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#101 masameet

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:12 PM

Rex II ... No tits in this photo, taken hours before the Aegean, her skipper and his regular crew were destroyed. But one of the crew is looking straight at the photog and he looks very happy: link

Photo by Susan Hoffman / Newport Beach Patch

#102 DB Cooper

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:15 PM

A Hunter 37 with an outboard!? That's a strange suggestion!

You're not reading carefully.




#103 fstued

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:17 PM

Interesting comments on this tragedy. Lots of other things interesting to. No news of this in the local San Diego paper on Sun morning the UT or other local media but it was in the SF paper. I'll write that off that the UT is a large piece of crap that didn't cover much of the AC 45 races in SD bay until the last day. So not a surprise


One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the operations that the Navy and the Seals do nightly off the SD coast. I see them headed to sea almost every time I am on the bay at 1700hrs and that is frequently. They move fast and dark. Do they have support boats out there? One of the Navy's littoral ships was going to sea Sat PM out of SD I saw it, Where were they at the time of the accident? Some of the things we probably can be sure of It wasn't a whale, it wasn't an explosion, Probably wasn't a cruise ship or a large freighter some one in the fleet would have seen those, they have lights. Maybe a smugglers boat, They are usually small and fast Even a 40' one would suffer damage from the 37'ftr. It is all very strange so far. Some one is not telling everything.


#104 wabbiteer

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:30 PM


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


And who's fault is that? The ship's or yours?

In the absence of common sense, isn't there a rule which covers this?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Regulations_for_Preventing_Collisions_at_Sea

18. Responsibilities between vessels
Except in narrow channels, traffic separation schemes, and when overtaking (i.e. rules 9, 10, and 13)
A power-driven vessel must give way to:
a vessel not under command;
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver (this may include vessels towing one another[8]);
a vessel engaged in fishing;
a sailing vessel.

A sailing vessel must give way to:
a vessel not under command;
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver;
a vessel engaged in fishing.
A vessel engaged in fishing when underway shall, so far as possible, keep out of the way of:
a vessel not under command;
a vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver.
Any vessel other than a vessel not under command or a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre shall, if possible, not impede the safe passage of a vessel constrained by her draft, exhibiting the signals in Rule 28.
A vessel constrained by her draft shall navigate with particular caution having full regard to her special condition.



#105 R Booth

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:34 PM

What about the poorly lit fishing boats out of Tijuana area.? Is that a possibility? I've done a handful of these races & seen a few.



There's no marina in TJ, and the nearest fishing 'village' will be south of Rosarito and/or Popotla(20 road miles south), where they launch fishing pangas off the beach. And unless something got newly built in the past couple of years, the first 'real' marina south of the border is Marina La Salina, a good thirty five/forty road miles from TJ---but it's mostly a pleasure craft marina, and mostly American boats. Then ten miles south of that is Salsipuedes, a wide bay (with some fuktastic surfing) where a lot of those 200' round floating tuna corrals are moored/anchored. Ten more road miles south and you're in Ensy. Regardless, the only fishing boats I've seen over the years off Tijuana Sloughs or the bullring have been smaller US fishing boats. But the Coronados get a lot of fishing pressure from both the gringo boats, and the Ensenada sport fishers/3/4 day boats, depending on the season (yellowtail, white sea bass, yellowfin tuna & sometime albacore), but the Mexican fleet out of Ensy the majority of the time go straight out and hit the reefs off Punta Banda. The commercial Mexican fishing boats on the otherhand go wherever the fish are....but are usually lit up like the cruise ships are, and so are moving slow and easily avoidable.

I'm having a hard time right now beleiving that Aegean was struck & totalled out by anything other than a commercial freighter/tanker. I was giving prior thought to someone's earlier post about a possible 'boat engaged in illegal activity', but the more I thought about that scenario the more I think that any such boat would be doing just one of two things-----smuggling pot, or smuggling people. But since in the past those two endeavors have been performed almost always by pangas (an incredibly stout boat, though usually no more than 24' at the most, and usually carrying 150 Yammies), I would believe that a collision twixt a Hunter and a panga (moving at 25 knots) would result in major damage to both vessels....and creating a debris field containing stuff from both boats. So I'm going with stalled/impeded sailboat vs. freighter/tanker at three quarter throttle.


Regardless, thoughts with the families and friends of the sailors. King Harbor is a very small place, tight knit place. And it's where I grew up. Sad, sad fuking month for Californians.....

#106 DoRag

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:43 PM

It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....


Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?

#107 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:05 PM

Just curious. What is the current (if any) like in the area? The reason I ask is who will have juristriction? USA or Mexico? Depending on where the collision happened.

#108 DA-WOODY

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

Just curious. What is the current (if any) like in the area? The reason I ask is who will have juristriction? USA or Mexico? Depending on where the collision happened.


not that I think it will matter but

what happened was reported to have happened in Mexican waters & the current floes South (the Coronado's are in and part of Mexico)



this is making working on the N2E photos Very Hard !!!!!!!!

#109 Rex II

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:29 PM

No disrespect of the Crew of the Aegean Rag and your point given the situation well taken.

Godspeed to our lost competitors, my heart felt condolences to those they leave behind.

#110 PIL007

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:43 PM

Very fucking sad.......again.......

#111 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:01 AM

Very fucking sad.......again.......



Yup. 3,500-plus years of humans sailing the Seven Seas.....and we still haven't ironed out all the g-damn wrinkles yet. But hopefully this tragedy will help us all smooth out one more, and that we all learn something from it.....

#112 Sailabout

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:12 AM

has happened before with experienced crews..
http://www.maib.gov....file=/Ouzo_.pdf

Subsiquent Government tests proved yacht lights and radar reflectors are generally useless
Get AIS and keep out of the way

#113 gray tabby

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:26 AM

Looks like two couples, would've expected more crew on a boat that size as well (in a race situation). Condolences to the families and friends of the lost sailors.

http://www.google.co...15921a72d5a4770

AP article states collision suspected.

Another with eerie start photo.
http://alisoviejo.pa...g#photo-9758506





#114 PeterHuston

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:29 AM


It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....


Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?



NOSA has zero assets. Nothing for the organization to worry about. But the Officers and Directors, that's another story. Obviously who or whatever ran over this boat will be the primary target.

Oh....and sponsors. They will all be named too. Look at that list, and know that there are more than a couple of lawyers in the State of California just salivating like rabid dogs to go after the likes of Toyota, Mt. Gay, North Sails....and oh yeah, the clubs as sponsors too. Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.







#115 the paradox of thrift

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:29 AM

This is terrible. My thoughts are with the families and friends of the crew.

#116 ProaSailor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:31 AM

Update: Coroner IDs Two Victims, Search for Missing Sailor Continues

William Reed Johnson Jr., 57, of Torrance, and Joseph Lester Stewart, 64, of Brandenton, Florida were among the victims of Saturday's deadly crash, the San Diego County Coroner reported this afternoon. The name of the third man has not yet been released until relatives can be notified.


Registered Crewman Not Aboard Aegean

While the search continues for the missing crewmember of the Aegean, a Redondo Beach-based yacht that may have collided with a larger ship while competing in a race from Newport Beach to Mexico, one of the registered crewmen is safe at home.

Mike Patten told Redondo Beach Patch that his mother took ill and he backed out of the annual Lexus Newport Beach to Ensenada Yacht Race at the last minute.



#117 VwaP

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:32 AM



It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....




Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?



NOSA has zero assets. Nothing for the organization to worry about. But the Officers and Directors, that's another story. Obviously who or whatever ran over this boat will be the primary target.

Oh....and sponsors. They will all be named too. Look at that list, and know that there are more than a couple of lawyers in the State of California just salivating like rabid dogs to go after the likes of Toyota, Mt. Gay, North Sails....and oh yeah, the clubs as sponsors too. Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.







Save it for another day ass clown.




#118 Winky

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:35 AM

The post that has a link to the AP article has a good aerial photo of the Aegean prior to the start. A substantial boat with an inboard engine. In the article, a Vessel Assist skipper is quoted. He and his crew picked up two bodies that had a lot of trauma wounds. He sez the debris field covered "two miles" and it look like the (Aegean) had gone through a blender.

#119 moxie

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:35 AM

Another article published here and the first I've found that quoted one of the people on the scene after the accident: http://www.washingto...bnoT_story.html


Jobson's comments in that article are ridiculous.

#120 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:41 AM



It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....


Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?



NOSA has zero assets. Nothing for the organization to worry about. But the Officers and Directors, that's another story. Obviously who or whatever ran over this boat will be the primary target.

Oh....and sponsors. They will all be named too. Look at that list, and know that there are more than a couple of lawyers in the State of California just salivating like rabid dogs to go after the likes of Toyota, Mt. Gay, North Sails....and oh yeah, the clubs as sponsors too. Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.








shaking head once again

how do you post to forums on Earth being on some other planet??

You trying to Kill Racing or Just the Sponsorship of events?

do you just like to spew stuff out to sound intelligent to your self till you get corrected "Again"


Do Rag might proof your stuff for you before you hit Add Reply if you ask him/her nicely Posted Image

#121 Mark K

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:41 AM


What about the poorly lit fishing boats out of Tijuana area.? Is that a possibility? I've done a handful of these races & seen a few.



There's no marina in TJ, and the nearest fishing 'village' will be south of Rosarito and/or Popotla(20 road miles south), where they launch fishing pangas off the beach. And unless something got newly built in the past couple of years, the first 'real' marina south of the border is Marina La Salina, a good thirty five/forty road miles from TJ---but it's mostly a pleasure craft marina, and mostly American boats. Then ten miles south of that is Salsipuedes, a wide bay (with some fuktastic surfing) where a lot of those 200' round floating tuna corrals are moored/anchored. Ten more road miles south and you're in Ensy. Regardless, the only fishing boats I've seen over the years off Tijuana Sloughs or the bullring have been smaller US fishing boats. But the Coronados get a lot of fishing pressure from both the gringo boats, and the Ensenada sport fishers/3/4 day boats, depending on the season (yellowtail, white sea bass, yellowfin tuna & sometime albacore), but the Mexican fleet out of Ensy the majority of the time go straight out and hit the reefs off Punta Banda. The commercial Mexican fishing boats on the otherhand go wherever the fish are....but are usually lit up like the cruise ships are, and so are moving slow and easily avoidable.

I'm having a hard time right now beleiving that Aegean was struck & totalled out by anything other than a commercial freighter/tanker. I was giving prior thought to someone's earlier post about a possible 'boat engaged in illegal activity', but the more I thought about that scenario the more I think that any such boat would be doing just one of two things-----smuggling pot, or smuggling people. But since in the past those two endeavors have been performed almost always by pangas (an incredibly stout boat, though usually no more than 24' at the most, and usually carrying 150 Yammies), I would believe that a collision twixt a Hunter and a panga (moving at 25 knots) would result in major damage to both vessels....and creating a debris field containing stuff from both boats. So I'm going with stalled/impeded sailboat vs. freighter/tanker at three quarter throttle.


Regardless, thoughts with the families and friends of the sailors. King Harbor is a very small place, tight knit place. And it's where I grew up. Sad, sad fuking month for Californians.....



Yeah. Might have been two boats sunk, but then there would probably be more bodies.


Had a scare the one time I did that race. Thought the tanker wasn't heading all that close at all, thought it was headed towards some other boats though. The it hung a left to miss them....and suddenly, we wuz looking at red AND green. Engine started right up, so no big deal.

Always keep the flare gun handy when those babies are close, and shine a flashlight on the mainsail. Nice big glow.

#122 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:42 AM




It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....




Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?



NOSA has zero assets. Nothing for the organization to worry about. But the Officers and Directors, that's another story. Obviously who or whatever ran over this boat will be the primary target.

Oh....and sponsors. They will all be named too. Look at that list, and know that there are more than a couple of lawyers in the State of California just salivating like rabid dogs to go after the likes of Toyota, Mt. Gay, North Sails....and oh yeah, the clubs as sponsors too. Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.







Save it for another day ass clown.




+ 100

#123 masameet

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:43 AM

Just read a comment on one of the online publications regarding the Aegean skipper, Theo Mavromatis: His sister said the Coast Guard has called off the search for him.

Is there a time limit for the Coast Guard in searching for bodies?

#124 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:45 AM

http://www.powerflar...o/index.php/en/

#125 PeterHuston

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:01 AM




It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....


Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?



NOSA has zero assets. Nothing for the organization to worry about. But the Officers and Directors, that's another story. Obviously who or whatever ran over this boat will be the primary target.

Oh....and sponsors. They will all be named too. Look at that list, and know that there are more than a couple of lawyers in the State of California just salivating like rabid dogs to go after the likes of Toyota, Mt. Gay, North Sails....and oh yeah, the clubs as sponsors too. Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.








shaking head once again

how do you post to forums on Earth being on some other planet??

You trying to Kill Racing or Just the Sponsorship of events?

do you just like to spew stuff out to sound intelligent to your self till you get corrected "Again"


Do Rag might proof your stuff for you before you hit Add Reply if you ask him/her nicely Posted Image


Please stop being so naive Woody. People with families are dead. Lawyers look for opportunities to make money. It's really simple to understand for clear thinking people.


#126 sailjunky

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:01 AM

We came on the debris field about 9:45 AM. A boat called Shockwave reported it to the Coast Guard while we were trying to figure out what it was. They were about 1 mile ahead of us. I spoke with a CG officer about 11PM who had been in the race. She'd called Sector SD and fount a little: no report before a debris in water call, CG found 3 bodies and recovered one while 2 more were recovered by private boats (racers?) the debris was scattered about 1 mile across when we got there. We searched pretty hard but nothing except a life jackets, a paddle, foam, bit of oil.

Never heard a distress call and we had 16 on all night.

#127 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:01 AM

Just read a comment on one of the online publications regarding the Aegean skipper, Theo Mavromatis: His sister said the Coast Guard has called off the search for him.

Is there a time limit for the Coast Guard in searching for bodies?



I'm guessing the water is still in the low 60's right now. So we all know what that means, given that So Cal sailing rarely requires Bering Sea style foulie gear. And after reading the description of the first three bodies found?.....well, it sounds like whatever happened out there was just a bit more traumatic than your basic holed boat going down in about seven minutes.....

#128 John Gault

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:10 AM

... Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.


You really don't have a clue PH. If you've stopped slumming for jail-house lawyers like JTR, then just STFU.

#129 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:18 AM



What about the poorly lit fishing boats out of Tijuana area.? Is that a possibility? I've done a handful of these races & seen a few.



There's no marina in TJ, and the nearest fishing 'village' will be south of Rosarito and/or Popotla(20 road miles south), where they launch fishing pangas off the beach. And unless something got newly built in the past couple of years, the first 'real' marina south of the border is Marina La Salina, a good thirty five/forty road miles from TJ---but it's mostly a pleasure craft marina, and mostly American boats. Then ten miles south of that is Salsipuedes, a wide bay (with some fuktastic surfing) where a lot of those 200' round floating tuna corrals are moored/anchored. Ten more road miles south and you're in Ensy. Regardless, the only fishing boats I've seen over the years off Tijuana Sloughs or the bullring have been smaller US fishing boats. But the Coronados get a lot of fishing pressure from both the gringo boats, and the Ensenada sport fishers/3/4 day boats, depending on the season (yellowtail, white sea bass, yellowfin tuna & sometime albacore), but the Mexican fleet out of Ensy the majority of the time go straight out and hit the reefs off Punta Banda. The commercial Mexican fishing boats on the otherhand go wherever the fish are....but are usually lit up like the cruise ships are, and so are moving slow and easily avoidable.

I'm having a hard time right now beleiving that Aegean was struck & totalled out by anything other than a commercial freighter/tanker. I was giving prior thought to someone's earlier post about a possible 'boat engaged in illegal activity', but the more I thought about that scenario the more I think that any such boat would be doing just one of two things-----smuggling pot, or smuggling people. But since in the past those two endeavors have been performed almost always by pangas (an incredibly stout boat, though usually no more than 24' at the most, and usually carrying 150 Yammies), I would believe that a collision twixt a Hunter and a panga (moving at 25 knots) would result in major damage to both vessels....and creating a debris field containing stuff from both boats. So I'm going with stalled/impeded sailboat vs. freighter/tanker at three quarter throttle.


Regardless, thoughts with the families and friends of the sailors. King Harbor is a very small place, tight knit place. And it's where I grew up. Sad, sad fuking month for Californians.....



Yeah. Might have been two boats sunk, but then there would probably be more bodies.


Had a scare the one time I did that race. Thought the tanker wasn't heading all that close at all, thought it was headed towards some other boats though. The it hung a left to miss them....and suddenly, we wuz looking at red AND green. Engine started right up, so no big deal.

Always keep the flare gun handy when those babies are close, and shine a flashlight on the mainsail. Nice big glow.


Yup. I sailed our 52 footer from Two Harbors to Marina La Salina alone a few years back. Left Catalina around 1000 and arrived La Salina at around 1400 the next day. Not my idea of fun, especially off Dago late at night, with the cruise ships, the freighters, a few fishing boats....and all the time listening to our military play war games with the Canadians.... somewhere way out in the inky darkness. Fifteen minute egg timer watches tween 0400 and dawn suck. And the passing the barren-ass west side of the Coronados on a cold dawn with overcast skys and an eight foot swell busting up the rocks is not really idylic cruising either. Got there in one piece (obviously) but my nightvvision/depth perception has always sucked, and dodging shit at midnight all by your lonesome just really blows. Much more enjoyable 80 miles out.....

#130 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:21 AM


Another article published here and the first I've found that quoted one of the people on the scene after the accident: http://www.washingto...bnoT_story.html


Jobson's comments in that article are ridiculous.


Huh?

What is it about them that you find ridiculous?

#131 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:24 AM


... Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.


You really don't have a clue PH. If you've stopped slumming for jail-house lawyers like JTR, then just STFU.


Are you saying that there won't be any lawsuits filed? Against NOSA?

#132 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:29 AM



... Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.


You really don't have a clue PH. If you've stopped slumming for jail-house lawyers like JTR, then just STFU.


Are you saying that there won't be any lawsuits filed? Against NOSA?



And wtf did NOSA do? Direct a foreign flagged vessel to run down an American vessel in Mexican waters? Jfc D/R, I love ya and all ..... but I really think your pushing the limits of reality stretchiness here....

#133 cap10ed

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:29 AM

I love that last line. Always keeps flare gun handy (while a tanker approaches you.) Nice big glow. No kidding!!! Shit you can't use a cell phone on the deck of a tanker lest you set some shit off



What about the poorly lit fishing boats out of Tijuana area.? Is that a possibility? I've done a handful of these races & seen a few.



There's no marina in TJ, and the nearest fishing 'village' will be south of Rosarito and/or Popotla(20 road miles south), where they launch fishing pangas off the beach. And unless something got newly built in the past couple of years, the first 'real' marina south of the border is Marina La Salina, a good thirty five/forty road miles from TJ---but it's mostly a pleasure craft marina, and mostly American boats. Then ten miles south of that is Salsipuedes, a wide bay (with some fuktastic surfing) where a lot of those 200' round floating tuna corrals are moored/anchored. Ten more road miles south and you're in Ensy. Regardless, the only fishing boats I've seen over the years off Tijuana Sloughs or the bullring have been smaller US fishing boats. But the Coronados get a lot of fishing pressure from both the gringo boats, and the Ensenada sport fishers/3/4 day boats, depending on the season (yellowtail, white sea bass, yellowfin tuna & sometime albacore), but the Mexican fleet out of Ensy the majority of the time go straight out and hit the reefs off Punta Banda. The commercial Mexican fishing boats on the otherhand go wherever the fish are....but are usually lit up like the cruise ships are, and so are moving slow and easily avoidable.

I'm having a hard time right now beleiving that Aegean was struck & totalled out by anything other than a commercial freighter/tanker. I was giving prior thought to someone's earlier post about a possible 'boat engaged in illegal activity', but the more I thought about that scenario the more I think that any such boat would be doing just one of two things-----smuggling pot, or smuggling people. But since in the past those two endeavors have been performed almost always by pangas (an incredibly stout boat, though usually no more than 24' at the most, and usually carrying 150 Yammies), I would believe that a collision twixt a Hunter and a panga (moving at 25 knots) would result in major damage to both vessels....and creating a debris field containing stuff from both boats. So I'm going with stalled/impeded sailboat vs. freighter/tanker at three quarter throttle.


Regardless, thoughts with the families and friends of the sailors. King Harbor is a very small place, tight knit place. And it's where I grew up. Sad, sad fuking month for Californians.....



Yeah. Might have been two boats sunk, but then there would probably be more bodies.


Had a scare the one time I did that race. Thought the tanker wasn't heading all that close at all, thought it was headed towards some other boats though. The it hung a left to miss them....and suddenly, we wuz looking at red AND green. Engine started right up, so no big deal.

Always keep the flare gun handy when those babies are close, and shine a flashlight on the mainsail. Nice big glow.



#134 jrw1621

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:30 AM

Just read a comment on one of the online publications regarding the Aegean skipper, Theo Mavromatis: His sister said the Coast Guard has called off the search for him.

Is there a time limit for the Coast Guard in searching for bodies?


Coast Guard suspends search for missing sailor in race

http://www.wapt.com/news/national/Coast-Guard-suspends-search-for-missing-sailor-in-race/-/9157010/12195630/-/i0glo3z/-/

#135 Asymptote

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:35 AM



It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....


Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?



NOSA has zero assets. Nothing for the organization to worry about. But the Officers and Directors, that's another story. Obviously who or whatever ran over this boat will be the primary target.

Oh....and sponsors. They will all be named too. Look at that list, and know that there are more than a couple of lawyers in the State of California just salivating like rabid dogs to go after the likes of Toyota, Mt. Gay, North Sails....and oh yeah, the clubs as sponsors too. Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.


I can only hope that this was written in a sarcastic tone of voice. I fear not, though, based on previous posts. What possible liability can be devolve onto an organization running a race for the 65th time on a course that has at least three other equivalent races each year, or to the sponsors of that race, from a collision at sea? With hundreds of similar races worldwide? No clearer case of "the sky is falling" has been posted here. Please get a grip.

What I do know, from my experience just last night on an overnight race on Puget Sound, is that a very large container ship can pass by absolutely silently less than a mile away. Just a few minutes after the ship passed us, it blew five warning blasts at boats behind us. We were keeping watch, they were obviously keeping watch, but still it was eerie. Even more so reading this thread today.

Invisiblity on radar of sailboats is an issue that could be addressed with real technological improvements. More than once, I've heard that my boat was providing no signal reflection at all - fiberglass hull, skinny aluminum rig, partially synthetic standing rigging. I've taken that knowledge somewhat casually, planning on good watch-keeping to keep out of harms way. No longer. But, it is, in fact, somewhat difficult to mount an effective radar reflector on most modern race boats that both functions properly and does not cause damage to sails and rigging. As I understand it, the "sail-friendly" cylindrical ones may not provide a good signal when heeled, while the round or tetrahedron interlocking plates can shred a sail when lashed inside the diagonals or upper shrouds and certainly cant be hung off adjustable backstays or runners without causing damage. There is clearly room for improvement.

My deepest condolences to all the families. The horror of these and the Farallones tragic deaths are shocking to all.

#136 narecet

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:36 AM




... Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.


You really don't have a clue PH. If you've stopped slumming for jail-house lawyers like JTR, then just STFU.


Are you saying that there won't be any lawsuits filed? Against NOSA?



And wtf did NOSA do? Direct a foreign flagged vessel to run down an American vessel in Mexican waters? Jfc D/R, I love ya and all ..... but I really think your pushing the limits of reality stretchiness here....


Unfortunately, very possibly not: there are very many lawyers who don't operate on the basis of whether a suit truly has merit, but on whether they think they have a good chance of extracting a settlement.

And a settlement can often be extracted even from cases with scant merit, simply because defending is so extremely expensive. Why not cut the lawyah a check for $50K or $100K rather than spend hundreds of thousands defending yourself.

When insured, often there's no choice: the insurance company will do it for you.

Yes Virginia, there are ambulance chasers. And no, it is not easy to get suits dismissed in most cases. "Common sense" arguments such as presented here wouldn't have a chance of winning dismissal. That's not how the legal system works.

#137 nroose

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:39 AM



Another article published here and the first I've found that quoted one of the people on the scene after the accident: http://www.washingto...bnoT_story.html


Jobson's comments in that article are ridiculous.


Huh?

What is it about them that you find ridiculous?

Here are Jobson's words:

Gary Jobson, president of the U.S. Sailing Association, said there have been too many accidents during races in the past year, and that the association is working to make the sport safer.

Im horrified. Ive done a lot of sailboat racing and Ive hit logs in the water, and Ive seen a man go overboard, but this takes the whole thing to a new level, Jobson said. We need to take a step back and take a deep breath with what were doing. Something is going wrong here.

Jobson said U.S. Sailing will appoint an independent panel to investigate the Ensenada incident, as it has done in the Farallon Islands accident.

Seems to me that what he said is fine. Sure, these two recent incidents are not related, and we can say everyone who goes out there takes the risks and knows it, but when people start dying, it is prudent to take a step back and think. At the very least, for the President of US Sailing, it is a clear indication that he and the organization take safety seriously, and it is definitely not ridiculous to be taken aback by the recent tragic losses. If we can learn from these incidents and prevent accidents in the future, hopefully without restricting an activity we love, then that will be a good outcome.

#138 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:41 AM




... Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.


You really don't have a clue PH. If you've stopped slumming for jail-house lawyers like JTR, then just STFU.


Are you saying that there won't be any lawsuits filed? Against NOSA?



And wtf did NOSA do? Direct a foreign flagged vessel to run down an American vessel in Mexican waters? Jfc D/R, I love ya and all ..... but I really think your pushing the limits of reality stretchiness here....


Well, not sure we ought to use this thread for this, but the paintiff's bar could take a position that NOSA deliberatly induced novices (including crew, as in deck watches at night) to attend the event (dumbed the race down to increase revenue), asserted no experience required, provided no training, offered no training, and so on.

As you know, I am a total advocate of personal responsibilty a la Aynd Rand, so I'm just presenting a hypothetical as to how an avaricious (sp?) lawyer might approach this. Contrast this event with the qualifications necessary for a JO in the Navy to get qualified as an OOD for independent steaming - that is, be on the bridge and in sole command of the vessel.

#139 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:44 AM

...They will all be named too.... lawyers in the State of California just salivating ....


Nice job asshat.

Every race I've ever signed up for had an insurance requirement, and a clause holding the organisers/host club/sponsors harmless.
Unless the organisers did something that specifically put the participants in harms way, they won't be targets.

But you're probably right about salivating lawyers.

#140 Travieso

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:45 AM

I can't wait for this month to be done. Thoughts and condolences to those affected.

#141 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:46 AM

Ok, let's stop this legalese ambulance chasing shit for awhile, s'kay? I understand where you're going with it....but the rest of the audience here probably doesn't wanna hear it tonite.....

#142 narecet

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:47 AM

Agreed, it is quite unnecessary. The general problem is well-known, there's nothing new, the facts wouldn't make much difference, and it's totally irrelevant to the real issues facing people right now.

#143 Wash

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:59 AM

An absolute tragedy-- So sad-

#144 More Faster

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:59 AM

The following is complete speculation and conjecture based on experience.

Experience: We sail/race across Lake Superior, often up/down the shipping lanes. On more than one occasion, while the fleet is bobbing with triple zeros in pea soup fog 30-50 miles from shore, we've had freighters come through. You can feel them chugging through the water before you can hear them, and then you start to hear them. When they keep getting louder and louder, it's terrifying. They are surprisingly sneaky for as large as they are. Even while communicating over the VHF, it is possible for a large freighter tracking multiple contacts to confuse who they are talking to. Our biggest fear is that an ore boat(1000 footer) will, even in good conditions at night, be speaking with us, and turn to avoid who they can see. If that boat is a mile away, they could easily alter course into us, while talking to us. If the focus of a look-out is on the boat ahead, he/she may not see the boat along side.

Speculation:
I'm not familiar with those aboard the H37 in this incident. With only four aboard, at night, in light air, it's likely that 1-2 were below, if not 3. An person unfamiliar with the helm may not been able to start the engine even if they saw that collision was immanent. An inexperienced person may have misjudged the course/speed of a freighter, and could easily assume that the freighter saw them. Even with lights on, 6-8ft swell can make a boat disappear, both visually and on some radars. If the freighter had multiple nearby contacts, they may have been focused on the one they could see and were talking to, and may have inadvertently run over a 37fter without ever seeing, hearing, or feeling them.

Preventative measures:
In the shipping lanes, at night, or in heavy fog, we hang a deflector, and run our radar actively. We have flares in the driver's sheet bag, and keep the key in the ignition for quick starting. EVERY driver is trained to start the engine and put it into gear by feel(without light). We hail early and often. When we hail, we are VERY precise with reporting our position, heading, and velocity. We also clarify that we are part of a race, and that there are MANY other boats around us. Especially when short handed, we run the radar regularly, even though it sucks a ton of power and requires us to run the engine more frequently.

My condolences to all those connected with both tragedies. This sport, while fun, is dangerous. Stay safe.

#145 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:07 AM

Ok, let's stop this legalese ambulance chasing shit for awhile, s'kay? I understand where you're going with it....but the rest of the audience here probably doesn't wanna hear it tonite.....


Of course.

#146 tweaker

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:40 AM

When I first heard about this ship track I thought it might be the cause, but after seeing it no way, this track is 30 miles outside of what course any race boat would take.
"
My heart goes out to the families and friends of those lost on the "Aegean" . It seems the sport we love is getting dangerous to participate in. I have done over 20 of these races, but haven't done it for the last 3 years. I have been racing on a boat that just doesn't want to do it.

I just helped deliver "Condor" an Andrews 70 back from Cabo and saw a UFO off lower Baja. I believe it was an unmaned aireal surveillance craft. When we arrived at SD we were escorted into San Diego by the USCG and searched by BPC and a drug sniffing dog was brought on board by the USGC. On almost every delivery I've made north from
San Diego we have been shadowed by the US military. My point is this, this section of the coast is one of the most watched and monitered of any ocean anywhere. We have Border Protection Customs, US Navy, Navy Seals and USCG all in a heavy presence. I just hope it wasn't another accident like what happened on forth of July in SD bay with the USCG. Someone knows what happened out there. If it was caused by a ship the truth should come to light, weather it might have been caused by a military vessel, a cruise ship or a cargo vessel, etc.

From a racers standpoint if the Aegean was hit by a vessel we could all learn from possible mistakes made by the crew. Such as: Did they try to hail the ship on VHF?, Did they try to make their vessel more visible? i.e. shine a spot light at the approaching ship, or shoot a flare? etc. Why didn't they start their motor and try to moneurver out of harms way? A hunter 36 has an inboard diesel engine. I know from skippering my own boat you get a mind set of we are racing and you don't want to turn on the motor, or you think don't about calling the ship because we just don't do it often or lack of prerace emergency thinking or preperation. Here is a real life sobering situation as an example for us: what will we do if we are confronted by a large ship bearing down on us at night when there is very little wind in our next race?




I have not been to this site given above before but have fumbled through it a little there is a vessel named the CMA CGM Rose that seems to have left Long Beach, headed due south along the coast till it got to the Mx boarder at about 1:30 am then went hard to starboard changing course about 45 degrees to the west. It seems to have remained on this course and is headed to Auckland at 17kts.

I have no idea if this is related but thought that maybe some with more knowledge of the website could expand on this.


http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?mmsi=636091210
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=636091210&zoom=10&olddate=lastknown (map)

Posted Image



#147 sleddog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:43 AM

Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.

OCEAN ARIADNE was last tanker moored offshore PEMEX Terminal, Rosarito Beach through Friday. Debris field was reported by media as approx. 8 miles west of Rosarito, three miles south of South Coronado, where OA likely transited, her AIS possibly non-operative.

If I were CG, I would want to meet this ship before she arrives at March Point Terminal, Anacortes, WA, ETA 1300 PDST May 1. Just sayin'

#148 helmtothelee

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:48 AM

Everyone keeps talking about a racing sailboat and assuming this boat was sailing. This boat was in the cruising class that allows you to motor at night. I am about to totally speculate here, but this boat was likely under motor power (I was on this race and know that if I could have turned on the motor and motored at 6 knots instead of flogging in 2-4 knots of wind and 1-3 knots of boat speed I would have) so the rules of the road between sail boat and boat under power change. This would be a boat under power against boat under power situation.

#149 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:51 AM

Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.

OCEAN ARIADNE was last tanker moored offshore PEMEX Terminal, Rosarito Beach through Friday. Debris field was reported by media as approx. 8 miles west of Rosarito, three miles south of South Coronado, where OA likely transited, her AIS possibly non-operative.

If I were CG, I would want to meet this ship before she arrives at March Point Terminal, Anacortes, WA, ETA 1300 PDST May 1. Just sayin'



Ouch, this one could leave a mark....

#150 axolotl

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 02:52 AM

Was in the area circa 1:30am Saturday. Light winds, 1-4 knots boat speed. Visibility good. Kinda bouncy swell and wave combo but not debilitating. Went further outside the Coronados than I've been in fifteen years due to predictions that pressure would be better the further outside you go. Saw several commercial and military vessels steaming at cruise speed; we saw nothing of the tragedy.

1. Been racing in So. Cal. for twenty years and there is a *lot* of big ship traffic out there, usually in plotted shipping lanes.

2. Have had a few close calls; it's weird at night when you're doing 2 and the freigher(?) is doing fifteen, especially if they're doing a course or speed change. And we have had good watches, thought we were in maximum evasive mode, and still ended up too close.

3. It's not the military, they're on high alert whenever they're steaming (Yea, I know about the Hawaii submarine-fishing boat incident.)

4. The VA crew reported a Osterized debris field. It must be the boat got sucked into the props of a large freighter; not a panga, sport fisher or local coaster; or got blowed up by a propane leak or such.

This is a statistical fluke, there were 200+ boats this year, and up to 600 in years past; let us pray the powers that be don't curtail the N2E tradition because of this one tragedy.

#151 tls

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:00 AM

[

Please stop being so naive Woody. People with families are dead. Lawyers look for opportunities to make money. It's really simple to understand for clear thinking people.




Since your are such a clear thinking person, Pete, what court has jurisdiction over this accident? What are the rules of evidence in that court? What are the allowable judgments? This is very simple to understand for clear thinking people like yourself, so perhaps you can explain to everyone else.

Look, I like lawyer jokes/insults as much as the next guy, but you really are ignorant of the law here. It is factually inaccurate to suggest that everyone who has touched the race has actual, actionable liability in this accident. First, this will be covered under maritime law which simply does not allow any of the sort of large judgment you suppose, and it has a very rational system for attribution of liability. Second, even if this happened on an inland lake (rather than international waters) these deep pocket sponsors have no liability unless they could be linked to the the cause of the accident or the size of the damage. Even lawyers who like to make money don't usually want to make themselves looks stupid by naming a bunch of defendants who have no liability under the law for the accident.

#152 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:07 AM

Everyone keeps talking about a racing sailboat and assuming this boat was sailing. This boat was in the cruising class that allows you to motor at night. I am about to totally speculate here, but this boat was likely under motor power (I was on this race and know that if I could have turned on the motor and motored at 6 knots instead of flogging in 2-4 knots of wind and 1-3 knots of boat speed I would have) so the rules of the road between sail boat and boat under power change. This would be a boat under power against boat under power situation.


accepting what you have said & still on topic

from what I have researched a boat under power is NOT allowed to run the same light configuration as a boat under sail = Power boats less visibility allowed

Not speculating ANYTHING - but from what I understand a sail boat under power may Not use a masthead Combo or even an all-around White light (I could be full of Shife on that ??)

I am soooo wondering just WTF Happened in this case, I can't stand it

"Does NOT mean I'm ripe nor ever open for Peter-H BS" (starting to get the idea where the nick-name came form guessing it is one)

#153 NoStrings

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:09 AM




Three questions for PM:

1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH UNKNOWINGLY GO INTO THE PATH OF A LARGE VESSEL AT NIGHT?

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH GET ON THE RADIO WHEN THE LARGER VESSEL WAS SPOTTED?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"? WOULD AN INVESTIGATION INTO AN INCIDENT REGARDING A SHIP AND A SAILBOAT AT NIGHT CONCLUDE THAT THERE WAS A PROPER WATCH KEPT ON BOTH VESSELS?

I am sure that at least one of the vessels involved was aware of the collision. UNFORTUNATELY, YES, THE ONE THAT DIDN'T MAKE IT WAS DEFINITELY AWARE OF THE COLLISION


Balancing questions embedded above.

Let's not jump to any conclusions. The investigation is still under way and I say again, responsibility for keeping watch belongs on both boats. Always.


Are you aware of how idiotic you appear? Writing over, and altering my questions with your all cap drivel is inexcusable. I was not addressing this to you.

I will make the assumption that the sailboat was not endangering the ship, by it's actions.

The ship's crew however, will be shown to have reckless disregard for the lives of the lost crew of the sailboat.

My condolence to the families, and friends, of the lost crew of Aegean.


To be clear, I did not alter or overwrite your questions, I merely added balancing questions to round out the investigative reasoning, and used caps to differentiate my inputs from yours.

Let's consider your questions, as stand-alones, then, shall we?
1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night?
Um... let me think ... trick question, I'm sure ... uh ... Yes, Sir, I believe a ship with a proper watch would (and has) unknowingly run down a sailboat at night. In 2008 there was a small sailing vessel run down/over by a commercial vessel off the UK coast. Same questions. I wish I could find the investigative report - I pored over it because I was aghast that no one stopped to render assistance, that it even happened .. and this was on a delivery, not a race, so the decision to turn on the engine wasn't a big dilemma. I'll look for the report. I hope I PDF'd it.

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance?
Unless the ship with proper watch was engaged in illegal activity (an unheard-of occurrence on the west coast), it would indeed stop to render assistance to a boat that it had knowingly hit, with its proper watch in place. No mariner knowingly strands another mariner ... or was this a trick question?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"?
The answer to this question would depend upon the findings of the investigation, and I for one am content to wait for the results of the investigation, having read the report I referred to in Q1, which indeed found the larger vessel did maintain proper watch. It was extremely informative as to the "blind spots" created by the angle from the bridge to the water.


I'm ok with being labelled or appearing an idiot for asking too many questions, rather than asking too few, jhc.


Next time try using a different color. All CAPS is obnoxious.

#154 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:15 AM


[

Please stop being so naive Woody. People with families are dead. Lawyers look for opportunities to make money. It's really simple to understand for clear thinking people.




Since your are such a clear thinking person, Pete, what court has jurisdiction over this accident? What are the rules of evidence in that court? What are the allowable judgments? This is very simple to understand for clear thinking people like yourself, so perhaps you can explain to everyone else.

Look, I like lawyer jokes/insults as much as the next guy, but you really are ignorant of the law here. It is factually inaccurate to suggest that everyone who has touched the race has actual, actionable liability in this accident. First, this will be covered under maritime law which simply does not allow any of the sort of large judgment you suppose, and it has a very rational system for attribution of liability. Second, even if this happened on an inland lake (rather than international waters) these deep pocket sponsors have no liability unless they could be linked to the the cause of the accident or the size of the damage. Even lawyers who like to make money don't usually want to make themselves looks stupid by naming a bunch of defendants who have no liability under the law for the accident.


Is it but only 1 person that doesn't understand that the world is not as STUPID

as that same 1 person thinks those reading their drivel (less the sock puppets) actually are ??? (YES Posted ImagePosted Image)

#155 nzlboy

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:29 AM

Maybe we should wait for some facts and stop getting pissed at each other, making assumptions and stupid statements. Then you can have an argument.
Cheers
Aaron

#156 WhiteLightnin'

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:30 AM

Might have to take a close look when she arrives. Very sad circumstances. Condolences to the families and friends of those lost.

WL

Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.

OCEAN ARIADNE was last tanker moored offshore PEMEX Terminal, Rosarito Beach through Friday. Debris field was reported by media as approx. 8 miles west of Rosarito, three miles south of South Coronado, where OA likely transited, her AIS possibly non-operative.

If I were CG, I would want to meet this ship before she arrives at March Point Terminal, Anacortes, WA, ETA 1300 PDST May 1. Just sayin'



#157 tls

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:30 AM

[
Are you saying that there won't be any lawsuits filed? Against NOSA?


Well, no one can promise that stupid suits won't be filed, but you can promise that there won't be a judgment for the plaintiff. What, exactly, would be the grounds of the suit? Are you assuming that Orange County small claims court has jurisdiction over events in international waters? You realize that Admiralty law explicitly indemnified all parties that are not directly involved in the cause of the collision. Can you outline a basis for a lawsuit against NOSA that could be heard in state court?

#158 BalticBandit

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:33 AM




It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....


Tempting, but, in view of the circumstances, best not to be too aggressive. No one wants to see outcomes like this one.

I wonder if NOSA has D & O insurance?



NOSA has zero assets. Nothing for the organization to worry about. But the Officers and Directors, that's another story. Obviously who or whatever ran over this boat will be the primary target.

Oh....and sponsors. They will all be named too. Look at that list, and know that there are more than a couple of lawyers in the State of California just salivating like rabid dogs to go after the likes of Toyota, Mt. Gay, North Sails....and oh yeah, the clubs as sponsors too. Any lawyer worth his salt will love to go after all the sponsors. Even SA is listed as a sponsor.


I can only hope that this was written in a sarcastic tone of voice. I fear not, though, based on previous posts. What possible liability can be devolve onto an organization running a race for the 65th time on a course that has at least three other equivalent races each year, or to the sponsors of that race, from a collision at sea? With hundreds of similar races worldwide? No clearer case of "the sky is falling" has been posted here. Please get a grip.

What I do know, from my experience just last night on an overnight race on Puget Sound, is that a very large container ship can pass by absolutely silently less than a mile away. Just a few minutes after the ship passed us, it blew five warning blasts at boats behind us. We were keeping watch, they were obviously keeping watch, but still it was eerie. Even more so reading this thread today.

Invisiblity on radar of sailboats is an issue that could be addressed with real technological improvements. More than once, I've heard that my boat was providing no signal reflection at all - fiberglass hull, skinny aluminum rig, partially synthetic standing rigging. I've taken that knowledge somewhat casually, planning on good watch-keeping to keep out of harms way. No longer. But, it is, in fact, somewhat difficult to mount an effective radar reflector on most modern race boats that both functions properly and does not cause damage to sails and rigging. As I understand it, the "sail-friendly" cylindrical ones may not provide a good signal when heeled, while the round or tetrahedron interlocking plates can shred a sail when lashed inside the diagonals or upper shrouds and certainly cant be hung off adjustable backstays or runners without causing damage. There is clearly room for improvement.

My deepest condolences to all the families. The horror of these and the Farallones tragic deaths are shocking to all.


The boat I've done the Swiftsure Bank Race in a couple of times uses AIS and turns it on during the race. And in reading the "good rescue" story from the Bass Straits that followed shortly after the Farallones loss, AIS was used by the USCG to coordinate getting to the rescuing sailboat.

Part of the issue though is that while they are not supposed to do this, I've heard more than one story of sailboats in fairly busy shipping lanes being almost run down by a ship with apparently no one on the bridge since VHF and a spotlight elicited no response. Makes one wonder if that might have been a factor here. I wonder if USCG already has an AIS track of a suspect vessel.

#159 tls

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:37 AM

Yes Virginia, there are ambulance chasers. And no, it is not easy to get suits dismissed in most cases. "Common sense" arguments such as presented here wouldn't have a chance of winning dismissal. That's not how the legal system works.


It is pretty easy to get suits dismissed when they are filed in a court without jurisdiction. That is how the legal system works. There are not too many "ambulance chasers" working under Admiralty Law, because those laws prohibit almost all large judgments.

#160 narecet

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:44 AM

As there's been a request, which I think is respectful, to table this line of discussion, I will reply by PM.

#161 VwaP

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 03:56 AM




What about the poorly lit fishing boats out of Tijuana area.? Is that a possibility? I've done a handful of these races & seen a few.



There's no marina in TJ, and the nearest fishing 'village' will be south of Rosarito and/or Popotla(20 road miles south), where they launch fishing pangas off the beach. And unless something got newly built in the past couple of years, the first 'real' marina south of the border is Marina La Salina, a good thirty five/forty road miles from TJ---but it's mostly a pleasure craft marina, and mostly American boats. Then ten miles south of that is Salsipuedes, a wide bay (with some fuktastic surfing) where a lot of those 200' round floating tuna corrals are moored/anchored. Ten more road miles south and you're in Ensy. Regardless, the only fishing boats I've seen over the years off Tijuana Sloughs or the bullring have been smaller US fishing boats. But the Coronados get a lot of fishing pressure from both the gringo boats, and the Ensenada sport fishers/3/4 day boats, depending on the season (yellowtail, white sea bass, yellowfin tuna & sometime albacore), but the Mexican fleet out of Ensy the majority of the time go straight out and hit the reefs off Punta Banda. The commercial Mexican fishing boats on the otherhand go wherever the fish are....but are usually lit up like the cruise ships are, and so are moving slow and easily avoidable.

I'm having a hard time right now beleiving that Aegean was struck & totalled out by anything other than a commercial freighter/tanker. I was giving prior thought to someone's earlier post about a possible 'boat engaged in illegal activity', but the more I thought about that scenario the more I think that any such boat would be doing just one of two things-----smuggling pot, or smuggling people. But since in the past those two endeavors have been performed almost always by pangas (an incredibly stout boat, though usually no more than 24' at the most, and usually carrying 150 Yammies), I would believe that a collision twixt a Hunter and a panga (moving at 25 knots) would result in major damage to both vessels....and creating a debris field containing stuff from both boats. So I'm going with stalled/impeded sailboat vs. freighter/tanker at three quarter throttle.


Regardless, thoughts with the families and friends of the sailors. King Harbor is a very small place, tight knit place. And it's where I grew up. Sad, sad fuking month for Californians.....



Yeah. Might have been two boats sunk, but then there would probably be more bodies.


Had a scare the one time I did that race. Thought the tanker wasn't heading all that close at all, thought it was headed towards some other boats though. The it hung a left to miss them....and suddenly, we wuz looking at red AND green. Engine started right up, so no big deal.

Always keep the flare gun handy when those babies are close, and shine a flashlight on the mainsail. Nice big glow.


Yup. I sailed our 52 footer from Two Harbors to Marina La Salina alone a few years back. Left Catalina around 1000 and arrived La Salina at around 1400 the next day. Not my idea of fun, especially off Dago late at night, with the cruise ships, the freighters, a few fishing boats....and all the time listening to our military play war games with the Canadians.... somewhere way out in the inky darkness. Fifteen minute egg timer watches tween 0400 and dawn suck. And the passing the barren-ass west side of the Coronados on a cold dawn with overcast skys and an eight foot swell busting up the rocks is not really idylic cruising either. Got there in one piece (obviously) but my nightvvision/depth perception has always sucked, and dodging shit at midnight all by your lonesome just really blows. Much more enjoyable 80 miles out.....




What a fucking narcissistic piece of crap you are.
Give it a rest.

#162 jimbot

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:56 AM

I would hazard to guess that it was a commercial ship.
Tug with a tow is too slow. Unless everyone on the sailboat was asleep, they would have had plenty of time to avoid, unless they made the stupid mistake of going between tug and tow. The debris would tend to rule out a barge/sailboat collision. A tug also doesn't have 500 feet between the lookout and the bow. If a tug hit someone, they would know it.

When I was in the Navy, the ship I was on had 8 on watch - 2 Officers (OOD, JOOD) and 5 enlisted (helm, lee helm,lookout,QM,messenger, fantail). Things may have changed in 30 years, but they still would have had more personnel on watch than if they were 500 miles out. While it is incredibly difficult to pick out a boats running lights from city lights from 50 feet above the water, a USN ship would more likely to pick out a yacht then your average tanker/container ship.

The Swiftsure race organizers (USCG, Seattle traffic, Race committee) spend a lot of time and effort to ensure that sailors are safe. Hourly broadcasts of traffic allow racers to know what's out there, and the sailors can be prepared for evasive action. Perhaps NOSA should look into what Royal Vic has done, and use something like that. A broadcast hourly, listing AIS information for ships in the area where racers are likely to be, might have reduced the chances of a collision. Requiring AIS on all yachts will just reduce participation.

#163 saltyokie

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 04:56 AM



At night during these races, boats like the one lost may only have one or two knots of boat speed and little ability to take evasive action when they realize the ship is headed for them. During one race with a full moon we could see the dreaded equilateral triangle of lights heading for us. Red over here, green over there and two white in the middle. I was in a Cal 25 and it was clear the ship did not see us. We shone two flashlights on the main and the ship changed course and just missed us. Our boat speed - one knot.



If in the event of what appears to be a potential collision at sea a "prudent mariner" will do whatever they can and use whatever they have available to prevent said collision. Communicating with the other vessel by VHF, spot lights on the sails, or other means may be effective. But if that fails then surely it makes sense to start up the aux. engine and get the heck out of the way. I've more than once been in a sailboat and in a similar situation and had to alter my course by 90 degrees, started the motor and used full throttle to make sure my boat and crew were out of harms way. I would hope everyone else, given the same situation, would do the same.


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


So, it's the middle of night, becalmed on the ocean, in a major traffic lane.....and....wait for it....your engine is down below?

This type of mentality does not belong offshore in a yacht race.


Not too clever? I am speaking of my past. Now I have a 38 footer with a big mother diesel, key in ignition. Now I am ready to start the engine and get out of Dodge at the first sign of trouble. But I spent a lot of years as a balls to the wall ultra lite racer. I was no different from the rest of the fleet then, and a lot of people now. In our culture, you put the outboard on the transom when you dropped out - not before. We always believed that our ultra-lights could sail in a sneeze and get us out of trouble. When the fun meter reads triple zeros and there are steamer lights all over the place, that attitude is pretty risky. I know, I did it for years and would not be surprised if several folks are doing it as we speak. It is not that much different from skippers cutting an island too close to gain a little time. With the passage of time, you gain a little maturity - if you get the chance.

#164 stolpsTDI

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:04 AM

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and friends of those lost. We sailed thorough the debris field, and it has been very sobering, at a minimum.

#165 floating dutchman

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:28 AM

We came on the debris field about 9:45 AM. A boat called Shockwave reported it to the Coast Guard while we were trying to figure out what it was. They were about 1 mile ahead of us. I spoke with a CG officer about 11PM who had been in the race. She'd called Sector SD and fount a little: no report before a debris in water call, CG found 3 bodies and recovered one while 2 more were recovered by private boats (racers?) the debris was scattered about 1 mile across when we got there. We searched pretty hard but nothing except a life jackets, a paddle, foam, bit of oil.

Never heard a distress call and we had 16 on all night.

Thanks for posting that, Sorry but most here a too busy with their own shit-fight to worrie about an account from somone who was accuay there.

#166 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:38 AM

KUSI-NEWS did a Suck Arse job reporting the story

showing the AC-45's sailing in the Bay and showing someone saying the boat was









Ready for it ???











Too Aggressive WTF ???

My comment to their FB page:

OMG ............... the racers were too AGGRESSIVE in 1-2k of wind ??
PLEASE Say you are Not qualified to report on what happened when you have Not a Clue !!!!!!!!!
This is Not a Weather-Prediction, It's a REAL Event that happened - PLEASE do some Research and correct your story :-(

#167 re-psycled

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 05:48 AM

Man, you guys get lost on every topic. Here in Southern California all of our overnight races run almost parallel to the shipping lanes and just because we have done it for 40 years and missed 500 freighters and Cruise Ships it does not mean the next one will miss us.



The simple logic of the debris, the lack of a distress call, an explosion or any smoke make this look like a very large instantaneous event with a very large vessel. How can this happen, we all say, why not turn on the engine and get out of the way, how can the commercial vessel just run down the poor little sailboat?

It is actually very hard to run into a freighter at sea. If you motored at ninety degrees and were ranging perfectly on the bow at full speed the bow wave would most likely deflect you away from the ship and it would pass before you could hit it. It is traveling at 4 or 5 times faster than you are and there is only a small circle in the ocean you can actually make contact with that freighter.

It is however quite easy to be in the wrong place and get run down by a freighter especially when we are ghosting along in no wind. We are all guilty of the circumstances that would result in an accident just like this one.



This boat was in the Cruz class where motoring is legal for any amount of time I think as long as you log it and it is then added to your corrected time at 2 or 3 to 1. The rules are not important but the fact that they were most likely already motoring is. They may have decided to motor for a few hours and set up a watch system with one guy on deck. The others went below to catch a few Zs and would come back up one at a time every hour or so. The guy on watch maybe put in some ear buds and had some nice Itunes music on. He was looking ahead and kept a watch for any boats or trouble on the water just like we all do. The motor is going and the music is playing in his ears. To a pro delivery guy having earplugs would never happen because you can not hear the RPM and sound of the bow wave but to a new guy on his first overnighter it was an awesome night with stars all around.

We all do this when we stand watch and we probably dont do what may have killed them. We keep watch ahead looking from problems and colors, we stand up every 5 to 10 minutes to see the water and scan the horizon. Even when we read a book we look to the distance every page we turn, looking for kelp or a log or whatever.

What we probably dont do enough of is look behind!

We would never deliver a boat traveling in a shipping lane, we would cross it, we would put it 4 miles to port or starboard and parallel it if we had to, but we would never run right down the middle of it.

To me it looks like they may have been motoring and could not hear the big ship coming. It may have come up from the quarter or dead astern and ran them down and they never saw it.

Some will say it was the ship's fault for not avoiding them, but they probably had 50 targets on their 7 mile screen and maybe this boat had a very weak pattern. Even if they tried to avoid they would hit 3 others that were close by so they were just holding course to allow the race vessels to sail unobstructed.

Everything is a guess but we can learn that it is just as important to look back when on watch as well as forward. Your ears are also very important and when the motor is on you need to look around even more because we can not hear potential danger.
LSC and this are terrible things and horrible for the families. This could mark the end of offshore racing in California. Those of us that love the sailing and want it to continue need to learn and try to prevent these events from ever happaning again.




#168 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:18 AM

Holy Shit KFMB news 8 @11-DAGO

ended saying the boat was in a class allowing the use of a motor

& "THAT" using the motor put it further South and if it didn't use a motor would have more North and out of Danger !! WTF ???


are they All on CRACK ???

#169 dogwatch

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:25 AM

I've raced some dozens of times across the English Channel at night, crossing the traffic lanes going into and out of Europe's major container ports. Some comments:

1. There have been at least two incidents local to here in the last 15 years where (non-racing) yachts were run down by ships, in one of which the entire crew was killed. In neither of those incidents was the ship involved ever conclusively identified, despite paint tests etc.

2. When 20,000 tons of steel are heading for you at 15 knots, "whose fault would an accident be" is not the appropriate question to be asking. If there is not much wind, you'd better be prepared to motor out of the way. If you care anything for your safety you've got to assume that ships are not going to avoid you.

3. Sailing instructions here allow you to use the engine for collision avoidance and declare it after the finish. It would not result in DSQ.

4. Unless you've got radar, the only way offshore at night to know conclusively if you are on a closing bearing is to repeatedly take bearings on a hand-bearing compass. Crew on watch have got to have one and know how to use it.

#170 masameet

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:28 AM

What we probably don't do enough of is look behind!


Not sure if this was Aegean's fatal flaw, as one news report said its transom was found, with its name apparently still readable. So if your scenario happened, the transom and boat name would likely have gotten churned in the big boat's prop.

And if the men onboard were Theo Mavromatis's regular crew, as one news report stated, then these guys had done this race before, probably even as the crew in 2009, when Mavromatis won his class. Earlier posts named the crew, but another news source is naming three different and (apparently) younger men: Joseph Stewart, Michael Patton and Kevin Rudolph. This publication also said the current speculation is a merchant ship crossed the path of the Ensenada race, which would support the notion that the Aegean was struck amidship, if not at the bow, which allowed the transom to float fairly intact.

And yes, the cruiser class was allowed to run their engines between 1000 and 0800 while adhering to other restrictions.

#171 SCP

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:28 AM

I've raced some dozens of times across the English Channel at night, crossing the traffic lanes going into and out of Europe's major container ports. Some comments:

1. There have been at least two incidents local to here in the last 15 years where (non-racing) yachts were run down by ships, in one of which the entire crew was killed. In neither of those incidents was the ship involved ever conclusively identified, despite paint tests etc.

2. When 20,000 tons of steel are heading for you at 15 knots, "whose fault would an accident be" is not the appropriate question to be asking. If there is not much wind, you'd better be prepared to motor out of the way. If you care anything for your safety you've got to assume that ships are not going to avoid you.

3. Sailing instructions here allow you to use the engine for collision avoidance and declare it after the finish. It would not result in DSQ.

4. Unless you've got radar, the only way offshore at night to know conclusively if you are on a closing bearing is to repeatedly take bearings on a hand-bearing compass. Crew on watch have got to have one and know how to use it.



#172 SCP

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:30 AM

Thanks for some sanity.

My condolences to the families of those lost.

#173 Lifeonplane

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:31 AM

So how long will it take for the CG to pull all racing permits for So Cal waters and for how long?

LOP

#174 Sailabout

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:27 AM


[

Please stop being so naive Woody. People with families are dead. Lawyers look for opportunities to make money. It's really simple to understand for clear thinking people.




Since your are such a clear thinking person, Pete, what court has jurisdiction over this accident? What are the rules of evidence in that court? What are the allowable judgments? This is very simple to understand for clear thinking people like yourself, so perhaps you can explain to everyone else.

Look, I like lawyer jokes/insults as much as the next guy, but you really are ignorant of the law here. It is factually inaccurate to suggest that everyone who has touched the race has actual, actionable liability in this accident. First, this will be covered under maritime law which simply does not allow any of the sort of large judgment you suppose, and it has a very rational system for attribution of liability. Second, even if this happened on an inland lake (rather than international waters) these deep pocket sponsors have no liability unless they could be linked to the the cause of the accident or the size of the damage. Even lawyers who like to make money don't usually want to make themselves looks stupid by naming a bunch of defendants who have no liability under the law for the accident.

That never seems to bother the legal system in the US and your stupid juries are happy to award rediculous sums and your un qualified judges along for the ride with rules created by your polititians who are all lawyers.
The rest of the world is slowly watching your self created implosion of suing yourself into submission

#175 Sailabout

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:44 AM


I've raced some dozens of times across the English Channel at night, crossing the traffic lanes going into and out of Europe's major container ports. Some comments:

1. There have been at least two incidents local to here in the last 15 years where (non-racing) yachts were run down by ships, in one of which the entire crew was killed. In neither of those incidents was the ship involved ever conclusively identified, despite paint tests etc.

2. When 20,000 tons of steel are heading for you at 15 knots, "whose fault would an accident be" is not the appropriate question to be asking. If there is not much wind, you'd better be prepared to motor out of the way. If you care anything for your safety you've got to assume that ships are not going to avoid you.

3. Sailing instructions here allow you to use the engine for collision avoidance and declare it after the finish. It would not result in DSQ.

4. Unless you've got radar, the only way offshore at night to know conclusively if you are on a closing bearing is to repeatedly take bearings on a hand-bearing compass. Crew on watch have got to have one and know how to use it.


$350 and you have a vhf with ais receive feature.....and the cost of not having that is?
Hand bearing not so good in rain and fog



#176 Joakim

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:48 AM

Speculation:
I'm not familiar with those aboard the H37 in this incident. With only four aboard, at night, in light air, it's likely that 1-2 were below, if not 3.


Why would 4 be only? I have done many 100-170 M races with a crew of 4 and I think it is enough. There are only 1-2 nights and it is enough to have one person sleeping. In a cruising class there maybe only 1 or 2 on deck at night, but most likely the ones with most experience.

#177 Ho'Okele

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:25 AM

I have 23 years in the submarine force, and have spent quite a lot of watches navigating in and out of San Diego and operating in the local opareas, as well as taking submarines in and out of Bangor, WA and many WestPac ports. Here are a couple of observations that will shed absolutely no light on what happened, but may give you some food for thought:

- If you don't make noise, we can't hear you. If we can't hear you, we can't track you. If we can't track you, we will not know you're there on the ascent to periscope depth, particularly at night. I can't say what we can or can't hear (and with the vagaries of sound propagation through varied water, neither could a sonarman), but when running a depth sounder or your diesel will at least put some sound in the water and give you a chance to be heard. Obviously you need to know you're in the submarine opareas, they're marked on the charts. (San Diego, Bangor, WA, Hawaii, Guam, King's Bay, GA, Norfolk VA, Groton, CT are our areas.)

- I hate hailing on VHF, esp. in WestPac. I once had an encounter south of Tokyo Wan with a 16+ KT RORO where I hailed, got a garbled "Janglish" response and then got someone who could speak English about 12 minutes and 12KYDS of closure later. If you have AIS, you'll at least have the guy's name rather than calling up "BIG MERCHANT GUY ABOUT TO RUN ME OVER" If you have a radio with MMSI, you can punch in his MMSI number from AIS, and the radio will initiate a direct call electronically and then put you both on the same channel when he hits ACCEPT.

- I'm pretty sure based on STCW 95, many ships operate with one bridge watchstander during the day and they're supposed to station a dedicated lookout from dusk to dawn. I don't know of anyone checking to make sure they're complying with it, so human nature being what it is, those standards may slip in an effort to save money/time/etc. I think these rules are applied after the fact if something happens.

- People have a hard time seeing a 360 foot or 560 foot submarine with full lights, with a huge steel sail (radar target), and an amber flashing all-round submarine ID beacon. Your yacht has no chance of being seen at night by any but the top 10% of merchants.

- The San Diego/TJ coast is ridiculously lit, I hate trying to pick out contacts at night, and the one that's the hardest to see is the one with zero bearing rate that's going to hit you.

I think the bottom line is that you must assume that no one can see you and act accordingly until proven otherwise, and get an AIS if your'e going offshore.

My condolences go out to all involved in this as well as the Low Speed Chase folks.




#178 prof_mariner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:59 AM

- I'm pretty sure based on STCW 95, many ships operate with one bridge watchstander during the day and they're supposed to station a dedicated lookout from dusk to dawn.



Just to clarify this point, according to COLREGS every vessel while underway must have a lookout on watch who holds no other responsibilities, so the "minimum" number of personnel on watch on the bridge is supposed to be 2 (typically one OICNW and one AB/OS), at least that's what the manning document on every vessel I've ever served on required. That way the mate on watch can perform his other obligations (plotting a fix, update the log, checking the radar, etc.) while the AB keeps a proper lookout. Time of day has nothing to do with it.


#179 Bowgirl

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:31 AM

Next time try using a different color. All CAPS is obnoxious.

Point taken.
Thanks.

#180 prof_mariner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:53 AM

We still don't know exactly what happened to cause this accident but I just wanted to comment on a few suggestions people have made regarding how to contact or notify a passing ship of your position and intentions. As a licensed ship driver I thought I'd pass along a few thoughts on the subject. I'm not the only ship driver here so I'd also be interested in hearing their comments as well:

- Hail by VHF - If you hail my ship while I'm on watch I will respond. I can't speak for any other watch officer out there, but it's my experience that if a ship knows you're trying to hail them they will typically respond. The problem is sometimes in heavy ship traffic we may not know who you're trying to hail. Keep in mind that VHF may have a range of 25 miles or more so just hailing "big ship on my starboard bow" doesn't really tell me anything and could go ignored. As others have noted, AIS could probably help in that case. Also, if I don't see you on my radar (likely) be ready to tell me where you are ("off your port bow about 6 miles") so I know where to look for you. Also give me your course and speed because if I don't see you on my radar I won't be able to calculate your CPA. Don't be afraid to keep on hailing me, I may be busy trying to spot you with the binoculars, but if I suspect it's me you're hailing I will definitely reply.

- Radar reflectors - I use them on my sailboats but don't have any real proof they actually help.

- Use your spot light to light up your sails - I've used this on my sailboat and have been on the bridge when a boat did this and it sometimes helps. I would shine my spot light on my sails after establishing contact via VHF to help the watch officer see me. I would -not- recommend you beam your spot light towards the bridge of the ship except in a dire emergency. If you ruin my night vision that certainly won't help me see you.

- Running lights - Running lights on pleasure craft are woefully wimpy and barely visibile from the bridge of a ship even in perfect conditions. Add the city lights of San Diego to the background and you're completely invisible. On my next boat I will upgrade all my nav lights to the biggest/brightest I can safely mount.

- White flares - I've never seen anyone actually use one but that's what they're there for. Keeping one in the cockpit ready to use at night sounds like a good idea to me.

- DSC - DSC capable VHF radios have a "distress" button that, if activated, lights off a very loud audible alarm on any GMDSS capable ship's bridge within radio range. You could really piss off a lot of ship drivers and get yourself in trouble if you use this unnecessarily, -but- in the event of a -real- emergency it will definitely get the bridge personnel's attention.

#181 us7070

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:14 AM

With AIS receivers available now for under $150, everyone who does this kind of sailing should have one.

a transponder would be better, but the receiver by itself adds a good measure of safety.

Ideally, it should be visible from the helm.

It will be interesting to learn whether this boat had one.

#182 ChristianSch

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:30 AM

We still don't know exactly what happened to cause this accident but I just wanted to comment on a few suggestions people have made regarding how to contact or notify a passing ship of your position and intentions. As a licensed ship driver I thought I'd pass along a few thoughts on the subject. I'm not the only ship driver here so I'd also be interested in hearing their comments as well:

- Hail by VHF - If you hail my ship while I'm on watch I will respond. I can't speak for any other watch officer out there, but it's my experience that if a ship knows you're trying to hail them they will typically respond. The problem is sometimes in heavy ship traffic we may not know who you're trying to hail. Keep in mind that VHF may have a range of 25 miles or more so just hailing "big ship on my starboard bow" doesn't really tell me anything and could go ignored. As others have noted, AIS could probably help in that case. Also, if I don't see you on my radar (likely) be ready to tell me where you are ("off your port bow about 6 miles") so I know where to look for you. Also give me your course and speed because if I don't see you on my radar I won't be able to calculate your CPA. Don't be afraid to keep on hailing me, I may be busy trying to spot you with the binoculars, but if I suspect it's me you're hailing I will definitely reply.

- Radar reflectors - I use them on my sailboats but don't have any real proof they actually help.

- Use your spot light to light up your sails - I've used this on my sailboat and have been on the bridge when a boat did this and it sometimes helps. I would shine my spot light on my sails after establishing contact via VHF to help the watch officer see me. I would -not- recommend you beam your spot light towards the bridge of the ship except in a dire emergency. If you ruin my night vision that certainly won't help me see you.

- Running lights - Running lights on pleasure craft are woefully wimpy and barely visibile from the bridge of a ship even in perfect conditions. Add the city lights of San Diego to the background and you're completely invisible. On my next boat I will upgrade all my nav lights to the biggest/brightest I can safely mount.

- White flares - I've never seen anyone actually use one but that's what they're there for. Keeping one in the cockpit ready to use at night sounds like a good idea to me.

- DSC - DSC capable VHF radios have a "distress" button that, if activated, lights off a very loud audible alarm on any GMDSS capable ship's bridge within radio range. You could really piss off a lot of ship drivers and get yourself in trouble if you use this unnecessarily, -but- in the event of a -real- emergency it will definitely get the bridge personnel's attention.


VHF would probably anyone's first choice together with shining lights into sails.

Is channel 13 preferred over ch 16 ? (less VHF traffic?)

I have used the white flare looooong time ago and boy did the freighter react. Maybe they had a big sign under the bridge DO NOT SMOKE :P

A 700 ft freighter ran in foggy weather (0.5nm visibility)into the Annapolis Newport RI race track at 02:30am in 2009 about 60nm east of Ocean City MD. I heard it first coming up from behind. The Navy 44 yacht ahead of us was much closer to the path when the freighter turned on the foghorn and turned 90 deg away from us. Nobody could ever id the ship and the CG was later unable as well.

#183 dogwatch

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:49 AM

Some interesting remarks on AIS although around here at least, some powered craft such as smaller fishing boats are not yet required to carry it. That aside can anyone explain how an AIS-capable VHF such as http://www.electroni...&productid=1318 calculates the bearing to target?

#184 prof_mariner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

Is channel 13 preferred over ch 16 ? (less VHF traffic?)



Everyone monitors 16 so that's the channel I would hail them on, then once comms are established switch to a working frequency.

Sailing in fog is another whole subject. I wouldn't be out there in fog without a radar. I know people do it, but just the thought of sailing down the SOCAL coast in fog without a radar sends shivers down my spine.




#185 Ho'Okele

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:55 AM

- I'm pretty sure based on STCW 95, many ships operate with one bridge watchstander during the day and they're supposed to station a dedicated lookout from dusk to dawn.



Just to clarify this point, according to COLREGS every vessel while underway must have a lookout on watch who holds no other responsibilities, so the "minimum" number of personnel on watch on the bridge is supposed to be 2 (typically one OICNW and one AB/OS), at least that's what the manning document on every vessel I've ever served on required. That way the mate on watch can perform his other obligations (plotting a fix, update the log, checking the radar, etc.) while the AB keeps a proper lookout. Time of day has nothing to do with it.


Thanks for clarifying, but it seems you're mixing COLREGS with STCW or something else. COLREGS Rule 5 requires a proper lookout, but doesn't require any particular manning system. STCW, I believe does...although the text is not freely available on the internet...how does that make any sense?

#186 prof_mariner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:56 AM

That aside can anyone explain how an AIS-capable VHF such as http://www.electroni...&productid=1318calculates the bearing to target?



I believe it uses your GPS position and the AIS contact's reported position to calculate the display.

#187 prof_mariner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:02 PM

@Ho Okele - I don't have the pubs at hand so am pulling this from (perhaps faulty) memory. The ships I've worked on were all US flagged and had USCG manning documents which mandated how many personnel we had on board. All of this (and COLREGS for that matter) are also covered in the CFR's which I also don't have on hand at the moment. But you may be right about the STCW's covering this.

#188 kp46kan

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:17 PM


To be clear, I did not alter or overwrite your questions, I merely added balancing questions to round out the investigative reasoning, and used caps to differentiate my inputs from yours.

Let's consider your questions, as stand-alones, then, shall we?
1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night?
Um... let me think ... trick question, I'm sure ... uh ... Yes, Sir, I believe a ship with a proper watch would (and has) unknowingly run down a sailboat at night. In 2008 there was a small sailing vessel run down/over by a commercial vessel off the UK coast. Same questions. I wish I could find the investigative report - I pored over it because I was aghast that no one stopped to render assistance, that it even happened .. and this was on a delivery, not a race, so the decision to turn on the engine wasn't a big dilemma. I'll look for the report. I hope I PDF'd it.

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance?
Unless the ship with proper watch was engaged in illegal activity (an unheard-of occurrence on the west coast), it would indeed stop to render assistance to a boat that it had knowingly hit, with its proper watch in place. No mariner knowingly strands another mariner ... or was this a trick question?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"?
The answer to this question would depend upon the findings of the investigation, and I for one am content to wait for the results of the investigation, having read the report I referred to in Q1, which indeed found the larger vessel did maintain proper watch. It was extremely informative as to the "blind spots" created by the angle from the bridge to the water.


I'm ok with being labelled or appearing an idiot for asking too many questions, rather than asking too few, jhc.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/2007/ouzo.cfm

Link to the report I referred to in my post above. My mistake, it was 2006, not "2008".

And the SA discussion about it: http://forums.sailin...showtopic=40368



#189 kp46kan

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:18 PM

Excellent report. Especially the info on radar reflectors. Thanks.

#190 'moondance44

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:24 PM

Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.

OCEAN ARIADNE was last tanker moored offshore PEMEX Terminal, Rosarito Beach through Friday. Debris field was reported by media as approx. 8 miles west of Rosarito, three miles south of South Coronado, where OA likely transited, her AIS possibly non-operative.

If I were CG, I would want to meet this ship before she arrives at March Point Terminal, Anacortes, WA, ETA 1300 PDST May 1. Just sayin'


where are you getting that ship name?

#191 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:36 PM


[
Are you saying that there won't be any lawsuits filed? Against NOSA?


Well, no one can promise that stupid suits won't be filed, but you can promise that there won't be a judgment for the plaintiff. What, exactly, would be the grounds of the suit? Are you assuming that Orange County small claims court has jurisdiction over events in international waters? You realize that Admiralty law explicitly indemnified all parties that are not directly involved in the cause of the collision. Can you outline a basis for a lawsuit against NOSA that could be heard in state court?



Not to nit-pick, but Cali small claims court is only good up to $7,500.00 right now. And you can't bring in your lawyer to speak to the judge. Secondly, I'm almost positive that this accident occurred in Mexican waters, not international waters.....

#192 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:37 PM

It happened (no blame, sucks) and it will happen again unless some sort of simple to use collision avoidance technology is mandated. Until then you all are flapping yout gums and wasting your time. We are no less likely to see another accident becuase of this thread as it stands to this point. To many sailors are unable to identify and comprehend the proximity and heading of potential collision ships at night. The tricky part is, even if you can visually acquire the ship early enough, a ship on a collision course has no relative movement until it is very close. We all know of the countless close calls and near misses that happen, often even in the daytime (let alone at night). When night, fog, seas, strong wind, shorthanded or fatigued crews enter the situation the likelihood of this result increases dramatically. Radar (most small race boats dont have it) requires skill to use effectively. Variablility in human intelligence and experience clearly exists. Some crews are less capable than others. Even a strong crew has some chance of being run down. Ships maneuver, engines won't start, mistakes are made. So these accidents are going to keep happening until a simple technology is mandated to take the chance and complexity out of a clearly EXTREMELY dangerous potential accident type. Assuming this was not a submarine (my fear).

Flarm is that technology for aircraft collision avoidance and it is currenrly being adapted into those giant trucks you see at mines. They have collision probelms as well with the very high location of the driver. They have been running over normal cars by accident regularly. With flarm, the mine collision problem has been reduced by a large amount. Ships and small boats should have this tech. Its far better than radar becuase it predicts the results of potential turns and forecasts. Radar is a very old technology and requires interpretation.

Talking about it wont change this. We need to take meaninful action. For $1500 a pop this accident would not have happened. Neither will the next one which WILL happen

Ships should be required to have Flarm. Small boaters should be lining up to have them. Problem solved. Anything else is a waste of time.

http://www.flarm.com...n/index_en.html

#193 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:39 PM

This is just general info and not specific to this race:

Outside of where a US pilot has to be on board, my experience with ships having anyone that can speak English answer the radio and/or appear to be keeping a proper lookout has been variable.

A masthead running light with 25 watts 50-80 feet up in the air (what I use offshore) shows up well against a dark sea from what I can tell. Against shore lights, even a big ship can blend in until the last minute.

Ships are SILENT until they pass you and a cargo/tanker ship is just a few lights and a lot of pitch black steel. I had a buddy try to go "between the two boats" and he would have t-boned a tanker at 35 knots if I hadn't been there :o

Ships seem to like to run S-Band radar at 24 mile range with sea clutter turned up a bit. Good fkn luck getting seen with a radar set like that. (S-band is great for burning through rain and seeing steel ships. Small targets - not so much)

AIS is a huge help, but then again I had a car carrier pass close aboard (no risk, just tight quarters) and NEVER show up on my AIS. I called them and asked about it and they said "that thing never works" :o So don't count on it 100%

Despite the Gov Cup being run for decades now, EVERY ONE I have ever been on has some of the pilots surprised and confused by all the traffic. In a crowd, anything they do to avoid one boat puts them closer to another too. The instructions for that race at least require the racers to give way to commercial shipping to avoid this kind of chain reaction.

#194 Aviator

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:42 PM

"...Two race participants who were in the area at the time the Aegean disappeared said they saw or heard a freighter. Cindy Arosteguy of Oxnard, Calif., remembers hearing on her radio someone say, "Do you see us?" as she saw a tanker about a half-mile away. "I got back on the radio and said, 'Yes, I see you,'" she said. "It was definitely a freighter."

- copied from the report on the SA home page.

I think this must be media garble. Two days or less after the incident, she "remembers hearing..someone"(??) but doesn't know who she heard? From the way it is reported, I infer that she assumed she was conversing with the freighter she could see. But what if she had actually heard the "Aegean" asking the freighter if the freighter saw them, and then her response was interpreted by the crew of the Hunter as coming from the freighter and everything was okay?

I strongly doubt, and sincerely hope, that this is not what happened.

My heartfelt condolonces to the families and friends of the crew, and to the local sailing community.

#195 prof_mariner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:49 PM

@Bowgirl - The link to the UK report is an excellent read. Very thorough. Highly recommended.

#196 kent_island_sailor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:53 PM

Anyone want over/under on how long to:
AIS receive required
AIS transceiver required

#197 R Booth

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:56 PM


<Much more enjoyable 80 miles out.....>




What a fucking narcissistic piece of crap you are.
Give it a rest.



So you don't wanna hear about how I also killed a Kraken that evening? Using just my Rolex and a martini glass?....

#198 Sailabout

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:01 PM

Anyone want over/under on how long to:
AIS receive required
AIS transceiver required

The transmission is speed based with about 3 steps

#199 Ludicrous Speed

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:03 PM

AIS requires radar. Needs to be simple. Flarm is GPS and radio based. Requires nothing (no radar). Simple. Does not require interpretation. Intelligent, predicts possible turns of both vessels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLARM

Flarm in mining: http://www.safe-mine.com/

Anyone want over/under on how long to:
AIS receive required
AIS transceiver required



#200 MaxLength

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 01:09 PM

Does anyone have any knowledge about commercial ship tracking? I.e., assuming that Aegean was hit by a large commercial ship (which is what the speculation seems to be, given the size of the small size of the debris that has been found), and contact with the sailboat was lost at 1:30 a.m. (can't remember date), wouldn't it be possible for maritime authorities to find out what ships were in the vicinity at the time? Or would this not be possible?

Sorry if this has been covered in this thread already --haven't had time to read through it.




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