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New Rudder for RockIt


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#1 Ryley

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:11 PM

Two years ago I decided that as much fun as it would be to race my Elliott 770 in OD events, the fact was that it just wasn't going to happen more than maybe once a season. RockIt is in Boston, and the only "regular" E770 event is the Nationals on Lake Lanier, which is just too high a travel/fun ratio. Therefore I decided I may as well optimize the boat for the races I do, and one of the things that's been annoying since day one is the design of the rudder. First the good things:
- It is very convenient for ramp launching (necessary in Boston since there are only two launch hoists in the harbor).
- It is very convenient if you happen to run aground
- It is very forgiving at most speeds and recovers quickly from stalls.

However what is not convenient:
- the 25 lb glass/foam blade
- the 15 lb stainless weldment rudder cassette which leads to:
- the need to repair the stainless almost seasonally, especially after particularly rough passages which may break the welds.
- the inability without modification to keep the rudder from bouncing down into the cassette in choppy conditions.

In addition, the stock rudder has the following performance-robbing "features"
- Cassette drags in the water as you approach planing speeds
- The thickness of the blade is nearly 3" which provides the stall characteristics but also provide a great amount of drag
- Because of the cassette design, the leading edge of the rudder describes an arc behind the pivot on the transom
- This leads to a LOT of weather helm, especially on point to point reaches.

Posted Image

Posted Image

#2 Ryley

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:14 PM

As a result I decided to get some help from Jim Taylor to see if he could optimize something for the boat. The basic design brief was:
- No cassette
- Less weather helm
- Less drag
- Had to use the existing transom mounts so that I could switch back to the class rudder for the occasional class event.

The result was this:

Posted Image

The light-blue outline represents the old rudder's profile overlaid on the new rudder.

After hemming and hawing for a season, I decided to go ahead and have it built.

#3 Ryley

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:17 PM

Chris Small Boatworks in Ipswich took on the task of taking JT's vision and turning it into something real. We decided to do a carbon over foam construction. JT provided full size mylars and fairing templates for the rudder, and once a carbon source was located, construction began in early March.

Here is the core glued and faired:

Posted Image

And here is a comparison of the core to the old rudder:

Posted Image

And lastly, the unlaminated core thickness compared to the class rudder:

Posted Image

#4 Ryley

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:19 PM

Here is the first laminated picture - the first side:

Posted Image

At the same time, Chris was fashioning a tiller out of foam with carbon fabric tube laminated over it:

Posted Image

#5 Ryley

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:20 PM

Today I get to go pick up the boat and hopefully it will be in the water soon. Here is the picture of the completed rudder mounted on the transom. I believe the weight of the new rudder has come in around 16 lbs and around 2 lbs for the tiller:

Posted Image

Hopefully I'll get a test sail in before the end of the week and can give an update on how the rudder performs.

#6 Ryley

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:23 PM

The PHRF math is an interesting question. JT was pretty sure we'd get hit 1-2 s/mile. I presented the design brief to PHRF NE and they hit me 1s/mile.
I presented the exact same design brief to ECSA and they hit me 3s/mile
I also presented the very same design brief to PHRF of the Chesapeake, and they were going to hit me 6s/mile for a rudder. I'll be sailing SBRW with the class rudder - otherwise I wouldn't be in the same class as the other Elliott.

I don't really care - we don't modify our boats to be slower. But 6s seems a bit ridiculous. I'm pretty sure we'll be able to compete at our new NE and ECSA numbers.

I'd just like to say though that Chris Small and JT have both been outstanding throughout this process - the build looks great and I really can't wait to use it!

#7 Vogel515

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 05:26 PM

The new rudder looks sweet, you'll have to let us know how much a difference you see on the water.

#8 SailAR

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:17 PM

Congrats. Looks like a great improvement.

JT is an absolutely great guy and class act.

#9 pmw

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 06:25 PM

Looks beautiful & fast.

#10 Ryley

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:22 PM

Looks beautiful & fast.

With all due respect to Greg Elliott, to me it looks like the rudder this boat should have always had.

#11 TBone

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 01:04 PM


Looks beautiful & fast.

With all due respect to Greg Elliott, to me it looks like the rudder this boat should have always had.

Elegant re-fit. Sure to be faster.
At liberty to share related expenses?

#12 Mambo Kings

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:11 PM

Ryley,

What a great project. We look forward to seeing your little rocket up in Marblehead next year so we can take a closer look.

+1, Jim Taylor is class act. He has designed some beautiful and fast boats. The Viper Class Association retain him as their design consultant where he has done work like create computer 3 D drawings of the boat from laser scans to ensure strict OD consistency in the build process. + highly accurate keel templates + great objective advice on rules, modifications and updates. Very cool guy to work with. He is always happy to spend time explaining complex design issues in practical layman's language.
He has this understated delivery style, listening while folks talk back and forth, and then he will interrupt with a quiet "if I may...." and then set us straight with a few deft sentences .

I like your idea of easy conversion back and forth from OD config to Taylor config.



#13 Ryley

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:21 PM



Looks beautiful & fast.

With all due respect to Greg Elliott, to me it looks like the rudder this boat should have always had.

Elegant re-fit. Sure to be faster.
At liberty to share related expenses?

Well to be honest, it was expensive. In this case, the costs were divided into two pools - the design costs and the construction costs. Jim Taylor's initial estimates for designing this rudder put the project out of reach; however, when he came back to re-think the fact that there were no bearings, internal structure, or posts involved, he gave me a revised estimate that made the project more attractive, especially since I could spread out the payments.

Chris has been very flexible since this is the first rudder built to the specs. We might have been able to reduce the costs if we went with a mold instead of templates, but the build scale doesn't warrant it - even if another 5 US Elliotts were to adopt the rudder (which in this class is a huge stretch - half the reason we have these boats in the first place is because we either don't want to or can't afford big boat campaigns), it's still probably more cost effective to hand-build without a mold. That being said, the cost was probably a little more than a Composite Solutions or Phil's rudder, but worth it for the attention to detail and customer service that both Chris and Jim provided throughout this process.

#14 WarBird

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:30 AM




Looks beautiful & fast.

With all due respect to Greg Elliott, to me it looks like the rudder this boat should have always had.

Elegant re-fit. Sure to be faster.
At liberty to share related expenses?

Well to be honest, it was expensive. In this case, the costs were divided into two pools - the design costs and the construction costs. Jim Taylor's initial estimates for designing this rudder put the project out of reach; however, when he came back to re-think the fact that there were no bearings, internal structure, or posts involved, he gave me a revised estimate that made the project more attractive, especially since I could spread out the payments.

Chris has been very flexible since this is the first rudder built to the specs. We might have been able to reduce the costs if we went with a mold instead of templates, but the build scale doesn't warrant it - even if another 5 US Elliotts were to adopt the rudder (which in this class is a huge stretch - half the reason we have these boats in the first place is because we either don't want to or can't afford big boat campaigns), it's still probably more cost effective to hand-build without a mold. That being said, the cost was probably a little more than a Composite Solutions or Phil's rudder, but worth it for the attention to detail and customer service that both Chris and Jim provided throughout this process.

Interesting way of saying "even my wife doesn't know yet"

#15 Jerryd

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:57 PM

Chris has been very flexible since this is the first rudder built to the specs. We might have been able to reduce the costs if we went with a mold instead of templates, but the build scale doesn't warrant it - even if another 5 US Elliotts were to adopt the rudder (which in this class is a huge stretch - half the reason we have these boats in the first place is because we either don't want to or can't afford big boat campaigns), it's still probably more cost effective to hand-build without a mold. That being said, the cost was probably a little more than a Composite Solutions or Phil's rudder, but worth it for the attention to detail and customer service that both Chris and Jim provided throughout this process.



After months of trying to get Composite Solutions to call me back about making a rudder, I gave up!

#16 Ryley

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 03:44 PM


Chris has been very flexible since this is the first rudder built to the specs. We might have been able to reduce the costs if we went with a mold instead of templates, but the build scale doesn't warrant it - even if another 5 US Elliotts were to adopt the rudder (which in this class is a huge stretch - half the reason we have these boats in the first place is because we either don't want to or can't afford big boat campaigns), it's still probably more cost effective to hand-build without a mold. That being said, the cost was probably a little more than a Composite Solutions or Phil's rudder, but worth it for the attention to detail and customer service that both Chris and Jim provided throughout this process.



After months of trying to get Composite Solutions to call me back about making a rudder, I gave up!


If it's for a boat 30' or less, I'd seriously consider Chris Small. He stands by his work, and his quality is very high. PM me if you need contact info.

#17 Jerryd

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:21 PM



Chris has been very flexible since this is the first rudder built to the specs. We might have been able to reduce the costs if we went with a mold instead of templates, but the build scale doesn't warrant it - even if another 5 US Elliotts were to adopt the rudder (which in this class is a huge stretch - half the reason we have these boats in the first place is because we either don't want to or can't afford big boat campaigns), it's still probably more cost effective to hand-build without a mold. That being said, the cost was probably a little more than a Composite Solutions or Phil's rudder, but worth it for the attention to detail and customer service that both Chris and Jim provided throughout this process.



After months of trying to get Composite Solutions to call me back about making a rudder, I gave up!


If it's for a boat 30' or less, I'd seriously consider Chris Small. He stands by his work, and his quality is very high. PM me if you need contact info.




I think that was the problem. At 24' I guess I wasn't worthy :huh: I pm'd you for Chris's info.

#18 Ryley

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:57 PM

The new rudder is on and it feels like it is on jewels. Have not yet sailed the boat, but plan (if the weather is decent) to motor it out after work and see how it feels. Despite the semi-balance, it went on reasonably easily, although I can definitely say I wouldn't want to do it in any kind of seaway - removing it is going to be a similar issue.

Next season we'll replace the transom gudgeons and then we should be able to use a straight rod, which should make on and off even easier.

#19 sail91

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:32 PM

Nice job ... rudder looks great.

I almost bought one of these boats. I went to Lake Lanier and test sailed one. I liked the boat. We had a great sail until we got hit by a small thunderstorm. We had 20+kts wind for about 20 minutes. We were reaching back and forth with the Main + Jib and I just could not believe how much helm pressure there was. I was worn out. Your new rudder looks similar to one from Jim Antrim on the Ultimate's. Getting the rudder slightly under the hull should greatly improve controll. Fuck those PHRF rating guys. Make your boat the best it can be and enjoy it.

:D

good luck ... let us know how it goes.

#20 facthunt

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:12 AM

the blade and pintal geometry look good, the crank tiller handle introduces a whole lot of twisting and bending, dont know why you would make it like that.

#21 MR.CLEAN

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:42 AM

Next season we'll replace the transom gudgeons and then we should be able to use a straight rod, which should make on and off even easier.


Having replaced quite a few M24 gudgeons, a quick note on this one Ryley:

Be very, very careful when you bed down the gudgeons. Even the slightest mismeasurement and you'll find it near impossible to get a single pin in on the water.

When you dry-fit, if you have even a tiny bit of excessive friction sliding the pin in, it can translate to an impossible job later.

After a few jobs, we got a laser and set it up on a tripod to get the measurements exact.

#22 Ryley

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 11:11 AM

Nice job ... rudder looks great.

I almost bought one of these boats. I went to Lake Lanier and test sailed one. I liked the boat. We had a great sail until we got hit by a small thunderstorm. We had 20+kts wind for about 20 minutes. We were reaching back and forth with the Main + Jib and I just could not believe how much helm pressure there was. I was worn out. Your new rudder looks similar to one from Jim Antrim on the Ultimate's. Getting the rudder slightly under the hull should greatly improve controll. Fuck those PHRF rating guys. Make your boat the best it can be and enjoy it.

:D

good luck ... let us know how it goes.


Thanks, sail91, that was one of the considerations. We do a few point to point races and the stock rudder does load up pretty highly. I've only had the boat out once, in extremely light air, but so far I'm very happy with the way it feels. Hopefully after Saturday I'll have a better feel of how it performs when it's loaded up.

the blade and pintal geometry look good, the crank tiller handle introduces a whole lot of twisting and bending, dont know why you would make it like that.


facthunt, can you explain more of what you mean by "crank tiller handle?" If it were your tiller, what would you have drawn? I rather like the way the tiller fits over the rudder head, and I'm not sure where the twisting and bending will occur, but I'm definitely interested in your insight.

Having replaced quite a few M24 gudgeons, a quick note on this one Ryley:

Be very, very careful when you bed down the gudgeons. Even the slightest mismeasurement and you'll find it near impossible to get a single pin in on the water.

When you dry-fit, if you have even a tiny bit of excessive friction sliding the pin in, it can translate to an impossible job later.

After a few jobs, we got a laser and set it up on a tripod to get the measurements exact.


Thanks, Clean, I appreciate the advice and I suspect we'll do something similar. I also suspect that the reason I can't use a single pin right now is because the gudgeons don't quite line up.

#23 facthunt

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 05:41 AM

because the tiller handle is bent between the extention uni and the ruder head any steering force will create a torque moment through the tiller stock.
take the stock off, hold the clevis end and get someone to push the steering end you will find it wants to spin in your hand
a straight stock could be lighter and stiffer, providing a more accurate and tighter feel on the helm.

your ruder looks to be pretty balanceed so it shouldnt bother too much either way.



when fitting gudgieons with a through pin,bed them on with epoxy glue and the pin through for alignment, tighten the fasteners a little while checking the drag on the pin.
come back and torque the fasteners down when the the epoxy has cured.

#24 Ryley

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 10:45 AM

because the tiller handle is bent between the extention uni and the ruder head any steering force will create a torque moment through the tiller stock.
take the stock off, hold the clevis end and get someone to push the steering end you will find it wants to spin in your hand
a straight stock could be lighter and stiffer, providing a more accurate and tighter feel on the helm.

your ruder looks to be pretty balanceed so it shouldnt bother too much either way.



when fitting gudgieons with a through pin,bed them on with epoxy glue and the pin through for alignment, tighten the fasteners a little while checking the drag on the pin.
come back and torque the fasteners down when the the epoxy has cured.


I see what you're saying - thank you for the feedback. I should have a better feel for how the rudder goes on Saturday, but my initial thoughts are that there isn't that much torque in the tiller - once it's loaded up, I can see where that *may* be a problem - will keep an eye on it. A straight tiller presents its own challenges, but nothing that's not surmountable. I will say that the current tiller is pretty light - around 2 lbs I think - and feels pretty stiff. And ANYTHING is an improvement over stock ;)

Thanks again for the advice on aligning the gudgeons. I think it will be an interesting project to say the least.

#25 Ryley

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:37 AM

We had our first sail in any real breeze today - only 3 crew, two of whom together probably weigh the same as me. Very fluky conditions in Bahstahn Hahbah with a W-NW wind running about 8-12 with gusts into the mid teens.

Upwind, the rudder feels very balanced, with less weather helm than the class rudder, but still providing enough feedback to be effective and provide the lift needed to point well. The water was flat, and the tacks were carried through a much longer arc and carried more momentum than the class rudder. There were no stalling issues, but we worked pretty hard to keep the boat flat even when overpowered upwind. The boat tracks very straight, but the boat also feels more maneuverable and I was able to react to lifts and headers a bit faster than the stock rudder.

Downwind, it was easy to react to puffs and keep the boat on its feet. It is definitely less forgiving than the stock rudder, but reattaching flow was easy - just a quick tug on the tiller and it was back in control. we saw a high of around 9 knots, averaging between 7 and 8 most of the time.

The tricky point of sail is the reach, especially when you're a bit overpowered and undercrewed. We had a hard time getting the weight back far enough to keep the rudder attached at times we really needed to pinch along a shoreline, but I think with a full crew and a little more practice we can make it work.

Overall, the rudder meets the design goals, and that translates into actually exceeding my expectations. It's hard to know what this translates into competition-wise, but we'll start knowing that on Wednesday when our series starts.

#26 jc172528

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:31 AM

Keep the updates rolling in, much appreciated.

#27 facthunt

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:21 PM

We had our first sail in any real breeze today - only 3 crew, two of whom together probably weigh the same as me. Very fluky conditions in Bahstahn Hahbah with a W-NW wind running about 8-12 with gusts into the mid teens.

Upwind, the rudder feels very balanced, with less weather helm than the class rudder, but still providing enough feedback to be effective and provide the lift needed to point well. The water was flat, and the tacks were carried through a much longer arc and carried more momentum than the class rudder. There were no stalling issues, but we worked pretty hard to keep the boat flat even when overpowered upwind. The boat tracks very straight, but the boat also feels more maneuverable and I was able to react to lifts and headers a bit faster than the stock rudder.

Downwind, it was easy to react to puffs and keep the boat on its feet. It is definitely less forgiving than the stock rudder, but reattaching flow was easy - just a quick tug on the tiller and it was back in control. we saw a high of around 9 knots, averaging between 7 and 8 most of the time.

The tricky point of sail is the reach, especially when you're a bit overpowered and undercrewed. We had a hard time getting the weight back far enough to keep the rudder attached at times we really needed to pinch along a shoreline, but I think with a full crew and a little more practice we can make it work.

Overall, the rudder meets the design goals, and that translates into actually exceeding my expectations. It's hard to know what this translates into competition-wise, but we'll start knowing that on Wednesday when our series starts.



are you saying it stalls before the old blade? is this relative to the load at the tiller extention or the load on the boat ie you cant press the boat as hard?
because the new blade is more balanced the load at the tiller will be less before stall given the same lift on both blades.

#28 Ryley

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 02:15 AM

facthunt,
the thinner blade definitely breaks free a bit sooner than the original blade. Here's what Jim Taylor had to say:


...The lighter feel comes from the ‘balance’ area ahead of the axis of the new rudder, and the old rudder did not have any balance at all. The lower drag of the new blade allows you to carry speed through a tack longer, and to build speed quicker. And it should be a good bit faster VMG sailing all the time, upwind and downwind. There is no free lunch, however, and the thicker ‘blunt instrument’ old blade with the bigger nose radius may resist stall a bit better when overloaded. In that ‘tweener’ condition (power reaching, but not quite fast enough to plane) shifting weight aggressively aft will gain three ways: it will increase stability, and so reduce heel and helm. It will raise the bow out of the water, and thus reduce helm still more. And it will keep the top of the rudder immersed, so it won’t ventilate as often... I think that you will quickly identify a heel angle ‘redline’ that will help a lot.


I have already started to zero in on the redline heel angle - again, I think part of our problem was being underweight for what we were trying to do, which was to go close-reach in blustery conditions. Our reacher is pretty good to 60 degrees apparent IF the wind is below 10 knots, which isn't what we had. I think the major consideration will be to stack the back of the bus, like JT points out.

Wednesday will be our first fully-crewed race with the new rudder. The conditions right now are predicted to be reasonably light, but we will see. It's New England - it'll probably be a gale by 6 on Wed ;)

#29 facthunt

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:57 AM

facthunt,
the thinner blade definitely breaks free a bit sooner than the original blade. Here's what Jim Taylor had to say:


...The lighter feel comes from the 'balance' area ahead of the axis of the new rudder, and the old rudder did not have any balance at all. The lower drag of the new blade allows you to carry speed through a tack longer, and to build speed quicker. And it should be a good bit faster VMG sailing all the time, upwind and downwind. There is no free lunch, however, and the thicker 'blunt instrument' old blade with the bigger nose radius may resist stall a bit better when overloaded. In that 'tweener' condition (power reaching, but not quite fast enough to plane) shifting weight aggressively aft will gain three ways: it will increase stability, and so reduce heel and helm. It will raise the bow out of the water, and thus reduce helm still more. And it will keep the top of the rudder immersed, so it won't ventilate as often... I think that you will quickly identify a heel angle 'redline' that will help a lot.


I have already started to zero in on the redline heel angle - again, I think part of our problem was being underweight for what we were trying to do, which was to go close-reach in blustery conditions. Our reacher is pretty good to 60 degrees apparent IF the wind is below 10 knots, which isn't what we had. I think the major consideration will be to stack the back of the bus, like JT points out.

Wednesday will be our first fully-crewed race with the new rudder. The conditions right now are predicted to be reasonably light, but we will see. It's New England - it'll probably be a gale by 6 on Wed ;)


good luck on wednesday.

#30 Ryley

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:29 PM

Thanks facthunt - wednesday went very well.. couldn't have asked for better, actually. we were able to find a puff on our first downwind leg that got us to 10.4 knots when everyone else was kind of wallowing - the control was fingertip and amazing. Upwind felt pretty good. the breeze was only around 9 knots with gusts higher, but we were keeping pace with a Pearson 37 upwind. The Alerion 38 was faster than us upwind but we could pull away downwind. Overall, I can't complain.

#31 Jerryd

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:42 AM

Thanks facthunt - wednesday went very well.. couldn't have asked for better, actually. we were able to find a puff on our first downwind leg that got us to 10.4 knots when everyone else was kind of wallowing - the control was fingertip and amazing. Upwind felt pretty good. the breeze was only around 9 knots with gusts higher, but we were keeping pace with a Pearson 37 upwind. The Alerion 38 was faster than us upwind but we could pull away downwind. Overall, I can't complain.


Ryley.

So what's the latest on your new rudder?

#32 Ryley

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 05:42 PM

Jerry,
we did an overnight race to gloucester and back to boston this weekend. The winds were a little challenging, but I noticed a couple things that never happened before. First, when we were surfing off waves fully powered up, there were times when I could just about release the helm and it stayed balanced and tracking. The old rudder would have been fighting to stay on track.

Second, on the close reaching back from Gloucester, the helm remained light and controlled, no undue weather helm, and in fact if anything I need to retrain myself on the feel of the helm - there were several times when I probably had more angle than was 'healthy' for lift, but the helm remains so light that you really have to pay attention to the rudder angle more, it doesn't have the same feel.

After 40 miles and 7 hours of sailing, the fatigue wasn't because of the helm for once. Also, I don't worry about the rudder cassette breaking just because we were in 1-3' seas.

Also, now that we've had it out in a few fair blows I've found that you can really anticipate it breaking free and it hasn't since the first day. Definitely worth the investment and worth the 1-3 seconds/mile I've been penalized.

There was some talk earlier about whether the curved tiller would be strong enough for the loads. I have to say that I haven't seen loads on the rudder that would cause me any serious concern - everything is rock solid.

If you have any specific questions, fire away.

#33 Jerryd

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:15 AM

Jerry,
we did an overnight race to gloucester and back to boston this weekend. The winds were a little challenging, but I noticed a couple things that never happened before. First, when we were surfing off waves fully powered up, there were times when I could just about release the helm and it stayed balanced and tracking. The old rudder would have been fighting to stay on track.

Second, on the close reaching back from Gloucester, the helm remained light and controlled, no undue weather helm, and in fact if anything I need to retrain myself on the feel of the helm - there were several times when I probably had more angle than was 'healthy' for lift, but the helm remains so light that you really have to pay attention to the rudder angle more, it doesn't have the same feel.

After 40 miles and 7 hours of sailing, the fatigue wasn't because of the helm for once. Also, I don't worry about the rudder cassette breaking just because we were in 1-3' seas.

Also, now that we've had it out in a few fair blows I've found that you can really anticipate it breaking free and it hasn't since the first day. Definitely worth the investment and worth the 1-3 seconds/mile I've been penalized.

There was some talk earlier about whether the curved tiller would be strong enough for the loads. I have to say that I haven't seen loads on the rudder that would cause me any serious concern - everything is rock solid.

If you have any specific questions, fire away.




Ryley,

Thanks for the update! I finally found someone to build a new on for me. They moved the shaft back a few inches to help with the balance problem and also went to a thinner and deeper profile. Should help a lot with the excessive helm on the old one and control down wind. I hope I don't lose my upwind pointing perfomance.

Old and new. Sorry boys for lack of sportboat content ;)

Attached Files



#34 Ryley

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

Looks pretty sweet,Jerry - bet you won't see any degradation in pointing.

#35 kmcfast

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:31 AM


Jerry,
we did an overnight race to gloucester and back to boston this weekend. The winds were a little challenging, but I noticed a couple things that never happened before. First, when we were surfing off waves fully powered up, there were times when I could just about release the helm and it stayed balanced and tracking. The old rudder would have been fighting to stay on track.

Second, on the close reaching back from Gloucester, the helm remained light and controlled, no undue weather helm, and in fact if anything I need to retrain myself on the feel of the helm - there were several times when I probably had more angle than was 'healthy' for lift, but the helm remains so light that you really have to pay attention to the rudder angle more, it doesn't have the same feel.

After 40 miles and 7 hours of sailing, the fatigue wasn't because of the helm for once. Also, I don't worry about the rudder cassette breaking just because we were in 1-3' seas.

Also, now that we've had it out in a few fair blows I've found that you can really anticipate it breaking free and it hasn't since the first day. Definitely worth the investment and worth the 1-3 seconds/mile I've been penalized.

There was some talk earlier about whether the curved tiller would be strong enough for the loads. I have to say that I haven't seen loads on the rudder that would cause me any serious concern - everything is rock solid.

If you have any specific questions, fire away.




Ryley,

Thanks for the update! I finally found someone to build a new on for me. They moved the shaft back a few inches to help with the balance problem and also went to a thinner and deeper profile. Should help a lot with the excessive helm on the old one and control down wind. I hope I don't lose my upwind pointing perfomance.

Old and new. Sorry boys for lack of sportboat content ;)

That looks like a Billy Brennan from PDX rudder.
They work great on Martin 242/241
No excuse to lose now.....

#36 Jerryd

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:43 AM



Jerry,
we did an overnight race to gloucester and back to boston this weekend. The winds were a little challenging, but I noticed a couple things that never happened before. First, when we were surfing off waves fully powered up, there were times when I could just about release the helm and it stayed balanced and tracking. The old rudder would have been fighting to stay on track.

Second, on the close reaching back from Gloucester, the helm remained light and controlled, no undue weather helm, and in fact if anything I need to retrain myself on the feel of the helm - there were several times when I probably had more angle than was 'healthy' for lift, but the helm remains so light that you really have to pay attention to the rudder angle more, it doesn't have the same feel.

After 40 miles and 7 hours of sailing, the fatigue wasn't because of the helm for once. Also, I don't worry about the rudder cassette breaking just because we were in 1-3' seas.

Also, now that we've had it out in a few fair blows I've found that you can really anticipate it breaking free and it hasn't since the first day. Definitely worth the investment and worth the 1-3 seconds/mile I've been penalized.

There was some talk earlier about whether the curved tiller would be strong enough for the loads. I have to say that I haven't seen loads on the rudder that would cause me any serious concern - everything is rock solid.

If you have any specific questions, fire away.




Ryley,

Thanks for the update! I finally found someone to build a new on for me. They moved the shaft back a few inches to help with the balance problem and also went to a thinner and deeper profile. Should help a lot with the excessive helm on the old one and control down wind. I hope I don't lose my upwind pointing perfomance.

Old and new. Sorry boys for lack of sportboat content ;)

That looks like a Billy Brennan from PDX rudder.
They work great on Martin 242/241
No excuse to lose now.....


Not sure who PDX is? Bill did build it though. Never lost with the old one ;) , but I wanted better downwind control in big winds and less rudder load upwind. We're going to try it tonight.

#37 kmcfast

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 01:44 PM




Jerry,
we did an overnight race to gloucester and back to boston this weekend. The winds were a little challenging, but I noticed a couple things that never happened before. First, when we were surfing off waves fully powered up, there were times when I could just about release the helm and it stayed balanced and tracking. The old rudder would have been fighting to stay on track.

Second, on the close reaching back from Gloucester, the helm remained light and controlled, no undue weather helm, and in fact if anything I need to retrain myself on the feel of the helm - there were several times when I probably had more angle than was 'healthy' for lift, but the helm remains so light that you really have to pay attention to the rudder angle more, it doesn't have the same feel.

After 40 miles and 7 hours of sailing, the fatigue wasn't because of the helm for once. Also, I don't worry about the rudder cassette breaking just because we were in 1-3' seas.

Also, now that we've had it out in a few fair blows I've found that you can really anticipate it breaking free and it hasn't since the first day. Definitely worth the investment and worth the 1-3 seconds/mile I've been penalized.

There was some talk earlier about whether the curved tiller would be strong enough for the loads. I have to say that I haven't seen loads on the rudder that would cause me any serious concern - everything is rock solid.

If you have any specific questions, fire away.




Ryley,

Thanks for the update! I finally found someone to build a new on for me. They moved the shaft back a few inches to help with the balance problem and also went to a thinner and deeper profile. Should help a lot with the excessive helm on the old one and control down wind. I hope I don't lose my upwind pointing perfomance.

Old and new. Sorry boys for lack of sportboat content ;)

That looks like a Billy Brennan from PDX rudder.
They work great on Martin 242/241
No excuse to lose now.....


Not sure who PDX is? Bill did build it though. Never lost with the old one ;) , but I wanted better downwind control in big winds and less rudder load upwind. We're going to try it tonight.

How da rudder work? PDX is Portland Int. Airport

#38 Ryley

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 03:42 PM

This past weekend we had every condition including about 18 - 20 knots with short choppy seas, under-crewed boat. even at our top speeds in the teens, the rudder never felt like it was going to lose its bite. the balance was good enough that even when the tiller extension was accidentally knocked from my hand while we were surfing a wave at 11 knots, I had time to grab the extension and keep going as if nothing had happened. No broaches, no bad habits, in fact it probably saved me on a couple of the gybes that were a little less controlled than I would have wanted.

I already knew it was good in the light stuff, now I know that on a long, hard race it keeps its control too. One of the better investments I've made in RockIt.

#39 Jerryd

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Posted 18 September 2012 - 07:20 PM

Same with my new rudder on the Martin. Finger tip control at high winds and less drag in light. Best $1000 I've ever spent!

#40 Jerryd

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

Ryley,

Decided to pull the trigger on a new rudder for the Rocket. I went to Phil's Folis and couldn't be happier. I decided on a cassette style for ease of launching as well as being to leave on the trailer. Just need a new shorter pin, and possibly beef up the transom for extra loads.

Attached Files



#41 barnone

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

Looks good. You at least need a G10 or carbon plate on the outside and some glassing, preferably carbon on back side that ties deck to hull. Prob 10" wide.

The Phils Foil is MUCH more grippy and strong than the OD rudder and your transom would definitely go by by.

How wide are your carbon gudgeons? If they are the same size as OD, then you could use Melges 24 gudgeons instead of the shaeffer which eventually fatigue.

My rudder has wider carbon gudgeons.

#42 Jerryd

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:19 PM

Looks good. You at least need a G10 or carbon plate on the outside and some glassing, preferably carbon on back side that ties deck to hull. Prob 10" wide.

The Phils Foil is MUCH more grippy and strong than the OD rudder and your transom would definitely go by by.

How wide are your carbon gudgeons? If they are the same size as OD, then you could use Melges 24 gudgeons instead of the shaeffer which eventually fatigue.

My rudder has wider carbon gudgeons.


PM'd you.

#43 Ryley

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:25 PM

Ryley,

Decided to pull the trigger on a new rudder for the Rocket. I went to Phil's Folis and couldn't be happier. I decided on a cassette style for ease of launching as well as being to leave on the trailer. Just need a new shorter pin, and possibly beef up the transom for extra loads.


That looks awesome. We talked to them a few years ago about a cassette design for the Elliott but decided against it. Instead of G-10 on the outside, you could go with some HD foam and carbon on the inside so you don't change the outside profile at all. Keep us posted when you start sailing it.

Interesting comment about the grip though. I sailed on NYD with the stock rudder and it was like trying to steer through cement - the stock system loads up a LOT more than the new rudder. I wonder if you'll find the same.

#44 OJ O'Connell

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:29 PM

Sweet boat, and sweet new rudder

#45 Jerryd

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

Sweet boat, and sweet new rudder


Thanks

#46 Jerryd

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:45 PM


Ryley,

Decided to pull the trigger on a new rudder for the Rocket. I went to Phil's Folis and couldn't be happier. I decided on a cassette style for ease of launching as well as being to leave on the trailer. Just need a new shorter pin, and possibly beef up the transom for extra loads.


That looks awesome. We talked to them a few years ago about a cassette design for the Elliott but decided against it. Instead of G-10 on the outside, you could go with some HD foam and carbon on the inside so you don't change the outside profile at all. Keep us posted when you start sailing it.



I'm thinking about the inside only also. Barnone is sailing on the Gorge with very "manly" winds! So if definitely needed. Not the case here, 25 is a big day!

#47 Ryley

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:31 PM

Shameless self promotion, especially since we were using a 10 year old main and the old rudder, but this is how I spent NYD - at least until we blew up the main.



#48 Nrg85

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

Ryley,

Decided to pull the trigger on a new rudder for the Rocket. I went to Phil's Folis and couldn't be happier. I decided on a cassette style for ease of launching as well as being to leave on the trailer. Just need a new shorter pin, and possibly beef up the transom for extra loads.


What do you put between the rudder and the cassette?

#49 Jerryd

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:13 PM


Ryley,

Decided to pull the trigger on a new rudder for the Rocket. I went to Phil's Folis and couldn't be happier. I decided on a cassette style for ease of launching as well as being to leave on the trailer. Just need a new shorter pin, and possibly beef up the transom for extra loads.


What do you put between the rudder and the cassette?


I'm going to use 2" white Velcro (fuzzy side) where needed.

#50 Nrg85

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:08 PM

I see, do you intend to glue it at the cassette or attach it some other way?
How much bigger cassette needs to be than the rudder?

#51 Ryley

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 08:13 PM



Ryley,

Decided to pull the trigger on a new rudder for the Rocket. I went to Phil's Folis and couldn't be happier. I decided on a cassette style for ease of launching as well as being to leave on the trailer. Just need a new shorter pin, and possibly beef up the transom for extra loads.


What do you put between the rudder and the cassette?


I'm going to use 2" white Velcro (fuzzy side) where needed.


I used gorilla tape on the delrin in the old cassette - made it just stiff enough to hold the rudder in most conditions. Someone else in the class put a threaded nut with a handwheel through the back of the cassette to put pressure on the rudder and hold it in place. you could also easily put a pin. but the fuzzy velcro is probably a good solution.

#52 MoMP

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:23 AM

Just an observation. Also, the inner harbor is my stomping grounds as well. Seems you're fighting the chute. I can see the effects of the puffs coming through the buildings and get that. Would playing the vang and sailing a bit higher be beneficial? I'm looking at it from multihull and J105 chute trimming experience. Nice boat, btw.

#53 Ryley

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

Just an observation. Also, the inner harbor is my stomping grounds as well. Seems you're fighting the chute. I can see the effects of the puffs coming through the buildings and get that. Would playing the vang and sailing a bit higher be beneficial? I'm looking at it from multihull and J105 chute trimming experience. Nice boat, btw.


Oh yeah, we were fighting everything. The old rudder makes it harder to find the groove in those conditions, and we definitely could have been playing the vang more. There are a lot of things we forgot to do or to take into consideration that day, including the increased density of an 18 knot wind in 35 degrees vs 80 degrees. We should have had the flattening reef in, we should have had the traveler up going downwind, and we should have dropped the jib - I didn't because I didn't want the weight on the bow. For once it wasn't really the buildings causing the problem but honest wind gust changes between a low around 12 to a high around 25. While we were on plane, we were very stable and very deep on the TWA, but the balance just wasn't quite there. It just didn't seem possible or prudent to sail much hotter than we were in the given conditions. On the gybe, we got the chute around really well, but then it wasn't eased fast enough and the weight didn't come up quick enough and it pinned us down for 10 or 15 seconds.

All of these are things we'd normally discuss before a race and we didn't this time - I put that on me. Still, despite destroying the main (first time I've ever completely ruined a sail), it was overall a good time. At least, the crew's still speaking to me ;)

#54 redboat

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:48 PM

Nice vid Ryley. Must say you certainly get out and enjoy your boat in many and varied conditions and venues.

Was a chilly day. Friend of mine was going to do the same race, went to boat and found docklines and a few other bits frozen up so packed it in.

#55 Ryley

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 03:47 PM

Nice vid Ryley. Must say you certainly get out and enjoy your boat in many and varied conditions and venues.

Was a chilly day. Friend of mine was going to do the same race, went to boat and found docklines and a few other bits frozen up so packed it in.

We almost didn't make it either. the boat was on a trailer in CT and I was all set to go up the weekend before the race, and we got hit with snow. We hauled the boat up (thank you 4wd Tacoma) and had to not only shovel it clean, but unfreeze the keel line and the winches just to get the thing rigged. We washed the decks down with seawater and then spread icemelt to keep my foredeck crew safe. One of the other boats that was supposed to race couldn't get out of their slip because of the ice, and I think that's what happened to most of the J24s that usually show up as well. Ah well, last year it was 55 and blowing about 4, so this was an adventure of another kind :)




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