123 replies to this topic

[Vela Sailing Supply]

So, other than hike, what does the third person do on the VX, or the Viper for that matter?

The roles on the VX are similar to those on the Viper, but with less strings to pull.

Almost all owners are getting to the consensus that the boat is faster sailing with 2 instead of three unless there is a windy event.

The ergonomics, loads and size of rigging and sail, allow for a two up operation without any problems, therefore in the event of a third crew member, he/she may help with mainsail trimming (not too much strength required) and may be helpful during the douses in a hurry rounding the weather mark. besides that keeping the head out of the boat and calling tactics will be the major functions as well as constantly trimming the jib on the runs as the apparent wind can be a pain to keep the jib constantly full without over trimming it.

[us7070]

My wife and I would be ~290lbs.

Me, and another guy who would sail with me, would be ~320lbs

I don't see it working unless i can find a much heavier friend...

In any case, the boat has to make it to New England, for me to get serious.

[jh26]

At least 2 VX in Newport already.

[EYESAILOR]

At least 2 VX in Newport already.

I love the "at least". I think you mean "only".

Reason I mention this is because one of my pet peeves is the way boat builders are so ..ah hem ..."misleading" about the number of boats they have sold. I called Bennett and was interested in attending a demo of the VX this summer. I asked how many boats had been sold and got given a pretty impressive number. When I asked where? In addition to Europe, Australia etc, I was told 4 had been SOLD in the North East. So naturaly I asked who? (by this time I was in touch with the local rep). One was the rep, but the pleasant surprise is that one was a friend who I have always enjoyed sailing with. So I called my friend to get his perspective on his new boat.

Me: "Hello X, I hear you have one of these new VX One Design boats"
X: "Nope"
Me : " Oh, it hasnt arrived yet. When are you expecting delivery?"
X: " I'm not expecting delivery"
Me : "Whaat. Did you cancel your order?"
X : "Just to be clear. I have never ordered or come close to ordering a VX"
Me : "Huh?"
X : "I dont know where they got that idea from. I went for a demo sail. I was polite and told them it was a nice boat. That's it."

I'll admit it pissed me off.

I always have been skeptical of those banner headlines claiming 200 x J70s, but how difficult is it to count to two. Rant over. Good luck with a cool looking boat, even if you are prone to exaggeration

[jh26]

At least 2 VX in Newport already.

I love the "at least". I think you mean "only".

Sorry, what I meant was "I am confident there are two, and I've heard rumors about others but don't know how serious they are". I don't work for Brian and have no particular insight into his sales or order list, so my statement is just based on the 2 "local" boats that sailed at the Newport regatta in June.

There was a 50% increase in dry hull weight from 385 lb (sailplan PDF) versus 573 lb (class rules.)
Correcting for the lighter keel, the hull of this 19 footer is only 70 lb less than the 21 foot Viper!

Any insight into the 188 weight gain? Another "typo"?

The biggest component is that first number is a "dry hull weight" from the naval engineer and the second is the all-up, fully rigged, weight with keel, bulb, rig, and rigging included which the class will use to weight boats. There was weight gain from the design weight to the as-built weight, but not as much as this comparison makes it seem.

[OKMLSAIL]

There was a 50% increase in dry hull weight from 385 lb (sailplan PDF) versus 573 lb (class rules.)
Correcting for the lighter keel, the hull of this 19 footer is only 70 lb less than the 21 foot Viper!

So you're pointing out that the hull is 10% shorter and weighs 10% less?

The exclamation point at the end of your sentence makes it sound like a gotcha moment, but I'm not sure what your point is.

Yeah the boat is shorter. Yeah it weighs less.

And......???????

[OKMLSAIL]

Simple physics. Weight of a hollow structure ...increases with the square of the length.

Wut?

You may want to spell check your formula...

[EYESAILOR]

There was a 50% increase in dry hull weight from 385 lb (sailplan PDF) versus 573 lb (class rules.)
Correcting for the lighter keel, the hull of this 19 footer is only 70 lb less than the 21 foot Viper!

Any insight into the 188 weight gain? Another "typo"?

The biggest component is that first number is a "dry hull weight" from the naval engineer and the second is the all-up, fully rigged, weight with keel, bulb, rig, and rigging included which the class will use to weight boats. There was weight gain from the design weight to the as-built weight, but not as much as this comparison makes it seem.

The original specification was for a "displacement" (not dry hull weight) of 385 lbs including rig and 135 lb keel. The crewed displacement was spec'd at 830 lbs allowing for a crew weight of about 445 lbs.

Interestingly the class rules state that the warranty is void if the crew weighs more than 560 lbs. "The builder warranty limits the crew weight to less than 560 lbs"

[ultraracer613um]

superg, come'on man. Enjoy your viper, messing around in VX threads is going to be counter productive... (BTW, go stick your boat on a scale and report back). You dont know what you dont know... and you really dont want to know.

Enjoying the hell out of my Viper and VX, like trying to decide if i should drive the farrari or mesarati ;-)

Hope work lets up so i can make the NA's down in Florida... also hoping to get a viper vacation in Miami over the winter.

Good catch. Indeed, the 385 lbs was reported on the VX site as displacement, which implies with ballast. Of course it was intentional, as the crewed displacement number was consistent and crewed displacement without a keel makes no sense. Either it was a target that was overshot by 50% or it was "optimistic" AKA hype.

[Icebear]

superg, come'on man. Enjoy your viper, messing around in VX threads is going to be counter productive...

Sorry, guess I touched a live rail bringing up weight. Whatever Vipers weigh, mine sails to polar targets even at 9200 feet elevation (15% less pressure.) My Tasar did too, which perplexed Frank Bethwaite, may he RIP.

[ultraracer613um]

We all know your a bad ass super g, you could make a moss bottomed c22 sail to its numbers. :-)

superg, come'on man. Enjoy your viper, messing around in VX threads is going to be counter productive...

Sorry, guess I touched a live rail bringing up weight. Whatever Vipers weigh, mine sails to polar targets even at 9200 feet elevation (15% less pressure.) My Tasar did too, which perplexed Frank Bethwaite, may he RIP.

[Icebear]

Now that you've successfully put a furling jib on the v, I'm waiting to see how you upgrade to an auto pole launcher / retrieval system like the vx has. You would love that feature.

I am sure I would. And I am envious of the VX below deck furler. Very nice setup.

Interesting point you make about the (North) targets. I had assumed they post dated the rig/keel mod.

Maybe the high altitude moss is a laminar flow disrupter? :-)

[EYESAILOR]

One slight downside to an auto pole launcher/retrieval system is that if the pole gets snagged or stuck then the minor problem of sailing upwind with the pole half way out turns into the major problem of sailing upwind with the spinnaker half way down.
Some may prefer the simplicity of 2 separate lines.
But in a 2 person skiff or VX, I can see the benefit.

Isnt the comparison of VX to Viper all a bit absurd? Two completely different boats. Ultra owns both so can correct me if I'm wrong.

VX vs Melges 17 and Johnson 18 etc would be an interesting demo day.

[ultraracer613um]

Pole gets retracted just like it does on the viper - when the kite is pulled into the tube the tack line presses the pole in. Difference is that there's no cleat to un-do. The pole is held out by upward pressure on the halyard. Same could be done on the viper by simply running the kite halyard through the pole out line after a bit of purchase adjustment... At least I think. So for it to be stuck out, your kite can't be in...

Please, don't say the ...17 word. You never know who is going to pop up. Performance wise the vx and viper are very close I think. Feel wise your probably right. Vx feels far more like a dingy except that it really does have good stability. Comparing vx stability and feel to the viper is probably like comparing the vipers feel and stability to the j70, although I've yet to sail one so I'm really not qualified to comment.

So comparing the vx to the viper may be as reasonable as comparing the viper to the j70?
Vx- turbo dingy feel with good stability
Viper - dingy feel with a bit better stability
J70- more keel boat than dingy with excellent stability

Again, as far as I am qualified to comment on the 70

If that makes sense?

One slight downside to an auto pole launcher/retrieval system is that if the pole gets snagged or stuck then the minor problem of sailing upwind with the pole half way out turns into the major problem of sailing upwind with the spinnaker half way down.
Some may prefer the simplicity of 2 separate lines.
But in a 2 person skiff or VX, I can see the benefit.

Isnt the comparison of VX to Viper all a bit absurd? Two completely different boats. Ultra owns both so can correct me if I'm wrong.

VX vs Melges 17 and Johnson 18 etc would be an interesting demo day.

[vibroman]

Had first ride on VX yesterday.

Sailed 2 up in 15-18 knts... Amazing boat. Saw 18.5 downwind but totally in control. Loads amazingly light. Upwind 5.5 to 6 or so which was not too bad considering the steep short mobile bay chop we were punching. We could have probably used one more body to optimize upwind performance but the boat was really well mannered with only 2 up. (Even with an old hack on the tiller). Probably the thing that stood out the most was how quickly the boat accelerated and changed directions. Its an incredibly agile boat. The self tacking jib is a really nice feature. Spin hoist and retrieval was ridiculously easy. In general the systems have been very carefully thought out and are really pretty simple.
I have sailed Vipers, U20's and now this, and while the Viper and the U20 are great boats, I think this boat trumps both. It is effortless to sail really really fast. In the U and Viper going downwind in breeze I always had a sense that the boat is just itching to punish you for the slightest transgression. We would always roll into a gybe with a certain amount trepidation about the outcome. I am sure that the pros and grand prix guys will laugh at this comment, but I am neither, and the days when I thought that regular spreader slapping was fun are now gone. With the VX, it always feels planted even when flying at over 18knts. I think the smaller kite really helps control in the gybes. I have no doubt there are conditions and actions that will send you swimming but typically I suspect those would be conditions where your average sailor in one of the other sporties has long decided to forgo the kite and scream along with 2 sails.
I would challenge the "VX and Vipers being totally different boats" comment above. While there are some differences, I think there are probably more similarities. Its pretty obvious the the genetics are the same. If I haad to create an analogy regarding performance. I would say the U20 can be likened to a Sprint Cup car, the Viper an Indy car and the VX an F1 car. All 3 are very fast but the VX is more nimble.
I really believe that at least in our area the future of racing is in the hands of these boats. Personally 4 or 5 very differently performing boats vacuuming up 30-40 bodies is no fun anymore. With these boats those same 30-40 bodies are split across 15 boats. Whats not to like? I think the VX really satisfies the need to go really really fast when the body is saying whoa.
There have been lots of discussions around here about why racing participation is down and why the juniors bail out once they graduate etc etc . There are of course many many reasons but it all boils down to the psychology of motivation. As juniors the kids are largely extrinsically (external) motivated (parents, peers etc). For a culture to change or stick the motivation needs to become intrinsic (internal). Back in the day the intrinsic motivation came from the excitement of heading to the line every weekend in a large fleet no matter what the boat. Those conditions have sadly gone. So what is the new form of intrinsic motivation for the kids/Young Adults? ...Perhaps its going really really fast..... IMO This little boat addresses both ends of the market, In that it allows more senior sailors to still go fast with out the pain traditionally associated with high performance sailing and still provides enough thrills for the younger generation to want to go racing.

Nice work Brian !

[jkdubs808]

The NAs are in Florida and I am off the ship that same weekend.....hmmmmmm. Might have to try and find a ride for the NAs,

[vibroman]

Rod,
I have a guy in Texas that has some interest can you pm me pls

Thx

VM

[Vela Sailing Supply]

Rod,
I have a guy in Texas that has some interest can you pm me pls

Thx

VM

Thanks Vibro.

PM'ed.

[ultraracer613um]

Four races In good breezes today ft worth tx. Holy smokes these boats are fun

[BradH]

Jeff must have been having so much fun he lost count. Five Saturday and two Sunday for seven total.

[ultraracer613um]

Oops, drowning my aches with wine.

Broke my " three drink prior to post" rule.

Great meeting you this weekend, Florida is going to be fun.

Go the texans .... Or mexitexans in rods case

[TD Floater]

Had another ride on Freds "Weapon", oh deary deary, for sure I have never been that fast, wowsies!

[Vela Sailing Supply]

Oops, drowning my aches with wine.

Broke my " three drink prior to post" rule.

Great meeting you this weekend, Florida is going to be fun.

Go the texans .... Or mexitexans in rods case

go, compadre, just go!

[ultraracer613um]

I sailed the boat this weeked with my wife. About 320 - 330 lbs combined crew weight. Average in the mid 20's, max in the low 30's. We were as fast as anyone up-wind. Downwind, warp speed.

Sweet thing about this boat is the ability to ease the main sail and run off the jib.

If it was under 20 you'd be solid gold with your wife. With your buddy, you could race full on in anything.

My wife and I would be ~290lbs.

Me, and another guy who would sail with me, would be ~320lbs

I don't see it working unless i can find a much heavier friend...

In any case, the boat has to make it to New England, for me to get serious.