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#301 One eye Jack

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:17 PM

Everybody thinks that all mariners are rich and can afford all of these electronic devices that can and do malfunction or fail...if you and a ship on collision course at night..have you ever wondered what that white flair is for? They are normally with that flair gun package that you bought...AWhite flair is exactly for an occurrence like that...shining a flashlight or trying to contact on the radio... Or using this or that...some shipping companies cut their overhead with the radar off and one crewman on duty...and what if that one crewman had to take a leak or went off the bridge for some thing..you don't think it happens? If anybody is anywhere near an open hatch, or port will wonder why the sky just lite up...even for a few seconds..and will investigate..even those million candlepower spotlights don't light up the sky like that WHITE flair...lots of times when we sailed around a lot of ship traffic..we would have a loaded gun with a white flair already in it in one of the empty sheet bags..ready to use...but if you want to depend on all of these electronic devices..it's your prerogative...or a trusted used or centuries proven device? do you know that the military can and do turn off the GPS satellites?

#302 ccruiser

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:18 PM





[
Are you saying that there won't be any lawsuits filed? Against NOSA?


Well, no one can promise that stupid suits won't be filed, but you can promise that there won't be a judgment for the plaintiff. What, exactly, would be the grounds of the suit? Are you assuming that Orange County small claims court has jurisdiction over events in international waters? You realize that Admiralty law explicitly indemnified all parties that are not directly involved in the cause of the collision. Can you outline a basis for a lawsuit against NOSA that could be heard in state court?


OC small claims court? Ahhhhhh.......

The action could be for wrongful death. The issue would be whether or not NOSA was negligent.

One could argue that NOSA (that is, the NOSA Board), in it's unsatiable qwest for more revenue, broadened the scope of the event to include those who would be less likely to possess the skills necessary to venture out on an overnight race, crossing dangerous and busy commercial lanes, and did nothing to ensure that all entries were qualified to deal with such circumstances.

There were no criteria around something as simple as swimming ability, or knowledge of the COLREGS, or instruction on how to navigate busy channels at night, or how to read running lights, or safety measures like carrying flares at the ready near the helm. What criteria were established to be able to stand watch and be responsible for the boat and the lives of the crewmembers sleeping below?

One could argue that NOSA, knowing full well that the race had been expanded to include wingnuts, and knowing full well that night time sailing in shipping lanes was dangerous, did nothing but focus on additional revenue. Infact, by offering valuable monetary incentives, like a two year Lexus lease, NOSA altered the very nature of the Ensenada Race and induced folks to enter who might not have ever ventured offshore.

But - the race had been run for 65 years with no serious incident... Yes, true, but prior races were restricted to racing classes, those that presumably had the skills to go offshore. Further, the event had been run by experienced and knowledagble racers at NOSA...


So, those might be the positions taken by an avaricious attorney. Do not confuse those positions with my personal position, and send me angry messages, as I am an Ayn Rand disciple. And I did not vote for BHO.

The question remains, what will now be the fate of the Ensenada Race? Gird your loins, NOSA, and call your D & O policy holder. The sharks are circling.



It is interesting all of the legal theories that you suggest could be attempted against NOSA. The reality is, the sport has been designed by lawyers from Day 1 to protect the race organizers. The organizing authorities reponsibilities are to "Start a Race" and "Finish a Race." I sure don't ask for more or less from any race or regatta I go to.

Where the line is drawn is reinforced in the rules as follows:

"4 DECISION TO RACE
The responsibility for a boat’s decision to participate in a race or to continue racing is hers alone."

Nobody forced this Hunter 37 to enter this race, it was their option. Nobody forced them to start or continue in this race, they chose to. They chose their safety equipment (USCG minimum required meeting the country's laws). They chose their crew. They chose their course, they chose their watches, they chose everything.

There are no laws requiring race organizers to test participants, there is no national database of educational classes attended and passed for participants. Do your own survey and you'll find most boat owners have not even taken a USCG Aux or US Power Squadron course. But around the bar, every person will brag how experienced and how much knowledge they possess. But good luck finding this knowledge tested in writing and results posted.

As you know there's a requirement for motor vehicles - drivers license, which shows a minimum of knowledge and skill. There is no such equivalent in boating. Some rumyuckle can buy a boat this afternoon with no experience and no training, go sailing for the first time ever and go out sailing in a hurricane. And you want to suggest that is someone else's fault in society that it occurred? No, we love sailing because we do take personal responsibility for out actions. Someone spill a hot cup of coffee on their lap on a sailboat? They deserved it. They can't blame someone else.

To me it is admirable that we have succeeded as one of the final frontiers of freedom with very little government influence. And that personal responsibility is still in force in this sport.



Good points.

However, consider that a waiver of claims, before a negligent act, is not a bar to a lawsuit.

Next comes the issue of the very validity of a waiver of liability. Courts have held that a waiver of liability for negligence is against public policy. And if against public policy, then the courts will not uphold it.

Nimrod the Sailor (NtS) simply cannot be held accountable for risks that he could not possibly be aware of. This issue has far more meaning if the waiver clearly stated the dangers inherent in racing at night, in busy shipping lanes and the need to have qualified folks in charge, at all times, of each vessel. It did not say that severe injury, even death, is a risk of the event.

So, ordinary negligence or gross negilence?

Now, the question therefore becomes: was NOSA negligent in inducing Nimrods to race without informing them of the dangers and doing very little to educate them or set standards for entries?

Which begs the question, what is the standard of care for conducting an overnight race in international waters and in potentially hazardous conditions? We know the Transpac has very strict standards for entries, equipment, and experience. As does Cabo, the Fastnet, etc. We see Kent Island in a post above comment that his club reacted to an influx of Nimrods by establishing new standards for a local race.

Having said all that, please be aware that I do not advocate the potential positions described above. I am just pointing out a probable outcome driven by avaricious, blackhearted lawyers.

Dorag, your on a roll. But you comments do not withstand analysis - 1. a pre-event waiver is effective, 2. waivers of negligence claims are valid, and are not in the vast majority of cases against public policy - waivers of gross negligence are against public policy. 3. You assume that a duty exists for race organizers to undertake a detailed analysis of the qualifications of each boat and all of its crew members, from where does such a duty arise? While a few races, longer distance and more difficult races, have taken a closer look at the crews, specifically the owner/captain and watch captains, none has required anything other than that they submit resumes and that their boats be inspected. (Two of these events - the Caribbean 1500 and the NARC both go to extensive lengths to insure that the boats and crew are offshore capable, and both have suffered loss of life and boats.) Last I knew, which is awhile back, at least the inspected part applied to the Ensanada race. Also the rules expressly remove any such duty - you decide if you want to sail. 4. Finally, cruising does not count? Really? So you think that cruiser do not have to be competent sailors; they do not understand the rules of the road, they do not know what lights for example a tug with tow will be showing. Really? You must not have ever done any substantial cruising, you know that stuff where you cross the Atlantic, or sail to Bemuda or the Eastern Caribbean Islands, or Mexico and Central America. Joshua Slocum, the Pardeys, the Dashews, etc were all cruisers - are you really asserting that they did not know what they were doing?

You attempt to make a legal case, but have yet to establish the fundimental elements - 1. the existence of a duty on the race organizers to undertake an investigation of the qualifications of each boat and each crew member, 2. whether if they had done so they would not have allowed this boat and crew, that had raced before and won, to race, (do you even know the qualifiactions of this crew - no); and 3. how this accident happened, and therefore the relationship, if any, between what you assert to be the race organizer's breach of duty, (letting what you assume, without factual basis, to be an inexperienced crew race), and this accident. Unless you establish each of these elements your asserted claim fails as a matter of law. We do not even reach the waiver issue.

Every responsible sailor knows you need to maintain a lookout, especially in "shipping lanes," and we do not know what happened here, although it is almost certain that the boat was run down/struck by something big - a ship or tow. What we do not know, and will undoutedly never know is why this happened. Was the ship not showing lights, did the boat not have a watch, did the watch crew not know what the lights he saw meant, were the ship's lights lost in the light scatter ashore, should the owner have been using radar, if he was not. For all we know a submarine surfaced undernieth the boat. The list of questions is not endless but it is long, and until you know the answers litigation is problematic to say the least.

I have raced and sailed a lot of miles offshore. More than once competent crew have become disoriented about, or missed, ship lights. All of us have had closer calls than we would have liked, no matter the level of experience. I love AIS, but still post a watch and insist they keep a lookout - I have seen more than one large ship that was not transmitting, and a 50 foot fishing vessal can certainly sink a sail boat.

So I sincerely think you need to sit down, and relax, stick to waht you know, and be a little less prejudiced/judgmental, and perhaps more respectful of your fellow sailors, even cruisers.

#303 Greyhawk

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:26 PM

This race was ISAF category 3 with AIS Transponder recommended.

In category 2 the AIS Transponder is already a must.

There is a big difference pricewise between AIS receiver andtransponder !!!!
Not sure about the powerconsumption of a transponder vs. receiver.




The power consumption of my class-B AIS transponder is really not very much. It is only sending out a short burst of data (milliseconds?) in a low power transmission (2 watts?) once every 30 seconds. My Vesper Marine display is also optimized to use minimal amounts of power.

I also have a EchoMax Active-X Radar Target Enhancer -- and it's power consumption is also very small, depending on the number of radars that are pinging it.

#304 LISBS

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:26 PM

Everybody thinks that all mariners are rich and can afford all of these electronic devices that can and do malfunction or fail...if you and a ship on collision course at night..have you ever wondered what that white flair is for? They are normally with that flair gun package that you bought...AWhite flair is exactly for an occurrence like that...shining a flashlight or trying to contact on the radio... Or using this or that...some shipping companies cut their overhead with the radar off and one crewman on duty...and what if that one crewman had to take a leak or went off the bridge for some thing..you don't think it happens? If anybody is anywhere near an open hatch, or port will wonder why the sky just lite up...even for a few seconds..and will investigate..even those million candlepower spotlights don't light up the sky like that WHITE flair...lots of times when we sailed around a lot of ship traffic..we would have a loaded gun with a white flair already in it in one of the empty sheet bags..ready to use...but if you want to depend on all of these electronic devices..it's your prerogative...or a trusted used or centuries proven device? do you know that the military can and do turn off the GPS satellites?


there are 2 people on watch, the mate and the AB

#305 ProaSailor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:27 PM

It sounds like at least 2 or the 4 crew were quite experienced. There is some evidence (life raft onboard, tethered to debris, experienced skipper) this crew was practicing safe-sailing...accidents can and will continue to happen.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_YACHT_RACE_DEATHS_FLOL-?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME


The Rudolphs would have celebrated their 27th anniversary on May 26 and he leaves two grown children, his wife said. Rudolph and other crewmembers worked for the Raytheon company in El Segundo, she said.

In addition to yachting, Rudolph sponsored robotics competitions, and loved to cook, fish and play the harmonica in a band, his wife said.

"He just loved life," she said.


I think it's a reasonable assumption that this crew understood all the technology available.

#306 El Mariachi

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:32 PM

AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.


SHIPSPOTTING.COM



OVERSEAS ARIADMAR - IMO 9273624


Posted Image


PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /


Home port:Majuro, Class society:Lloyd´s Shipping Register, Build year:2004, Builder*:Stx Offshore & ShipbuildingJinhae, South Korea


Owner:Overseas Shipholding GroupNew York Ny, U.s.a


.Manager:Osg Shipmanagement GreeceAthens, Greece



That's a big f'ng hammer....

#307 C&C 115

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:34 PM

there had to have been almost no wind. before we withdrew, we were doing triple zero's at around that time for at least an hour. we were surely further down the track, but i think the wind shut off for almost everyone. if a big boat comes steaming along, you are a sitting duck. And where we were, there were almost no boats around us - you could have a mishap and no one would even know.....



No you aren't... turn on the motor. That boat probably does 7-8 knots in "Get the fuck out of the way of that big ship" mode.

This isn't the first comment I have seen that said there was little wind as if that was their only means of propulsion.

#308 sumrsd

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:36 PM

Does anyone know the lat/long of the last ping on this "race tracker" we keep hearing about in the media? How about the lat/long of the debris field?

#309 Rondog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM

Cool website on the ship!

Click "Show on map" on top right.

http://www.marinetra...&MMSI=538002284

#310 VALIS

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:39 PM


It sounds like at least 2 or the 4 crew were quite experienced. There is some evidence (life raft onboard, tethered to debris, experienced skipper) this crew was practicing safe-sailing...accidents can and will continue to happen.

http://hosted.ap.org...ET&SECTION=HOME


The Rudolphs would have celebrated their 27th anniversary on May 26 and he leaves two grown children, his wife said. Rudolph and other crewmembers worked for the Raytheon company in El Segundo, she said.

In addition to yachting, Rudolph sponsored robotics competitions, and loved to cook, fish and play the harmonica in a band, his wife said.

"He just loved life," she said.


I think it's a reasonable assumption that this crew understood all the technology available.


Continuing my wild speculation, in the reports of the overheard VHF communications Agean was calling the large ship by name. To me this implies that Agean had an AIS receiver, it not a transponder.

FWIW, my Class-B transponder draws about 0.3A @ 12V. If I want to use the received AIS data I also need to have my chartplotter or computer turned on, so that's another couple of amps. This is still less than my radar consumes. The new VHF radios with built-in AIS receivers are probably among the lowest-power receive-only solutions available.

#311 CruiserJim

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:41 PM



OVERSEAS ARIADMAR - IMO 9273624


That's a big f'ng hammer....


Yeah, too bad they are headed upwind all the way to WA, pounding straight into seas for 1200 miles may wash away any conclusive evidence.

#312 Ho'Okele

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:43 PM

AIS requires radar. Needs to be simple. Flarm is GPS and radio based. Requires nothing (no radar). Simple. Does not require interpretation. Intelligent, predicts possible turns of both vessels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLARM

Flarm in mining: http://www.safe-mine.com/


Anyone want over/under on how long to:
AIS receive required
AIS transceiver required


Not so much...AIS requires only a VHF signal path to xmit/rcv the data and a GPS input. If you don't have the GPS input, you can still receive information, but without an own-ship position, you'll have no bearing/range info, but you will still have everyone's position/cse/spd, so if you had a laptop that could display the contacts, you'd know where they were. (At least that's the way ours functions.)

#313 CowboyKell

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:47 PM

Cool website on the ship!

Click "Show on map" on top right.

http://www.marinetra...&MMSI=538002284


Is this the boat people think was in the area??? That ships track is over 200 miles from the race rhumb line.

#314 Jetsam

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:48 PM


there had to have been almost no wind. before we withdrew, we were doing triple zero's at around that time for at least an hour. we were surely further down the track, but i think the wind shut off for almost everyone. if a big boat comes steaming along, you are a sitting duck. And where we were, there were almost no boats around us - you could have a mishap and no one would even know.....



No you aren't... turn on the motor. That boat probably does 7-8 knots in "Get the fuck out of the way of that big ship" mode.

This isn't the first comment I have seen that said there was little wind as if that was their only means of propulsion.


I suppose its natural to assume they could get the engine started, but engines dont always start.. impossible to know what happened and will likely never know. its a sad thing this..

#315 dudewood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:51 PM

amateurish issue-spotting


I think that is Dorag's middle name......

#316 stolpsTDI

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:57 PM

Does anyone know the lat/long of the last ping on this "race tracker" we keep hearing about in the media? How about the lat/long of the debris field?


We sailed through debris about 2 miles due west of S. Coronado.

#317 Ho'Okele

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:58 PM

Everybody thinks that all mariners are rich and can afford all of these electronic devices that can and do malfunction or fail...if you and a ship on collision course at night..have you ever wondered what that white flair is for? They are normally with that flair gun package that you bought...AWhite flair is exactly for an occurrence like that...shining a flashlight or trying to contact on the radio... Or using this or that...some shipping companies cut their overhead with the radar off and one crewman on duty...and what if that one crewman had to take a leak or went off the bridge for some thing..you don't think it happens? If anybody is anywhere near an open hatch, or port will wonder why the sky just lite up...even for a few seconds..and will investigate..even those million candlepower spotlights don't light up the sky like that WHITE flair...lots of times when we sailed around a lot of ship traffic..we would have a loaded gun with a white flair already in it in one of the empty sheet bags..ready to use...but if you want to depend on all of these electronic devices..it's your prerogative...or a trusted used or centuries proven device? do you know that the military can and do turn off the GPS satellites?


Good points, Jack...except the last one. Selective availability (SA) is a capability of the system to introduce error into the commercially available systems, denying accuracy to the general population using Standard Positioning System (SPS), while the military receivers still receive Precise Positioning System (PPS) signals (Y-code) with a high degree of accuracy. The S/A error has been dialed down to zero since 1 May 2000 (by order of Pres. Clinton). If you're not getting satellites, it's due to coverage gaps caused by satellite failure. Maybe your tin-foil foulie hat is deflecting the signal? :)

#318 CruiserJim

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:00 PM

Actually it appears the ship's track crosses the course, and the timing is about right.
Attached File  Overseas Ariadmar Track.JPG   109.81K   242 downloads

#319 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:02 PM

Cool website on the ship!

Click "Show on map" on top right.

http://www.marinetra...&MMSI=538002284


http://www.marinetra...2012 2:58:00 AM

#320 us7070

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:08 PM


Everybody thinks that all mariners are rich and can afford all of these electronic devices that can and do malfunction or fail...if you and a ship on collision course at night..have you ever wondered what that white flair is for? They are normally with that flair gun package that you bought...AWhite flair is exactly for an occurrence like that...shining a flashlight or trying to contact on the radio... Or using this or that...some shipping companies cut their overhead with the radar off and one crewman on duty...and what if that one crewman had to take a leak or went off the bridge for some thing..you don't think it happens? If anybody is anywhere near an open hatch, or port will wonder why the sky just lite up...even for a few seconds..and will investigate..even those million candlepower spotlights don't light up the sky like that WHITE flair...lots of times when we sailed around a lot of ship traffic..we would have a loaded gun with a white flair already in it in one of the empty sheet bags..ready to use...but if you want to depend on all of these electronic devices..it's your prerogative...or a trusted used or centuries proven device? do you know that the military can and do turn off the GPS satellites?


Good points, Jack...except the last one. Selective availability (SA) is a capability of the system to introduce error into the commercially available systems, denying accuracy to the general population using Standard Positioning System (SPS), while the military receivers still receive Precise Positioning System (PPS) signals (Y-code) with a high degree of accuracy. The S/A error has been dialed down to zero since 1 May 2000 (by order of Pres. Clinton). If you're not getting satellites, it's due to coverage gaps caused by satellite failure. Maybe your tin-foil foulie hat is deflecting the signal? :)



if you are lighting the white flare, it probably means you already think a collision is possible.

the AIS can prevent you from getting in to such a situation.

I have a Garmin handheld that uses both GPS and GLONASS satellites - other than local jamming, the military would probably have to shoot down the GLONASS satellites to stop them from being used.

I am not aware of and AIS or other marine systems with GLONASS and GPS ability, but I would guess they will be out soon.

#321 walterbshaffer

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:23 PM

Is this the boat people think was in the area??? That ships track is over 200 miles from the race rhumb line.



We sailed through debris about 2 miles due west of S. Coronado.


Yes; the port of Rosarito where this vessel departed from at around midnight, is just about due east of the debris field and the track goes due west right through it. As a part of the cruising classes Aegean could have motored to this approx location.

#322 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:24 PM


Does anyone know the lat/long of the last ping on this "race tracker" we keep hearing about in the media? How about the lat/long of the debris field?


We sailed through debris about 2 miles due west of S. Coronado.



And was the usual slow moving s/east Cali current doing it's normal thing?....

#323 Touch of Gray

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:29 PM

Bringing boat north from Bay Area to Seattle, nice northwesterly, able to make close hauled course due north. Clear night off Oregon coast, 20 miles or so offshore, we have a masthead tricolor. Visual on a large ship coming from astern, make calls at 25w on VHF Ch 16 and 13 to no avail. Tacked away. Was there anyone listening to VHF? Doubtful. Did they see us? Will never know. However, when in a VTS system the VHF is useful as I've spoken to pilots or watch stander on a bridge in the Straits of Juan de Fuca in thick fog. Open ocean, less so, although did have a Matson ship call us at night as we got near Oahu in a Pac Cup race just to say he had us in sight, then kept up a chat to ask us who we were etc. Pleasant (American) Mate on the bridge that night!

Condolences to the loved ones of those lost at sea.

TOG

#324 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:30 PM


amateurish issue-spotting


I think that is Dorag's middle name......


No, you are wrong.

My middle name is Demetreous.

#325 us7070

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:43 PM




Everybody thinks that all mariners are rich and can afford all of these electronic devices that can and do malfunction or fail...if you and a ship on collision course at night..have you ever wondered what that white flair is for? They are normally with that flair gun package that you bought...AWhite flair is exactly for an occurrence like that...shining a flashlight or trying to contact on the radio... Or using this or that...some shipping companies cut their overhead with the radar off and one crewman on duty...and what if that one crewman had to take a leak or went off the bridge for some thing..you don't think it happens? If anybody is anywhere near an open hatch, or port will wonder why the sky just lite up...even for a few seconds..and will investigate..even those million candlepower spotlights don't light up the sky like that WHITE flair...lots of times when we sailed around a lot of ship traffic..we would have a loaded gun with a white flair already in it in one of the empty sheet bags..ready to use...but if you want to depend on all of these electronic devices..it's your prerogative...or a trusted used or centuries proven device? do you know that the military can and do turn off the GPS satellites?


Good points, Jack...except the last one. Selective availability (SA) is a capability of the system to introduce error into the commercially available systems, denying accuracy to the general population using Standard Positioning System (SPS), while the military receivers still receive Precise Positioning System (PPS) signals (Y-code) with a high degree of accuracy. The S/A error has been dialed down to zero since 1 May 2000 (by order of Pres. Clinton). If you're not getting satellites, it's due to coverage gaps caused by satellite failure. Maybe your tin-foil foulie hat is deflecting the signal? :)


I hate when you get jammed!

if you are lighting the white flare, it probably means you already think a collision is possible.

the AIS can prevent you from getting in to such a situation.

I have a Garmin handheld that uses both GPS and GLONASS satellites - other than local jamming, the military would probably have to shoot down the GLONASS satellites to stop them from being used.

I am not aware of and AIS or other marine systems with GLONASS and GPS ability, but I would guess they will be out soon.


what the fuck is going on with people not using the quote function properly?

I did not post that video...

Ho'Okele added it inside my quotes.

this is the second time recently that someone has added something dumb, or insensitive inside my quotes.

#326 theweej

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:48 PM


Is this the boat people think was in the area??? That ships track is over 200 miles from the race rhumb line.



We sailed through debris about 2 miles due west of S. Coronado.


Yes; the port of Rosarito where this vessel departed from at around midnight, is just about due east of the debris field and the track goes due west right through it. As a part of the cruising classes Aegean could have motored to this approx location.


The MarineTraffic site is showing UTC time, does that still put them in the area at the right time?

#327 CowboyKell

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:50 PM


Is this the boat people think was in the area??? That ships track is over 200 miles from the race rhumb line.



We sailed through debris about 2 miles due west of S. Coronado.


Yes; the port of Rosarito where this vessel departed from at around midnight, is just about due east of the debris field and the track goes due west right through it. As a part of the cruising classes Aegean could have motored to this approx location.


\The first link I looked at was wrong.

Upon closer inspection of the AIS track and the reported debris field the Overseas Ariadmar was at least 70 miles away at 0130 local time when the tracker was reported lost.

There is definately a margin of error in everything here. Was the debris field "actually" 2 miles due west of South Coronado? Was there a tracker? Could the tracker have operateded and floated for 5 hours after the Aegean was struck? Could the Aegean been 2 miles south of the Coronados at 10 PM local time Friday night?

#328 ProaSailor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:51 PM

Actually it appears the ship's track crosses the course, and the timing is about right.


Are you sure? See attached; at the yellow arrow, I read "2012-04-28T04:01:00" (UTC) - that would be 9:01pm Friday in this area?

Posted Image

#329 Rondog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:56 PM

4/28/12 is Friday?

#330 ProaSailor

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:00 PM

4/28/12 is Friday?


UTC minus 7 hours makes it 9:01 pm Friday in California when it's 4:01am in the U.K. (Greenwich)

(oops, thanks for the corrections, moondance44 and pseudocrow, been living in Hawaii too long! Yikes!! We don't have Daylight Savings in Hawaii either; 7 hours not 8 or 10)

#331 CowboyKell

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:02 PM

4/28/12 is Friday?

Yes.

"12-04-28 T 01:41:00" is 6:41 PM Friday the 27th of April 2012.

#332 'moondance44

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:02 PM


4/28/12 is Friday?


UTC minus 10 hours makes it 6:01 pm Friday in California when it's 4:01am in the U.K. (Greenwich)


7 HOURS?

#333 pseudocrow

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:04 PM

4/28/12 is Friday?


If I'm not completely out of it this afternoon, 04:01:00 on 04/28/12 in UTC is 9:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time on Friday, 4/27/12.

#334 One eye Jack

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:04 PM

1335810402[/url]' post='3693298']

1335809836[/url]' post='3693286']
Everybody thinks that all mariners are rich and can afford all of these electronic devices that can and do malfunction or fail...if you and a ship on collision course at night..have you ever wondered what that white flair is for? They are normally with that flair gun package that you bought...AWhite flair is exactly for an occurrence like that...shining a flashlight or trying to contact on the radio... Or using this or that...some shipping companies cut their overhead with the radar off and one crewman on duty...and what if that one crewman had to take a leak or went off the bridge for some thing..you don't think it happens? If anybody is anywhere near an open hatch, or port will wonder why the sky just lite up...even for a few seconds..and will investigate..even those million candlepower spotlights don't light up the sky like that WHITE flair...lots of times when we sailed around a lot of ship traffic..we would have a loaded gun with a white flair already in it in one of the empty sheet bags..ready to use...but if you want to depend on all of these electronic devices..it's your prerogative...or a trusted used or centuries proven device? do you know that the military can and do turn off the GPS satellites?


there are 2 people on watch, the mate and the AB


Not always...most 3 rd world ships it is just one..The AB can be in charge as long as the mate or Master is close by..as in a cabin right off he bridge.

#335 Rondog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:05 PM

Actually I calculate -7 hrs.

Good point.

#336 One eye Jack

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:10 PM

1335810737[/url]' post='3693304']

1335809563[/url]' post='3693281']

1335792727[/url]' post='3692890'] AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.


SHIPSPOTTING.COM



OVERSEAS ARIADMAR - IMO 9273624


Posted Image


PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /


Home port:Majuro, Class society:Lloyd´s Shipping Register, Build year:2004, Builder*:Stx Offshore & ShipbuildingJinhae, South Korea


Owner:Overseas Shipholding GroupNew York Ny, U.s.a


.Manager:Osg Shipmanagement GreeceAthens, Greece



That's a big f'ng hammer....

Probably Japanese or Korean owned..Panama flagged...philippine crew...That what most of the pacific ships are...

#337 CruiserJim

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:15 PM


Actually it appears the ship's track crosses the course, and the timing is about right.


Are you sure? See attached; at the yellow arrow, I read "2012-04-28T04:01:00" (UTC) - that would be 9:01pm Friday in this area?


No, I'm not entirely sure, PDT is UTC-7. And as CowboyKell noted, there is a margin of error in everything here. We don't know the exact time or location, drift, etc. What was this "tracker" that Aegean was running? Was is self-contained, could it have floated for a while and the collision happened earlier? Lots of questions, no good answers. It is apparent that this ship did cross the N2E course during the time the race was running, and it could certainly destroy the boat consistent with the descriptions coming in.

#338 Marvin

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:16 PM

Actually I calculate -7 hrs.

Good point.


That is correct, the offset between UTC and Pacific Daylight Time is 7 hours... So the alleged time of incident (1:30am) is Saturday, April 28, 2012 at 08:30:00 UTC.

#339 'moondance44

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:19 PM

1335810737[/url]' post='3693304']

1335809563[/url]' post='3693281']

1335792727[/url]' post='3692890'] AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.


SHIPSPOTTING.COM



OVERSEAS ARIADMAR - IMO 9273624


Posted Image


PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /


Home port:Majuro, Class society:Lloyd´s Shipping Register, Build year:2004, Builder*:Stx Offshore & ShipbuildingJinhae, South Korea


Owner:Overseas Shipholding GroupNew York Ny, U.s.a


.Manager:Osg Shipmanagement GreeceAthens, Greece



That's a big f'ng hammer....

Probably Japanese or Korean owned..Panama flagged...philippine crew...That what most of the pacific ships are...


not really.

while there is no proof that this tanker is the culprit, that particular ship is owned by a very large American shipping company

#340 LISBS

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:20 PM

1335810737[/url]' post='3693304']

1335809563[/url]' post='3693281']

1335792727[/url]' post='3692890'] AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.


SHIPSPOTTING.COM



OVERSEAS ARIADMAR - IMO 9273624


Posted Image


PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /


Home port:Majuro, Class society:Lloyd´s Shipping Register, Build year:2004, Builder*:Stx Offshore & ShipbuildingJinhae, South Korea


Owner:Overseas Shipholding GroupNew York Ny, U.s.a


.Manager:Osg Shipmanagement GreeceAthens, Greece



That's a big f'ng hammer....

Probably Japanese or Korean owned..Panama flagged...philippine crew...That what most of the pacific ships are...


Where do you get your bullshit from? "3rd world ships" Tankers calling the USWC are vetted very strictly and many quality run vsl's are rejected for the simplest things. Please stop spreading your garbage, you obviously know nothing.

My condolence to the family and friends of the people onboard.

#341 CowboyKell

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:25 PM


AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.



PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /



If my math is correct, that puts her approximately 370 nmi from the Coronados. At 10 knots, that would have taken her 37 hours, which would mean she would have had to depart that area at approximately 2000 hours PDT on 4/27. A little earlier than the time of the collision. Someone needs to check me on this. Of course she could have travelled faster for a time, but I would think they would set a constant speed. The other aspect that I've been wondering about is whether it is reasonable to expect that she would take the Coronados to starboard or take the shorter course directly inside the islands? Is there any restriction on her in that respect, such as is the case for her not being allowed to transit the Santa Barbara channel?

I would be interested to hear from our commercial shipping experts.


I know that she was not on the Rosarita mooring at 0700 PDT on 4/28, because we sailed directly through the mooring.


http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/datasheet.aspx?datasource=ITINERARIES&MMSI=538002284

This site gives the track and times every few minutes. No math needed. Except the UTC to local time conversion.

#342 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:25 PM

If I recall, the space 'tween the islands and the mainland there gets as narrow as six miles. Pretty thin, I would think........

#343 LISBS

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:30 PM


AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.



PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /



If my math is correct, that puts her approximately 370 nmi from the Coronados. At 10 knots, that would have taken her 37 hours, which would mean she would have had to depart that area at approximately 2000 hours PDT on 4/27. A little earlier than the time of the collision. Someone needs to check me on this. Of course she could have travelled faster for a time, but I would think they would set a constant speed. The other aspect that I've been wondering about is whether it is reasonable to expect that she would take the Coronados to starboard or take the shorter course directly inside the islands? Is there any restriction on her in that respect, such as is the case for her not being allowed to transit the Santa Barbara channel?

I would be interested to hear from our commercial shipping experts.


I know that she was not on the Rosarita mooring at 0700 PDT on 4/28, because we sailed directly through the mooring.


Highly doubtful that a vsl sailing from Mexico to Washington would transit the Santa Barbara channel. Forgetting about navigation, California has something called "CARB" which would require the vsl to burn Gasoil instead of the normally used Fuel Oil to keep all the tree huggers happy. The ship would be at least 24nm's offshore California the whole trip up the coast to be in compliance and not have to use the more expensive fuel.

#344 VALIS

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

This "tracker" on Aegean may have been a Spot device, in which case the signal's not going to be reported lost until a couple of timed reports are missed. Depending on the unit's settings this can be many hours. The accident likely occurred well before the tracker signal was declared lost.

Of course I don't know what kind of tracker they were carrying, but the Spot is probably the most common.

#345 CowboyKell

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:36 PM

not really.

while there is no proof that this tanker is the culprit, that particular ship is owned by a very large American shipping company


Yes, and as a publicly held company that is almost constantly buying/selling other companies as well as re-organizing itself it generates large revenue for certain law firms.

#346 El Mariachi

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:42 PM



AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.



PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /



If my math is correct, that puts her approximately 370 nmi from the Coronados. At 10 knots, that would have taken her 37 hours, which would mean she would have had to depart that area at approximately 2000 hours PDT on 4/27. A little earlier than the time of the collision. Someone needs to check me on this. Of course she could have travelled faster for a time, but I would think they would set a constant speed. The other aspect that I've been wondering about is whether it is reasonable to expect that she would take the Coronados to starboard or take the shorter course directly inside the islands? Is there any restriction on her in that respect, such as is the case for her not being allowed to transit the Santa Barbara channel?

I would be interested to hear from our commercial shipping experts.


I know that she was not on the Rosarita mooring at 0700 PDT on 4/28, because we sailed directly through the mooring.


Highly doubtful that a vsl sailing from Mexico to Washington would transit the Santa Barbara channel. Forgetting about navigation, California has something called "CARB" which would require the vsl to burn Gasoil instead of the normally used Fuel Oil to keep all the tree huggers happy. The ship would be at least 24nm's offshore California the whole trip up the coast to be in compliance and not have to use the more expensive fuel.


You can thank Mary Nichols and her insane clown posse for that one. Stupid fuking cunt, she's probably done more harm to Cali's economy than any other person in this state. And people wonder why I finally pulled the plug on that gawd-4-saken Seventh World shit hole last month..... :P

#347 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:54 PM

Can't we all just get along?

#348 Rondog

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:58 PM


Actually I calculate -7 hrs.

Good point.


That is correct, the offset between UTC and Pacific Daylight Time is 7 hours... So the alleged time of incident (1:30am) is Saturday, April 28, 2012 at 08:30:00 UTC.



So maybe possible? If I follow correctly it lands southwest of the island. Not sure of scale or distance. (32.1741 , -118.5606)

#349 'moondance44

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:00 PM



not really.

while there is no proof that this tanker is the culprit, that particular ship is owned by a very large American shipping company


Yes, and as a publicly held company that is almost constantly buying/selling other companies as well as re-organizing itself it generates large revenue for certain law firms.


aint that the truth, but they wont be buying anything for awhie.

osg isnt that far gone yet, but all these private equity 'saviors' are leaving alot of
desperate shipping companies with nothing but their shorts.

#350 walterbshaffer

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:06 PM



Is this the boat people think was in the area??? That ships track is over 200 miles from the race rhumb line.



We sailed through debris about 2 miles due west of S. Coronado.


Yes; the port of Rosarito where this vessel departed from at around midnight, is just about due east of the debris field and the track goes due west right through it. As a part of the cruising classes Aegean could have motored to this approx location.


The MarineTraffic site is showing UTC time, does that still put them in the area at the right time?

I did not catch the UTC time stamp, but yeah it would be about that time (although there is some talk about twhen they actually disappeared from the "race tracker")

#351 DrSchadenfreude

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:08 PM

AIS requires radar.


Um, no it doesn't.

#352 DrSchadenfreude

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:19 PM

So why are there 3 dead bodies and another person missing? Apparently it's got some kinks. Does AIS work well enough for the ship and the sailboat? Not everyone is a rocket scientist. It needs to be, and should be, brutally simple for both parties to identify each other and avoid. The current standard seems to have a flaw...


What a massive cock you are. Why don't you read something about AIS and how it works? It's excellent technology.

You should change your screen name to "Flarm."

#353 One eye Jack

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:20 PM

1335817233[/url]' post='3693451']

1335816621[/url]' post='3693436']

1335810737[/url]' post='3693304']

1335809563[/url]' post='3693281']

1335792727[/url]' post='3692890'] AIS receiver Pt.Loma (shipfinder.com) shows OVERSEAS ARIADMAR (apologies for error in name in original post) at Pemex Terminal, Rosarito Beach, prior to tragedy. Her outbound departure/track to Anacortes is not recorded at marinetraffic.com until she appears approx. 150 miles WNW of Pt.Conception on 4/29/12 at 17:08Z. Since then, OA has been steaming N. at 10 knots. You can Google this ship for more info.


SHIPSPOTTING.COM



OVERSEAS ARIADMAR - IMO 9273624


Posted Image


PAST POSITION

2012 May 1st, 20:00:54 UTC Anacortes / 2012 April 24th, 17:00:45 UTC Rosarito /


Home port:Majuro, Class society:Lloyd´s Shipping Register, Build year:2004, Builder*:Stx Offshore & ShipbuildingJinhae, South Korea


Owner:Overseas Shipholding GroupNew York Ny, U.s.a


.Manager:Osg Shipmanagement GreeceAthens, Greece



That's a big f'ng hammer....

Probably Japanese or Korean owned..Panama flagged...philippine crew...That what most of the pacific ships are...


Where do you get your bullshit from? "3rd world ships" Tankers calling the USWC are vetted very strictly and many quality run vsl's are rejected for the simplest things. Please stop spreading your garbage, you obviously know nothing.

My condolence to the family and friends of the people onboard.


If thats what you want to think...I never said that they are not regulated by the US ...so one need to read..not read between

#354 Ho'Okele

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:23 PM





Everybody thinks that all mariners are rich and can afford all of these electronic devices that can and do malfunction or fail...if you and a ship on collision course at night..have you ever wondered what that white flair is for? They are normally with that flair gun package that you bought...AWhite flair is exactly for an occurrence like that...shining a flashlight or trying to contact on the radio... Or using this or that...some shipping companies cut their overhead with the radar off and one crewman on duty...and what if that one crewman had to take a leak or went off the bridge for some thing..you don't think it happens? If anybody is anywhere near an open hatch, or port will wonder why the sky just lite up...even for a few seconds..and will investigate..even those million candlepower spotlights don't light up the sky like that WHITE flair...lots of times when we sailed around a lot of ship traffic..we would have a loaded gun with a white flair already in it in one of the empty sheet bags..ready to use...but if you want to depend on all of these electronic devices..it's your prerogative...or a trusted used or centuries proven device? do you know that the military can and do turn off the GPS satellites?


Good points, Jack...except the last one. Selective availability (SA) is a capability of the system to introduce error into the commercially available systems, denying accuracy to the general population using Standard Positioning System (SPS), while the military receivers still receive Precise Positioning System (PPS) signals (Y-code) with a high degree of accuracy. The S/A error has been dialed down to zero since 1 May 2000 (by order of Pres. Clinton). If you're not getting satellites, it's due to coverage gaps caused by satellite failure. Maybe your tin-foil foulie hat is deflecting the signal? :)


I hate when you get jammed!

if you are lighting the white flare, it probably means you already think a collision is possible.

the AIS can prevent you from getting in to such a situation.

I have a Garmin handheld that uses both GPS and GLONASS satellites - other than local jamming, the military would probably have to shoot down the GLONASS satellites to stop them from being used.

I am not aware of and AIS or other marine systems with GLONASS and GPS ability, but I would guess they will be out soon.


what the fuck is going on with people not using the quote function properly?

I did not post that video...

Ho'Okele added it inside my quotes.

this is the second time recently that someone has added something dumb, or insensitive inside my quotes.


I've removed my post. Had you sent me a PM instead of publicly getting your vajayjay in a knot, I would have happily deleted it and it would be a non-issue.

#355 pseudocrow

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:24 PM


So why are there 3 dead bodies and another person missing? Apparently it's got some kinks. Does AIS work well enough for the ship and the sailboat? Not everyone is a rocket scientist. It needs to be, and should be, brutally simple for both parties to identify each other and avoid. The current standard seems to have a flaw...


What a massive cock you are. Why don't you read something about AIS and how it works? It's excellent technology.

You should change your screen name to "Flarm."


Hey, Doc, Ludicrous has been pretty well worked over on the questions of AIS requiring radar and Flamm some pages back .... poor guy deserves a rest.

#356 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:27 PM

Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.

#357 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:29 PM

Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.


The sub surface zone was moved way, way out and the Navy tends to avoid exercises during a major cluter fuck like the Ensenada Race.

Trust me.

#358 Ho'Okele

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:32 PM


So why are there 3 dead bodies and another person missing? Apparently it's got some kinks. Does AIS work well enough for the ship and the sailboat? Not everyone is a rocket scientist. It needs to be, and should be, brutally simple for both parties to identify each other and avoid. The current standard seems to have a flaw...


What a massive cock you are. Why don't you read something about AIS and how it works? It's excellent technology.

You should change your screen name to "Flarm."


+1 to the good Doctor.

AIS is a brilliant system that requires almost zero operator intervention to work properly. Like any other system, however, you have to understand what it's telling you. With a solid foundation of relative motion, true/relative bearings, range rate, etc, it is a godsend. Without that foundation, it's likely that you'll spend a lot of time trying to match the true bearing/range to what you see from the deck.

#359 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:32 PM

Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....

#360 positivenrj

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:35 PM

Click on 4/29 http://marinetraffic...spx?imo=9273624
View http://marinetraffic...&MMSI=538002284
http://marinetraffic...&MMSI=538002284

4/29

The track on google.

#361 DoRag

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:41 PM


Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....


That's what Saddam said...

#362 pogen

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:42 PM

So many clueless noobs, and so few wife/GF/self tits.

"getemout"

-- MSG

#363 pipsqueak

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:44 PM


Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....



my 2 chihuahuas went insane yapping, then presto, a rusty unmarked sub surfaced less than 50 feet away.
we were ~25 miles offshore dominican republic/haiti border.

#364 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:48 PM



Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....



my 2 chihuahuas went insane yapping, then presto, a rusty unmarked sub surfaced less than 50 feet away.
we were ~25 miles offshore dominican republic/haiti border.



You should have Depp'd the sucker----probably had more coke in it than I could do in a weekend....

#365 Whisper

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:49 PM



Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....



my 2 chihuahuas went insane yapping, then presto, a rusty unmarked sub surfaced less than 50 feet away.
we were ~25 miles offshore dominican republic/haiti border.


Screw AIS, Radar and flim flam flarn--we need chihuahuas!!!

#366 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:52 PM




Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....



my 2 chihuahuas went insane yapping, then presto, a rusty unmarked sub surfaced less than 50 feet away.
we were ~25 miles offshore dominican republic/haiti border.


Screw AIS, Radar and flim flam flarn--we need chihuahuas that Sub !!!


fixed Posted Image

#367 Jambalaya

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:54 PM

I have become an AIS convert, I admit I was somewhat grumpy in having to spend £1,000 for an installed system with masthead transmitter (required RORC spec was for transmit and receive system) last year having done 10 years of offshore 2 handed racing relying on normal "old fashioned" techniques. However one passage back across the shipping lanes of the English Channel in light wind and fog where we could watch all the commercial shipping knowing they too could almost certainly see us convinced me it was money well spent. Of course you still have to maintain caution for vessels not carrying AIS or not monitoring their equipment but net/net I'm glad we had the kit.

We don't know what happened and it is indeed odd that the boat was smashed but it does seem most likely she was run down.

#368 Asymptote

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:01 PM




Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....



my 2 chihuahuas went insane yapping, then presto, a rusty unmarked sub surfaced less than 50 feet away.
we were ~25 miles offshore dominican republic/haiti border.


Screw AIS, Radar and flim flam flarn--we need chihuahuas!!!


Couldn't imagine a more unpleasant critter aboard a boat than a chihuahua...well, maybe a tarantula. If a tarantula barked.

But really, screw AIS, Radar and flim flam flarn......what is it about looking down and staring at a brightly lit screen trying to make sense of blips that makes people think that is a good safety solution? On a calm clear night? And can you imagine if all 200 sailboats were also sending out blips. The screen would look like the 4th of July.

Get your head out of the boat and look around. Often.

Aegean from all reports was a good, competent boat with a good, competent crew. Something awful happened for no currently understandable reason.

#369 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:05 PM




Without reading the whole thread has anyone mentioned a Submarine coming into SD as the Culprit?? They have done in pleasure boaters in the past.

Imagine a Sub surfacing and splitting your boat in half without warning? pretty scary.



I think it's still a big no-no for our military to be dicking around in Mexican waters. Well, without a proper hall pass at least....



my 2 chihuahuas went insane yapping, then presto, a rusty unmarked sub surfaced less than 50 feet away.
we were ~25 miles offshore dominican republic/haiti border.


Screw AIS, Radar and flim flam flarn--we need chihuahuas!!!



Hey, don't underestimate the value of canine-based FLARMs. I helped my friends do bring their Mapleleaf up from Cabo----they had one old stupid golden retriever, but three weeks before leaving La Paz they also somehow ended up with a four month old street mutt. And I'm f'ng telling ya, that dog had more boat sense than any other I've seen. his best asset though? Sniffing/hearing out whales long before we could see them. Even at night. Just amazing----yip yap yip yap yip yap....pheeeeww, whale breath and/or spray. Saved us a couple of times btw, giving us a chance to do some creative dodging. Fuking whales, hate those things......

#370 opusnz

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:16 PM

Aegean from all reports was a good, competent boat with a good, competent crew. Something awful happened for no currently understandable reason.
[/quote]

Hunters are a real POS.....a thin shell with some interior thrown in with some glue to hold it all apart and keep it from imploding. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it fractured into a million pieces after being hit.

#371 jzk

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:19 PM

Hunters are a real POS.....a thin shell with some interior thrown in with some glue to hold it all apart and keep it from imploding. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it fractured into a million pieces after being hit.


I suspect that most fiberglass production sailboats having taken whatever blow hit Aegean would end up as a similar debris field.

#372 Marvin

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:20 PM



Actually I calculate -7 hrs.

Good point.


That is correct, the offset between UTC and Pacific Daylight Time is 7 hours... So the alleged time of incident (1:30am) is Saturday, April 28, 2012 at 08:30:00 UTC.



So maybe possible? If I follow correctly it lands southwest of the island. Not sure of scale or distance. (32.1741 , -118.5606)


That looks about right on the MarineTraffic history...

Edit: the vessel time immediately South of the Coronado Island is approximately 3:40

#373 Aviator

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:25 PM

Several posts have mentioned crews overhearing radio calls between the "Aegean" and a ship, and have also noted that the "Aegean" hailed the vessel by name. However, no one has mentioned what that name was.

Anyone on here from the race that overheard the radio transmissions and can comment on any vessel names they heard?

#374 positivenrj

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:32 PM

Click on 4/29 http://marinetraffic...spx?imo=9273624
View http://marinetraffic...&MMSI=538002284
http://marinetraffic...&MMSI=538002284

4/29

The track on google.



Attached File  ship.JPG   177.73K   194 downloads

#375 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:40 PM

Just as a quick diversionary aside, any of you guys think that the Coast Guard or anyone else in the maritime collision/insurance/COLREGs/litigation/law enforcement/lawyering/Navy/international-judicial-branches-of-whatever read our shit here?.....

#376 DRIFTW00D

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:45 PM


This short was shot there last year. Similar ship to the OVERSEAS ARIADMAR.




Uploaded by bbaker777 on Aug 28, 2011


Rosarito Beach Mexico Sunset



#377 I'moutahere

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:45 PM

Who will likely be the authority investigating this. USCG or a Mexican authority? Given that it appears to have happened in Mexican waters.

#378 mustang__1

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:46 PM

can AIS be configured to show only boats headed somewhat at you? not necessarily collision course, but at least filter out boats that are moving away or are no way going to be closing in your position? Just thinking aloud, but it could help cut down on the clutter in busy areas.

#379 Bitter Gnat

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:47 PM

Photo in this article shows salvaged piece with name on it. Don't think that was a run in with a rock.

http://www.latitude3...date=2012-04-30

#380 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:49 PM

Who will likely be the authority investigating this. USCG or a Mexican authority? Given that it appears to have happened in Mexican waters.



Might depend on if Aegean was a U.S. documented vessel or not....

#381 Great Red Shark

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:50 PM

On the Rocks - from the Front Page....

That wouldn't seem to make any sense at all.... wasn't the wind very light ? - so the boat would presumably be moving slowly, right ? Hardly seems like the sort of kenetic energy to shatter a modern composite hull in a few hours.

#382 Whisper

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:50 PM

Just as a quick diversionary aside, any of you guys think that the Coast Guard or anyone else in the maritime collision/insurance/COLREGs/litigation/law enforcement/lawyering/Navy/international-judicial-branches-of-whatever read our shit here?.....


Yes.

Because the rampant speculation is a nice diversion from the actual facts, "nuthin' but the facts, ma'am," daily grind.

#383 prof_mariner

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:50 PM

From the SA front page:

From a reliable source, we are hearing that the stricken yacht Aegean, which had four people killed in a terrible mishap, may have actually run into the Coronado Islands, and not been run down by a large vessel as originally thought.


Any further info on this?

#384 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

On the Rocks - from the Front Page....

That wouldn't seem to make any sense at all.... wasn't the wind very light ? - so the boat would presumably be moving slowly, right ? Hardly seems like the sort of kenetic energy to shatter a modern composite hull in a few hours.



It either went thru a wood chipper....or a huge prop. Ya just can't make plate size pieces out of a 25,000 lb. boat with anything else....

#385 DryArmour

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:53 PM

Photo in this article shows salvaged piece with name on it. Don't think that was a run in with a rock.

http://www.latitude38.com/lectronic/lectronicday.lasso?date=2012-04-30


The Farallones accident was in big breeze, significant swell and chop and in an area that has strong currents and shear rock faces. Even after several days the boat was substantially in tact if the photographs were at all indicative of the situation. This is a boat that spent hours (I believe) being pummeled against the shore in heavy conditions.

The wind and sea state for N2E was tranquil in comparison and I simply do not find it possible that there was the kind of damage reported to the vessel or her crew given the conditions at the time. My best guess is a run in with a very large ship and an engine that wouldn't start. This is strictly conjecture but is the only logical explanation I am able to come up with based on what I have seen so far.

Condolences to the families and all who knew the crew. God speed to them all.

#386 mike448

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:55 PM

I am just a bit surprised that as an organized event, the race officials didn't seem to know how many souls were aboard the yacht. I would have thought that everyone would have had to submit crew lists and next of kin contact lists as part of the entry.

#387 DA-WOODY

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:55 PM

Just as a quick diversionary aside, any of you guys think that the Coast Guard or anyone else in the maritime collision/insurance/COLREGs/litigation/law enforcement/lawyering/Navy/international-judicial-branches-of-whatever read our shit here?.....


NOT at Work Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#388 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:57 PM

I am just a bit surprised that as an organized event, the race officials didn't seem to know how many souls were aboard the yacht. I would have thought that everyone would have had to submit crew lists and next of kin contact lists as part of the entry.




And a basic fuking float plan?.....

#389 'moondance44

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:59 PM

From the SA front page:

From a reliable source, we are hearing that the stricken yacht Aegean, which had four people killed in a terrible mishap, may have actually run into the Coronado Islands, and not been run down by a large vessel as originally thought.


Any further info on this?

'
Reliable' and this place? come on man.

#390 Whisper

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:00 PM

Hard to imagine they hit the rocks--with three tethered on deck??? You'd think there would be at least one eyeball open and pointed forward. And in those weather conditions, the hull would be pretty much intact, even if they were motoring 3x hull speed! I don't buy it.

#391 ccruiser

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

can AIS be configured to show only boats headed somewhat at you? not necessarily collision course, but at least filter out boats that are moving away or are no way going to be closing in your position? Just thinking aloud, but it could help cut down on the clutter in busy areas.

You can put in a guard zone, so that it will only sound an alarm if a vessel's CPA falls within that zone. Will not filter out other vessels, but frankly not that many sailboats have AIS type B, as yet, but its building. Roaring pain in the ass imho who wants to know about a 30' sailboat, what I am interested in is ships. Given that someone called the ship by name that would seem to lead to the conclusion that whoever called had AIS.

#392 tawgley

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:11 PM

Couldn't imagine a more unpleasant critter aboard a boat than a chihuahua...well, maybe a tarantula. If a tarantula barked.

But really, screw AIS, Radar and flim flam flarn......what is it about looking down and staring at a brightly lit screen trying to make sense of blips that makes people think that is a good safety solution? On a calm clear night? And can you imagine if all 200 sailboats were also sending out blips. The screen would look like the 4th of July.

Get your head out of the boat and look around. Often.

Aegean from all reports was a good, competent boat with a good, competent crew. Something awful happened for no currently understandable reason.


While I couldn't agree more that looking around is a good idea, it doesn't always work ... was sailing the Windjammer (SF-Santa Cruz) a few years ago just after dark around Davenport we were under chute, all crew on deck and suddenly the foredeck started yelling jibe, jibe now .. we did and just missed a roughly 300' freighter moving north completely dark and very little noise ... they don't always display lights and they don't always respond to AIS, radar or anything else .. not saying that's the case here but it's possible ....

#393 tls

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:15 PM




Well, no one can promise that stupid suits won't be filed, but you can promise that there won't be a judgment for the plaintiff. What, exactly, would be the grounds of the suit? Are you assuming that Orange County small claims court has jurisdiction over events in international waters? You realize that Admiralty law explicitly indemnified all parties that are not directly involved in the cause of the collision. Can you outline a basis for a lawsuit against NOSA that could be heard in state court?


OC small claims court? Ahhhhhh.......

The action could be for wrongful death. The issue would be whether or not NOSA was negligent.

(more silliness deleted )

So, those might be the positions taken by an avaricious attorney. Do not confuse those positions with my personal position, and send me angry messages, as I am an Ayn Rand disciple. And I did not vote for BHO.

The question remains, what will now be the fate of the Ensenada Race? Gird your loins, NOSA, and call your D & O policy holder. The sharks are circling.


At the risk of feeding the troll... You do not understand how losses from maritime accidents are handled in the legal system. All of the damages from the accident itself, including all compensation for accidental loss of life, must be handled through Admiralty law. By federal law, and international treaty, you cannot sue for additional damages from the accident in state or federal court. NOSA cannot be held liable for "wrongful death" unless a admiralty court assigns them a proportion of blame in causing the accident -- which is infinitely unlikely given how these courts determine liability. To the extent that you could successfully sue NOSA it would need to be for losses/damage that did not occur on the water (some place where the state courts would have jurisdiction). Thus my joke about Orange Co small claims court. The whole point of Admiralty Law is to prevent having every little court in every jurisdiction apply their own standard for liability and damages.

#394 I'moutahere

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:19 PM

There is talk of a "debris field". How much debris and what? Hunters are fibrelgass hull. sandwich deck. Mostly fibreglass interior with wood trim. Glass does not float unless there is a sandwich construction. Cushions, doors, PFDs, bunk locker lids. Not much else will float.

Hit the island and broke up? To create a "debris field" could take several days pounding, and it appears that while there was a swell, there was not much wind waves so that's unlikely. The keel & engine & parts of the hull & rig would be at the island if it broke up there.

Run down by a ship of some kind? Likely. Little or no wind. Crew on watch might have dozed off at the wrong time. If it went thru the prop it would have had to have been hit dead centre & gone down the length of the ships centreline and maybe hung upon something to have been chopped up as much as it is said to have been. Yachts that have been run down by ships seem to get swept down the side and clear of the prop, even if they do sink later.

#395 R Booze

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

Hard to imagine they hit the rocks--with three tethered on deck??? You'd think there would be at least one eyeball open and pointed forward. And in those weather conditions, the hull would be pretty much intact, even if they were motoring 3x hull speed! I don't buy it.


Agreed. Ramming a light bulb into a rock? Yeah. But a flexi-ish Hunter hull? Nope, can't see that one happening. Unless they were doing 30 knots--- like two guys I knew in San Diego did years ago when they found North Coronado island the hard way after midnight with four paying passengers aboard. Boat was a gorgeous woody sportfisher (Egg Harbour?). Bad juu-juu happens when you mix auto pilots, crystal meth and saltwater. Boat dropped in less than two minutes. They were plucked out of the water within three hours & tthey all survived. The next day they sent another boat with some divers on it to see what they could salvage. Out of 46' (?) of wooden boat, all they found of value near the steep underwatery rock they hit were a half dozen rods with their new Penn Intl's on them. Everything else that was heavy slid down into a mini canyon, and everything that floated, floated away. After failing a drug test, I think the CG yanked Tony's licence for three years after that...but I would have pulled it for life. Fuking moron....

#396 Innocent Bystander

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:22 PM

I am just a bit surprised that as an organized event, the race officials didn't seem to know how many souls were aboard the yacht. I would have thought that everyone would have had to submit crew lists and next of kin contact lists as part of the entry.



Ever had a last second drop out and failed to update your crew list submitted a few weeks prior? hate to admit it but I have.

#397 pipsqueak

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:29 PM


On the Rocks - from the Front Page....

That wouldn't seem to make any sense at all.... wasn't the wind very light ? - so the boat would presumably be moving slowly, right ? Hardly seems like the sort of kenetic energy to shatter a modern composite hull in a few hours.



It either went thru a wood chipper....or a huge prop. Ya just can't make plate size pieces out of a 25,000 lb. boat with anything else....



so many variables does not lessen the grief of the family and friends, but answers do (potentially) help everyone.
anyone who puts to sea knows the risk and that should be a comfort to those on shore. that sailors feel it worth the risk..

re small pieces:
even a finicky cooker could possibly do the same?
friends once described a shrimper that exploded from propane as 'match sticks'.
(that particular incident was rumored to be an intentional scuttle).

the worst time i ever had at sea was without a radio, in no wind with no motor with a cruise ship bearing down on us.
40 miles east of st croix sandbar in the stupid traffic gps crossroads and current vortex..doing donuts in the dark. becalmed.
i actually said 'goodbye' to the dogs. it was hopeless. what could i do? paddle?
i blinked the big flashlight on the mainsail.

the cruise ship flashed its lights on and off three times at me.
every light on the ship. every stateroom.
i burst out crying when they went past.

#398 kuri

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:32 PM

Before we start blaming tankers too much, I was out there too and the boat I was sailing on had a tanker slow and go behind us. They did not try to contact us nor give us any horns, they just slowed, let us cross and then accelerated. We were very visible with a radar reflector up at the top of the mast and our tricolor instead of the deck navigation lights. And check the link below:

http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

Please remember to tell your loved ones and friends how much you love and appreciate them whenever you can. My condolences to the families of the sailors we have lost.


#399 JRC808

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:34 PM

Can someone get a plot of where the vessel Aegean's tracker stopped sending data? With the fairly benign conditions out there and the decent visibility, the idea of finding where a giant rock is and further crashing into bits and pieces seems rather far-fetched to mee. I would think that a collision with another vessel would be much much more plausible...

edit: Oops, upon checking out the link above I wonder if someone decided to leave the auto pilot on and take a nap, damn.
btw: I had a similar experience on a couple of catalina trips, where they would definitely slow while we crossed their path.

#400 Pappy

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:44 PM

Before we start blaming tankers too much, I was out there too and the boat I was sailing on had a tanker slow and go behind us.  They did not try to contact us nor give us any horns, they just slowed, let us cross and then accelerated.  We were very visible with a radar reflector up at the top of the mast and our tricolor instead of the deck navigation lights. And check the link below:

http://share.findmes...eoelyfYAx2eVZzF

Please remember to tell your loved ones and friends how much you love and appreciate them whenever you can.  My condolences to the families of the sailors we have lost.


Could the Spot transponder have drifted down on to North Coronado after the Aegean was struck (assuming that's what happened)?  I'm not sure about the current/wind at the time.  But damn, that Spot track does give credence to the 'hit the rocks' theory.  (Total aside: Spot's slogan on that page makes me a little queasy.)  

Condolences to the families no matter what happened.




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