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#101 Merit 25

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:42 PM

Anyone using a panasonic version?
http://www.panasonic...et-overview.asp

#102 allen

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:01 PM

By the way, there is an issue with Jelly Bean and GPS. You have to turn GPS off and back on to clear it or something like that.

#103 Ocean View

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:44 AM

For those of you who have already bought and are using a tablet. <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: verdana, arial, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333969116211px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: verdana, arial, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333969116211px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">How is the screen in the sun? <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: verdana, arial, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333969116211px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: verdana, arial, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333969116211px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Is there anything that can be bought to improve it? <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: verdana, arial, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333969116211px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-family: verdana, arial, tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 13.333333969116211px; line-height: 20px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Thanks.


A layer of Vituki film from 3M will help

It tends to make the screen a bit directional in viewing angles, but it does help.

The drawback is that it reduces some of the display light getting out of the screen - ie the screen is a bit duller - but is easier to read due to less glare

A prime issue with most "consumer" devices is the lack of Nits - or brightness from the screen.

Sunlight viewing is an issue for non sunlight specific use devices.

Anyone using a panasonic version?
http://www.panasonic...et-overview.asp



It hasn't been released here yet - but with an 800 nit screen option it will work fine in bright sunlight and all reports I've seen so far are it's good in sunlight.

But it's as always there will be the old compromise - of battery life versus outdoor viewing time.



#104 ProaSailor

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 07:36 PM


$10 app. And damn right I'm upset about it! According to reviews in the Play Store and comments on other forums, I'm far from alone in experiencing this problem and feeling sabotaged. It's less about the money than suddenly losing a valuable tool.

From what I can tell, this Navionics failure has nothing to do with the upgrade to Android Ice Cream Sandwich, but in a similar vein, the ICS upgrade disabled Flash support in some cases, specifically the local web cam that allowed me to view the bay. I didn't pay anything extra for Flash support but am still annoyed that a very useful feature of a new phone suddenly stopped working, without any recourse except patience. In both cases, somebody fucked up bad and broke my phone.


I've been checking every day since I mentioned this and today the full suite of Navionics apps finally re-appeared in the Play Store. Prices have changed and vary by location. I got my free update and it seems to work great so far; haven't noticed any difference yet - except that it works again! Very handy. Marine&Lakes: USA, Android phone version


This Navionics product is only a toy. While recording a track yesterday, I used the "?" feature to query the track info to determine how far we had sailed. Worked once or twice, then crashed without saving the track. EVERY attempt to use the "Menu | Archive" feature to examine saved tracks now crashes the program with the message: "Unfortunately, USA has stopped. Report | OK". So much potential, yet so very disappointing.

#105 petersf

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Posted 21 September 2012 - 10:50 PM

there are lots of waterproof cases...

#106 Heriberto

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:32 AM

The Toughpad A1 (10-inch) is shipping end of October on pre-orders. Will have Broadband as an option. It will be Android 4.0. The bigger news is the 7-inch B1 will ship February sporting WINDOWS 8! Just spoke with their rep.

#107 bowman81

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:04 PM

The Toughpad A1 (10-inch) is shipping end of October on pre-orders. Will have Broadband as an option. It will be Android 4.0. The bigger news is the 7-inch B1 will ship February sporting WINDOWS 8! Just spoke with their rep.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've spoken to the rep 3 times this year, each time with a promise that it will be released end of next month and yet to see anything, last correspondence was that they would be shipped end of August. I'm all for getting something right before releasing it to the market but this is getting to be a joke. My first correspondence with the rep was 1/1/2012, 10 months later and yet to see a damn thing. Was really keen on purchasing one of these but have been put of by the continued delays.

#108 us7070

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:05 PM


The Toughpad A1 (10-inch) is shipping end of October on pre-orders. Will have Broadband as an option. It will be Android 4.0. The bigger news is the 7-inch B1 will ship February sporting WINDOWS 8! Just spoke with their rep.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've spoken to the rep 3 times this year, each time with a promise that it will be released end of next month and yet to see anything, last correspondence was that they would be shipped end of August. I'm all for getting something right before releasing it to the market but this is getting to be a joke. My first correspondence with the rep was 1/1/2012, 10 months later and yet to see a damn thing. Was really keen on purchasing one of these but have been put of by the continued delays.


Well, a waterproof windows 8 tablet would be awesome - assuming it's the full windows 8, and not the more limited RT version.

I also was thinking of getting an android Toughpad, but I'm glad i didn't/couldn't.

I have to wonder if the reason these android toughpads got delayed (cancelled?) is because the market for a $1000-1200 or more android tablet is pretty small - especially with windows 8 on the horizon. Android tablets seem mostly to be at the low end of the price range for tablets, and increasingly i read about developers discontinuing android versions of their apps - or never offering them- because of platform compatibility issues.

I would feel much better about spending $1200 for a waterproof windows 8 tablet than a waterproof android tablet, and I think Panasonic might recognize that a lot of people will feel that way.

So, that's a long way of explaining why the delayed launch of the android device may not mean the same thing for a windows 8 device.

#109 Heriberto

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:11 PM



The Toughpad A1 (10-inch) is shipping end of October on pre-orders. Will have Broadband as an option. It will be Android 4.0. The bigger news is the 7-inch B1 will ship February sporting WINDOWS 8! Just spoke with their rep.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've spoken to the rep 3 times this year, each time with a promise that it will be released end of next month and yet to see anything, last correspondence was that they would be shipped end of August. I'm all for getting something right before releasing it to the market but this is getting to be a joke. My first correspondence with the rep was 1/1/2012, 10 months later and yet to see a damn thing. Was really keen on purchasing one of these but have been put of by the continued delays.


Well, a waterproof windows 8 tablet would be awesome - assuming it's the full windows 8, and not the more limited RT version.

I also was thinking of getting an android Toughpad, but I'm glad i didn't/couldn't.

I have to wonder if the reason these android toughpads got delayed (cancelled?) is because the market for a $1000-1200 or more android tablet is pretty small - especially with windows 8 on the horizon. Android tablets seem mostly to be at the low end of the price range for tablets, and increasingly i read about developers discontinuing android versions of their apps - or never offering them- because of platform compatibility issues.

I would feel much better about spending $1200 for a waterproof windows 8 tablet than a waterproof android tablet, and I think Panasonic might recognize that a lot of people will feel that way.

So, that's a long way of explaining why the delayed launch of the android device may not mean the same thing for a windows 8 device.


Hmm, For many purposes, as long as you have a good working version of Remote Desktop then the device platform really doesn't matter all that much....

Yeah, the delays are the drag here. my understanding is it is primarily FCC issues. I know they shipped demos, I'm looking at one this afternoon.

#110 us7070

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:15 PM




The Toughpad A1 (10-inch) is shipping end of October on pre-orders. Will have Broadband as an option. It will be Android 4.0. The bigger news is the 7-inch B1 will ship February sporting WINDOWS 8! Just spoke with their rep.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've spoken to the rep 3 times this year, each time with a promise that it will be released end of next month and yet to see anything, last correspondence was that they would be shipped end of August. I'm all for getting something right before releasing it to the market but this is getting to be a joke. My first correspondence with the rep was 1/1/2012, 10 months later and yet to see a damn thing. Was really keen on purchasing one of these but have been put of by the continued delays.


Well, a waterproof windows 8 tablet would be awesome - assuming it's the full windows 8, and not the more limited RT version.

I also was thinking of getting an android Toughpad, but I'm glad i didn't/couldn't.

I have to wonder if the reason these android toughpads got delayed (cancelled?) is because the market for a $1000-1200 or more android tablet is pretty small - especially with windows 8 on the horizon. Android tablets seem mostly to be at the low end of the price range for tablets, and increasingly i read about developers discontinuing android versions of their apps - or never offering them- because of platform compatibility issues.

I would feel much better about spending $1200 for a waterproof windows 8 tablet than a waterproof android tablet, and I think Panasonic might recognize that a lot of people will feel that way.

So, that's a long way of explaining why the delayed launch of the android device may not mean the same thing for a windows 8 device.


Hmm, For many purposes, as long as you have a good working version of Remote Desktop then the device platform really doesn't matter all that much....

Yeah, the delays are the drag here. my understanding is it is primarily FCC issues. I know they shipped demos, I'm looking at one this afternoon.


I've tried the remote desktop apps, and I don't think they are good enough.

I think I will be much happier running Expedition directly on a windows 8 tablet than with the laptop and remote desktop. I won't even need the laptop much of the time - only when i want a big display.

#111 bbr

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:30 AM

I would feel much better about spending $1200 for a waterproof windows 8 tablet than a waterproof android tablet, and I think Panasonic might recognize that a lot of people will feel that way.


Might be worth looking at the waterproof Fujitsu Arrows Tab... a 10" Windows 8 tablet that's supposedly coming out in November... looks interesting...

Bill

#112 us7070

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 01:08 PM


I would feel much better about spending $1200 for a waterproof windows 8 tablet than a waterproof android tablet, and I think Panasonic might recognize that a lot of people will feel that way.


Might be worth looking at the waterproof Fujitsu Arrows Tab... a 10" Windows 8 tablet that's supposedly coming out in November... looks interesting...

Bill


it says waterproof..., but the Arrow doesn't really look waterproof...

I think I would prefer a 7 or 8 inch tablet, but the more I think about it, the more I think the the Panasonic will be an RT device, and not real windows 8.

#113 Heriberto

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:07 PM

Just looked at the A 1. Ordering 6 of them.... apparently the delay has been do to enterprise security software issues. They want to make it so that it is hard for people to download apps like in angry birds.

Also my info was wrong, the B1 Will be Android. The processor can't handle windows 8. Panasonic in Europe already has a Windows 8 tablet called in the D 1. It has a 10 inch screen and is a little beefeir than the A 1. They may release something similar to the US market But nothing concrete.

Just saw the H2 Which is a pretty serious windows machine, but bulky and rather expensive for on deck. Seriously bright screen.

#114 Ocean View

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:31 PM

For those of you who have already bought and are using a tablet.

How is the screen in the sun?

Is there anything that can be bought to improve it?

Thanks.


In essence you can try and make a non outdoor unit readable in sunlight by applying a vituki style film - but it will always be a compromise.

You need a high value in the screens NITS value to overpower the sunlight

Outdoor specific screens are typically above 800 NITS - 1100 on some newer devices - its the old battery time versus display war.
then the type of anti-glare method in use.

So the higher the NITS value, and the glare control method is what will help.

And the contrast value as noted above - but a good screen shouldn't need to do that.

A brief primer can be found here.

http://www.magnifice...Measurement.pdf

#115 allen

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:07 AM

If you hold it and angle it just right you can read the higher contrast stuff. If you are going to mount it somewhereit is the reflections are really going kill it. If you could make it so that it reflects a nice flat black surface it might be readable. But as usually your choices are a white boat or blue sky it really isn't very good. The worst thing is to put it in a waterproof pouch. Then there are two reflecting surfaces and there is just no way. I mounted mine in the cabin where I can see it from the cockpit and use a small remote to navigate around my starting line app. Works great.
For more see this http://l-36.com/phone_or_tablets.php

Allen
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#116 timg

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 07:41 PM

I just decided to get a tablet so this thread is very useful.

As I read it, my take is that for value and functionality the Nexus 7 is the current choice but there are still problems with day light visibility, correct? Difficult to tell if the problem is hardware or software, or both.

Recommendation on the cruising navigation app for geezer eye use? I imagine some of that has changed also. Expedition sounds interesting but very pricey. I see good comments re Navionics.

I will pass in the Windows product which came out since the last post, the iPad sounds good just too expensive for my purposes but the waterproof sleeve sounds like a big plus.

#117 allen

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

I just decided to get a tablet so this thread is very useful.

As I read it, my take is that for value and functionality the Nexus 7 is the current choice but there are still problems with day light visibility, correct? Difficult to tell if the problem is hardware or software, or both.

Recommendation on the cruising navigation app for geezer eye use? I imagine some of that has changed also. Expedition sounds interesting but very pricey. I see good comments re Navionics.

I will pass in the Windows product which came out since the last post, the iPad sounds good just too expensive for my purposes but the waterproof sleeve sounds like a big plus.


The viability issue is both hardware and software. The hardware is not very daylight friendly but stands a chance if the display is high contrast (read black and white) and large letters.

I have the Navionics app and like it but just don't try to read the fonts. I like the maps and the line that shows where I am headed. But to read it, I need to go below and put on two pair of reading glasses. Seriously.

Imho, developers for marine apps get carried away with making pretty apps that have lots of colors and fancy icons. Some of this leads to software that is impossible to read in daylight. I think most of it is developed by software types who don't sail. There are exceptions, but they are rare.

I have the Samsung Tab-2 and while I actually like it better than the Nexus-7 for marine use, I would buy the Nexus-7 if I had to do it over again. In other words, they are close.

I am getting close to releasing a racing app that does starting line (in a way that actually works) and waypoints as well as speed and direction. It is obviously easier to read in daylight that anything else out there but may not be what you want for cruising as it was "race tested" and not "cruising tested". It is easy to read with old eyes thought.

Here is a sneak preview (is this pre-announcing?) http://l-36.com/startline.php

Comments welcome.

Allen
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#118 allen

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:35 PM

I have released the StartLine Sailing Racing Instrument app. in the Google Play Story. Search StartLine.

#119 FromTheRail

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:04 PM

Not an Android tablet but I have a friend looking into if a KindleBerry Pi could be used as an ondeck tablet.

He is a busy man so it taking a while but there might be someing useful in the future.

http://www.ponnuki.n...kindleberry-pi/

#120 Drop Bear.

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 09:03 AM




The Toughpad A1 (10-inch) is shipping end of October on pre-orders. Will have Broadband as an option. It will be Android 4.0. The bigger news is the 7-inch B1 will ship February sporting WINDOWS 8! Just spoke with their rep.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've spoken to the rep 3 times this year, each time with a promise that it will be released end of next month and yet to see anything, last correspondence was that they would be shipped end of August. I'm all for getting something right before releasing it to the market but this is getting to be a joke. My first correspondence with the rep was 1/1/2012, 10 months later and yet to see a damn thing. Was really keen on purchasing one of these but have been put of by the continued delays.


Well, a waterproof windows 8 tablet would be awesome - assuming it's the full windows 8, and not the more limited RT version.

I also was thinking of getting an android Toughpad, but I'm glad i didn't/couldn't.

I have to wonder if the reason these android toughpads got delayed (cancelled?) is because the market for a $1000-1200 or more android tablet is pretty small - especially with windows 8 on the horizon. Android tablets seem mostly to be at the low end of the price range for tablets, and increasingly i read about developers discontinuing android versions of their apps - or never offering them- because of platform compatibility issues.

I would feel much better about spending $1200 for a waterproof windows 8 tablet than a waterproof android tablet, and I think Panasonic might recognize that a lot of people will feel that way.

So, that's a long way of explaining why the delayed launch of the android device may not mean the same thing for a windows 8 device.


Hmm, For many purposes, as long as you have a good working version of Remote Desktop then the device platform really doesn't matter all that much....

Yeah, the delays are the drag here. my understanding is it is primarily FCC issues. I know they shipped demos, I'm looking at one this afternoon.


Excuse my ignorance.

How does the remote desktop work and cope with different interfaces? A mouse on laptop and touch on pad?



#121 Heriberto

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 10:27 AM





The Toughpad A1 (10-inch) is shipping end of October on pre-orders. Will have Broadband as an option. It will be Android 4.0. The bigger news is the 7-inch B1 will ship February sporting WINDOWS 8! Just spoke with their rep.


I'll believe it when I see it, I've spoken to the rep 3 times this year, each time with a promise that it will be released end of next month and yet to see anything, last correspondence was that they would be shipped end of August. I'm all for getting something right before releasing it to the market but this is getting to be a joke. My first correspondence with the rep was 1/1/2012, 10 months later and yet to see a damn thing. Was really keen on purchasing one of these but have been put of by the continued delays.


Well, a waterproof windows 8 tablet would be awesome - assuming it's the full windows 8, and not the more limited RT version.

I also was thinking of getting an android Toughpad, but I'm glad i didn't/couldn't.

I have to wonder if the reason these android toughpads got delayed (cancelled?) is because the market for a $1000-1200 or more android tablet is pretty small - especially with windows 8 on the horizon. Android tablets seem mostly to be at the low end of the price range for tablets, and increasingly i read about developers discontinuing android versions of their apps - or never offering them- because of platform compatibility issues.

I would feel much better about spending $1200 for a waterproof windows 8 tablet than a waterproof android tablet, and I think Panasonic might recognize that a lot of people will feel that way.

So, that's a long way of explaining why the delayed launch of the android device may not mean the same thing for a windows 8 device.


Hmm, For many purposes, as long as you have a good working version of Remote Desktop then the device platform really doesn't matter all that much....

Yeah, the delays are the drag here. my understanding is it is primarily FCC issues. I know they shipped demos, I'm looking at one this afternoon.


Excuse my ignorance.

How does the remote desktop work and cope with different interfaces? A mouse on laptop and touch on pad?


It just replicates the screen of the remote computer and turns your device into an input and display device. All software runs on the other computer. It's similar to "cloud" computing, or what they call "thin clients", where you are working on a dumb terminal and all the software and data is on a server.

#122 Drop Bear.

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:38 AM

Ahh Ok.
Yes I guess that is what I was asking about.

I imagine using a touch device on say a win7 / vista /xp remote desktop would be awkward as they are not really designed for touch.

Now that win 8 is out I can sort of see how any touch device should be able to remote desktop into a win8 pc / laptop.

Cheers.

#123 kiwi_jon

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:51 AM

I imagine using a touch device on say a win7 / vista /xp remote desktop would be awkward as they are not really designed for touch.

Cheers.


Not at all. The Remote Desktop apps for Android and iOS use touch gestures to simulate the mouse functions. I use my tablet to remote into my WINx clients desktops all the time.

#124 Dr Jekyll

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:43 AM

Does anyone run iregatta on a root nook simple touch (glowlight )?
I already have an ipad but looking for on other device to use in sunlight ... e ink technology seems more appropriate ...
Thanks


#125 allen

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

Does anyone run iregatta on a root nook simple touch (glowlight )?
I already have an ipad but looking for on other device to use in sunlight ... e ink technology seems more appropriate ...
Thanks


I have been looking into the possibility of using a kindle as a screen for StartLine and there are some people working on similar idea but it is not clear it can work. For one thing, when you update these ink displays they flash black. If you don't update them, they leave a ghost. They are also slow. It might be "good enough" as a remote screen talking to a faster phone or RasberryPi but seems a long way off if even possible. This video shows the basic problem on a rooted Nook YouTube. However, here is someone that seems to have made progress by restricting the output to either black or white (no gray pixels) YouTube. If anyone has done what you are asking, I would also love to know.

I wrote StartLine to be as easy to read in sunlight as possible. I found iRegatta unusable in sunlight in my race testing. You can easily read StartLine in sunlight on a hand held phone. StartLine only gets into trouble in sunlight if you try and mount a tablet on a bulkhead because you get bright reflections off the cockpit sole. With a phone in your hand, you can control the reflections and the display has such high contrast that you can read it. There are several articles on this subject from testing I have done on L-36.com. However, StartLine and iRegatta are different products. StartLine is optimized as a stand alone GPS based race instrument (starts and waypoints). iRegatta has sexy displays, talks, communicates with other instruments over NEMA. StartLine, on the other hand, has all the sex appeal of a knot meter. Different animals.

Allen
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#126 ProaSailor

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 06:21 PM

I have been looking into the possibility of using a kindle as a screen for StartLine and there are some people working on similar idea but it is not clear it can work. For one thing, when you update these ink displays they flash black. If you don't update them, they leave a ghost. They are also slow. It might be "good enough" as a remote screen talking to a faster phone or RasberryPi but seems a long way off if even possible.


Seen this? KindleBerry Pi
Posted Image

Some evidence of the ghosting display issue you mentioned?



#127 allen

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 07:22 PM


I have been looking into the possibility of using a kindle as a screen for StartLine and there are some people working on similar idea but it is not clear it can work. For one thing, when you update these ink displays they flash black. If you don't update them, they leave a ghost. They are also slow. It might be "good enough" as a remote screen talking to a faster phone or RasberryPi but seems a long way off if even possible.


Seen this? KindleBerry Pi
Posted Image

Some evidence of the ghosting display issue you mentioned?



I have seen that. Like I said it looks like it is a long way off.

At some point you just get a Rock Box Blue and hope that time to the line is included in a future release. It is upgradable and they are working on new features as I type.

Mounting a tablet below deck is working well for me. For my winter racing where I am tactician rather than skipper (OPB) I plan on taking an old Nexus-One and covering all the seams with million-dollar-tape to make it water resistant.

Allen
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#128 Ocean View

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 11:59 PM

The Toughpad CF-FZ A1 Android is now released in OZ

Price is around $1,580 with 3G modem included

Specs below

  • 10.1 inch anti-glare low-reflection screen and 500 nit brightness LCD which can be viewed in sunlit conditions
  • Multi-touch screen and stylus which is operable even when wet, and when the user has gloves on
  • Docking capabilities
  • Sealed ports: microUSB, microSDHC, microHDMI, headphone/mic
  • Five megapixel rear and front cameras with LED flash
  • Dedicated security core in the chip provides encryption, ensuring the security of sensitive corporate and defense data
  • Security circuitry to shut down tablet in the event of physical tampering
  • FIPS 140-x security compliant
  • Rooting protection
  • Trusted boot
  • Withstands 1.2 metre drops
  • Operational between -10 and +50 degrees Celsius
  • IP65 sealed against dust and water ingression
  • GPS and optional embedded 3G mobile broadband
  • 10 hour replaceable battery


#129 Heriberto

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 03:16 AM

Thanks OV. I just had a call in to the local US rep and they aren't shipping yet. Will follow up Monday.

#130 Heriberto

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:02 AM

Toughpads now shipping in US. Ordered one today with Verizon service on it and should get the SOB in ten days.

#131 nq66

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:28 AM

i picked my fza1 up on the 14 december a few litle setup probs with internet but the teck helped out.The screen isnt as bright as i thought it might have been but still much better than other tabets will let you know progressvery nice unit.

#132 us7070

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

Toughpads now shipping in US. Ordered one today with Verizon service on it and should get the SOB in ten days.


Do you know if they are planning a Windows 8 Pro Toughpad?

#133 Heriberto

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 12:25 AM

I was told by the distributor that yes, they are planning a Windows tablet and it may even be the 7-inch screen device they had originally said would be Android.

In short, vaporware until it ships, which is why I didn't put down money until they told me they were shipping..

#134 us7070

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:58 AM

I was told by the distributor that yes, they are planning a Windows tablet and it may even be the 7-inch screen device they had originally said would be Android.

In short, vaporware until it ships, which is why I didn't put down money until they told me they were shipping..


a 7 inch tablet sounds more like Windows 8 RT than Windows 8 Pro

#135 FromTheRail

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:01 PM

The Panasonic B1 has now been released, along with a a Windows 8 Pro tablet called the G1

http://www.engadget....dows-8-android/

#136 Heriberto

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:46 PM

The Panasonic B1 has now been released, along with a a Windows 8 Pro tablet called the G1

http://www.engadget....dows-8-android/


Are these demos or full on release? The link is kind of a Panasonic handjob.

#137 FromTheRail

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:05 AM


The Panasonic B1 has now been released, along with a a Windows 8 Pro tablet called the G1

http://www.engadget....dows-8-android/


Are these demos or full on release? The link is kind of a Panasonic handjob.


on sale in February

the B1 for £591+vat or £706+vat for the 3g version

the G1 for £1582+vat or £1730+vat for the 3g version



#138 us7070

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:03 AM

i like the windows 8 one - but at nearly $3k...

still, i think we will see a lot of them on boats next year.

what's the screen resolution?

#139 us7070

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:06 AM

found the answer - display looks nice., but i don't know if i believe 8hrs battery life for an i5 chip -


• Operating System: Windows 8 Pro
• Processor: 3rd Generation Intel Core i5-3437U vPro™ 1.9GHz up to 2.9GHz with Intel® Turbo Boost Technology
• Memory: 128-256GB SSD, 4-8GB RAM, optional micro SDXC
• Rugged: MIL-STD-810G, 4' drop, IP65, 14° to 122°F (operational temp range)
• Display: 10.1", sunlight viewable, touch screen and active digitizer, 800nit, WUXGA (1920x1200)
• Battery: 8.0 hours (user-replaceable)
• Dimensions: 10.6" x 7.4" x 0.75"
• Weight: 1.1kg
• Wireless: Bluetooth V4.0, 802.11 a/b/g/n Wi-Fi, optional embedded 4G LTE or 3G
• I/O: Full size USB 3.0, HDMI, optional micro SDXC, Full size USB 2.0, wired LAN, true serial port or dedicated GPS.

#140 Heriberto

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:59 AM

"On sale February".

I was told in September the A1 would be on sale in October. Just stated shipping beginning of January.... :rolleyes:

When they say "we can drop ship it this afternoon", I'll probably get the small Android. That W8 one is too rich for my blood.

#141 bowman81

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:45 AM

I wouldn't believe a god damn thing Panasonic said, I've been in contact with the local rep ( I had to chase him every couple of months, didn't seem too interested in selling a unit) and the release date was moved 3 times, now the Australian unit wont be 4G compatible. I was really looking forward to owning one of these but with the BS I have been fed and the downgrade on the unit in Aus because they can't be fucked making it compatible with our cell network they wont get a cent out of me.

#142 Heriberto

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:38 AM

I wouldn't believe a god damn thing Panasonic said, I've been in contact with the local rep ( I had to chase him every couple of months, didn't seem too interested in selling a unit) and the release date was moved 3 times, now the Australian unit wont be 4G compatible. I was really looking forward to owning one of these but with the BS I have been fed and the downgrade on the unit in Aus because they can't be fucked making it compatible with our cell network they wont get a cent out of me.


Wow, sounds like you were talking to the same guy I was. Their sales suck, but I've had real good experience using their computers for years. It may not be the fastest or flashest, but solid bombproof.

#143 bowman81

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:44 AM


I wouldn't believe a god damn thing Panasonic said, I've been in contact with the local rep ( I had to chase him every couple of months, didn't seem too interested in selling a unit) and the release date was moved 3 times, now the Australian unit wont be 4G compatible. I was really looking forward to owning one of these but with the BS I have been fed and the downgrade on the unit in Aus because they can't be fucked making it compatible with our cell network they wont get a cent out of me.


Wow, sounds like you were talking to the same guy I was. Their sales suck, but I've had real good experience using their computers for years. It may not be the fastest or flashest, but solid bombproof.


I think this is the problem, our product is so good we don't have to treat the customer well, they will buy it because they have to. Hopefully I can find another rugged tablet so I don't have to give in and buy one from them....

#144 sreiz

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

Anyway, Panasonic has still not released a 12V charger for their toughpads. Not really suitable for use on board....

#145 Ocean View

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:32 AM

US7070
The new i5 chips use a lot less power than the old ones - so you may find that in max power save mode it could do 8 hours.

that chip uses 17 watts TDP (Total Dissipated Power) compared to up to 95 watts for some of the older i5 chips

Some details here http://www.cpu-world... processor.html

Bowman81
Re the rep not getting back to you
Rugged devices are designed to be used in commercial / industrial / rugged business environments and the reps will be focused on 100 plus unit deals - so you really are below his radar ;)

As for other brands - there are heaps out there - some better than others - some not as good as others - and some not as rugged or waterproof as you deisre - and some - well they are just ordinary and should not be called rugged.

sreiz
re a charger
Panasonic don't need to release a 12V adaptor - you can either get laptop type adaptor from the local / jaycar electronics shop - that can output 19v (Which we use with a toughbook quite successfully)
or get a good quality one buy one of these.
http://www.lindelectronics.com/cgi-bin/store/shop.cgi/!ORDERID!/aaa/Panasonic/dbx_gen_mfg_products?industry=

Trust that info helps

#146 nq66

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 06:58 AM

Ocean View
The FZA1 has a square connection not the round and i dont see it on there list.

#147 Ocean View

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Posted 15 January 2013 - 11:32 PM

Sometimes everyone's website is not always up to date

See here.
http://www.panasonic...accessories.asp

#148 sreiz

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:03 PM

Hi Ocean View, unfortunately the touchpad does not have any standard connector so although there are plenty of chargers that deliver the required 12V/2A, the connector is not a standard variety found in the public domaine. And of course, the Panasonic customer service does not reply to emails sent on their official web site....

#149 bbr

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:53 PM

Anyway, Panasonic has still not released a 12V charger for their toughpads. Not really suitable for use on board....


Just buy a small 12v to 220v inverter... there's a bunch of them available with cigarette lighter plugs and cost less than 30€... You can plug anything into them and some of them even have an additional USB plug as well... You don't need a seperate 12v adaptor, just plug your existing AC adapter in and it works just like a wall outlet...

Bill

#150 Ocean View

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 11:52 PM

I see the issue - pic below
As per above - Grab the Lind adaptor
Or use a 12v to 220 / 240 v inverter
Personally I don't like 240 on a boat while sailing/racing - 1 it's a dangerous voltage, 2 it uses more 12v battery power due to inverter losses.
Posted Image

#151 muppet

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 12:42 AM

Cut the low voltage side, put in a waterproof 2 pin plug on the cut end and charger side of the 240v and the 12v and you can use the tail for both.

#152 ProaSailor

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 05:59 AM

Just buy a small 12v to 220v inverter... there's a bunch of them available with cigarette lighter plugs and cost less than 30€... You can plug anything into them and some of them even have an additional USB plug as well... You don't need a seperate 12v adaptor, just plug your existing AC adapter in and it works just like a wall outlet...

Bill


PWR+ makes a series of 12v DC adapters for laptops; I have one for a Dell and it works great! At Amazon.com

#153 Heriberto

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:41 AM

Cut the low voltage side, put in a waterproof 2 pin plug on the cut end and charger side of the 240v and the 12v and you can use the tail for both.


Ding.

Just got mine. It ROCKS! Until they release a twelve volt, you can cannabalize like described. I'm betting the docking station will be better when it comes out because as usual the cover for the plug is destined to fail like all other tough products. They need to up their game on that.

#154 Heriberto

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:47 AM

Sometimes everyone's website is not always up to date

See here.
http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughpad/us/a1-accessories.asp


Awesome! Thank you for the links! My panasonic distributor knew nothing about accessories. Excuses about target markets are weak.

#155 Heriberto

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:53 AM

Need a formfit ballistic nylon case with shoulder strap and ballistic nylon screen cover that velcros back out of the way.

#156 bowman81

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

snip

Bowman81
Re the rep not getting back to you
Rugged devices are designed to be used in commercial / industrial / rugged business environments and the reps will be focused on 100 plus unit deals - so you really are below his radar ;)


snip


While I understand this I don't accept it as a reason and quite frankly the attitude pisses me off, how the hell does he know who I am. The funny thing is, while I am looking for this for me personally, I also work for a company that may require 100 or more of these things to be used in a manufacturing environment but have been burnt. The short of it is, you never know who you're talking to, never let a lead go cold in sales

#157 Heriberto

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 08:49 PM

What bowman said. Nice unit but BIG, yo.

#158 Ocean View

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:49 AM

Don't disagree bowman81 - but they also need to qualify their leads to maintain focus.
If you've been talking to the wrong person (ie enterprise focused) - They won't put a 1 x device enquiry high on the list when their sales target is $x million per year.
Otherwise they'd never make their targets. When new devices are released - lots of noise occurs - and lots of it is often not that serious. Some is - some isn't.
But lots of time can be wasted chasing the wrong ones.
I'm not saying that your enquiry is not serious - but to the reps it's about qualifying the leads and focusing on them that counts. Which is not always caused by a poor attitude.
Maybe he should have qualified you better

As to the device changing spec 4G etc -
it's not that easy to make a device to suit multiple countries telco networks and work out which device / country will sell it the most and then get tested in time by the relevant authorities.
It's not just the manufacturers who delay things - they submit the device to the AMCA testing authority - which may then take 3 months to be tested and certified or rejected for re-submission based on a technicality - which is all stuff that is out of their control.


#159 bowman81

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:37 AM

Don't disagree bowman81 - but they also need to qualify their leads to maintain focus.
If you've been talking to the wrong person (ie enterprise focused) - They won't put a 1 x device enquiry high on the list when their sales target is $x million per year.
Otherwise they'd never make their targets. When new devices are released - lots of noise occurs - and lots of it is often not that serious. Some is - some isn't.
But lots of time can be wasted chasing the wrong ones.
I'm not saying that your enquiry is not serious - but to the reps it's about qualifying the leads and focusing on them that counts. Which is not always caused by a poor attitude.
Maybe he should have qualified you better

As to the device changing spec 4G etc -
it's not that easy to make a device to suit multiple countries telco networks and work out which device / country will sell it the most and then get tested in time by the relevant authorities.
It's not just the manufacturers who delay things - they submit the device to the AMCA testing authority - which may then take 3 months to be tested and certified or rejected for re-submission based on a technicality - which is all stuff that is out of their control.


Sorry if this comes across the wrong way but your response is reading like you're the rep or you know him well. I'm not asking to be called every time there is an update on a new product, but when i asked numerous times to be kept informed I'd expect at least a courtesy email once in the 8 months I was chasing this device, every time I had to initiate contact and that is just poor customer service and based on some of the other peoples comments in this thread I'm not the only one to experience this with panasonic.

Yea, so they fucked up, all they had to do is look at the shit storm that come over apple when they release the ipad in Australia to know it wold be a problem yet they advertise it with 4g capabilities then back track when they find they can't provide, I guess at least they didn't say they could provide 4g and then fall short.

I'm sorry, they pissed me off and it is going to take a lot more for me to forget that.

#160 Ocean View

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 11:03 PM

I'm not "the" rep nor do I know him. :blink: But as I work in the rugged space that possibly explains the similar response. :rolleyes:
We also get pretty cheesed off with products taking a lot longer then desired or without promised features - but that does not condone his lack of getting back to you.
Getting to play with the mock ups, alpha and beta models as they are being developed helps make it less frustrating for us - it occurs with every manufacturer
Some are more pedantic than others - which has it's own frustrations- but if it's reliable and functional once released - then the pain is soon forgotten.
If I can help out let me know.

#161 eric e

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 10:32 AM

our asus TF200 is still doing well

that model is able to really bump up it's screen brightness when needed, certainly more than the TF101 we had before

when our kids were at an indoor swim school i was surprised to see that the coach was using an ipad that was zipped inside a clear to protect it from the humidity and maybe give it a little drop protection...

so i bought a plastic zipped clear file from the $1 shop and sure enough the asus touch screen also works fine inside that while i walk around outside in the rain

so yes, i think all of the ipads and android tablets can find a place on a boat

with the risk of smacking them up, dropping them overboard, limited life of lithium batteries, speed of software and hardware upgrades etc i'd think you couldn't go wrong buying the cheapest, most recent android tablet with true gps and simply expecting to replace it every 1 or 2 years

#162 allen

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 04:04 PM

At the risk of repeating what I have said elsewhere, a smart phone inside a waterproof case works OK on a boat. I use a Nexus-One, which is several years old with StartLine, my Android racing app. The thing about a phone is that you are holding it and you can move it around to control the reflections. We got another 1st place Saturday using StartLine in the mid winter series at South Beach Yacht Club and I had no problem seeing the display on this bright sunny day. (Shameless plug -- we got the best start of the fleet again)

That said StartLine has very large high contrast displays which helps a lot. This last summer I was unable to use iRegatta as I could not see the buttons no matter how I held the display for example. And much of the detailed text on the Navionics charts are so small you can't see them no matter where you are. So, the app makes a huge difference.

A tablet that you have mounted is more of a problem as reflections can make it basically impossible to see what is going on. With a tablet, mounting it in the cabin so that you don't have bright reflections works great but obviously restricts the viewing angles, assuming the text is large as it is with StartLine.

Allen
L-36.com

#163 Speng

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:37 PM

To be honest it doesn't seem like an OS question but more like a application question. From my browsing around you either want a PC application that you can use full on vector charts and intergrate multiple instruments the way people've been doing for years or it's an IPad with iNavx (as opposed to Navionics etc) which is raster but otherwise seems like the killer app for navigation but then you have to get an iPad. I like the Androids because you can always bump them up in memory with a simple mem card as opposed to being dependent on Apple's stupid cloud and overpriced expanded memory options and it's straightforward to get data to and from another computer via Bluetooth or USB. I just bought an iPad for my Dad (long story) and there's no convenient way to move data from my PC to it without installing something on my PC which is unacceptable. Win8 RT doesn't have a lot of software for it yet (when I went to my local Windows store to check one out b4 Xmas they didn't even have Firefox/Thunderbird available on their software store yet). Windows 8 Pro is going to be more the go for legacy apps but one wonders how many tablet form factors will be available with that.

The software devs prefer the Apple model AFAIK cause they have fewer OSs to develop for and hopefully that'll be true for Win8 as well. The hackers prefer Android cause you can do all kinds of cool stuff if you root. In my experience with my Android phone there's a lot of half assed apps out there for the Android but then again you often get what you pay for.

#164 us7070

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:14 PM

Speng - maybe I am misunderstanding your comments, but just to clarify: Navionics vector charts are compatible with iNavX. They are not free though.

I have been looking around a bit, and it doesn't seem that the android navigation apps are as good as what's available in iOS.

Is there any android app that is as good as iNavX?

also, _some_ files can be moved from the ipad/iphone to a PC without iTunes - pictures, and also the GRIB's from the Weather track app, although for the GRIB's, you do need another program..., but it doesn't have to be iTunes. Photos can be dragged and dropped.

#165 allen

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:50 PM

Some developers prefer Apple because you have to support like 3 devices. When I upload StartLine, it says it is comparable with something like 2,300 devices. I have tested it on 4 phones and two tablets but not the other 2294 devices. :-) That said, there is no way in hell I am going to put my app on Apple products. I can't stand Apple.

Navionics works on Android devices in case there was any question.

Allen

#166 us7070

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:05 AM

Navionics works on Android devices in case there was any question.

Allen


but the Navionics app doesn't have nearly the functionality of iNavX - at least when comparing the iOS versions.

what i want to know, is..., what do people consider to be the best marine navigation app for android, and how does it compare to iNavx on iOS devices?

#167 Heriberto

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 06:58 PM

After a little over a week with this thing, I gotta say it is damn nice. Not perfect, but damn nice.

#168 Rando

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 05:51 PM

This is great info, thanks to contributors.

For the android tablets, what software are you running to control the laptop down below?

Or, what software for remotely controlling one Windows computer by another?



#169 Bermerlin

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:01 PM

I have been experimenting with a Nexus 7 tablet in the cockpit, using a mount similar to what the last America Cup tacticians were using attached to their body. Definitely the way to go:

http://sailboatinstr...nt-display.html

 



#170 us7070

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Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:11 PM

a 10" android waterproof and daylight viewable panasonic toughpad just went for about $535 on ebay



#171 muppet

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

I have been experimenting with a Nexus 7 tablet in the cockpit, using a mount similar to what the last America Cup tacticians were using attached to their body. Definitely the way to go:

http://sailboatinstr...nt-display.html

 

Did you write the app?



#172 Bermerlin

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 07:23 PM

Yes.

I have been experimenting with a Nexus 7 tablet in the cockpit, using a mount similar to what the last America Cup tacticians were using attached to their body. Definitely the way to go:

http://sailboatinstr...nt-display.html

 

Did you write the app?



#173 crashdog

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Posted 20 October 2013 - 09:07 AM

This appears to be a pretty good app, although I think it will need a 10" tab.  Woudl be good to put on the mast bracket, although it might need to be set up in landscape to be visible to the crew.

 

Where is the app?

 

Back to OS.  I use an Adam tab in a plastic bag.  ok not just a plastic bag.  One of those bombproofs.  PixelQi screen so that I can see it in bright sunlight.  The brighter the better.  In that mode, i can watch it all day long and barely make a hit on the battery.  Processing isn't up to current snuff, but frankly, what do we actually need  Generally, its a slave to the nexus system.  If you want to navigate / tacticate then use a toughbook or dell XT2 variant.  Big fan of Asus, use it on my desktop, but daylight readable is a priority in sailing. 



#174 mike_new

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 10:57 AM

The Sony Xperia Z is waterproof and has a good screen.

It is the one I am planning to test.

 

Expect it to be much better from all points of view than the Panasonic CF-08, even though not as rugged.



#175 us7070

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:20 PM

The Sony Xperia Z is waterproof and has a good screen.

It is the one I am planning to test.

 

Expect it to be much better from all points of view than the Panasonic CF-08, even though not as rugged.

 

i was reading about the sony, but didn't see anything about daylight viewability.



#176 tweaker

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:43 AM

http://www.meetearl.com/#preorder

What do you guys think of this tablet? Anybody else see this?

#177 carcrash

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:28 AM

An iPad is the only way to go.

#178 IStream

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Posted 12 December 2013 - 10:04 PM

Took the words right out of my mouth, Nankhumma.

 

FWIW, I just got a Nexus 7 on a Black Friday deal and like it a lot. The screen is damn sharp (though not bright enough for full sun) and it's very fast. I'm coming from the iPad/iPhone world so it took a little getting used to. I much prefer Apple's home button on the face rather than the upper right side but that's about my only complaint. The best user profile is if you already use or plan to use gmail, Chrome, google calendar, or other Google services. In that case, it integrates really well with all your information and can't be beat.



#179 armido

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:08 PM

I've read every post in this thread, and the most frequently asked questions and comments concern cost, reliability, support (hardware & software), O.S., and available marine applications. 

 

I have not used an Apple product nor would I buy one.  Reasons mentioned by others include limited hardware interconnectivity, an O.S. and business plan that limits what users can do, price and except for some laptops can only run proprietary Apple programs.  My last choice would be an iPad.  Why?  The tablet cannot run OpenCPN and there is no plan to port OpenCPN to this device. 

 

But wait, you say!  Neither does OpenCPN run on android!  You are right, but OpenCPN is under development for use on android devices.  Also, OpenCPN can be run on android tablets now in a Linux 'chroot' environment. 

 

Price wise, very good android tablets are widely available and affordable.  I paid between five and six hundred U.S.D for my Motorola Xoom: 

 

•10.1” Multi-touch HD screen, 16:9 widescreen (1280x800 resolution, 150p per inch)
•1GHz (x2) Dual-core NVIDIA Tegra mobile processor (each core runs at 1 GHz)
•32GB Internal memory
•1GB RAM
•Unlocked 3G GSM tablet for use on AT&T, T-Mobile and other GSM networks(data only, separate data plan purchase required)
•Quadband 3G GSM/UMTS: 850/1900/2100; HSDPA, HSUPA
•WiFi 802.11 b/g/n
•Bluetooth 2.1 with A2DP stereo music streaming
•5MP rear-facing camera with flash, digital zoom and 720p HD video capture
•2MP front-facing video-chat camera with indicator light
•Android 3.0 Honeycomb OS (upgradeable to 3.2)
•Multi-touch holographic user interface with 5 customizable home screens, live widget, application shortcuts and more
•Gyroscope, barometer, accelerometer, e-compass and adaptive lighting
•Onboard GPS, Integrated Google Maps 5.0 with 3D interaction, Google Talk, Google eBooks
•Android Market app store with video, games and apps
•Adobe Flash Player 10.2 support for websites, videos and more
•Desktop-like web browser
•NVIDIA integrated graphics, 1080p HD video playback
•Audio: MP3, AAC/AAC+/eAAC+
•Video: MPEG4, H.264/H.263
•Micro USB port (not for charging)
•3.5mm audio jack
•HDMI port
•MicroSD card slot 32GB max. (functionality pending future software upgrade)
•3250mAh lithium-ion rechargeable battery
•Up to 10 hours WiFi web browsing, 10 hours video playback, 3.3 days MP3 playback
•Dimensions: 9.8” x 6.6” x 0.5”
•Weight: 1.61 lbs. 

 

Reviewers complained about the Xooms weight.  But, I can attest to the fact this translates into durability.  I've dropped mine at least 5 times from heights between 3 and 5 feet.  No damage.  Used Xooms are available between $150 and $300.  Google it, but steer clear of CMDA models once sold on contract from phone companies. 

 

Of course the Xoom is not the only choice out there, so shop around. 

 

Now, back to the top. 

 

Android devices have a large development community, and my favourite is xda-developers http://forum.xda-developers.com/index.php  The folks there work voluntarily on projects designed to fully utilize the hardware capabilities of most android devices.  If your device has been orphaned by the manufacturer and no further updates will be forthcoming, odds are developers at xda are at work creating ROMs that continue to improve and add features.  There is a lot more I could say about this, but will leave learning more about android development to you. 

 

What's required before you can benefit from the ROMs under development by xda, and before you can enjoy using OpenCPN on your android device?  The device must be rooted. 

 

To learn more see my instructions here:  http://opencpn.org/ocpn/node/193



#180 red_sky_sf

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:32 PM

I have been reviewing the uSoft Nexus box. The display is brighter than anything out there.   Looks promising for an ondeck solution in a waterproof IP68 case.



#181 sully75

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 02:09 AM

Anyone have a 2014 update for what they are using tablet wise for navigation? 

 

Apps or tablet reviews or recommendations?



#182 Ajax

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 04:56 PM

A friend and I have tried the iPad2 and iPad Air (mostly because that's what we had laying around, not because of blind allegiance to the Holy Fruit).

 

Once you rugged-ize these things in a Lifeproof or Otterbox case, I'll tell you something that they DON'T like-  Extended periods of direct sunlight, even in lower ambient temperatures.

The glass screen acts like a greenhouse window pane, and they overheat and shutdown. The black case acts like a heatsink and soaks up energy.

COTS tablets are not quite ready for primetime, in the marine environment.

 

Some steps you can take to mitigate the heat issue-  Mount the tablet on a swing-arm bracket down in the cabin, near the companionway and flip it out for viewing when needed, or work out some sort of reflective shield or cover for the screen or the whole tablet.

 

The tablet debate is like the anchor debate, or religion. It's a personal preference.

Apps- I'm a big OpenCPN fan, but since it's not available for iPad, I'm trying iSailor, iNavx and Navionics.

 

iSailor seems pretty good, but some of the symbology is a little weird. I haven't found "VMG" in it, yet. I'm still poking around.






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