Jump to content


VX. Deal killer for used Vipers


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 Tejano

Tejano

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 527 posts
  • Location:Deep in the Heart of Texas
  • Interests:Sailing, sailing, more sailing.

Posted 09 April 2012 - 06:42 PM

Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?

#2 Timbo

Timbo

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,067 posts
  • Location:So Cal
  • Interests:Life's Short...

    Sail Fast!

Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:14 PM

Just you.... boats come up in packs from time to time. Always have, and I do not believe it has anything at all to do with other boat options out there.

New VX's seem to cost quite a bit more than the majority of used Vipers, so I do not see it as a deal killer.

Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?



#3 LakeBoy

LakeBoy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,128 posts
  • Location:Too far from Anywhere

Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:15 PM

Its just you! (maybe you're trollin')

Just checked the SA Classified and didn't see a single Viper 640 listed.

Where are you "finding" all of the bodies that are supposedly piling up?

#4 Bulbhunter

Bulbhunter

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,361 posts
  • Interests:SA is DEAD

Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?


Can you race a VX OD in the Viper Fleets? Guessing not - so why would they be related?

#5 hotair

hotair

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 175 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:04 PM

Want a used Viper ?

Go here.

http://forum.viper64...x.php?board=5.0

#6 GybeSetŪ

GybeSetŪ

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,230 posts
  • Location:the 'River of Light', Tomorrow-morrow Land

Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:22 PM

Its just you! (maybe you're trollin')

Just checked the SA Classified and didn't see a single Viper 640 listed.

Where are you "finding" all of the bodies that are supposedly piling up?



He's a lying pimp employing some Nicole Scott 'Astro-turfing' to try and create a truth



#7 RockHead

RockHead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,852 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:38 PM

Perhaps he just got the boats mixed up in the title of the post? Posted Image Seriously though, isn't that an equally valid question? Used Viper. Deal Killer for VX. A used Viper costs less than a new VX, and you get an active racing calendar for your money, just about anywhere in North America. 40+ racing in Charleston in 2 weeks, 50+ expected for the North Americans in September in Marblehead. And oh, there is in fact a market for used Vipers. Heck, a NEW Viper is only about $5K more than a VX, not a big cost premium to have the ability to race one-design the day your new boat is delivered.

There are 3 Rondar Vipers listed as of today, and 6 of the 15 year old Performance Boats Vipers (and one of those is actually sold). 8 for sale is low single digits percentage of the entire population of Vipers, <5% turning over at the beginning of the sailing season. I don't see that as a big deal.

I personally think what you're seeing is that asking prices for the old Performance Boats Vipers may be rather on the inflated side at the moment. $20K for a 15 year old boat with used sails? When a new one with new sails, new running rigging, no gelcoat to epoxy bonding concerns, no leaking keelbox, no dings & scratches can be yours for <$35K? The old boats at these sorts of prices may not be a compelling enough value at those prices vs. a new or newer used Viper, particularly when a buyer factors in the cost of a new suit of sails at close to $5K. I would think that if those sellers were anxious to cash out of those boats, we'd see asking price adjustments in the next month or two, if they don't start moving.

#8 SailAR

SailAR

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 778 posts

Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:51 PM

Troll?

Is it just me, or do the used Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads while the VX is the new girl on the block?



#9 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,587 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:11 AM

This BS Original post needs to be consigned to the trash can. at the ministry of disinformation.


Used Vipers are too expensive because they hold their value. I have never been in a class where used boats are so sought after and values remain stubbornly high. For used raceboats to be selling for between 17% less than the price the owner paid to in many cases premiums ( a boat that actually appreciates in value!!!!) is virtually unheard of.

From my selfish perspective, it is not neccesarily helping the class, because I want to move a generation of sailors into less expensive used Vipers. As the guy who helps prospective owners find used boats, I WISH they would come down in price more like a Melges . The fact is the class is still growing and motivated sellers get their prices, so less motivated ones hold out for a fancy price. I saw several move very quickly this year when the sellers priced them to go. Jep's will go very quickly because its a great boat and he has priced it well. I will have folks fighting over that boat.

I had thought that as the total fleet grew in size, and the total pool of boats grew, and age of ownership expanded, we would see a greater number of boats for sale. But the class is still relatively young and the number of used boats for sale has not grown as fast as the fleet has grown. As we approach 200 boats, I am not seeing twice as many boats to sell as when there were 100 boats. I have a blast email list of people who want to be told about used boats. I am constantly whittling it down to get rid of tire kickers and only have serious prospects, but it keeps going up. When I ask them why dont they buy the remaining boats on classified? With some justification, they point out that they haven't depreciated as much as one would expect. Then they kick themselves when there are none for sale as we approach NAs.

I sincerely expect the supply of used Vipers to gradually improve as the size of the total fleet continues to expand. However the value of the used boats is not determined just by the age of boats, it also reflects the one design nature of a succesful class.
An SB3 cost more in 2007 than a new Viper but now sells for a fraction of the price because the class went pear shaped. I paid less for my Viper than I sold my J24, and I bet I could sell my Viper today and buy back 4 J24s of that vintage.

Mambo Out.

#10 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,325 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:17 AM

Dan, i cant believe you replied to this garbage.

VX owners dont support this nonsense, you shouldn't perpetuate it.


Perhaps he just got the boats mixed up in the title of the post? Posted Image Seriously though, isn't that an equally valid question? Used Viper. Deal Killer for VX. A used Viper costs less than a new VX, and you get an active racing calendar for your money, just about anywhere in North America. 40+ racing in Charleston in 2 weeks, 50+ expected for the North Americans in September in Marblehead. And oh, there is in fact a market for used Vipers. Heck, a NEW Viper is only about $5K more than a VX, not a big cost premium to have the ability to race one-design the day your new boat is delivered.

There are 3 Rondar Vipers listed as of today, and 6 of the 15 year old Performance Boats Vipers (and one of those is actually sold). 8 for sale is low single digits percentage of the entire population of Vipers, <5% turning over at the beginning of the sailing season. I don't see that as a big deal.

I personally think what you're seeing is that asking prices for the old Performance Boats Vipers may be rather on the inflated side at the moment. $20K for a 15 year old boat with used sails? When a new one with new sails, new running rigging, no gelcoat to epoxy bonding concerns, no leaking keelbox, no dings & scratches can be yours for <$35K? The old boats at these sorts of prices may not be a compelling enough value at those prices vs. a new or newer used Viper, particularly when a buyer factors in the cost of a new suit of sails at close to $5K. I would think that if those sellers were anxious to cash out of those boats, we'd see asking price adjustments in the next month or two, if they don't start moving.



#11 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,587 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:20 AM

Dan, i cant believe you replied to this garbage.

VX owners dont support this nonsense, you shouldn't perpetuate it.




Amen Brother.

#12 Mambo Kings

Mambo Kings

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,587 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA and Greenwich, CT

Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:17 PM

Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads



Yup the want ads (or at least the folks looking for that reasonably priced used Viper) continue to grow.


Unfortunately, there are only 9 Vipers advertized for sale nationwide.
1 of these is sold
6 are advertized for a HIGHER price than they cost when the boat was new (sigh)

To cap it all, I thought I had an addition to our local fleet for one reasonably priced used boat. We offered the full asking price but the existing owner decided "Nah. Im going to keep it" because he wants to do the NAs at Marblehead. :angry: .


I'm going to try and put together a "kick ass" new boat fleet deal and challenge Rondar to provide the Viper fleet with a fleet deal equivalent to their aggresive pricing on the K6 ahead of our NAs. They owe us ! Hopefully this will do two things:-
1. Get a price that tempts all those folks who keep calling me looking for a "nearly new" boat. There are only two used Rondar boats on the market anywhere in the country and only one that is a Mark III .
2. Create some movement on the prices of the older used boats, so we can have some more entry level pricing.

The simple fact is that we need more boats.......and the only way to create a bigger supply of used boats is to have a bigger pool of new boats. Because as we roll towards September folks will be looking to beg, buy, charter and steal boats.

Anyone interested in a fleet deal for Vipers.....PM me. I'm aiming for such a good deal that Rondar wont dare publish the price.

#13 GIBY

GIBY

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 331 posts
  • Location:London, Ontario, Canada

Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:37 PM

Just a side note here. I bought Viper #29 (built in 1997) back in October of 2010. While she was in her original form and required some work, all the upgrades are now complete and I now have a dry boat that I would argue is just as fast (and pretty) as any of the new boats on the line. I have enjoyed the time I've spent working on my boat and the compliments it gets at regattas only make it all that much better. People can't believe it's a very early Viper.

If anyone out there has any reservations of buying an old Bennett boat, please send me a message to talk about it. If you're in the area and want to go for a sail on my 'old' boat, I'd be happy to try to work something out. Our fleet in Ontario/Michigan is now up to 9 boats, and continues to grow.

My fellow owners/sailors in the Viper class are fantastic people. There is typically an organized 'chalk talk' after racing to share go fast tips and to help bring newbie's along (like me). In the beer tents everyone is friendly too.

This season I'm looking forward to racing in Charleston, Detroit, Toronto, Sarnia, Newport, and hopefully a few more (Rye, Ottawa, ...). Even getting a few local boats together for tuning day is something we've talked about.

I have no regrets about buying this boat and joining the Viper class. The boat has been EXACTLY what I was looking for:
- One Design
- Trailerable with a small V6 (One of the local owners can tow his boat with his honda civic hatch back)
- Ramp launchable
- Simple enough to take out my non sailing wife or beginner 12 year old nephew (raced HPDO with him and my brother)
- Sizeable class that has both large National and Regional regattas and fun smaller local events.
- Fast
Seems to check all those boxes. I can't see my boat listed on the 'for sale' forum any time soon!

Attached Files



#14 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,325 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:54 PM

Giby, youve done a fantastic job on that boat. It's rock solid and will be competitive for many years to come.

Id go so far as to say these "old" boats are better than the current ones from a longevity standpoint and if anything we will see some of these rondars skip on below bennetts as they get some years on them.

#15 RockHead

RockHead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,852 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:20 PM

Giby's boat is gorgeous. And there is no doubt that ANY Viper is capable of winning ANY race. In the Pan Am series last year, there were something like 29 different race winners over 46 races in 4 regattas (paraphrasing, don't have time to look it up right now). The oldest boat actively racing (#18) regularly wins races. The newest boat that has ever raced (#178) won the final race of Bacardi with a brand new owner steering. #179 & #180 will be joining the fun at Charleston.

Go ahead and PM Mambo Kings for a fleet package deal, he's a tough negotiator. What's the over/under MK? 8? 12? Make me work, I challenge you! Posted Image

Or PM me directly, someone here did just a few minutes ago. You won't be alone!

#16 LakeBoy

LakeBoy

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,128 posts
  • Location:Too far from Anywhere

Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:53 PM

Just out of curiousity, is the concensus on how the Performance Boats (Bennetts) compare to the Rondars?

Has Rondar started producing boats in the US? If so, are they building Vipers here?

Without pouring through the forums, what are the known issues with older boats, Rondars or Performance Boats?

Is there any market for the Alum. rigs and sails?

#17 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,325 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 10 April 2012 - 08:58 PM

They all have one common problem, sailing them will cause a phenomenon called "permagrin"

Theres medication, you order it online at www.jboats.com

#18 Soley

Soley

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,854 posts
  • Location:This side of the Atlantic
  • Interests:Take a guess. It ain't too hard.....

Posted 10 April 2012 - 09:03 PM

Lots of race data to back up that there is little difference between Rondar and Performance Boats that are well maintained.
Keel boxes leaking are an issue on older boats but that has now been figured out.
All the boats until the latest generation had leaky built in lockers, again lots of info on how to stop that.
There appears to be a market for the old rigs with the i550 crowd, sail, have em made into bags...

#19 RockHead

RockHead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,852 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:41 AM

They all have one common problem, sailing them will cause a phenomenon called "permagrin"

Theres medication, you order it online at www.jboats.com


There's the Ultra we all know and love!

#20 RockHead

RockHead

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,852 posts
  • Location:Marblehead, MA

Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

Lakeboy, yes, we're building boats in the USA. So far 20 Firefly dinghies, a few sample collegiate 420s and we're buried in large order of Tech dinghies. Impossible to convey in words and pictures how solid these boats are. All resin infused, foam cored, lightweight brick shithouses.

Viper tooling is built, but not arrived from the home office yet.

#21 ultraracer613um

ultraracer613um

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,325 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:54 AM

Don't spoil it


They all have one common problem, sailing them will cause a phenomenon called "permagrin"

Theres medication, you order it online at www.jboats.com


There's the Ultra we all know and love!



#22 Damaged Goods

Damaged Goods

    Anarchist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,614 posts
  • Location:1600 Penn Ave
  • Interests:Community organizing.

Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:16 AM

Who said Viprheads arent passionate?

#23 MR.CLEAN

MR.CLEAN

    Anarchist

  • Reporters
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 32,659 posts
  • Location:Everywhere you want to be
  • Interests:.

Posted 11 April 2012 - 01:52 AM


Vipers seem to be piling up in the want ads



Yup the want ads (or at least the folks looking for that reasonably priced used Viper) continue to grow.


Unfortunately, there are only 9 Vipers advertized for sale nationwide.
1 of these is sold
6 are advertized for a HIGHER price than they cost when the boat was new (sigh)

To cap it all, I thought I had an addition to our local fleet for one reasonably priced used boat. We offered the full asking price but the existing owner decided "Nah. Im going to keep it" because he wants to do the NAs at Marblehead. :angry: .


I'm going to try and put together a "kick ass" new boat fleet deal and challenge Rondar to provide the Viper fleet with a fleet deal equivalent to their aggresive pricing on the K6 ahead of our NAs. They owe us ! Hopefully this will do two things:-
1. Get a price that tempts all those folks who keep calling me looking for a "nearly new" boat. There are only two used Rondar boats on the market anywhere in the country and only one that is a Mark III .
2. Create some movement on the prices of the older used boats, so we can have some more entry level pricing.

The simple fact is that we need more boats.......and the only way to create a bigger supply of used boats is to have a bigger pool of new boats. Because as we roll towards September folks will be looking to beg, buy, charter and steal boats.

Anyone interested in a fleet deal for Vipers.....PM me. I'm aiming for such a good deal that Rondar wont dare publish the price.

FWIW, once you get in the 500+ range, prices stabilize really damned well. When the Russians were buying M24s a few years ago to ship to Odessa (yep, they have a 1D fleet), I helped them buy four early hulls for around $25k. Each seller had paid 25k or less for their boat, sometimes a decade before. Try that with a sportscar!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users