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Wide-open discussion of the loss of Low Speed Chase


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#1 Bob W

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:11 PM

How about everyone put their opinions, bs, speculations, etc, here, and leave the other forum for those who want to share their grief together--ok?

I'll start off: Navas, your plug for the sfgate story that you happened to opine in was totally self-serving and also gives a distorted view of offshore racing to a generally uninformed public via a almost criminally wreckless media. How 'bout you make sure folks know its just your opinion, huh?

As an example of the media's distortions, now it seems you won a full-crewed Farallones race all by your ownsey. Last I checked, you don't even own a boat.

Bob Walden

#2 NoStrings

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:16 PM

Well well well, John Navas patting himself on the back. How fucking unique. Johns major claim to fame was teaching the owner of Phantom Mist how to sail. What mad skills. Fucking wanker.

#3 unShirley

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:24 PM

How about everyone put their opinions, bs, speculations, etc, here, and leave the other forum for those who want to share their grief together--ok?



It seems that LSC was too close to the island. All serious racers try to round the mark as close as possible, But, this time it proved to be fatal.

#4 TheFlash

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:29 PM

My understanding from a quote out of SFYC is that he followed another's track. Wrong place at the wrong time. Sneaker wave, something doubling up, hard to say. Pretty sure that tethers wouldn't have helped.

It's clear from a John note on the SFSailing email list that he was right there watching them. He had first hand knowledge for sure.

#5 krispy kreme

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:34 PM

Just read this in the gate, still clearing my throat of the little bit of upchuck.

Saturday's conditions were choppy but not unusual for the area. Most boats in the Farallones race stay at least a few hundred yards from the islands, but some skirt closer to save time, said John Navas of Morgan Hill, who won the race two years ago.


'Very unpredictable'
"It's extremely dangerous, but a lot of boats do it," Navas said. "The problem is that, close to the islands, the waves build rapidly and steeply and very suddenly. It can be very unpredictable."

Although all the sailors who were swept overboard were wearing life jackets, none was tethered. The Coast Guard makes tethers optional in races such as Saturday's.

Some local sailors said tethers - ropes linking a sailor to the boat - can save lives in high seas. But others said they can also drag an overboard sailor under the boat.

"Almost all race boats are pretty lax about tethers," Navas said. "I'm not sure if these guys being tethered would have prevented anything."

Tell us John which was your boat in the race 2 years ago? Emily Carr? Summer Moon? Joyride? Ohana?

http://www.yra.org/OYRA/docs/Results/OYRA_farallones_2010_results.htm




#6 jrpytlak

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

From the first hand account I heard from one of the Cal40's is that LSC wasn't any closer than we were. I'm sure we'll all think twice about how close we are next time. Side note, none of us were tethered on our boat either. I have mixed feelings about that though.

#7 oceanracer

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

Tethers are made with a quick release. Bottom line is that the boat is still there, but bodies are not. Wear your tether.

#8 Asymptote

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:03 PM

That sort of press-posing is indeed painful to read.

Also painful are comments like Post #74, where it is suggested that the poster would "drop sails and start the momo". Beyond being clueless about what was reasonable and effective rendering of assistance out there, is this guy too cool or what? "Momo?" Wears his topsiders to the opera, does he?

If any of my crew suggested starting the "momo" in a man overboard situation, I think I'd be very tempted to cut his/her tether...when we got back on shore.

#9 TheFlash

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:04 PM

We are almost always tethered out there - but imagine a situation where the boat gets rolled, tethers might be a problem. I do have the "quick release" sort of tether. Wasn't it Rambler that recently lost it's keel, and none of the guys were tethered in (fortunately)?

#10 another 505 sailor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:08 PM

We are almost always tethered out there - but imagine a situation where the boat gets rolled, tethers might be a problem. I do have the "quick release" sort of tether. Wasn't it Rambler that recently lost it's keel, and none of the guys were tethered in (fortunately)?


The guy tangled in rigging survived. Tethers would not have prevented getting hit by the waves, but they would likely increase one's chance for survival in this case.
Like in a car, sometimes you want to be thrown clear. But I'll take my chances with the seatbelt.

#11 walterbshaffer

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:14 PM

Trying to fit it all together: LSC had rounded to starboard and was starting to reach off downwind past/on the NW side of the island when a wave broke slightly aft of the port beam and took some of the crew off. Do I have that right?

#12 SemiSalt

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:14 PM

As an east coast guy, I wonder how the death and destruction totals for races to the Farallones compare to the totals (all years) for the Bermuda Race, Vineyard Race, Annapolis-Newport, etc.

#13 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:18 PM

Seems like they got closer to the rocks because they were trying to save the crew in the water. Might not have been that close if they'd been tethered. Anybody know how long after the first wave the second one hit? And how much closer to the island they were?

#14 amolitor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:29 PM

Tethers, no tethers, whatever. I think that:

- The Gulf of the Farallons is an extremely dangerous patch of water
- We're very close, in terms of our safety practices, to the irreducible minimum rate of fatalities
- .. and therefore finding fault with accident victims mostly reinforces a false sense of security

If we go down the path of 'they should have been tethered' then we'll tend to think 'If only I stay tethered, I will be safe' which is simply false. The Gulf is just plain very goddamned dangerous.

That said, I stay tethered offshore, racing or not.

#15 coyotepup

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:33 PM

I'll start off: Navas, your plug for the sfgate story that you happened to opine in was totally self-serving and also gives a distorted view of offshore racing to a generally uninformed public via a almost criminally wreckless media.

It sucks ass that 95% of news media coverage of sailing is the result of a death. I don't think the general public at large has a negative view of sailing but unfortunately there's a cadre of shitty people who sit around all day cramming cheezy poofs into their face and thinking that everything even remotely dangerous ought to be outlawed - and a few of them certainly showed up in the comment section of the article. These are the same people who think it's mean to play tag at recess. Their paranoia is fed by the media, and worst of all, they have just as much of a vote as the rest of us.

I've never sailed on the west coast let alone seen the Farallones or know those waters, so I have absolutely no comment on whether Low Speed Chase was too close to the rocks in the first place. I have to assume they were doing nothing more dangerous than any other skipper would, although I have seen some suggesting they should never have been in as close as they were. IMO anyone who blames the wreck on "pilot error" without having seen it firsthand is the same as the above uninformed troglodytes.

I think it's tragically ironic that last summer's Wingnuts incident "raised questions" about the use of tethers and whether people were being too heavy-handed on mandating their use etc etc (witness the semi-yellow journalism at the beginning of this article) and this year's season kicks off with a tragic incident tailor-made for tethers of any kind, and the yellow journalism is going the other way and "suggesting" that the CG and race organizers are delinquent in not requiring them. When I got a tether and harness as a birthday present in preparation for my first PH-Mac I wondered what the hell, and I don't think that tether and harness left my bag the whole race. (In my defense, it was a really flat race, plus I was younger and dumber.) These days, at night, or in seas, or if seas look like they're on the way, or whether I'm riding the rail or working on the low side, TETHER IN. Tether first, THEN whatever I went down there to do. I didn't need this tragedy to tell me that, but it's certainly a helpful reminder. I don't know which race boats Navas means when he says everyone's being lax about tethers, but he certainly doesn't mean the boat I sailed on in Long Island Sound and he DEFINITELY isn't referring to my Michigan ride.

#16 TheFlash

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:38 PM

Nor is John referring to any vessel I sail on "out there" but John is everywhere, and sees everything.

#17 JustDroppingBy

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:43 PM

As an east coast guy, I wonder how the death and destruction totals for races to the Farallones compare to the totals (all years) for the Bermuda Race, Vineyard Race, Annapolis-Newport, etc.

I believe there has not been a death in Crewed Farallones before this. SFYC runs the race and had not suffered a fatality in any of their events until now. SH and DH are run by two other organizations in the Bay and at least the DH has had fatalities in the past.

#18 DarthSailor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:47 PM

That sort of press-posing is indeed painful to read.

Also painful are comments like Post #74, where it is suggested that the poster would "drop sails and start the momo". Beyond being clueless about what was reasonable and effective rendering of assistance out there, is this guy too cool or what? "Momo?" Wears his topsiders to the opera, does he?

If any of my crew suggested starting the "momo" in a man overboard situation, I think I'd be very tempted to cut his/her tether...when we got back on shore.


So you're saying trying to motor towards a hazard in omni-directional 15ft chop is a bad idea?

I agree that mr. momo is a clueless ass hat. In another race years ago in similar conditions (if not location) a boat tried motoring to retrieve a someone overboard and not only were they unsuccessful but they ended up on the hard hiding under a sail overnight until rescued. To a person they will tell that trying the motor was a mistake and they are fortunate to be alive today. Their lee shore was much more forgiving than those rocks off San Fran.

#19 Black Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 08:57 PM

Really? This thread is wrong and too early. Wait for the recovery phase to be over. Wait for the Coast Guard report.

You should have nothing to say except how humbled we are, how we miss our lost friends and family and how we wish they were here.



#20 Bulbhunter

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:05 PM

I've been out there many times with tether and without. I find that my more recent trips the past few years I often am the only one with my tether on and in use in most cases. Couple of reasons for that. A few years ago we had a Olson 40 washed over flushed the double handed crew right out of the boat, a very good friend and very experienced sailor has had his cockpit filled by a wave that crushed and smashed out the faces of various gauges mounted in the bulkhead, more recent years he had a wave sweep the entire length of the boat from the side ripping the jib out of the foil and tearing the bottom of his main and damaging the boom that was on a Olson 34 which isn't a light weight or heavy boat its a pretty decent rig for foul conditions.

Last of all on a very mellow sunny day I was actually nailed by two stupid waves that came together right where I was sitting on the rail. It was like having someone set off a fire hydrant right under my ass it blew me right off the rail and skidding across the foredeck. Not a single other person was even slightly affected by it just me! My harness gets used now when I do that race.

Everyone has a choice as to what they want to do regarding safety gear and clipping in etc. The way I see it we have seen far far plenty evidence that even just a mile outside the Gate on a fairly decent day you can be faced with lots of green water washing over the boat and trying to rip you free of it.

Rounding the rock pile is a funny thing my first few times after beating for hours to get out and around the thing - its amazing how quickly you can think whew we just started the turn every one can relax and start thinking of the easy ride home. Later after having more than a few trips out there I realize that making the turn was really the worst time to be letting up your guard and getting lax on thinking through what needs to be happening and your safety gear given how mixed up and unpredictable the wave action gets out there around the rock pile.


This whole event really makes me sad - I have done foredeck in a number of events over the years where we were head to head swapping tacks and doing everything we could sort out to find an edge on those guys and beat them to the finish. What happened to them could have easily been us caught in a bad way by a wave that just has every intention to mess you up. I feel horrible for the owner and family left with missing loved ones and its a very good idea for the SF sailing community to discuss our safety efforts and boat practices so we all feel that we are doing the best we can to have fun, sail fast and not leave loved one's with missing family. My tether will be used even more so than it already is and the thread about Personal EPIRB is interesting I really Really like the idea of the AIS personal locator integration seems like that would give the fastest and largest number of boats in a given area the quickest location for folks who have gone swimming vs waiting for a service to pin point the signal and route that to CG etc. The cold water factor is a major issue for us we all know that so time counts. I'll be getting one when I start doing ocean racing again.

#21 Raked aft \\

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:17 PM

This was mentioned in the other thread, but I'll repeat here.

I'm a kiter and the modern "tether" system currently used for kiting bars is a two stage system. In cases of trouble you trip a quick release, which opens a chicken loop attaching the kite to your harness. It is designed to totally depower the kite and drop it to the water. You are still attached to the kite by a leash, which after sorted out you can haul back in and re-engage your chicken loop and kite away.

If for what ever reason you are still in trouble, the leash has a quick release to basically detach yourself completely from the kite and it go bye bye.

If I were to design a multi purpose off shore tether system it would have those features. They are basic, inexpensive, and reliable.

#22 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:21 PM

U20,

Well said. Without a doubt personal AIS is great addition, especially for other races in nearby waters that keep us out in those bumps overnight. The obvious product is a combo waterproof AIS and VHF handheld radio, but I haven't found one yet. There are small personal AIS devices (talked about HERE) but merging it with a handheld VHF would obviously be a big improvement as a lot of us carry VHF in our lifejackets so we can vector the boat back to us while we're swimming. I'd hate to give that away for a small personal AIS. Also, the two devices share a tremendous amount of technology so that from a cost point of view 1+1 doesn't equal 2, it equals about 1.4 of cost. While we're at it, we might as well mount a nice strobe flasher on top of the whip antenna.

I am a long way from getting over the loss of the LSC and her crew. Mark and Alan were friends after many CYC Friday night sails aboard LSC. They helped me out during a tough period and it is simply unimaginable that they're gone. I'm not looking forward to the next CYC Friday night race. Not at all.

Beau

#23 Bulbhunter

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:23 PM

This was mentioned in the other thread, but I'll repeat here.

I'm a kiter and the modern "tether" system currently used for kiting bars is a two stage system. In cases of trouble you trip a quick release, which opens a chicken loop attaching the kite to your harness. It is designed to totally depower the kite and drop it to the water. You are still attached to the kite by a leash, which after sorted out you can haul back in and re-engage your chicken loop and kite away.

If for what ever reason you are still in trouble, the leash has a quick release to basically detach yourself completely from the kite and it go bye bye.

If I were to design a multi purpose off shore tether system it would have those features. They are basic, inexpensive, and reliable.



The tethers I like have two hooks on the boat end. One hook is farther away than the other and are gated hooks. This allows you to work and move about while being 100% clipped at all times you can unclip on hook pass it around a line rigging etc hook back up then unclip the second etc. Gated obviously keeps your hooks from hooking things you do not want to be hooked to like say a spin sheet that dropped to the deck then rockets back when the kite fills. The bail out quick release being at your harness ie chest etc.

The shorter length vs longer length tether hooks also enable you to select which range of movement you prefer or need to keep your self on deck vs dangling over the side etc.

#24 us7070

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:27 PM

U20,

Well said. Without a doubt personal AIS is great addition, especially for other races in nearby waters that keep us out in those bumps overnight. The obvious product is a combo waterproof AIS and VHF handheld radio, but I haven't found one yet. There are small personal AIS devices (talked about HERE) but merging it with a handheld VHF would obviously be a big improvement as a lot of us carry VHF in our lifejackets so we can vector the boat back to us while we're swimming. I'd hate to give that away for a small personal AIS. Also, the two devices share a tremendous amount of technology so that from a cost point of view 1+1 doesn't equal 2, it equals about 1.4 of cost. While we're at it, we might as well mount a nice strobe flasher on top of the whip antenna.

I am a long way from getting over the loss of the LSC and her crew. Mark and Alan were friends after many CYC Friday night sails aboard LSC. They helped me out during a tough period and it is simply unimaginable that they're gone. I'm not looking forward to the next CYC Friday night race. Not at all.

Beau



I'll try to find the link - I posted it a few weeks ago.

There is a device designed for divers - it's a small VHF, with a GPS and DSC capability.

As you probably know, when activated, the DSC makes an audible alarm on the VHF of boats equipped with DSC VHF receivers, and the GPS location is displayed on the receiver display.

#25 One eye Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:28 PM

1334692978[/url]' post='3676627']
Tethers are made with a quick release. Bottom line is that the boat is still there, but bodies are not. Wear your tether.


If you want to be tied on then tie on..if that makes YOU feel safe...number one when out in the ocean SHIT HAPPENS..so you are tied on and a rouge wave knocks your boat on it ear...you fall in and can't release your line...you think quick release? Hop in a pool with a weight on the other end of your line..and see how fast you can release that quick release..And when are you going to be to safe? Just like the OSHA cowboy? If you want to be safe...don't go near any body of water..not even that bathtub...

#26 One eye Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:31 PM

1334698033[/url]' post='3676752']

1334697660[/url]' post='3676745']
U20,

Well said. Without a doubt personal AIS is great addition, especially for other races in nearby waters that keep us out in those bumps overnight. The obvious product is a combo waterproof AIS and VHF handheld radio, but I haven't found one yet. There are small personal AIS devices (talked about HERE) but merging it with a handheld VHF would obviously be a big improvement as a lot of us carry VHF in our lifejackets so we can vector the boat back to us while we're swimming. I'd hate to give that away for a small personal AIS. Also, the two devices share a tremendous amount of technology so that from a cost point of view 1+1 doesn't equal 2, it equals about 1.4 of cost. While we're at it, we might as well mount a nice strobe flasher on top of the whip antenna.

I am a long way from getting over the loss of the LSC and her crew. Mark and Alan were friends after many CYC Friday night sails aboard LSC. They helped me out during a tough period and it is simply unimaginable that they're gone. I'm not looking forward to the next CYC Friday night race. Not at all.

Beau



I'll try to find the link - I posted it a few weeks ago.

There is a device designed for divers - it's a small VHF, with a GPS and DSC capability.

As you probably know, when activated, the DSC makes an audible alarm on the VHF of boats equipped with DSC VHF receivers, and the GPS location is displayed on the receiver display.


They have a pocket size EPIRB with a gps in it for about 300 bucks..afterthought..possibly if those lost could have activated the Epirbs..they. Just might have been found...there are many things in the water around this rock to where you are never found.

#27 One eye Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:50 PM

Why did nobody make as much Monday morning quarterbacking when that rabbit flat out disappeared a few years ago...and ALL were lost?.It is called yacht racing..SHIT HAPPENS...things break...and unfortunately people get hurt or die...I don't see you bitching about NASCAR...or football or what about that kid hat was hit by that baseball in Marin county...but you can sure throw in that we need to be tied in or we aren't safe...or they should have done this or that...It is all risk factor...Do you get up in the morning? Do you breath? Do you eat? Or cross the street? You can die from any of these actions...ever drive your car at 100 mph? Speed kills..but you did it...you want that neat picture while standing on those cliffs along the ocean...you don't bitch about any of those..but while you sit at home in your easy chair, smoking that bud or drinking that beer..all of you think they have to put their 2 cents in...and that is all it is worth...but you have to tell others ...and pass rules and try to controll everybody else...for safety...For those that do anything should know their limits and go home when your limit is reached..it is called common since...it is the Owner,Thecaptain...THE MASTER of that vessel that is in charge of that vessel..not some arm chair quarter back...His word is the LAW on that vessel..not yours...He knows what that vessel will do or won't do..he knows the skills of his crew...and knows when to go home...some boats did go home...some successfully finished that race...It is all about the risk factor that YOU want to have...This was a terrible accident and others will learn from it all by themselves..they don't need your 2 cents into the mess...

#28 amolitor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:55 PM

Hey, OeJ, this is the "Wide-open discussion" thread, why don't you put a fucking sock in it?

#29 enzof

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:00 PM

In Water: 7 Survivors 2
In Boat: 1 Survivors 1

your call.

#30 I'moutahere

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:05 PM

There are only 3 people who know what happened in this tragedy, and it probably happened so fast they won't all be sure what happened.

I know it is not the SA way, but how about canning the guesswork until they tell their story?

#31 One eye Jack

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:06 PM

1334694791[/url]' post='3676669']

1334689893[/url]' post='3676553']
I'll start off: Navas, your plug for the sfgate story that you happened to opine in was totally self-serving and also gives a distorted view of offshore racing to a generally uninformed public via a almost criminally wreckless media.

It sucks ass that 95% of news media coverage of sailing is the result of a death. I don't think the general public at large has a negative view of sailing but unfortunately there's a cadre of shitty people who sit around all day cramming cheezy poofs into their face and thinking that everything even remotely dangerous ought to be outlawed - and a few of them certainly showed up in the comment section of the article. These are the same people who think it's mean to play tag at recess. Their paranoia is fed by the media, and worst of all, they have just as much of a vote as the rest of us.

I've never sailed on the west coast let alone seen the Farallones or know those waters, so I have absolutely no comment on whether Low Speed Chase was too close to the rocks in the first place. I have to assume they were doing nothing more dangerous than any other skipper would, although I have seen some suggesting they should never have been in as close as they were. IMO anyone who blames the wreck on "pilot error" without having seen it firsthand is the same as the above uninformed troglodytes.

I think it's tragically ironic that last summer's Wingnuts incident "raised questions" about the use of tethers and whether people were being too heavy-handed on mandating their use etc etc (witness the semi-yellow journalism at the beginning of this article) and this year's season kicks off with a tragic incident tailor-made for tethers of any kind, and the yellow journalism is going the other way and "suggesting" that the CG and race organizers are delinquent in not requiring them. When I got a tether and harness as a birthday present in preparation for my first PH-Mac I wondered what the hell, and I don't think that tether and harness left my bag the whole race. (In my defense, it was a really flat race, plus I was younger and dumber.) These days, at night, or in seas, or if seas look like they're on the way, or whether I'm riding the rail or working on the low side, TETHER IN. Tether first, THEN whatever I went down there to do. I didn't need this tragedy to tell me that, but it's certainly a helpful reminder. I don't know which race boats Navas means when he says everyone's being lax about tethers, but he certainly doesn't mean the boat I sailed on in Long Island Sound and he DEFINITELY isn't referring to my Michigan ride.


Exactly..ever race there is that risk...just like the Wingnuts accident, or those that have been lost in the Atlantic...Anybody that did that Ano Nuevo race back in the mid 80s...will all tell you and remember that race...Monterey Ca to the Ano Nuevo bouy and back to Monterey...started off a real slacker..the wind started coming out of he southwest..and was trying to surf against the waves...rounded the bouy and all shit broke loose...waves ove 15 ft wind constant 50 and gusts reported of 65... Nobody was lost in hat race. And weren't "tethered"... Nobody quit the race because they couldn't..no place was a safe haven as the wind and then the waves were out of the south...either Monterey or moss landing was it...and ALL skippers were safe and diligent about their boat and crew...

#32 robmo01

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:11 PM

You've got it, there's an old adage that you should only abandon a sinking vessel when you have to step up to get into the life raft. I understand that these sailors were swept from the vessel, but I see your point, wear a tether.

In Water: 7 Survivors 2
In Boat: 1 Survivors 1

your call.



#33 Icedtea

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:18 PM

Is there a chance that for now on the race could be just out to the islands instead of around? Eg rounding a mark set close?

I have no knowledge of the race or area so it's pure speculation

#34 jeff E of the GWN

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:18 PM

1334692978[/url]' post='3676627']
Tethers are made with a quick release. Bottom line is that the boat is still there, but bodies are not. Wear your tether.


If you want to be tied on then tie on..if that makes YOU feel safe...number one when out in the ocean SHIT HAPPENS..so you are tied on and a rouge wave knocks your boat on it ear...you fall in and can't release your line...you think quick release? Hop in a pool with a weight on the other end of your line..and see how fast you can release that quick release..And when are you going to be to safe? Just like the OSHA cowboy? If you want to be safe...don't go near any body of water..not even that bathtub...

yeah any quick release under load usually is not much of a quick release. Seen many a kiter thrown around with no time to quick release, hard to try and find the lanyard when you head down draggoing in the drink , or getting thrown like a ragdoll.

#35 GABA

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:22 PM

There are only 3 people who know what happened in this tragedy, and it probably happened so fast they won't all be sure what happened.

I know it is not the SA way, but how about canning the guesswork until they tell their story?

And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?
Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?
The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.
WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We needed it after the Wingnuts loss in the Chicago Mac Race.
We need to have an open conversation now, too.
I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.
Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.

#36 I'moutahere

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:26 PM


There are only 3 people who know what happened in this tragedy, and it probably happened so fast they won't all be sure what happened.

I know it is not the SA way, but how about canning the guesswork until they tell their story?

And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?
Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?
The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.
WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We needed it after the Wingnuts loss in the Chicago Mac Race.
We need to have an open conversation now, too.
I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.
Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.


You are right. We all need to "look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices"

Problem is, nobody here knows what those "decisions and choices made" were. Any discussion is just guesswork that will probably cloud the real issues.

What you are proposing is just a knee jerk reaction.

#37 GABA

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:16 PM



There are only 3 people who know what happened in this tragedy, and it probably happened so fast they won't all be sure what happened.

I know it is not the SA way, but how about canning the guesswork until they tell their story?

And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?
Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?
The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.
WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We needed it after the Wingnuts loss in the Chicago Mac Race.
We need to have an open conversation now, too.
I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.
Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.


You are right. We all need to "look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices"

Problem is, nobody here knows what those "decisions and choices made" were. Any discussion is just guesswork that will probably cloud the real issues.

What you are proposing is just a knee jerk reaction.


No, I don't think I'm knee jerking.
I understand that they will - for entirely understandable reasons (including the god-forsaken lawyers, of which I am one) properly choose to keep their mouths closed and their thoughts to themselves for the forseeable future.
That can not and should not close off analysis of the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).

Many of us will be heading out into harm's way in the next few weeks or months.
We can not wait months for the results of the official inquest (like after the CYC inquest after the Chicago Mac loss of life) to talk about what went right and what went wrong and how that may or may not affect our personal preparations and actions on the water.

We need to have this conversation - based on the best information available, as flawed as it may be.

#38 I'moutahere

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:23 PM




There are only 3 people who know what happened in this tragedy, and it probably happened so fast they won't all be sure what happened.

I know it is not the SA way, but how about canning the guesswork until they tell their story?

And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?
Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?
The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.
WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We needed it after the Wingnuts loss in the Chicago Mac Race.
We need to have an open conversation now, too.
I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.
Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.


You are right. We all need to "look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices"

Problem is, nobody here knows what those "decisions and choices made" were. Any discussion is just guesswork that will probably cloud the real issues.

What you are proposing is just a knee jerk reaction.


No, I don't think I'm knee jerking.
I understand that they will - for entirely understandable reasons (including the god-forsaken lawyers, of which I am one) properly choose to keep their mouths closed and their thoughts to themselves for the forseeable future.
That can not and should not close off analysis of the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).

Many of us will be heading out into harm's way in the next few weeks or months.
We can not wait months for the results of the official inquest (like after the CYC inquest after the Chicago Mac loss of life) to talk about what went right and what went wrong and how that may or may not affect our personal preparations and actions on the water.

We need to have this conversation - based on the best information available, as flawed as it may be.


So now you are changing it from what was the "situation and the decisions and choices made" by the survivors, to "the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).". Lawyerspeak.

Of course the best information, and the ONLY information, available, is what is in the media. Trial by media - again?

#39 Bulbhunter

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:31 PM

Back on track boys.

Till I had a water cannon up my ass blast me off the rail I would be right with you about the whole being tied on thing. But trust me till you have big green cold water with some speed hit you - it is really hard to grasp how much force water can have on a fairly chill and normal day out there making the trip around the rock pile.

When I was ripped off the rail the blast of waster tore off all the loose gear I had - hat - glasses etc all leashed, lifted me right off the rail and sent me skidding across the deck. The owner in the back took one look at me and said damn are you OK all we could see was a column of green water and the next thing we see is you skidding across the deck like a rag doll. That was an eye opener hell yes tie me to the fucking boat no possible way I could have held my self to the rail and pretty lucky I didn't strain something in the process.

The thought of the crew on SLC being ripped off the rail by a big green sweeper I can fully imagine their surprise finding them selves totally clear of the boat by the time they got their bearings as to what just happened.

#40 phillysailor

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:32 PM

I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?

#41 Bulbhunter

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:36 PM

I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?



Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down

#42 GABA

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:43 PM





There are only 3 people who know what happened in this tragedy, and it probably happened so fast they won't all be sure what happened.

I know it is not the SA way, but how about canning the guesswork until they tell their story?

And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?
Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?
The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.
WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We needed it after the Wingnuts loss in the Chicago Mac Race.
We need to have an open conversation now, too.
I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.
Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.


You are right. We all need to "look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices"

Problem is, nobody here knows what those "decisions and choices made" were. Any discussion is just guesswork that will probably cloud the real issues.

What you are proposing is just a knee jerk reaction.


No, I don't think I'm knee jerking.
I understand that they will - for entirely understandable reasons (including the god-forsaken lawyers, of which I am one) properly choose to keep their mouths closed and their thoughts to themselves for the forseeable future.
That can not and should not close off analysis of the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).

Many of us will be heading out into harm's way in the next few weeks or months.
We can not wait months for the results of the official inquest (like after the CYC inquest after the Chicago Mac loss of life) to talk about what went right and what went wrong and how that may or may not affect our personal preparations and actions on the water.

We need to have this conversation - based on the best information available, as flawed as it may be.


So now you are changing it from what was the "situation and the decisions and choices made" by the survivors, to "the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).". Lawyerspeak.

Of course the best information, and the ONLY information, available, is what is in the media. Trial by media - again?

Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.

#43 I'moutahere

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:50 PM

Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.

I noted your comments in the other thread. "+ 1 Well said." Seems to be in conflict with what you write here.

#44 ropetrick

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:01 AM

JS take your attention whore trolling elsewhere.

Or contribute to the discussion.

This is not the Costa Concordia thread.

#45 One eye Jack

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:13 AM

1334699703[/url]' post='3676791']
Hey, OeJ, this is the "Wide-open discussion" thread, why don't you put a fucking sock in it?


See that you put in your pennies worth...Absolutly nothing...

#46 us7070

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:23 AM

1334698033[/url]' post='3676752']

1334697660[/url]' post='3676745']
U20,

Well said. Without a doubt personal AIS is great addition, especially for other races in nearby waters that keep us out in those bumps overnight. The obvious product is a combo waterproof AIS and VHF handheld radio, but I haven't found one yet. There are small personal AIS devices (talked about HERE) but merging it with a handheld VHF would obviously be a big improvement as a lot of us carry VHF in our lifejackets so we can vector the boat back to us while we're swimming. I'd hate to give that away for a small personal AIS. Also, the two devices share a tremendous amount of technology so that from a cost point of view 1+1 doesn't equal 2, it equals about 1.4 of cost. While we're at it, we might as well mount a nice strobe flasher on top of the whip antenna.

I am a long way from getting over the loss of the LSC and her crew. Mark and Alan were friends after many CYC Friday night sails aboard LSC. They helped me out during a tough period and it is simply unimaginable that they're gone. I'm not looking forward to the next CYC Friday night race. Not at all.

Beau




I'll try to find the link - I posted it a few weeks ago.

There is a device designed for divers - it's a small VHF, with a GPS and DSC capability.

As you probably know, when activated, the DSC makes an audible alarm on the VHF of boats equipped with DSC VHF receivers, and the GPS location is displayed on the receiver display.


They have a pocket size EPIRB with a gps in it for about 300 bucks..afterthought..possibly if those lost could have activated the Epirbs..they. Just might have been found...there are many things in the water around this rock to where you are never found.


many of us have personal EPIRB's or PLB's..., but they are not really ideal for MOB situations.

The personal AIS is a great idea, because any nearby boat with an AIS receiver, which is now often required for offshore sailing, will see your position in the water displayed on their chartplotter in real time.

The satellite-based PLB's only communicate your position to a SAR center, and it can take some time for that position to be made available to boats nearby.

#47 I'moutahere

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:30 AM

JS take your attention whore trolling elsewhere.

Or contribute to the discussion.

This is not the Costa Concordia thread.


Do you think the survivors, or their friends or relatives won't be reading this thread? Do you want to blame any or all of the crew, publicly? I will leave you to your trial by media - Idiot!

#48 'moondance44

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:38 AM

I am pretty surprised that there is a question about tethers being used or not in fresh conditions that can potentially roll a boat,
or put the deck awash. Especially where the locals say these swells can develop as they did in this area. And cold water. Many of you need a SAS seminar. First and most important rule is stay on the boat. There is no argument for not using tethers. The modern quick release will do so under load. The release is at your chest between your tits. One of your hands will get there. But like seat belts
people dont always use either at times when they should, myself included. Tethers = good. Getting seperated from the boat = bad. Always.

East Coaster - I believe there has been only 1 loss of life on the Bermuda Race in the early years which was a crew being transfered off a burning boat that was crushed between hulls. Block Island Race I know of one, Jaime Boekel (sp) a pro bowman who was struck in the head by a breaking spin pole in a squall and went overboard. An argument can be made a tether would have saved his life. There may be others but I dont think anything near this. Vineyard I dont know of any. Maybe an oldtimer can chime in.

I certainly hope this type of event dosn't affect race or CG regulations. I cant imagine tethering ever being being required.
Wouldnt want to see stand off marks either. Lots of races round rocks out in the sea. Part of the challenge and skill of distance racing is cutting things close without it going bad.

#49 SW Sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:52 AM






And if they choose not to talk (for their own very understandable reasons)? Then what?
Are we not allowed to look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices?
The necessary discussion has already been moved from the original thread.
WE AS A COMMUNITY NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION.

We need to have an open conversation now, too.
I know it ain't pretty, but we need to learn from the actions and decisions of our fellow sailors.
Right or Wrong, they made the call in the heat of the moment.

We need to look their choices square in the eye and hoefully learn from them.


You are right. We all need to "look at the situation and the decisions and choices made and evaluate our own personal choices"

Problem is, nobody here knows what those "decisions and choices made" were. Any discussion is just guesswork that will probably cloud the real issues.

What you are proposing is just a knee jerk reaction.


No, I don't think I'm knee jerking.
I understand that they will - for entirely understandable reasons (including the god-forsaken lawyers, of which I am one) properly choose to keep their mouths closed and their thoughts to themselves for the forseeable future.
That can not and should not close off analysis of the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).

Many of us will be heading out into harm's way in the next few weeks or months.
We can not wait months for the results of the official inquest (like after the CYC inquest after the Chicago Mac loss of life) to talk about what went right and what went wrong and how that may or may not affect our personal preparations and actions on the water.

We need to have this conversation - based on the best information available, as flawed as it may be.


So now you are changing it from what was the "situation and the decisions and choices made" by the survivors, to "the conditions and the decisions made by the broader sailing community (us).". Lawyerspeak.

Of course the best information, and the ONLY information, available, is what is in the media. Trial by media - again?

Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.

I understand the concern for safety very well, but you seem hell bent on forcing an immediate discussion based on likely flawed information to learn some life saving lessons, and have taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of the entire sailing community to bring this discussion about.

If you're genuinely that concerned, and your situation is that urgent, I'd suggest skipping the next race or two to give it some time.

Are you planning on sailing to the Farallons anytime soon ?

What specifically do you expect to gain from an analysis of this situation ?

Have you taken the safety at sea seminar, taught by pros vs soliciting comments on a forum ?


No offense, but I question the urgency of your request given this accident just happened.


#50 'moondance44

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:55 AM

Fyg - This is what the Newport-Bermuda Race is saying about tethers. I am not relating this to the Farallones incident,
and what they should or should not have done. Its just info. But they are regulated at night. Thats a recent change.

5.02
Safety Harness and Safety Lines (Tethers)
BROC prescribes that safety harnesses and lifejackets shall be worn while on deck: (a) from sunset to sunrise; and/or when the mainsail is reefed or being reefed.
BROC prescribes that crewmembers on deck should wear a safety harness, an inflatable lifejacket equipped with a whistle, white strobe light, along with crotch/thigh straps. BROC reminds sailors that the US SAILING Prescription OSR 5.02.4 requires safety harnesses and lifejackets to be worn on deck from sundown to sun up.
BROC prescribes that safety lines (tethers) should have release-under-tension snaphooks at the body and be attached to non/low stretch jackstays (jacklines) or strong attachment points. Extra safety lines (tethers) should be provided for stations where handholds are not within easy reach.
5.02.1
Each crew member shall have a harness and safety line (tether) that complies with ISO 12401 or equivalent with a safety line (tether) not more than 2m in length.
Harnesses and safety lines (tethers) manufactured prior to Jan 2010 shall comply with either ISO 12401 or EN 1095.
Harnesses and safety lines (tethers) manufactured prior to Jan 2001 are not permitted.
US SAILING prescribes that harnesses and safety lines (tethers) manufactured prior to Jan 2001 are not recommended in the U.S.
a)
Warning it is possible for a plain snaphook to disengage from a U bolt if the hook is rotated under load at right-angles to the axis of the U-bolt. For this reason the use of snaphooks with positive locking devices is strongly recommended.
5.02.2
At least 30% of the crew shall each, in addition to the above be provided with either:-
a)
a safety line (tether) not more than 1m long, or
a mid-point snaphook on a 2m safety line (tether)
5.02.3
A safety line (tether) purchased in January 2001 or later shall have a coloured flag embedded in the stitching, to indicate an overload. A line which has been overloaded shall be replaced as a matter of urgency.
5.02.4
A crew member's lifejacket and harness shall be compatible
US SAILING prescribes that the safety harness may be integrated with an inflatable personal floatation device (see OSR 5.01) and recommends that such devices be employed whenever conditions warrant, and always in rough weather, on cold water, or at night, or under conditions of reduced visibility or when sailing short-handed.
US SAILING prescribes that safety harnesses and PFD's shall be worn on Category 0 and 1 races from sundown to sun up while on deck.
5.02.5
It is strongly recommended that:-
a)
static safety lines (tethers) should be securely fastened at work stations;
A harness should be fitted with a crotch strap or thigh straps. Crotch straps or thigh straps together with related fittings and fixtures should be strong enough to lift the wearer from the water.
c)
to draw attention to wear and damage, stitching on harness and safety lines (tethers) should be of a colour contrasting strongly with the surrounding material;
d)
snaphooks should be of a type which will not self-release from a U-bolt (see OSR 5.02.1(a)) and which can be easily released under load (crew members are reminded that a personal knife may free them from a safety line (tether) in emergency);
e)
e)
a crew member before a race should adjust a harness to fit then retain that harness for the duration of the race.
5.02.6
Warning - a safety line and safety harness are not designed to tow a person in the water and it is important that the shortest safety line (tether) length possible be used with a harness to minimise or eliminate the risk of a person's torso becoming immersed in water outside the boat, especially when working on the foredeck. 1m safety lines (tethers) or the midpoint snaphook on a 2m line should be used for this purpose. The diligent use of a properly adjusted safety harness and the shortest safety line (tether) practicable is regarded as by far the most effective way of preventing man overboard incidents.

#51 phillysailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:59 AM


I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?



Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down



Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?

#52 I'moutahere

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:00 AM




Dude - all I'm saying is that in a forum thread entitled "wide open discussion" we need to be able to talk among ourselves based on the "best information available" at the time - from whatever source.

The hypersensitive "thought police" have no place here in this thread.

After last summer's Winguts loss, I never, never thought we'd be here again mere months later. My heart bleeds. This is SO Wrong.

Our lives are on the line every time we go offshore, and I resent any efforts to suppress the respectful discussion of this tragedy and the communal effort to learn potentially life-saving lessons from it.

I understand the concern for safety very well, but you seem hell bent on forcing an immediate discussion based on likely flawed information to learn some life saving lessons, and have taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of the entire sailing community to bring this discussion about.

If you're genuinely that concerned, and your situation is that urgent, I'd suggest skipping the next race or two to give it some time.

Are you planning on sailing to the Farallons anytime soon ?

What specifically do you expect to gain from an analysis of this situation ?

Have you taken the safety at sea seminar, taught by pros vs soliciting comments on a forum ?


No offense, but I question the urgency of your request given this accident just happened.


Thank you SW. That's exactly the message I'm trying to get across. Unfortunately some idiots like "Ropetrick" and a few others are more interested in stirring shit.

Give the survivors a rest. They will be feeling bad enough and will forever wonder if they could have done anything better. They don't need dickheads who were not there secondguessing their actions when nobody knows what their actions were.

#53 Left Hook

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:02 AM

It should be said that there's a very high possibility that those directly involved and affected by the tragedy will someday read this thread. Perhaps we should keep that in mind when making our points and temper the way in which we make them.

Carry on.

#54 K38BOB

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:07 AM



I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?



Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down



Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?


Its not the CG or the RC responsibility/liability. Its the skippers responsibility to know the boat and crew capability for the conditions and to decide to go out or not

#55 kadyca

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:07 AM

Reading this news is just terrible. I've done that race a couple of times in what sounds like similar conditions. Thank the lord that we never had problems like that, just some busted gear.

Based on the few times I crewed on that race, I can easily imagine how things could have gone south fast. I'm pretty sure we didn't use harnesses or jacklines, and I was working the mast on an Elliot 46. We did get knocked down by a wave one time, and when the boat finally came back up and I went back to the cockpit to check on things, the rest of the crew was still sprawled all over the place like a bunch of bowling pins that had just got knocked down. Once I saw that things looked OK in the cockpit, I went down below to take a whiz, but it didn't occur to me to say anything to anyone that I was going below. When I came out of the head I heard all this shouting from the cockpit about a possible MOB. Turns out that when my sister (who the skipper had kindly allowed to come along as a guest at my request) eventually was able to get up again but didn't see me up on the foredeck, she raised the alarm that I might have been washed over in the knock down. Fortunately, I came out of the cabin just in time before they started to take action, but people were seriously scared there for a minute.

If somebody had gotten washed overboard in those conditions, it would have been really hairy to try and pick them up. But that's exactly what these guys had to try and do, god bless them. That takes some real courage and the survivors should be honored for risking their lives to try and save their fellow crew. Yes, it's a very difficult calculus we sailors make when we enter events like this. Of course, just walking down the street in SF you could just as easily get killed by some hipster on a bike who couldn't be bothered to slow down for a yellow light because he was already "too committed to stop." Personally, I like my chances on the ocean.

If I were ever to do that race again, I would seriously consider that I would want to have jacklines and tethers, especially if I was working foredeck again. Likewise, I will certainly look into getting a PLB or one of those other devices mentioned in the thread.

Be safe out there, and prayers for the friends, families, and the whole sailing community.



#56 NoStrings

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:09 AM

SWS, perhaps he'd like a "stand down" from all racing until some kind of official failure and operational analysis is performed, reports written, recommendations made, regulations written, equipment purchased, and crews trained. You know, like NASA did after the shuttle accidents. That way we'll be racing in two or three years and we'll be no safer than we are today. Some people seem to think that infinite knowledge will guarantee safety. I'm sorry to say that isn't possible, and if you actually race "out there" enough you know it. Take whatever safety measures for your boat and crew that you deem prudent for the conditions. What more do you need to know than that? All of this speculation and conjecture is nothing more than mental masturbation.

#57 no one important

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:05 AM



I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?



Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down



Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?


nope

#58 dog of war

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:06 AM

I have walked away from one boat and refused to sail on another because of John.......I'm nothing more than a hack but I would never sail with that ass!!! My .02

#59 PIL007

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:23 AM




I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?



Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down



Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?


Its not the CG or the RC responsibility/liability. Its the skippers responsibility to know the boat and crew capability for the conditions and to decide to go out or not



I really like the idea of waypoint rounding marks in deep water, well away from ground structures which we all know can be tempting to cut close for that small advantage. This would have avoided LSC and Shockwave (Flinders Is. 2009) tragedy's. It's certainly worthy of discussion. Like many offshore courses worldwide, here on the East Coast of Oz, we use many rocky outcrops and Islands, many with no lights/aids, as rounding marks. Why..? we don't need to. We now have the technology, maybe it's time to use it.

#60 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:30 AM

Night about 100 miles east of Long Island. We are reaching in a nice steady 20 knots with an easy motion and not much spray. The waves are long period enough that it is very nice sailing. I am tethered in, as is standard on our boat at night, but don't feel as if I need to be. The waves are just forward of the beam.
Next thing I know I am flying over the cockpit propelled by a large breaking wave from DEAD AFT that I never heard or saw :o The tether came taught about the same time my head hit the cabin and I ended up on the cockpit floor. Everyone was looking at me like WTF are you DOING there ????


Back on track boys.

Till I had a water cannon up my ass blast me off the rail I would be right with you about the whole being tied on thing. But trust me till you have big green cold water with some speed hit you - it is really hard to grasp how much force water can have on a fairly chill and normal day out there making the trip around the rock pile.

When I was ripped off the rail the blast of waster tore off all the loose gear I had - hat - glasses etc all leashed, lifted me right off the rail and sent me skidding across the deck. The owner in the back took one look at me and said damn are you OK all we could see was a column of green water and the next thing we see is you skidding across the deck like a rag doll. That was an eye opener hell yes tie me to the fucking boat no possible way I could have held my self to the rail and pretty lucky I didn't strain something in the process.

The thought of the crew on SLC being ripped off the rail by a big green sweeper I can fully imagine their surprise finding them selves totally clear of the boat by the time they got their bearings as to what just happened.



#61 robalex117

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:38 AM

I agree. The kite system will work under full loads. The double shackle system on most tethers would be very hard to releae under load.

1334697476[/url]' post='3676742']
This was mentioned in the other thread, but I'll repeat here.

I'm a kiter and the modern "tether" system currently used for kiting bars is a two stage system. In cases of trouble you trip a quick release, which opens a chicken loop attaching the kite to your harness. It is designed to totally depower the kite and drop it to the water. You are still attached to the kite by a leash, which after sorted out you can haul back in and re-engage your chicken loop and kite away.

If for what ever reason you are still in trouble, the leash has a quick release to basically detach yourself completely from the kite and it go bye bye.

If I were to design a multi purpose off shore tether system it would have those features. They are basic, inexpensive, and reliable.



#62 K38BOB

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:39 AM





I wonder if there is a researcher on the Farallones who is right now thinking as he looks at the broken yacht on his doorstep, " I knew this was going to happen, someday." What have been their observation of seas in the conditions encountered by the racers Saturday? Are there areas particularly prone to dramatic wave trains, which, statistically, were bound to coincide with the passage of an aggressively sailed yacht? Most sailors with exceptional knowledge of the SF Bay might only have a couple of hours of time spent in close proximity to the Farallones.

I also think that the Race Committee will be seriously considering changing the course to require yachts to round marks offset from the rock pile to increase safety. With or without RC vessels on station to enforce the "roundings", competing yachts could reasonably, in this day and age, be expected to provide navigational evidence (most easily digital records) to prove compliance with such rules. Given a litigious society, and insurance realities, this response has at least a fair probability of happening.

How would SA folks feel if the race were changed as a result of this disaster?



Hey if you could develop marks or say an RC crew that would stay put in that location and water depth you would be a rich man.. Stick to what you know it might save you from a major SA beat down



Sorry, meant to say the "marks" were GPS points and/or required distance to stand off the rocks. That's why "roundings" was in quotes.

Major SA beat downs are annoying, tho; they also tend to limit discussions. Thanks for the advice.

But the question stands: Do you think the RC will be forced to change the course in order to limit liability?


Its not the CG or the RC responsibility/liability. Its the skippers responsibility to know the boat and crew capability for the conditions and to decide to go out or not



I really like the idea of waypoint rounding marks in deep water, well away from ground structures which we all know can be tempting to cut close for that small advantage. This would have avoided LSC and Shockwave (Flinders Is. 2009) tragedy's. It's certainly worthy of discussion. Like many offshore courses worldwide, here on the East Coast of Oz, we use many rocky outcrops and Islands, many with no lights/aids, as rounding marks. Why..? we don't need to. We now have the technology, maybe it's time to use it.


I think we need to put foam rubber bumpers on the corners of buildings so people don't get hurt when they hit them. Also foam rubber sidewalks to protect people when they trip and fall.

#63 POH

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:11 AM

I came from the condolences thread to here just to say: JNavas - you are a douchebag.

I assume you are the same John Navas quoted saying racers don't take tethers seriously IN AN ARTICLE YOU THEN POSTED IN THE CONDOLENCES THREAD SAYING HOW GREAT THE COVERAGE IS?!

Self promotion is one thing, but fuck me, I hope someone who knows you sees this and kicks you in your (obviously small and requiring compensation) nuts.

On top of being a complete fucking idiot (based on your quote - most of the racers I know take tethers and safety extremely seriously) and having no class (self-promotion thing), you also managed to lecture a bunch of people who were telling you & others to respect their condolences thread about how to behave on a forum?

You fucking troll. (Ed - apologies for the language, but I hope you give me a pass this one time!)

(If anyone has a picture of Mr. Navas writhing on the ground, holding his crotch, while real sailors poor beer on him ... that would be grand).

Ed - if you ever come up with a function to be able to 'like' other members & their comments, please add a 'dislike' function - I know who will get my first vote.

#64 bwana

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:24 AM

Navas registers on the douchebag meter all the way in Australia?

Wow. That's impressive...

#65 SW Sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:25 AM

I have walked away from one boat and refused to sail on another because of John.......I'm nothing more than a hack but I would never sail with that ass!!! My .02

You're not alone.

I think he's blackballed on every boat he's stepped on.



#66 Wayne

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:26 AM

After growing up surfing my whole life, I immediately thought about this accident from a surfer's perspective. When dealing with a surfline, it is often not obvious where the set waves are going to break. The best surfers in the world get caught inside, and take it on the head. If a big set hasn't rolled through in a while, the water often looks just fine. I can only imagine how scary that would be getting stuck inside during a big set on a Sidney 38. I've taken 15 foot sets on the head surfing, as well as windsurfing over the years, but dealing with that on a keelboat is just unimaginable.

Some times things just don't line up in your favor. The sea never changes, and sailboats have been going on lee shores for 100s of years. It's usually a number of things that have to go wrong for these things to happen. And there will always be some luck involved. So many times I've tempted fate by doing wreckless things as a teen, like sailing out the gate on my laser late on a summer afternoon on an ebb, and not telling anyone I was going out. Great memories, but I was lucky.

Lost a good friend a few years ago after we crossed tacks, and he continued on singlehanding . Found his boat without him aboard the next day. It's really hard. We all know this sport can be dangerous, but I doubt any of us will be quitting anytime soon.

"But by the grace of God there go I"


I send my respect, and condolences to the family and friends.

#67 Y-Bar

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:42 AM

I have a hollow feeling in my gut when I read these threads. Having sailed on multis that generally dont have life lines you learn the value of a tether with the knowlege that they are not there to stop you. My closest experience to going overboard was however on a mono (no disrespect) one afternoon in a beer can race it was blowing not more than 25 knts from the North. This produces a fairly short steep 4-6ft wave patten in our area.
All was going well and the owners wife was steering at the time a wave came up under the aft quarter of the boat picked it up and punched it nose first into the wave in front. The boat broached and the following wave picked me off the windward rail flung me across the cockpit and head first backwards through the leward life lines. Ended up just staying on with legs hooked over the middle life line. Got dragged back on with can of burbon in hand even though it tasted a bit salty.
Shit happens anytime and we all need to be aware and stay safe. Threads like this are a timely reminder and the advice and constructive comments and experiences of SAers in most cases can help us all.
My sincere condolances to the family, friends, sailing club and community for their loss.

#68 Bulbhunter

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:53 AM

[quote name='kent_island_sailor' timestamp='1334716235' post='3677130']
Night about 100 miles east of Long Island. We are reaching in a nice steady 20 knots with an easy motion and not much spray. The waves are long period enough that it is very nice sailing. I am tethered in, as is standard on our boat at night, but don't feel as if I need to be. The waves are just forward of the beam.
Next thing I know I am flying over the cockpit propelled by a large breaking wave from DEAD AFT that I never heard or saw :o The tether came taught about the same time my head hit the cabin and I ended up on the cockpit floor. Everyone was looking at me like WTF are you DOING there ????


[quote name='U20guy2' timestamp='1334705467' post='3676907']


Its like the most unexpected body check by the largest line backer you can think of when your not looking. HA HA - once it happens and you find your self dumped in a heap some place other than your original spot your pretty much thinking one thing. FUCK ME that was unexpected. Assuming you haven't broken something or mangled a body part during your wave assisted flying lesson.

#69 WHL

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:14 AM

I agree. The kite system will work under full loads. The double shackle system on most tethers would be very hard to release under load.


Let's get this right.:
1. they are SNAP HOOKS not shackles.
2. Most have snap hooks at each end?? Nope. You CAN buy tethers with a snap hook at both ends, but a person would have to be pretty thick for the reason you said.

Perhaps a better thing to do would be to promote what the OSR and just about every national authority says about tethers:
The recommended tether is a double tether, 1metre + 2metre with snap hooks with a locking gate, and a quick release. Anyone going to buy a tether shouldn't be looking at anything other than that. Why even bother thinking of other choices? Just get the right gear in the first place.

You often hear on these forums that snap shackles as a quick release are unreliable.. If that's the case, why would anyone use them on spin sheets and guys if they are prone to unexpected releases with shock loads? One of the keys to using them is to use a tried and tested release method that is unlikely to accidentally catch and trip it.

I would still prefer to have a snap shackle attached to the harness than a dead end that needs a knife.

#70 dog of war

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:50 AM

1334718709[/url]' post='3677195']
I came from the condolences thread to here just to say: JNavas - you are a douchebag.



Self promotion is one thing, but fuck me, I hope someone who knows you sees this and kicks you in your (obviously small and requiring compensation) nuts.



(If anyone has a picture of Mr. Navas writhing on the ground, holding his crotch, while real sailors poor beer on him ... that would be grand).



It sounds like you know him well!! I would be more than happy to kick him in the nuts (if he has a pair) but it would be a waste of time. He has a proven history of talking his way onto boats but never last more than a season (sometimes much less). A self important self absorbed piece of shit and a pox to the sailing couminty. and if you are reading this John bring it bitch my name is Tom Warren!!! But you can call me War Dog bitch!!!!

#71 Ahi Tuna

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 04:56 AM

Forgive my rough copy/paste from the other thread but BW is right, it does not belong there...





Posted Today, 09:06 PM

public/style_images/master/snapback.pngJNavas, on 17 April 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I've now spoken to the USCG, and the USCG will not be investigating this tragedy.
Because it was a "recreational boating" incident, that will be done by the SFPD: Inspector Dean Taylor

USCG may or may not review the permitting process for the event.
That will be handled by Lieutenant Commander DesaRae A. Janszen, Waterways Management.

So a thorough nautical safety review of the incident seems unlikely.


Well, the USCG reads SA and the Chronicle and they figured since you already had it all figured out they would save themselves the trouble...

But seriously...

Why are you bothering the nice folks at the Coast Guard? They have a real job to do and are professionals as we saw. Your involvement is not helping, but I realize that won't stop you based on what has gone on here.

A LOT of people (full disclosure: I'm not among them) have spent a lot of time building a rapport with the local Coast Guard folks. Why are you involved? Are you part of the large, hard working group of volunteers (YC's, YRA, BAMA, SSS and many more) in the Bay Area that work tirelessly to put on sailing races? Are you a boat owner with some stake in all this?

I would respectfully suggest that you lay low for a while or you might just have to buy a boat in order to get a ride.

#72 amperrin

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:03 AM

I am always hesitant to post here but felt I had a few points I would like to make

1) I carry a PLB so the coastguard are alerted to a problem - in the case that helicopter is the only method of rescue this obviously has its advantages
2) I carry a VHF with DSC http://www.standardh...=3&isArchived=0 if I set that off then the boats in the vicinity will get an alarm on their VHF's with my position

So now I have help hopefully coming from two places. If I am in the middle of the ocean or in the deep south 1 is not going to be of immediate help but 2 will. 2 has the added advantage of me being able to talk to a boat/ship searching for me because I am going to be able to see them before they see me and can hopefully tell them how to get to me. (both of these require me to be concious enough to set them off)

The personal AIS transponders are an interesting product but it requires people to have AIS receivers on the boats and currently DSC VHF's are a lot more prevalent. It does have the advantage (at least one of the models) that it will automatically transmit if my lifejacket inflates. The DSC VHF if hooked up to a computer will I believe show where the DSC report is coming from plotted on the chartplotter in the same way as AIS.

I personally love the AIS transponder and reciever we have on our boat and it was of great help when my bother and I raced doublehanded round Britain and Ireland. I am sure they will become more widespread in the coming years.

We have 406 EPIRBs on the harbour launches in South Georgia and always laughed about how little they would do for us. As we are our own SAR down there we rely on AIS for the boat and 121 MHZ personal transponders (with recievers in the boat) for the people and for the boat. We didn't have the DSC connected up as we were not able to get MMSI numbers assigned to the RIBs for some paperwork reason.

A few other thoughts.

I did mention to the PRO about considering waypoints that have to be rounded keeping everyone further offshore. Also I suggested the RORC style safety inspections whereby when you check in for the race you have to physically display what ever safety equipment they ask you to show. This would keep safety in people's minds.

Lifejackets IMHO are close to useless unless worn with crotch straps the verocity of the waves in certain conditions will just rip it off you. When it comes to grabbing hold of something to haul you out of the water your rescuer doesn't want to be left holding your lifejacket without you inside of it.

As a bow person I used to use manual only lifejackets but I have found the technology has gotten so much bettter that I can use an automatic one. They no longer seem to inflate when I am under water briefly during a sail change. I also always carry a spare cartridge with me. In 2005 we had such a damp environment on the boat during a transat that we were running out of spare CO2 cylinders and had to replace the automatic triggers (whch dissolved in water) with carefully cut pieces of pencil!

#73 K38BOB

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:16 AM

John,
I personally want to thank you for the participation in these forums. The responses you have generated from others have produced some great laughs this week which were rare and much needed!
Thanks!

#74 SW Sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:25 AM

This is more popular for him than when he was born, at least in his mom's eyes.

For those unaware, John has a very strong history of pissing off the entire crew of any and every boat he steps on while claiming to be an expert on everything.

The common statement after one race is "I'll no longer race on the boat if John is on board", which is why he has been blackballed from every boat he's raced on.

I think he means well, but so did Adolph.

#75 F-18 5150

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:43 AM

This is more popular for him than when he was born, at least in his mom's eyes.

For those unaware, John has a very strong history of pissing off the entire crew of any and every boat he steps on while claiming to be an expert on everything.

The common statement after one race is "I'll no longer race on the boat if John is on board", which is why he has been blackballed from every boat he's raced on.

I think he means well, but so did Adolph.


Thats not fair to Adolph.

#76 dog of war

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:43 AM

Dang SW did we sail together once and you heard me leaving the boat? Because those were the exact words I said leaving a SC 52 about 8 years ago! :)

#77 enzof

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:45 AM

We know enough to ask ourselves the question
"How would I turn the island if I were not racing?"
The odds favored LSC. But what was the wager and what was the prize?

#78 amperrin

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:47 AM

I know I am about to sound like a bitch but did anyone else notice in this newscast that the guy at West Marine clipped on with the wrong end of the tether.....

#79 SW Sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 05:54 AM

Dang SW did we sail together once and you heard me leaving the boat? Because those were the exact words I said leaving a SC 52 about 8 years ago! :)


Don't think so, but this is a pretty common statement so you're in a big crowd.

I'm still looking for my rum, and I rarely even drink it but hearing JN stories is good enough reason. I'll take it straight, thank you.

#80 dog of war

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:01 AM

And I still have your rum it might be getting a bit funky after sitting the trunk for so long but name the regatta we can meet up at and it's yours!!

#81 K38BOB

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:05 AM

I know I am about to sound like a bitch but did anyone else notice in this newscast that the guy at West Marine clipped on with the wrong end of the tether.....


lol..yes...
Posted Image


#82 SW Sailor

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 06:06 AM

And I still have your rum it might be getting a bit funky after sitting the trunk for so long but name the regatta we can meet up at and it's yours!!


How about the soon to be renamed Stone Cup ?

A shot or six and some JN bashing sounds like a good idea.

#83 Lifeonplane

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 07:10 AM

The last time someone died in this race it was in the DH, in 98' I think. My fleet mate and friend, Harvey Shaskley died after getting knocked down in a big puff on his Fractional J-29 on the way back in. All the talk then was about his inflatable collar harness not inflating. It was the self inflating model but it didn't inflate, so he just drowned as he was towed behind his boat by his " tether". During the knockdown the other crew who was forward also got knocked over the lifelines but climbed back on board "under" the lifelines. By the time he got clear and back to the helm, Harvey had drowned. Enough about theaters. I have done this race more times then I care to remember, as both skipper and crew and there is one thing I am certain of. Shit happens. It is a long cold sea sickening slog out there. By the time you get to the islands you feel like you have won. You can't wait to get around, ease the strings and start to warm up. Sometimes your mind is already around the island and you forget just where you are. The wave patterns around the islands are so screwy that sometimes you steer up a wave and find out there is no backside - and just drop 10' or so. On one race while hiking with the tiller ext. I looked down to see the water 3' under the bottom of my keel. We belly flopped so hard it blew the leach cord out of the #3. The owner was not driving on Sat. Jay is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, but he always defers to more experienced offshore talent for events like this. It is my understanding that Alan Cahill was at the helm, so we will never know what his thoughts were. The boat is a great boat, professionally maintained by one of the best guys on the west coast so I can't imagine the boat was any issue. It is clear to me that when you put yourself out there, conditions can conspire against you and bad things can happen. Perhaps there just was not enough room for error in their plan. I can't make that call can you? When nothing bad happens in our world we take it for granted and become complacent and allow our self's to become vouelnable to circumstances. Well this is another wake up call for all of us. These 5 folks from our community paid the ultimate price and we need to make the their loss count for something good. If we work it right we will never know how many other near disasters were avoided because one of us remembered this event and did something, acted out in some way that changed the outcome of what could have happened. I don't think there were jack lines set up for the race. At the start it was glass. boats were getting ebbed across the line to DNS's. The fleet ghosted out the gate on a strong ebb. By the time they got to Potato patch shoal it had built to the point no one probable wanted to rig them. I know that after Sataurday, I will make sure I do everything I can to give my boat, my crew mates the best chance for a safe fun trip, and give us the most options and redundancies possible.

Just saying

#84 K38BOB

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 08:44 AM

The last time someone died in this race it was in the DH, in 98' I think. My fleet mate and friend, Harvey Shaskley died after getting knocked down in a big puff on his Fractional J-29 on the way back in. All the talk then was about his inflatable collar harness not inflating. It was the self inflating model but it didn't inflate, so he just drowned as he was towed behind his boat by his " tether". During the knockdown the other crew who was forward also got knocked over the lifelines but climbed back on board "under" the lifelines. By the time he got clear and back to the helm, Harvey had drowned. Enough about theaters. I have done this race more times then I care to remember, as both skipper and crew and there is one thing I am certain of. Shit happens. It is a long cold sea sickening slog out there. By the time you get to the islands you feel like you have won. You can't wait to get around, ease the strings and start to warm up. Sometimes your mind is already around the island and you forget just where you are. The wave patterns around the islands are so screwy that sometimes you steer up a wave and find out there is no backside - and just drop 10' or so. On one race while hiking with the tiller ext. I looked down to see the water 3' under the bottom of my keel. We belly flopped so hard it blew the leach cord out of the #3. The owner was not driving on Sat. Jay is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet, but he always defers to more experienced offshore talent for events like this. It is my understanding that Alan Cahill was at the helm, so we will never know what his thoughts were. The boat is a great boat, professionally maintained by one of the best guys on the west coast so I can't imagine the boat was any issue. It is clear to me that when you put yourself out there, conditions can conspire against you and bad things can happen. Perhaps there just was not enough room for error in their plan. I can't make that call can you? When nothing bad happens in our world we take it for granted and become complacent and allow our self's to become vouelnable to circumstances. Well this is another wake up call for all of us. These 5 folks from our community paid the ultimate price and we need to make the their loss count for something good. If we work it right we will never know how many other near disasters were avoided because one of us remembered this event and did something, acted out in some way that changed the outcome of what could have happened. I don't think there were jack lines set up for the race. At the start it was glass. boats were getting ebbed across the line to DNS's. The fleet ghosted out the gate on a strong ebb. By the time they got to Potato patch shoal it had built to the point no one probable wanted to rig them. I know that after Sataurday, I will make sure I do everything I can to give my boat, my crew mates the best chance for a safe fun trip, and give us the most options and redundancies possible.

Just saying


Thanks and sincere condolences on the loss of Harvey in DHF 1999.
I think we need to add more education on wave refraction and how the waves add from different directions. I hear too much about bad luck or sneakers or roque waves. In the area of these islands- its guaranteed that waves will combine in unusual ways- its not a question of if but when and if you happened to be there. The further you stand off, the better it is. You know that.

waves


#85 Heriberto

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:25 PM

Raise your hand if, through a series of pretty mundane circumstances and decisions, you found yourself in a situation that you are damn lucky to have survived.

Hand raised.

Without coulda, woulda, shoulda aside, here is my own absolute minimum, personal list of things I will never do again based on the above:

Change from the #3 to a #4 without a harness, lifejacket and tether clipped in.

Do a shorthanded night (or day) watch without harness, lifejacket and tether clipped in (and some extra techie stuff when I figure out what is the best avenue), whether racing or not.

Sail past a safe, sheltered lee shore, in calm conditions, in a small ULDB prone to knockdowns, directly into the teeth of what I absolutely know in my gut (or should know from the weather forecasts, that I will no longer ignore) is a gigantic thundercell with likely straightline winds in excess of 50-60kts sustained and gusting higher (in my case 100mph recorded a half-mile away).

Sail into those conditions (if I'm caught without a choice) with no hatchboards in, without harness, lifejacket and tether clipped in.

Sail a long-distance race or delivery on someone else's boat, counting on them having a functioning GPS and compass, and/or modern charting system, and or lacking redundant electrical power, and or knowing exactly where I need to go/not go to avoid running aground, regardless of condtions (which I am going to assume are shit).

Party hard for hours and on the midnight ride back to the YC, climb on the stern rail and have an animated discussion with a friend about a mutual ex-girlfriend (who really was, without exageration, a lying little bitch).

I will never do these things again. There are more, but you get the picture.

So yeah, shit happens, and like Captain Ron says, if something is gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there, but that isn't a very strong argument for continuing to make shit decisions, or disregarding that shit really does happen.

But getting back to my point, what seems to be the common denominator here? Harness, lifejacket, tether clipped in. If you look at it from the SAR, USCG standpoint, first, you would hardly need any other MOB technology, aside from how to lift my fat-ass back on board, and second, it would save them a lot of time and effort and danger in locating me and/or recovery of my body.

And the other common thread is knowing the boat, where it is, and what it can or cannot do.

This is all basic seamanship, but it is really damn easy to get suckered, and get in a situation that you barely survive, or don't survive, depending only on luck. And that is independent of any safety regulations. So far, I've been lucky.

Regarding lan-lon waypoints as marks on the race course, it's already been done for a long time, including this Volvo, and I expect that practice to increase in general. Whether or not it would be useful to the Farallones is not something I could have an informed opinion on, would defer to locals.

#86 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 12:56 PM

Hand raised, many times.

#87 Jem

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

Raise your hand if, through a series of pretty mundane circumstances and decisions, you found yourself in a situation that you are damn lucky to have survived.

Hand raised.


We all have.

I have never done this race and probably never woudl anyway, I have never been there and don't know the conditions, so some will say SFU.


However, I would say that this is an incident and not an accident, it's an important distinction.

A series of things were in place that resulted in what happened. These things will have been more (or less) predictable, but neverthless they all happened at that moment and with those other precipitating factors, this was the result - It's like all the holes in a series of layers aligning at once.

We assess risks all the time at sea, mitigate against what we calculate to occur and decide to take them or not.

If that poster who said that this would not be investigated as a marine accident is correct, this is not good. We all need to learn how to calculate our own risks better, or as best we can before we then elect to take them or not.

I'm reading this and the other thread to see if I can learn anything from it - I hope the investigation produces things that we can all learn from this tragic event.

J

#88 Heriberto

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:16 PM

It will be investigated. But it sounds like the Coast Guard won't be the entity doing the investigation as it is out of their jurisdiction (recreational boating, rather than commercial marine). If the boat was being sailed under a USCG captain's license, then there would be a USCG investigation. Instead, it sounds like there will be a police investigation (that is who did the government investigation of Wingnuts also).

I would be surprised if US Sailing also didn't do an investigation. Hopefully they do a better job than the Wingnuts report, that blamed absolutely everything except the primary cause, which was operator error (see my personal example above, I got lucky and got away with my error, I would never knowingly put my boat in that position again. They weren't as lucky).

#89 Clove Hitch

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:32 PM

Raise your hand if, through a series of pretty mundane circumstances and decisions, you found yourself in a situation that you are damn lucky to have survived.

Hand raised.


Hand raised.


p.s. I also dodged herpes barely, does that count for something, too?

#90 Tucky

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:36 PM


I agree. The kite system will work under full loads. The double shackle system on most tethers would be very hard to release under load.


Let's get this right.:
1. they are SNAP HOOKS not shackles.
2. Most have snap hooks at each end?? Nope. You CAN buy tethers with a snap hook at both ends, but a person would have to be pretty thick for the reason you said.

Perhaps a better thing to do would be to promote what the OSR and just about every national authority says about tethers:
The recommended tether is a double tether, 1metre + 2metre with snap hooks with a locking gate, and a quick release. Anyone going to buy a tether shouldn't be looking at anything other than that. Why even bother thinking of other choices? Just get the right gear in the first place.

You often hear on these forums that snap shackles as a quick release are unreliable.. If that's the case, why would anyone use them on spin sheets and guys if they are prone to unexpected releases with shock loads? One of the keys to using them is to use a tried and tested release method that is unlikely to accidentally catch and trip it.

I would still prefer to have a snap shackle attached to the harness than a dead end that needs a knife.


WHL, have you seen the quick release described- You have put a lot of thought into your harness and tether, and I wonder what you think of this.



#91 The Advocate

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:37 PM

Raise your hand if, through a series of pretty mundane circumstances and decisions, you found yourself in a situation that you are damn lucky to have survived.

Hand raised.



I would hate to count the times. When my time is up cause I do what I do and love it, I will accept it.

#92 The Advocate

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:42 PM

WHL, have you seen the quick release described- You have put a lot of thought into your harness and tether, and I wonder what you think of this.



What we do, that is absolutely fucking useless.

Oh, and I agree with Hung.

#93 Heriberto

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:43 PM

I also dodged herpes barely


Are you sure....?

#94 The Advocate

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 01:46 PM


I also dodged herpes barely


Are you sure....?


Sounds like a painful experience Heriberto, talking first hand?

#95 Heriberto

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:07 PM



I also dodged herpes barely


Are you sure....?


Sounds like a painful experience Heriberto, talking first hand?


Ha ha, no, but I thought that was generally filed under "he or she told me he or she was _fill in blank_....".

#96 WHL

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:08 PM

I've done this race DH on a Moore 24 and fully crewed on an 80's IOR one tonner and would do it again given the opportunity. There are some memories that will remain:
- The approach to this desolate and rugged place was awe inspiring and filled with anticipation every time
- The smell was of guano was an incentive to turn the corner and sail away fast
- The crisscrossing waves and washing machine of waves doubled up and simply exploded unexpectedly.
- The corkscrewing of the boat's motion made it tough to move along deck and hang on, even tethered. Ironically, the Moore 24 took it better than bigger the 40 footer.
- Wiping out and being laid flat in that sea state was unlike broaches in more predictable sea states and took a lot longer to get up and going again.
- With crew in the water on the lee side but still attached, the first thought was "Jaws" and the second was get out of the water fast.

The sequence of decisions and events that led up to this tragedy will live with the survivors. There is really no point in making it more painful with excruciating and self righteous criticism.

We all have our own thoughts on how we might have done it in these conditions. What needs to happen for those that have the safety of the crews in their hands (skipper, but navigators and tacticians need to think about this too) is to reflect and re-evaluate on what is really important. There is no pickle dish worth this. No matter what the conditions, or the safety gear used, the priority should be on decisions and actions respecting the crew and their safety foremost, then getting home intact, and then the race.

My thoughts still linger on the missing and what they went through before succumbing. I know that this will come flooding back as a reminder the next time I'm racing or cruising with sailing mates in difficult conditions.

#97 Heriberto

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:19 PM

I think it is possible to respectfully discuss an accident/incident like this, safety equipment and means of avoiding future adverse events. It is done all the time in other similar puruits like recreational aviation, skiing, moutaineering, motorcycle/car racing, etc.. Are they being insensitive when they blame pilot error and detail specifics for nearly every crash?

The other thread was not the place for it, for sure. But people shouldn't be forced to "search inside themselves" for best practices, avoiding discussing what could be improved in order to keep from hurting feelings. Excruciating and self-righteous are hopefully avoidable.

#98 WHL

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:24 PM

WHL, have you seen the quick release described- You have put a lot of thought into your harness and tether, and I wonder what you think of this.



I like the concept. Whatever release is used, the one situation that seems to be the most difficult to design for, is to avoid the release getting caught and tripped when you fall or get dragged across the deck. With the Tylaska and trip line I have now, it hasn't got in the way to any extent that it would catch and trip accidentally (yet !!)

#99 WHL

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 02:28 PM

I think it is possible to respectfully discuss an accident/incident like this, safety equipment and means of avoiding future adverse events. It is done all the time in other similar puruits like recreational aviation, skiing, moutaineering, motorcycle/car racing, etc.. Are they being insensitive when they blame pilot error and detail specifics for nearly every crash?

The other thread was not the place for it, for sure. But people shouldn't be forced to "search inside themselves" for best practices, avoiding discussing what could be improved in order to keep from hurting feelings. Excruciating and self-righteous are hopefully avoidable.


I agree that discussing best practices is a good thing. I just hope it can be done without the self righteous BS we see here so often.

#100 ecSpirit

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 03:00 PM

Think some folks are looking for this link?
http://www.briartek....mitters/orcadsc
A little better than just a DSC VHF as it also signals on 121.5 . . .




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