.

[jackdaw]

A link recounting the SSC v Saphire sail on Lake Garda. Interesting reading. It's in Italian, so if you're not fluent opening up in Chrome might be a good idea.

 

http://amiciexplorer...eascape-27.html

[alsi]

A link recounting the SSC v Saphire sail on Lake Garda. Interesting reading. It's in Italian, so if you're not fluent opening up in Chrome might be a good idea.

 

http://amiciexplorer...eascape-27.html

 

Upwind 5° less than the Saphire? Is that really so?

 

Than have fun with a windward start in a great, mixed field.

Will feel like many 5.5 in leeward

[LeoV]

Cant be, or bad sailor on board...

[jackdaw]

Cant be, or bad sailor on board...

 

yea.... inhaulers not used? too much twist on the fathead? But I assumed that a seascape rep was on board.

[Overserved]

Speaking of inhaulers, does anyone know why they changed the set up of the inhaulers, looks like from pics the Dusseldorf that they are stationary and cannot close the angle anymore vs the set up on the prototype?

[Philen]

Speaking of inhaulers, does anyone know why they changed the set up of the inhaulers, looks like from pics the Dusseldorf that they are stationary and cannot close the angle anymore vs the set up on the prototype?

According to Andraz, who I talked to @ lake Garda last week, the adjustable inhaulers were making things too complicated even for experienced sailors (to many degrees of freedom, I guess) for efficient trim. In order to keep it simple, they decided on one optimal fixed setting for the inhaulers. There still are the adjustable jib lead rings behind the more forward inhaulers, which allow for excellent trim of the jib. I sailed the SSC 27 in different wind conditions last week and on a first glance didn't miss the adjustable inhaulers at all.

[jackdaw]

Speaking of inhaulers, does anyone know why they changed the set up of the inhaulers, looks like from pics the Dusseldorf that they are stationary and cannot close the angle anymore vs the set up on the prototype?

According to Andraz, who I talked to @ lake Garda last week, the adjustable inhaulers were making things too complicated even for experienced sailors (to many degrees of freedom, I guess) for efficient trim. In order to keep it simple, they decided on one optimal fixed setting for the inhaulers. There still are the adjustable jib lead rings behind the more forward inhaulers, which allow for excellent trim of the jib. I sailed the SSC 27 in different wind conditions last week and on a first glance didn't miss the adjustable inhaulers at all.

 

Philen,

 

We are just gazing at our navels here and wondering about the '5 degrees off' comment from the review. You commented that the the boat seems fine. Do you have an opinion on the point the blogger made vis a vis the Saphire going upwind?

[Philen]

OK, seeing that the Garda trials attract quite some interest here, I'll give you my five cents worth. I sailed the Saphire on sunday April 28th in the morning in about 8 to 11 kts of wind and later that afternoon the SSC 27 together with Andraz in a dying breeze of 6 to 1 kts. Andraz was kind enough to leave the SSC 27 in Malcesine for the following week (thanks Andraz!!!). So apart from doing a Seascape 18 training course at Stickl Sport camp I got the privilege to sail the SSC 27 three more times during last week in wind ranging from 4-5 kts up to about 15 kts. I'll just try to write down my thoughts and experiences and hopefully address some of the questions above. 

Mind you, I will hopefully get SSC 27 hull # 10 in a couple of months, so I'm not entirely unbiased....

 

Saphire: Contrary to what you would think at first glance from the website, this is a boat made for up and down racing (predominantly in light winds) on the central European lakes. She also is supposed to be a family cruiser and easy to slip. She sails very agile, heels quickly and has a fair amount of windward helm, therefore needs a hand on the tiller at all times (making singlehanded sailing without autopilot difficult). She points well upwind (when I sailed her the wind was shifty so I can't give you absolute angles). Somewhere above 13 kts of true wind heeling and tiller pressure are so high, that I would reef the mainsail. At steep heeling angles I found it difficult to find a comfortable position at the helm (footrest too close). The cockpit does not offer too much space, and I personally had a hard time changing sides in tacks because of the proximity of the tiller and the main sheet block. Even in light winds I cant't see her being sailed in a relaxed manner, which goes against the "family day sailer" characteristics. Hull shape, waterline and keel configuration emphasize here ability to point high.

 

As for the 5° against the SSC: The two boats were sailed against each other one on one during the previous week, but not in a standardized way (e.g. no changing of positions windward, leeward) and with differently skilled crews. In 1 Bft the Saphire was apparently able to point about 2 to 3° higher making better VMG than the SSC, in 3 Bft that was not necessarily so (according to Andraz). Downwind the SSC seems to have the advantage (hull shape!). This is not my own experience, but what I gathered from talking to Andraz, Michael Tobler ("father" of the Saphire) and the people from Stickl. Some of the journalists who sailed the boats obviously had only little experience with these types of boats and racing, so their assessments may have to be taken with a grain of salt. Probably, the reports coming from Yacht (German) and Voiles (French) magazines will be the most reliable in this regard. We'll see...

 

So, to the Seascape: I admit, after stepping off the Saphire on Sunday I was briefly insecure, about my choice of the SSC, since I will be sailing mostly in light winds on lake Zurich. After last weeks outings on the boat I am completely at peace with my choice, though.

Sunday's sail with Andraz: as I said, in dying winds. So we just talked a lot about the boat, unrolled the code 0 (which Andraz hates and which will not be part of the OD sails, but I think will be a nice addition to the wardrobe on light wind lakes) and cruised around a little. What struck me most was how well balanced the boat is on the tiller. you can let go of it on any course (this was also true later in stronger winds). This is due to the double rudder, but still there is enough pressure to "feel" the boat. Compared to the Saphire this was so much more easy and pleasant. The SSC also sails more upright up to about 8 kts true. The second big plus IMHO is the space you have in the cockpit and the possiblity to always find a comfortable position no matter how much heeling there was. This actually makes the SSC more suitable for leisurely daysailing with the family than the Saphire.

During the week we went out a few more times (apart from me, that was Tim, a sailing instructor from Stickl with some Mini 650 experience, who had never sailed the SSC before, and members of my family).  First, in 2 to 5 kts of light but fairly steady northwind. Using the code 0 we went at 45° AWA (90 to 95° TWA) and often easily at 4 kts boat speed (I don't recall the tacking angle and speeds when using the jib, but the Code 0 would be my choice in these conditions). Some other time in gusty and shifty 14 to 16 kts of wind. Upwind 7,5 to 7,8 kts, tacking angle about 80° but hard to tell. The boat would heel until the lee rail (?) was in the water but would be amazingly stable with only little, easily controllable weather helm. Downwind under the large genny: boat speeds of 12 kts again and again (could have been more with people who know the boat better than we did) an very easily recovered from round ups (due to steering mistakes). Slightly over powered as we were in these conditions the SSS was always very well controllable and felt extremely safe. In these conditions upwind performance could have been improved by putting in the 1st reef in the mainsail and be optimizing jib trim (we were just getting to know the boat). The boat was equipped with very nicely cut membrane sails by one sails, which reacted very well to any adjustments of the trim lines. So figuring out optimal settings for different conditions will be a nice but time consuming chore. 

All in all an extremely joyful experience. 

 

So back to the comparison: The Saphire will probably outperform the SSC one on one in light winds of 1 to 2 Bft upwind, perhaps also downwind (due to less wetted area). Around 3 Bft they are probably on par upwind. Downwind and at higher wind speeds I think the SSC will keep the upper hand (just a hunch, though). The SSC IMHO is the more versatile platform, especially if you also consider coastal racing and cruising. She's just a joy to sail!

 

Hope this didn't bore the f#Ç“ out of you guys...sorry 

[Great Red Shark]

Not at all.  Thank you for taking the time to share your impressions.  What did you think of the fit & finish of the two ?   How about the interiors &  Auxilliary power solutions ?

[Philen]

Not at all.  Thank you for taking the time to share your impressions.  What did you think of the fit & finish of the two ?   How about the interiors &  Auxilliary power solutions ?

both boats are well finished. hulls are vacuum infusion, therfore light. fittings are high quality: Andersen, Spinlock and Ronstan on the SSC, and I think Lewmar, Spinlock  and Harken on the Saphire (not 100% sure though). Inside the finish is a little less refined, just topcoat. I didn't see any major imperfections. However, the SSC was a pre production boat (first hull after the protoptype), about the saphire I don't know. The Saphire's interior comes along as straight out of the IKEA catalog with some colorful add ons (sink, stove etc), looks very pleasant. The upholstery in the saphire is a cool self drying material.

The SSC has a less flashy but very functional interior (all in all much more space inside, than the Saphire). According to Andraz very much effort went into finding good solutions for the inerior (that's wher Gigodesign came in). The removable bag system works very well and will add some color. The backrests look uncomfortable but are excellent. Cool LED lighting. I dind't spend too much time inside, though, last week, I was busy sailing in the cockpit ...

Power: The SSC had a Tohatsu 6 hp engine, which worked well and made the boat go about 4.5 kts in cruising mode, full throttle I think around 6.8 kts in flat water, but very loud then. The pivot thingy takes getting used to, but once you get the jist of it works very well. There are some minor issues of chafing of the motor's tiller on the rim of the cutout in the cockpit floor. If you will be motoring in larger waves the Tohatsu 9.8 hp is probably a better choice. It will still work fine within the shaft below the cockpit floor and has a remote cable throttle, an alternator and an elektro-starter. 

The Saphire has a very similar, slightly more easy and comfortable to use pivot system in a shaft below the cockpit. However, this works best with torqueedo elektro motors. I think only a 2 to 3 hp outboard would fit there. If you want a stronger 4 stroke motor it will have to go on the stern. The torqueedos are cool and almost silent, buit there is the issue of price, range and charging. The larger torqueedo runs on a large LiPo battery below the companionway, which can only be charged via a land line. This solution is very expensive (around 8000.- CHF) and a no-go if you're on a buoy. The smaller torqueedo has removable batterypacks to be charged at home, but of course a smaller range. I'd be afraid, that exactly when you need it most you'd be out of juice...

[Philen]

Have an update here regarding motors:

 

there is an other solution fro the SSC 27, which is a Saildrive 330 (by HL Schiffstechnik Kressbronn, Lake Constance, Germnany). It is based on a 4 Stroke Parson 15 hp engine modified to fit on a saildrive gearbox of a Yamaha Volvo Penta MB2/50S. It is very compact an relatively light. It fits in to the shaft below the cockpit. Weight is 55 kg (compared to 42 kg of the Tohatsu 9,8 hp, so about 130%). Plus you have the drag of the saildrive and a two blade folding prop. Advantages are of course no fiddling with the pivot mechanism of the outboard, easy starting, 10 Amp alternator, no flap in the hull bottom and therfore a completely dry boat, and more than enough h-power.

 

EDIT added link http://www.hl-schiff...hnik.de/69.html

[Philen]

for those interested in the handicap of the SSC 27. I've seen the ORC Club certificate for one of the first hulls
GPH is 619.1

[Overserved]

Where does that fit in against the Melges, Esse, any Beneteau 36.7, J 109 or 105 etc? 

[Philen]

Here are a few popular sportboats in Europe for comparison (smaller GPH sails faster, higher gets time bonus)

 

 

 

Blu 26 626.7

mOcean 24 628.8

Esse 750 630.2

Saphire 27 630.3

J 70 668.9

Platu 25 671.3

Ufo 22 676.0

Surprise 694.7

Dolphin 81 618.5

Esse 850 606.7

Longtze 604.7

Joker 601.8

[jackdaw]

Where does that fit in against the Melges, Esse, any Beneteau 36.7, J 109 or 105 etc? 

 

The 367 rates a GPH of 618.

 

But it will normally sail to that, or close. It's why the Farr-Firsts are so popular. The SSC27 will be a wizard when its blowing, but will get crushed when its light. Such is the life of handicapped sportboats. Does not mean that I do not want one, however!

 

BTW a Pogo 12.50 rates a GPH of 560. Same rules apply.

[alsi]

for those interested in the handicap of the SSC 27. I've seen the ORC Club certificate for one of the first hulls
GPH is 619.1

 

The GPH is only good for a direction.

For better comparisons you have to know the wind conditions of the preferred arear and the preferred races. (Up and down or long distance)
Then you compare the Triple Number for the predominant conditions.

 

For example, on Lake Constance I would compare with "weak" and "medium"

[Philen]

for those interested in the handicap of the SSC 27. I've seen the ORC Club certificate for one of the first hulls
GPH is 619.1

 

The GPH is only good for a direction.

For better comparisons you have to know the wind conditions of the preferred arear and the preferred races. (Up and down or long distance)
Then you compare the Triple Number for the predominant conditions.

 

For example, on Lake Constance I would compare with "weak" and "medium"

Sure, GPH just gives you a rough idea about performance. Wind conditions and the actually sailed courses may shift the advantage between boats sailing in ORC Club.

[Philen]

Plus, as in any race under a handicap rule, it depends on how well your actual handicap matches your actual performance that day for the given conditions, and if there is mismatch whether it is to your advantage or disadvantage. The true comparison is on the water not by the numbers!

[Philen]

For all it's worth. Here are the triple numbers for the SSC 27:

 

Offshore, coastal/long distance: low 0.9728;  medium 1.2183;  high 1.3744    

 

Inshore leeward/windward: low 0.7523; medium 0.9852; high 1.1205    

 

So how does that compare to the Esse 850, Saphire 27, Dolphin 81 etc.?

[Philen]

For anybody interested in comparing ORC certificates of different boats:

on http://www.orc.org

you can register and then search for any ORC certificate issued since 2012. then you can have them email you anything you found for free. If you are willing to shell out 90 Euros you can buy enough credits to have them send you a "speed guide" for the desired boat (containing mainly the polars in pdf and Excel format). I thought that's pretty cool.

[svein99]

The test comparison between the Saphire 27 and Seascape 27 is published in the current issue (13, 2013 of Yacht.de) of on page 68. Below is a Google translation of the summary posted on their web page. Could someone with access to the full article post a pdf version or a brief summary?

-----------------------

One is from Switzerland and is conceptually somewhere between sports and boat sailers. The other comes from Slovenia and represents a racer with a strong focus on longer strokes on the open sea. Despite basically very different orientations, the Sapphires are 27 and 27, however, the Seascape so similar that they are often mentioned in the same breath as direct competitors.

The YACHT has therefore brought together the two young guns on Lake Garda for an exclusive comparison test. In different conditions, the rivals show strengths and weaknesses in all areas. The conclusion from the test: there is not a clear winner, but a lot of pleasant surprises, such as new and fresh ideas can be implemented particularly adept.

[svein99]

There will be 2 Seascape 27's in this weeks Watski TwoStar Offshore race in Norway. For registered boats see http://www.seilmagas...deltagerliste=1

 

The event will have tracking of all the boats. Rain and 20-27KTS of rain is forecast so it will be no picknick!

[LST]

That will be interesting to watch, the skipper of the second boat is Andraz. I'd love to have some info on the sail configuration and speeds of both boats. 

 

Fair winds !

 

BTW. On last weeks Geneve-Rolle-Geneve the Saphire 27 of Tobler was competing and did quite well >http://www.ycg.ch/La...-Rolle_458.html

 

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