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Swimming in Foulie's and boots


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#1 Madmax

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

Let's be safe out there and support PFD usage.

#2 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:14 AM

Yes I have.
It nearly ended badly.
You'd think boots and foulies would achieve something near neutral buoyancy when wet, but they don't. They combine with water to form lead.

#3 Left Hook

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:19 AM

I tried swimming in a pool with foulies on during safety at sea yesterday. Even without boots on it was obvious that I wouldn't make it more than 200 yds... and that was in flat calm 75 degree water.

Wear PFD's. Like seatbelts they're uncomfortable and sometimes a pain to deal with but by the time you realize you need one it's usually too late.

#4 Bulbhunter

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:21 AM

Yes jumped into the pool last spring with all my gear on to see how long the foulies hold air - how they leak - how the boots impact my ability to kick and the level of float support the life jacket gave me.

With all the gear on all you can really do is make slow migration in the general direction you intend to go. Against waves, wind and current forget about it.

#5 LDH

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:32 AM

From my experience, when I stepped into the pool for Sea Saftey a reasonable amount of buoyancy seems to be retained with the air in kit etc, I felt like I could have swam for a pretty reasonable amount of time. When you fall from windward on a boat (several meters) and plunge into the water all that air is expressed, any expectations about how it feels to swim in wet gear are quickly diminished! Definitely a lot harder with no air in your kit and waves rolling you about.

And seems simple but strobe lanyards long enough for the strobe to be held above water without having to untie it.



#6 floating dutchman

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:51 AM

I took my six year old to the pool yesterday, they have one of those wave thingys, Just for shits and giggles I tried to just float as the waves came past, (like you would if MOB) and it was surprisingly diffcult to not get water on the mouth, I'm a skinny fella so I don't float well but I think I'd be knackered in about twenty minets in anything colder than cool water.

Edit to add. My neibour got tipped out of his fizz boat coming over a bar a few weeks back, They found him 1 1/2 hours plus after it happened. He doesn't remember being in the water more than about twenty minetes or so. They took him to the hostipal and found that he'd had a heart attack while in the water.

Fucken lucky to be alive. He's an older chap and usualy doesn't wear a life jacket. He was that day (luckly) and always does now.

#7 dash34

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:04 AM

When I did Safety at Sea I was surprised at how easy it was to swim in my foulies. Mind you, my ancient Plastimo jacket has about 40N of floatation, but that is all it took to get to neutral bouyancy.

Why don't the foulie manufacturers put a small amount of floatation in their jackets anymore? For $800 for a jacket, you'd think they would. The floatation in my jacket is hardly noticeable, feels like just an extra thick fabric.

dash

#8 Steam Flyer

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:58 PM

When I did Safety at Sea I was surprised at how easy it was to swim in my foulies. Mind you, my ancient Plastimo jacket has about 40N of floatation, but that is all it took to get to neutral bouyancy.

Why don't the foulie manufacturers put a small amount of floatation in their jackets anymore? For $800 for a jacket, you'd think they would. The floatation in my jacket is hardly noticeable, feels like just an extra thick fabric.

dash


Can help keep you warm too. This is a great idea.

One of the lessons I got from a sailing instructor course was to jump in the water and then try to put on a lifejacket. Amazingly difficult... not one of those things you want to learn the hard way.

Modern lifejackets have gotten better & better, wearing one is just common sense

FB- Doug

#9 Jem

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

if you wear foulies - always put a lifejacket on if you want to be positively buoyant

#10 Canal Bottom

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 01:47 PM

The key is to stay out of cold water. Consider this... The night the Titanic went down only one male, a drunk cook, who ended up in the water survived. The water was flat calm. Virtually everyone had life jackets on. Hundreds of crew and passengers of all skills and backgrounds knew they where going to get cold and wet. Flat calm, with advance notice, on a giant ship with materials and labor of every type and only one person who ended up in the water survived? Consider the lifeboats that got off, some half empty, and the rescue ship that arrived on the scene only 2 hours after the sinking. Flat calm, significant resources and 80% of the men perished and only one who got wet lived.

If you end up in cold water even with a PFD you are in real jeopardy.

#11 Mahogany Reef

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:16 PM

Good points all... For me the PFD goes on when the foulies go on for sure. PFD at night for sure. It also goes on when wind picks up.

This has been a learned habit for me. When I was growing up we didn't use them nearly as often. We were young (and lucky) fools back then.

#12 Ajax

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:25 PM

I am buying jacklines to-fucking-day. :(

#13 Friggin' in the Riggin'

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:25 PM

Aging has made me more cautious. If the bibs and the boots are on so is the PFD. I haven't tried to take the boots off in the water, which I think you would need to do in order to swim effectively, but I think it would take quite a bit of energy. Energy that would be better used to help yourself get back on board.

#14 casc27

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:28 PM

Yes, I have tried to swim with all the kit on. And, as others have already observed, forward progress was something more than difficult. Even just treading water became very tiring as the foulies full of water did not like to move easily. I also tried a couple of survival positions and found both difficult to maintain without additional floatation.

One more note about the PFD thing: in addition to being virtually impossible to don once you are in the water they will likely prove useless unless properly fastened (zipped, clipped, whatever your flavor uses) as they tend to float right off of your body.

Some interesting information about water survival here: Navy Water Survival

#15 us7070

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:40 PM

Aging has made me more cautious. If the bibs and the boots are on so is the PFD. I haven't tried to take the boots off in the water, which I think you would need to do in order to swim effectively, but I think it would take quite a bit of energy. Energy that would be better used to help yourself get back on board.



At the SAS I went to, they advised against removing boots.

I think if you don't have a PFD on, and feel that you are in danger of drowning, then removing them might be necessary. But, I wouldn't be surprised if many boots have positive buoyancy.

But if you are wearing a PFD, then you are not going to do much swimming anyway - you are probably waiting for someone to get you.

Every situation is different, but whereas I used to think that removing seaboots might be something I would do early on, I now think of it as more of a last resort.

#16 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:44 PM

All,

I'd make a strong suggestion that rather than looking at PFD requirements from the Coast Guard and the Race Officers who are overseeing an event as the maximum you need to wear and trying to figure out if your non USCG approved vest will sneak by, you consider those regulations the minimum acceptable level of floatation. These minimum requirements have been developed as a compromise with the old-farts like me who grew up sailing without any PFD and have generally resisted these requirements and the folks doing real safety studies who think sailors are simply nuts for going to sea without proper safety gear. It's your life, you choose. Just a suggestion that a PFD that is always worn in position (as opposed to in a bag around your waist) is about the minimum any sane person would accept.

BV

#17 jackdaw

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 02:50 PM

Let's be safe out there and support PFD usage.


One of our standing rules:
If you got your foulies on, you MUST have your PFD on.

There are other times where PFD use is at a crewmember's discretion, but this is not one of them.

#18 harzak

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:25 PM

20 years ago some friends of mine participated in a scientific experiment made by SINTEF of Norway, to find out how the body copes in 4 degrees Celsius water (the water is heaviest at 4 degrees C). This is what I remeber from the results.

There are quite large individual differences (up to at least double survival time), which can not be attributed to body fat only. Speculation was that the ability to relax and not get the small shakes (teeth chattering etc) could have been key, because in cold water, it is critical to remain as still as possible. This is because water leads heat very well, so you need the water around your body (inside boots, trousers, jacket) to form a heat cushion against the colder water of the sea. If possible, you should keep your boots on and close the openings on your jacket, mimic'ing a wet suit.

(Caveat: Memory on exact numbers may be a bit inaccurate.) Without PFD, you'll have to move to keep bouancy, and keep alive for max. 30 minutes, perhaps half if you actively try to swim somewhere. With PFD, you'll be able to lie more still, and could be able to keep alive for 1.5-2 hours if you're lucky (again, in 4 degrees Celsius water).

Alcohol, even just one drink before falling in the water, greatly reduces the time (by half IIRC). The reason is that alcohol makes the blood vessels expand, so you lose heat faster.

Bad sea state increases circulation of water and need for movement, thus reducing the survival time.

#19 Grrl Runnin the Pointy End

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 03:56 PM

I am a weak swimmer. That has never kept me from racing because I know when to put my PFD on. I am fearless in my PFD.

That said, when our boat sank, we were in the water for 1 1/2 hours. I had on a warm float coat that I used as a ski jacket the prior winter. I still got as hypothermic as everybody else in their PFDs.

My PFD philosophy: Be considerate of your fellow crewmembers. If nothing else, wear the friggin' PFD so that the poor bastards who come looking for you have something to find.

#20 ShockValue

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 04:07 PM

I'm young enough that I was raised with the "seatbelt, always" rule, and at this point if I'm not wearing one it feels WRONG. I'm trying to get in that same mindset for the PFD.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but if I'm racing, my PFD is on. Sun, rain, wind, whatever.


Sure, if we're drifting around enjoying the sun on a calm day, I'm more lax about it. But then, those are the day's I'm likely to jump in the water on purpose anyway!



#21 Jetpowered

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:22 PM


Let's be safe out there and support PFD usage.


One of our standing rules:
If you got your foulies on, you MUST have your PFD on.

There are other times where PFD use is at a crewmember's discretion, but this is not one of them.



Amen!

#22 Stu McCrea

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:26 PM

Yes i have, but i use a system now after that experience.

I run aglie hiking boots and remove the laces. I wrap electrical tap around them to close them shut and keep them on. If in the event you go in the water you can easily break the tape and remove at least the boots.

#23 Cavandish

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:28 PM

On the good enough for a 3 hour beer can race front, it is always a good idea to pick some nice warm day to don your shitty nasty day gear and just jump in with a boat nearby. Treading water is hard as hell even in proper swimwear add in anything that weighs you down and it gets impossible quickly. If in doubt do it, then think for a second that if/when it happens unintentionally you may not have your consciousness. Let your body go limp for a second and pay attention to where your head is in respect to the water surface. I don't care how good anyone is, shit breaks, stays, masts, cleats anyone who doesn't want to wear one should be required to demonstrate how it is they plan to not drown should they be knocked unconscious and in the drink. That is just my opinion, but i do support that PFDs be worn in all racing events. I don't care if they are USCG approved, but think that users of ones that aren't should be encouraged to test them.

#24 WHL

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:49 PM

Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.

#25 Bulbhunter

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:59 PM

Hey better than jumping into the drink with your gear on - just borrow a neighbors pool while its still cold from the winter months. You can take your time and concentrate on whats taking place with your gear vs keeping track of the rescue boat hovering around you. When you've had enough you simply walk out of the pool strip your gear dry off and get warmed up.

My pool was 49degrees when I did my gear test last spring! What I found is that the first 5-10minutes I was toasty warm and not really water logged and the manner in which I floated with air trapped in the gear made moving around really difficult. Your legs are nearly as boyant as your top half it has an awkward effect on your body positioning in the water. When you start moving around it speeds up the loss of heat and trapped air in your gear surprisingly fast! With 49degree water I was perfectly fine the first 10 minutes not cold or really all that wet. Then I started to move around see how well I could get to the other end of the pool etc. It was very difficult and within minutes of moving around I was getting numb. After about 13 minutes in the water I had to get out and get out of the gear my chest was starting to tighten up legs and feet were getting numb etc. By the time I got out of the gear my skin felt as if it were burning.

Very sobering experience and I highly suggest every sailor find a cold pool to jump into and test their full kit. You notice things you never would have thought of. Like how very awkward you are in the way you float with all your gear holding trapped air. How loose stuff in pockets find its way out pretty fast. Lanyards on important things is a MUST! Jump in at night in the dark and test your lighting options. Strobes are great for the searchers but suck ASS for you as they blind the shit out of you and kill your night vision. Having a way to keep the strobe behind your head and limiting its ability to wipe out your night vision is a very good idea.

#26 opa1

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:07 PM

You can bet, as an owner, I will make sure everyone, and I mean everyone, has the proper life saving gear, and wearing it. I think we all get a little lax on the dangers that we face while at sea. Shit happens and I for one will make every effort to prevent a disaster. My crew hates to wear the PFD's. They will wear them or they won't race on my boat. Prayers for those lost in CA.

#27 TheFlash

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:07 PM

I am buying jacklines to-fucking-day. :(


you can make some pretty inexpensively.

#28 coyotepup

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:30 PM

The key is to stay out of cold water. Consider this... The night the Titanic went down only one male, a drunk cook, who ended up in the water survived. The water was flat calm. Virtually everyone had life jackets on. Hundreds of crew and passengers of all skills and backgrounds knew they where going to get cold and wet. Flat calm, with advance notice, on a giant ship with materials and labor of every type and only one person who ended up in the water survived? Consider the lifeboats that got off, some half empty, and the rescue ship that arrived on the scene only 2 hours after the sinking. Flat calm, significant resources and 80% of the men perished and only one who got wet lived.

Not quite true....a number of people ended up in the water and survived. Your point is well taken of course about being immersed in the ice-cold water, but there were others who survived immersion. They simply got out quickly. It's not an immediate death sentence if you have some resources, your wits about you, and some luck.

#29 tommays

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:40 PM

IMHP At SAS the breast stroke was pretty effective in moving about as your arms and legs had the best range of motion to do that stroke with the least effort in full gear

If it was cold you would NOT have been doing it long enough to get very far as plenty of people were cold even in the 75 deg pool

#30 some dude

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:46 PM

I went for an unscheduled swim off San Diego one time with a one piece and boots on when the lifeline broke. Got pretty tired pretty quickly, and had 2 thoughts; 1. my lifejacket is down below which is not helping and 2. what a stupid way to die-bouy racing 3 miles offshore form the Hotel Del. I was back on the boat within a minute but it was still an eye opener.

#31 Lynch

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:03 PM

Many of my crew are my kids and my friends kids. My kids are serious swimmers but one rule applies to all crew . PFD (including crotch strap) before we leave the dock.

#32 Hobie Dog

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:00 PM

As another data point, wetsuits provide LOTS of added buoyancy. I know they are uncomfortable on a keel boat but on a windy day on my Laser it is the gear of choice as you are getting wet/swimming anyways. With my 4/5MM suit and 7MM dive boots even without my PFD I float right on the surface.

#33 Bulbhunter

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:07 PM

As another data point, wetsuits provide LOTS of added buoyancy. I know they are uncomfortable on a keel boat but on a windy day on my Laser it is the gear of choice as you are getting wet/swimming anyways. With my 4/5MM suit and 7MM dive boots even without my PFD I float right on the surface.


I found an alternative to the wetsuit. Kayaking apparel companies have perfected the under layer pants which are basically very thin wetsuits - they work great under the foul weather gear for cases where you know your getting really wet only down side they can be freaking hot if the temps aren't cold. I wear these with my foul weather bib on the Feva they work great even during a no so graceful jibe and crash resulting in a swimming lesson. FAR FAR superior to wearing an actual wet suit on a big boat thats for sure!

#34 Hobie Dog

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:13 PM


As another data point, wetsuits provide LOTS of added buoyancy. I know they are uncomfortable on a keel boat but on a windy day on my Laser it is the gear of choice as you are getting wet/swimming anyways. With my 4/5MM suit and 7MM dive boots even without my PFD I float right on the surface.


I found an alternative to the wetsuit. Kayaking apparel companies have perfected the under layer pants which are basically very thin wetsuits - they work great under the foul weather gear for cases where you know your getting really wet only down side they can be freaking hot if the temps aren't cold. I wear these with my foul weather bib on the Feva they work great even during a no so graceful jibe and crash resulting in a swimming lesson. FAR FAR superior to wearing an actual wet suit on a big boat thats for sure!


Cool I'll check them out...

#35 Bulbhunter

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:18 PM



As another data point, wetsuits provide LOTS of added buoyancy. I know they are uncomfortable on a keel boat but on a windy day on my Laser it is the gear of choice as you are getting wet/swimming anyways. With my 4/5MM suit and 7MM dive boots even without my PFD I float right on the surface.


I found an alternative to the wetsuit. Kayaking apparel companies have perfected the under layer pants which are basically very thin wetsuits - they work great under the foul weather gear for cases where you know your getting really wet only down side they can be freaking hot if the temps aren't cold. I wear these with my foul weather bib on the Feva they work great even during a no so graceful jibe and crash resulting in a swimming lesson. FAR FAR superior to wearing an actual wet suit on a big boat thats for sure!


Cool I'll check them out...



I got the idea from a major Weta guy so I can't take full credit. They make tops out of the same stuff also. I think my pants are NRS brand they are pretty easy to get on unlike most wetsuits. Though your wife or girlfriend might make you wear them with nothing over the top if you suggest they wear their yoga pants around the house. Very flexible comfortable and very warm if you go swimming. The wind breaker affect of the bibs or foul weather gear keeps you plenty warm with this type of under layer.

#36 Somebody Else

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:44 PM

I ended up in the ocean in foulies once. Not good. I was in a pretty safe environment considering it was a hurricane -- warm Hawaii water, close to shore -- but I was scared for my life. I don't think I could have stayed afloat for longer than a couple of minutes, if that. That was definitely one of the many bullets I've dodged.

A PFD/harness is now part of my regular kit.

#37 dangerzone777

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:24 PM

I sail in the Pacific NW. Water is cold. I own a multihull which can be very wet at speed. I use a kayak dry suit any time it is wet or rough. I have started using it more and more when I sail on monohulls which I do quite often as well. I have been it the water numerous times with it. People like to use me for more realistic man overboard drills. It provides a lot of bouyancy. I normally have to pop the neck seal some to let some air out after hitting the water. If you sail where it is cold and srough I highly recommend getting one. Mine is a breathable one. I had a Gill non breathable for a while. I could only use it for about 4 hours. I have been in my Kotiak dry suit for over 18 hours and it fell no different that regular wet weather gear.

#38 Pierre S

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:39 PM

I have auto PFDs with built-in harness and crotch straps for all crew, and we wear them as soon as the boat leaves the marina. Swimming with foulies and boots won't get you very far, and it's better to save energy.

#39 ftbinc

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 10:54 PM


As another data point, wetsuits provide LOTS of added buoyancy. I know they are uncomfortable on a keel boat but on a windy day on my Laser it is the gear of choice as you are getting wet/swimming anyways. With my 4/5MM suit and 7MM dive boots even without my PFD I float right on the surface.


I found an alternative to the wetsuit. Kayaking apparel companies have perfected the under layer pants which are basically very thin wetsuits - they work great under the foul weather gear for cases where you know your getting really wet only down side they can be freaking hot if the temps aren't cold. I wear these with my foul weather bib on the Feva they work great even during a no so graceful jibe and crash resulting in a swimming lesson. FAR FAR superior to wearing an actual wet suit on a big boat thats for sure!


Bought a set for my wife for her birthday last year (may 24th and we are in Lake Michigan) Told me all season they were the best birthday present I could have bought her.

#40 movable ballast

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

After this weekends tragedy I bet everyone is taking a good look at the safety inventory on the boat. I know I am. I went out in 15-18knt for a single hand pleaseure sail the other Sunday, PDF was on as was the waterproof VHF clipped to the harness. I don't have jacklines on my boat as I mostly do bay races. I will have them for any offshore event. It's a pitty it takes a tragedy to make us stop and think about this stuff.

#41 haz

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

I have auto PFDs with built-in harness and crotch straps for all crew, and we wear them as soon as the boat leaves the marina. Swimming with foulies and boots won't get you very far, and it's better to save energy.

Question along the same lines .... have you ever jumped in to test the auto inflate mechanisms?

We had eight or nine of the crew on a J125 on a warm morning, waiting for wind, no foulies. We all took 'reasonable' care of our kit, but a few were, maybe, a year and a half since changing out the arming items.

Of the nine that went in, two auto inflated. Four more were eventually inflated by the 'jerk to inflate' method. The other three ... nothing. So they tried to do the manual inflation thing by blowing in the tube. One guy almost drown inhaling water and had to be helped back to the boat, the other two managed enough inflation to at least float (remember, no foulies or boots, and very calm water).

It was a real eye opener! I went back to wearing a kayak-type vest.

Everyone should try it.

Haz

#42 Asymptote

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:26 PM

I sail in the Pacific NW. Water is cold. I own a multihull which can be very wet at speed. I use a kayak dry suit any time it is wet or rough. I have started using it more and more when I sail on monohulls which I do quite often as well. I have been it the water numerous times with it. People like to use me for more realistic man overboard drills. It provides a lot of bouyancy. I normally have to pop the neck seal some to let some air out after hitting the water. If you sail where it is cold and srough I highly recommend getting one. Mine is a breathable one. I had a Gill non breathable for a while. I could only use it for about 4 hours. I have been in my Kotiak dry suit for over 18 hours and it fell no different that regular wet weather gear.


More info, please.

Brand and model and retailer?

#43 haz

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:32 PM


I sail in the Pacific NW. Water is cold. I own a multihull which can be very wet at speed. I use a kayak dry suit any time it is wet or rough. I have started using it more and more when I sail on monohulls which I do quite often as well. I have been it the water numerous times with it. People like to use me for more realistic man overboard drills. It provides a lot of bouyancy. I normally have to pop the neck seal some to let some air out after hitting the water. If you sail where it is cold and srough I highly recommend getting one. Mine is a breathable one. I had a Gill non breathable for a while. I could only use it for about 4 hours. I have been in my Kotiak dry suit for over 18 hours and it fell no different that regular wet weather gear.


More info, please.

Brand and model and retailer?

Here's a link to NRS's selection of kayaking drysuits.

#44 The Shadow

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 11:44 PM

Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.


I've been known to drag my drysuit along on early season races when the weather warrants it.


As for seaboots, you take them off and fill them with air, place the sole of them under each armpit. They offer a fair amount of buoyancy when used that way.

#45 SL33_SF

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:05 AM


I have auto PFDs with built-in harness and crotch straps for all crew, and we wear them as soon as the boat leaves the marina. Swimming with foulies and boots won't get you very far, and it's better to save energy.

Question along the same lines .... have you ever jumped in to test the auto inflate mechanisms?

... or have you tried swimming with your inflatable vest?
... in breaking waves?

It was a real eye opener! I went back to wearing a kayak-type vest.
Everyone should try it.

Same here.
My kayak vest also has nice pockets, which carry my VHF, PLB, flares, knife and whistle. I like redundancy and of course no auto-anything for safety....

#46 mustang__1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:14 AM


I sail in the Pacific NW. Water is cold. I own a multihull which can be very wet at speed. I use a kayak dry suit any time it is wet or rough. I have started using it more and more when I sail on monohulls which I do quite often as well. I have been it the water numerous times with it. People like to use me for more realistic man overboard drills. It provides a lot of bouyancy. I normally have to pop the neck seal some to let some air out after hitting the water. If you sail where it is cold and srough I highly recommend getting one. Mine is a breathable one. I had a Gill non breathable for a while. I could only use it for about 4 hours. I have been in my Kotiak dry suit for over 18 hours and it fell no different that regular wet weather gear.


More info, please.

Brand and model and retailer?


i think he meant Kokotak, not Kodiak. APS and Team1 have them. They're based out of California and make some pretty top notch stuff. The neck seal is latex instead of neoprene which some people dont like, but to me its way more comfortable than my old henri loyd drysuit was. Plus when you're hiking in a dinghy (where i use mine - havent been on a keelboat in conditions that warrant it) you dont have a chance of getting a wave down the back like you can with the neoprene seals -when they get older. I may consider selling it as the one i have is just a little too big (a medium) and getting a smaller one, or maybe a custom one (the next size down has booties that are way too small for my feet). They even have a pee zipper so you dont have to take the whole drysuit off to take a leak.

#47 Balder

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:40 AM

Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times. i am ditching the quick release and keeping a knife (with a dummy cord) very handy.
1st x - on deck in the dark, gale, 1000 miles from shore while putting on the #3. Looked down - gone

2nd x - On the bow securing the roller furling jib after jib sheets had been cut - southern straights 2010 - this was bad - very bad - but not any more so than the first one.

My plan is to remain attached to the boat (jacklines all the way inboard also)and if I do wind up in the life jacket will be on.

I figure the jacket tether is the most expensive single piece of personal gear I own. if I go in, it will be on me, not in a locker.

#48 Left Hook

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:59 AM


Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times. i am ditching the quick release and keeping a knife (with a dummy cord) very handy.
1st x - on deck in the dark, gale, 1000 miles from shore while putting on the #3. Looked down - gone

2nd x - On the bow securing the roller furling jib after jib sheets had been cut - southern straights 2010 - this was bad - very bad - but not any more so than the first one.

My plan is to remain attached to the boat (jacklines all the way inboard also)and if I do wind up in the life jacket will be on.

I figure the jacket tether is the most expensive single piece of personal gear I own. if I go in, it will be on me, not in a locker.


Sounds like you need a better snap shackle than the one you currently have.

After the Wingnuts incident there's no way in hell that I'm going to make it so that I can't release myself from the boat should things go pear shaped. A knife can take precious seconds of air to get to and then even more time to cut through the tether. That's assuming you can even get to the blade, that you didn't lose it earlier or that you won't drop it to the bottom of the ocean in your haste to get through the tether. Too many variables there.

Edit: noticed you mentioned a dummy cord. Still too many variables.

No. I'll take my chances with a well maintained and frequently checked snap shackle. Buy a good one and you shouldn't have any problem - mine's a wichard.

#49 AndreasE_NO

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:09 AM

When I was a poor student and needed money to travel to a regatta I signed up to be a human test subject for hypothermia. Seems like a bad deal, but the money was needed dearly.

They put us in PFDs and ordinary clothes and threw us in a 20C pool with a television perched from the roof. A doctor was on site and they placed temperature sensors everywhere (yes, there to) on us to monitor our body temperature. They pulled us out after we had a 2C drop from a test measurement performed the day before (when we where not stressed and hot out of fear from freezing our *ss of). They pulled me out after around 5.5 hours. It is surprising how cold you can get before it gets dangerous to your body, and it is also surprising how fast you get cold and loose co-ordnation etc. even in relatively hot water. There was also a huge difference in how people reacted, once people started shivering and could not top it, the water inside their clothes was circulated and they cooled down even faster.If we had had foul weather gear and tightly closed the cuffs this would have helped a lot.

A couple of days later we did the test in 25C water, results was the same only, shifted by approx 30 minutes.

These test were done in controlled environments with no waves, wind or other chill factors. I for one was surprised over how cold I was after just 1 hour in that water, and the amount of energy it took. Even after beer and pizza in the sauna afterwards I was still really really hungry, the main heater in my body had been running at 100%.


Main takeaway, if you feel as cold as you have never felt before, you are only halfway to hypothermia, and even if you have hypotermia your temeperature can still drop several degrees before it gets life treating. If you are in the blue and waiting for rescue; never give up

A

#50 mustang__1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:09 AM



Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times. i am ditching the quick release and keeping a knife (with a dummy cord) very handy.
1st x - on deck in the dark, gale, 1000 miles from shore while putting on the #3. Looked down - gone

2nd x - On the bow securing the roller furling jib after jib sheets had been cut - southern straights 2010 - this was bad - very bad - but not any more so than the first one.

My plan is to remain attached to the boat (jacklines all the way inboard also)and if I do wind up in the life jacket will be on.

I figure the jacket tether is the most expensive single piece of personal gear I own. if I go in, it will be on me, not in a locker.


Sounds like you need a better snap shackle than the one you currently have.

After the Wingnuts incident there's no way in hell that I'm going to make it so that I can't release myself from the boat should things go pear shaped. A knife can take precious seconds of air to get to and then even more time to cut through the tether. That's assuming you can even get to the blade, that you didn't lose it earlier or that you won't drop it to the bottom of the ocean in your haste to get through the tether. Too many variables there.

Edit: noticed you mentioned a dummy cord. Still too many variables.

No. I'll take my chances with a well maintained and frequently checked snap shackle. Buy a good one and you shouldn't have any problem - mine's a wichard.


i think the integraded spinlock knife is tied to the jacket so you dont have to worry about dropping it - but theres no way in hell i would want to rely on that over the simplicity of pulling the trip cord.

#51 Pete M

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:15 AM

re swimming in boots and foulies

not like the farallones incident - with breaking swells, a rocky lee shore, and high wind

but i would have thought we learned this lesson from the Larry Klein incident 20 years ago

the two people that could swim was my pal enzenberger and dawn Ryley's dad - they were wearing shorts - all others were wearing foulies

#52 bwana

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:20 AM

re swimming in boots and foulies

not like the farallones incident - with breaking swells, a rocky lee shore, and high wind

but i would have thought we learned this lesson from the Larry Klein incident 20 years ago

the two people that could swim was my pal enzenberger and dawn Ryley's dad - they were wearing shorts - all others were wearing foulies


that's when i learned my lesson. ditched the boots and never left the dock without a pfd on again. and back then, it was considered 'uncool'.

#53 SL33_SF

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:24 AM

my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times.

The kitesurfers started with sailing type snap shakles on the kite quick-releases (to avoid lofting).
Not only do the sailing snap shackles accidentally come undone, they can also be difficult or impossible to release under load, particularly when the load is not perpendicular to the harness.
Many fatalities later, kitesurfing now has safe, simple, cheap and very functional quick releases.

#54 mustang__1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:34 AM

the last thread on tethers, great info here from WHL and others: Tethers

#55 phillysailor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:32 AM


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times.

The kitesurfers started with sailing type snap shakles on the kite quick-releases (to avoid lofting).
Not only do the sailing snap shackles accidentally come undone, they can also be difficult or impossible to release under load, particularly when the load is not perpendicular to the harness.
Many fatalities later, kitesurfing now has safe, simple, cheap and very functional quick releases.




West Marine, Musto, Wichard, etc. ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION? We need better tethers, and lifejackets with improved storage capability. My Kokotat life jacket is pretty good, but I beefed up storage with military-grade web gear. I also purchased the optional camel-back type water pack, which is really, really handy.

The other thing to think about, is that what you go over with, is all you get to take with you. In the Everglades Challenge, you are expected to create a hypothermia kit, a signal pack & a med kit and carry it on your lifejacket. This is in addition to a PFD light, a knife, and (in future races) a PLB. Here is ours.


My wife and I recently upgraded to kayaking semi-drysuits, which have the neoprene neck instead of a latex seal. It was comfortable in 40 degree weather with a hat and wicking long underwear, and in the 70's with just wicking long underwear (as long as you are getting splashed occasionally). Jump in the water, walk around, move an anchor... stay dry and comfortable. If it is comfortable, you will wear it more often. Very good gear, easily worth the $.

Attached File  Life Jacket.jpg   19.28K   37 downloads

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#56 jetboy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:45 AM

Out of curiosity, why don't more large boat sailers wear wetsuits? Or even dry suits for heavy weather? I understand if you haven't worn a wetsuit recently, but newer high stretch suits are really comfortable. They will keep you warm in the heaviest of weather. They'll be much less likely to become entangled on anything. And they are naturally buoyant - very easy to swim in. Lots of small boat and cat sailers wear them when being in the water is likely.

You could even build a two piece suit that's a bit looser, but out of neoprene with a soft liner.

Anyway, why not wear something like that?

#57 mustang__1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:50 AM

Out of curiosity, why don't more large boat sailers wear wetsuits? Or even dry suits for heavy weather? I understand if you haven't worn a wetsuit recently, but newer high stretch suits are really comfortable. They will keep you warm in the heaviest of weather. They'll be much less likely to become entangled on anything. And they are naturally buoyant - very easy to swim in. Lots of small boat and cat sailers wear them when being in the water is likely.

You could even build a two piece suit that's a bit looser, but out of neoprene with a soft liner.

Anyway, why not wear something like that?


generally wetsuits are better at keeping you warm when you're already wet. i have a modern wetsuit which i wear when i sail 29er's, but for collegiate sailing and keelboats i wear foulies or a drysuit. way more comfortable. and warm.

#58 Amati

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:08 AM

If you sail a big boat like a dinghy, dress like a dinghy sailor. If you sail a big boat like it's a windsurfer, dress like a windsurfer.

Not perfect, but a rule of thumb. I was sailing my Finn in 1974 wearing a full 2 piece 1/4" neoprene diving suit. I walked funny, but the bailers didn't leave me bleeding after rolling under the boom. Farmer johns are underrated, and you can live in them pretty easily for long periods. A big sweater can be surprisingly warm in 49 degree water. But hypothermia will get you. There was one dinghy race in Seattle in January (mid 70's) that ended with a 1 mile beat into a snowstorm in 20-30k. Hilarious, if you get my drift. 1 hour in the UW yacht club showers hardly made a dent.

And that was with my diving suit on.

But dry suits.... Mmmmmmmmmmm.........

Paul

#59 M48

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:27 AM

The life line broke and I was in the water falling in backwards. I was wearing (foamy) dinghy boots, "sailing" shorts with foam ass pads and a fuzzy top. Immediately, I began to think about removing the booties, etc. However, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the foam in the shorts and the booties were positive flotation; I was bouyant-no problem. I now calmly awaited the return of the boat. This attire is not a substitute for PFD, but nevertheless an interesting discovery.

#60 soling2003

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:45 AM

Here in the PNW we always have cold water. Even as kids we always wore our life jackets. they didn't have many back then that were US CG approved, but the old Elvstrom worked great anyway. My kids grew up always wearing theirs whenever on deck too.

On a side note, our fire station went to the local pool to test swimming in firefighter bunking gear and masks. They would hold a lot of air, not too bad to slowly swim in. And with your mask on, you could actually go down a few feet, but you weighed another 60 lbs at least trying to get out of the water. Same thing sailing. Trying to get a wet sailor, even if he is helping, is nearly impossible on a boat without swim step or ladder.

#61 Ishmael

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:47 AM

The life line broke and I was in the water falling in backwards. I was wearing (foamy) dinghy boots, "sailing" shorts with foam ass pads and a fuzzy top. Immediately, I began to think about removing the booties, etc. However, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the foam in the shorts and the booties were positive flotation; I was bouyant-no problem. I now calmly awaited the return of the boat. This attire is not a substitute for PFD, but nevertheless an interesting discovery.


Obviously not in cold, breaking, or shark-infested water. I only score 2 out of 3 and I stay out of that frigid shit. I have abysmal safety habits while underway and it's a miracle I'm still alive.

#62 Damaged Goods

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:51 AM

Did indeed. One fine clear winter's day 20 year' ago, I was all a'dressed in full foulies and booties, no lifejacket and stepped from the hard onto me wee little 420, all by me lonesome. Before ye could say WTF! we went straight to the bottom, alone. Up we popped, like a drowning rat, scrambling for the board of the 420 and willed ourselves back on board. Whole event took less than a minute, which is about how much longer we owned the 420 before a'saleing her before the days of Craigslist. Unfortunately, me friends, for you, I'm still here to tell you all about it....

#63 WHL

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:06 AM


Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times. i am ditching the quick release and keeping a knife (with a dummy cord) very handy.
1st x - on deck in the dark, gale, 1000 miles from shore while putting on the #3. Looked down - gone

2nd x - On the bow securing the roller furling jib after jib sheets had been cut - southern straights 2010 - this was bad - very bad - but not any more so than the first one.

My plan is to remain attached to the boat (jacklines all the way inboard also)and if I do wind up in the life jacket will be on.

I figure the jacket tether is the most expensive single piece of personal gear I own. if I go in, it will be on me, not in a locker.


Your snap shackle and its trip are perhaps the problem and not the concept of using a quick release. I use a Tylaska cowhitched to a Spinlock double tether and have never had a problem. There is no way you can realistically expect to cut yourself free if you're getting towed through the water.... imagine... you're doing 10 knots... dragged along in the water on the leeside, boat wake covering your head, body getting buffeted around.. PFD possibly inflated, and you're going to try and get a knife out and cut the tether, and meanwhile avoid popping the PFD bladder, or yourself ... riiiight....

Here's my latest version of the tether, quick release and trip line, with an additional ring to stow the second tether so that you don't stow the second one on the harness because that defeats the object of the quick release.

#64 Ozee Adventure

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:03 AM

When I was a poor student and needed money to travel to a regatta I signed up to be a human test subject for hypothermia. Seems like a bad deal, but the money was needed dearly.

They put us in PFDs and ordinary clothes and threw us in a 20C pool with a television perched from the roof. A doctor was on site and they placed temperature sensors everywhere (yes, there to) on us to monitor our body temperature. They pulled us out after we had a 2C drop from a test measurement performed the day before (when we where not stressed and hot out of fear from freezing our *ss of). They pulled me out after around 5.5 hours. It is surprising how cold you can get before it gets dangerous to your body, and it is also surprising how fast you get cold and loose co-ordnation etc. even in relatively hot water. There was also a huge difference in how people reacted, once people started shivering and could not top it, the water inside their clothes was circulated and they cooled down even faster.If we had had foul weather gear and tightly closed the cuffs this would have helped a lot.

A couple of days later we did the test in 25C water, results was the same only, shifted by approx 30 minutes.

These test were done in controlled environments with no waves, wind or other chill factors. I for one was surprised over how cold I was after just 1 hour in that water, and the amount of energy it took. Even after beer and pizza in the sauna afterwards I was still really really hungry, the main heater in my body had been running at 100%.


Main takeaway, if you feel as cold as you have never felt before, you are only halfway to hypothermia, and even if you have hypotermia your temeperature can still drop several degrees before it gets life treating. If you are in the blue and waiting for rescue; never give up

A

Raced up the side of Taiwan recently - I have never been in weather that cold before. the surprise for me was that the cold hurt - I didn't know that.
Did it hurt in the pool?

#65 Tucky

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 01:20 PM


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times.

The kitesurfers started with sailing type snap shakles on the kite quick-releases (to avoid lofting).
Not only do the sailing snap shackles accidentally come undone, they can also be difficult or impossible to release under load, particularly when the load is not perpendicular to the harness.
Many fatalities later, kitesurfing now has safe, simple, cheap and very functional quick releases.


This really looks like progress to me. Is there a detent of some kind that makes it a little difficult to open- I see my kit having many things close to the release that could snag and open it, unlike the kite situation where it looks all by itself.

Anything is better than a knife, especially if the lifejacket has inflated.




#66 AndreasE_NO

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 02:58 PM

the surprise for me was that the cold hurt - I didn't know that.
Did it hurt in the pool?


Yes, but I managed to keep it semi-under control and the only pain was in my hand and feet. Not the same pain as frost bite, but about as strong. However one of the girls was pulled out at ~3.5 hours crying if I recall correctly. She was not feeling to well.


BTW: we got some questions from the last movie we saw when we left the pool, nobody got more than 50% correct.

#67 jetboy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:54 PM


Out of curiosity, why don't more large boat sailers wear wetsuits? Or even dry suits for heavy weather? I understand if you haven't worn a wetsuit recently, but newer high stretch suits are really comfortable. They will keep you warm in the heaviest of weather. They'll be much less likely to become entangled on anything. And they are naturally buoyant - very easy to swim in. Lots of small boat and cat sailers wear them when being in the water is likely.

You could even build a two piece suit that's a bit looser, but out of neoprene with a soft liner.

Anyway, why not wear something like that?


generally wetsuits are better at keeping you warm when you're already wet. i have a modern wetsuit which i wear when i sail 29er's, but for collegiate sailing and keelboats i wear foulies or a drysuit. way more comfortable. and warm.


I would think something like a farmer john bottoms and a drytop would be a good choice if you wanted to be a bit warmer on the boat. I kayak in pretty damned cold water sometimes. I have water splashing over me regularly with a drytop and I'm warm enough. I'd think that would make a good option as well. It seems like most foulies are just glorified rain coats and pants. Sure they work as long as your on the boat, but they are both more cumbersome on deck, and less safe in the water. Why not look to other more "wet" sports and use gear developed by other sports that are intended to be good for both dry and warm comfort as well as swimming in cold water?

I'm just failing to see why traditional foulies and rubber boots would hold any advantage in any situation, other than that they are traditional.

#68 mustang__1

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:06 PM

because they're warm and comfortable. wetsuits are designed to work in the water. I've seen people wear wetgear under leaky foulies, but in any other case its just way more comfortable to wear the stuff designed for the stuff that youre doing. being hot and sweaty in a wetsuit with it sticking to your back and balls every time you move is just unpleasent - at least in a dinghy you can jump in. Being cold in a wetsuit because you cant layer effectively is also pretty miserable - and its still sticking to you with every movement. in its designed environment i prefer a wetsuit, and have used them in pretty warm weather in lieu of using board shorts etc because i like the padding a wetsuit offers....but it doesnt have a place on keelboats.

#69 Port Tack Approach

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:16 PM



Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times. i am ditching the quick release and keeping a knife (with a dummy cord) very handy.
1st x - on deck in the dark, gale, 1000 miles from shore while putting on the #3. Looked down - gone

2nd x - On the bow securing the roller furling jib after jib sheets had been cut - southern straights 2010 - this was bad - very bad - but not any more so than the first one.

My plan is to remain attached to the boat (jacklines all the way inboard also)and if I do wind up in the life jacket will be on.

I figure the jacket tether is the most expensive single piece of personal gear I own. if I go in, it will be on me, not in a locker.


Your snap shackle and its trip are perhaps the problem and not the concept of using a quick release. I use a Tylaska cowhitched to a Spinlock double tether and have never had a problem. There is no way you can realistically expect to cut yourself free if you're getting towed through the water.... imagine... you're doing 10 knots... dragged along in the water on the leeside, boat wake covering your head, body getting buffeted around.. PFD possibly inflated, and you're going to try and get a knife out and cut the tether, and meanwhile avoid popping the PFD bladder, or yourself ... riiiight....

Here's my latest version of the tether, quick release and trip line, with an additional ring to stow the second tether so that you don't stow the second one on the harness because that defeats the object of the quick release.

I had never given a moments thought to where the second tether was clipped as I only recently picked up a 3 pointer and had been using a 2 point tether. Thanks for posting that. I am going to rig something the the bale on the snap shackle on my Winchard

#70 Bulbhunter

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:21 PM



Out of curiosity, why don't more large boat sailers wear wetsuits? Or even dry suits for heavy weather? I understand if you haven't worn a wetsuit recently, but newer high stretch suits are really comfortable. They will keep you warm in the heaviest of weather. They'll be much less likely to become entangled on anything. And they are naturally buoyant - very easy to swim in. Lots of small boat and cat sailers wear them when being in the water is likely.

You could even build a two piece suit that's a bit looser, but out of neoprene with a soft liner.

Anyway, why not wear something like that?


generally wetsuits are better at keeping you warm when you're already wet. i have a modern wetsuit which i wear when i sail 29er's, but for collegiate sailing and keelboats i wear foulies or a drysuit. way more comfortable. and warm.


I would think something like a farmer john bottoms and a drytop would be a good choice if you wanted to be a bit warmer on the boat. I kayak in pretty damned cold water sometimes. I have water splashing over me regularly with a drytop and I'm warm enough. I'd think that would make a good option as well. It seems like most foulies are just glorified rain coats and pants. Sure they work as long as your on the boat, but they are both more cumbersome on deck, and less safe in the water. Why not look to other more "wet" sports and use gear developed by other sports that are intended to be good for both dry and warm comfort as well as swimming in cold water?

I'm just failing to see why traditional foulies and rubber boots would hold any advantage in any situation, other than that they are traditional.


Back in 2000 I did the PAC Cup nearly all the veterans wore paddle jacket spray tops and big foul weather gear bottoms. For dinghy sailing my all time favorite was farmer john wetsuit with a basic spray top then maybe some shorts with hiking pads etc. Though farmer john wetsuits became rare I bought mine as a cast off year old model for $100 in Santa Cruz. Haven't seen any farmer johns made for a long time that were just basic nothing special suits that aren't plastered with some huge name brand for several hundred bucks. Which case $100 for kayak wet gear for the bottom half and some tech gear layers for the top half under foulies have turned out to be very comfortable - economical flexible enough for small boat use and big boat use.

#71 Pierre S

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:21 PM


I have auto PFDs with built-in harness and crotch straps for all crew, and we wear them as soon as the boat leaves the marina. Swimming with foulies and boots won't get you very far, and it's better to save energy.

Question along the same lines .... have you ever jumped in to test the auto inflate mechanisms?

We had eight or nine of the crew on a J125 on a warm morning, waiting for wind, no foulies. We all took 'reasonable' care of our kit, but a few were, maybe, a year and a half since changing out the arming items.

Of the nine that went in, two auto inflated. Four more were eventually inflated by the 'jerk to inflate' method. The other three ... nothing. So they tried to do the manual inflation thing by blowing in the tube. One guy almost drown inhaling water and had to be helped back to the boat, the other two managed enough inflation to at least float (remember, no foulies or boots, and very calm water).

It was a real eye opener! I went back to wearing a kayak-type vest.

Everyone should try it.

Haz


Yes, I have once (in warm water!) as I was a bit suspicious about how quickly these salt pastilles really dissolve, and it worked surprisingly quickly.

I get all jackets serviced by the approved dealer every year. Probably overkill, but as somebody else said the people on the boat are friends, some are sons of friends etc. Jack lines (flat webbing) are changed every three years because of UV degradation.

#72 blackjenner

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 06:12 PM

I am buying jacklines to-fucking-day. :(


This is exactly why I put jacklines on Brigadoon.

Here is the story that I published about that decision.

http://ourfreedompro...-damn-boat.html

Really, the secret to survival is staying on the damn boat. Our current rule is, if we go forward alone (no one else on deck) or are in anything but the calmest water, we clip in. I did it last weekend. It's a but of a pain in the ass but, staying on the boat really makes sense.

At the same time, when underway, we *always* wear PFDs when underway and outside the cabin. Any guest on Brigadoon *always* wears a PFD while we are underway. *Always*.

I'd like to survive this little adventure we call life as possible. Jacklines and PFDs increase the chance of that.

#73 Icedtea

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

Interesting thread with some very good points raised.

I wear a kayak style PFD when sailing anything, the only time I've worn an auto-inflate lifejacket I just couldn't put too much faith in it.
I had to stay for a good bit in the water last summer instructing, and what I discovered was my fleece-lined gill jacket isn't the best, the legs are ok and my boots are the best things I've ever bought.

I have Aigle Isotherm boots, look like glorified farmer wellies but are incredibly warm. They're neoprene lined so thin socks are enough in almost anything.


The Boots


#74 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:59 PM

I'm just failing to see why traditional foulies and rubber boots would hold any advantage in any situation, other than that they are traditional.


For a day's sail, perhaps a wetsuit can work.
A full day in a wetsuit leaves you sweaty and smelly and often, chafing.
I have worn good quality foulies over the proper layers for 4-5 days, in cold or wet or cold and wet weather, day and night, remaining comfy. That's why.
As for boots, nothing beats warm dry feet. Miserable to have wet feet for days.

#75 WHL

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:20 AM

This ABC clip was posted in the Farllones tragedy topic. It's no wonder the press and some public are misinformed about the use of safety gear and tethers.. check out the clip at 1:39. Someone at West Marine needs to train their staff, not only in the correct use of gear, but to be extra diligent when talking to the media. It's particularly important at times like this when there's a frenzy of ignorant posting and knee jerk reaction in the media, that the correct information is relayed. If they can't do that as a company they should stay out of it or have a trained spokesperson.

The West Marine sales person is not only demonstrating a tether that is not recommended by the OSR, and neither by the US Sailing Prescriptions, (it's not a gated snaphook), but he's demonstrating attaching it to the D Ring on the harness the wrong way round. Must have been either ignorant or too lazy to take the elastic band off the roll and demonstrate it properly. Pitiful.

#76 mustang__1

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:03 AM



Having been in the water with normal foulies on, I decided to get a drysuit. Except for inshore day racing, it's always in my gear bag for use when the weather gets nasty. A safety tether (preferably a double with quick release) and harness is another piece of gear that needs to be high on the list for use when conditions warrant.


my quick release has come undone (and unnoticed) 3x - and of course all 3 were the worst possible times. i am ditching the quick release and keeping a knife (with a dummy cord) very handy.
1st x - on deck in the dark, gale, 1000 miles from shore while putting on the #3. Looked down - gone

2nd x - On the bow securing the roller furling jib after jib sheets had been cut - southern straights 2010 - this was bad - very bad - but not any more so than the first one.

My plan is to remain attached to the boat (jacklines all the way inboard also)and if I do wind up in the life jacket will be on.

I figure the jacket tether is the most expensive single piece of personal gear I own. if I go in, it will be on me, not in a locker.


Your snap shackle and its trip are perhaps the problem and not the concept of using a quick release. I use a Tylaska cowhitched to a Spinlock double tether and have never had a problem. There is no way you can realistically expect to cut yourself free if you're getting towed through the water.... imagine... you're doing 10 knots... dragged along in the water on the leeside, boat wake covering your head, body getting buffeted around.. PFD possibly inflated, and you're going to try and get a knife out and cut the tether, and meanwhile avoid popping the PFD bladder, or yourself ... riiiight....

Here's my latest version of the tether, quick release and trip line, with an additional ring to stow the second tether so that you don't stow the second one on the harness because that defeats the object of the quick release.


one thing i was thing ive been thinking about with your system is the danger of the trigger accidentally getting triggered if the trip line gets snagged etc, so i came up with this idea using a borrowed sparcraft shackle and a blinds cord, and then a hair scrunchie i borrowed from a friend..... In real life i think i would use like 1/8dynema tied in a big stopper night, dead ended around the bail. For now im still using a wichard snap shackle which we estimated could be released at about 100lbs of pulling and probably more by having someone pull it on real hard while the other end was dead-ended.

Posted Image

#77 Trovo

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:20 AM

two words: im possible. :P

#78 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 09:52 PM

one thing i was thing ive been thinking about with your system is the danger of the trigger accidentally getting triggered if the trip line gets snagged etc, so i came up with this idea using a borrowed sparcraft shackle and a blinds cord,


No.
Those plastic things are FAR more likely to catch on something. And WTF is up with all that lashing and crap?

THIS in my opinion is the best way to go - simple, reliable, easy to grab and won't catch on things.
Posted Image

#79 mustang__1

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 10:48 PM


one thing i was thing ive been thinking about with your system is the danger of the trigger accidentally getting triggered if the trip line gets snagged etc, so i came up with this idea using a borrowed sparcraft shackle and a blinds cord,


No.
Those plastic things are FAR more likely to catch on something. And WTF is up with all that lashing and crap?

THIS in my opinion is the best way to go - simple, reliable, easy to grab and won't catch on things.
Posted Image


I was simply experimenting with using a band to hold the trip line well away from the trigger. In real life it'd be some dynema, not the cord to the blinds....

#80 JimB

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 12:35 AM

I used to be a lifeguard when I was a teenager. At one time I believed there was no possible way I could drown. I was a fish. One day as an adult back in my Laser sailing days, I almost drown in a lake ( slough) no more that 8 ft deep with no waves. I did not like wet suits so I always wore fleece under my rain gear on cold days, also dinghy boots. This day I ended up forgetting to put on my life jacket due to some odd circumstance. Any way I tipped the boat over on my way to the start line. I went under but to my surprise I was not coming up. I quickly realized my problem. No farking lifejacket. I had to swim for all I was worth to get back to the surface. I barley made it back to my boat which by the time I surfaced was drifting away. I now own a B25. My life jacket now comes on any time I am wearing more than shorts and t-shirt. I do not let my crew go without lifejackets if I have mine on. Man I would have been embarrassed if I had to explain at the pearly gates how I managed to drown in a shallow slough after being a lifeguard at 16 yrs old.

#81 javahead

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:38 PM

Pool test w/ foulies (unofficial) showed:
* If you must swim,don't do the crawl, i.e swim with arms out of the water. Keep arms in the water, like a breast stroke. MUCH less tiring.
* If you don't use crotch straps on non-inflating life jackets, put them under your foulie jacket. We noticed you floated about 2" higher than if worn outside your foulies.

#82 Somebody Else

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:36 PM

i think he meant Kokotak, not Kodiak. APS and Team1 have them.

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#83 DA-WOODY

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:24 PM

Every Day I learn another reason to be in DAGO B)

#84 mustang__1

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:05 PM

i think he meant Kokotak, not Kodiak. APS and Team1 have them.

Kokatat


oh four too...

#85 peterchech

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:59 AM

Idk nobody in my phrf fleet wears PDFs at all. The peer pressure is on when ur the only one. I always take one with me on the boat but only wear it in the rough stuff. Then everyone wishes they had brought theres :)

My experience is that wetsuits don't provide much flotation actually. I almost drowned in march water temps a few years ago with one on. Cold shock hasn't been mentioned here but it's real. I capsized a dinghy with little flotation. Felt like I got punched in the chest once I came up even though I had the wetsuit on. I caught my breath and tried righting the boat but couldn't do it. It was becoming harder and harder to swim as the minutes ticked by. Judgment and coordination start getting lost. I finally realized I should put on that pfd which I had clipped to the boat just to satisfy cg regs. My fingers were too numb to open the snap. I had a knife which I opened with my teeth and cut the line it was strapped to. I somehow got the clip open with my teeth and put it on. Well cg regs saved my life because I instantly felt like I could breath again, the difficulty breathing wen away. Within seconds I was also feeling much warmer. I was able to then swim to shore thank god. It took a near death experience to teach me that it doesn't matter how well u swim, PDFs save lives.




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