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#1 backstayman2

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 02:56 PM

Hi, I just got back into racing after a 25-year hiatus and despite trying to read the rule book, I am having difficulty understanding a few basic rules. I have zero desire to be involved in protests; I want to become known as a clean competitor. Could I have a bit of advice on a few scenarios I ran into a few times at Charleston Race Week:

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?

2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?

3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

5. Not sure if this is related to #4, but coming into the weather mark, as soon as port tackers tacked, they would yell "tack completed". What is the significance of this? I'm thinking they are trying to tell you that it is now a simple overtaking-boat situation and as such you have to avoid them. Correct?

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?



I realize some of these are pretty basic, but despite reading the rule book I just can't seem to remember how these very common situations are supposed to work in the real world. Any guidance very much appreciated.

#2 Dog Watch

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:11 PM

Oh dear!

Backstayman. You are forgiven, since you really are a newbie to this forum. However, if you've been around to read some other rules discussions here, you'd see that each question could lead to 100 posts in this forum.

That's 600 posts to answer you! This is going to be disorganised chaos!

I suggest we do this:

Q1 - Posts 3-20
Q2 - Posts 21-40
Q3 - Posts 41-60
Q4 - Posts 61-80
Q5 - Posts 81-100

Q6 - Posts 101-120

20 posts per question...stuck to religiously.


Oh, as is traditional in this forum, the payment for any question asked is a picture of your wife's or girlfriend's tits. Or, fuck off newbie.

DW

#3 backstayman2

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:19 PM

Oh dear!

Backstayman. You are forgiven, since you really are a newbie. However, if you've been around to read some other rules discussions, you'd see that each question could lead to 100 posts in this forum.

That's 600 posts to answer you! This is going to be disorganised chaos!

I suggest we do this:

Q1 - Posts 3-20
Q2 - Posts 21-40
Q3 - Posts 41-60
Q4 - Posts 61-80
Q5- Posts 81-100

20 posts per question...stuck to religiously.

Oh, as is traditional in this forum, the payment for any question asked is a picture of your wife's or girlfriend's tits.

DW



Here are the tits. My wife is 96 lbs. and looks pretty damn good for age 40! She even likes to sail a little. I will post some beach pix of her or something if you want, if you guys can get me back in the saddle. She says it's fine as long as I don't show her face, so we're all cooperating here. Whatever it takes.

Now can I get some help?

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#4 Dog Watch

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:22 PM

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?


Wow! Hmm....ok then!

You don't OWE them anything. However, you must 'avoid contact' (Rule 14). So if he comes down to avoid the committee boat, you must do as well. Then you protest him.

If you have a boat to leeward, you are sandwiched. There's not much you can do but minimise the inevitable damage or injury. Assert your rights by calling the windward boat up, or 'no room'.

Some would say it is better to concentrate on meeting your own obligations to keep clear of the leeward boat first, instead of avoiding the windward one. However, I think you just need to do your best. If stopping is the 'best' you can do to avoid contact, then that's what you do...then protest.

The meat in the sandwich rarely is the guilty party.

Take care of rule 14 - avoid contact when able. Be fair.

DW



I have zero desire to be involved in protests;




This is difficult. I'm not saying go looking for protests. I'm not even saying 'protest every little thing'. However, if you're not prepared to assert the rules when appropriate and with those persistent cheaters, then you'll get nowhere and have no fun. It's a personal thing...

#5 Snaggletooth

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:25 PM

However, if you've been around to read some other rules discussions here, you'd see that each question could lead to 100 posts in this forum.

That's 600 posts to answer you! This is going to be disorganised chaos!

+! :) By youselfe a nise booke that descusses riules, than come backe an aske thiose remanning qestiones. Asksing them heare wille scarre and coinfiuse you.

:)

#6 Dog Watch

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:28 PM


However, if you've been around to read some other rules discussions here, you'd see that each question could lead to 100 posts in this forum.

That's 600 posts to answer you! This is going to be disorganised chaos!

+! :) By youselfe a nise booke that descusses riules, than come backe an aske thiose remanning qestiones. Asksing them heare wille scarre and coinfiuse you.

:)



Awww. Snaggletooth. You just wasted one of his Question 1 posts.......

Ooops....so have I!

Posted ImagePosted Image



#7 J24_guy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:32 PM



However, if you've been around to read some other rules discussions here, you'd see that each question could lead to 100 posts in this forum.

That's 600 posts to answer you! This is going to be disorganised chaos!

+! :) By youselfe a nise booke that descusses riules, than come backe an aske thiose remanning qestiones. Asksing them heare wille scarre and coinfiuse you.

:)



Awww. Snaggletooth. You just wasted one of his Question 1 posts.......

Ooops....so have I!

Posted ImagePosted Image





Wait, the guy has a sexy wife who is willing to cooperate to get him the help he needs, and we're got gonna help a brother out?

Let me take #3 -- that sucks, it's terrible, terrible sportsmanship, but there is no rule against it.

Now can we have a few more pictures of her? Please?

#8 my nuts

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:40 PM

step 1: buy a red flag
step 2: have it somewhere really close (on your backstay, for example)
step 3: don't be afraid to yank it out and say loudly: "PROTEST, Bow(or sail) number XXXX"

it is a common misconception that protesting or being protested makes anyone any less of a good sailor or unclean. this is a self policing sport, and someone who has been out of the game for a while will just be pushed around by more aggressive sailors. there are multiple ways to be involved in protests, not all of them are onerous. 1) making the hail and pulling the flag on the course, 2) informing RC after the race, 3) filing a protest form, 4) arbitration, 5) protest hearing, 6) appeal. at each and every point in the formal process, you may elect not to continue with the next step, and the protestee may assume a penalty. it's a long way to getting to the hearing (which most of us want to avoid), and I haven't even mentioned speaking to the protestee at the party. this process allows for us to call a foul and have it taken care of within the rules, with no hurt feelings or building grudges. however, if you never do the first step, then there's no way to do the rest.

when sailing, make your intentions known. it is not required for you to say: "Starboard," "No Room," "Don't go in there," etc. but it is not a bad idea either.

do yourself a favor and don't respond to a "tack or cross" hail. yes it was a dick move on their part, no it wasn't illegal.

forget about marks for a minute, in general, if you're on starboard and have to take an avoiding action so you don't hit a boat when she tacks in front of you, it is worth protesting, however, don't hit their boat.

PS, welcome, its nice to have someone abide by the forum rules.

#9 The Advocate

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:45 PM

He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.

#10 Presuming Ed

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:45 PM

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?

Do what you can to comply with 14 (avoiding contact), and protest if you think another boat has broken a rule.

2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?

Protest. Easier to win this one with an outside witness. Without one, it's he said, she said.

3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?

Arguably a breach of rule 2. And a downside of tack or cross.

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

A culture of poor rules observance in a fleet can be changed, but it's an uphill battle. You need the respected guys to take a lead, fleet captains to stress rules observance, hold seminars, a spell of lots of people protesting...and so on.

5. Not sure if this is related to #4, but coming into the weather mark, as soon as port tackers tacked, they would yell "tack completed". What is the significance of this? I'm thinking they are trying to tell you that it is now a simple overtaking-boat situation and as such you have to avoid them. Correct?

Trying to psyche people out. They're still constrained by 18.3

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?
Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)


#11 backstayman2

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 03:54 PM




However, if you've been around to read some other rules discussions here, you'd see that each question could lead to 100 posts in this forum.

That's 600 posts to answer you! This is going to be disorganised chaos!

+! :) By youselfe a nise booke that descusses riules, than come backe an aske thiose remanning qestiones. Asksing them heare wille scarre and coinfiuse you.

:)



Awww. Snaggletooth. You just wasted one of his Question 1 posts.......

Ooops....so have I!

Posted ImagePosted Image





Wait, the guy has a sexy wife who is willing to cooperate to get him the help he needs, and we're got gonna help a brother out?

Let me take #3 -- that sucks, it's terrible, terrible sportsmanship, but there is no rule against it.

Now can we have a few more pictures of her? Please?



Sure why not here are a couple. We can all cooperate I think. I am on the bottom of the SA totem pole being a newbie and about the rustiest sailboat racer I know.

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#12 HobieAnarchy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:00 PM

Best. Rules. Thread. Ever.

Yeah - and what PEd and Brass said/say.

#13 zvikingz

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:01 PM

When they push their way in just scream "Mast abeam" as loud as you can.

#14 J24_guy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:03 PM

When they push their way in just scream "Mast abeam" as loud as you can.


Why do you even post this shit? It's not witty, might confuse somebody, and is just stupid. We actually for once have an interesting rules thread going here. Both because of the girl and because he's basically nailed a few key questions that if all of us could agree on, we would be operating at a higher plane. The guy even complied with forum rules AND got his wife's blessing to do so -- it's not like he is burdening SA. That's all too rare. Please stfu.

#15 ShockValue

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:03 PM

I'm very interested in learning the rules in this thread.

#16 clamslapper

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:11 PM

No wonder the OP sounds pretty mellow. If you had that little slice of heaven snuggling up with you every night, you would be too. Protest, schmotest! ("Gee, would I rather spend an hour with some angry guys in the protest room, or having cocktails with my wife? ... have to think about that.")

#17 zvikingz

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:13 PM


When they push their way in just scream "Mast abeam" as loud as you can.


Why do you even post this shit? It's not witty, might confuse somebody, and is just stupid. We actually for once have an interesting rules thread going here. Both because of the girl and because he's basically nailed a few key questions that if all of us could agree on, we would be operating at a higher plane. The guy even complied with forum rules AND got his wife's blessing to do so -- it's not like he is burdening SA. That's all too rare. Please stfu.



HAHA "higher plane" now that's funny. It really is quite simple, the way he asked the questions he has a good grasp on what is right and needs to hear that others are pushing him around. He will have to hold his ground and only move to avoid contact and then protest which he was hoping to get answers to avoid.

#18 equivocator

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:40 PM

You know more than you think you know. But it sounds like the sailors in your fleet are more aggressive than the guys you were sailing against 25 years ago. If you want to learn more about the rules, you can read a book like the one written by Dave Perry, go to a speech by someone like Dave Perry, and/or go to a rules seminar at a local club.

But based on your assessment of the rules situations described in your post, you already have a pretty good grip on the situations described:

1. From a rules perspective, there's nothing simple about the pre-start, since virtually all of the rules apply (also definition of proper course), and there are lots of boats around, too. The thing to remember when you are approaching the s/l and a boat is coming in from your WW side, is that you need to establish your heading for the RC boat before the WW boat does not have an escape route, and then communicate that fact to the WW boat. That also applies to the boat on your lee side. How the overlap was established is important, too, since you or the boat to leeward may be restricted to proper course after the starting signal, if the o/l was established from clear astern.

2.Leeward boat can luff HTW, but not beyond. And if they tacked into a leeward O/L, they must reach a close-hauled course before they can start luffing you.

3. This is a controversial issue. If you don't respond and then alter course to avoid the port-tack boat, you can always protest under Rule 10. It probably won't take many protests before the other competitors learn to respect you.
If you are close enough, you can also luff the port tacker before he completes his tack. This situation also brings to mind the tactics that you, as starboard tack boat, can employ to protect yourself. One is to accelerate as you approach the port tacker. That will let you come up as he approaches if you want to tack, and also let you foot through his lee if he does tack. Some judges think the hail, "Tack or cross" breaks rule 10.

4. Rule here is 18.4; and the tacking boat cannot force you to sail above a close-hauled course to avoid them. The tactic to prevent this is to accelerate by heading just below the mark, in order to 'close the door' by not leaving a lane on your lee bow for the port tackers to tack into. If they tack anyway, you will have plenty of speed to luff into a clear lane above them.

5. This hail is their attempt to avoid a protest under Rule 13 for "tacking too close." A tacking boat breaks Rule 13 if you need to alter course to avoid hitting them before they are on a close-hauled heading. It may be a violation of Rule 2 for a tacking boat to make this hail before they are on a close-hauled heading. The acceleration tactic described in #3 above can protect you in this situation.

6. Right. Well, actually, you have to give him mark-room, which is slightly different.

#19 backstayman2

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:50 PM

You know more than you think you know. But it sounds like the sailors in your fleet are more aggressive than the guys you were sailing against 25 years ago. If you want to learn more about the rules, you can read a book like the one written by Dave Perry, go to a speech by someone like Dave Perry, and/or go to a rules seminar at a local club.

But based on your assessment of the rules situations described in your post, you already have a pretty good grip on the situations described:

1. From a rules perspective, there's nothing simple about the pre-start, since virtually all of the rules apply (also definition of proper course), and there are lots of boats around, too. The thing to remember when you are approaching the s/l and a boat is coming in from your WW side, is that you need to establish your heading for the RC boat before the WW boat does not have an escape route, and then communicate that fact to the WW boat. That also applies to the boat on your lee side. How the overlap was established is important, too, since you or the boat to leeward may be restricted to proper course after the starting signal, if the o/l was established from clear astern.

2.Leeward boat can luff HTW, but not beyond. And if they tacked into a leeward O/L, they must reach a close-hauled course before they can start luffing you.

3. This is a controversial issue. If you don't respond and then alter course to avoid the port-tack boat, you can always protest under Rule 10. It probably won't take many protests before the other competitors learn to respect you.
If you are close enough, you can also luff the port tacker before he completes his tack. This situation also brings to mind the tactics that you, as starboard tack boat, can employ to protect yourself. One is to accelerate as you approach the port tacker. That will let you come up as he approaches if you want to tack, and also let you foot through his lee if he does tack. Some judges think the hail, "Tack or cross" breaks rule 10.

4. Rule here is 18.4; and the tacking boat cannot force you to sail above a close-hauled course to avoid them. The tactic to prevent this is to accelerate by heading just below the mark, in order to 'close the door' by not leaving a lane on your lee bow for the port tackers to tack into. If they tack anyway, you will have plenty of speed to luff into a clear lane above them.

5. This hail is their attempt to avoid a protest under Rule 13 for "tacking too close." A tacking boat breaks Rule 13 if you need to alter course to avoid hitting them before they are on a close-hauled heading. It may be a violation of Rule 2 for a tacking boat to make this hail before they are on a close-hauled heading. The acceleration tactic described in #3 above can protect you in this situation.

6. Right. Well, actually, you have to give him mark-room, which is slightly different.




Thanks for this learning.

Another question I forgot to ask: if a boat hits a mark because someone gave too little room, obviously you'd want to protest the guy who was such a cheapskate. Do you still have to do a turn then seek redress as well as protest him?

So far so good, keep 'em coming

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#20 Mambo Kings

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:51 PM

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?

Do what you can to comply with 14 (avoiding contact), and protest if you think another boat has broken a rule.

If windward boat comes in and you havent altered course and Windward boat cannot clear the cttee boat without bearing away and hitting you, then he breaks rule 11. You can luff to dissuade him, until he is overlapped with ctee boat then you cannot sail any higher.

If Leeward boat is calling "up" when you and the windward boat are already inevitably overlapped with cttee boat and cannot luff without hitting cttee boat......then hail "Rule 16" ..."Please cease your luff"


2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?

Protest. Easier to win this one with an outside witness. Without one, it's he said, she said.

A leeward boat can luff right up to HTW with all sails luffing before the start. Because there is no PC before the start.

In the unlikely event that they go beyond HTW and start to fall onto port tack, then they have to keep clear because they are tacking (rule13) and if they go all the way to new chc on port tack, then they have to keep clear port/starboard (rule10).

Most likely they didnt go above HTW, but had flapping sails and continued to luff higher.......then yes, you have to keep clear under rule 11.


3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?

Arguably a breach of rule 2. And a downside of tack or cross.

If you dipped at all, then rule 2 breach. Otherwise he just changed his mind.

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

A culture of poor rules observance in a fleet can be changed, but it's an uphill battle. You need the respected guys to take a lead, fleet captains to stress rules observance, hold seminars, a spell of lots of people protesting...and so on.

Yes you are meant to head up to avoid them, with two caveats:-
1. If you need to start to head up before they reach chc in order to avoid, then they broke either 13 or 15.
2. You do not need to head up higher than chc. Since in the starboard wall, many boats are eased off as they reach the mark....you need to be sure that you headed higher than a tightly sheeted in chc before you invoke this rule.




#21 Mambo Kings

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:53 PM

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

A culture of poor rules observance in a fleet can be changed, but it's an uphill battle. You need the respected guys to take a lead, fleet captains to stress rules observance, hold seminars, a spell of lots of people protesting...and so on.

Yes you are meant to head up to avoid them, with two caveats:-
1. If you need to start to head up before they reach chc in order to avoid, then they broke either 13 or 15.
2. You do not need to head up higher than chc. Since in the starboard wall, many boats are eased off as they reach the mark....you need to be sure that you headed higher than a tightly sheeted in chc before you invoke this rule.


5. Not sure if this is related to #4, but coming into the weather mark, as soon as port tackers tacked, they would yell "tack completed". What is the significance of this? I'm thinking they are trying to tell you that it is now a simple overtaking-boat situation and as such you have to avoid them. Correct?

Trying to psyche people out. They're still constrained by 18.3
They are yelling this to avoid being protested under rule 13 or 15...see above. As soon as they reach chc, they yell "tack completed"


6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?
Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.



#22 Mambo Kings

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 04:56 PM

Thanks for this learning.

Another question I forgot to ask: if a boat hits a mark because someone gave too little room, obviously you'd want to protest the guy who was such a cheapskate. Do you still have to do a turn then seek redress as well as protest him?

So far so good, keep 'em coming


You have to protest the boat that left too little room. Provided you win the protest than you are exonerated from hitting the mark. (see rule 64.1 ©)

If you do a single spin to insure yourself , then if you lose the protest you cannot be dsq, but if you win the protest, you will not get redress.

#23 clamslapper

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:28 PM

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)

#24 jkdubs808

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:41 PM

Some people have added some good stuff here, figured I'd add mine as well;


1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?
It sounds like a barging situation. He should know better than to stick his nose in there and try to force his way in. He needs to avoid the committee boat.


2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?
Yell at them to not go past head to wind. Cuz you're right, they cannot go past head to wind. Everyone gets aggressive at the start, and sometimes abiding by the rules goes out the fucking window. They just need to be reminded of their boundaries.


3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?
Thats a symptom of dooshbagitus. Be wary of buying them drinks at the bar.........

4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

Technically if you have to alter course its their fault. However, that being said the whole 3 boat length circle is a big gray area. If I am not mistaken the port-starboard rule still applies even in the circle. However, if he COMPLETES his tack and no one has to alter much then give him room. It would be hard to take this to the room if all you had to do was pinch a little when he tacked below your bow. Trust me, Ive tried.....

5. Not sure if this is related to #4, but coming into the weather mark, as soon as port tackers tacked, they would yell "tack completed". What is the significance of this? I'm thinking they are trying to tell you that it is now a simple overtaking-boat situation and as such you have to avoid them. Correct?
Thats right. Its to let you know that they are now on your same tack and the dynamics of the situation completely change. People actually yell this??

6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

Thats correct. And whatever you do DO NOT hunt him! If there are any on the water judges they will toss your ass out. Another thing I learned from experience........



Hope this helped. Others may argue with me, but I don't give a shit :lol:. Get a new rule book and read up on the rules. I think we all need to do that from time to time.


#25 backstayman2

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:42 PM

I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)



Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.

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#26 Ballast Technician

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 05:54 PM

[SNIP]
6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?
Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.


Absolutely wrong - the other responses were correct: The inside boat is entitled to mark room but does not have ROW. Port-starboard does apply.

#27 backstayman2

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:01 PM


[SNIP]
6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?
Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.


Absolutely wrong - the other responses were correct: The inside boat is entitled to mark room but does not have ROW. Port-starboard does apply.



I wonder if you could clarify the difference. Not sure I understand. Again, if you could apply to the real world, I'm steaming toward the right-hand gate on starboard and some fellow coming in on port politely mentions (ya right!!!!) that he's entitled to room. What, exactly, should I do, other than round leaving just enough water for him to get around the mark in? I believe I understand how this is all supposed to work at the left gate, since it's a standard leave-to-port rounding -- but not sure about how to play it on the other side.

#28 clamslapper

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:04 PM


I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)



Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.




Wow wow wow. Just a couple more? Will she let you do an arguably NSFW one?

#29 Joakim

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:06 PM



[SNIP]
6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?
Yes. (Well, a pedant would point out that you have to give him mark room, which isn't quite the same thing.)

Correct. Inside boat has right of way. Port starboard only applies at windward mark.


Absolutely wrong - the other responses were correct: The inside boat is entitled to mark room but does not have ROW. Port-starboard does apply.



I wonder if you could clarify the difference. Not sure I understand. Again, if you could apply to the real world, I'm steaming toward the right-hand gate on starboard and some fellow coming in on port politely mentions (ya right!!!!) that he's entitled to room. What, exactly, should I do, other than round leaving just enough water for him to get around the mark in? I believe I understand how this is all supposed to work at the left gate, since it's a standard leave-to-port rounding -- but not sure about how to play it on the other side.



You have it right. You have ROW, but you need to give "mark-room" to the inside boat. The definition of mark room is to sail to the mark and then sail proper course while at the mark. He can't take any more space from you since you have ROW.

#30 Steam Flyer

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:07 PM

He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.


{waving red flag}
Protest!

FB- Doug

#31 bsainsbury

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:08 PM


I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)



Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.


I wish more newbs were willing to post so many awesome pics!

#32 Joakim

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:18 PM

In many replys there are mentions about different hails like "up", "tack or cross" etc. But they have no meaning in the rules! Only hailing "protest", "room to tack" and responding "you tack" have a meaning in the rules. If someone hails "tack or cross", you don't have to respond and if you do, your response has no meaning. Maybe you could protest for bad sportsmanship (Rule 2) due to a misleading hail, but it needs to be a very clear case then.

#33 backstayman2

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:21 PM



I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)



Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.




Wow wow wow. Just a couple more? Will she let you do an arguably NSFW one?



Nah, I think nothing really NSFW. Last one's at the very tip of Cape Hatteras on Christmas Day.

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#34 HSG

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:30 PM

It is refreshing (and there were a few occassions at Charleston) when a competitor honors the rules and tacks/gybes out when it is a close call rather than sticking it in at the boat or windward mark or failing to slow down and fall in line at the leeward mark. Unfortunately, the norm appears to have become if you can stick it in- do so and if you are prosteted, you do a 360 turn (too small a penalty) or act as if you have no idea that you just screwed everyone else by ingnoring basic rules on the course and yell protest. Just got back from Charleston and had the same thoughts.

#35 Steam Flyer

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 06:35 PM

One thing to bear in mind, just like the rules have changed over the past 20 years, they are being changed MORE now. For example, in the latest edition they F'd up the definitions and are realizing that the "Buoy Room Rule" is also screwed. Expect everything you learn now to be wrong within 5 years.

Answers in BOLD BLUE

Hi, I just got back into racing after a 25-year hiatus and despite trying to read the rule book, I am having difficulty understanding a few basic rules. I have zero desire to be involved in protests; I want to become known as a clean competitor. Could I have a bit of advice on a few scenarios I ran into a few times at Charleston Race Week:

1. At the start, if you are on the layline to the RC, and someone sticks his nose in and you can't dissuade them from doing so, obviously, at a certain point it you don't fall off they are going to T-bone the RC boat. Do you own them room once they have reached this point of inevitability? What about the boat to leeward? ... if he's yelling "up up up" at the same time as the above is happening, what do you do? Just stop and let both go right by?

You never owe mark-room (which is what they call buoy room nowadays) at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water. If the windward boat cannot avoid colliding with the RC boat, then you cannot force him into a collision but he still should get a DSQ (and you need to protest him).

In the case of stacked-up boats it's more complicated... you need to hail both directions simultaneously, the Right-Of-Way boat to leeward of you is an obstruction yet he cannot force you into a collision either. The good news is that the boats on the ends get the DSQ: leeward for forcing a collision and/or not giving room to keep clear, windward for not keeping clear



2. Before the start, if a leeward boat is trying to push you up, my understanding is that they can't go beyond head-to-wind. it seemed like some boats got very aggressive in pushing us up, and certainly seemed to have gone past head-to-wind for a couple of seconds in doing so. What do you do if this happens?

Correct, a leeward boat cannot go beyond head-to-wind. After that, they are tacking! Note that if -you- must tack away to avoid them while they are going head-to-wind, that's tough for you but perfectly legal for them.

Note also that if the leeward boat comes up to you from astern, they gain Right-Of-Way as soon as they have the overlap. They must give you room to keep clear but you must keep clear (see the definitions)



3. On the weather beat, you're on starboard and a port-tacker comes along, and hails "tack or cross". You want to keep going left, so you yell "cross". Then the guy tacks right on top of you. Later he said, as it turns out I was crossing cleanly and since you didn't need to dip I had every right to leebow you. I couldn't find a specific rule to address that ... is it just bad sportsmanship?

After receiving your hail, if he tacks so as to interfere, you have the right to throw a brick into his cockpit. Alternatively, you can wait until establishing an overlap and then tie the brick to a 4' rope and swing it full force at him (this way you get to keep the brick)

Just kidding. It's a dick move fully deserving of a brick upside the head, but unfortunately the rules don't address this. Remember there are only 2 hails acknowledged officially. Using hails to avoid troouble is good sportsmanship. Abusing hails to gain an advantage is bullshit.



4. At the weather mark, you're in a big wall of starboard tack boats headed for the mark when some port tackers come in and tack near the mark. I understand that under Rule 18.2 if they tack within the zone, you aren't supposed to have to head up to avoid them. But this happened all the time. I can't say for sure whether or not it was inside the zone -- there's no dotted line on the water -- but in any case don't they have to completely yield ROW to the boats coming in on starboard? Lots of bumper cars and hot tempers resulted from this, and I have to say I am clueless at what's supposed to happen. For these races, I just pulled the tiller up to make room for them and avoid a crash, but obviously pinching up like this time after time really kills you.

A boat that tacks within the 3-boat-length zone has NO RIGHTS to mark room. If they complete a tack below you, they still have R-O-W as lee boat except that they cannot force you above close-hauled (R18.3). So if they can squeeze in without force you above close-hauled, they're in their. If your jib luffs, rail 'em and protest.

Note- by "rail 'em" I mean don't cause damage in a collision, and that includes any contact between sails & rigs. But if there is no contact it will be difficult to convince a protest committee that there was an actual foul.



6. At the leeward gate, you're coming in on starboard to the right-hand gate. A guy is coming down on port and has an inside overlap at the three-boatlength circle. You have to give him room, right?

B.Tech and Joakim have it right. The "Buoy Room Rule" (18 in all it's glory) used to turn off port-starboard, windward-leeward, etc etc, but nowadays it does not. So we have situations where a boat is entitled to mark-room but does not have R-O-W. The difference is in what that boat can do. Mark-room is interpreted to mean room to sail to, and around, the mark... but not to try and place any tactical moves on the other boat. A R-O-W boat has more latitude to make tactical moves but can still be constrained to give mark-room.



I realize some of these are pretty basic, but despite reading the rule book I just can't seem to remember how these very common situations are supposed to work in the real world. Any guidance very much appreciated.


It sucks that they have totally messed up the rules (this is one of my favorite rants). Most of the way the game is played has not changed, but some things have changed in a major way. And the weasel-wording of things like "Keep Clear" and "Mark Room" means that Protest Committees make all kinds of screwy decisions.

It's good that they got rid of 'Mast Abeam' but they should have quit while ahead... or at least gone much more slowly. Now there is no basis for clear & concise rules because they've changed so much.

How often do they change the rules of chess?
[/rant]

Now go forth and race hard, and carry thy protest flag in thy pocket!

FB- Doug

#36 J24_guy

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:23 PM




I'm just bumping this to the top so maybe we can discuss more about this guy's ... rules questions. I just want to close my office door and really think about the issues, er, raised by this thread.

(This "feed the Anarchists" thing should be mandatory in all discussions like this!! Quid pro quo.)



Okay, but just a couple more in thanks for the excellent clarifying responses. Really do appreciate it.




Wow wow wow. Just a couple more? Will she let you do an arguably NSFW one?



Nah, I think nothing really NSFW. Last one's at the very tip of Cape Hatteras on Christmas Day.




That is one good-looking bum there. I hope the folks here have answered your questions; i imagine you have made their day!

#37 bulbouskeel

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:12 PM

No wonder the OP sounds pretty mellow. If you had that little slice of heaven snuggling up with you every night, you would be too. Protest, schmotest! ("Gee, would I rather spend an hour with some angry guys in the protest room, or having cocktails with my wife? ... have to think about that.")


No shit. If I had that waiting for me on the dock after a rough day of racing? I would pull out my yellow flag in two seconds, take the scoring penalty, and take her home pronto!!!

#38 The Advocate

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:53 AM


He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.


{waving red flag}
Protest!

FB- Doug


Awww crap, another one.....

#39 DoRag

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:56 AM



He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.


{waving red flag}
Protest!

FB- Doug


Awww crap, another one.....


Time for the foreigners to chime in?

#40 Steam Flyer

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:09 AM



Awww crap, another one.....


Time for the foreigners to chime in?


"Aww crap" was just an expression

He wasn't calling your name

DSK

#41 The Advocate

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:10 AM



Awww crap, another one.....


Time for the foreigners to chime in?


"Aww crap" was just an expression

He wasn't calling your name

DSK


GOLD!

#42 Dog Watch

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:18 AM

About 25 minutes into this video, you'll see a classic example of a barge at the committee boat end, a bail out by one boat who knew he had no rights, followed by protest flags from two leeward boats, followed by a penalty turn taken by the barger.

Start watching at 0:24mins to see the build up.

http://www.youtube.c...bed/ChiWQkqcQaQ

(hehe!)

And also spot the deliberate mistake by the commentator at 0:41:15!!! Poor guy...was all confused...thanks to 2nd commentator who tagged-in and came to his rescue.

DW

#43 Joakim

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:11 AM

About 25 minutes into this video, you'll see a classic example of a barge at the committee boat end, a bail out by one boat who knew he had no rights, followed by protest flags from two leeward boats, followed by a penalty turn taken by the barger.

Start watching at 0:24mins to see the build up.

http://www.youtube.c...bed/ChiWQkqcQaQ


I find it interesting that Walker did not get a penalty. Did he really try to steer on the other side of the RC? Could he have kept clear without Puma on that side of the RC? He got a very lucky escape while Grouparama really suffered from others faults. Why was Puma allowed to sail that long disturbing Grouparama? Shouldn't it have taken penalty immediately?

#44 Sean

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.

#45 zvikingz

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.



+1

#46 bulbouskeel

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:00 PM


I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.



+1



+1

Take note, newbies. Has this guy been told to fuck off? No. Have people been annoyed that in all probability, if you looked in the SA archives, most of these questions have been answered many times over. No. Because, you fucking newbies, he has asked a bunch of reasonable questions in a reasonable way and has a reasonable head start on the right answers. And he posts pictures of his hot wife. He understands that that is the red meat SA is powered on, she is perfectly okay with non-face shots and is presumably happy to help her hubby do a little better at racing, and many of the posters have taken the time to assemble careful, correct answers. It's a win-win-win. That is how this whole site is supposed to work. So, when we say, "show us your wife/girlfriend's tits", we're not kidding. And you can see from this thread that it's well worth doing.

#47 Steam Flyer

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:05 PM

He hasn't posted yet, but I am with Brass on this.


I am curious about where Brass went on this. MAybe he's gay & didn't like the pics?

FB- Doug

#48 backstayman2

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 01:28 PM

I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.



Thanks. She's done a good job of keeping her looks, for sure she doesn't look 40, but moreover is the kindest, gentlest person around. If you want to laugh (nicely) though, put a tiller in her hands; she has more than a bit of difficulty remembering where the wind is coming from. I can usually handle that, but OTOH I'm dealing with the mid-40s baldness, and a bit of a beer belly that while not completely out of control is hardly the greatest thing.

Anyhow, thanks for your answers, I think I will go out there next time with a little more confidence.

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#49 Der_Dude

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:01 PM

Maybe just play this game for a while:

http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm

#50 dreaded

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 02:49 PM

do yourself a favor and don't respond to a "tack or cross" hail. yes it was a dick move on their part, no it wasn't illegal.



I believe the proper response by you is, get fuck out of my way or I'll reinact PT109 on ya...

#51 backstayman2

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:09 PM


do yourself a favor and don't respond to a "tack or cross" hail. yes it was a dick move on their part, no it wasn't illegal.



I believe the proper response by you is, get fuck out of my way or I'll reinact PT109 on ya...



What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?

#52 BalticBandit

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:26 PM



do yourself a favor and don't respond to a "tack or cross" hail. yes it was a dick move on their part, no it wasn't illegal.



I believe the proper response by you is, get fuck out of my way or I'll reinact PT109 on ya...



What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?



This depends a lot onthe boat. The faster the boat the more they have to be able to cross you by to throw on a lee bow. But remember that even fighting over an attempted lee bow that eventually fails can have both of ou going very very slowly, and hence it may well be worth the time to let them cross. One thing to consider is that if you know the other boat is one that might throw a lee bow, start leaning on the tell-tales about 5 bl out. That way if they do try to "tack on you" after you waved them across - you just come up to close hauled - or even slightly above WHIlE they are tacking.... And then if that makes you have to alter course to avoid contact WHILE they are tacking, IE before they have completed the turn to the new closehauled course you throw the flag.



As for starting ahd "head to wind"... be careful on how you call it. Just because their jib is backing into the mast doesn't mean they are past HTW. coming in with speed, . keeping the sheet on and heading up to HTW will both back the jib AND stop the boat. Well handled boats do that all the time on the start line. The better measure is where their boom is.

Note also that if they DO go past HTW, they are still "tacking" and hence have no rights under RRS 13... UNTIL they turn their boat down to a close hauled course (sails don't need to be full). this is a common mistake that "port tack Hole seekers" make - ie they see the hole, tack but stop their tack shortly after going past HTW. Theoretically they are STILL TACKING, even though their sails are now on port. UNTIL they turn down to a "close hauled course" - they are still tacking. That's why you will see top boats come in, tack, blow sheets, turn the boat down to close hauled and THEN luff back up HTW.

#53 Joakim

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:40 PM

What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?


As I said earlier hail "tack or cross" or responding to it has no meaning in the rules.

If the port tack boat is about 1/2 boat lengths ahead of you, she can't cross you unless you allow her, but she can leebow you, if he knows how to do it. She maybe able to leebow you even when you are head to head.

You don't hear people hailing "tack or cross" around here, but I guess it is a threat: "I will leebow you, if you don't let me cross".

#54 backstayman2

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 03:51 PM


What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?


As I said earlier hail "tack or cross" or responding to it has no meaning in the rules.

If the port tack boat is about 1/2 boat lengths ahead of you, she can't cross you unless you allow her, but she can leebow you, if he knows how to do it. She maybe able to leebow you even when you are head to head.

You don't hear people hailing "tack or cross" around here, but I guess it is a threat: "I will leebow you, if you don't let me cross".



Said that way, it actually now makes sense to me Joakim. Thanks.

#55 Sean

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:31 PM


I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.



Thanks.  She's done a good job of keeping her looks, for sure she doesn't look 40, but moreover is the kindest, gentlest person around.  If you want to laugh (nicely) though, put a tiller in her hands; she has more than a bit of difficulty remembering where the wind is coming from.  I can usually handle that, but OTOH I'm dealing with the mid-40s baldness, and a bit of a beer belly that while not completely out of control is hardly the greatest thing.   

Anyhow, thanks for your answers, I think I will go out there next time with a little more confidence. 

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I think I can speak for the majority here in saying that we can overlook the small detail of not knowing how to sail when considering your wife for SCOTW. 

#56 bulbouskeel

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 04:49 PM



I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.



Thanks. She's done a good job of keeping her looks, for sure she doesn't look 40, but moreover is the kindest, gentlest person around. If you want to laugh (nicely) though, put a tiller in her hands; she has more than a bit of difficulty remembering where the wind is coming from. I can usually handle that, but OTOH I'm dealing with the mid-40s baldness, and a bit of a beer belly that while not completely out of control is hardly the greatest thing.

Anyhow, thanks for your answers, I think I will go out there next time with a little more confidence.

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I think I can speak for the majority here in saying that we can overlook the small detail of not knowing how to sail when considering your wife for SCOTW.



Agreed. Heck, SCOTM or SCOTY. I know I read somewhere that thou shalt not covet another man's wife but ... I am coveting. Sorry. Before this thread falls into the abyss, if the OP happens by here, is there any chance of getting a few more shots of her? What a terrific girl. And, no, it's hardly the end of the world if her steering is a little erratic -- just have patience and she'll have it down in no time.

#57 backstayman2

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:23 PM




I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.



Thanks. She's done a good job of keeping her looks, for sure she doesn't look 40, but moreover is the kindest, gentlest person around. If you want to laugh (nicely) though, put a tiller in her hands; she has more than a bit of difficulty remembering where the wind is coming from. I can usually handle that, but OTOH I'm dealing with the mid-40s baldness, and a bit of a beer belly that while not completely out of control is hardly the greatest thing.

Anyhow, thanks for your answers, I think I will go out there next time with a little more confidence.

Attached File  DSC_0461.JPG   584.14K   144 downloads


I think I can speak for the majority here in saying that we can overlook the small detail of not knowing how to sail when considering your wife for SCOTW.



Agreed. Heck, SCOTM or SCOTY. I know I read somewhere that thou shalt not covet another man's wife but ... I am coveting. Sorry. Before this thread falls into the abyss, if the OP happens by here, is there any chance of getting a few more shots of her? What a terrific girl. And, no, it's hardly the end of the world if her steering is a little erratic -- just have patience and she'll have it down in no time.




Fair enough, but at some point shouldn't you show us YOUR wife's tits?

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#58 J24_guy

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:53 PM





I'd like to nominate backstay's wife for SCOTW.



Thanks. She's done a good job of keeping her looks, for sure she doesn't look 40, but moreover is the kindest, gentlest person around. If you want to laugh (nicely) though, put a tiller in her hands; she has more than a bit of difficulty remembering where the wind is coming from. I can usually handle that, but OTOH I'm dealing with the mid-40s baldness, and a bit of a beer belly that while not completely out of control is hardly the greatest thing.

Anyhow, thanks for your answers, I think I will go out there next time with a little more confidence.

Attached File  DSC_0461.JPG   584.14K   144 downloads


I think I can speak for the majority here in saying that we can overlook the small detail of not knowing how to sail when considering your wife for SCOTW.



Agreed. Heck, SCOTM or SCOTY. I know I read somewhere that thou shalt not covet another man's wife but ... I am coveting. Sorry. Before this thread falls into the abyss, if the OP happens by here, is there any chance of getting a few more shots of her? What a terrific girl. And, no, it's hardly the end of the world if her steering is a little erratic -- just have patience and she'll have it down in no time.




Fair enough, but at some point shouldn't you show us YOUR wife's tits?




Now that was unexpected pleasantry on this Thursday afternoon! Whoa.

#59 Mark K

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 08:58 PM

Maybe just play this game for a while:

http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm


Can play this one too..

http://www.ukhalsey....z/quiz_list.asp

#60 knobblyoldjimbo

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:47 AM

Take Mark K's advice. The UK Halsey web site has a good set of q/a's on the rules.

Also for the start, being at the boat end isn't necessarily the best place to be at the start, consider tactics. If you looked a few boats further down you might see some nice space that you can occupy in safety and let the ijits fight for the space by the boat. It's a numbers game, you'll get better averages by starting at full speed with clear air further down the line.

At the stbd layline to the windward mark, try to tack a bit later so you're above the crowd, again, it's a numbers game and one day there'll be a massive clusterfuck at the bouy and you'll just sail past them with a grin all over your face.

Stop taking mucky pictures of your wife and do some web surfing, there are numerous places to go where you'll learn about tactics and rules.

KO

#61 stranded

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 12:45 PM

What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?

assuming both boats are of similar type or speed ...



correct response to this hail is ...

if you don't buy us all a drink at the club


you will find you have buy for the WHOLE bar !

#62 Lake Shark

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 02:51 PM

What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?


just ignore them, it has no deffinition in the rules, if it is clear they can't cross you just hail starboard and/or protest if they cause you to alter course. similar things to be ignored are when a port boat says "hold your course" or someone pleads with you to tack because you are covering them. Racing gets much more enjoyable if you ignore the shit flinging and only respond with the hails required by the rules.

#63 Miles Beyond

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 03:46 PM

I don't mind waving a port tacker across if they are likely to cross anyway and are just playing it safe.

But typical of the type who hail 'Tack or cross?', was an incident the other night in a light air beer can race on mid sized one-design keel boats. Port tacker is barely bow ahead, won't cross unless we duck. I reply 'no thanks' so they tack into a marginal leebow. After sticking it for several minutes, they tack to port to try and cross. No chance, so we ducked to avoid a collision, but did not protest. Didn't even get a 'we owe you one'. Next time my response will be to give them a couple of additional options, 'Duck or T-bone?' and have my flag ready.

#64 Mark K

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:13 PM

What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?

assuming both boats are of similar type or speed ...



correct response to this hail is ...

if you don't buy us all a drink at the club


you will find you have buy for the WHOLE bar !


It's for when the only reason you are crossing is because you each have a different opinion on the right way to go, which is much of the time. If you, starboard, have decided that you would now prefer to go right, then you can sat "tack" and then set him on what you now consider to be the "wrong" direction, whilst you tack and get on the "right" direction.

If, on the other hand, you want to continue to go to the left unimpeded, you can invite the poor sucker to please don't worry about it, he may safely cross in front of you..."Do go on, sir".

It's all good for starboard.

#65 J24_guy

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:22 PM


What exactly IS going on when a port-tacker asks "tack or cross?" The only thing I have ever used it for is if you, on starboard, want to keep going left, you tell the guy to cross. Otherwise I just keep my mouth shut. My experience is that port can't really leebow you meaningfully unless he can cross you cleanly to begin with ... in which case there's no point in his hailing you. I.e., if port crash-tacks because he's on a collision course and doesn't want to duck, I don't recall that ever being a problem for starboard, you just roll right over him. BTW, in response to port's question, when would starboard ever say "tack, please"?


just ignore them, it has no deffinition in the rules, if it is clear they can't cross you just hail starboard and/or protest if they cause you to alter course. similar things to be ignored are when a port boat says "hold your course" or someone pleads with you to tack because you are covering them. Racing gets much more enjoyable if you ignore the shit flinging and only respond with the hails required by the rules.



Lake Shark has captured the essence of it. There is a certain type of windbag who will steer his boat to the weather mark and when he's on port, yell "tack or cross!" to every starboard tacker he meets. He's really just looking for suckers. As on of the previous posters mentioned, he is only a threat as far as tacking if he can cross you cleanly to begin with. It seems like you have to answer, but you certainly don't. Once in a while there's a benefit to letting him cross but when you think about it, it's really not that often.

BTW in case I didn't mention, the OP's wife is a sexy angel and has made my day. Thank you for sharing.

#66 ftbinc

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 09:18 PM

I don't mind waving a port tacker across if they are likely to cross anyway and are just playing it safe.

But typical of the type who hail 'Tack or cross?', was an incident the other night in a light air beer can race on mid sized one-design keel boats. Port tacker is barely bow ahead, won't cross unless we duck. I reply 'no thanks' so they tack into a marginal leebow. After sticking it for several minutes, they tack to port to try and cross. No chance, so we ducked to avoid a collision, but did not protest. Didn't even get a 'we owe you one'. Next time my response will be to give them a couple of additional options, 'Duck or T-bone?' and have my flag ready.


I like it - a stencil for my starboard waterline stripe that says just that, Duck or T-bone kinda like a large bumper sticker... with a picture of a red flag after it...

#67 Dog Watch

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:47 AM

I like it - a stencil for my starboard waterline stripe that says just that, Duck or T-bone kinda like a large bumper sticker... with a picture of a red flag after it...


That might work on downwind, but they wouldn't see it on a beat.

In fact, re. your suggested position best to read your smart comment, is another windward boat! So I suggest hashing "Up!" there.

Best to put it on your port coach house ouron your starboard cockpit wall.

Dw

#68 Mark K

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 01:34 AM



I like it - a stencil for my starboard waterline stripe that says just that, Duck or T-bone kinda like a large bumper sticker... with a picture of a red flag after it...


That might work on downwind, but they wouldn't see it on a beat.

In fact, re. your suggested position best to read your smart comment, is another windward boat! So I suggest hashing "Up!" there.

Best to put it on your port coach house ouron your starboard cockpit wall.

Dw


Stenciled on the port side of all headsails. Larger letters could be used. "LEEBOW ME"




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