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3 dead in N2E


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#1 re-psycled

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:38 AM

Just saw on the news 3 dead on the race??
This is really strange. debris in the water. 3 dead floating crewmembers. NO explosion. No distress call. 10 am when reported near the Coronado's.
I can only think run over by a cruz ship??

#2 walterbshaffer

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:42 AM

Just saw on the news 3 dead on the race??
This is really strange. debris in the water. 3 dead floating crewmembers. NO explosion. No distress call. 10 am when reported near the Coronado's.
I can only think run over by a cruz ship??


Boat was Aegean, a Hunter 376.

Maybe a whale? You sure about no explosion or just guessing? I've not heard that.

#3 NoStrings

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:43 AM

Just saw on the news 3 dead on the race??
This is really strange. debris in the water. 3 dead floating crewmembers. NO explosion. No distress call. 10 am when reported near the Coronado's.
I can only think run over by a cruz ship??


This really sucks...standing by. Are you sure...could it have been a propane explosion?

#4 I'moutahere

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:53 AM

News link

#5 re-psycled

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:54 AM

There had to be 20 or 30 boats around within a few miles. Somebody would have seen and explosion or some smoke I would think? A whale would give you time to grab the radio or a flare. If it was sinking it would take some time you would think.
Seems like a collision or they motored strait into the north island?

#6 ProaSailor

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:00 AM

3 dead, 1 missing in mishap during yacht race

(04-28) 22:51 PDT LOS ANGELES (AP) --

Three crew members of a sailboat were found dead and a fourth person was missing Saturday after their yacht ran into trouble during a race off the coasts of California and Mexico.

The 37-foot Aegean was participating in the 125-mile Newport, Calif. to Ensenada, Mexico, yacht race when vessels near the Coronado Islands in Mexico reported seeing debris from the sailboat Saturday morning, Coast Guard Petty Officer Henry Dunphy said.

By midafternoon, searchers found the bodies and debris from the Aegean, whose home port is Redondo Beach, Dunphy said.

The Coast Guard said it doesn't know if the yacht was in some sort of wreck and is trying to determine what happened to it.

Dunphy said conditions were fine for sailing, with good visibility and moderate ocean swells of 6-to-8 feet.



#7 rgscpat

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:33 AM

That's a terrible tragedy, especially following the loss of Low Speed Chase. It's also chilling to have that happen in mild conditions, not terribly far offshore, and in the midst of a large fleet.

#8 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:38 AM

ENSENADA, Baja California, Mexico---Newport Ocean Sailing Association (NOSA) officials learned late Saturday that three sailors in their Newport to Ensenada offshore race had died in an apparent collision with a large vessel several miles off the coast near the border.

Theo Mavromatis is the owner and skipper of the sailboat Aegean, a Hunter 376 representing the Little Ships Fleet club, but it was not known if he was one of the victims. A U.S. Coast Guard helicopter led Vessel Assist to two bodies and later retrieved another. None of the bodies had been identified. A crew list was not immediately available, nor was it known how many other crew may have been on the boat, which is usually sailed by five or more persons.

The first indication of the incident was at 1:30 a.m. Saturday when the boat's image vanished from the online race tracking system in place for the race. A Coast Guard search was launched that led to discovery of the boat's wreckage, including the rear transom with the boat's name on it.

An investigation was continuing, but it appeared the damage was not inflicted by an explosion but by a collision with a ship much larger than the 37-foot vessel.

The race started off Newport Beach in mid-day Friday and many boats finished in Ensenada Saturday, with the last ones due in Sunday. Weather conditions were lighter than normal at the time and place of the incident, with boats reporting winds of only 1 or 2 knots.

These would be the first fatalities in the 65-year history of the race, in which as many as 675 boats have competed in 1983 and 213 were entered this year.

Rich Roberts
Press officer
Lexus Newport to Ensenada Yacht Race
richsail@earthlink.net

NOSA: 949.449.4903

#9 isma

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:42 AM

That's a terrible tragedy, especially following the loss of Low Speed Chase. It's also chilling to have that happen in mild conditions, not terribly far offshore, and in the midst of a large fleet.

My thoughts exactly...but waiting on more information. Condolences to all affected.

#10 NoStrings

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:43 AM

YGBSM, someone just ran the fuck over them and didn't even notice? There were sailboats everywhere out there. How could you NOT know?

#11 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:44 AM

How often were the scheds or were there trackers onboard boats?

#12 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:03 AM

How often were the scheds or were there trackers onboard boats?

"..The first indication of the incident was at 1:30 a.m. Saturday when the boat's image vanished from the online race tracking system in place for the race..."

#13 Icedtea

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:34 AM

Jesus that's terrible....

Thinking of everyone involved

#14 sailorwillis

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:40 AM

My Prayers with the families of the lost. This sucks especially after Low Speed Chase. Terrible month for west coast off shore sailing.

#15 saltyokie

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:56 AM

YGBSM, someone just ran the fuck over them and didn't even notice? There were sailboats everywhere out there. How could you NOT know?


I have done Santa Barbara to King harbor and Marina del Rey to San diego more than 2 dozen times. I have had many close encounters with large cargo ships. These races are similar to the Ensenada race in that you cross the steamer lanes at night. Modern container ships are very fast. A sailboat is not a good radar target - if anyone was looking. If even a medium size freighter hit a 37 foot sailboat, they would not know it unless they were keeping a good watch. If they were keeping a good watch they would not hit the boat. I have a Birdell blipper radar reflector high on my mast. The windage is for the birds but it makes me look like a 400 footer.

#16 bheintz

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:53 AM


YGBSM, someone just ran the fuck over them and didn't even notice? There were sailboats everywhere out there. How could you NOT know?


A sailboat is not a good radar target - if anyone was looking. If even a medium size freighter hit a 37 foot sailboat, they would not know it unless they were keeping a good watch. If they were keeping a good watch they would not hit the boat.


One of the reasons the AIS system was developed is as collision avoidance for water transport, because often deck watches are not a vigilant as they should be at 2am and there were (still are) a lot of near-misses with ships.

Unfortunate tragedies like these will probably lead to insurance companies requiring AIS transponders on all boats traveling off shore.

#17 Estar

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:24 AM

This would suck at any time, but so soon after LSC it really sucks.

Jut as a point of information . . . .

Race recommended but did not require ISAF OSR's and had minimal equipment requirements (see below), not including AIS.

But on a boat with at least 5 crew and a night with good weather, I would not think AIS necessary to avoid collision - one would think a good watch would be kept and a collision could be avoided.

The equipment rules were essentially:
1.8 In addition to complying with their class and equipment rules:

1.8.1 All boats shall carry a functioning GPS.

1.8.2 All boats shall comply with Addendum D – Equipment Checklist and Penalties.

1.8.3 All boats shall carry at least two anchors of the size recommended by the anchor’s manufacturer, metal chain and line adequate to hold in adverse weather. Chain will be at least ½ the boat’s length. Line shall be at least 150 feet in length.

1.8.4 All multihulls shall be Ocean Racing Catamaran Association (ORCA) members in good standing.

1.8.5 NOSA recommends that all competitors comply with the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations for Race Category 3 Monohulls with Life Rafts or Race Category 3 Multihulls with Life Rafts. A link to the ISAF Special Regulations, and the ORCA and PHRF Equipment Lists can be found on the NOSA website.



#18 Peenstone

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:29 AM

AIS history of the "large vessel" + race tracker history of Aegean should offer some clues.

#19 mh111

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:31 AM

YGBSM, someone just ran the fuck over them and didn't even notice? There were sailboats everywhere out there. How could you NOT know?

you clearly haven't spent much time keeping watch on the bridge of a ship have you ?

cheers,

#20 R Booth

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:41 AM


YGBSM, someone just ran the fuck over them and didn't even notice? There were sailboats everywhere out there. How could you NOT know?


I have done Santa Barbara to King harbor and Marina del Rey to San diego more than 2 dozen times. I have had many close encounters with large cargo ships. These races are similar to the Ensenada race in that you cross the steamer lanes at night. Modern container ships are very fast. A sailboat is not a good radar target - if anyone was looking. If even a medium size freighter hit a 37 foot sailboat, they would not know it unless they were keeping a good watch. If they were keeping a good watch they would not hit the boat. I have a Birdell blipper radar reflector high on my mast. The windage is for the birds but it makes me look like a 400 footer.



Yup. It's nothing like Hong Kong or Singapore around there, but in that little 60 mile long patch of water between S/Diego & Ensenada there's a helluva lot more boat traffic than some may realize. Military, fishing boats from both countries (both commercial & private), medium sized freighters and large cargo ships, the cruise liners, the tuna corrals, the occasional tug & tow and sometimes just weird ULFO's (unlit floating objects). Night sailing around there is never boring, especially when a lot of the coast is lit up like Vegas. Gotta keep alert and diligent.


This is a very sad & bizarre story for all involved. It'll be very interesting to find out what caused this one......

#21 Bowgirl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 11:53 AM

So sad. Condolences to those who lost their friends/family.

#22 prof_mariner

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:04 PM

Some posters have implied that "many" or a "majority" of ship's bridge personnel often do not maintain a proper lookout. In my nearly 40 years of sea going experience I've found this not to be the case at all. The vast majority of licensed mariners out there take their profession very seriously, regardless of what flag they sail under. It's also my experience that it's the small boat sailors who often fail to stand a proper lookout and rarely take the possibility of a collision at sea seriously. I've met numerous offshore cruisers who don't stand night watches at all, even some who intentionally turn off their running lights to "save power for more important uses". If you ever stood a watch at night on the bridge of a ship you'd realize just how difficult it is to see a small sailboat either visually or with radar.
Further, assuming you are right why then didn't the sailboat operator hail the ship on VHF? Maneuver to avoid the ship? Surely a large ship would be easier to see at night from a small sailboat than the other way around?


I don't know anything more about this particular case than anyone else at this point, but to blatantly assume that the ship's crew was at fault is not in keeping with my experience. We will surely learn more over the up coming days and weeks. Hopefully we will all learn something from this tragic loss of life. My condolences to the families and friends.


#23 No.6

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:07 PM

That's a terrible tragedy, especially following the loss of Low Speed Chase. It's also chilling to have that happen in mild conditions, not terribly far offshore, and in the midst of a large fleet.


There is no safety in numbers. There is only one's self to keep you safe in sailing.

#24 Bowgirl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:13 PM

...because often deck watches are not a vigilant as they should be at 2am and there were (still are) a lot of near-misses with ships.



I take exception with that statement. In my nearly 40 years of sea going experience I've found this not to be the case at all. The vast majority of licensed mariners out there take their profession very seriously, regardless of what flag they sail under. It's also my experience that it's the small boat sailors who often fail to stand a proper lookout and rarely take the possibility of a collision at sea seriously. I've met numerous offshore cruisers who don't stand night watches at all, even some who intentionally turn off their running lights to "save power for more important uses". If you ever stood a watch at night on the bridge of a ship you'd realize just how difficult it is to see a small sailboat either visually or with radar.

Further, assuming you are right why then didn't the sailboat operator hail the ship on VHF? Maneuver to avoid the ship? Surely a large ship would be easier to see at night from a small sailboat than the other way around?


I don't know anything more about this particular case than anyone else at this point, but to blatantly assume that the ship's crew was at fault is not in keeping with my experience. We will surely learn more over the up coming days and weeks. Hopefully we will all learn something from this tragic loss of life. My condolences to the families and friends.


Good point, PM.

Are we all clear that standing watch happens on BOTH vessels? They both have the responsibility to keep clear of each other.

I am not commenting on who/what caused the accident, rather that the majority of statements I'm reading here are about large ships avoiding sailboats. Night-time is no time for complacency when it comes to watches - regardless the size of your vessel.

#25 prof_mariner

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:17 PM

Are we all clear that standing watch happens on BOTH vessels? They both have the responsibility to keep clear of each other.


Exactly right, thank you for making my point better than I was able to. ;)

#26 jhc

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:34 PM

Three questions for PM:

1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night?

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"?

I am sure that at least one of the vessels involved was aware of the collision.

#27 Bowgirl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 12:42 PM

Three questions for PM:

1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH UNKNOWINGLY GO INTO THE PATH OF A LARGE VESSEL AT NIGHT?

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH GET ON THE RADIO WHEN THE LARGER VESSEL WAS SPOTTED?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"? WOULD AN INVESTIGATION INTO AN INCIDENT REGARDING A SHIP AND A SAILBOAT AT NIGHT CONCLUDE THAT THERE WAS A PROPER WATCH KEPT ON BOTH VESSELS?

I am sure that at least one of the vessels involved was aware of the collision. UNFORTUNATELY, YES, THE ONE THAT DIDN'T MAKE IT WAS DEFINITELY AWARE OF THE COLLISION


Balancing questions embedded above.

Let's not jump to any conclusions. The investigation is still under way and I say again, responsibility for keeping watch belongs on both boats. Always.

#28 Polaris

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:17 PM

YGBSM, someone just ran the fuck over them and didn't even notice? There were sailboats everywhere out there. How could you NOT know?


Autohelm?

#29 'moondance44

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:24 PM


YGBSM, someone just ran the fuck over them and didn't even notice? There were sailboats everywhere out there. How could you NOT know?


Autohelm?



A large ship could run over them and yes, never know it happened.
They could also have been keeping watch, have seen them, and not been able to do anything but sound their horn.
Maybe the sailboat tried to cross their bow.
Far too many unknowns now.

#30 saltyokie

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:38 PM

Some posters have implied that "many" or a "majority" of ship's bridge personnel often do not maintain a proper lookout. In my nearly 40 years of sea going experience I've found this not to be the case at all. The vast majority of licensed mariners out there take their profession very seriously, regardless of what flag they sail under. It's also my experience that it's the small boat sailors who often fail to stand a proper lookout and rarely take the possibility of a collision at sea seriously. I've met numerous offshore cruisers who don't stand night watches at all, even some who intentionally turn off their running lights to "save power for more important uses". If you ever stood a watch at night on the bridge of a ship you'd realize just how difficult it is to see a small sailboat either visually or with radar.
Further, assuming you are right why then didn't the sailboat operator hail the ship on VHF? Maneuver to avoid the ship? Surely a large ship would be easier to see at night from a small sailboat than the other way around?


I don't know anything more about this particular case than anyone else at this point, but to blatantly assume that the ship's crew was at fault is not in keeping with my experience. We will surely learn more over the up coming days and weeks. Hopefully we will all learn something from this tragic loss of life. My condolences to the families and friends.


At night during these races, boats like the one lost may only have one or two knots of boat speed and little ability to take evasive action when they realize the ship is headed for them. During one race with a full moon we could see the dreaded equilateral triangle of lights heading for us. Red over here, green over there and two white in the middle. I was in a Cal 25 and it was clear the ship did not see us. We shone two flashlights on the main and the ship changed course and just missed us. Our boat speed - one knot.

#31 Estar

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

I know it can be done but I don't know how . . . can anyone here pull/display the AIS tracks off marinetraffic.com for last night?

#32 Nigel Texas

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:42 PM

There is a press release posted on the race website. Here is a link to the site. Click the first button beneath the scrolling banner to get back to the press release link.

http://www.nosa.org/

Attached File  ens12aegean.pdf   41.95K   233 downloads

#33 Nigel Texas

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:44 PM

The press release attachment is from 4/29/12 at 8:30 CDT. Sorry that got left off my post.

#34 jhc

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 01:55 PM


Three questions for PM:

1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH UNKNOWINGLY GO INTO THE PATH OF A LARGE VESSEL AT NIGHT?

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH GET ON THE RADIO WHEN THE LARGER VESSEL WAS SPOTTED?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"? WOULD AN INVESTIGATION INTO AN INCIDENT REGARDING A SHIP AND A SAILBOAT AT NIGHT CONCLUDE THAT THERE WAS A PROPER WATCH KEPT ON BOTH VESSELS?

I am sure that at least one of the vessels involved was aware of the collision. UNFORTUNATELY, YES, THE ONE THAT DIDN'T MAKE IT WAS DEFINITELY AWARE OF THE COLLISION


Balancing questions embedded above.

Let's not jump to any conclusions. The investigation is still under way and I say again, responsibility for keeping watch belongs on both boats. Always.


Are you aware of how idiotic you appear? Writing over, and altering my questions with your all cap drivel is inexcusable. I was not addressing this to you.

I will make the assumption that the sailboat was not endangering the ship, by it's actions.

The ship's crew however, will be shown to have reckless disregard for the lives of the lost crew of the sailboat.

My condolence to the families, and friends, of the lost crew of Aegean.

#35 Marvin

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 02:06 PM

I know it can be done but I don't know how . . . can anyone here pull/display the AIS tracks off marinetraffic.com for last night?


Evan, you can click on individual vessels in the area and select "Show Vessel's track" from the menu... I am not aware of any other way.

I can't fin the N2E yacht tracking information; was it pulled off the race site?

#36 SailBlueH2O

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 02:13 PM

perhaps a vessel involved in illegal activity..

#37 Point Break

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 02:26 PM

There are many folks here with much more experiance than I so I offer this post with that knowledge. I've had trouble spotting large commercial vessels on some nights while coastal sailing until they were closer than I prefer. I'd have to say in retrospect, it was usually a combo of conditions (very dark) and attention to the horizon. It is amazing how quickly one of those big boys can close with you and I have had to fire up my engine to clear the way several times in light conditions. One thing I have noticed is hailing on VHF is not very successful. I have on many occasions attempted contact and recieved no answer.

All that said, none of those experiances were even remotely close and I'm sure caused me much more anxiety than the watch on the big boy. Also its pretty unlikely the big boys crew is inattentive when approaching a major harbor with much traffic. Having been at sea on the bridge of large naval vessels i can say small boats are not that easy to see and don't paint well on radar especially in a good swell. Its amazing how poorly the little 12 v nav lights on a sailboat can be seen. Of far greater concern to me have been smaller commercial vessels, especially tugs towing barges. The barges are not well lit, and distinguishing between the tug and a fishing boat is not always easy. I've noted some pretty long tow lines and had a closer miss than i would have preferred when crossing aft of the tugs course.

Another interesting point on watch standing. Depending on the crew configuration, we've had enough folks to stand double staffed watches once in a while. I've found I'm more attentive when alone on watch than when on watch with someone else.

#38 Estar

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 02:49 PM

http://shipfinder.co/

This site allows AIS playback from last night. Several cruise ships and cargo ships but they all seem to be well outside the racing track. I don't see any race boats at all - what am I missing - did none of these boats have AIS transmitters?? Or are the Class B's are just too weak to get picked up by this system?Or did they all have their transmitters turned off so as not to give their position away to the competition?

#39 prof_mariner

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:02 PM

At night during these races, boats like the one lost may only have one or two knots of boat speed and little ability to take evasive action when they realize the ship is headed for them. During one race with a full moon we could see the dreaded equilateral triangle of lights heading for us. Red over here, green over there and two white in the middle. I was in a Cal 25 and it was clear the ship did not see us. We shone two flashlights on the main and the ship changed course and just missed us. Our boat speed - one knot.




If in the event of what appears to be a potential collision at sea a "prudent mariner" will do whatever they can and use whatever they have available to prevent said collision. Communicating with the other vessel by VHF, spot lights on the sails, or other means may be effective. But if that fails then surely it makes sense to start up the aux. engine and get the heck out of the way. I've more than once been in a sailboat and in a similar situation and had to alter my course by 90 degrees, started the motor and used full throttle to make sure my boat and crew were out of harms way. I would hope everyone else, given the same situation, would do the same.

#40 BigSquid

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:09 PM

On races and deliveries there is huge amount of warship traffic in that area of the course. On two different occasions when turning and burning home outside the coronados on sunday night we were much closer than I would like with fast, stealthy military boats. Close to that area maybe another 15 miles offshore we had a sub breach within a few hundred feet of us in daylight. I dont have AIS receiver but I wonder if warships broadcast and/or have their courses recorded and posted online.

#41 VwaP

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:10 PM

Submarine


Submarine V. Sailboat



A reader let me know about this blog post from last month, which claims to have a photo of a Spanish submarine sailing very close to a sailboat taking part in a regatta. Excerpt and photo:

It's not a joke. It took place on Friday afternoon, during the 4th leg of the Vuelta España a Vela (Spain Sailing Tour), from Cartagena to Alicante. While the fleet was approaching Alicante, a submarine suddenly surfaced in front of Endesa-Ceuta. The yacht managed to avoid a head on collision but the extent of damages suffered is not clear. Unfortunately, the photo is fuzzy but the photographer, like the rest of the participants, was caught by surprise. Obviously, nobody was expecting to see a submarine surface in front of them...

Posted ImageAs a commenter in the original post points out, it's obvious that the submarine didn't just "surface in front of them"... the bridge is rigged, and they've even got their flag up. Those of us who've ever gone in and out of San Diego (and other ports, I'm sure) know that sailboaters will try to get real close to the submarines to take a picture or whatever. Whenever we left port, it was as likely as not that we'd have to sound the danger signal at some idiot sailboater. Once we even hit one -- reported his dumb ass to the Coast Guard too.

Of course, there was the time back in 1992 that the aircraft carrier steamed out of the fog right into the middle of the America's Cup challenger race off San Diego...



#42 DB Cooper

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:31 PM

My two questions are:
  • Was the Aegean in return mode or racing mode at the time?
  • What were the wind conditions at 1030 in the Coronados?


#43 Morgan Crew

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:35 PM

http://shipfinder.co/

This site allows AIS playback from last night. Several cruise ships and cargo ships but they all seem to be well outside the racing track. I don't see any race boats at all - what am I missing - did none of these boats have AIS transmitters?? Or are the Class B's are just too weak to get picked up by this system?Or did they all have their transmitters turned off so as not to give their position away to the competition?


At this time AIS shows a Mexican SAR vessel, MLB101, doing some type of a search pattern at about N32 20' W117 15' or about 6NM SW from Rosarito, Mexico


Source: http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/

#44 Editor

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:38 PM

there had to have been almost no wind. before we withdrew, we were doing triple zero's at around that time for at least an hour. we were surely further down the track, but i think the wind shut off for almost everyone. if a big boat comes steaming along, you are a sitting duck. And where we were, there were almost no boats around us - you could have a mishap and no one would even know.....

#45 sailingk8

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:47 PM

Frightening situation. My condolences to the families involved.

#46 jrw1621

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:50 PM

http://shipfinder.co/

This site allows AIS playback from last night. Several cruise ships and cargo ships but they all seem to be well outside the racing track. I don't see any race boats at all - what am I missing - did none of these boats have AIS transmitters?? Or are the Class B's are just too weak to get picked up by this system?Or did they all have their transmitters turned off so as not to give their position away to the competition?


I have not been to this site given above before but have fumbled through it a little there is a vessel named the CMA CGM Rose that seems to have left Long Beach, headed due south along the coast till it got to the Mx boarder at about 1:30 am then went hard to starboard changing course about 45 degrees to the west. It seems to have remained on this course and is headed to Auckland at 17kts.

I have no idea if this is related but thought that maybe some with more knowledge of the website could expand on this.

Thoughts and prayers to all the crew and family.

#47 opusone

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:54 PM

Returned from Mexico last Night. Very sad to wake up to this terrible news.

I can only comment on the conditions where we were, 25 - 30 miles offshore and a little south of the Coronados and it was a clear, star filled night. Light swells, 3 - 5 knots of breeze and we could see running lights from our competitors at least a mile or better. A cruise ship went by and we could follow their lights for a long time.

Visibility was very good Friday Night/Saturday Morning for us. May have been different closer to shore.

My condolences to the family and friends of those lost. Back to back fatal sailing events is rocking our household to the core... It really makes me think about what additional precautions I can make so my crew is safer and more prepared for any unforeseen incidents. We will have AIS on the next boat, along with PLB's, etc.

Cheers,

opusone

#48 unShirley

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 03:55 PM

Are we all clear that standing watch happens on BOTH vessels? They both have the responsibility to keep clear of each other.


Exactly right, thank you for making my point better than I was able to. ;)


I am trying to imagine drifting along in 1 - 2 kts of wind and all of sudden seeing a ship or larger commercial fishing vessel bearing down on me at 15 -25 kts of speed. Evasive action by the sailboat may have been close to impossible. How long does it take to turn on the engine and get her up to a blazing 6 kts? How long does it take to raise a ship on VHF? I'm thinking too long in this case. Here in Ventucky at least 2x in the last 10 or 15 yrs commercial fishing vessels have run aground on either side of the harbor because the operator fell asleep with the autopilot on...

But, I plead guilty to speculation and conjecture. I wait in suspense to find out what really happened.

#49 DiasDePlaya

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:03 PM

Don't point your spot light to the sails, point directly in the ship face. The light is very more visible this way than reflected by the sails!

#50 Marvin

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:14 PM

http://shipfinder.co/

This site allows AIS playback from last night. Several cruise ships and cargo ships but they all seem to be well outside the racing track. I don't see any race boats at all - what am I missing - did none of these boats have AIS transmitters?? Or are the Class B's are just too weak to get picked up by this system?Or did they all have their transmitters turned off so as not to give their position away to the competition?


I'm guessing that most pleasure crafts involved in the race would only be equipped with an AIS receiver if anything...

Also, I believe (hopefully someone can provide more accurate insight) that AIS Class A devices transmit at 12 watts, while Class B devices only transmit at 2 watts; the transmission frequency is also much less (every 30 seconds...) and it includes much less details about the vessel.

#51 One eye Jack

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:16 PM

OMG this has been a terrible month for racing...It almost sounds like a ship collision...Some of the forgien ships at sea have 1 person on watch...and want to save wear and tear on their radar by turning it off....But you would think being this close to shore..less than a hundred miles...from what I have read..there wasn't an explosion..as the found debris would have some kind of scorched or burned marks on them... What about some activity with a sub? I know when you rounded pt conception...they used to have warnings about them on the charts...Another sad day..and now why?

#52 coyotepup

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:17 PM

On races and deliveries there is huge amount of warship traffic in that area of the course. On two different occasions when turning and burning home outside the coronados on sunday night we were much closer than I would like with fast, stealthy military boats. Close to that area maybe another 15 miles offshore we had a sub breach within a few hundred feet of us in daylight. I dont have AIS receiver but I wonder if warships broadcast and/or have their courses recorded and posted online.

I believe if it was a military vessel - a US one anyway - we'd already know about it. They don't generally post their locations and courses online, no, but in or near US waters like this they're very visible and very public. The media would be on it faster than you can imagine if it were a collision with a Navy ship.

#53 movable ballast

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:22 PM

Wow not again... to close to home, to short a period between the LSC loss. Condolences to the families, terible just terible.

#54 ccruiser

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:33 PM

On races and deliveries there is huge amount of warship traffic in that area of the course. On two different occasions when turning and burning home outside the coronados on sunday night we were much closer than I would like with fast, stealthy military boats. Close to that area maybe another 15 miles offshore we had a sub breach within a few hundred feet of us in daylight. I dont have AIS receiver but I wonder if warships broadcast and/or have their courses recorded and posted online.

Sometimes they do, most times they do not in my experience.

#55 Hank

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:46 PM

there had to have been almost no wind. before we withdrew, we were doing triple zero's at around that time for at least an hour. we were surely further down the track, but i think the wind shut off for almost everyone. if a big boat comes steaming along, you are a sitting duck. And where we were, there were almost no boats around us - you could have a mishap and no one would even know.....


The boat was in the cruising division, so at that time they were most likely motoring when the incident occurred.

:-(

#56 steve0kelly

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:47 PM

Sad prayers to the families...How can you hit a 36' boat and not know? was no one on watch? what large ships were in the area.

#57 DoRag

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:56 PM


On races and deliveries there is huge amount of warship traffic in that area of the course. On two different occasions when turning and burning home outside the coronados on sunday night we were much closer than I would like with fast, stealthy military boats. Close to that area maybe another 15 miles offshore we had a sub breach within a few hundred feet of us in daylight. I dont have AIS receiver but I wonder if warships broadcast and/or have their courses recorded and posted online.

I believe if it was a military vessel - a US one anyway - we'd already know about it. They don't generally post their locations and courses online, no, but in or near US waters like this they're very visible and very public. The media would be on it faster than you can imagine if it were a collision with a Navy ship.


Indeed you would know about it. Fact is, subs are restricted from surfacing anywhere near boat lanes in SD. They had that hassle years ago and just don't want to repeat it.

Next, The Navy is clearly aware of the dates of races like this and they are fully aware that many inexperienced wing nuts are on the water. Accordingly, no CO would want to risk his career, if nothing else, by tempting fate to hold an exercise during these events.

So, no. The US Navy is highly unlikely to be the cause of this debacle.

#58 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:56 PM

SB to KH one year there was little to no wind off of Anacapa and a freighter came through. It passed about 50 ft from us splitting down the middle of a small group of boats, pretty scary.

#59 kgw

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 04:57 PM

I have the first edition SH 2100 vhf with ais receiver built in, and the first time I turned on the ais was in L.A. harbor, with a 2-mile alarm radius: with 4 ships showing, the alarm was incessant. For commercial traffic, ais is good; don't know about submarines or fast private vessels...

Take good care out there, and my heart goes out to those who lost family and friends.

#60 masameet

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:13 PM

If a military vessel or a container ship is ruled out, could the Aegean then have been run down by a mega yacht?

#61 vdm

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:27 PM

Were there trackers in this race?
No evidence or link to tracking on the N2E website.

#62 Rollmaster2000

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 05:27 PM

I just returned home from crewing with Staghound on the N2E, and was shocked to hear about this news this morning. Especially since it was such a calm race all night. We saw no more than 5 knots of breeze, and the moon was keeping things pretty visible out. On my shifts I remember seeing 2 cruise ships, but they were very visible with all of their lights.

My condolences to the families of the lives lost.

#63 Winky

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:13 PM

This is a hard month. Being out there at night with shipping is not easy. Daytime can be sporty also. SoCal has a lot of converging lanes plus barge traffic, fishing, cruise, etc. On more than one occasion, it took me a while to identify WHAT I was looking at and WHERE is was going. Only then did I do a course/speed change. Also, once a ship drops off it's pilot on departure, it's pedal to the metal. It speculation now. It might not have been a ship. There's a lot of take away lessons here.

#64 Bowgirl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:13 PM



Three questions for PM:

1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH UNKNOWINGLY GO INTO THE PATH OF A LARGE VESSEL AT NIGHT?

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance? WOULD A SAILBOAT WITH A PROPER WATCH GET ON THE RADIO WHEN THE LARGER VESSEL WAS SPOTTED?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"? WOULD AN INVESTIGATION INTO AN INCIDENT REGARDING A SHIP AND A SAILBOAT AT NIGHT CONCLUDE THAT THERE WAS A PROPER WATCH KEPT ON BOTH VESSELS?

I am sure that at least one of the vessels involved was aware of the collision. UNFORTUNATELY, YES, THE ONE THAT DIDN'T MAKE IT WAS DEFINITELY AWARE OF THE COLLISION


Balancing questions embedded above.

Let's not jump to any conclusions. The investigation is still under way and I say again, responsibility for keeping watch belongs on both boats. Always.


Are you aware of how idiotic you appear? Writing over, and altering my questions with your all cap drivel is inexcusable. I was not addressing this to you.

I will make the assumption that the sailboat was not endangering the ship, by it's actions.

The ship's crew however, will be shown to have reckless disregard for the lives of the lost crew of the sailboat.

My condolence to the families, and friends, of the lost crew of Aegean.


To be clear, I did not alter or overwrite your questions, I merely added balancing questions to round out the investigative reasoning, and used caps to differentiate my inputs from yours.

Let's consider your questions, as stand-alones, then, shall we?
1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night?
Um... let me think ... trick question, I'm sure ... uh ... Yes, Sir, I believe a ship with a proper watch would (and has) unknowingly run down a sailboat at night. In ±2008 there was a small sailing vessel run down/over by a commercial vessel off the UK coast. Same questions. I wish I could find the investigative report - I pored over it because I was aghast that no one stopped to render assistance, that it even happened .. and this was on a delivery, not a race, so the decision to turn on the engine wasn't a big dilemma. I'll look for the report. I hope I PDF'd it.

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance?
Unless the ship with proper watch was engaged in illegal activity (an unheard-of occurrence on the west coast), it would indeed stop to render assistance to a boat that it had knowingly hit, with its proper watch in place. No mariner knowingly strands another mariner ... or was this a trick question?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"?
The answer to this question would depend upon the findings of the investigation, and I for one am content to wait for the results of the investigation, having read the report I referred to in Q1, which indeed found the larger vessel did maintain proper watch. It was extremely informative as to the "blind spots" created by the angle from the bridge to the water.


I'm ok with being labelled or appearing an idiot for asking too many questions, rather than asking too few, jhc.

#65 amperrin

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:20 PM

AIS transpond and recieve IMHO made our race round Britain and Ireland so much safer and in fact faster! We were able to see the commercial traffic on our computer call them by name instead of vessel in xxxx positionn. Several times they initiated the call to us telling us they would be passing close on our starboard side or port side and the distance off. Decreased the stress level considerably and meant we weren't sailing slower while worried about dodging tankers in the Dover Straits. There were over 150 ships around us when we went throught the straits.

I also put a white collision flare at the companion way of the boats I prepare so if a ship is too close for comfort you can easily grab it and set it off.

Not saying these things would have done anything in this incident as we don't know exactly what happened.

#66 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:37 PM

Someone should point out to HardOnWind that this sort of potential is why the RRS defers to the IRPCAS at night.
(Referring to this thread: http://forums.sailin...howtopic=133806 )
You can't wait till 4 boatlenghts and try to 'take up' a ship...

Hopefully there will be definitive answers to what happened.
Condolences to the families and friends.

#67 Bowgirl

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:39 PM

To be clear, I did not alter or overwrite your questions, I merely added balancing questions to round out the investigative reasoning, and used caps to differentiate my inputs from yours.

Let's consider your questions, as stand-alones, then, shall we?
1)Would a ship with a proper watch unknowingly run down a sailboat at night?
Um... let me think ... trick question, I'm sure ... uh ... Yes, Sir, I believe a ship with a proper watch would (and has) unknowingly run down a sailboat at night. In ±2008 there was a small sailing vessel run down/over by a commercial vessel off the UK coast. Same questions. I wish I could find the investigative report - I pored over it because I was aghast that no one stopped to render assistance, that it even happened .. and this was on a delivery, not a race, so the decision to turn on the engine wasn't a big dilemma. I'll look for the report. I hope I PDF'd it.

2)Would a ship with a proper watch that ran over a sailboat at night, stop to render assistance?
Unless the ship with proper watch was engaged in illegal activity (an unheard-of occurrence on the west coast), it would indeed stop to render assistance to a boat that it had knowingly hit, with its proper watch in place. No mariner knowingly strands another mariner ... or was this a trick question?

3)Would an investigation into an incident regarding a ship that ran down a sailboat at night conclude that there was a "proper watch"?
The answer to this question would depend upon the findings of the investigation, and I for one am content to wait for the results of the investigation, having read the report I referred to in Q1, which indeed found the larger vessel did maintain proper watch. It was extremely informative as to the "blind spots" created by the angle from the bridge to the water.


I'm ok with being labelled or appearing an idiot for asking too many questions, rather than asking too few, jhc.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/2007/ouzo.cfm

Link to the report I referred to in my post above. My mistake, it was 2006, not "±2008".

And the SA discussion about it: http://forums.sailin...showtopic=40368

#68 Luminary Crush

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:44 PM

I sail out of King Harbor and have seen this boat around though don't know the owner or regular crew. It's a tragedy we'll have to have another day of the flag at half mast so soon after the recent accident at the Farallones. Was that Hunter really sailing with only 4 souls? Normally I'd imagine more crew onboard....but let's hope they were going light this year.

I've seen some things on the offshore race course that after what happened just now makes one wonder if we are lucky this doens't occur more often, such a tug pulling a barge with a long cut-your-mast-off tow cable go right through a race course in the shipping lane off Santa Barbara. I'd hate to run into that late at night. This makes me want to consider an AIS transceiver on my boat... and be sure I have a proper spotlight for signaling on board. After the Low Speed Chase disaster and now this it's feeling like a wake-up call.

Additionally, just yesterday I was racing on a friend's boat and the life line gave way, sending the owner into the water. Luckily it was light wind, low chop and close to the race committee boat...but it still took some time to drop the spinnaker, get back upwind and pick him up ... that could have happened at any moment, inshore during the day, or offshore at night.

I'm certainly going to be rethinking ALL our safety gear and procedures after the events of the past couple of weeks.

My sympathies to the family and friends of the crew of Aegean.

#69 ProaSailor

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:45 PM

I have not been to this site given above before but have fumbled through it a little there is a vessel named the CMA CGM Rose that seems to have left Long Beach, headed due south along the coast till it got to the Mx boarder at about 1:30 am then went hard to starboard changing course about 45 degrees to the west. It seems to have remained on this course and is headed to Auckland at 17kts.

I have no idea if this is related but thought that maybe some with more knowledge of the website could expand on this.


http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/shipdetails.aspx?mmsi=636091210
http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=636091210&zoom=10&olddate=lastknown (map)

Posted Image

#70 vsecret

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:55 PM

http://www.examiner....theo-mavromatis

another article - so very sorry for the friends/family and sailing community --

#71 saltyokie

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:59 PM

At night during these races, boats like the one lost may only have one or two knots of boat speed and little ability to take evasive action when they realize the ship is headed for them. During one race with a full moon we could see the dreaded equilateral triangle of lights heading for us. Red over here, green over there and two white in the middle. I was in a Cal 25 and it was clear the ship did not see us. We shone two flashlights on the main and the ship changed course and just missed us. Our boat speed - one knot.



If in the event of what appears to be a potential collision at sea a "prudent mariner" will do whatever they can and use whatever they have available to prevent said collision. Communicating with the other vessel by VHF, spot lights on the sails, or other means may be effective. But if that fails then surely it makes sense to start up the aux. engine and get the heck out of the way. I've more than once been in a sailboat and in a similar situation and had to alter my course by 90 degrees, started the motor and used full throttle to make sure my boat and crew were out of harms way. I would hope everyone else, given the same situation, would do the same.


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.

#72 Mephisto Cat

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:09 PM

Where was Russell Perdock on the night in question?

#73 rgscpat

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:11 PM

I have no idea whether this could have helped anyone, but if a competing boat was caught with no wind, no motor on the transom (in the case of an outboard) or other motor difficulties, would it have possibly helped to have displayed lights for a vessel restricted in maneuverability, and to have made a securite broadcast of her position?

#74 CruiserJim

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:13 PM

Damn, again. My thoughts and prayers are with the crew's loved ones.

I sail out of Long Beach and commercial traffic is always a challenge. I remember approaching Ensenada back in the 77 race at O-dark-30. Somehow we figured out we were heading between an unlit tug and an unlit barge. Just luck that we were able to perceive the shadows against the ambient light. We did a 180 and got out of there. Have no idea how close they passed. Hope it can be figured out what happened here.

#75 jrw1621

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:32 PM

http://www.google.co...15921a72d5a4770

AP article states collision suspected.

Another with eerie start photo.
http://alisoviejo.pa...g#photo-9758506

#76 DoRag

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:33 PM


At night during these races, boats like the one lost may only have one or two knots of boat speed and little ability to take evasive action when they realize the ship is headed for them. During one race with a full moon we could see the dreaded equilateral triangle of lights heading for us. Red over here, green over there and two white in the middle. I was in a Cal 25 and it was clear the ship did not see us. We shone two flashlights on the main and the ship changed course and just missed us. Our boat speed - one knot.



If in the event of what appears to be a potential collision at sea a "prudent mariner" will do whatever they can and use whatever they have available to prevent said collision. Communicating with the other vessel by VHF, spot lights on the sails, or other means may be effective. But if that fails then surely it makes sense to start up the aux. engine and get the heck out of the way. I've more than once been in a sailboat and in a similar situation and had to alter my course by 90 degrees, started the motor and used full throttle to make sure my boat and crew were out of harms way. I would hope everyone else, given the same situation, would do the same.


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


So, it's the middle of night, becalmed on the ocean, in a major traffic lane.....and....wait for it....your engine is down below?

This type of mentality does not belong offshore in a yacht race.

#77 opusone

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:45 PM

I just returned home from crewing with Staghound on the N2E, and was shocked to hear about this news this morning. Especially since it was such a calm race all night. We saw no more than 5 knots of breeze, and the moon was keeping things pretty visible out. On my shifts I remember seeing 2 cruise ships, but they were very visible with all of their lights.

My condolences to the families of the lives lost.


We saw you guys Saturday Morning with It's OK. We did not hear anything about the incident while at the Coral in Ensenada. No reports whatsoever. I left for the boarder at about 4 pm Saturday Afternoon. Seems to me that the race organizers should have known something by then and informed the competitors, to at the very least inquire if anyone may have seen or heard anything on the VHF, etc.

Cheers,

opusone

#78 afterguy

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:50 PM

Anyone implying that a large ship must not have been standing a proper watch has never been out in a small boat on a big, black ocean. Our boats with their low-power nav lights are all-but invisible to the naked eye, particularly when backlit by the lights on land, and they don't show up on radar. It's incumbent on us to see the big fish and either get the hell out of their way and/or get them on VHF. Also, remember that the horizon is no more than 5 miles away, so a boat going 20+ kts will be on you in just a few minutes.

B.t.w. The Dashews put up a discussion of AIS-B which basically boils down to "Large ships turn it off in traffic".

#79 Oxygen Mask

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:51 PM

Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


I have always disagreed with allowing the motors to be stashed below, at least in venues where it might get rough or there might be heavy current or ship traffic etc.
Trying to hang off the back of the boat in the dark or rough water, or both, to install the thing, then hoping it will start quickly = dumbest thing ever.

#80 cruzist

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 07:52 PM

One last thought, without rushing to judgement on either the racing crew or ships crew. There would have been a local notice to mariners of this race, there would have been a track of boats (and not all so little) all over the place, many with identification transponders, so extra vigilance would have been the order of the night for any ships crew. My thoughts go out to the family and friends.

#81 Jambalaya

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:04 PM

Terrible news, my thoughts are with the friends and family.

#82 Silverbullet

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:19 PM

Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


And who's fault is that? The ship's or yours?

In the absence of common sense, isn't there a rule which covers this?

#83 pguillemin

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:22 PM

Are we all clear that standing watch happens on BOTH vessels? They both have the responsibility to keep clear of each other.


Exactly right, thank you for making my point better than I was able to. ;)



#84 DaveK

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:28 PM


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


I have always disagreed with allowing the motors to be stashed below, at least in venues where it might get rough or there might be heavy current or ship traffic etc.
Trying to hang off the back of the boat in the dark or rough water, or both, to install the thing, then hoping it will start quickly = dumbest thing ever.


A Hunter 37 with an outboard!? That's a strange suggestion!

#85 pguillemin

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:28 PM

agrees with responsibility of crew standing watches. Trawling fishing vessels and single handers do not stand much of a chance with freighters . Sailing yachts with full crew should be able to avoid.
All that to this point : How many casualties on sailing boats the last few years on the west coast ? and why

#86 Estar

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:30 PM

B.t.w. The Dashews put up a discussion of AIS-B which basically boils down to "Large ships turn it off in traffic".


No.

It boiled down to 'they have the capability to turn it off'.

Our experience is that the vast majority (of large ships) do not.

But the vast majority of fishing trawlers down in mexico don't have it at all.

#87 bn2

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:35 PM

Just saw on the news 3 dead on the race??
This is really strange. debris in the water. 3 dead floating crewmembers. NO explosion. No distress call. 10 am when reported near the Coronado's.
I can only think run over by a cruz ship??





#88 2slow

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:37 PM


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


And who's fault is that? The ship's or yours?

In the absence of common sense, isn't there a rule which covers this?


I don't know who was at fault or if anyone was, but this brings up an interesting question; If you do not have auxiliary power or your motor is not working for some reason are you suggesting that you are responsible for being run over if you are run over? Which brings up another question, should all boats that go offshore be required to have auxiliary power, and if they do not they are SOL if run over?

Either way, terrible loss, godspeed to the departed sailors

#89 DoRag

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:39 PM

agrees with responsibility of crew standing watches. Trawling fishing vessels and single handers do not stand much of a chance with freighters . Sailing yachts with full crew should be able to avoid.
All that to this point : How many casualties on sailing boats the last few years on the west coast ? and why


Well, I think we all need to wait and see what the investigation finds - or the inevitable lawsuits...the plaintiff's bar awaits.

#90 bn2

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:42 PM

Doubt it was a cruise ship.... if you can't see a cruise ship early (to stay out of it's way) you shouldn't be out there. And a Hunter 37 would have had an inboard engine. AIS, doubt a ship would turn it off, no reason to do that.
And find it hard to believe no other boats where near by... and when did N2E start using trackers???

#91 jrw1621

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 08:44 PM

From here:
http://www.freep.com/article/20120429/NEWS07/120429020/Three-dead-tragedy-strikes-yachting-race
Two race participants who were in the area at the time of the crash tell The Associated Press that they saw a tanker or heard warnings on their radios.

#92 Ike's Bay Commodore

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:05 PM



At night during these races, boats like the one lost may only have one or two knots of boat speed and little ability to take evasive action when they realize the ship is headed for them. During one race with a full moon we could see the dreaded equilateral triangle of lights heading for us. Red over here, green over there and two white in the middle. I was in a Cal 25 and it was clear the ship did not see us. We shone two flashlights on the main and the ship changed course and just missed us. Our boat speed - one knot.



If in the event of what appears to be a potential collision at sea a "prudent mariner" will do whatever they can and use whatever they have available to prevent said collision. Communicating with the other vessel by VHF, spot lights on the sails, or other means may be effective. But if that fails then surely it makes sense to start up the aux. engine and get the heck out of the way. I've more than once been in a sailboat and in a similar situation and had to alter my course by 90 degrees, started the motor and used full throttle to make sure my boat and crew were out of harms way. I would hope everyone else, given the same situation, would do the same.


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


So, it's the middle of night, becalmed on the ocean, in a major traffic lane.....and....wait for it....your engine is down below?

This type of mentality does not belong offshore in a yacht race.



+1

#93 RMK

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:22 PM




At night during these races, boats like the one lost may only have one or two knots of boat speed and little ability to take evasive action when they realize the ship is headed for them. During one race with a full moon we could see the dreaded equilateral triangle of lights heading for us. Red over here, green over there and two white in the middle. I was in a Cal 25 and it was clear the ship did not see us. We shone two flashlights on the main and the ship changed course and just missed us. Our boat speed - one knot.



If in the event of what appears to be a potential collision at sea a "prudent mariner" will do whatever they can and use whatever they have available to prevent said collision. Communicating with the other vessel by VHF, spot lights on the sails, or other means may be effective. But if that fails then surely it makes sense to start up the aux. engine and get the heck out of the way. I've more than once been in a sailboat and in a similar situation and had to alter my course by 90 degrees, started the motor and used full throttle to make sure my boat and crew were out of harms way. I would hope everyone else, given the same situation, would do the same.


Love to start my engine but on my Cal 25 and later Olson 30, the outboard was on the cabin sole. I do not think the ship would stop and wait for me to bolt the outboard on the transom and get it started. If the knotmeter reads triple zero - the sailboat is out of evasive action business.


So, it's the middle of night, becalmed on the ocean, in a major traffic lane.....and....wait for it....your engine is down below?

This type of mentality does not belong offshore in a yacht race.



+1


yokie, your right about one thing, the ship is not going to stop.

#94 cap10ed

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:29 PM

"why then didn't the sailboat operator hail the ship on VHF? Maneuver to avoid the ship?"
Skipper, you and I and several other commercial sailors on SA have seen it from both sides of the equation. Commercial side teaches you to take decisive actions sooner not later. Some small boat operators are radio shy, or lack the protocol to hail a ship. That tool alone clears the ambiguity about what your intentions are. If shit is going to hit the fan FIRE UP THE ENGINE ! As to this incident let's leave it to the investigators to clear out the flotsam from the facts. Another note. The quality of your radar reflector is an unknown unless YOU have verified its radar signature, with some one with a radar. I have had small craft hail me on my ship to get a distance vs signal strength and it is not a good report for most of them. Flat calm 2 miles and no return. What the hell is that! Throw in some 4' sea's and forget about that target. Pretty dismal stories coming out of the California sailing scene. 9 Dead in under a month WTF. I think the West Coast has met their quota to Davy Jones for the next 100 years.



Some posters have implied that "many" or a "majority" of ship's bridge personnel often do not maintain a proper lookout. In my nearly 40 years of sea going experience I've found this not to be the case at all. The vast majority of licensed mariners out there take their profession very seriously, regardless of what flag they sail under. It's also my experience that it's the small boat sailors who often fail to stand a proper lookout and rarely take the possibility of a collision at sea seriously. I've met numerous offshore cruisers who don't stand night watches at all, even some who intentionally turn off their running lights to "save power for more important uses". If you ever stood a watch at night on the bridge of a ship you'd realize just how difficult it is to see a small sailboat either visually or with radar.
Further, assuming you are right why then didn't the sailboat operator hail the ship on VHF? Maneuver to avoid the ship? Surely a large ship would be easier to see at night from a small sailboat than the other way around?


I don't know anything more about this particular case than anyone else at this point, but to blatantly assume that the ship's crew was at fault is not in keeping with my experience. We will surely learn more over the up coming days and weeks. Hopefully we will all learn something from this tragic loss of life. My condolences to the families and friends.



#95 Emdee

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:35 PM

I just can't get this out of my mind, done this race more than a dozen times.

These things just do not happen suddenly.

Somehow the Skipper/crew got run over by a big ship and then shredded in the tankers prop.

#96 masameet

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:42 PM

Wonder which big vessel with screw prop the Coast Guard is focusing on after checking local ports for recent arrivals and departures. If it is a tanker, it won't be able to hide any telltale signs on its hull.

#97 Grinder

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:50 PM

What about the poorly lit fishing boats out of Tijuana area.? Is that a possibility? I've done a handful of these races & seen a few.

#98 Rex II

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:57 PM

It's raining noobs in here and not one Fuck off and show us your girls tits?

Rag you on secret probation?

Honestly we have a reputation to protect.



My heartfelt sympathies for those Lost.....

#99 prof_mariner

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 09:59 PM

Another article published here and the first I've found that quoted one of the people on the scene after the accident: http://www.washingto...bnoT_story.html

#100 Heriberto

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:03 PM

What about the poorly lit fishing boats out of Tijuana area.? Is that a possibility? I've done a handful of these races & seen a few.



I don't think a fishing boat is going to shred a 37-footer.




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