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Slippery Slope in Well Intended SI's


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#1 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:31 PM

reading through some SI's for a race this weekend

I noticed some wording that could be used by someone Not Following the Sprite and Intent of the wording

and getting a DSQ for someone who they could prove "Cheated" when the victim was 100% in compliance with the Sprite and Intent of the Rule

The Rule in the SI's



10 RADIO COMMUNICATION
Except in an emergency, a boat shall neither make radio transmissions while racing nor receive radio communications not available to all boats.
This restriction also applies to mobile devices.


Ok "You" know what they are talking about (in your mind) But What If

You are enjoying your Favorite Jazz station on your FM Stereo Radio and come in 1st place

and some other guy throws a Red Flag as he has No FM Band on his Radio


You Know there are some who would try anything to fack with someone finishing ahead of them

Does anyone think that could be misused by someone ????

what factors can be used to consider wither anything is or is not available to all boats when some boats may not have any power etc. ???

#2 I'moutahere

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:37 PM

The transmission is available to all boats. Available is the key word. If a boat does not have the equipment to receive it, or the radio fails - that's their problem.

Bigger issue could be using the phone to order pizza or a hooker or anything else before you finish.

edit.. or even sending or receiving private emails, but not browsing porn sites.

Hard to prove though.

#3 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 08:56 PM

The transmission is available to all boats. Available is the key word. If a boat does not have the equipment to receive it, or the radio fails - that's their problem.

Bigger issue could be using the phone to order pizza or a hooker or anything else before you finish.

edit.. or even sending or receiving private emails, but not browsing porn sites.

Hard to prove though.


I was also thinking about a cellphone = radio

anyone on the boat seen using a cellphone (checking messages?) is in violation

bummer to get tossed
because a first time nOOb on the rail answers or makes a call to say can't talk "I'M ON A BOAT" Posted Image

#4 I'moutahere

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:02 PM


The transmission is available to all boats. Available is the key word. If a boat does not have the equipment to receive it, or the radio fails - that's their problem.

Bigger issue could be using the phone to order pizza or a hooker or anything else before you finish.

edit.. or even sending or receiving private emails, but not browsing porn sites.

Hard to prove though.


I was also thinking about a cellphone = radio

anyone on the boat seen using a cellphone (checking messages?) is in violation

bummer to get tossed
because a first time nOOb on the rail answers or makes a call to say can't talk
"I'M ON A BOAT" Posted Image


You see, nobody can tell whether he is saying that, or getting tactical information from somebody on the shore. I know it happens but nearly impossible to prove (within protest time limits).

#5 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:12 PM



The transmission is available to all boats. Available is the key word. If a boat does not have the equipment to receive it, or the radio fails - that's their problem.

Bigger issue could be using the phone to order pizza or a hooker or anything else before you finish.

edit.. or even sending or receiving private emails, but not browsing porn sites.

Hard to prove though.


I was also thinking about a cellphone = radio

anyone on the boat seen using a cellphone (checking messages?) is in violation

bummer to get tossed
because a first time nOOb on the rail answers or makes a call to say can't talk
"I'M ON A BOAT" Posted Image


You see, nobody can tell whether he is saying that, or getting tactical information from somebody on the shore. I know it happens but nearly impossible to prove (within protest time limits).


So True and agreed

but in a short race around the cans unless we're talking 6yo kids - outside help would be more of a distraction than any help

Question:

Should a compedeter get a pic of someone on another boat using their cellphone and call a protest for violation of the rules:

Is that Chicken Ship depending on who & where on the boat they were using their phone ? + DSQ ???

what if the person using their phone

as a mobile device to take a Pic of someone else talking on their cellphone ..................?????????????????????

#6 I'moutahere

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:22 PM

It can (and does) happen in round the cans races. (edit .... much less so in dinghies) I've witnessed it as RO, but couldn't prove it. There are ways a RO can interfere with it though.

How does someone on a boat know that someone else on another boat is taking a pic with their phone, or reading a text message?

Hailing & displaying the flag may be enough to cause the offender to put the phone away.

#7 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:31 PM

It can (and does) happen in round the cans races. I've witnessed it as RO, but couldn't prove it. There are ways a RO can interfere with it though.

How does someone on a boat know that someone else on another boat is taking a pic with their phone, or reading a text message?

Hailing & displaying the flag may be enough to cause the offender to put the phone away.


I in No way disagree with you !!!!!!!!!

do you feel that any violation is grounds for DSQ = Rules are Rules after all


my intent in posting this is just to point out how important it is to properly write and read the SI's

You Never Know when someone will call you out on a Rule "to the letter of the law"

rather than to everyone else's "personal" understanding of what they thought it meant

#8 I'moutahere

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:41 PM


It can (and does) happen in round the cans races. I've witnessed it as RO, but couldn't prove it. There are ways a RO can interfere with it though.

How does someone on a boat know that someone else on another boat is taking a pic with their phone, or reading a text message?

Hailing & displaying the flag may be enough to cause the offender to put the phone away.


I in No way disagree with you !!!!!!!!!

do you feel that any violation is grounds for DSQ = Rules are Rules after all


my intent in posting this is just to point out how important it is to properly write and read the SI's

You Never Know when someone will call you out on a Rule "to the letter of the law"

rather than to everyone else's "personal" understanding of what they thought it meant


"my intent in posting this is just to point out how important it is to properly write and read the SI's"

It is very important that SI's are written properly and with thought, and not be open to different interpretations.

The rules apply as written - not to "everyone else's "personal" understanding of what they thought it meant" or the RC's perceived "intentions". It MUST be clear.

If you are seen using a mobile phone while racing, by at least 2 boats I would suggest you will be disqualified if protests are lodged in compliance with the rules.

I'm not sure if such a protest could be exonerated by 360 or 720 turns. Some SIs exclude protests by competitors on certain SIs.

#9 ojfd

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:50 PM

<snip>
my intent in posting this is just to point out how important it is to properly write and read the SI's


Just FYI, DA-WOODY,

That excerpt from SIs you've posted is EXACT copy of words used in RRS Appendix L - Sailing Instructions Guide.

#10 I'moutahere

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 09:55 PM


<snip>
my intent in posting this is just to point out how important it is to properly write and read the SI's


Just FYI, DA-WOODY,

That excerpt from SIs you've posted is EXACT copy of words used in RRS Appendix L - Sailing Instructions Guide.

Almost. Could be argument about emails being included in that SI. They are after all carried by radio signals.

Attached File  SI27.PNG   27.13K   1 downloads

#11 ojfd

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:17 PM

Almost. Could be argument about emails being included in that SI. They are after all carried by radio signals.


You're right JS, I stand corrected.
Many new devices have appeared / have become affordable since Appendix L was written.

#12 I'moutahere

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:19 PM


Almost. Could be argument about emails being included in that SI. They are after all carried by radio signals.


You're right JS, I stand corrected.
Many new devices have appeared / have become affordable since Appendix L was written.


Technology advances faster than the rules can be written.

I think the rule mentioned mobile phones because many people don't realise they are just radio transmitters & receivers.

#13 DA-WOODY

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:41 PM


<snip>
my intent in posting this is just to point out how important it is to properly write and read the SI's


Just FYI, DA-WOODY,

That excerpt from SIs you've posted is EXACT copy of words used in RRS Appendix L - Sailing Instructions Guide.


Um - No but very close ..eh

if the racing rules can be clarified to the better understanding of everyone through a few post on SA = It's a better world !!!!!

I would hate to catch someone talkin on a phone in a Pic that I may not have noticed

and cause a PV-Cheaters situation when no harm was intended yet "Someone Just Didn't Know"

there is a reason I don't take Pix at the After Race Parties or Post Pix until after the limit to file a protest

"I want Nothing to do with documenting for that side of racing"

#14 haz

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:49 PM

The way that SI is written you best just turn off all phones ... your phone could receive a text or voice mail alert and you'd be in technical violation of a rule even without looking at it.

#15 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:06 PM

Might get to the point where they have to make it legal to look up windfinder or get a text from weather routing buddy inshore.

Doing it now is probably pretty common and although illegal it's pretty hard to enforce.

#16 JimC

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 08:18 AM

Hard to think of a better device than a mobile for receiving prohibted outside assistance. Leave it ashore?
Easy for me to say of course as one wouldn't last 5mins in my canoe anyway.




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