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Should people worry about a Mormon President


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#101 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:26 AM

theology/religion has proven itself in having no predictive value whatsoever.



How about this?

D&C sec 87

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain


Recorded by Joseph Smith 25 December 1832

Twenty-eight years later on December 20, 1860, South Carolina became the first state to declare its secession from the United States. The first shots of the Civil War were fired in Charleston by its Citadel cadets upon a civilian merchant ship Star of the West bringing supplies to the beleaguered Federal garrison at Fort Sumter January 9, 1861

Kinda Gutsy to put into such a specfic revelation into your official scriptures.

#102 Spatial Ed

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:37 AM


theology/religion has proven itself in having no predictive value whatsoever.



How about this?

D&C sec 87

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain


Recorded by Joseph Smith 25 December 1832

Twenty-eight years later on December 20, 1860, South Carolina became the first state to declare its secession from the United States. The first shots of the Civil War were fired in Charleston by its Citadel cadets upon a civilian merchant ship Star of the West bringing supplies to the beleaguered Federal garrison at Fort Sumter January 9, 1861

Kinda Gutsy to put into such a specfic revelation into your official scriptures.

Just as gutsy as putting into official scriptures the sacrament of plural marriage. Why do Mormons now shun the teachings/prophecy of Joseph Smith? Jack, is Warren Jeffs a better Mormon than you? He still follows Joseph Smith's prophecy.

#103 Mark K

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:39 AM

Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

evidence? dont bring that shit here!

and there are no black mormons cause they understand the importance of evidence.



Nah, I have to defend the Mormon church on that one. Their missions were all over Africa when I was there. Probably better than a million or so black Mormons by now. Jack will probably look that up. They were doing a bunch of little things the Catholics and Anglicans were missing. Crafty buggers.

#104 Bull Gator

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:47 AM


Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

evidence? dont bring that shit here!

and there are no black mormons cause they understand the importance of evidence.



Nah, I have to defend the Mormon church on that one. Their missions were all over Africa when I was there. Probably better than a million or so black Mormons by now. Jack will probably look that up. They were doing a bunch of little things the Catholics and Anglicans were missing. Crafty buggers.



How many black AMERICAN Mormons ?

#105 Spatial Ed

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:49 AM


Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

evidence? dont bring that shit here!

and there are no black mormons cause they understand the importance of evidence.



Nah, I have to defend the Mormon church on that one. Their missions were all over Africa when I was there. Probably better than a million or so black Mormons by now. Jack will probably look that up. They were doing a bunch of little things the Catholics and Anglicans were missing. Crafty buggers.

Once the Mormons dropped their racist theology of making those with the mark of Cain second class members, they found a whole new population of potential priesthood holders to entice. Until then, only a total moron man of color would join their cult.

#106 benwynn

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:52 AM


Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

In addition to its many other faults, theology/religion has proven itself in having no predictive value whatsoever. I believe Saint George has something to say about that:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o


That's one of his best bits.

#107 Mark K

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:04 AM



Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

evidence? dont bring that shit here!

and there are no black mormons cause they understand the importance of evidence.



Nah, I have to defend the Mormon church on that one. Their missions were all over Africa when I was there. Probably better than a million or so black Mormons by now. Jack will probably look that up. They were doing a bunch of little things the Catholics and Anglicans were missing. Crafty buggers.

Once the Mormons dropped their racist theology of making those with the mark of Cain second class members, they found a whole new population of potential priesthood holders to entice. Until then, only a total moron man of color would join their cult.


Well, the dynamics are different in America, and many of the Mormon are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West.

#108 Spatial Ed

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:12 AM



Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

In addition to its many other faults, theology/religion has proven itself in having no predictive value whatsoever. I believe Saint George has something to say about that:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o


That's one of his best bits.

He was posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.

#109 craigiri

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:51 AM

3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain


Jackie - you really can't be that stupid, can you?

It was pretty much known by the founders and folks from about 1800 on that the war between the North and South was going to be the end game.

But I guess dummies in upper NY State and VT didn't know that...th"ey didn't read...so when the Con Man verify said unto them what was common knowledge, they said "wowser!"......

Really...please please please tell you that you don't know the very basics of American History....

"almost all of the founding fathers, including George Washington,  not only predicted the Civil War but were not far off in guessing the time frame that it would take place and were equally accurate in defining some of the causes of the war"

"James Madison did predict civil war at some point over the issue."


Jackie - you really should quite down because you are truly giving mormonism a bad name here. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to quote a con man who said what everyone already knew.

#110 Jon Eisberg

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:02 AM

The Obamam campaign has set their initial strategy in place. Mitt is a threat to women's birth control....

The president’s chief strategist, David Axelrod, has gone further, quipping that the former Massachusetts governor “must watch ‘Mad Men’ and think it’s the evening news” while jabbing that Romney’s views are out of a time when “bosses could dictate on women’s health.”

Read more: http://www.politico....l#ixzz1rwWcMpNp

But is that true?


Could be just me, but I'd suggest that a candidate who has stated "we're gonna get rid of (Planned Parenthood)" might conceivably be considered a "threat to women's birth control"...

#111 SA's Sockpuppet Godess

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:17 AM

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#112 Spatial Ed

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:20 AM

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MJ could have saved a fortune on skin bleaching just talking to Jack for a few evenings.

#113 benwynn

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:28 AM

Statistically, Blacks have a lower life expectancy than Whites. Let too many of them in, and they'll fuck up the case for that "health in the navel" bullshit.

#114 jerseyguy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:29 AM

Well, the dynamics are different in America, and many of the Mormon are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West.


You know, morons. Gene Wilder to Cleavon Little, Blazing Saddles

#115 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:14 AM



3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain


Jackie - you really can't be that stupid, can you?

It was pretty much known by the founders and folks from about 1800 on that the war between the North and South was going to be the end game.

But I guess dummies in upper NY State and VT didn't know that...th"ey didn't read...so when the Con Man verify said unto them what was common knowledge, they said "wowser!"......

Really...please please please tell you that you don't know the very basics of American History....

"almost all of the founding fathers, including George Washington,  not only predicted the Civil War but were not far off in guessing the time frame that it would take place and were equally accurate in defining some of the causes of the war"

"James Madison did predict civil war at some point over the issue."


Jackie - you really should quite down because you are truly giving mormonism a bad name here. Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to quote a con man who said what everyone already knew.



Really? 28 years before it happened. And the correct location for it to start. Everyone knew that as well. No possibility that a peace would be reached or that The north would have a different president who would bend to the south and accepted secession.

Or maybe Georgia or North Carolina would secede first. The prophecy is better than your hindsight.

#116 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:47 AM


Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

evidence? dont bring that shit here!

and there are no black mormons cause they understand the importance of evidence.



Nah, I have to defend the Mormon church on that one. Their missions were all over Africa when I was there. Probably better than a million or so black Mormons by now. Jack will probably look that up. They were doing a bunch of little things the Catholics and Anglicans were missing. Crafty buggers.


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sure had a strange way of practicing Racism...

Anyone catch Gladys Knight on Dancing with the stars?






There have been Black Mormons since 1832; two years after the official founding of the Church in New York State in 1830. One of the first Seventies of the LDS Church was a Black Mormon by the name of Elijah Abel (1810-1884). Because of his great faith, he was ordained to the Priesthood and became a member of the Third Quorum of Seventy; a priesthood-office just under Apostle. He was a personal friend to the Prophet Joseph Smith, and helped to rescue him from mobs in Missouri bent upon taking his life. Elijah Abel's son Enoch and grandson Elijah were also ordained to various offices in the Priesthood. Elijah Abel died in Salt Lake City, Utah, at the age of 74; just after having served a mission for the Church in Canada and Cincinnati, Ohio.

Posted Image

Black Mormons

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John Brown accompanied Brigham Young on his entrance to the Salt Lake Valley in 1847. He was among the first Mormons to enter what is now the state of Utah. In 1848 he travelled back to his home state of Mississippi in order to lead the Mississippi Mormons (both black and white) to the Salt Lake Valley. In the spring of 1848 57 white and 37 black Mormons left Mississippi in 11 wagons. John Brown later said:

"Every man, woman and child, both white and black, gazed at us with astonishment as we passed their habitations." [i.e. both black and whites in Mississippi couldn't believe that a black man was leading 11 wagons of almost 100 souls~both black and whites together] (from Black Latter-day Saints Pioneers online)

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Samuel D. Chambers (1831-1929) was a Black Mormon from Mississippi who converted to the Church in 1844, and in 1870 he moved to Salt Lake City. He was one of the largest land-owners and wealthiest men in Salt Lake Valley.

#117 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:06 AM

The First African-American Police Detective

The very FIRST African-American police detective in the United States was Paul Cephas Howell, a black Mormon who moved from the South to Salt Lake City in 1874. Mormon Church President Wilford Woodruff arranged for his employment as a police officer with the Salt Lake City Police Department; a department overwhelmingly Mormon. Officer Howell became a Detective with that department in 1884; the first African-American police detective.

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#118 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:28 AM


Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

evidence? dont bring that shit here!

and there are no black mormons cause they understand the importance of evidence.



Nah, I have to defend the Mormon church on that one. Their missions were all over Africa when I was there. Probably better than a million or so black Mormons by now. Jack will probably look that up. They were doing a bunch of little things the Catholics and Anglicans were missing. Crafty buggers.


Even before there were missions.


In 1853, nine years after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith, missionaries were sent to Africa for the first time, but they only proselyted among the white people of South Africa. It was not until 125 years later, following the revelation on the priesthood in 1978, that the gospel was preached to all people of Africa.

However, 30 years before the revelation, Church leaders became aware of other Africans who were interested in the Church. By the 1950s, many letters were sent to Church headquarters from the West African nations of Nigeria and Ghana requesting literature and membership in the Church. The letters were written by devout Christians who had gained a testimony from the Book of Mormon or other Church literature.

What began as a comparative trickle of requests in the early 1950s became a flood by the 1960s. More letters requesting literature were received from Nigeria and Ghana than from all the rest of the world combined (from Edwin Q. Cannon, Jr., interview with Gordon Irving, 10 January 1980, Salt Lake City, Church Historical Department). The Church responded by sending literature, but the demand for Church literature was so great that some Africans even established LDS bookstores. However, since there were no priesthood holders to preside and provide priesthood ordinances, those asking for baptism were told, "The time is not yet. You must wait."

As they waited, they shared their knowledge and testimony of the gospel with others and organized congregations. It was reported that in the 1960s there were more than 60 congregations in Nigeria and Ghana, with more than 16,000 participants--none of whom were baptized (from interview with LaMar Williams by E. Dale LeBaron in Salt Lake City on 12 February 1988).1

This was a paradoxical situation for the Church. With an army of missionaries eager to go to the ends of the earth to teach and baptize, there were thousands in Africa pleading to join the Church whom we were not able to baptize. As far as is known, nothing like this had occurred in this or in any other dispensation.

In 1960 President David O. McKay assigned South Africa mission president Glen G. Fisher to be the first Church representative to visit some of these unbaptized converts. He met with several groups in Nigeria, one of which had more than 5,600 participants in many congregations. President Fisher told the First Presidency that he received a royal welcome; they had been preparing themselves and their congregations for baptism for years. Their continued plea was, "We want the true church" (in Glen G. Fisher: A Man to Match the Mountains, ed. E. Dale LeBaron [Edmonton: Fisher House, 1992], pp. 147–48). President Fisher was also impressed with their sincerity. Even though they were extremely poor, they never mentioned financial help.

The intensity of their pleadings continued to increase, as reflected in this letter to President David O. McKay from a pastor in Nigeria who had made previous requests for baptism. He wrote:

I have to say that my heart will not rest . . . until I achieve my objective to be a baptized member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, . . . and to be fully instructed in the gospel as restored [through the] Prophet, Joseph Smith . . . , in order to be able to preach the true gospel to my people and win for my Savior hearts that should otherwise perish in the darkness. [Letter of 29 July 1961, on file in the Church Historian's Library; also in Williams interview]

Such letters received President McKay's attention and concern not only because of their fervent plea but also because of their letterhead, which read, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Nigeria Branch." The prophet did not know that there were "branches" of the Church in Nigeria.

In 1961 President McKay assigned LaMar Williams, secretary to the Church Missionary Department, to go to Nigeria on a month-long fact-finding mission to determine if the people were sincere and willing to accept the Church without holding the priesthood (Williams interview, pp. 10–11). Although Brother Williams had been responding to the flood of letters from Africa, he was not prepared for what he found there. He was met at the airport in Lagos, Nigeria, by 10 pastors with whom he had been corresponding. He, too, was treated like royalty but was surprised to discover that not only did each pastor operate independently, they had not even been aware of each other (Williams interview, pp. 11–12).

The first official Church meeting in black Africa was held on October 22, 1961, in a small mud hut in Opobo District, Nigeria, where Brother Williams met with a pastor and 110 followers. No one came by car. Many, including eight mothers with small children, had begun their day before 4:00 a.m. and walked 25 miles or more to be there. After teaching them for two hours, Brother Williams prepared to end the meeting. He recorded:

It was hot as blazes. . . . My suit was wringing wet. . . . When I turned the meeting back to [the pastor], I heard a murmur all through the congregation . . . and [the pastor] said to me, "They don't want to go home. They have something to say."

Then for three hours . . . these people were standing up bearing testimony to the truthfulness of the Church and how they believed in the prophets. I could not believe what I was hearing. [Williams interview, pp. 10–12]

One elderly gentleman said:

I keep hearing you say, "if we are sincere." Elder Williams, I want you to know that I am sincere. I am an old man . . . I am sick. But when I heard you were going to be here, I walked 16 miles this morning to see you and to hear what you have to say. I still have to walk 16 miles to get back home, and I am not well. I want you to know that I am sincere or I would not be here. I have not seen President McKay. I have not seen God. But I have seen you. And I will hold you personally accountable to tell President McKay that I am sincere. [Letter on file]

Brother Williams reported to President McKay that he felt thousands were ready for baptism (Williams interview, pp. 25–27).

Three months later, President McKay called Brother and Sister Williams to preside over the first mission in black Africa, but the Nigerian government refused to issue the necessary visas. This was primarily due to media attacks against the Church because of its position in denying blacks the priesthood, and at this time civil rights was an explosive issue. After four years of intense effort, one day Brother Williams was at the embassy in Nigeria hoping to finally obtain the visas. While there he received a telegram from the First Presidency stating, "Discontinue negotiations in Nigeria and return home immediately." Shocked and confused, but obedient, he returned home (Williams interview, pp. 4, 22–24; also Williams journal, "Nigerian Mission," Church Historical Library, p. 64.4).

Upon his return to Salt Lake City in November 1965, President N. Eldon Tanner assured Brother Williams that the Church would yet go to Nigeria, and they would both live to see it (see Williams journal, p. 64.1). He further said, "We don't know why we called you back. We only know it was urgent. There is a reason, and we will know [what it is someday]" (Williams journal, p. 64.4; also in Williams interview, pp. 4, 22–24).

Within three weeks Africa's most devastating civil war, the Biafran War, exploded in Nigeria, with much of the fighting in the area where the unbaptized congregations of believers were located (see Encyclopedia of Africa South of the Sahara, John Middleton, editor in chief [New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1997], 4:357). Two ambassadors were killed on the steps of the embassy where Brother Williams received the telegram instructing him to return home. Brother and Sister Williams were released from their mission call, and in June 1966 LaMar Williams turned over 15,000 names and addresses of unbaptized African converts to Elders Spencer W. Kimball and Gordon B. Hinckley, both of whom were on the Church Missionary Committee (Williams interview, pp. 7, 20–21, 35).

It is important to note that the Church made every effort to establish itself in West Africa but was prevented from doing so. However, the Lord has promised that his eternal blessings will come "in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will" (D&C 88:68). The Lord's "own time" for black Africa came in June 1978. "His own way" was a revelation given to his prophet, President Spencer W. Kimball, making all gospel blessings available to all worthy members. The Lord's "own will" regarding the priesthood restriction and the removal of it has been stated by prophets, seers, and revelators.

In 1949 the First Presidency stated that the priesthood restriction was "not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord" (statement of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 17 August 1949; copy on file in Church Archives). Twenty years later, Presidents Hugh B. Brown and N. Eldon Tanner said:

From the beginning of this dispensation, Joseph Smith and all succeeding presidents of the Church have taught that [blacks] were not to receive the priesthood for reasons which we believe are known to God, but which He has not made fully known to man. [Statement of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 15 December 1969; copy on file in Church Archives]

President Spencer W. Kimball--whose clarion call during his ministry was to take the gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue and people--was particularly aware of many under priesthood restriction throughout the world, and he pleaded long and earnestly with the Lord in their behalf (see D&C Official Declaration--2). Also, in numerous temple meetings, President Kimball met with his counselors and the Twelve to discuss this issue. In such a meeting on June 1, 1978, President Kimball asked his Brethren to express their feelings regarding this matter. Elder David B. Haight recalled that as each one spoke, there was "an outpouring of the Spirit which bonded our souls together in perfect unity" (in Lucile C. Tate, David B. Haight: The Life Story of a Disciple [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1987], pp. 279–80). Then President Kimball suggested that they have prayer at the altar. President Gordon B. Hinckley recalled:

There was a hallowed and sanctified atmosphere in the room. For me, it felt as if a conduit opened between the heavenly throne and the kneeling, pleading prophet of God who was joined by his Brethren. . . .

Every man in that circle, by the power of the Holy Ghost, knew the same thing. . . .

. . . Not one of us . . . was ever quite the same after that. Nor has the Church been quite the same. . . .

Tremendous, eternal consequences for millions over the earth are flowing from that manifestation. . . .

. . . This has opened great areas of the world to the teaching of the everlasting gospel. . . .

We have cause to rejoice . . . that we have seen this glorious day. ["Speaking Today: Priesthood Restoration," Ensign, October 1988, pp. 70–71]

One tender moment of rejoicing was shared by David M. Kennedy, who had served for years as President Kimball's special ambassador in helping the Church enter new countries. Previous to the revelation, as they would study a large map of the world, Brother Kennedy would place one hand over the continent of Africa, saying, "We can't go there unless they have the priesthood." On June 8, 1978, a subdued President Kimball returned from the temple prior to announcing to the world the revelation that had been received. He stopped at Brother Kennedy's office, opened the door, and, with deep emotion, said, "David, now you can take your hand off Africa" (David M. Kennedy, lecture to Religious Education faculty, BYU, 2 October 1992; see also Martin Berkeley Hickman, David Matthew Kennedy: Banker, Statesman, Churchman [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1987], pp. 343–44).

How important was this revelation? It has been said that "the greatest events of history are those which affect the largest numbers for the longest periods" ("The First Presidency Easter Message," Church News, 26 March 1994, p. 1). By this criteria, when we consider those affected by this revelation--which includes millions on the earth and billions on the other side of the veil--we can see why President Kimball said that it brought "one of the greatest changes and blessings that has ever been known" (TSWK, p. 451). Floodgates were now open for the gospel to go to Africa and to African ancestors (see Bruce R. McConkie, "All Are Alike unto God," CES Symposium, BYU, 18 August 1978).

When this revelation was announced, my wife and I were presiding over the only mission on the continent of Africa. The announcement brought feelings and stirrings impossible to describe. As inspiring as it was, I felt a great concern because Africans do not traditionally keep written histories, and I felt their unique experiences needed to be preserved. The desire to help preserve that history was later realized. Since coming to BYU I have been blessed by the Lord and helped by others in obtaining oral histories from more than 600 African pioneers, from which I will now share some insights.

The unbaptized converts in Africa were guided and strengthened by the Lord according to their faith in him. The Lord used two types of disciples to help accomplish this.

First, the Lord guided many LDS expatriates from North America to Africa on professional assignments, many of whom provided much-needed support and encouragement for these pioneers. Elder Alexander B. Morrison of the First Quorum of the Seventy said in general conference:

In every corner of Africa, there are faithful expatriate members of the Church. . . .

I testify they are not there by chance. As part of God's great and grand design for growth, they have been placed on the frontiers of the Church by divine providence. . . . They are the right people at the right place and at the right time in history. ["The Dawning of a New Day in Africa," Ensign, November 1987, p. 26]

Two expatriates who were especially praised and remembered by the African pioneers in West Africa were Professor Virginia Cutler (former BYU dean of the College of Family Living) and President Merrill J. Bateman. President Bateman worked in West Africa for 15 years, then, following the revelation on the priesthood, the First Presidency assigned him to escort Brother Ted Cannon, counselor in the Church International Mission, to prepare the people of Nigeria and Ghana for the arrival of the first missionaries.

Second, the Lord raised up Eliases to prepare people for the gospel so the infant church could grow quickly and withstand Satan's fury. John the Baptist was the Elias who prepared people at the Savior's time. In this dispensation the Lord raised up various Eliases. For example, Sidney Rigdon, a Campbellite preacher in Ohio, prepared many for the gospel, including future counselors in the First Presidency, apostles, and presiding bishops. To Sidney Rigdon the Lord said, "Thou was sent forth, even as John, to prepare the way before me . . . , and thou knewest it not" (D&C 35:4). In black Africa, where the revelation on the priesthood was, in effect, the restoration of the gospel for them, a loving Heavenly Father raised up many Eliases. Let me share some examples.

The first missionaries sent to Africa were Rendell and Rachel Mabey and Ted and Janath Cannon. They arrived in Nigeria just five months after the revelation. Their first baptism was an Elias named Anthony Obinna, who had waited and pleaded for membership for 13 years. In 1965 he had a dream that he did not understand but that impressed him deeply. He said:

One night I was sleeping and a tall man came to me . . . and took me to one of the most beautiful buildings and showed me all the rooms. At the end he showed himself in the crucified form. Then in 1970 I found [a] Reader's Digest article titled "The March of the Mormons," with a picture of the Salt Lake Temple. It was exactly the same building that I had seen in my dreams. [Interview with Anthony Obinna in Mbaise, Nigeria, 4 June 1988]

Immediately Brother Obinna wrote to Church headquarters requesting literature and baptism. He received literature, organized a congregation, and continued writing letters requesting baptism. Finally, after years of pleading, he wrote directly to the Council of Twelve, saying, "Your long silence about the establishment of the Church in Nigeria is very embarrassing. . . . Did Christ not say, 'Go ye and teach all nations?'" (Obinna interview).

It is not often that the Brethren are chastised by a nonmember of the Church for not baptizing converts. However, when Brother Obinna learned that the revelation had been received, he wrote the following to President Kimball:

We are happy for the many hours in the upper room of the temple you spent supplicating the Lord to bring us into the fold. We thank our Heavenly Father for hearing your prayers and ours and by revelation [confirming] the long promised day . . . to receive every blessing of the gospel. [Letter on file]

On the day Brother Obinna was baptized, he was ordained to the priesthood and set apart as the first black African branch president, and Sister Obinna became the first Relief Society president. Soon after his baptism Brother Obinna prophesied, "The seed of the gospel will grow into a giant tree. The Church in Nigeria will surprise the world in its growth" (letter on file). And so it has.

Growth has been a continuing and major challenge to the Church in Africa. Limiting baptisms, so membership did not outgrow leadership, was like trying to contain an explosion. The spiritual hunger of the people and the dedicated efforts of the Eliases brought such rapid growth that Presiding Bishop Victor L. Brown said to Elder Mabey, "I think you are on the frontier of one of the greatest historical events in Church history as far as growth is concerned" (in Rendell N. Mabey and Gordon T. Allred, Brother to Brother [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984], p. 140).

For instance, Elder Mabey tells of traveling a great distance through a rain forest in Nigeria to find a particular congregation. They arrived on a Saturday just as people were leaving a little village church, attached to which was a sign that read, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Elder Mabey reported:

The pastor was very happy and excited to see us and ran out and rang the assembly bell. All the people came back and we held a meeting. The first thing this pastor did after [the meeting concluded], was to stand up with tears in his eyes and thank the Lord for answering their prayers. He said, "You know, today we were assembled here on Saturday because we were breaking a twenty-four hour fast, asking the Lord to send us missionaries. . . . We've listened to you for an hour and we all believe what you tell us is true and we want to be baptized!" [Rendell Mabey interview, p. 217]

In both Nigeria and Ghana the missionaries found hundreds who had testimonies of the Book of Mormon, the Prophet Joseph Smith, and the restoration of the gospel. All they needed was baptism. And so they were baptized! In one 24-hour period, 149 converts were baptized (see Mabey and Allred, Brother to Brother, p. 143). Within one year there were more than 1,700 members in 35 branches in West Africa (see Mabey and Allred, Brother to Brother, p. vii).

After only nine and a half years of missionary work, Elder Neal A. Maxwell organized the Aba Nigeria Stake on May 15, 1988--the first stake in which all priesthood leaders were black--and he noted that this was "a historic day in the Church in this dispensation, and in any dispensation" (in "Nigerian Stake," Church News, 21 May 1988, p. 7).

As Elder Maxwell created this first black African stake, he said to those present:

I was present in the upper room of the temple that early June day in 1978 when all the General Authorities gathered to receive the revelation and decision from President Spencer W. Kimball. I wept with joy that day. The handkerchief I wiped my tears with I took home and told my wife not to wash it. I put it in my book of remembrance, still bearing the marks of my tears of joy.

On this Sunday, I have a second handkerchief that [has] wiped more tears of joy. I will take it home and place it in my book of remembrance next to the other handkerchief. [In "Nigerian Stake," p. 7]

In Ghana the field was also already to harvest, due mainly to another Elias, Joseph William Billy Johnson, a preacher who obtained a Book of Mormon in 1964. He said:

As I read the Book of Mormon I became convinced that it was really the word of God, and sometimes while reading I would burst into tears. I felt the Spirit as I read. . . .

I have a strong testimony [of] the Book of Mormon. It is a very powerful book! [Interview with Joseph William Billy Johnson by E. Dale LeBaron in Cape Coast, Ghana, 23 May 1988]

Brother Johnson also knew that the Lord called him to be an Elias. He said:

One early morning . . . I saw the heavens open and angels with trumpets singing songs of praise unto God. . . . In the course of this I heard my name mentioned thrice, "Johnson, Johnson, Johnson. If you will take up my work as I will command you, I will bless you and bless your land." Trembling and in tears I replied, "Lord, with thy help I will do whatsoever you will command me."

From that day onward, I was constrained by that Spirit to go from street to street . . . to deliver the message which we had read from the Book of Mormon. . . . I did exactly as the Lord commanded me . . . and immediately our persecutions started. [Johnson interview; also a letter from Brother Johnson to the First Presidency, 9 September 1978, and a handwritten document on the history of the Church in Ghana. These are on file with the author. See also E. Dale LeBaron, "All Are Alike unto God" (Orem, Utah: Granite Publishing, 1998), pp. 16–17]

Brother Johnson also reported that at a time of great trial early in his ministry, his deceased brother appeared to him in a dream and said:

"Don't worry. . . you have chosen the only true church on earth . . . and I am now investigating your church." I was surprised. I never knew that the Church extended to another world. It was my brother who brought that knowledge to me. He said that if I didn't believe him, he would sing a song from my church, and he sang "Come, Come, Ye Saints." That was the first time I had heard that hymn. He said, "Don't leave the church, my brother. . . . Please see that I am baptized."

Brother Johnson then noted:

It was my brother who enlightened me about baptism for the dead and brought it to my knowledge. . . . Most of my relatives appeared to me in dreams [saying,] "Reverend Johnson, do you know you have a work to do for us? Our great grandsons and daughters will be in your church soon. See that we are baptized." . . . I learned these doctrines before the missionaries arrived. Nothing they taught us seemed strange. They simply confirmed what we had heard. . . . Each time the Lord addressed us in dreams, He addressed us as Latter-day Saints, even though we had not yet become members. [Johnson interview; see also LeBaron, "All Are Alike," pp. 19–20]

Brother Johnson felt very close to the prophets Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, who reportedly also appeared to him in visions and dreams to strengthen him. A son was born during these trying times, and he is probably the only young man in Ghana today named Brigham.

For 14 years Brother Johnson helped organize 10 congregations. To strengthen his people against trials and persecution, he focused on the early history of the Church. He said:

We felt the spirit of the pioneers. . . . We gained our strength from the pioneers. We were inspired by their works. . . . I would see tears falling from the eyes of my members, especially when we sang, "Come, Come, Ye Saints." That hymn is wonderful. It is my favorite hymn in the Church. [Johnson interview; see also LeBaron, "All Are Alike," p. 19]

One night at midnight, after many lonely years of struggle, Brother Johnson heard a shortwave news broadcast from England in which he heard President Kimball's announcement that all worthy males could receive the priesthood. He burst into tears of joy, knowing that the Church would now come to Africa.

Following Brother Johnson's baptism he served as Ghana's first branch president, after which he served several missions. Twelve years after his baptism he was ordained a patriarch, when Elders Boyd K. Packer and James E. Faust created the first two stakes in Ghana. Last February President Hinckley announced the first temple in black Africa to be built in Accra, Ghana, where Brother Johnson first preached. Soon he and tens of thousands of others can receive temple ordinances and perform them for their kindred dead.

A wonderful sister who performed an Elias-like mission to her people in Ghana was Priscilla Sampson-Davis. She obtained a Book of Mormon in 1963, then studied, prepared, and waited for 15 years. Soon after her baptism she had a vision that she described as follows:

I wasn't asleep. I saw myself at a sacrament meeting and we were singing when I saw a personage in very bright apparel standing in front of the congregation. The Personage called me by name and requested that I come and stand by Him. . . . He then asked me why some were not singing with the others. I told him that they could not read English. . . . He asked me if I wouldn't like to help my sisters and brothers sing praises to our Heavenly Father. I said that I would do my best. Then the vision passed away.

Immediately I . . . started translating the hymn Redeemer of Israel into Fanti [the major dialect in Ghana]. [From interview with Priscilla Sampson-Davis by E. Dale LeBaron in Cape Coast, Ghana, 19 May 1988; see also LeBaron, "All Are Alike," pp. 48–50]

Sister Sampson-Davis translated the hymns, the missionary pamphlets, and Gospel Principles. Then, under assignment, she translated the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price into Fanti. She said, "It was the Lord Himself who commissioned me to do the translation. . . . By translating these things, my brothers and sisters who can't understand English will be able to see and read the true gospel for themselves" (LeBaron, "All Are Alike," pp. 49–50).

Moses Mahlangu, yet another Elias, was a preacher from Soweto, South Africa. He found a copy of the Book of Mormon, but because the bottom of the title page was torn off, he did not know what church had published it.

As he read the book, he was filled with light and understanding. He said, "I had had desires to find God and to receive revelation, but I was never satisfied until I got the Book of Mormon." He told his fellow pastors:

We fight every day over what the Bible says about baptism. We fight about the name of the church. The Book of Mormon is very clear on these points. . . . People will have no need to fight if they read both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. [In LeBaron, "All Are Alike," p. 191]

Fluent in nine languages, Moses taught from the Book of Mormon and gathered many followers before he ever learned the name of the Church and made contact with it. Then, for more than 14 years he waited, preparing himself and others for baptism. During this time he frequently came to the mission office in Johannesburg to obtain copies of the Book of Mormon and other literature, and I was therefore privileged to know him.

Soon after the revelation was announced, I sought out Moses. As we embraced I asked him if he had heard about the revelation. He said, "Yes. Does this mean that I can now be baptized?"

I asked, "Moses, would you like to be baptized?"

His eyes welled up with tears as he said softly, "I have waited for 14 years."

I conducted a baptismal interview that I shall never forget. To every question I received the same answer: "I have been keeping that commandment for 14 years." I was deeply humbled in the presence of this great pioneer. His son, who as a boy accompanied Moses in his ministry, is now serving as Moses' bishop in the Soweto Ward, near Johannesburg.

Presidents Harold B. Lee and Gordon B. Hinckley have said that the strength of the Church is not in our numbers, our buildings, or the amount of tithes and offerings. Our strength is in the testimonies that burn in the hearts of the members (see Harold B. Lee, "Strengthen the Stakes of Zion," p. 6, and Gordon B. Hinckley, "The True Strength of the Church," p. 49; both in Ensign, July 1973).

It has been my privilege to hear hundreds of testimonies from African converts. I share but one. It was spoken by a nine-year-old boy in a fast and testimony meeting in Aba, Nigeria, two weeks after he was baptized. This was his message:

Good morning, brothers and sisters. I am happy to bear my testimony because I was baptized on conference day. Since I joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, God has been guiding me both in the school and at home. Now that I am baptized, I promise to continue obeying God's commandments. I testify that The Church of Jesus Christ is true. I testify that the Prophet Ezra Taft Benson is true. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I say all these things in Jesus' name. Amen. [Taped recording]

The significance of this unique chapter of Church history was summed up by Brother Jude Inmpey from Nigeria. At a social gathering with mission couples, the mission president called on him to share his feelings about the gospel coming to his people. He related a dream that he had not understood until that moment. He had dreamed that he was in a gathering where an organ was playing background music. It sounded terrible, and people were complaining. They discovered that the organist was playing only on the white keys. Brother Inmpey then observed, "For many, many years the Church has been playing only the white keys, but now we are playing on the white and the black keys, and the music is much, much sweeter" (in LeBaron, All Are Alike unto God, p. 123).

The sweetness of this music was experienced last February when President Hinckley became the first president of the Church to visit black Africa. A member of the Twelve observed that not only did the prophet have a great impact on the Saints in Africa, but the Saints in Africa also had a great impact on the prophet.

While in Africa, President Hinckley compared Peter's revelation that opened the door for the gospel to go to the Gentiles nearly 2,000 years ago to the revelation allowing the gospel to go to black Africa. He quoted Peter's statement to Cornelius: "God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34–35). Then the prophet said:

That, my beloved brethren and sisters, describes you. I've had that testimony reconfirmed in my heart on this trip, as I have met with you and many others, that all are alike unto God. We are . . . all of a great family, a marvelous family, the family of the living Christ, worshiping Him together. ["Zimbabwe Pioneers Take Front Row Seats," Church News, 28 February 1998, p. 4]

And, referring to the revelation of June 1978, President Hinckley said, "I want to give testimony here that that was inspired, that that was a revelation from God. I was there. I was an eyewitness to it in the House of the Lord. . . . How grateful we are" .

#119 benwynn

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:33 AM

The last time I saw this much mind numbing, rambling, desperate defense, somebody had said the Honda Ridgeline bed couldn't handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

Ben

#120 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:41 AM

The last time I saw this much mind numbing, rambling, desperate defense, somebody had said the Honda Ridgeline bed couldn't handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

Ben


Ah yes the lame personal attack.

#121 Mark K

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:41 AM

Well, the dynamics are different in America, and many of the Mormon are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West.


You know, morons. Gene Wilder to Cleavon Little, Blazing Saddles


What did you expect? Marry our daughters?

BYU is .14% black.

#122 Olsonist

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:38 AM

Posted Image

I'm pretty sure the Osmonds were originally black.

#123 mikeys clone no1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:23 AM

i am happy to accept evidence of black mormons, i like evidence of things.

#124 craigiri

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:54 AM

\
Really? 28 years before it happened.


No, 60 or more years before it happened.

AND, they knew SC was by far the biggest Slave state which had been causing trouble since Day One.

Yes, really.

You are again proving that religion is brainwashing....it need not be. You can still believe in spirit without those crazy miracles or prophesies.

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/josproph.html

Here is SC passing a nullification law in.....wait.........coming......1832!
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/ordnull.asp
"

An ordinance to nullify certain acts of the Congress of the United States"




Yes, Jackie, your miracle is a FAIL worse than Mary in a Grilled Cheese Sandwich. Please try again......







#125 craigiri

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:58 AM

You do know, Jackie, that Smith was a con man???
A so-called "money digger" who hid minerals in his hat and then pretended to find them in a mine?

Amazing......how we human are conned so easily...because, frankly, to be accepted into the "club" is more important than facing the truth.

#126 Remodel

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:38 AM

Prior to reading this train wreck of a thread, I would have said that no person's religion would disqualify him or her for the job. However, if Happy Jack is a representative example of LDS members, then no, a Mormon should not be president.
Tell me Jack, is Romney remotely like you, or can I stil vote for hom?

#127 Jon Eisberg

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:14 PM

The last time I saw this much mind numbing, rambling, desperate defense, somebody had said the Honda Ridgeline bed couldn't handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

Ben


Well, you know you are in trouble when you play the Faith Card during "the first week of the campaign"...

#128 Clove Hitch

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:33 PM

Prior to reading this train wreck of a thread, I would have said that no person's religion would disqualify him or her for the job. However, if Happy Jack is a representative example of LDS members, then no, a Mormon should not be president.
Tell me Jack, is Romney remotely like you, or can I stil vote for hom?


And yet Jack said he wins these arguments "all the time."

#129 benwynn

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:14 PM


The last time I saw this much mind numbing, rambling, desperate defense, somebody had said the Honda Ridgeline bed couldn't handle a 4x8 sheet of plywood.

Ben


Ah yes the lame personal attack.


"Typical Liberal Mormon Hypocrisy"

Better?

Ben

#130 Junkyard Dog

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:35 PM


Prior to reading this train wreck of a thread, I would have said that no person's religion would disqualify him or her for the job. However, if Happy Jack is a representative example of LDS members, then no, a Mormon should not be president.
Tell me Jack, is Romney remotely like you, or can I stil vote for hom?


And yet Jack said he wins these arguments "all the time."

Badda boom, badda bing!

#131 TheFlash

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:35 PM

Jack has been very successful. Initially I thought Romney's religion wasn't an issue, I just needed to pay attention to his "stated" policies.

Now - I'm a little concerned. Still more focused on policy/leadership, but I will take a deeper look at what Mormonism means, cause now I know the followers can be as nutty as any other religions' followers.

#132 another 505 sailor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:07 PM

It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?

#133 JMD

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:20 PM

It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?

I have not verified the continued existence of Albany in person in recent years but last I heard it's still there.

114 Nevertheless, let the bishop go unto the city of New York, also to the city of Albany, and also to the city of Boston, and warn the people of those cities with the sound of the gospel, with a loud voice, of the desolation and utter abolishment which await them if they do reject these things.

115 For if they do reject these things the hour of their judgment is nigh, and their house shall be left unto them desolate."

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84.111-120?lang=eng



#134 another 505 sailor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:34 PM


It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?

I have not verified the continued existence of Albany in person in recent years but last I heard it's still there.

114 Nevertheless, let the bishop go unto the city of New York, also to the city of Albany, and also to the city of Boston, and warn the people of those cities with the sound of the gospel, with a loud voice, of the desolation and utter abolishment which await them if they do reject these things.

115 For if they do reject these things the hour of their judgment is nigh, and their house shall be left unto them desolate."

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84.111-120?lang=eng


In fairness, there was no date, so the prophecy could still happen.

#135 JMD

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:36 PM



It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?

I have not verified the continued existence of Albany in person in recent years but last I heard it's still there.

114 Nevertheless, let the bishop go unto the city of New York, also to the city of Albany, and also to the city of Boston, and warn the people of those cities with the sound of the gospel, with a loud voice, of the desolation and utter abolishment which await them if they do reject these things.

115 For if they do reject these things the hour of their judgment is nigh, and their house shall be left unto them desolate."

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/84.111-120?lang=eng


In fairness, there was no date, so the prophecy could still happen.

True. All depends on how you define "nigh."

#136 Mark K

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:16 PM

It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


He snipped off the parts that didn't. Like the slaves rising up, which they didn't, and it being a war that engulfed the world.

#137 d'ranger

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:17 PM


It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


He snipped off the parts that didn't. Like the slaves rising up, which they didn't, and it being a war that engulfed the world.

And when he said Missouri he really meant Utah?

#138 Remodel

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:21 PM


It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


He snipped off the parts that didn't. Like the slaves rising up, which they didn't, and it being a war that engulfed the world.



What? Jack taking things out of context to make a point? I am outraged by this outrageously outrageous attempt to slur the name of our resident independent.

NBC apologized for editing the Zimmerman tape. I'm sure that as a good Christian, Jack will likewise apologize.













































Won't you Jack?

#139 craigiri

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:19 PM

I only have one concern here...whether Jackie truly believes the stuff he spouts! If so, I take back all the good things I've said about Romney. At least Catholics laugh at themselves and make jokes about all that "sex is for procreation" stuff.

#140 TornadoCAN99

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:19 PM



Seems you forgot this little tidbit:

Author's affiliation
Ray M. Merrill
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, United States of America


Now why would you want to do a thing like that, eh?


Next time I will so that people like you that can't follow an included link won't make an ass of themselves. BTW are you NDP? It is a simple question. Oh, and ... it was published in a German Journal.

But just for you here is more evidence from a source you may find more palatable.

In 2010, Dr. Breslow, then 95, joined with Prof. James E. Enstrom of U.C.L.A. to publish a paper about a group of California Mormons whom they had studied over 25 years. The life expectancy of the Mormon males was 9.8 years greater than that of the general population of white American males; female Mormons lived 5.6 years longer than their general-population counterparts. The authors credited the Mormons’ healthy lifestyle.

My link


So now you're name calling. Seems to me (and just about everyone else in this thread) there is only one ass here. You might have had better luck getting people to click your posted links if you had not attempted to hack IP's hitting them in order to trace people. Ever since, an HJ link should be viewed as suspect and never be clicked upon.

As to my political affiliations (completely irrelevant to this thread BTW)...none of your loopy-god damned business, so go F$#K yourself. B)

#141 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:25 PM

It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


My understanding is that Faith not proof is the goal of religion. Prophecy is not a stunt to convince those that lack faith. The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it. The point was not "Oh look it came true e.g. God is real" the point was better health.

My daughter is in the IB program and one of the required courses is TOK theory of Knowledge. Even she knows that every "know" is based on faith in a core set of axioms. There is no know, without faith.

Even if you could resolve "a statistically significant number" into an actual integer would that remove all your doubt? Or, would it simply change the confidence level.

#142 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:27 PM




Seems you forgot this little tidbit:

Author's affiliation
Ray M. Merrill
Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, United States of America


Now why would you want to do a thing like that, eh?


Next time I will so that people like you that can't follow an included link won't make an ass of themselves. BTW are you NDP? It is a simple question. Oh, and ... it was published in a German Journal.

But just for you here is more evidence from a source you may find more palatable.

In 2010, Dr. Breslow, then 95, joined with Prof. James E. Enstrom of U.C.L.A. to publish a paper about a group of California Mormons whom they had studied over 25 years. The life expectancy of the Mormon males was 9.8 years greater than that of the general population of white American males; female Mormons lived 5.6 years longer than their general-population counterparts. The authors credited the Mormons’ healthy lifestyle.

My link


So now you're name calling. Seems to me (and just about everyone else in this thread) there is only one ass here. You might have had better luck getting people to click your posted links if you had not attempted to hack IP's hitting them in order to trace people. Ever since, an HJ link should be viewed as suspect and never be clicked upon.

As to my political affiliations (completely irrelevant to this thread BTW)...none of your loopy-god damned business, so go F$#K yourself. B)


Yup.. NDP no doubt about that. ICBC still doing right by ya?

#143 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:28 PM

PS Name calling? Just responding in kind.

#144 TornadoCAN99

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:35 PM

PS Name calling? Just responding in kind.


Seems to me you've failed yet agin old man...i've not called you any names here. I'll gladly accept your apology....

#145 Happy Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:42 PM


PS Name calling? Just responding in kind.


Seems to me you've failed yet agin old man...i've not called you any names here. I'll gladly accept your apology....


Your response was sarcastic and snarkey and implied I was being disingenuous which I was not. The link was posted you were free to inspect the link and verify it before clicking or you could google the title and find it your self. Nothing was hidden. For that I called you an ass. grow a pair and stop whining. You are making me ashamed to admit I'm from Vancouver.

#146 TornadoCAN99

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:50 PM



PS Name calling? Just responding in kind.


Seems to me you've failed yet agin old man...i've not called you any names here. I'll gladly accept your apology....


You are making me ashamed to admit I'm from Vancouver.


Now that is something we agree on...

Still waiting for your apology...you can PM it to me if it's too embarassing to do in public...I know Yanks have trouble admitting when they mess up.

#147 mikeys clone no1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:10 PM

You do know, Jackie, that Smith was a con man???
A so-called "money digger" who hid minerals in his hat and then pretended to find them in a mine?

Amazing......how we human are conned so easily...because, frankly, to be accepted into the "club" is more important than facing the truth.


i would be very suspicious of any club that wanted me!

#148 craigiri

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:11 AM

The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it.


Ridiculous!
There have been thousands of "good health" folks throughout history and very few were considered as prophets!

Here in New England, we have our own Sylvester Graham:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_Graham

Of course, Kellog was a 7th dayer, but didn't claim to lead a flock to the promised land:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Keith_Kellogg

He lived to 91 - not bad for back then!

I really do find it amazing that you can take things like "good food and clean living promotes health" and "the South is gonna come to fisticuffs with the north"...things known by millions of people, and give them other names....and then regard them as "woo woo"....
Posted Image

#149 another 505 sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:29 AM


It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


My understanding is that Faith not proof is the goal of religion. Prophecy is not a stunt to convince those that lack faith. The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it. The point was not "Oh look it came true e.g. God is real" the point was better health.


Then why did you bring it up? I think I know.
A comment was made that religion has no predictive value. You just couldn't let that slide, so you cite a miraculous prophecy of Joseph Smith. For all we know he made that prophecy 34 times.

#150 Spatial Ed

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:37 AM

My daughter is in the IB program and one of the required courses is TOK theory of Knowledge.

Which wife is this daughter from?

#151 Bull Gator

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:46 AM

The brazillian?

#152 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:07 AM




PS Name calling? Just responding in kind.


Seems to me you've failed yet agin old man...i've not called you any names here. I'll gladly accept your apology....


You are making me ashamed to admit I'm from Vancouver.


Now that is something we agree on...

Still waiting for your apology...you can PM it to me if it's too embarassing to do in public...I know Yanks have trouble admitting when they mess up.



"Or, what about wanking...presumably the non-lds folks are all wankers, and lds'ers abstain. Or maybe it's the special underpants?"

After you.

Most of the NDP I knew were angry, envious, manifesto swilling socialists/communists.

#153 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:27 AM



It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


My understanding is that Faith not proof is the goal of religion. Prophecy is not a stunt to convince those that lack faith. The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it. The point was not "Oh look it came true e.g. God is real" the point was better health.


Then why did you bring it up? I think I know.
A comment was made that religion has no predictive value. You just couldn't let that slide, so you cite a miraculous prophecy of Joseph Smith. For all we know he made that prophecy 34 times.


I don't understand 34 times? It was one revelation and was added to LDS scripture in 1832. He was murdered 11 years later in 1844. The Revolutionary war was 16 years after that. Craigiri says "EVERYONE" knew there would be a war between the north and the South and it would start with South Carolina's succession and that the south would ally with England. 28 years before it happened. Now if this had been some newpaper article musing and that of all Joseph Smith's musings this one happened to ring true. OK coincidence, lucky guess. But he put this into LDS scripture and if today, peace had been achieved without war or the north had let the South leave the union to avoid bloodshed, you would be pointing to that scriptrure and saying "Fail". Only it wasn't a "Fail" was it.

#154 craigiri

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:36 AM

the south would ally with England.


Yep, who could have possibly thought that back in 1830?

"British textile manufacturers were eager to buy all the cotton that the South could produce. Cotton-bale production supports this conclusion - 20,000 bales in 1830"


Magic....woo woo woo.
The con man was good.....


You should start a religion with John Adams as the Prophet!
"He predicted that if a civil war were to break out, the president could abolish slavery by using his war powers. Adams also predicted the Union's dissolution over the slavery issue"


Amazingly enough, Adams was saying and writing this.....wow.....just about when Smith had his "revelation".

#155 craigiri

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:37 AM

BTW, I predict China will eclipse America as the world's greatest economic engine and power.

How many women does that entitle me to?Posted Image

#156 Spatial Ed

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:49 AM

BTW, I predict China will eclipse America as the world's greatest economic engine and power.

How many women does that entitle me to?Posted Image

I'm following you. How many bitches do I get?

#157 Clove Hitch

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:50 AM


BTW, I predict China will eclipse America as the world's greatest economic engine and power.

How many women does that entitle me to?Posted Image

I'm following you. How many bitches do I get?


What's this business about a white salamander? Is he our friend or something to be feared?

#158 craigiri

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:53 AM

Yep, Jackie, nobody knew anything...
"Following 1812, and until the Civil War, maintaining the balance of free and slave states within the federal legislature was considered of paramount importance if the Union were to be preserved, and states were typically admitted in pairs:"

Well, nobody knew except everyone other than the hicks that Smith found in the boonies...who either didn't read or didn't get the news. This was before the telegraph.....

BTW, didn't he also declare Independence, MO as the Center of Zion? Was he also right about that?

#159 Mark K

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:53 AM




It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


My understanding is that Faith not proof is the goal of religion. Prophecy is not a stunt to convince those that lack faith. The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it. The point was not "Oh look it came true e.g. God is real" the point was better health.


Then why did you bring it up? I think I know.
A comment was made that religion has no predictive value. You just couldn't let that slide, so you cite a miraculous prophecy of Joseph Smith. For all we know he made that prophecy 34 times.


I don't understand 34 times? It was one revelation and was added to LDS scripture in 1832. He was murdered 11 years later in 1844. The Revolutionary war was 16 years after that. Craigiri says "EVERYONE" knew there would be a war between the north and the South and it would start with South Carolina's succession and that the south would ally with England. 28 years before it happened. Now if this had been some newpaper article musing and that of all Joseph Smith's musings this one happened to ring true. OK coincidence, lucky guess. But he put this into LDS scripture and if today, peace had been achieved without war or the north had let the South leave the union to avoid bloodshed, you would be pointing to that scriptrure and saying "Fail". Only it wasn't a "Fail" was it.


England never allied with the South. They played a double game. They were afraid that we would invade Canada in retaliation for them openly supporting the south and positioned themselves to have good relations with the winner no matter who that would be. In espionage, they trained Rebel spies and even gave them a place to hide in Canada, but they would then rat a few out every now and again themselves for Northern brownie points.

South Carolina had been the problem child since the days of Andrew Jackson and the nullification crisis.

#160 Spatial Ed

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:09 AM



BTW, I predict China will eclipse America as the world's greatest economic engine and power.

How many women does that entitle me to?Posted Image

I'm following you. How many bitches do I get?


What's this business about a white salamander? Is he our friend or something to be feared?

It's a really creepy story about joe smiths dead brothers corpse. Do your own research.

#161 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:10 AM

Yep, Jackie, nobody knew anything...
"Following 1812, and until the Civil War, maintaining the balance of free and slave states within the federal legislature was considered of paramount importance if the Union were to be preserved, and states were typically admitted in pairs:"

Well, nobody knew except everyone other than the hicks that Smith found in the boonies...who either didn't read or didn't get the news. This was before the telegraph.....

BTW, didn't he also declare Independence, MO as the Center of Zion? Was he also right about that?

Keep working it. Here try this one... predict the final resolution of the existing cease fire on the Korea peninsula.

Or this gem.. Will Israel go to war again with it's neighborhood. Which country will it start with?

Both senarios have similar characteristics. Now consider that you are Joe Craigiri and you just started a phony baloney religion. Would you add a "Revelation" to your scriptures about something that might be proved wrong in a very short period of time? Maybe it would start in a different state, maybe a weak president would wilt and let the South leave, maybe England would be at war with France or Spain and remain neutral. Any one of those could have come about in just a year or two and the gig would have been up. He claimed a revelation from God that had substantial opportunity to be proven wrong if he was indeed a false prophet. As I characterized it before. It was a gutsy move.

#162 Mark K

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:18 AM



Ain't theology fun? A bunch of arguing over shit that can never be resolved, as there is no evidence or data to resolve the arguments!

evidence? dont bring that shit here!

and there are no black mormons cause they understand the importance of evidence.



Nah, I have to defend the Mormon church on that one. Their missions were all over Africa when I was there. Probably better than a million or so black Mormons by now. Jack will probably look that up. They were doing a bunch of little things the Catholics and Anglicans were missing. Crafty buggers.


Even before there were missions.


In 1853, nine years after the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph Smith, missionaries were sent to Africa... et al...


He didn't mention the wonderful job they did avoiding getting their heads chopped off by the Catholic tribes! The story of how the State Dept and the CIA guided them and kept them from stepping on the wrong toes is a hell of a story. Sent kids to Africa and IIRC not a one of them was killed, and nobody ever tried to eradicate them after setting up shop.

Ain't it always the case when things are done exactly right? No fuss, no muss, and everybody thinks it must have been easy.

#163 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:27 AM





It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


My understanding is that Faith not proof is the goal of religion. Prophecy is not a stunt to convince those that lack faith. The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it. The point was not "Oh look it came true e.g. God is real" the point was better health.


Then why did you bring it up? I think I know.
A comment was made that religion has no predictive value. You just couldn't let that slide, so you cite a miraculous prophecy of Joseph Smith. For all we know he made that prophecy 34 times.


I don't understand 34 times? It was one revelation and was added to LDS scripture in 1832. He was murdered 11 years later in 1844. The Revolutionary war was 16 years after that. Craigiri says "EVERYONE" knew there would be a war between the north and the South and it would start with South Carolina's succession and that the south would ally with England. 28 years before it happened. Now if this had been some newpaper article musing and that of all Joseph Smith's musings this one happened to ring true. OK coincidence, lucky guess. But he put this into LDS scripture and if today, peace had been achieved without war or the north had let the South leave the union to avoid bloodshed, you would be pointing to that scriptrure and saying "Fail". Only it wasn't a "Fail" was it.


England never allied with the South. They played a double game. They were afraid that we would invade Canada in retaliation for them openly supporting the south and positioned themselves to have good relations with the winner no matter who that would be. In espionage, they trained Rebel spies and even gave them a place to hide in Canada, but they would then rat a few out every now and again themselves for Northern brownie points.

South Carolina had been the problem child since the days of Andrew Jackson and the nullification crisis.


They allowed the South to build/buy/service/provision their warships in England and other British territories and funded the British Blockade Runners. About as neutral as we were with "Lend Lease".

In the aftermath, American relations suffered until the treaty of 1871 when Britain finally agreed to pay $15,500,000 in reparations for the damages done by the British built ships. Google "Alabama Claims"

Stop being so ignorant of American History. I'm a Canadian and apparently know more than you do.

#164 TheFlash

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:31 AM

You see a prophet, I see a philandering con man.

#165 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:32 AM

You see a prophet, I see a philandering con man.


If there is a point there I missed it.

#166 mikeys clone no1

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:36 AM

did he predict a black president?

#167 mikeys clone no1

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:37 AM


You see a prophet, I see a philandering con man.


If there is a point there I missed it.


and that is why you believe

#168 Mark K

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:41 AM

They allowed the South to build/buy/service/provision their warships in England and other British territories and funded the British Blockade Runners. About as neutral as we were with "Lend Lease".

In the aftermath, American relations suffered until the treaty of 1871 when Britain finally agreed to pay $15,500,000 in reparations for the damages done by the British built ships. Google "Alabama Claims"

Stop being so ignorant of American History. I'm a Canadian and apparently know more than you do.


They sold some ships, but had to deliver them to waiting crews offshore to maintain "neutrality". They were that timid about it. They withheld the largest and most powerful navy in the world at that time. Could have broken the blockade in a snap. The Confederate Army damn near starved and many never even had shoes because of that.

Some ally. It must be the unfamiliarity that Canadians have with fighting that makes you believe that makes them an "ally". That would make Prescott Bush an ally of Hitler for doing business with them while they invaded Poland.

#169 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:33 AM




They allowed the South to build/buy/service/provision their warships in England and other British territories and funded the British Blockade Runners. About as neutral as we were with "Lend Lease".

In the aftermath, American relations suffered until the treaty of 1871 when Britain finally agreed to pay $15,500,000 in reparations for the damages done by the British built ships. Google "Alabama Claims"

Stop being so ignorant of American History. I'm a Canadian and apparently know more than you do.


They sold some ships, but had to deliver them to waiting crews offshore to maintain "neutrality". They were that timid about it. They withheld the largest and most powerful navy in the world at that time. Could have broken the blockade in a snap. The Confederate Army damn near starved and many never even had shoes because of that.

Some ally. It must be the unfamiliarity that Canadians have with fighting that makes you believe that makes them an "ally". That would make Prescott Bush an ally of Hitler for doing business with them while they invaded Poland.


This is the actual scripture

"3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations."

At the start of the war the British sent a mail ship, the Trent, to Cuba and it was returning with diplomats James Mason and John Slidell. The Trent was boarded by a Northern vessel and James Mason and John Slidell were captured.

Now read the part of the scripture I bolded.

Britain did not remain very neutral, they encouraged and even funded surrogates to aid the South. The likelihood that France would side with the North was the larger reason England maintained an air or neutrality. In fact you could argue that Southern overtures to the British actually worked in the sense that the alignment between the South and Britain was just right. They got aid but not so much that France entered the war on behalf of the North.

In any case the scripture does not indicate the result of the Southern Call for aid only that it would occur. If I mischaracterized the Scripture to say they were allies that was my error not the scripture's.

#170 another 505 sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:38 AM




It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


My understanding is that Faith not proof is the goal of religion. Prophecy is not a stunt to convince those that lack faith. The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it. The point was not "Oh look it came true e.g. God is real" the point was better health.


Then why did you bring it up? I think I know.
A comment was made that religion has no predictive value. You just couldn't let that slide, so you cite a miraculous prophecy of Joseph Smith. For all we know he made that prophecy 34 times.


I don't understand 34 times? It was one revelation and was added to LDS scripture in 1832. He was murdered 11 years later in 1844. The Revolutionary war was 16 years after that. Craigiri says "EVERYONE" knew there would be a war between the north and the South and it would start with South Carolina's succession and that the south would ally with England. 28 years before it happened. Now if this had been some newpaper article musing and that of all Joseph Smith's musings this one happened to ring true. OK coincidence, lucky guess. But he put this into LDS scripture and if today, peace had been achieved without war or the north had let the South leave the union to avoid bloodshed, you would be pointing to that scriptrure and saying "Fail". Only it wasn't a "Fail" was it.


Smith had a 1 in 34 chance when he chose South Carolina.
You're smart, I didn't think I'd have to spell it out for you.

#171 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:39 AM





It would be interesting to see the prophecies that did not come true. It would take a statistically significant number of of them coming true to be a miracle, otherwise it's just a coincidence, no?


My understanding is that Faith not proof is the goal of religion. Prophecy is not a stunt to convince those that lack faith. The Word of Wisdom predicted better health if you follow it. The point was not "Oh look it came true e.g. God is real" the point was better health.


Then why did you bring it up? I think I know.
A comment was made that religion has no predictive value. You just couldn't let that slide, so you cite a miraculous prophecy of Joseph Smith. For all we know he made that prophecy 34 times.


I don't understand 34 times? It was one revelation and was added to LDS scripture in 1832. He was murdered 11 years later in 1844. The Revolutionary war was 16 years after that. Craigiri says "EVERYONE" knew there would be a war between the north and the South and it would start with South Carolina's succession and that the south would ally with England. 28 years before it happened. Now if this had been some newpaper article musing and that of all Joseph Smith's musings this one happened to ring true. OK coincidence, lucky guess. But he put this into LDS scripture and if today, peace had been achieved without war or the north had let the South leave the union to avoid bloodshed, you would be pointing to that scriptrure and saying "Fail". Only it wasn't a "Fail" was it.


Smith had a 1 in 34 chance when he chose South Carolina.
You're smart, I didn't think I'd have to spell it out for you.



I'll bet you play the lotto.

#172 another 505 sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:45 AM

No, the odds are much worse than 34 to 1.

#173 Happy Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:53 AM

No, the odds are much worse than 34 to 1.


A picture is worth 34 words in this case

Posted Image

#174 Mark K

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:13 AM





They allowed the South to build/buy/service/provision their warships in England and other British territories and funded the British Blockade Runners. About as neutral as we were with "Lend Lease".

In the aftermath, American relations suffered until the treaty of 1871 when Britain finally agreed to pay $15,500,000 in reparations for the damages done by the British built ships. Google "Alabama Claims"

Stop being so ignorant of American History. I'm a Canadian and apparently know more than you do.


They sold some ships, but had to deliver them to waiting crews offshore to maintain "neutrality". They were that timid about it. They withheld the largest and most powerful navy in the world at that time. Could have broken the blockade in a snap. The Confederate Army damn near starved and many never even had shoes because of that.

Some ally. It must be the unfamiliarity that Canadians have with fighting that makes you believe that makes them an "ally". That would make Prescott Bush an ally of Hitler for doing business with them while they invaded Poland.


This is the actual scripture

"3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations."

At the start of the war the British sent a mail ship, the Trent, to Cuba and it was returning with diplomats James Mason and John Slidell. The Trent was boarded by a Northern vessel and James Mason and John Slidell were captured.

Now read the part of the scripture I bolded.

Britain did not remain very neutral, they encouraged and even funded surrogates to aid the South. The likelihood that France would side with the North was the larger reason England maintained an air or neutrality. In fact you could argue that Southern overtures to the British actually worked in the sense that the alignment between the South and Britain was just right. They got aid but not so much that France entered the war on behalf of the North.

In any case the scripture does not indicate the result of the Southern Call for aid only that it would occur. If I mischaracterized the Scripture to say they were allies that was my error not the scripture's.


They backed down in the Trent affair. This, the withholding their fleet, and the lack of any pact of alliance you call "allied". French Canadian, right?

The slaves never rebelled, and the war did not "pour upon other nations".

#175 craigiri

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

I'd say the Civil War starting in SC was about a 1 in 2.

So he got a coin toss correct. Actually the odds were probably higher - like 70-80% it was gonna start there....

http://en.wikipedia....Nullifier_Party

http://en.wikipedia....John_C._Calhoun

"In 1832, states' rights theory was put to the test in the Nullification Crisis, after South Carolina passed an ordinance that nullified federal tariffs."
Jackie, Canadians should probably keep away from US History. You were singing praises to the Queen while we were reading.

#176 Spatial Ed

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:43 PM

Jack quoting Joe Smith prophecies as proof Mormons are righteous is hilarious.
How about all the prophecies that were later amended and rejected Jack? Like polygamy and racism?
Doesn't it say a great deal about a religion that keeps changing their rules for political expediency?

Here's my big prediction on the next major Mormon policy change, and probably this year....
Once it becomes revealed that the Mormons have baptized Ronald Reagan, outrage from the religious right will cause the prophet to have a revelation that posthumous baptism is no longer an LDS sacrament.

#177 TheFlash

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:56 PM

they baptized good ol' Ronnie? That's just low.

#178 Spatial Ed

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

they baptized good ol' Ronnie? That's just low.

If they didn't, why not? Don't they like him?

#179 craigiri

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

they baptized good ol' Ronnie? That's just low.


Heck, they baptized Holocaust Victims....the family of the famous Elie Wiesell among others....

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2012/02/mitt-romney-mormon-baptism-elie-wiesel-holocaust/1#.T47I3jJWqrg


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/15/mormons-still-baptizing-dead-jews-despite-agreements-to-end-practice.html

Can't get much lower than that!

#180 Remodel

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:43 PM

I'm still waiting for Jack to apologize for quoting out of context like the good Christian he is.

#181 Remodel

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:20 PM

Bump.



What about it Jack?

#182 Remodel

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:06 PM

Prior to reading this train wreck of a thread, I would have said that no person's religion would disqualify him or her for the job. However, if Happy Jack is a representative example of LDS members, then no, a Mormon should not be president.
Tell me Jack, is Romney remotely like you, or can I stil vote for hom?



What about it Jack?

#183 badlatitude

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 06:11 PM

The GOP base worries about a Mormon president:



#184 TornadoCAN99

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:59 PM

Them mormons are sure a scary bunch:


JT-Ready

"Jason Todd Ready, an Arizona white supremacist, ordained Mormon priest, border vigilante, and candidate for sheriff, apparently killed three adults and a child before killing himself, according to police. "

#185 Spatial Ed

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:14 AM

Them mormons are sure a scary bunch:


JT-Ready

"Jason Todd Ready, an Arizona white supremacist, ordained Mormon priest, border vigilante, and candidate for sheriff, apparently killed three adults and a child before killing himself, according to police. "

Mormons are not immune to some pretty fucked up behavior. The dude who killed his wife and reported her missing in Utah, then on a court ordered visitation, locked the kids inside, killed them with a machete and blew up the house was also a Mormon. Not saying Mormonism drives some people insane, but it certainly doesn't prevent them.

#186 craigiri

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:57 AM

And this is the situation that folks here thing has nothing to do with the right or GOP......

It was just domestic violence......just like Gabby getting shot had nothing to do with all the rants 24/7 in that part of the world, the talk of gunplay, etc.

The fact that the AZ senator who wrote their immigration law was his buddy, the guy is a vigilante, violent, has military arms, neo-nazi, etc......

Nothing to see here.....just an everyday, ordinary case of Domestic Violence. Happens every day. Mormon Republicans shooting toddlers....

#187 Regatta Dog

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:19 AM

And this is the situation that folks here thing has nothing to do with the right or GOP......

It was just domestic violence......just like Gabby getting shot had nothing to do with all the rants 24/7 in that part of the world, the talk of gunplay, etc.

The fact that the AZ senator who wrote their immigration law was his buddy, the guy is a vigilante, violent, has military arms, neo-nazi, etc......

Nothing to see here.....just an everyday, ordinary case of Domestic Violence. Happens every day. Mormon Republicans shooting toddlers....


You are such a revolting and divisive chunk of shit.




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