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Marking Halyards


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#1 eclipsemullet

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:56 AM

What's the best way to make a mark on a (dark) halyard?

#2 Somebody Else

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 07:58 AM

Sew through with white thread.

#3 challange

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 08:02 AM

white whipping, or Tipex (white-out for the yanks)

#4 tuf-luf

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 10:59 AM

white whipping, or Tipex (white-out for the yanks)

...or Blanco for the SE Asian ;)

#5 LoopyGirdleSniffer

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:16 AM

Replace it with a light colored one

What's the best way to make a mark on a (dark) halyard?



#6 shaggybaxter

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 11:33 AM

I'd suggest maybe a light dinner, nothing too heavy at first.

What ever you do, don't talk about yourself, let them do the talking.

Go slow early, and good luck with it!

SB

#7 SYCFCC

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:07 PM

Lesson 2.

How to put your underpants on the right way around

#8 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 12:27 PM

I guess using it as butt floss won't be visible.. but it will leave a mark.

#9 Somebody Else

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 02:38 PM

white whipping, or Tipex (white-out for the yanks)

...or Blanco for the SE Asian ;)

Wears off.

Whip it.

#10 markvannote

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 03:04 PM

What's the best way to make a mark on a (dark) halyard?


Silver Sharpie's work fairly well but it does need upkeep. If you are going to whip a mark on make sure the halyard is well worked in so the cover and core are settled in so you do not create any cover slack build-up where you may not want it.

Thanks.
Mark

#11 One eye Jack

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 03:24 PM

1335612827[/url]' post='3690698']
I'd suggest maybe a light dinner, nothing too heavy at first.

What ever you do, don't talk about yourself, let them do the talking.

Go slow early, and good luck with it!

SB


White wine exceptible? Or red?

#12 sockeye

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 06:06 AM

exceptible

#13 Matt B

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:02 AM

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

#14 ~HHN92~

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

What's the best way to make a mark on a (dark) halyard?


Very carefully.

#15 Somebody Else

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:43 PM

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

Defeats the purpose.

The purpose of the marks on the halyard are not to precisely dial on the tension, which is different for every sail. An experienced trimmer's eye is needed for that.

The purpose is to let the pit know when they are near the top. +/- 6 cm is close enough. There are many instances where the pit can not see the top of the rig well enough and they require verbal or hand signals from someone forward to let them know when they are near the top of the hoist. It is counter-productive and slow to lift your gaze from the job at hand.

Once the head is in the general vicinity, fine tune from there.

Now if you have some scale by the haly'd and make decent notes, you can use them to get closer to good trim. Something like "North 3Di #3, 22 knots TWS, short chop: 4.5"

Posted Image

#16 DoRag

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:22 PM


Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

Defeats the purpose.

The purpose of the marks on the halyard are not to precisely dial on the tension, which is different for every sail. An experienced trimmer's eye is needed for that.

The purpose is to let the pit know when they are near the top. +/- 6 cm is close enough. There are many instances where the pit can not see the top of the rig well enough and they require verbal or hand signals from someone forward to let them know when they are near the top of the hoist. It is counter-productive and slow to lift your gaze from the job at hand.

Once the head is in the general vicinity, fine tune from there.

Now if you have some scale by the haly'd and make decent notes, you can use them to get closer to good trim. Something like "North 3Di #3, 22 knots TWS, short chop: 4.5"

Posted Image


Nah. We need to mark the halyards so the crew will tend the correct line.

#17 BJJC

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 04:29 PM

Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.


Hopefully your halyards have far less stretch and movment than any sail. Marking the halyard is far more accurate than the sails luff with corresponding headstay mark.

#18 DoRag

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:10 PM


Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.


Hopefully your halyards have far less stretch and movment than any sail. Marking the halyard is far more accurate than the sails luff with corresponding headstay mark.


How 'bout them plastic sails? Think they stretch?

#19 atwinda

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:20 PM


Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.


Hopefully your halyards have far less stretch and movment than any sail. Marking the halyard is far more accurate than the sails luff with corresponding headstay mark.


Any sail? Dacron maybe... But carbon? 3di... I think your blanket statement was a bit bold.

#20 SoCalSlacker

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:36 PM

Wrap with white or storm orange insignia cloth (aka sticky back) for 2-6 inches then stitch the edges of the sticky back down

#21 axolotl

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:36 PM

Marking line with felt pens and the like is not a good idea:

"Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and by some rope manufacturers have shown that rope
marking with liquids such as those provided by felt-tipped pens can be dangerous, even with those
markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results showed a decrease up to approximately
50% of the rope strength . . ."

Marking with thread isn't too effective because it's hard to see. Instead, use brightly colored (colorfast synthetic) knitting yarn woven in several times around with a small sailmaker's needle. A nice feature is the mark can be removed later if it needs to be relocated.

Concerning where to mark, two block the halyard (tightly but no winching) using a messenger line and make the mark in front of the clutch where you can put a 0-10 number strip with the zero at the mark. The mark can't enter the clutch and "disappear." One strip suffices for a bank of clutches. Of course there's no mark on the main halyard; the black band on the mast is what counts.

#22 some dude

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 07:55 PM

how about looking at the sail?

#23 markvannote

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:19 PM

I have used the marking the foil and sail method before but found some issues with it. On a boat like a Farr 40 your headstay may be longer or shorter by quite a bit within the range of, say, the medium depending on where you are in your rig tune. On an inline spreader rig you need to have the runner/backstay at the proper setting before you go to your mark for it to be accurate. Last issue being there is usually a bit of play in your foil on the stay up and down, especially if you are at max runner/backstay. There is the possibility of the sail having enough tug in it after hoisting that the foil is in the "up" position.

I don't recall seeing a halyard saturated with a marker to the point that it has stained the core.

The halyard clearly gets played throughout a race but with enough communication between a trimmer and pitman as to what looks good the pitman should be able to look at the windspeed before the leeward mark and set the halyard to a mark on the deck. The trimmer letting the pitman know about any changes they have made during a leg will let him/her know to have a look at the final setting before going downwind. Hopefully, he/she will ask for the windspeed after having a peek.

Long story short, I am still a fan of the sharpie, silver if on a dark halyard. That said, I try to avoid black cover on main and jib halyards for this reason.

Thanks.
Mark

#24 Joakim

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:55 PM

Marking line with felt pens and the like is not a good idea:
"Tests done by the UIAA Safety Commission and by some rope manufacturers have shown that rope
marking with liquids such as those provided by felt-tipped pens can be dangerous, even with those
markers, sold specifically for marking ropes. The test results showed a decrease up to approximately
50% of the rope strength . . ."


Up to 50% is not a problem at all. A typical 10 mm dyneema halyard on a 35' boat has a breaking strength of about 5000 kg and 50% of that is about 2500 kg. The clutches used start to slip below 1000 kg thus there is still 2.5 safety factor. And typical halyard loads are up to 500 kg on that size.

#25 axolotl

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:27 PM

. . .
I don't recall seeing a halyard saturated with a marker to the point that it has stained the core.
. . .
Long story short, I am still a fan of the sharpie, silver if on a dark halyard.
. . .

Thanks.
Mark


Thanks for the reasoned observations. One thought is a cover failure mucks things up quite nicely and anecdotally occurs much more often. That said, use of felt pens, etc., is widespread with no apparent repercussions. I suspect as a top level rigger you're used to dealing with fresh lines under careful inspection instead of possibly underspec'ed line still in service way beyond its service life, when problems from solvents may surface. I've brought this issue up with riggers and all said it's not worth worrying about.

But my main point is: why tempt fate when a non-damaging alternative is available?

#26 axolotl

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 09:31 PM

Up to 50% is not a problem at all.
. . .


Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?

#27 Mark K

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 02:37 AM


Up to 50% is not a problem at all.
. . .


Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?


That was about climbing ropes.

They are made from different stuff and of a different construction. The stuff we use has covers which are only there to protect the cores from where and ease of handling. The covers do not contribute significantly to the ropes break strength. It's a different story in the stretchy stuff climbers use.

#28 Joakim

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:08 AM



Up to 50% is not a problem at all.
. . .


Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?


That was about climbing ropes.

They are made from different stuff and of a different construction. The stuff we use has covers which are only there to protect the cores from where and ease of handling. The covers do not contribute significantly to the ropes break strength. It's a different story in the stretchy stuff climbers use.


And they actually measured how many drops the rope can handle not how much tensile strength it has. The bottom line seems to be that the markng only has an effect if it is positioned at the bending point: http://cascadeclimbe...rking_it_s_back

So it probably has more to do with wear resistance than tensile strength.

#29 ccruiser

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:37 PM


Instead of marking your halyards, which stretch and move around. Why don't you mark the sails and the luff foil. Put a sharpire mark on both side of the foil, then mark each jib at the same place on the luff tape. This will be much more accurate.

Defeats the purpose.

The purpose of the marks on the halyard are not to precisely dial on the tension, which is different for every sail. An experienced trimmer's eye is needed for that.

The purpose is to let the pit know when they are near the top. +/- 6 cm is close enough. There are many instances where the pit can not see the top of the rig well enough and they require verbal or hand signals from someone forward to let them know when they are near the top of the hoist. It is counter-productive and slow to lift your gaze from the job at hand.

Once the head is in the general vicinity, fine tune from there.

Now if you have some scale by the haly'd and make decent notes, you can use them to get closer to good trim. Something like "North 3Di #3, 22 knots TWS, short chop: 4.5"

Posted Image

Agree with your earlier post and this as to best way - sewn white thread - to mark, and the probable purpose; but once the halyard is up, and except to slack tension if the conditions turn very light, is not the best way to adjust luff tension on the main or jib by way of a cunningham? Also agree for repeatablity that marking the cunningham line and using a measuring tape such as you show is the fastest way to get back to a general setting. that the trimmer can then adjust from as his eye and boat speed etc tell him.

#30 Somebody Else

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:07 PM

In Praise of Marking Lines
Marking halyards and control lines are good for returning to ball-park settings if documented. But in the end it's going to be looking at the sail, analyzing wind and sea state and the needs of the moment (e.g. point or foot) and making those fine adjustments as required.

The marks on halyards perform a far more coarse purpose -- to let the pit know when the halyard is at or near the top of the hoist. During a rounding, things happen fast. The hoister may need to keep his or her attention in near focus -- to prevent a winch over-ride, maybe. Other crew may be too busy or lack a clear view of the top of the mast to call it when it's at the top.

If, for whatever reason, the halyard becomes difficult part-way into the hoist, the absolute fastest diagnostics can be done by the pit noticing where the hoist mark is in relation to the reference.

On other lines, good marks can help in set-it-and-forget-it situations. I've put marks on the mast where the butt end of the pole might be and corresponding marks on the pole lift where it should be set to make the pole level; if the butt is at the red mark on the mast and the lift is on the red mark, the pole will be level. Very helpful during roundings. Marks on the afterguy (brace) can tell you when it is eased as close as it can get to the forestay without touching. Very helpful when gybing reach-to-reach.

Another useful mark is jib sheet for reaching. Set it at the windward mark -- close enough. Get on with the next job. Saves a full second or more on each rounding.

I've spent a lot of time on 3-man keelboats and these aids can really make life easier. They help on large keelboats and dinghies too, but seem to really help in one-design keelboats (Etchells, J22, etc.) They are not necessary -- at all -- but if I am in charge of the boat on some level, I will have various marks in place. Having the ability to snap instantly into almost perfect settings can turn tight roundings into huge gains. Among other advantages, it allows you to get your head out of the boat sooner and be on your way.

A lot of racing involves prioritizing. Haven't we all been on boats where the priorities have become lost in the scramble to fix a problem? There is a particular boat in our fleet that, whenever there is a problem, which is several times per race, the skipper loses all perspective and the boat's course goes all to hell. What may have been a boatlength or two lost due to the problem turns into 10 or 20 boatlengths as the boat wanders off the course while trying to fix whatever the screw-up du jour is.

#31 Mark K

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 07:24 PM




Up to 50% is not a problem at all.
. . .


Agreed the tensile strength of modern lines far exceeds service requirements. But why do something that may result in a 50% decrease when it's not necessary?


That was about climbing ropes.

They are made from different stuff and of a different construction. The stuff we use has covers which are only there to protect the cores from where and ease of handling. The covers do not contribute significantly to the ropes break strength. It's a different story in the stretchy stuff climbers use.


And they actually measured how many drops the rope can handle not how much tensile strength it has. The bottom line seems to be that the markng only has an effect if it is positioned at the bending point: http://cascadeclimbe...rking_it_s_back

So it probably has more to do with wear resistance than tensile strength.


Don't know. The solvents in flash-drying inks can be pretty hairy stuff. Wouldn't surprise me to find that Nylon hardens and goes brittle when doused by one of them. It's strength and utility in climbing depends much on it's stretchiness for shock absorption, a quality that can be a highly perishable one in fibers.

If these inks did any noticeable damage to polyester and polypropylene covers on narine lines I think it would have been discovered by now, by somebody.

For those still worried, whip it with some thread or paint it with maxi-jacket, I guess.

#32 jolly

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 05:34 AM

how about looking at the sail?


what?.....you mean pit looks forward at what they are doing when they are tailing and winching?


that could catch on.........

#33 sumpin

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:01 AM

duh

and shit don't break that way

#34 Skiddy

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:33 AM


how about looking at the sail?


what?.....you mean pit looks forward at what they are doing when they are tailing and winching?


that could catch on.........


Depends on the boat, I guess.

On the TP I sail on occasionally, we mark the kite halyard - difficult to see whether it is all the way to the top from 25m away and with the masthead behind the square-top main and the jib.
Also, we do not have self-tailing primaries, so with four grinders the pit guy struggles to just keep up tailing, forget about checking what is happening aloft...




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