69 replies to this topic

[cosmicsedso]

Can anyone enlighten me about GBR NOT competing in the Mens category at the current 470 Worlds?

[jwlbrace]

Luke Patience probably couldn't get his hair gel through airport security...

[High Flow]

same for the 49er worlds last week:
http://www.49erworld...verall-results/

[freddy]

just check the results from the last 3 olympic games - I think it is fair to assume that Sparky and his coaches know what they are doing....

[SimonN]

The events are too close to the games and would be considered a distraction. The way that Team GBR gear up for a worlds is to spend lots of time at the venue, develop skills, strategies and even weight specific to that venue. So, unless it fits with a particular plan, they would rather not go unprepared to a venue and instead concentrate on the one venue that counts. If you look at the data, there is little correlation between being current world champion and winning gold. In fact, statistically, it is less likely thatb the world champion will win gold.

There are exceptions. For instance, Ian Percy felt he needed to sail the Star worlds because he retired injured from the previous one (which was the last major Star regatta). His target wasn't to win it, but to use it as an opportunity to assess where he is in his preparations and where his opponents are. He knew the venue well already and I suspect that even with that loss of gold on the last day, Perc must be pretty pleased with his week.

Ben Ainslie is in a similar position. The last big one in Perth, he got chucked out and he needs to test his back fully where it counts, in world class competition. In addition, he hasn't needed to travel for the event so it really doesn't eat into his training too much.

[High Flow]

i can understand that,
BUT
GBR has several boats that can do a top 10 at the worlds. (49er that is, i'm sure they have more than 1 first class boat in the 470 too)
only one boat goes to the olympics. as far as i know that is already decided (at least for the 49er).
so, why is nobody at the worlds?
because as soon as they know they aren't making the games, they quit altogether?
or am i wrong and there are some final trials (49er)?
at the finn gold cup, it's not just big ben, but they are all there (ok, that's a home game)

[jwlbrace]

The GBR 470 squad are probably all training hard together... there's more than one boat that goes into each medal behind Team GB, training partners are fundamental. They're like understudies waiting, watching, learning and progressing for their own time to come about.

[European Bloke]

There were 4 of them out in Weymouth on Sunday.

[cosmicsedso]

just check the results from the last 3 olympic games - I think it is fair to assume that Sparky and his coaches know what they are doing....

I dont need to go back over the results to know that AUS has been the dominant force in 470 sailing for some time
The AUS team is competing at the World Cup and the Open Worlds.
Their training partners compete alongside them.

The GBR plan sounds terribly risky to me.
What if weather conditions during the Olympics are "not what its usually like"?
What if someone from another country is developing faster gear ?

Training in isolation is not what I would be recommending.

They're not scared are they?

[SimonN]

just check the results from the last 3 olympic games - I think it is fair to assume that Sparky and his coaches know what they are doing....

I dont need to go back over the results to know that AUS has been the dominant force in 470 sailing for some time
The AUS team is competing at the World Cup and the Open Worlds.
Their training partners compete alongside them.

The GBR plan sounds terribly risky to me.
What if weather conditions during the Olympics are "not what its usually like"?
What if someone from another country is developing faster gear ?

Training in isolation is not what I would be recommending.

They're not scared are they?

You think that the GBR strategy is risky? It's the same one that has now been used for the last 3 Olympic cycles and which has seen them medal in 6 classes each time, something no other team has come even close to. There are no guarantees, but I would stick with the tried and proven methods that have made Team GBR the number 1 Olympic sailing nation for 3 cycles running. In the same period of time, it is well documented that Team AUS has seriously under performed, compared with the world ranking of their sailors. It is all very well citing one class but look at the rest. Tom, Nathan and Bundy went into the last olympics as world champs and world No1, but it didn't help them very much.I won a bet with Phil Jones (CEO of YA) over whether GBR or AUS would win the most medals (he still hasn't sailed a Moth on Sydney harbour butt naked!) and IMO, it was pretty obvious who would win that bet.

The "it isn't usually like this here syndrome" is the very reason why you need to spend as much time at a venue as the Brits do. First off, there are certain factors that never change with the weather, such as tides. Secondly, while it might be "it's never usually like this here" conditions, it is never "we have never seen this before". You take a venue like Sydney Harbour in 2000 or Weymouth this time, the amount of knowledge needed is far more than most venues. Sydney, in particular, an advantage was gained simply because Team GBR knew what would happen on the race courses better than any other team and, as unlikely as it might seem, better than the Australians. I remember one world class Sydney local telling me how he watched Iain Percy sail "the wrong way" up a leg and he still couldn't understand how Perc came out where he did. The research into course areas such as the Manly Circle was extraordinary.

Another reason why Team GBR doesn't go to some regattas is that their squads are usually the strongest squads in the world and as such, they can do more work as a team than at a regatta. This is particularly true on one design classes but also works in others. Although they are racing the Finn Gold Cup, Team GBR pretty much have the top 3 or 4 Finn sailors in the world. In the 49ers, there are 3 in the top 10 (4 in the top 12) and that doesn't include the guys selected.

As I said, there are no guarantees of medals in the Olympics but it would be a brave person to bet against Team GBR doing well. And if you look at the rankings, the people you would pick to win a medal, such as Ben Ainslie and Iain Percy aren't even ranked in the top 20 in the world, just like in 2008. The real lesson is, if you want to win an olympic medal, don't train to win owrld championships, train to win Olympics. They are 2 very different things. (I hope I haven't just cursed the whole of Team GBR!)

[redstar]

Goody went to the Laser Worlds. How did that work out for him?

[cosmicsedso]

just check the results from the last 3 olympic games - I think it is fair to assume that Sparky and his coaches know what they are doing....

I dont need to go back over the results to know that AUS has been the dominant force in 470 sailing for some time
The AUS team is competing at the World Cup and the Open Worlds.
Their training partners compete alongside them.

The GBR plan sounds terribly risky to me.
What if weather conditions during the Olympics are "not what its usually like"?
What if someone from another country is developing faster gear ?

Training in isolation is not what I would be recommending.

They're not scared are they?

You think that the GBR strategy is risky? It's the same one that has now been used for the last 3 Olympic cycles and which has seen them medal in 6 classes each time, something no other team has come even close to. There are no guarantees, but I would stick with the tried and proven methods that have made Team GBR the number 1 Olympic sailing nation for 3 cycles running. In the same period of time, it is well documented that Team AUS has seriously under performed, compared with the world ranking of their sailors. It is all very well citing one class but look at the rest. Tom, Nathan and Bundy went into the last olympics as world champs and world No1, but it didn't help them very much.I won a bet with Phil Jones (CEO of YA) over whether GBR or AUS would win the most medals (he still hasn't sailed a Moth on Sydney harbour butt naked!) and IMO, it was pretty obvious who would win that bet.

The "it isn't usually like this here syndrome" is the very reason why you need to spend as much time at a venue as the Brits do. First off, there are certain factors that never change with the weather, such as tides. Secondly, while it might be "it's never usually like this here" conditions, it is never "we have never seen this before". You take a venue like Sydney Harbour in 2000 or Weymouth this time, the amount of knowledge needed is far more than most venues. Sydney, in particular, an advantage was gained simply because Team GBR knew what would happen on the race courses better than any other team and, as unlikely as it might seem, better than the Australians. I remember one world class Sydney local telling me how he watched Iain Percy sail "the wrong way" up a leg and he still couldn't understand how Perc came out where he did. The research into course areas such as the Manly Circle was extraordinary.

Another reason why Team GBR doesn't go to some regattas is that their squads are usually the strongest squads in the world and as such, they can do more work as a team than at a regatta. This is particularly true on one design classes but also works in others. Although they are racing the Finn Gold Cup, Team GBR pretty much have the top 3 or 4 Finn sailors in the world. In the 49ers, there are 3 in the top 10 (4 in the top 12) and that doesn't include the guys selected.

As I said, there are no guarantees of medals in the Olympics but it would be a brave person to bet against Team GBR doing well. And if you look at the rankings, the people you would pick to win a medal, such as Ben Ainslie and Iain Percy aren't even ranked in the top 20 in the world, just like in 2008. The real lesson is, if you want to win an olympic medal, don't train to win owrld championships, train to win Olympics. They are 2 very different things. (I hope I haven't just cursed the whole of Team GBR!)

You make some good points Simon
I would pay money to watch Phil Jones sail a Moth on Sydney Harbour, naked or not!
I agree that there have been some problems with a few underwhelming AUS results from recent Olympics but GBR have got one of those problems coaching them?

Has GBR given up Olympic hopes with the womens 470 team who ARE competing (and winning) at the current Worlds?

GBR will probably win the most medals again, but they have three things which really help - Ben Ainslie, Big money and a lot more population.
In relation to population size, AUS performs well ABOVE its weight division.
I will be happy knowing our (few) guys will be working their butts off trying to make AUS the winning nation.
Its going to be a very exciting Olympics.

[SimonN]

I agree that there have been some problems with a few underwhelming AUS results from recent Olympics but GBR have got one of those problems coaching them?

I don't thonk the problem is coaches and that isn't why Team GBR is so succesfull. The challenge for Team Aus, is that many of the factors just cannot be replicated. For instance, the backbone of the GBR system lies in the strength of squads, which starts with the youth sailors and progresses on. There is an ethos of working as a squad and in the past, when that has broken down, Team GBR has failed to win in that class. The classic example was the Tornado - disfunctional squad that failed to perform when it counted. The obvious example of the opposite is the Finn, where they woukd rather work as a squad than go off trying to develop enough on their own to beat Ainslie. Even in a class where there isn't a squad, such as the Star, the past squad experiences allow Perc to carry out a great campaign and he is able to bring in training partners from overseas. For Aus, the issue is simply numbers and geography.

Has GBR given up Olympic hopes with the womens 470 team who ARE competing (and winning) at the current Worlds?

Note I said that they don't compete unless there is a good reason. In the case of the womens 470, the team has been together for such a short time they need to do as many regattas as possible. I believe that this is only their second worlds as a team. But the men have just come off a hard fought selection process and need to get into training and development mode - they have had enough racing.

GBR will probably win the most medals again, but they have three things which really help - Ben Ainslie, Big money and a lot more population.

Ben can only win one medal, the money helps but at the end of the day, you cannot buy whatever it is that allows Ben, Perc and the others win. And as for population, if that was such a big factor, in Europe alone, we should see Germany, France, Italy, Turkey and Russia doing at least as well if not better. Looking at the rest of the world and the picture looks even less like supporting your hypothisis on this!

In relation to population size, AUS performs well ABOVE its weight division.

Unfortunately, that doesn't fully stack up. Measuring sailing medals to population and Aus is under performing compared with Team GBR. However, I do agree that compared with many other countries, they are doing OK. It is simply a matter oif whether second best is good enough. I know that for some in YA, it certainly isn't.

I will be happy knowing our (few) guys will be working their butts off trying to make AUS the winning nation.

Don't get me wrong. Some of the guys I consider to be friends and I really do hope they do well. What really concerns me is that I see the same "mistakes" being made in terms of how they are running their campaigns and believe they aren't making life easy for themselves. I really do hope I am wrong, but what I do know is that no mmber of Team GBR would run their campaigns the way the likes of Tom Slingsby and Nathan Outteridge run theirs. If Tom and Nathan do win through, I would argue it is despite their campaigns, not because of them. Nathan is probably the best apparent wind sailor I have ever seen - in fact, the only sailor I ahve ever seen I think is better than Nathan is Ainslie, and IMO the only reason he won't win is because of his preparation.

[ojfd]

......
For Aus, the issue is simply numbers and geography.

......
You sure about that? Did Kovalenko share his thoughts with you?

[SimonN]

......
For Aus, the issue is simply numbers and geography.

......
You sure about that? Did Kovalenko share his thoughts with you?

I haven't actually spoken to Victor about it directly but i have spent time speaking to others in YA who have been very concerned about the inabilty for what is undoubtedly one of the most talented squads in sailing to produce the goods when it counts. Victor is clearly a great coach, but there seems to be serious question marks about whether his techniques can produce results in more than just 470's. In the time he has had the success with the 470 teams, the others have failed to perform to expectations. The reasons I believe that the problems are numbers and geography is based on what I believe have been the strengths of the Team GBR system. A lot is talked about money, but I believe that is only a part of the picture.

I believe that the number 1 strength of the GBR system is the squad. Those squads start at a fairly young age. The likes of Ben Ainslie and Iain Percy participated in the youth squad system which attracted large numbers of kids from all over the UK. Those kids were taught how to work together, train together and how to work like the top guys, and were taught this from an early age. I remember seeing 60+ kids lined up outside a sailing club being pushed through fitness stuff by Sunny Jim Saltyballs and each kids was trying to outdo the next kid. So, within a spirit of all working together, there were these intense rivalries/friendships which pushed them to heights I don't think you would otherwise see. As those sailors have got older, they were able to transition into what is called the development squads and then the full squad with ease because they have been working that way from such a young age. And in most classes, it is the strength of the squads that have pushed the Brits to medal winning standards. I really don't think that Ainslie would be as good as he is in a Finn if it weren't for the rest of the squad. Look at how Goody has been pushed in the Laser.

So what has that got to do with numbers and geography? Well, in Oz there are nowhere near the same number of competitive sailors and they are so spread out that it is impossible to run the same system as we see in the UK. In the UK, I would guess that 80% of junior squad sailors live within 4 hours drive of each other. Here in Oz, I cannot even get out of the state by driving 4 hours! When it comes to numbers, Team GBR's normal problem is that they have too many good sailors for the number of squad places.

And that is just the start. I could write a whole paper on it but the themes would come back to the same thing. Get enough people in the same place at the same time, train them from an early age how to go about their business and the results will come. The sum is greater than the parts. Regrettably, it seems to me to be impossible in Oz.

My hope is that the likes of Nathan and Tom are so good they can overcome the disadvantages they have compared with Team GBR. I am absolutely convinced that both of the, with their existing personal coaches, would already be medal winners under Team GBR. Nathan is one of the best I have ever seen (and at my age, that's saying something ). My other concern is that even if they do win, the methods to get them there aren't sustainable. Where are the 4 or 5 others coming behind them, becasue that is what you need to get success next time, and the 20-30 in the youth squads to get success in 2020 and beyond.

[punter]

Was told by one of the former gbr squad laser guys that goody was amazing in how little time he took to get from arriving at the club to getting on the water. Very efficient.

[SimonN]

Was told by one of the former gbr squad laser guys that goody was amazing in how little time he took to get from arriving at the club to getting on the water. Very efficient.

Takes years of training! Stevie Brewin keeps telling me how fast he is from arrival to launch, but I think it is just an excuse for being late!

[ojfd]

.......
I haven't actually spoken to Victor about it directly but i have spent time speaking to others in YA who have been very concerned about the inabilty for what is undoubtedly one of the most talented squads in sailing to produce the goods when it counts. Victor is clearly a great coach, but there seems to be serious question marks about whether his techniques can produce results in more than just 470's. In the time he has had the success with the 470 teams, the others have failed to perform to expectations.
........

Thanks for the insight, SimonN. Some good friends of mine know Kovalenko from his early days and think very highly of him, but obviously, one should not expect wonders. The time will tell.

.....
So what has that got to do with numbers and geography? Well, in Oz there are nowhere near the same number of competitive sailors and they are so spread out that it is impossible to run the same system as we see in the UK. In the UK, I would guess that 80% of junior squad sailors live within 4 hours drive of each other. Here in Oz, I cannot even get out of the state by driving 4 hours!
.........

Oh, I see. That certainly makes sense.

[SimonN]

I need to give a shout out to the GBR girls who just won the 470 worlds.IMO, this is the most extraordinary achievement. They only started to sail together 15 months ago. While Saskia might have the experience, the way the girls have come together as a team and produced results in such a short space of time is something I am not sure I have ever seen before. From well outside the top 10 to best in the world in 15 months is rather special. And while I said that world championships aren't important, for this team I would suggest this is a major milestone - 2 worlds together and a 2nd followed by a 1st. While Tom Slinsby, Nathan Outteridge and Ben Ainslie didn't need to win a worlds this year to know how good they are, without this result these girls would never have know whether 2nd in Perth was a one off. The confidence gained from knowing it isn't must be huge.

There aren't that many sailing achievements that leave me in awe, but I think this is one. Of course, it will all be wasted if they don't perform in 3 months time, but for now, I will simply say, WOW!

[Andrew P]

What really concerns me is that I see the same "mistakes" being made in terms of how they are running their campaigns and believe they aren't making life easy for themselves. I really do hope I am wrong, but what I do know is that no member of Team GBR would run their campaigns the way the likes of Tom Slingsby and Nathan Outteridge run theirs. If Tom and Nathan do win through, I would argue it is despite their campaigns, not because of them. Nathan is probably the best apparent wind sailor I have ever seen - in fact, the only sailor I ahve ever seen I think is better than Nathan is Ainslie, and IMO the only reason he won't win is because of his preparation.

So given this is your opinion, what do you believe are the " Mistakes" that are being made with these two programmes? How are these athletes programmes structured and why is the head coach unable to
influence the overall coaching programme so that the programmes of the other classes are run on a best practice basis?

[SimonN]

What really concerns me is that I see the same "mistakes" being made in terms of how they are running their campaigns and believe they aren't making life easy for themselves. I really do hope I am wrong, but what I do know is that no member of Team GBR would run their campaigns the way the likes of Tom Slingsby and Nathan Outteridge run theirs. If Tom and Nathan do win through, I would argue it is despite their campaigns, not because of them. Nathan is probably the best apparent wind sailor I have ever seen - in fact, the only sailor I ahve ever seen I think is better than Nathan is Ainslie, and IMO the only reason he won't win is because of his preparation.

So given this is your opinion, what do you believe are the " Mistakes" that are being made with these two programmes? How are these athletes programmes structured and why is the head coach unable to
influence the overall coaching programme so that the programmes of the other classes are run on a best practice basis?

You ask a couple of questions so I will do my best to answer.

As you say, this is only my opinion. So here's a question. How many members of Team GBR sailed at Venice in the AC45's? Even if the Finns weren't racing, do you think that Ainslie would have gone? Perc wasn't there. I have talked to Nathan about this and his answer is that he wants to do other things to keep it fresh in the 49er. Fair enough, you might say, but I am more concerned that Team GBR seem to manage to keep it fresh and still do a lot more Olympic specific sailing. Then there is the issue of time spent in Weymouth. Again, Nathan and Tom would say that they are proven winners there but i think that Team GBR would argue that you simply cannot spend too much time at the Olympic venue. They are already well into their planning and recon for Brazil, although admittedly they haven't sent sailors there yet.

I also put "mistakes" the way I did because some of the factors are outside of their control. For instance, Nathan doesn't have a strong Australian 49er squad with which to train regularly which means he trains with other countries. I believe that while that is useful, it is never as good as training with guys who are on the same side.

As for the issue of the head coach being able to influence the overall program, I would argue that Victor is a fantastic 470 coach because of his in depth understanding of the issues that make a 470 fast. Those issues don't translate to a 49er. For instance, I am told that Victor has his own special ways that you carry out every manouver and that he is able to get the crews he coaches to be better boat handlers than the others. There is also their technical program in the 470 - the Aussies have the best foils and nobody else can get their hands on them. Don't get me wrong, the sailors are great, but Victor gives them the tools that allows them to shine.

The technical side might also be a matter of money. 470 development is relatively cheap compared with, say, Finn masts or the technical side of Stars. For China, the Brits and Yanks each spent 100's of 1000's of dollars on the technical side. The Brits developed a hullshape with JuanK that is an absolute winner, while the Yanks developed a hullshape that was a total dog except in very light winds, proving that it is not just having the money but knowing what to do with it.

I have now probably hexed Team GBR for the upcoming Olympics, but they do still set the standard for an Olympic sailing team and will have done more than any other team to put their sailors in the best position to win medals. What happens on the day is another matter, but Sparky and his team will know that on the first day of the regatta, they have done all they can and given their guys the best chance possible. One thing I hear so often from other teams is that they have done all they can, given the (limited) resources at their disposal. You won't here that from Team GBR.

[Andrew P]

What really concerns me is that I see the same "mistakes" being made in terms of how they are running their campaigns and believe they aren't making life easy for themselves. I really do hope I am wrong, but what I do know is that no member of Team GBR would run their campaigns the way the likes of Tom Slingsby and Nathan Outteridge run theirs. If Tom and Nathan do win through, I would argue it is despite their campaigns, not because of them. Nathan is probably the best apparent wind sailor I have ever seen - in fact, the only sailor I ahve ever seen I think is better than Nathan is Ainslie, and IMO the only reason he won't win is because of his preparation.

So given this is your opinion, what do you believe are the " Mistakes" that are being made with these two programmes? How are these athletes programmes structured and why is the head coach unable to
influence the overall coaching programme so that the programmes of the other classes are run on a best practice basis?

You ask a couple of questions so I will do my best to answer.

As you say, this is only my opinion. So here's a question. How many members of Team GBR sailed at Venice in the AC45's? Even if the Finns weren't racing, do you think that Ainslie would have gone? Perc wasn't there. I have talked to Nathan about this and his answer is that he wants to do other things to keep it fresh in the 49er. Fair enough, you might say, but I am more concerned that Team GBR seem to manage to keep it fresh and still do a lot more Olympic specific sailing. Then there is the issue of time spent in Weymouth. Again, Nathan and Tom would say that they are proven winners there but i think that Team GBR would argue that you simply cannot spend too much time at the Olympic venue. They are already well into their planning and recon for Brazil, although admittedly they haven't sent sailors there yet.

I also put "mistakes" the way I did because some of the factors are outside of their control. For instance, Nathan doesn't have a strong Australian 49er squad with which to train regularly which means he trains with other countries. I believe that while that is useful, it is never as good as training with guys who are on the same side.

As for the issue of the head coach being able to influence the overall program, I would argue that Victor is a fantastic 470 coach because of his in depth understanding of the issues that make a 470 fast. Those issues don't translate to a 49er. For instance, I am told that Victor has his own special ways that you carry out every manouver and that he is able to get the crews he coaches to be better boat handlers than the others. There is also their technical program in the 470 - the Aussies have the best foils and nobody else can get their hands on them. Don't get me wrong, the sailors are great, but Victor gives them the tools that allows them to shine.

The technical side might also be a matter of money. 470 development is relatively cheap compared with, say, Finn masts or the technical side of Stars. For China, the Brits and Yanks each spent 100's of 1000's of dollars on the technical side. The Brits developed a hullshape with JuanK that is an absolute winner, while the Yanks developed a hullshape that was a total dog except in very light winds, proving that it is not just having the money but knowing what to do with it.

I have now probably hexed Team GBR for the upcoming Olympics, but they do still set the standard for an Olympic sailing team and will have done more than any other team to put their sailors in the best position to win medals. What happens on the day is another matter, but Sparky and his team will know that on the first day of the regatta, they have done all they can and given their guys the best chance possible. One thing I hear so often from other teams is that they have done all they can, given the (limited) resources at their disposal. You won't here that from Team GBR.

No surprises in the answers here, but its good to hear it from a Sydney residents perspective ie someone who sees how the programmes run on the harbour. As usual the issue appears to be one of resources, the GBR team has the money to fund the talent pool to create the depth of crews to support the "chosen".

I was surprised that two of the Aust team would commence new activities in the lead up to the end game, but I don't know them or what the official opinion of the Aust. team management is on the decisions they made. I guess they and their coaches will be judged in hindsight depending on the results that are achieved.

I'm sure the AOC will be counting on medals of some colour from both of them

[RobG]

No surprises in the answers here, but its good to hear it from a Sydney residents perspective ie someone who sees how the programmes run on the harbour. As usual the issue appears to be one of resources, the GBR team has the money to fund the talent pool to create the depth of crews to support the "chosen".

Yes, money and distance are a serious challenge, from more than one perspective. I see the Yachting Queensland youth training squad on Waterloo Bay from time to time. There might be a couple of 29ers and 420s, 5 or 6 Lasers and a Hobbie, though there seems to be a couple of 470s out there lately. That's it. No doubt the full squad is bigger, but that's all there is on the water at one time. I guess most kids have better things to do and don't see any prospect of a career in sailing.

They only need to ask a few questions of current Olympic sailors about how much time, effort and private money it takes to reach Olympic level to realise that their chances of a fulfilling life are much more likely to be met doing other things. Sailing might remain a passionate pursuit, but any thought of Olympic glory is dismissed out of hand.

I was surprised that two of the Aust team would commence new activities in the lead up to the end game, but I don't know them or what the official opinion of the Aust. team management is on the decisions they made. I guess they and their coaches will be judged in hindsight depending on the results that are achieved.

I'm sure the AOC will be counting on medals of some colour from both of them

If that's all sailing is to the AOC, then perhaps it would be better if YA concentrated on world championships and gave the Olympics a miss. Most punters couldn't tell you the name of any class sailed at the Olympics, much less the name of anyone who's won a medal of any colour in any class at any games. Not one (ok, a very few Aussies might guess John Bertrand but only because of his Americas' Cup success).

[SimonN]

.... the GBR team has the money to fund the talent pool to create the depth of crews to support the "chosen".

This is an interesting point. Money certainly plays a part, but IMO, the real strength of the program didn't take a lot of money and is down to one man, Jim Saltonstall. He built the youth program in the days before the money came on line. He was lucky to have the numbers but it is what he did with the juniors that made the difference. He found the key to giving his squad members the skills they would need for Olympic glory so that when they had the opportunity, they could take it. The reason why the money has worked is because the sailors were ready. So while I do say money is important, it is only one piece of the jigsaw and I believe that people over simplify the reasons for Team GBR's success.

[Phil S]

Despite the fact that Yachting Austraila gets most of its income form Aust Sports Commission/AOC/IOC and spends most of its money on a few Olympic aspirants, there is not enough of it to make anyone rich or even self supporting, even with the relativley small group of people involved. Purchasing top boats from overseas builders and transporting them every few months all over the world is not cheap, add costs of living away from home for long periods as well.
So thats why our top sailors have taken jobs with the lucritive Americas Cup circus, they have debts to pay and need some means of paying for their future after their olympic careers are over.
For 50 years I have observed AUS olympic sailing from a distance. It has changed. It was once seen by the majority of Aus sailors as a novelty activity for people with wealthy friends or parents, who sailed boring heavy boats in small groups away from the main stream sailing clubs. But they had fleets big enough for local selection trials and so not everyone needed to travel to make the olympics.
With professionalism came the oportunity for some other skilled people to get involved, but for a while the boats remained expensive and boring. The stakes got higher and the Govt expectaions got higher too, and so Govt money started to appear.
The Tornado and 49er made the olympic sailing more interesting and the Laser made it much more accessible. With Govt money YA selection policy changed to favour performance in big regattas overseas, so the boats might have been more attractive but getting selected now cost a packet, and since an overseas campaign was way beyond the budget of most, YA money was needed to fill the gap. With limited funds YA (under Govt direction?) now pick prospective winners and concentrate their money where propects of success are highest.
So AUS fleets in Olympic classes are still small, (with exception of Lasers which does seem to be mostly based in the masters categories.) Many local sailors winge that YA spends all it money on a few Olympic sailors without accepting that YA gets its money from Govt etc for just that purpose.
We have three exceptional teams leading up to London, they all worked hard and made big sacrifices, but they all have a special tallent most of us lack. The rest of our squad are pretty good too. We wish them well too.
You poms might think that beating you is the most important thing for AUS but you come only second. Beating New Zealand is our top priority.

[SimonN]

I should add that I have a real split allegence to the "mother land" and to my adopted country. In fact, I seriously want Tom to win and Nathan to be 1st equal! The only reason I don't want Nathan to win on his own is because the GBR team member is an old friend and I cannot fully support Nathan at the expense of Stevie. If Stevie hadn't been selected, I would have been gunning for Nathan on his own. And if Stevie is out of the medal chase, I will be cheering for Nathan in a big way. My nightmare is for them to go into the medal race tied points at the top of the leaderboard. And everybody thinks it's great i have dual nationality!!!!

[cosmicsedso]

I should add that I have a real split allegence to the "mother land" and to my adopted country. In fact, I seriously want Tom to win and Nathan to be 1st equal! The only reason I don't want Nathan to win on his own is because the GBR team member is an old friend and I cannot fully support Nathan at the expense of Stevie. If Stevie hadn't been selected, I would have been gunning for Nathan on his own. And if Stevie is out of the medal chase, I will be cheering for Nathan in a big way. My nightmare is for them to go into the medal race tied points at the top of the leaderboard. And everybody thinks it's great i have dual nationality!!!!

Simon
You do sound conflicted mate.
I guess we will get a fair Olympics indicator at Sail for Gold next week.
All the usual suspects are entered.
I can't wait!

[SimonN]

I should add that I have a real split allegence to the "mother land" and to my adopted country. In fact, I seriously want Tom to win and Nathan to be 1st equal! The only reason I don't want Nathan to win on his own is because the GBR team member is an old friend and I cannot fully support Nathan at the expense of Stevie. If Stevie hadn't been selected, I would have been gunning for Nathan on his own. And if Stevie is out of the medal chase, I will be cheering for Nathan in a big way. My nightmare is for them to go into the medal race tied points at the top of the leaderboard. And everybody thinks it's great i have dual nationality!!!!

Simon
You do sound conflicted mate.
I guess we will get a fair Olympics indicator at Sail for Gold next week.
All the usual suspects are entered.
I can't wait!

Yes, I am conflicted! lol.

I am not sure that sail for gold will tell us very much. It ius a very different regatta than an Olympic one, because there are far more boats and also more than 1 entry per nation. I would expect this to be used for testing. And you don't want to give too much away; say you have found a supercharged mode on a particular point of sailing - you don't want others to know while they still have time to work on that. Remember, this regatta means nothing in terms of the Olympics.

[facthunt]

Despite the fact that Yachting Austraila gets most of its income form Aust Sports Commission/AOC/IOC and spends most of its money on a few Olympic aspirants, there is not enough of it to make anyone rich or even self supporting, even with the relativley small group of people involved. Purchasing top boats from overseas builders and transporting them every few months all over the world is not cheap, add costs of living away from home for long periods as well.
So thats why our top sailors have taken jobs with the lucritive Americas Cup circus, they have debts to pay and need some means of paying for their future after their olympic careers are over.
For 50 years I have observed AUS olympic sailing from a distance. It has changed. It was once seen by the majority of Aus sailors as a novelty activity for people with wealthy friends or parents, who sailed boring heavy boats in small groups away from the main stream sailing clubs. But they had fleets big enough for local selection trials and so not everyone needed to travel to make the olympics.
With professionalism came the oportunity for some other skilled people to get involved, but for a while the boats remained expensive and boring. The stakes got higher and the Govt expectaions got higher too, and so Govt money started to appear.
The Tornado and 49er made the olympic sailing more interesting and the Laser made it much more accessible. With Govt money YA selection policy changed to favour performance in big regattas overseas, so the boats might have been more attractive but getting selected now cost a packet, and since an overseas campaign was way beyond the budget of most, YA money was needed to fill the gap. With limited funds YA (under Govt direction?) now pick prospective winners and concentrate their money where propects of success are highest.
So AUS fleets in Olympic classes are still small, (with exception of Lasers which does seem to be mostly based in the masters categories.) Many local sailors winge that YA spends all it money on a few Olympic sailors without accepting that YA gets its money from Govt etc for just that purpose.
We have three exceptional teams leading up to London, they all worked hard and made big sacrifices, but they all have a special tallent most of us lack. The rest of our squad are pretty good too. We wish them well too.
You poms might think that beating you is the most important thing for AUS but you come only second. Beating New Zealand is our top priority.

some people make good $ from this, sailors however are at the bottom of the food chain.

[cosmicsedso]

[[/quote]

some people make good $ from this, sailors however are at the bottom of the food chain.
[/quote]


Care to elaborate? Who makes good $ from what?

The number one ranked AUS sailors in Olympic classes dont receive enough funding to support a full campaign.
The number 2 ranked teams get virtually nothing and, in the 470 situation get completely IGNORED!
The rest get NOTHING and IGNORED!

Love to know where the next Mat Belcher or Nathan Outteridge is coming from.

[Phil S]

I agree with your comments on Aust Sailing but on wider view we do seem to have a few wealth olympic swimming champions.

[SimonN]

I don't think that anybody is making good money out of the AUS Olympic sailing programme. However, I guess that depends on what people consider "good money".

As for wealthy swimmers or other Olympic competitors, it's all a matter of marketability. For instance, Ian Thorpe was a very marketable name who many will have followed him at the Olympics and beyond, giving him huge "brand recognition". I am not sure that any sailor will ever get that sort of brand recognition. And while there is the big "scandal" about how much money was put into Thorpe's failed Olympic comeback, nobody was making real money out of that. The money those guys get is from outside activities, appearance money etc. I don't see that ever happening in sailing.

[facthunt]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

[Phil S]

While there are few athletes making a living there seem to be a lot of full time professional administrators and coaches in most olympic sports. I suspect that a lot of these make a good living for a much longer period than the athletes they manage. And its these people who are most defensive about keeping our sport in the 5 ring circus. Dropping sailing would make little difference to the truely top level sailors, who all end up in a job with the AC, Volvo or similar to make a living anyway.

The problem with the AOC/YA approach is its like letting all the undergrowth in a forest die off. Once all the tall timber falls there is no forest left.

[cosmicsedso]

While there are few athletes making a living there seem to be a lot of full time professional administrators and coaches in most olympic sports. I suspect that a lot of these make a good living for a much longer period than the athletes they manage. And its these people who are most defensive about keeping our sport in the 5 ring circus. Dropping sailing would make little difference to the truely top level sailors, who all end up in a job with the AC, Volvo or similar to make a living anyway.

The problem with the AOC/YA approach is its like letting all the undergrowth in a forest die off. Once all the tall timber falls there is no forest left.

Well said Sir!
The State based sailing centres in AUS function more on a talent poaching program rather than a talent spotting one.
Without doing ANYTHING by way of prior support, they sign up the young talented i.e. successful, athletes and coerce them into 'high performance' squads. This is often done so that these centres can claim the results and justify the funding/salaries for the bureaucrats who run them. The athletes are usually disengaged from the coaches who got them there in the first place. These local coaches are the backbone of any worthwhile State/National based programs but are NEVER funded, often ignored and even ridiculed by the State based 'high performance' Centres, once the athletes are signed up. The result is that the local coaches get frustrated with the lack of support their athletes now do NOT receive and, in some cases, are unable to even chat with their former charges because of confidentiality agreements the sailors have signed. This is not a sustainable system and the results are now there for all to see.
There are still some very good young sailors coming through, and there are still some very good, local, club based coaches doing their best, but the numbers are thinning appreciably and I personally don't see a positive future for the continued success of AUS sailing at these International levels, unless changes are made. High Performance Sailing Centres were set up in AUS years ago and it would be interesting to see an accounting of the results they have produced.
Disregarding the current crop of ADST members, where are the next ones?

Sail For Gold starts tomorrow at Weymouth, and I'm really looking forward to seeing who is sailing fast, right now, on the Olympic course.

[SimonN]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

How do you work that one out? I have spent enough time talking to Nathan and Ian about these boards when Ian was doing the new moulds for the A Class rudders he now makes and I cannot see any justificatio for your statement. Are you just shit stirring or do you have some evidence?

[GybeSet®]

FFS
Simon someone switched the topic from Ian Thorpe to Mark Thorpe and you continued the counter-argument without taking a breath ? ? ? ? ?


the rest of us were wondering if Ian had a leeway issue

[SimonN]

FFS
Simon someone switched the topic from Ian Thorpe to Mark Thorpe and you continued the counter-argument without taking a breath ? ? ? ? ?


the rest of us were wondering if Ian had a leeway issue

Sorry, typing when distracted and pissed off. I was just really annoyed at the suggestion that somebody was making money out of the system that shouldn't have been, when I really do believe that it didn't happen. Of course it is Mark who makes the foils for the 470, and for my A. However, it doesn't change the fact I hate people who hide behind stupid names making unsubstantiated accusations. Cowards like that are a waste of space and represent all that is bad about the net.

[facthunt]

FFS
Simon someone switched the topic from Ian Thorpe to Mark Thorpe and you continued the counter-argument without taking a breath ? ? ? ? ?


the rest of us were wondering if Ian had a leeway issue

Sorry, typing when distracted and pissed off. I was just really annoyed at the suggestion that somebody was making money out of the system that shouldn't have been, when I really do believe that it didn't happen. Of course it is Mark who makes the foils for the 470, and for my A. However, it doesn't change the fact I hate people who hide behind stupid names making unsubstantiated accusations. Cowards like that are a waste of space and represent all that is bad about the net.

what didnt happen, enlighten us.

[SimonN]

FFS
Simon someone switched the topic from Ian Thorpe to Mark Thorpe and you continued the counter-argument without taking a breath ? ? ? ? ?


the rest of us were wondering if Ian had a leeway issue

Sorry, typing when distracted and pissed off. I was just really annoyed at the suggestion that somebody was making money out of the system that shouldn't have been, when I really do believe that it didn't happen. Of course it is Mark who makes the foils for the 470, and for my A. However, it doesn't change the fact I hate people who hide behind stupid names making unsubstantiated accusations. Cowards like that are a waste of space and represent all that is bad about the net.

what didnt happen, enlighten us.

I think it is you who needs to enlighten us. You are the annonymous gutless keyboard warrior making accusations.

[facthunt]

what do you believe didnt happen?

[Phil S]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

FH This is your comment which none of us seem to comprehend?

[facthunt]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

FH This is your comment which none of us seem to comprehend?

there was funding for the r&d on this find the benifitiaries and you will find someone who made $. i have not and am not suggesting any missapropriation nor making any accusations.
my point was there are people tapping into taxpayer $ but for the most sailors get jack.

simon you are starting to sound like craig thompson.

[SimonN]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

FH This is your comment which none of us seem to comprehend?

there was funding for the r&d on this find the benifitiaries and you will find someone who made $. i have not and am not suggesting any missapropriation nor making any accusations.
my point was there are people tapping into taxpayer $ but for the most sailors get jack.

Maybe you don't realise what you are posting, but as confirmed by Phil, you are implying that somebody made inappropraite money, or are you suggesting that as it was in the name of sport and Australian glory that people should have worked for nothing? Yes, there was a fair amount of money spent on R&D for those boards, but that's because the costs of developing boards that way are expensive. I do not believe that it could have been done cheaper. Your implication, intended or not, is that it could have been and that somebody took money out of the system that shouldn't have been taken out.

[Phil S]

For information of others, Mark Thorpe, several time moth world champion and craftsman dinghy builder, has been building centreboards and rudders for many Aust classes as the core of his business for a very long time. He has been building 470 foils for the Aus team for a few years. Developing top performance within one design rules is a special challenge and it appears some R&D was funded. I do not know anything else in response to Facthunt's question.

Looking at the Bloodaxe website I see that Andy Patterson has been doing the same job for the UK 470 team, You can not keep old moth champions down can you.

[facthunt]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

FH This is your comment which none of us seem to comprehend?

there was funding for the r&d on this find the benifitiaries and you will find someone who made $. i have not and am not suggesting any missapropriation nor making any accusations.
my point was there are people tapping into taxpayer $ but for the most sailors get jack.

Maybe you don't realise what you are posting, but as confirmed by Phil, you are implying that somebody made inappropraite money, or are you suggesting that as it was in the name of sport and Australian glory that people should have worked for nothing? Yes, there was a fair amount of money spent on R&D for those boards, but that's because the costs of developing boards that way are expensive. I do not believe that it could have been done cheaper. Your implication, intended or not, is that it could have been and that somebody took money out of the system that shouldn't have been taken out.

could you please point out which part of phil's post states i have implicated somebody with inappropriate money,it simply reads he does not comprehend it, because he dose not not have the background that i suspect you do.
your post is infact the first to bring any mention inappropriate behavior, your extreme defencive rant volenteers a response to to statments that have not been made, you have already fallen on your own sword.

so would you care to enlighten us what is a "fair amount" of money?

i really think you should stop trying to attach your fucking rubbish to my posts and try to engauge your brain before typing.

[cosmicsedso]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

FH This is your comment which none of us seem to comprehend?

there was funding for the r&d on this find the benifitiaries and you will find someone who made $. i have not and am not suggesting any missapropriation nor making any accusations.
my point was there are people tapping into taxpayer $ but for the most sailors get jack.

Maybe you don't realise what you are posting, but as confirmed by Phil, you are implying that somebody made inappropraite money, or are you suggesting that as it was in the name of sport and Australian glory that people should have worked for nothing? Yes, there was a fair amount of money spent on R&D for those boards, but that's because the costs of developing boards that way are expensive. I do not believe that it could have been done cheaper. Your implication, intended or not, is that it could have been and that somebody took money out of the system that shouldn't have been taken out.

could you please point out which part of phil's post states i have implicated somebody with inappropriate money,it simply reads he does not comprehend it, because he dose not not have the background that i suspect you do.
your post is infact the first to bring any mention inappropriate behavior, your extreme defencive rant volenteers a response to to statments that have not been made, you have already fallen on your own sword.

so would you care to enlighten us what is a "fair amount" of money?

i really think you should stop trying to attach your fucking rubbish to my posts and try to engauge your brain before typing.

Are you by any chance related to Snaggles?

[cosmicsedso]

Very interesting first day at Sail for Gold.
Seems the weather wasn't/isn't normally like that..

[bye bye]

The weather is frequently like that this time of year. It's also frequently quite windy too.

[High Flow]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

FH This is your comment which none of us seem to comprehend?

there was funding for the r&d on this find the benifitiaries and you will find someone who made $. i have not and am not suggesting any missapropriation nor making any accusations.
my point was there are people tapping into taxpayer $ but for the most sailors get jack.

Maybe you don't realise what you are posting, but as confirmed by Phil, you are implying that somebody made inappropraite money, or are you suggesting that as it was in the name of sport and Australian glory that people should have worked for nothing? Yes, there was a fair amount of money spent on R&D for those boards, but that's because the costs of developing boards that way are expensive. I do not believe that it could have been done cheaper. Your implication, intended or not, is that it could have been and that somebody took money out of the system that shouldn't have been taken out.

could you please point out which part of phil's post states i have implicated somebody with inappropriate money,it simply reads he does not comprehend it, because he dose not not have the background that i suspect you do.
your post is infact the first to bring any mention inappropriate behavior, your extreme defencive rant volenteers a response to to statments that have not been made, you have already fallen on your own sword.

so would you care to enlighten us what is a "fair amount" of money?

i really think you should stop trying to attach your fucking rubbish to my posts and try to engauge your brain before typing.

what's the deal? you're reading something you want to read.
what he is saying:
money is there.
some people make money
sailors make no money.

no word about inappropriate money. not in "our world" at least. but still they sailors don't get anything.
so obviously sailors a wiling to sail for years without money to become winning sailors, whereas boat builders are not willing to develop winning boats without money.
so who has the benefit and who is the idiot in this game?
it's wrong to say that there is no money in olympic sailing. but not for the sailor himself (unless for very very few: most con tries give good money for an olympic gold medal).

you please enlighten us if that is fair or not?
obviously it is not, but it's not about being fair in the first place. it's about being olympic medalist. that's all it's about.
so if you find an idiot who is willing to waste several of his years to try to become that olympic champion and not earn a cent getting there, that's ok. obviously there are enough. but that doesn't make it fair.
remember: only one can be the champion. all others (how many per olympic gold medal?) just wasted those years.
benefit: 0
carrer: 0
money: 0
glory: 0
it's definitely stupid and definitely not fair.

[clooless]

.... the GBR team has the money to fund the talent pool to create the depth of crews to support the "chosen".

This is an interesting point. Money certainly plays a part, but IMO, the real strength of the program didn't take a lot of money and is down to one man, Jim Saltonstall. He built the youth program in the days before the money came on line. He was lucky to have the numbers but it is what he did with the juniors that made the difference. He found the key to giving his squad members the skills they would need for Olympic glory so that when they had the opportunity, they could take it. The reason why the money has worked is because the sailors were ready. So while I do say money is important, it is only one piece of the jigsaw and I believe that people over simplify the reasons for Team GBR's success.

Spot on IMO, as a sometime-UK-resident, GBR supporter and past competitor of some of the GBR guys now, I can assure you the squad system was alive and kicking, well before lottery funding kicked in. Salt 'n shake has been organiser and mentor extraordinair over the years.

When the money came, the RYA did a good job, IMO, of setting up a small, focused group of invdividuals to manage the show, who have since stayed together through several campaigns (similar to cycling and rowing btw). Now you've got the likes of JG able to coach the 470 girls, he's got the experience of at least two O-cycles already, and Saskia is now newbie either. Lots of damp, miserable winter mornings at Rutland and Grafham resevoirs in Oppys, Toppers, Lasers, Cadets, Mirrors and 420s behind all of these guys.

The money has been significant in two ways; firstly it enabled those ready to take the opportunity to have the backing and gear to focus on it and take it, secondly it's been very well MANAGED (ruthlessly some might say) to ensure no one gets 'paid to be average' which is unfortunately not the case is some of the other Olympic events where similar funding has been lavished on average GB competitors who've made a living out of going out in the quarters/semis (or so it seems from afar). Suprising really, when there is on hand the GBR sailing, rowing and cycling teams to see the 'recipe' for success.


Yes, funding is vital, but the management of the funding and who and how it gets given out is far more important than the amount.

Lookin forward to Weymouth....

[bye bye]

Arguably if other sports weren't so average (including rowing) by comparison the cycling team wouldn't be what it is. They have used other sports as a proving ground and then stepped in and said to those with the talent "come with us, we take it as seriously as you do and will put you on the podium". By comparison sailing still has a way to go in terms of being a production line as this is only the second generation of sailing medal winners.

[Icedtea]

Arguably if other sports weren't so average (including rowing) by comparison the cycling team wouldn't be what it is. They have used other sports as a proving ground and then stepped in and said to those with the talent "come with us, we take it as seriously as you do and will put you on the podium". By comparison sailing still has a way to go in terms of being a production line as this is only the second generation of sailing medal winners.

Are you suggesting they take athletes from other sports and put them where they can win medals?

Interesting tactic, but not so sure would it work in sailing as it's just so technical?

[bye bye]

That's exactly what they do. Jason Queally was a water polo player and Rebeca Romero an Olympic silver medal rower.

[SimonN]

It might well work in a sport that is all about physical performance, but there are far more limitations when applied to sailing. There have been cases of rowers being used as grinders, but even then, most don't actually make the transition because there is more to grinding than just muscle power. A friend of mine, ex olympic rower, was drafted into the British challenge for 1987 with 2 others and he was the only one that made the grade. He said the hard part was being able to anticipate what the helm was going to do in close quarters, particularly in pre starts and dial ups. If you waited for it to happen, you were too late so you had to start grinding in anticipation. Greg Searle was drafted in for 2002, but I believe never really made the grade.

Back in the mid 1980's I was approached (through my brother who was an international rower) by an ex Olympic rower who wanted to get into competitive sailing. We decided to give it a try in 505's and we spent a long winter training 3 times a weel. To be fair, he got very good as a crew and our boat handling was, for the most part, exceptional. However, there were 2 problems. When things went wrong, he had no natural understanding of how to put it right or what to do, so minor SNAFU's became pretty major. The other issue was that I like to sail with somebody who feeds me lots of info and who can discuss what we are doing. I don't work as well when it is only me doing tactics, or when I leave it totally to the crew. Given more time, maybe he would have got there but after 18 months, we both realised it wasn't going to happen even though we were getting half decent results. He wanted to win even more than me. I couldn't sail one event and he crewed for somebody else and it was seriously bad, while a few weeks later he wasn't available and I won with somebody else. It was an eye opener for both of us.

Another attempt at taking a superb sports person and getting them to transition into sailing was done by the Singapore Olympic 470 team. They had aproblem finding people the right size to crew so recruited a fantastic sportman (and special ops Singapore Army!). Fit, fast and smart, but in the end after 4 years they decided he was too much of a risk and went with an experienced sailor.

Now, i accept those are just a few examples, but my gut feel is that world class performance in sailing comes not just from skill but also from experience, and that unfortunately, there is no short cut for that experience. That is why the average age for medal winners in sailing is higher than many other sports.

Anybody else got anacdotal stories?

[fireball]

Anybody else got anacdotal stories?

An interesting story.

I've represented my country in 2 sports - including sailing - so I know a little about switching sports.

In my case, however, I sailed as a young kid and only gave it up competitively from age 15 to around 25 while I was pursuing my other sport. I still went sailing for fun though: mainly lasers and windsurfers. When I got back into competitive sailing it took me a couple of years to get back up to speed. You forget things and you have missed a lot of development time and you need to catch up.

I think that if you hadn't sailed much before then it would take many years to get up to speed. Sailing is a highly technical discipline and there are a lot of areas to cover: boat handling, sail trim, meteorology, race tactics and strategy. You need to experience a lot of different conditions and race situations to build up your experience so you can react quickly in competitive situations.

This would IMHO put sailing in the too hard basket as a second career.

[ojfd]

...............
Anybody else got anacdotal stories?

Valentin Mankin's crew in Star class was "zilch" at the time he was picked up . He was doing his mandatory time in the navy and one day he was sent to work in the near-by military yacht club. The guy was sweeping territory when Mankin first saw him. The rest, as they say, is history.

[RobG]

[switching disciplines] might well work in a sport that is all about physical performance, but there are far more limitations when applied to sailing.

There have been some great successes in other sports based on talent spotting programs, e.g. cycling, rowing and even aerial skiing. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that just because someone is athletic that they can reach the top level in any sport, or that just because they are a great gymnast that they will make a great 49er crew.

They still need a suitable combination of all the required attributes, plus a coach who can recognise potential and aptitude and who can develop and implement a training program that maximises performance.

So at the ground level, you must have a program that gets enough young bodies on the water to find the talent. There must be similar programs or development opportunities for coaches and team managers, and for administrators to run the show and raise the money. Having the right people in all the right places is fundamental to success.

The final piece in the puzzle (which actually comes first) is to have a goal on which everyone can focus and by which success can be measured.

[SimonN]

So at the ground level, you must have a program that gets enough young bodies on the water to find the talent. There must be similar programs or development opportunities for coaches and team managers, and for administrators to run the show and raise the money. Having the right people in all the right places is fundamental to success.

The final piece in the puzzle (which actually comes first) is to have a goal on which everyone can focus and by which success can be measured.

Talk about hitting the nail on the head. I ahve always maintained that the current Team GBR success starts there. The challenge is how to make that work in Oz. And it isn't just about nationally organised squads. In the UK, you have so many levels of activity. At the basic level, you have club sailing. From there, you might move up to open meetings (in Oz they are called inter-clubs). I haven't got figures, but my guess would be that in youth classes, 1 in 10 go from club level to regular open meetings. The real strength of the open meeting circuit is that in the popular classes, there is probably one event every 2 weeks or even 3 events in every 4 weeks. And these events get good turn outs. Then, above that level, you get national squads. Consider that the Optimist UK national championships are expecting 500 boats. Now that is getting young bodies on the water. And the numbers at other youth classes like 29er and Cadet are equally impressive.

One might say that given numbers, Team AUS is doing pretty well, but it shows what hurdles need to be overcome to drive it to even higher levels.

[I'moutahere]

what's the deal? you're reading something you want to read.
what he is saying:
money is there.
some people make money
sailors make no money.

no word about inappropriate money. not in "our world" at least. but still they sailors don't get anything.
so obviously sailors a wiling to sail for years without money to become winning sailors, whereas boat builders are not willing to develop winning boats without money.
so who has the benefit and who is the idiot in this game?
it's wrong to say that there is no money in olympic sailing. but not for the sailor himself (unless for very very few: most con tries give good money for an olympic gold medal).

you please enlighten us if that is fair or not?
obviously it is not, but it's not about being fair in the first place. it's about being olympic medalist. that's all it's about.
so if you find an idiot who is willing to waste several of his years to try to become that olympic champion and not earn a cent getting there, that's ok. obviously there are enough. but that doesn't make it fair.
remember: only one can be the champion. all others (how many per olympic gold medal?) just wasted those years.
benefit: 0
carrer: 0
money: 0
glory: 0
it's definitely stupid and definitely not fair.

I never knew boatbuilding was an Olympic sport.

[High Flow]

I never knew boatbuilding was an Olympic sport.

neither did i
who said so?

[I'moutahere]

I never knew boatbuilding was an Olympic sport.

neither did i
who said so?

You inferred that boatbuilders should work for nothing to win medals....

whereas boat builders are not willing to develop winning boats without money.

[cosmicsedso]

someone made $ out of thorpe's centreboard, dont think it was thorpe.

How long ago was this?

[cosmicsedso]

So the Sail for Gold has been run and won!!
What did we learn?
The 2 best Mens 470 crews in the World are AUS and GBR.
NZL 470's are challenging. What has happened to the FRA 470 sailors?
Ben Ainslie can be beaten - but only by another GBR sailor or 3!
AUS rules supreme in the Laser class.
Has Nathan Outteridge chased off his 2008 nightmare?
IRL stars in Stars.
Was this an indicator of whats to come at the Olympics or, as Simon says, are some of them foxing?

[bye bye]

Some of them certainly claim to have been foxing!

SMOD Olympic classes are a recent thing. Boat building has always been part of the game.

(and if it blows IRL will win gold in the laser radial)

[oregami]

You ask a couple of questions so I will do my best to answer.

As you say, this is only my opinion. So here's a question. How many members of Team GBR sailed at Venice in the AC45's? Even if the Finns weren't racing, do you think that Ainslie would have gone? Perc wasn't there. I have talked to Nathan about this and his answer is that he wants to do other things to keep it fresh in the 49er. Fair enough, you might say, but I am more concerned that Team GBR seem to manage to keep it fresh and still do a lot more Olympic specific sailing. Then there is the issue of time spent in Weymouth. Again, Nathan and Tom would say that they are proven winners there but i think that Team GBR would argue that you simply cannot spend too much time at the Olympic venue. They are already well into their planning and recon for Brazil, although admittedly they haven't sent sailors there yet.

I also put "mistakes" the way I did because some of the factors are outside of their control. For instance, Nathan doesn't have a strong Australian 49er squad with which to train regularly which means he trains with other countries. I believe that while that is useful, it is never as good as training with guys who are on the same side.

As for the issue of the head coach being able to influence the overall program, I would argue that Victor is a fantastic 470 coach because of his in depth understanding of the issues that make a 470 fast. Those issues don't translate to a 49er. For instance, I am told that Victor has his own special ways that you carry out every manouver and that he is able to get the crews he coaches to be better boat handlers than the others. There is also their technical program in the 470 - the Aussies have the best foils and nobody else can get their hands on them. Don't get me wrong, the sailors are great, but Victor gives them the tools that allows them to shine.

The technical side might also be a matter of money. 470 development is relatively cheap compared with, say, Finn masts or the technical side of Stars. For China, the Brits and Yanks each spent 100's of 1000's of dollars on the technical side. The Brits developed a hullshape with JuanK that is an absolute winner, while the Yanks developed a hullshape that was a total dog except in very light winds, proving that it is not just having the money but knowing what to do with it.

I have now probably hexed Team GBR for the upcoming Olympics, but they do still set the standard for an Olympic sailing team and will have done more than any other team to put their sailors in the best position to win medals. What happens on the day is another matter, but Sparky and his team will know that on the first day of the regatta, they have done all they can and given their guys the best chance possible. One thing I hear so often from other teams is that they have done all they can, given the (limited) resources at their disposal. You won't here that from Team GBR.

Sorry...... couldn't resist it.......

[SimonN]

You ask a couple of questions so I will do my best to answer.

As you say, this is only my opinion. So here's a question. How many members of Team GBR sailed at Venice in the AC45's? Even if the Finns weren't racing, do you think that Ainslie would have gone? Perc wasn't there. I have talked to Nathan about this and his answer is that he wants to do other things to keep it fresh in the 49er. Fair enough, you might say, but I am more concerned that Team GBR seem to manage to keep it fresh and still do a lot more Olympic specific sailing. Then there is the issue of time spent in Weymouth. Again, Nathan and Tom would say that they are proven winners there but i think that Team GBR would argue that you simply cannot spend too much time at the Olympic venue. They are already well into their planning and recon for Brazil, although admittedly they haven't sent sailors there yet.

I also put "mistakes" the way I did because some of the factors are outside of their control. For instance, Nathan doesn't have a strong Australian 49er squad with which to train regularly which means he trains with other countries. I believe that while that is useful, it is never as good as training with guys who are on the same side.

As for the issue of the head coach being able to influence the overall program, I would argue that Victor is a fantastic 470 coach because of his in depth understanding of the issues that make a 470 fast. Those issues don't translate to a 49er. For instance, I am told that Victor has his own special ways that you carry out every manouver and that he is able to get the crews he coaches to be better boat handlers than the others. There is also their technical program in the 470 - the Aussies have the best foils and nobody else can get their hands on them. Don't get me wrong, the sailors are great, but Victor gives them the tools that allows them to shine.

The technical side might also be a matter of money. 470 development is relatively cheap compared with, say, Finn masts or the technical side of Stars. For China, the Brits and Yanks each spent 100's of 1000's of dollars on the technical side. The Brits developed a hullshape with JuanK that is an absolute winner, while the Yanks developed a hullshape that was a total dog except in very light winds, proving that it is not just having the money but knowing what to do with it.

I have now probably hexed Team GBR for the upcoming Olympics, but they do still set the standard for an Olympic sailing team and will have done more than any other team to put their sailors in the best position to win medals. What happens on the day is another matter, but Sparky and his team will know that on the first day of the regatta, they have done all they can and given their guys the best chance possible. One thing I hear so often from other teams is that they have done all they can, given the (limited) resources at their disposal. You won't here that from Team GBR.

Sorry...... couldn't resist it.......

I don't mind as I am delighted for Nathan, Goobs and Tom, in particular. I am still amazed at some of the things that went on and which didn't stop the guys from winning, but would never have happened in Team GBR. Just one example. For the 2000 games, a lot of work was done on the effects of jet lag and it was found that it took a minimum of 11 days from arrival for the body to fully recover. Nathan left Oz 10 days before his first race and arrived 9 days before. Clearly, he still won so it cannot have had that much of an effect, although it should be noted he got stronger during the regatta.

For this Olympics, Team AUS did a great job with a great group of sailors. They managed to find ways of gettuing the best out of their sailors when it mattered. I know Team GBR are pretty happy to end up having won medals in more classes than any othe country (for the 4th Olympicvs running), so all told, it's about the perfect out come for me! In the end, the best sailors won (although I am still smarting over the Star medal race!).

[GybeSet®]

but what I do know is that no mmber of Team GBR would run their campaigns the way the likes of Tom Slingsby and Nathan Outteridge run theirs.

please don't tell your Pommy mates

silver is not what we're about

[SimonN]

but what I do know is that no mmber of Team GBR would run their campaigns the way the likes of Tom Slingsby and Nathan Outteridge run theirs.

please don't tell your Pommy mates

silver is not what we're about

And I stick by most of that. The difference between gold and silver at this regatta has been small, but good on the people who won when it counted. I really don't want to say too much or it might seem like sour grapes, which it certain isn't because I really am very pleased for Tom, Nathan and Goobs. There is nothing you can take away from their preformances which have been truly brilliant. As I posted elsewhere, before this was dragged out of the ark, well done Team AUS

[oregami]

Yeah... as I said.... I couldn't resist the dig!!!
(social media never forgets)

The Poms have performed well and obviously have a good system in place.

The 3 Aussie golds all went in as world champs so were always going to be pretty competitive.

If the girls perform well today ....it's been an outstanding effort from our sailors.