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#1 Last Jack

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.

#2 JBSF

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:27 PM

If there are any flippers out there, please send me your contact details. I'd like come meet you for drinks and then pistol whip you until you cry like a little girl. Thanks for nothing, douchebags!

#3 Last Jack

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:30 PM

If there are any flippers out there, please send me your contact details. I'd like come meet you for drinks and then pistol whip you until you cry like a little girl. Thanks for nothing, douchebags!

Your ignorance is a beacon.

#4 Bulbhunter

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:32 PM

LOL - RE flippers are not viewed as being good people or doing anyone a favor when it comes to keeping housing affordable. LOL

The safe term now is called investor given one could assume many things when told your an RE Investor. A flipper is someone who games the loan business for low to zero cost short term access to a property, toss on some cheap paint - use unlicensed labor for some superficial fixes then turn around and sell a shitty property with issues hidden for more than its market value.

#5 Sox Da Puppet

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:41 PM

If there are any flippers out there, please send me your contact details. I'd like come meet you for drinks and then pistol whip you until you cry like a little girl. Thanks for nothing, douchebags!


You have a problem because?

#6 Last Jack

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:45 PM

What you say U20, sounds a lot easier and much more profitable than what I do. How can I get into that? Do you know this first hand or is this yet another uninformed perception of something that you don't really know about? I'm asking this legitimately, not being a smart ass.

Let me give you some insight, I use my own money and if I have to borrow any it's from private sources, short term and not cheap. The convenience is worth the added cost. I use licensed, skilled labor with all permits and inspections (to not do so is foolish and a great way to immediately stop any growth or profitability of my business). When I'm done a quality home is in the place where once a blight on the neighborhood was and it is occupied, often times by families as opposed to standing vacant and deteriorating.

It is not me or any of the investors that I know who created the real estate market that we are all dealing with. You can start with Chris Dodd, Barney Frank and FNMA then work your way down to all the people who took advantage of the foolish conditions created 10-15 years ago. But now that we are here, there is opportunity for investment...not speculation like what you used to watch on HGTV.

#7 Bulbhunter

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:54 PM

First hint this is a sailing forum. Second hint I live and own property in the Bay Area where property values far far exceed the less desired locals in the US. Flipping and flippers only work where property is cheap to start with. And yes I know a thing or two about the flippers given I've bought and sold 4 properties since 2010.

The basics of it its pure numbers and from a pure numbers stand point the stock market has a far far better return. Property flipping is for people who have trouble with the numbers game and watch too much HGTV.

#8 Last Jack

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:03 PM

The basics of it its pure numbers and from a pure numbers stand point the stock market has a far far better return.


This is completely false. I could NEVER make the money that I make in real estate in the stock market. Not unless I worked for a bank and collected fees for transactions. Not possible solely from stock market performance.

Anyway this is not the discussion I was seeking. Not interested in convincing you or anybody else to believe something they don't. Anyone like minded about real estate, send me a pm.

#9 Sox Da Puppet

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:24 PM

I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.


Depends on your location. We were getting the "itchy trigger finger" as there are a few "depressed properties" around our area that would make a great rental property after a little TLC. We put a $350K "as is close in 15 days" offer on one that was listed at $390K which was about $25K below market. They countered with a full price "as is close in 15 days" - we walked. This was six months ago. Weekend before last they had an open house and they have dropped the price to $375K. We are thinking of coming back and making another offer, but my agent who is also a good friend is telling me to sit tight for another couple of months as he sees the prices are still dropping.

We did go bottom feeding a while back for some repos but glad we didn't peruse it.. One property that I was very interested in went at auction for $500K and is probably worth about $430-$450 right about now.

Again, this is my area, others may be different.

#10 Sox Da Puppet

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:28 PM

Property flipping is for people who have trouble with the numbers game and watch too much HGTV.


The hell you say!

#11 mikewof

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 08:30 PM

Perhaps ...

I buy cheap, untrained porpoises, train them with my snorkeling gear until they learn a few aerial tricks, then sell them at slight profit to television productions and water wildlife parks, ideally ones that have wood paneled car-shaped motorboats in front.

Mildly profitable, but not for everyone, it requires an interest in problem-solving, and lovable, but slightly mischievous dolphins.

#12 DA-WOODY

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.


PM Mike Nelson he's the best



Theme to "Flipper" (The TV Series)

(Beginning of show)

They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
no-one you see, is smarter than he,
and we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder,
flying there-under, under the sea!


(End of Show)


Everyone loves the king of the sea,
ever so kind and gentle is he,
tricks he will do when children appear,
and how they laugh when he's near!

They call him Flipper, Flipper, faster than lightning,
no-one you see, is smarter than he,
and we know Flipper, lives in a world full of wonder,
flying there-under, under the sea!


#13 chinabald

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:11 PM

Perhaps ...

I buy cheap, untrained porpoises, train them with my snorkeling gear until they learn a few aerial tricks, then sell them at slight profit to television productions and water wildlife parks, ideally ones that have wood paneled car-shaped motorboats in front.

Mildly profitable, but not for everyone, it requires an interest in problem-solving, and lovable, but slightly mischievous dolphins.


Flipping flippers?

#14 DaveK

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 12:20 AM


I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.


Depends on your location. We were getting the "itchy trigger finger" as there are a few "depressed properties" around our area that would make a great rental property after a little TLC. We put a $350K "as is close in 15 days" offer on one that was listed at $390K which was about $25K below market. They countered with a full price "as is close in 15 days" - we walked. This was six months ago. Weekend before last they had an open house and they have dropped the price to $375K. We are thinking of coming back and making another offer, but my agent who is also a good friend is telling me to sit tight for another couple of months as he sees the prices are still dropping.

We did go bottom feeding a while back for some repos but glad we didn't peruse it.. One property that I was very interested in went at auction for $500K and is probably worth about $430-$450 right about now.

Again, this is my area, others may be different.


Where are you? That was a shitty offer from a seller perspective. You knew it was under market value to begin with. I had a shit head like you make an offer on a house yesterday and people will be people. It's a sellers market where I live. I refused with a only a full offer and zero buyers incentive. I got that full offer today but hasn't executed yet. Hope your agent is clear with his future thoughts. Maybe it is still falling. Maybe not. But trying to low ball someone beyond reason just makes you the slime ball. Yes, you will find that % of stupid people that may sell. Realtors can be scum too

#15 Mojo Risin

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 01:41 AM



I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.


Depends on your location. We were getting the "itchy trigger finger" as there are a few "depressed properties" around our area that would make a great rental property after a little TLC. We put a $350K "as is close in 15 days" offer on one that was listed at $390K which was about $25K below market. They countered with a full price "as is close in 15 days" - we walked. This was six months ago. Weekend before last they had an open house and they have dropped the price to $375K. We are thinking of coming back and making another offer, but my agent who is also a good friend is telling me to sit tight for another couple of months as he sees the prices are still dropping.

We did go bottom feeding a while back for some repos but glad we didn't peruse it.. One property that I was very interested in went at auction for $500K and is probably worth about $430-$450 right about now.

Again, this is my area, others may be different.


Where are you? That was a shitty offer from a seller perspective. You knew it was under market value to begin with. I had a shit head like you make an offer on a house yesterday and people will be people. It's a sellers market where I live. I refused with a only a full offer and zero buyers incentive. I got that full offer today but hasn't executed yet. Hope your agent is clear with his future thoughts. Maybe it is still falling. Maybe not. But trying to low ball someone beyond reason just makes you the slime ball. Yes, you will find that % of stupid people that may sell. Realtors can be scum too


I disagree Dave. Buyers have no duty to offer something a seller might consider reasonable. The seller can easily say no.

#16 mikewof

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:04 AM

Flipping flippers?


In the business we call ourselves Cetacean Resellers, but yes, some people do use that term.

#17 Jangles13

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 02:28 AM

I disagree Dave. Buyers have no duty to offer something a seller might consider reasonable. The seller can easily say no.


I'm with Mojo. I'm in the business, and have no qualms sending out low offers. Likewise, people will give me crap offers too. Last house I had on the market, the first offer came in at 50%, just 2 months into the listing. I just laughed to myself, and declined.

#18 Sox Da Puppet

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:27 AM



I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.


Depends on your location. We were getting the "itchy trigger finger" as there are a few "depressed properties" around our area that would make a great rental property after a little TLC. We put a $350K "as is close in 15 days" offer on one that was listed at $390K which was about $25K below market. They countered with a full price "as is close in 15 days" - we walked. This was six months ago. Weekend before last they had an open house and they have dropped the price to $375K. We are thinking of coming back and making another offer, but my agent who is also a good friend is telling me to sit tight for another couple of months as he sees the prices are still dropping.

We did go bottom feeding a while back for some repos but glad we didn't peruse it.. One property that I was very interested in went at auction for $500K and is probably worth about $430-$450 right about now.

Again, this is my area, others may be different.


Where are you? That was a shitty offer from a seller perspective. You knew it was under market value to begin with. I had a shit head like you make an offer on a house yesterday and people will be people. It's a sellers market where I live. I refused with a only a full offer and zero buyers incentive. I got that full offer today but hasn't executed yet. Hope your agent is clear with his future thoughts. Maybe it is still falling. Maybe not. But trying to low ball someone beyond reason just makes you the slime ball. Yes, you will find that % of stupid people that may sell. Realtors can be scum too


I buy and sell shit all day long.. I have developed a pretty good little side business doing this. I have a mantra that is you don't like the price I offer then don't sell it, its not personal - its business.

And in this case that was the issue, but here we are six months later and they are within $25K of my initial offer... Everyday a house, boat, car, plane, or anything like that sits is is costing the owner money. The smart ones understand this and would have come back with a less draconian counter offer... We did our homework before making the offer and had ascertained that they could have sold the property at this price and still walked away with money.

You may not like the way I do business and that is you prerogative. I have been told I have brass balls but never called a slim ball. Thanks I'll take that as a compliment.

Good luck on the sale of your house..

#19 sumpin

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 03:43 AM

can I get in on this..I have a couple extra dollars I borrowed

#20 Soley

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:04 PM

Making an offer of about 10% less than the asking price is perfectly acceptable. If he had offered 360k and they snapped it up you would feel a little foolish for not offering less.

#21 billy backstay

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:44 PM

Flippers are like beef farmers. They buy newborn calfs, then fatten them and sell them on, and pay taxes on their profits and then they start all over again.

I prefer the dairy farmer who milks the same cows every day until the end of his life. You can leverage up safely by doing 1031 tax free exchanges. A friend went from 7 to 16, one bedroom condos with tax free exchanges. When he is 65 and the notes are retired, he will have a decent income for life; mostly financed by the tenants monthly rental payments retiring the mortgages.

#22 sumpin

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:12 PM

ponzi

#23 DaveK

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 11:14 PM




I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.


Depends on your location. We were getting the "itchy trigger finger" as there are a few "depressed properties" around our area that would make a great rental property after a little TLC. We put a $350K "as is close in 15 days" offer on one that was listed at $390K which was about $25K below market. They countered with a full price "as is close in 15 days" - we walked. This was six months ago. Weekend before last they had an open house and they have dropped the price to $375K. We are thinking of coming back and making another offer, but my agent who is also a good friend is telling me to sit tight for another couple of months as he sees the prices are still dropping.

We did go bottom feeding a while back for some repos but glad we didn't peruse it.. One property that I was very interested in went at auction for $500K and is probably worth about $430-$450 right about now.

Again, this is my area, others may be different.


Where are you? That was a shitty offer from a seller perspective. You knew it was under market value to begin with. I had a shit head like you make an offer on a house yesterday and people will be people. It's a sellers market where I live. I refused with a only a full offer and zero buyers incentive. I got that full offer today but hasn't executed yet. Hope your agent is clear with his future thoughts. Maybe it is still falling. Maybe not. But trying to low ball someone beyond reason just makes you the slime ball. Yes, you will find that % of stupid people that may sell. Realtors can be scum too


I buy and sell shit all day long.. I have developed a pretty good little side business doing this. I have a mantra that is you don't like the price I offer then don't sell it, its not personal - its business.

And in this case that was the issue, but here we are six months later and they are within $25K of my initial offer... Everyday a house, boat, car, plane, or anything like that sits is is costing the owner money. The smart ones understand this and would have come back with a less draconian counter offer... We did our homework before making the offer and had ascertained that they could have sold the property at this price and still walked away with money.

You may not like the way I do business and that is you prerogative. I have been told I have brass balls but never called a slim ball. Thanks I'll take that as a compliment.

Good luck on the sale of your house..


Really? Just curious how you ascertained that? And Mr Balls, you never told me what area you are in? Over 300k here is sketchy. They tend to sit for awhile. I'm all for freedom of market but when you low ball it to death, it doesn't play well in your favor. You get a black ball for the day and the future considerations.

#24 chinabald

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:19 AM


Flipping flippers?


In the business we call ourselves Cetacean Resellers, but yes, some people do use that term.


Are you a certified bottlenose reseller?

#25 Sox Da Puppet

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:59 AM





I'd be interested in talking/sharing experiences with anybody making their living investing in real estate. Looking for opinions about short sales, rehabs, rentals and where you think we're headed from here. Are we really out of the woods yet? I'm finding limited discussion potential locally as most seem unable to stop competing and network within the same market.


Depends on your location. We were getting the "itchy trigger finger" as there are a few "depressed properties" around our area that would make a great rental property after a little TLC. We put a $350K "as is close in 15 days" offer on one that was listed at $390K which was about $25K below market. They countered with a full price "as is close in 15 days" - we walked. This was six months ago. Weekend before last they had an open house and they have dropped the price to $375K. We are thinking of coming back and making another offer, but my agent who is also a good friend is telling me to sit tight for another couple of months as he sees the prices are still dropping.

We did go bottom feeding a while back for some repos but glad we didn't peruse it.. One property that I was very interested in went at auction for $500K and is probably worth about $430-$450 right about now.

Again, this is my area, others may be different.


Where are you? That was a shitty offer from a seller perspective. You knew it was under market value to begin with. I had a shit head like you make an offer on a house yesterday and people will be people. It's a sellers market where I live. I refused with a only a full offer and zero buyers incentive. I got that full offer today but hasn't executed yet. Hope your agent is clear with his future thoughts. Maybe it is still falling. Maybe not. But trying to low ball someone beyond reason just makes you the slime ball. Yes, you will find that % of stupid people that may sell. Realtors can be scum too


I buy and sell shit all day long.. I have developed a pretty good little side business doing this. I have a mantra that is you don't like the price I offer then don't sell it, its not personal - its business.

And in this case that was the issue, but here we are six months later and they are within $25K of my initial offer... Everyday a house, boat, car, plane, or anything like that sits is is costing the owner money. The smart ones understand this and would have come back with a less draconian counter offer... We did our homework before making the offer and had ascertained that they could have sold the property at this price and still walked away with money.

You may not like the way I do business and that is you prerogative. I have been told I have brass balls but never called a slim ball. Thanks I'll take that as a compliment.

Good luck on the sale of your house..


Really? Just curious how you ascertained that? And Mr Balls, you never told me what area you are in? Over 300k here is sketchy. They tend to sit for awhile. I'm all for freedom of market but when you low ball it to death, it doesn't play well in your favor. You get a black ball for the day and the future considerations.


Please tell me you don't need breadcrumbs to find your way home at night. OK I'll play.

First off the county tax records have this information. These are public records and many counties have this information available online. Doing a little homework and with some interpolation you can do some righteous siefering there Jethro Ė it is Jethro right? Also, have you ever looked at Zillow or any of the other real-estate sites? I don't give them credit for being accurate on their values, but there is a lot of other great information such as when last sold and selling price.

Like I said you may not like my approach and to be frank I really don't give a shit! Please put me on ignore as I will see this as my day getting better.

#26 Jangles13

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:00 AM

10% low isn't "low ball it to death" and if the house is still on the market at a reduced price, then by definition it has not met market value. It is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, as we all should know. Dave, I'm not trying to stir shit, as you seem like a decent enough guy, but I'm surprised to see you say your area is a "sellers market" since the entire nation is suffering from a housing price decline. Ultimately your responses come across with a defensive tone, as that from someone who is facing the fact that their property is not worth what they believe it to be. If you have a full price offer on the table, then congratulations, and count yourself fortunate. You must live in an isolated market and desirable area. Meanwhile, I've yet to participate in a real estate transaction where a property sold at list, and I've been on both sides numerous times in the past years. 10% under is relatively standard fare, frankly. To be 20-30% under assessment right now is not out of the question, particularly in homes that the owners are delinquent in maintenance and possibly facing default. Consider what the boat industry is facing right now, a prime example being the WC Dart auction. I don't believe anyone was being labeled a slime-ball during that ordeal.

#27 billy backstay

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:52 AM

Jangles... Dave is a REALTOR in the Austin TX area. I have been a broker in CT for 28 years. Yes, some properties will sell far below an appraised value, it's simple supply and demand. Your WC Dart example is a good one. If you MUST sell, you take whatever you can get. I just sold a ten year old dinosaur of a car GPS for 35 bucks. It cost 700 new, but was not worth more than a guy from craigslist would pay after six months advertising it.

OTOH, in residential sales, most sellers have emotional attachments to their HOME. So, bottom feeding low ballers are not held in very high regard in that case. One of the toughest things for an agent to do is convince the Seller that it is no longer their HOME, but merely another asset they need to liquidate to move on with their lives. After 20 years and raising a family there, it is often a difficult thing for them to grasp.

#28 Jangles13

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

Ha, I totally forgot that he was a realtor. In any event, I absolutely agree with the emotional issues with selling a home. Combined unfortunately with people having a misconception that their home automatically appreciates.

Fortunately for me, I purchase almost exclusively from banks; it's just a numbers game to them. A lot of waiting, and stacks of paperwork. Then it's all positive energy when selling to a first-time homeowner on the other end, and I fully expect to take below list. Perhaps that just a cultural difference based on region, we haggle over everything here. I don't have any experience with Texas real estate.

#29 Mojo Risin

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 02:06 PM

Ha, I totally forgot that he was a realtor. In any event, I absolutely agree with the emotional issues with selling a home. Combined unfortunately with people having a misconception that their home automatically appreciates.

Fortunately for me, I purchase almost exclusively from banks; it's just a numbers game to them. A lot of waiting, and stacks of paperwork. Then it's all positive energy when selling to a first-time homeowner on the other end, and I fully expect to take below list. Perhaps that just a cultural difference based on region, we haggle over everything here. I don't have any experience with Texas real estate.


We haggle over everything here as well - houses, cars, tvs, jewelry, etc.

The problem with real estate agents, and no offense to Dave, is that they never want to see prices fall. If prices fall, they lose money. If they're representing the buyer, they want to keep the price up because if they don't they lose money. You don't hear much about buyer's agents recommending a low offer. They always want you to believe that the house will sell quickly if you don't give the seller what they want.

I never use real estate agents when buying or selling. I find I can negotiate better and get a better deal without them. And, it's hugely beneficial not to get emotional about things. It's never "my home" if I'm selling, and if buying there is always another one around the corner.

#30 DaveK

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 12:29 AM

Iím not a realtor per se. I have sold a few houses lately but I still have my day job. That being said, Iím clear in understanding that Iím not an expert by a long shot. But Sox, you donít have facts and are interpolating. You might be right or wrong.. Iím very unattached to any property but a large part of what I have dealt with is that sellers obsession with their property and separating them from that is difficult. I could post lots of sells here in Austin. But my last listing went for 3k over, this one is at asking, my cto is buying a 319k house for rental property at 325k @ airport and manorÖÖ I was liked floored to hear that today. I donít mix my day job but that was unreal. Itís just like a light switch turned on here. Itís a sellers market here now. No bullshit

#31 soling2003

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 03:46 AM

Actually, it is getting that way here in Seattle too, but only in town and. Certain price ranges. The 300k to 500k are selling ight away at full or above asking prices. Everything else, not so much.. Of course the two rentals I have are not in Seattle proper and under 300k. ....for now.

#32 mikewof

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 06:29 AM

Current house ... liked it, gave seller nearly full asking price about moments after inspection reports came back. Yeah, bad business, but I get paranoid it won't last, afraid of getting beat out for difference in monthly mortgage of just a few bucks.

Guy moves in home across the street, lower price, but needed some work, and doesn't have the same mountain views. Semi-angry at me, "you beat me to that house by four hours!" We became friends, guy can drink with the best of 'em, we walk to the neighborhood bar. Pretty much every time we meet he tells me how I beat him by four hours, it gnaws at him. I know the feeling, I've been there plenty, that's why I offered what seller was asking.

Lesson learned ... investment properties should be haggled, bargained etc., but if you find one in which you want to live, it might be worth a few extra bucks per month to make sure it doesn't get taken from you.

Year earlier, sold sailboat on ebay, some poor schmuck called me on the phone, voice breaking, asking me to sell it to him instead of winning bidder. Sounded like he was going to cry, he wanted the boat, got beat out on auction, gives me long story, offers more money ... sorry man, life's a bitch, and I lost way too much on that sailboat to rip someone else as much as I was ripped off. Lesson learned ... boats sell slower than houses, but a good deal is a still a good deal, buy the fucker when you know and don't murder your dream over a few bucks.

#33 Nacradriver

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:36 PM

Actually, it is getting that way here in Seattle too, but only in town and. Certain price ranges. The 300k to 500k are selling ight away at full or above asking prices. Everything else, not so much.. Of course the two rentals I have are not in Seattle proper and under 300k. ....for now.


Queen Anne, Ballard, and the areas around it has always been hot... My sister in law in the real estate business up there and has done very well even if the bad times....

Year earlier, sold sailboat on ebay, some poor schmuck called me on the phone, voice breaking, asking me to sell it to him instead of winning bidder. Sounded like he was going to cry, he wanted the boat, got beat out on auction, gives me long story, offers more money ... sorry man, life's a bitch, and I lost way too much on that sailboat to rip someone else as much as I was ripped off. Lesson learned ... boats sell slower than houses, but a good deal is a still a good deal, buy the fucker when you know and don't murder your dream over a few bucks.


Made a guy an offer on his boat, very reasonable considering the market conditions and the condition of the boat as it was going to need some rehab to get it into racing shape.. Needless to say we didn't make a deal.. Found out he sold the boat for less than what I was offering few months later..




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