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VOR Leg 7


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#901 rule69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:25 AM

Tracker says so but too close to call to my eye.

#902 jc172528

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:26 AM

Tele with slim lead <1/2 BL

Telefonica CAMPER neck and neck 200 metres from the line but current is taking them back. CAMPER look like they have gybed.



#903 tamaozy

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:26 AM

Bee's dick in it, The MCM's should be shot, you telling me they werent able to send some feeds form this.

#904 jc172528

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:27 AM

Telefonica stopped two boat lengths from the line. CAMPER are behind them and moving



#905 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:27 AM

Half of Tele is over on tracker. Campers bow just on the line.

#906 HHN92

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:28 AM

????


For ya'll that don't know...............


http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage

#907 richie

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:30 AM

I hope someone will get it on the camera...:blink:

#908 HHN92

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:30 AM

Well........what's the call???

#909 rule69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:30 AM


????


For ya'll that don't know...............


http://www.youtube.c...ayer_detailpage


Thanks. It was just a general comment about the race at hand.

#910 Dixie

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:30 AM

Telefonica beat out Camper.

#911 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:30 AM

Tele 4th. Camper 5th

#912 jc172528

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:31 AM

Tele over the line, bullocks!

#913 couchsurfer

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:31 AM



#914 SereneSpeed

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:31 AM

tele then camper done

#915 vtsail

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:32 AM

GROOOOANNNN

#916 HHN92

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:33 AM

Delta?

Looks like 1:36 to Tele.

#917 A Florida Redneck

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:33 AM

From VOR page: After an epic neck and neck struggle for the last two hours Telefónica took fourth at 01 28 27 UTC ahead of CAMPER at 01 30 09 UTC.



#918 GnarlyItWas

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:33 AM

How do you tell that, VOR website is officially shit

#919 dlangpap

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:34 AM



Leg 7 Miami to Lisbon, that would be inferred to be port to port. It isn't Leg 7 Random point on the western part of the Atlantic to Random point on the eastern end which would be rather ridiculous. Yeah the racing is going to close in, but for fucks sake they have had days to gain enough of an advantage where that should not matter. The Tracker is showing less than 6 minutes between 1st and 2nd which is pretty amazing and having the spectacle of these two coming in within sight of each other will be good for the race and the sponsors.

Who the fuck are the "Wrong Fans" and who is "we"?

I mean, i kinda cringe when i see sailing images used to promote the common perception that it is a sport only for the very wealthy as it was described recently by an NYT writer. For some reason i don't think that is what you mean by the wrong fans though.


Easy.

1. We, the members of this forum.
2. Port to Port can be port entrance to port entrance, you know that. In this case, for example, they could have moved the finish line to the entrance of the river. Just for the results of a leg to be fairer, i.e., more related to the actual performance of each team for most part of the leg, not the last nmiles.
3. Wrong fans: fans that are in it just for the show, the spectacular finishes of legs, the accidents, nationalistic reasons, et. al. The ones that are looking for the next rush and don't give a damn if it comes from football, formula 1 or WWF as long as it is "exciting", and don't contribute anything to the sport of sailing.


I simply do not agree that there is a wrong fan. Do they in any way harm the sport? Eyeballs mean sponsors, sponsors mean $, $ means better feeds for the people who don't pay for it to watch (among other things).

While I am uncertain as to the thinking on this finish up the river, I have sailed up rivers at the finishes of races and know it's possible. However it's unfortunate that the tide turned on them, and thus also the support of whoever planned it this way.

Shame also that the broadcasting has been so spotty from VOR. In fact more so the coverage is a shame, because if they had it, they wouldn't have bled half their audience in the last few hours.



A well managed race can be profitable with a market niche. More eyes and $ isn't necessarily better, especially if they have to create a show to appeal to them, which for the "real fan" (let's call it that for lack of a better word right now) is, or can become, artificial...

Meanwhile Telefonica does a boomerang across the finish line...and back.

#920 couchsurfer

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:36 AM



..UNBELEIVEABLE...Walker's still talking about having a -slow- boat,,,
,,,whattatwat!,,,just lost Mah respect-----IDIOT!!! :angry:

...what he said....''I'm sooo pleased,blah,blah,,,,we don't have the speed of other boats,,,,,,,,have to win in other ways!!'''.......''
...soooo you're boats a tub,eh,,,thank gawd for your brilliant sailing,eh :)

........HERO to ZERO :(

#921 richie

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:42 AM

Sanya from going backwards to 11 knots...a little late thou...but great !!!

#922 dlangpap

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:42 AM

Camper has managed to lose to Telefonica...one more time...

#923 richie

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:48 AM

All Done...Congratulations!!!...it's getting better an better....

#924 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:49 AM

How do you tell that, VOR website is officially shit


http://live.volvooceanrace.com/Event/Leg_7_finish_Lisbon

#925 nemme

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 01:54 AM

183 - Groupama
180 - Telefonica
171 - Puma
162 - Camper
104 - Abu Dhabi
32 - Sanya

#926 Tunnel Rat

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:02 AM

183 - Groupama
180 - Telefonica
171 - Puma
162 - Camper
104 - Abu Dhabi
32 - Sanya

Camper have got to win the last two offshores to get the overall. I think that is unlikely. I must say I feel a bit sorry for them - losing it in the last few metres, but they got beaten because Tele sailed it better - end of story!

It's going to be fantastic for the next month. In Port in Galway on 7th July - I hope it is not decided going into that race!

#927 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:19 AM

Leg 7 yacht finish times:

1. ADOR 31.05 21:23:54 utc Elapsed time 11d 04h 23m 54s
2. GPMA 31 05 21:29:21 utc Elapsed time 11d 04h 29m 21s
3. PUMA 31 05 23:26:52 utc Elapsed time 11d 06h 26m 52s
4. TELE 01 06 01:28:27 utc Elapsed time 11d 08h 28m 27s
5. CAMP 01 06 01:30:09 utc Elapsed time 11d 08h 30m 09s
6. SNYA 01 06 01:44:25 utc Elapsed time 11d 08h 44m 25s

Great effort by AD and even Sanya I think who were constantly pushing the fleet. Awesome to have all boats finish in just over 4 hours after 11 days at sea.

I may be wrong but I am pretty sure, in all previous races, the boat that won the first leg went on to win the race overall. Could we see a change here?

#928 Cavandish

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:31 AM

There are no guaranties with the wind and that is part of sailing. I doubt there is a single person on this forum that hasn't been on both the good and bad end of a freak shift, puff or calm. That is part of the sport and it is a part that isn't "fair". Anyone that has run a handicapped race knows this especially and can relate to crossing the line and then seeing the wind fill in behind them or stop all together.

More eyes are absolutely good for the sport, but only if those who play at this game are willing to hold out a hand and bring in the unwashed masses of non-sailors.

The rush of excitement for those wrong fans watching these boats struggle against nature and their competitors is one they should be informed to know that they themselves can feel on a smaller but more personal level on a boat competing. That is where the spectacle IS important, where in depth coverage of the men aboard bring an audience both to and emotionally into the event. It sparks interest beyond those of us already addicted, it runs in the face of preconceived notions that sailing is boring and stirs up interest in joining the game.

Also,dlangpap, please don't presume to talk for everyone on this forum. We? yeah....try again. That finish was epic, i'm sure Dalton will be furious and stomp his feet, finger waving in every direction but his own, but nothing new there. Sadly douchebags are part of this and every sport as well.

#929 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:52 AM

Look at the number of people on the docks for the finish and prezzos. And all of this is after midnight!

Posted Image

#930 Barnyb

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 02:54 AM

I am very disappointed with the whole Camper campaign. This is not a class act and frankly we expect more from a NZ yachting team.

They have not won anything. They end up second in the close battles, and have reeled out every excuse under the sun to explain the poor performance.

This is not just a criticism of the sailing crew, but of the whole campaign.

On the other hand there are some very good teams that have come back from earlier setbacks and are now truely in contention for the winners podium.

We expect a NZ sailing team to win - and Camper have not demonstrated any qualities to merit their participation.

#931 onimod

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:04 AM

I am very disappointed with the whole Camper campaign. This is not a class act and frankly we expect more from a NZ yachting team.
They have not won anything. They end up second in the close battles, and have reeled out every excuse under the sun to explain the poor performance.
This is not just a criticism of the sailing crew, but of the whole campaign.
On the other hand there are some very good teams that have come back from earlier setbacks and are now truely in contention for the winners podium.
We expect a NZ sailing team to win - and Camper have not demonstrated any qualities to merit their participation.

eh?! If you don't win you don't want to play?

#932 onimod

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:35 AM

Audio from Nico:
http://new.livestrea.../videos/1271742
pretty deflated, but not regretting any decisions (officially at least).

#933 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:58 AM

Second leg where Tele has passed camper in the final couple of miles...

#934 Donjoman

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 04:01 AM

Interesting comments from walker again where he claims the boat is clearly slower than the rest and the only way to win was through tactics (and risk... but i guess they had nothing to lose).

He was clearly emotional after a tough race to date with no payback... kudos to him and the crew.

#935 Dixie

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 04:27 AM

There are no guaranties with the wind and that is part of sailing. I doubt there is a single person on this forum that hasn't been on both the good and bad end of a freak shift, puff or calm. That is part of the sport and it is a part that isn't "fair". Anyone that has run a handicapped race knows this especially and can relate to crossing the line and then seeing the wind fill in behind them or stop all together.

More eyes are absolutely good for the sport, but only if those who play at this game are willing to hold out a hand and bring in the unwashed masses of non-sailors.

The rush of excitement for those wrong fans watching these boats struggle against nature and their competitors is one they should be informed to know that they themselves can feel on a smaller but more personal level on a boat competing. That is where the spectacle IS important, where in depth coverage of the men aboard bring an audience both to and emotionally into the event. It sparks interest beyond those of us already addicted, it runs in the face of preconceived notions that sailing is boring and stirs up interest in joining the game.

Also,dlangpap, please don't presume to talk for everyone on this forum. We? yeah....try again. That finish was epic, i'm sure Dalton will be furious and stomp his feet, finger waving in every direction but his own, but nothing new there. Sadly douchebags are part of this and every sport as well.


Well said, Cavandish, well said.

#936 bruno

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 04:47 AM

I am very disappointed with the whole Camper campaign. This is not a class act and frankly we expect more from a NZ yachting team.

They have not won anything. They end up second in the close battles, and have reeled out every excuse under the sun to explain the poor performance.

This is not just a criticism of the sailing crew, but of the whole campaign.

On the other hand there are some very good teams that have come back from earlier setbacks and are now truely in contention for the winners podium.

We expect a NZ sailing team to win - and Camper have not demonstrated any qualities to merit their participation.


Can't remember, ok, nevah knew, how many teams don't have kiwis on board? so what's yer problem, o, yeh, grant's guys, sponsored by que-wait-is an spaniards didn win, o, boo hoo hoo. thank god t'e sepps are cleaning up, greatest nation in the nation, ri?

Seriously, I thought that the finish would be squirrely, and it was, very. so lighten up francis.

#937 bens

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:56 AM


I am very disappointed with the whole Camper campaign. This is not a class act and frankly we expect more from a NZ yachting team.
They have not won anything. They end up second in the close battles, and have reeled out every excuse under the sun to explain the poor performance.
This is not just a criticism of the sailing crew, but of the whole campaign.
On the other hand there are some very good teams that have come back from earlier setbacks and are now truely in contention for the winners podium.
We expect a NZ sailing team to win - and Camper have not demonstrated any qualities to merit their participation.

eh?! If you don't win you don't want to play?


a little like your rugby team in world cup....

#938 onimod

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:58 AM

^ who's rugby team?

#939 Panoramix

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:59 AM




..UNBELEIVEABLE...Walker's still talking about having a -slow- boat,,,
,,,whattatwat!,,,just lost Mah respect-----IDIOT!!! :angry:

...what he said....''I'm sooo pleased,blah,blah,,,,we don't have the speed of other boats,,,,,,,,have to win in other ways!!'''.......''
...soooo you're boats a tub,eh,,,thank gawd for your brilliant sailing,eh :)

........HERO to ZERO :(


If you sail a slow boat very well and are a bit lucky, it is possible to win. I think that this is what happened. They decided that they were to slow to catch the front and got ahead of Telefonica and Groupama who overestimated their speed compared to the weather system. Then in the gulf stream they were better than Camper and Puma and managed to do a flyer while the others were stuck in no wind.

#940 schakel

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 09:20 AM


I am very disappointed with the whole Camper campaign. This is not a class act and frankly we expect more from a NZ yachting team.
They have not won anything. They end up second in the close battles, and have reeled out every excuse under the sun to explain the poor performance.
This is not just a criticism of the sailing crew, but of the whole campaign.
On the other hand there are some very good teams that have come back from earlier setbacks and are now truely in contention for the winners podium.
We expect a NZ sailing team to win - and Camper have not demonstrated any qualities to merit their participation.

eh?! If you don't win you don't want to play?

+1

#941 Pierre S

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 09:45 AM

Damn, you can't count on those Camper people for anything!

http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=3733476

I suppose we'll have another litany of excuses from Camper ETNZ and how this is deeply unfair because they really deserve to win.

#942 frostbit

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:05 AM

Congrats to Azzam. In retrospect, Puma got greedy 1,000+ miles out. Should have stayed between finish line and Groupmama instead of going for broke with a more Northern approach.

#943 frostbit

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:08 AM

Look at the number of people on the docks for the finish and prezzos. And all of this is after midnight!

Posted Image


In Lisbon, they are just getting done with dinner! In the states, it would be a few die-hards and then nothing but crickets. THe waterfront in Lisbon is ideal for large crowds.

#944 clamslapper

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:55 AM

Second leg where Tele has passed camper in the final couple of miles...



It's a little bit like Stuart Walker's book _Winning_ -- about sports psychology. Camper's inability to beat Tele is all in their head. They were well ahead of Telephone several times on the final run-in to the finish. But they just could not make themselves pull it off. I think Walker would say, the certainty to Camper of losing to Tele is subconsciously preferable to the unbearable unresolved tension of potentially beating them. One thing is for sure: Iker owns Nico's brain in this VOR.

#945 clamslapper

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:02 PM




..UNBELEIVEABLE...Walker's still talking about having a -slow- boat,,,
,,,whattatwat!,,,just lost Mah respect-----IDIOT!!! :angry:

...what he said....''I'm sooo pleased,blah,blah,,,,we don't have the speed of other boats,,,,,,,,have to win in other ways!!'''.......''
...soooo you're boats a tub,eh,,,thank gawd for your brilliant sailing,eh :)

........HERO to ZERO :(





I couldn't agree more. Walker has completely, utterly lost my respect with how he has conducted himself in this campaign.

None of these guys has any right to complain about having a slow boat, with the possible exception of Sanya. They're just optimized for slightly different points of sail, as we have seen over and over and over. Camper lights sailing upwind; Groupon likes close reaching; Azzam likes sailing downwind, and Puma and Tele are just well-rounded boats that deliver solid B+ speed on every point of sail.

I have never seen so much throwing under bus as these guys do to their designers.

#946 TimFordi550#87

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:10 PM

I think we need to cut Walker some slack.

#947 yl75

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:24 PM

They're just optimized for slightly different points of sail, as we have seen over and over and over. Camper lights sailing upwind; Groupon likes close reaching; Azzam likes sailing downwind, and Puma and Tele are just well-rounded boats that deliver solid B+ speed on every point of sail.

I have never seen so much throwing under bus as these guys do to their designers.


Would be cool if the VOR site was publishing the polars used by the tracker "crystal ball", they are computed just from the race first legs data and constantly updated ?
Or are they using just a "standard" set of polars, same one for all boats ?
Anybody knows ?

#948 Dave S

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:25 PM

I couldn't agree more. Walker has completely, utterly lost my respect with how he has conducted himself in this campaign.

None of these guys has any right to complain about having a slow boat, with the possible exception of Sanya. They're just optimized for slightly different points of sail, as we have seen over and over and over. Camper lights sailing upwind; Groupon likes close reaching; Azzam likes sailing downwind, and Puma and Tele are just well-rounded boats that deliver solid B+ speed on every point of sail.

I have never seen so much throwing under bus as these guys do to their designers.

I disagree. The design process of these boats is much more collaborative than simply calling a design office and asking for a boat. It's reasonable to assume that Ian was heavily involved in that collaboration, aswell as the choice of designer, builder, equipment suppliers etc, so he's as responsible as anyone else for the boat being a dog, and I haven't heard him claim anything to the contrary.

Saying "We've got a slow boat and have to work around that" is little different to saying "We had a bad start and had to work around it". In neither case is the skipper denying personal responsibility...

#949 victor t

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:33 PM

They're just optimized for slightly different points of sail, as we have seen over and over and over. Camper lights sailing upwind; Groupon likes close reaching; Azzam likes sailing downwind, and Puma and Tele are just well-rounded boats that deliver solid B+ speed on every point of sail.


I was curious to see the pilot charts in North Atlantic for June, to know which boats could be in a stronger position . It appears that prevailing winds are northwesterlies, of around force 4. As I see it this could favour G4 for the leg to Lorient (reaching from the azores) and maybe Camper for the leg to Gallway (upwind). What do you think?

http://www.offshoreblue.com/assets/resources/navigation/pilot-charts/north-atlantic/06napc2002.zip (sorry i don't know how to embed such a file directly in the post)

#950 dlangpap

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 12:47 PM

There are no guaranties with the wind and that is part of sailing. I doubt there is a single person on this forum that hasn't been on both the good and bad end of a freak shift, puff or calm. That is part of the sport and it is a part that isn't "fair". Anyone that has run a handicapped race knows this especially and can relate to crossing the line and then seeing the wind fill in behind them or stop all together.

More eyes are absolutely good for the sport, but only if those who play at this game are willing to hold out a hand and bring in the unwashed masses of non-sailors.

The rush of excitement for those wrong fans watching these boats struggle against nature and their competitors is one they should be informed to know that they themselves can feel on a smaller but more personal level on a boat competing. That is where the spectacle IS important, where in depth coverage of the men aboard bring an audience both to and emotionally into the event. It sparks interest beyond those of us already addicted, it runs in the face of preconceived notions that sailing is boring and stirs up interest in joining the game.

Also,dlangpap, please don't presume to talk for everyone on this forum. We? yeah....try again. That finish was epic, i'm sure Dalton will be furious and stomp his feet, finger waving in every direction but his own, but nothing new there. Sadly douchebags are part of this and every sport as well.


If you read carefully, the "we" was referring to forumers discussing different aspects of this race. By posting anything you are a part of the forum, and, therefore, the "we". That is one thing.

A different thing is MY OPINION about where the finish lines should be put. I never said or implied that the forum shares or had to share this personal opinion.





#951 couchsurfer

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:02 PM


Saying "We've got a slow boat and have to work around that" is little different to saying "We had a bad start and had to work around it". In neither case is the skipper denying personal responsibility...

...I read things differently.Azzam,the boat, has clearly shown itself NOT to be slow <_<
...in fact they did a great job of being able to get to and maintain a position at the front -despite- weather patterns contradictory to doing so,,I consider that a great job in a tough crowd..........if Walker had claimed to being part of a great team of designers,builders,sailors,navigators that won the leg ,,all good.........he could go on to say that the team had some tough breaks,and a steep learning curve out of the gate,,,this would be VERY true.....

...but what he said....''I'm sooo pleased,blah,blah,,,,we don't have the speed of other boats,,,,,,,,have to win in other ways!!'''........this sounds more like he's claiming a win -in spite- of the boat.........sure it was late after a VERY long day's work :blink: ,,prolly a bit tipsy by the time he was interviewed,etc,,,,,,,but that's what professionalism is about,,no?

...his comments would be appropriate for a leg win for Sandersen's team on Sanya

...Walker,,,hero to zero in 20 words <_<


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#952 GBH

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:30 PM

I think we need to cut Walker some slack.



why?? he's behaving exactly as he has done in the past, always someone else's or the boat's fault when things don't go well. Have to say full credit to Jules on the strategy mid-Atlantic, and for sure IW can match race at close quarters and saved the bacon right at the end.

#953 umpire

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 02:46 AM

Tele keep this quite!

From the Tele website;

War wounds: no port daggerboard

As they reached Lisbon, the “Telefónica” crew revealed that in fact the boat had been sailing 'wounded' for the past three days, with one less daggerboard after having suffered a collision with what Iker Martínez thinks was a whale in the early hours of Wednesday morning. The crew chose not to report the damage so that at the finish through the Tajo estuary, where a tacking battle was forecasted, their rivals would not know that the boat was sailing without the port daggerboard and therefore would not make a specific bid to attack from that side.



“Telefónica” had been sailing with 50 per cent of the port daggerboard at 20 knots and with some good breeze. “Camper” was nearby, just three miles away to windward.



Iker described what happened: “We were sailing tacked to starboard when we hit something fairly soft and we presumed it was a whale because to break one of these daggerboards it needed to be something pretty big. The daggerboard was completely broken but at least the rudder was safe and didn't break”.



Thereon the crew worked at fixing the problem: “At first we sailed with the damaged daggerboard and then we pulled it up and repaired it, but it was very small and we just did what we could. That's where 'Camper' got past us because we were busy dealing with the issue and carrying out repairs and then we were lucky enough that we didn't need it for the final stretch and we were able to sail at one hundred per cent



#954 Sebyseb

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 08:33 AM

"We've got a slow boat and have to work around that"

...
someone must have picked-up the phone, the current post on the VOR website now reads rather differently: “We had such high hopes coming into this race but we've been struggling for pace all the way"



#955 Red Dolphin

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:04 AM

Tele keep this quite!

From the Tele website;

War wounds: no port daggerboard

As they reached Lisbon, the "Telefónica" crew revealed that in fact the boat had been sailing 'wounded' for the past three days, with one less daggerboard after having suffered a collision with what Iker Martínez thinks was a whale in the early hours of Wednesday morning. The crew chose not to report the damage so that at the finish through the Tajo estuary, where a tacking battle was forecasted, their rivals would not know that the boat was sailing without the port daggerboard and therefore would not make a specific bid to attack from that side.



"Telefónica" had been sailing with 50 per cent of the port daggerboard at 20 knots and with some good breeze. "Camper" was nearby, just three miles away to windward.



Iker described what happened: "We were sailing tacked to starboard when we hit something fairly soft and we presumed it was a whale because to break one of these daggerboards it needed to be something pretty big. The daggerboard was completely broken but at least the rudder was safe and didn't break".



Thereon the crew worked at fixing the problem: "At first we sailed with the damaged daggerboard and then we pulled it up and repaired it, but it was very small and we just did what we could. That's where 'Camper' got past us because we were busy dealing with the issue and carrying out repairs and then we were lucky enough that we didn't need it for the final stretch and we were able to sail at one hundred per cent


Dead set..... the camper boys are going to want to top themselves after that news.

#956 Panoramix

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 12:02 PM



Saying "We've got a slow boat and have to work around that" is little different to saying "We had a bad start and had to work around it". In neither case is the skipper denying personal responsibility...

...I read things differently.Azzam,the boat, has clearly shown itself NOT to be slow <_<
...in fact they did a great job of being able to get to and maintain a position at the front -despite- weather patterns contradictory to doing so,,I consider that a great job in a tough crowd..........if Walker had claimed to being part of a great team of designers,builders,sailors,navigators that won the leg ,,all good.........he could go on to say that the team had some tough breaks,and a steep learning curve out of the gate,,,this would be VERY true.....

...but what he said....''I'm sooo pleased,blah,blah,,,,we don't have the speed of other boats,,,,,,,,have to win in other ways!!'''........this sounds more like he's claiming a win -in spite- of the boat.........sure it was late after a VERY long day's work :blink: ,,prolly a bit tipsy by the time he was interviewed,etc,,,,,,,but that's what professionalism is about,,no?

...his comments would be appropriate for a leg win for Sandersen's team on Sanya

...Walker,,,hero to zero in 20 words <_<


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If you had followed the race on the tracker, you would have realised that when it is a pure drag race, AD always looses. Against the wind ETNZ is always faster, on a reach in 15+ knots it is G4, Puma is a great all rounder never faster than all boats but often faster than most of them and finally Tele likes light winds. AD is a downwind boat but not fast enough as he still gets beaten by Tele, Puma and G4 even going downwind albeit he can resist longer.

In my view the best boat is Puma, it is very hard to beat a boat with no "holes in the polar".

#957 couchsurfer

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:07 PM




Saying "We've got a slow boat and have to work around that" is little different to saying "We had a bad start and had to work around it". In neither case is the skipper denying personal responsibility...

...I read things differently.Azzam,the boat, has clearly shown itself NOT to be slow <_<
...in fact they did a great job of being able to get to and maintain a position at the front -despite- weather patterns contradictory to doing so,,I consider that a great job in a tough crowd..........if Walker had claimed to being part of a great team of designers,builders,sailors,navigators that won the leg ,,all good.........he could go on to say that the team had some tough breaks,and a steep learning curve out of the gate,,,this would be VERY true.....

...but what he said....''I'm sooo pleased,blah,blah,,,,we don't have the speed of other boats,,,,,,,,have to win in other ways!!'''........this sounds more like he's claiming a win -in spite- of the boat.........sure it was late after a VERY long day's work :blink: ,,prolly a bit tipsy by the time he was interviewed,etc,,,,,,,but that's what professionalism is about,,no?

...his comments would be appropriate for a leg win for Sandersen's team on Sanya

...Walker,,,hero to zero in 20 words <_<


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If you had followed the race on the tracker, you would have realised that when it is a pure drag race, AD always looses. Against the wind ETNZ is always faster, on a reach in 15+ knots it is G4, Puma is a great all rounder never faster than all boats but often faster than most of them and finally Tele likes light winds. AD is a downwind boat but not fast enough as he still gets beaten by Tele, Puma and G4 even going downwind albeit he can resist longer.

In my view the best boat is Puma, it is very hard to beat a boat with no "holes in the polar".


I'm pretty sure their 'losses',when others were catching up,were mostly due to Abb uDabbu pushing against the leading edge of the front,no?,,,any boat leading in that situation would have faced the same difficult situation where you're basically a 'sitting duck' to one degree or another,,,,just as Groupon had earlier in the leg.
.......great tactics and boatspeed got them to the front,AND kept them there.
........as I said,I'm sure the comment was not very thought out,,but certainly not a 'professional' moment.

..the comments remain for posperity ~1/2 way through this video....


#958 Cyrille Hydrogene

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:11 PM


They're just optimized for slightly different points of sail, as we have seen over and over and over. Camper lights sailing upwind; Groupon likes close reaching; Azzam likes sailing downwind, and Puma and Tele are just well-rounded boats that deliver solid B+ speed on every point of sail.

I have never seen so much throwing under bus as these guys do to their designers.


Would be cool if the VOR site was publishing the polars used by the tracker "crystal ball", they are computed just from the race first legs data and constantly updated ?
Or are they using just a "standard" set of polars, same one for all boats ?
Anybody knows ?


More details about the polars could be interesting, but I'm pretty sure they aren't the same for each boat. When 2 boats are in the same spot, the crystal ball sometimes forecasts quite different routes for them.

#959 Panoramix

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 09:49 PM

I'm pretty sure their 'losses',when others were catching up,were mostly due to Abb uDabbu pushing against the leading edge of the front,no?,,,any boat leading in that situation would have faced the same difficult situation where you're basically a 'sitting duck' to one degree or another,,,,just as Groupon had earlier in the leg.
.......great tactics and boatspeed got them to the front,AND kept them there.
........as I said,I'm sure the comment was not very thought out,,but certainly not a 'professional' moment.


I was referring to the race as a whole not this leg in particular.

I agree with you that any boat would have been in a similar "sitting duck" position and would have bled miles but they didn't win it for being fast, it was just clever tactics that got them a 100NM lead while the others were sat in no wind. And 100NM was just about enough to cover the non favourable weather and their lack of speed, I am sure that they wouldn't have lasted one more day with Groupama just behind in their stern.

#960 dlangpap

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 03:03 PM

The leg was won by AD due to tactics mainly. We all have seen from the beginning of the race how, when the boat is close to others, it progressively loses ground, so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe it is slower, at least in the predominant points of sail which the race has mostly seen so far. You may or may not like Walker saying the boat is slower, but I think most agree that it effectively is.

#961 harzak

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:44 AM

The leg was won by AD due to tactics mainly. We all have seen from the beginning of the race how, when the boat is close to others, it progressively loses ground, so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe it is slower, at least in the predominant points of sail which the race has mostly seen so far. You may or may not like Walker saying the boat is slower, but I think most agree that it effectively is.

That's my impression, too.
But I also have the impression that Abu Dhabi is competitive in flat/calm sea.

#962 roca

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 05:27 PM

The leg was won by AD due to tactics mainly. We all have seen from the beginning of the race how, when the boat is close to others, it progressively loses ground, so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe it is slower, at least in the predominant points of sail which the race has mostly seen so far. You may or may not like Walker saying the boat is slower, but I think most agree that it effectively is.


sorry but I do not agree.
from tracker it did not appear that when close they loose ground. you can easly check this last leg, when they got in the same wind of puma, downwind they did not loose a single mile in more than 20 hours(out of 438 miles more or less; 29/05/2012 01.10 UTC to 29/05/2012 22.20UTC), so how have they been sailing as fast as kenny's JK design for 20 hours with a slower design, yes by sailing better than him...com'on. In the same 20 hours G4 sailed 30 miles more than both, and with the same design of puma...in other situations puma (and also Tele) ate miles against G4 like cherries. It is about navigation, sail choices (see telefonica unfair speed advantage in first legs on sails, but probably also on enthusiasm) and crew

ADOR lost ground mainly for technical problems and navigation choices, going alone, more than when close to others. They are said to have very difficoult crew mood and possibly fights onboard; food problems; lost rig in the first night of the race, lost confidence in the boat; probably did not have time enough for good training and to develop boat and sails at best. this makes a boat loose that little edge and puts you always on the wrong side. Probably did not have enough time. But this is the skipper's responsibility: to make the boat and the crew work at his best. They probably did not optimised upwind in choppy sea, maybe for design, maybe for sails, maybe for crew, probably a bit of all.
It is true that they won this last due to tactics and favourable angles and probably that bit of enthusiasm you get when in front. It is also true that they even almost lost this last leg on tactics and angles in the end. It is also true they lost the other legs on tactics and angles.

they won fastnet in front of G4 in real offshore, no flat sea (ask rambler), and some inshore races, and a leg and they pretend the boat is a dog and they sail better than the others. they had probably even the biggest budget.
they really should stop complaining. Even if they get the damn OD IW will be a looser and his team with problems. He is not cut for this race.


So, for another race round, would you bet on ken read on ADOR or IW on puma? I would go all in for KR on the farr design.

#963 Bmajor

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 03:50 AM


The leg was won by AD due to tactics mainly. We all have seen from the beginning of the race how, when the boat is close to others, it progressively loses ground, so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe it is slower, at least in the predominant points of sail which the race has mostly seen so far. You may or may not like Walker saying the boat is slower, but I think most agree that it effectively is.


sorry but I do not agree.
from tracker it did not appear that when close they loose ground. you can easly check this last leg, when they got in the same wind of puma, downwind they did not loose a single mile in more than 20 hours(out of 438 miles more or less; 29/05/2012 01.10 UTC to 29/05/2012 22.20UTC), so how have they been sailing as fast as kenny's JK design for 20 hours with a slower design, yes by sailing better than him...com'on. In the same 20 hours G4 sailed 30 miles more than both, and with the same design of puma...in other situations puma (and also Tele) ate miles against G4 like cherries. It is about navigation, sail choices (see telefonica unfair speed advantage in first legs on sails, but probably also on enthusiasm) and crew

ADOR lost ground mainly for technical problems and navigation choices, going alone, more than when close to others. They are said to have very difficoult crew mood and possibly fights onboard; food problems; lost rig in the first night of the race, lost confidence in the boat; probably did not have time enough for good training and to develop boat and sails at best. this makes a boat loose that little edge and puts you always on the wrong side. Probably did not have enough time. But this is the skipper's responsibility: to make the boat and the crew work at his best. They probably did not optimised upwind in choppy sea, maybe for design, maybe for sails, maybe for crew, probably a bit of all.
It is true that they won this last due to tactics and favourable angles and probably that bit of enthusiasm you get when in front. It is also true that they even almost lost this last leg on tactics and angles in the end. It is also true they lost the other legs on tactics and angles.

they won fastnet in front of G4 in real offshore, no flat sea (ask rambler), and some inshore races, and a leg and they pretend the boat is a dog and they sail better than the others. they had probably even the biggest budget.
they really should stop complaining. Even if they get the damn OD IW will be a looser and his team with problems. He is not cut for this race.


So, for another race round, would you bet on ken read on ADOR or IW on puma? I would go all in for KR on the farr design.



WTF?? What's your point?

#964 DtM

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:05 AM

I think he is a Ken Read fan.

#965 roca

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:50 AM



The leg was won by AD due to tactics mainly. We all have seen from the beginning of the race how, when the boat is close to others, it progressively loses ground, so I don't think it's unreasonable to believe it is slower, at least in the predominant points of sail which the race has mostly seen so far. You may or may not like Walker saying the boat is slower, but I think most agree that it effectively is.


sorry but I do not agree.
from tracker it did not appear that when close they loose ground. you can easly check this last leg, when they got in the same wind of puma, downwind they did not loose a single mile in more than 20 hours(out of 438 miles more or less; 29/05/2012 01.10 UTC to 29/05/2012 22.20UTC), so how have they been sailing as fast as kenny's JK design for 20 hours with a slower design, yes by sailing better than him...com'on. In the same 20 hours G4 sailed 30 miles more than both, and with the same design of puma...in other situations puma (and also Tele) ate miles against G4 like cherries. It is about navigation, sail choices (see telefonica unfair speed advantage in first legs on sails, but probably also on enthusiasm) and crew

ADOR lost ground mainly for technical problems and navigation choices, going alone, more than when close to others. They are said to have very difficoult crew mood and possibly fights onboard; food problems; lost rig in the first night of the race, lost confidence in the boat; probably did not have time enough for good training and to develop boat and sails at best. this makes a boat loose that little edge and puts you always on the wrong side. Probably did not have enough time. But this is the skipper's responsibility: to make the boat and the crew work at his best. They probably did not optimised upwind in choppy sea, maybe for design, maybe for sails, maybe for crew, probably a bit of all.
It is true that they won this last due to tactics and favourable angles and probably that bit of enthusiasm you get when in front. It is also true that they even almost lost this last leg on tactics and angles in the end. It is also true they lost the other legs on tactics and angles.

they won fastnet in front of G4 in real offshore, no flat sea (ask rambler), and some inshore races, and a leg and they pretend the boat is a dog and they sail better than the others. they had probably even the biggest budget.
they really should stop complaining. Even if they get the damn OD IW will be a looser and his team with problems. He is not cut for this race.


So, for another race round, would you bet on ken read on ADOR or IW on puma? I would go all in for KR on the farr design.



WTF?? What's your point?


the point is it is wrong saying that ADOR poor results derive from boat design and boat speed. And it is unfair from IW keeping repeating it and not taking his responsabilities. some say that a lie told a 100 times turns into accepted true.

#966 roca

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:57 AM

I think he is a Ken Read fan.


No, personally I am a fan of G4/cammas and I love their way of sailing this race, but I must admit KR is today the most consistent and prepared skipper in VOR. He is showing all the virtues, the character and the skills a skipper should have in this race, and that are blatlanty lacking in ADOR.

#967 Panoramix

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:18 AM

the point is it is wrong saying that ADOR poor results derive from boat design and boat speed. And it is unfair from IW keeping repeating it and not taking his responsabilities. some say that a lie told a 100 times turns into accepted true.


I think that we must have been following a different race. The boat also lost hull integrity which isn't a sign of good design either!

#968 bruno

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 04:50 PM

So you know for a fact that FYD did the scantlings and supervised construction?

#969 Te Kooti

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 04:41 AM

Do any of you guys know how the Hainan Islanders are feeling about their VOR debut?

#970 couchsurfer

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:03 AM

Do any of you guys know how the Hainan Islanders are feeling about their VOR debut?

no,,tell us <_<




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