718 replies to this topic

[josselin]

Monohull developpement will not desapear with OD for the VOR or event for the Imoca. if you look at Mini class or Class 40 they are pushing the boundaries more that the big boats in terms of developpement. Imoca or VOr just copied what was tried and validated in smaller dimension.

Same happen with multis : the Orma 60 where a scale up of formule40 in the 80's ( when VPLP introduiced a great tri) Now we move to MOD70 and the multi 50 are still here to push the design. Ac45 and AC72 are learning from Acat and Ccat.

I do think the OD for the VOR is less an issue for the sustainability of the race & VOR Class than the organisation of the race itself. You have OD races with quite "old design" that have a huge level of competition, is it not what Knut is looking for? The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Final point, I find that sailing a monohull of 15 tonnes at 10/20 knots is a bit dinausaurus way of sailing when you could sail 8 tonnes at 20/35knots in less destructive conditions on multis... go multi Knut!! Has Farr ever signed a multi hull?

[schakel]

Monohull developpement will not desapear with OD for the VOR or event for the Imoca. if you look at Mini class or Class 40 they are pushing the boundaries more that the big boats in terms of developpement. Imoca or VOr just copied what was tried and validated in smaller dimension.

Same happen with multis : the Orma 60 where a scale up of formule40 in the 80's ( when VPLP introduiced a great tri) Now we move to MOD70 and the multi 50 are still here to push the design. Ac45 and AC72 are learning from Acat and Ccat.

I do think the OD for the VOR is less an issue for the sustainability of the race & VOR Class than the organisation of the race itself. You have OD races with quite "old design" that have a huge level of competition, is it not what Knut is looking for? The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Final point, I find that sailing a monohull of 15 tonnes at 10/20 knots is a bit dinausaurus way of sailing when you could sail 8 tonnes at 20/35knots in less destructive conditions on multis... go multi Knut!! Has Farr ever signed a multi hull?

Where do I see a 10 meter keel in Figaro 2?
Or do you mean the same keel as they use on ten meter class?
Even then it's not correct.
But I am sure you have a picture of a ten meter class yacht with the same keel as the Beneteau Figaro 2

Attached Files

•  Figaro 2.jpg   20.54K   42 downloads
•  10 meter class keel.jpg   28.14K   42 downloads

[Wess]

No, we understand each other perfectly. We just happen to disagree. You stated that development classes reduce barrier to entry. I disagree and believe OD does does that and development classes raise or increases the barrier to entry. You talk about OD and stagnation. I disagree and believe the growth the sport is experiencing is in OD classes.

No misunderstanding. Just different opinions.

Once again, yes, you completely totally and utterly misunderstand me. Re-re-read what I wrote.

Since you probably still won't get it right, what I said is that the technological developments (headsail furlers for example) that have come out of the development classes reduce barriers to entry. Not the classes themselves. This is to the benefit of sailing as a whole. All forms of sailing, at all levels, one design included (ok, fine, maybe not your laser so much). You can disagree with that, but then you would clearly be an idiot.

I did not say OD causes stagnation or is a problem in and of itself. I am not anti OD. Re-re-read what I wrote. The problem I see is that with EVERY class absolutely EVERYWHERE going OD we are at the point where development classes may well be all but extinct shortly. I do not argue that this is a wrong choice for any particular class to make. However, the cumulative impact this will have on the continued development of sailing technology is the stagnation I was talking about and over the long term this will hurt sailing as a whole. This was the point I was trying to make with my whole thing of imagine how sailing as a whole would be doing today if this OD craze had swept through 40 years ago, leaving us largely with late 70s era technology as the cutting edge today. You can disagree with that too if you want. But you might still be an idiot.

Sooner or later you will have to pick one position and stick with it.

So now your problem is that "EVERY class absolutely EVERYWHERE going OD..." All that from the Volvo and "over the long term this will hurt sailing as a whole." Uh, wow! Holy over-reaction, Batman!

So please do enlighten little ole idiot me. Is this 6 boat fleet of Volvo the tipping point for the sky to fall? Will the Moth class suddenly die not too? How about A-cats? Maybe the Little America's Cup? Or the actual America's Cup - you know - the one with the giant wings, boards and multihulls... all born out of the litle America's Cup? Will the development of the RTW multihulls die too? How about the innovation that got those huge boats around the world single handed or lightly crewed... is this the death of that too?

I am kinda curious see because it seems that most any of these classes have introduced far more innovation to sailing than the Volvo ever has or ever will.

But please, do go on about how the sky is falling.

Please excuse me though as I need to get off the computer and actually go sailing seeing how the sport is about to die any moment now due to the Volvo decision.

Right after I get my helmet.

Geesh, I joke but come on...

Wess

Dude, let go of the classes. Seriously. Just stop trying to tie what I say to a particular class or group of classes. Stop it right fucking now. You started this by asking what Steve Clark meant about sailing continuing to shoot itself in the foot. I took it upon myself to try and clarify what I thought he meant. You seem to stubbornly refuse to get or acknowledge that point so yes, at this point I do believe you are an idiot. I do not believe the sky is falling nor have I changed my position at all, only tried to elaborate on it for the sake of helping you understand a concern that some people such as Steve (if I got his meaning right) and I carry. I am done trying to beat understanding into the unwilling so go sail and enjoy that technology you are using without even needing to think about it.

Styop? Why? This just keeps getting better. Now you speak for Steve. Well, I have met Steve and talked to Steve and you, sir, are no Steve! Again, I joke...

And no I will not let go of the classes because ultimately this is about a class decision. Duh.

What you apparently can not see or grasp is that this shift in the Volvo will have zero impact on sailing, other than to make the Volvo a better race unless yu hapen to be an arm chair critic who likes designer contests.

And there is no bigger trend or death spiral of development classes and even if there was stagnation would not be an issue. But since this concrns you I offer that classes do matter in the discussion.

Classes matter because there are many classes - healthy classes of monohulls, multihulls and dinghies, in-shore and off shore, that do so much more to advance the cause of sailing and avoid the stagnation you reference than Volvo ever has or ever will.

Regards,

Wess

[DickDastardly]

Monohull developpement will not desapear with OD for the VOR or event for the Imoca. if you look at Mini class or Class 40 they are pushing the boundaries more that the big boats in terms of developpement. Imoca or VOr just copied what was tried and validated in smaller dimension.

Same happen with multis : the Orma 60 where a scale up of formule40 in the 80's ( when VPLP introduiced a great tri) Now we move to MOD70 and the multi 50 are still here to push the design. Ac45 and AC72 are learning from Acat and Ccat.

I do think the OD for the VOR is less an issue for the sustainability of the race & VOR Class than the organisation of the race itself. You have OD races with quite "old design" that have a huge level of competition, is it not what Knut is looking for? The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Final point, I find that sailing a monohull of 15 tonnes at 10/20 knots is a bit dinausaurus way of sailing when you could sail 8 tonnes at 20/35knots in less destructive conditions on multis... go multi Knut!! Has Farr ever signed a multi hull?

Where do I see a 10 meter keel in Figaro 2?
Or do you mean the same keel as they use on ten meter class?
Even then it's not correct.
But I am sure you have a picture of a ten meter class yacht with the same keel as the Beneteau Figaro 2

Don't be an asshole. It's great to get contributions from non-english speakers and tearing them down because their language is a bit clunky just sucks. Yours isn't great either. I had no trouble making sense of his post at all.

[Heriberto]

What is this Whitbread 60 one design your talking about?

You are right, the W60-V60 was not one design, just 98% Farr. My bad. Oh no. I must be wrong about everything.

Don't worry, one design will cure everything, it'll be fast, never break, and cheaper than a JCPenney suit. Just leave it to Farr and his building cartel. They'll fix it. They fix everything. Just ask Wess, he'll explain how great one design is. No barrier to entry at all, just write a modest check and you are already a winner.

[GBH]

One of the problems they will find when trying to attract major sponsors to the party, if it does go OD, is that the one thing you can't offer the sponsor is the possibility that with ( possibly the sponsor's ) technology you can produce a faster boat than the rest. That's what drives yacht development, and take that away and its going to be a much harder sell to a very different set of sponsors.

I think there's a parallel here with what happened to the Admirals Cup, in that the push was to make it more accessible to less wealthy owners, and as it went to level rating and then the Mumm 36's came in, the real players that pushed the game on figured there was no point and in particular " they didn't want to play in the same field with people that could only afford a Mumm 36" !! not my words, I borrowed those from elsewhere.

lack of boats is very simple - there's very little sponsorship money around. getting the stopovers to pay for it - well then you might as well put the boats on a ship and send them around on that. Oh yes, they've already done that - and it will be a travesty if the winning boat ends up as one that has received outside assistance let alone been parked on ship for part of the race.

[The Frog]

It pains me to confirm that the One Design is a done deal (and has been for quite some time).

[PonderousPelican]

It pains me to confirm that the One Design is a done deal (and has been for quite some time).

The Farging Bastages!

[couchsurfer]

It pains me to confirm that the One Design is a done deal (and has been for quite some time).

...any more details??

[Heriberto]

And the race just became 100% less interesting. I hope it survives, or is supplanted by a fully-crewed race that is actually interesting. Maybe in the existing fleet of VOR70's....

[coxcreek]

Actually Farr did design a multihull - when he was just starting off as an apprentice to Jim Young: Bruce Farr at this early stage of his designing career was also involved with A Class catamarans and be drew and built Rascal for Douglas Haig. This had chined hulls in the after sections that curved into rounded shapes then narrowed to very fine entries with a knuckle. Although built with Farr’s expertise with carefully aligned layers of 1/10^th plywood, these frame and stringer constructed hulls were heavier than the 38 lb French carvel Auckland group platforms.

[josselin]

I do think the OD for the VOR is less an issue for the sustainability of the race & VOR Class than the organisation of the race itself. You have OD races with quite "old design" that have a huge level of competition, is it not what Knut is looking for? The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Where do I see a 10 meter keel in Figaro 2?
Or do you mean the same keel as they use on ten meter class?
Even then it's not correct.
But I am sure you have a picture of a ten meter class yacht with the same keel as the Beneteau Figaro 2

Don't be an asshole. It's great to get contributions from non-english speakers and tearing them down because their language is a bit clunky just sucks. Yours isn't great either. I had no trouble making sense of his post at all.

Thanks, my point was just that the figaro was 10m long and had no canting keel.

That is true that the VOR 70 are now quite close and even without a one design the seed difference is quite marginal.

An interesting calculation about the one design idea would be to quantify the cost for design + boat in proportion of the full budget, maybe the number of stopover have far more cost impact than the design class of the boat no?

[DickDastardly]

I do think the OD for the VOR is less an issue for the sustainability of the race & VOR Class than the organisation of the race itself. You have OD races with quite "old design" that have a huge level of competition, is it not what Knut is looking for? The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Where do I see a 10 meter keel in Figaro 2?
Or do you mean the same keel as they use on ten meter class?
Even then it's not correct.
But I am sure you have a picture of a ten meter class yacht with the same keel as the Beneteau Figaro 2

Don't be an asshole. It's great to get contributions from non-english speakers and tearing them down because their language is a bit clunky just sucks. Yours isn't great either. I had no trouble making sense of his post at all.

Thanks, my point was just that the figaro was 10m long and had no canting keel.

That is true that the VOR 70 are now quite close and even without a one design the seed difference is quite marginal.

An interesting calculation about the one design idea would be to quantify the cost for design + boat in proportion of the full budget, maybe the number of stopover have far more cost impact than the design class of the boat no?

Possibly. Another angle might be to consider whether the teams need to own the boats at all. The race organisers could arguably own the fleet with the teams paying for the operational costs and all the rest of the items.

[haligonian winterr]

I do think the OD for the VOR is less an issue for the sustainability of the race & VOR Class than the organisation of the race itself. You have OD races with quite "old design" that have a huge level of competition, is it not what Knut is looking for? The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Where do I see a 10 meter keel in Figaro 2?
Or do you mean the same keel as they use on ten meter class?
Even then it's not correct.
But I am sure you have a picture of a ten meter class yacht with the same keel as the Beneteau Figaro 2

Don't be an asshole. It's great to get contributions from non-english speakers and tearing them down because their language is a bit clunky just sucks. Yours isn't great either. I had no trouble making sense of his post at all.

Thanks, my point was just that the figaro was 10m long and had no canting keel.

That is true that the VOR 70 are now quite close and even without a one design the seed difference is quite marginal.

An interesting calculation about the one design idea would be to quantify the cost for design + boat in proportion of the full budget, maybe the number of stopover have far more cost impact than the design class of the boat no?

I remember reading a comment from Juan K somewhere along the lines of the box rule actually restricting the advancements that could be made in the class, and that because of those restrictions formed by the current box rule (I think statement was made after the Gen 2 boats were built/raced), every designer was essentially creating a one design boat, with slight differences in them of course.

Interesting that a comment he made a few years ago is essentially coming true.

HW

[stumbler]

Why does it have to be either/or? Means of containing costs are at their disposal without going to one design. In fact, those cost containment features must be in place with one design as well or it remains, as you describe, a "turn a fire hose of money at your problems" event.

Can anyone point to a bargain basement program winning any one design fleet of any consequence? The big bucks are the only contenders. After you have the big bucks, then you can contend.

I think we're actually more in agreement here than not - I don't think it is an either/or. I think there are a variety of ways to solve this. They all involve cost containment. I happen to think that one-design will help in that area more than you do, but I think we're both fairly clear on the fact that something must change and both fairly flexible about how to make that happen.

Couldn't there be a way to create a kind of "one design development class"? If it evolves every three years to reflect advancements both from outside the class and possibly even from shared development within it?

I'm very open to discussion on the topic - although the rumor mill is spinning heavily that this is a moot point and the decision is made - I just continue to find it odd how visceral some people's reactions to a one design approach seems to be.

Anyway, something's got to give here. I hope they make the right decision to continue to improve the race for 2014. I will remain a fan regardless.

[Icedtea]

Having read all of this I remain to be convinced that the one design option will either significantly reduce costs or increase participation in the Volvo.

I get the impression that Knut and the boys' only aim is to get the general public more interested in sailing, well not sailing in general, just the Volvo, and that's what makes them money. Fair enough, but 99.999999999999999% of the non-sailing public couldn't give a fuck either way what it's sailed in, so why don't they take care of that .00000001% and the entire sailing community who really do give a fuck?

I think stick with the seventies, but make them a bit stronger. Or if they must change, go with the IMOCA 60s.

[Icedtea]

Having read all of this I remain to be convinced that the one design option will either significantly reduce costs or increase participation in the Volvo.

I get the impression that Knut and the boys' only aim is to get the general public more interested in sailing, well not sailing in general, just the Volvo, and that's what makes them money. Fair enough, but 99.999999999999999% of the non-sailing public couldn't give a fuck either way what it's sailed in, so why don't they take care of that .00000001% and the entire sailing community who really do give a fuck?

I think stick with the seventies, but make them a bit stronger. Or if they must change, go with the IMOCA 60s.

[oddsailor]

If the VOR is truly interested in cutting costs, they should impose a spending limit on the whole campaign that each competitor is allowed to use. How they split it among crew/shore/boat/logistics becomes each teams problem, but they can't go over a certain limit or start to be handicapped by points. An OD boat won't do anything for teams that don't have the millions to burn on 2 years salaries for crew, etc.

As far as the OD vs development classes, I think we're starting to see that there is a natural tendency for the small classes to go full dev and with the larger and larger classes to become increasingly OD. It makes financial and R&D sense, as it starts to resemble an actual development cycle: come up with an idea, test it on a small scale version, refine it, scale it up gradually until the final 'production' big version. If we take the moth, i14 and 650s to be the small scale test and the big version to be the new VOR boats with the 40s, 52s and imoca 60s the in-betweens it's starting to look like real-life development from idea to 'production'. And there is nothing wrong with that.

There are 2 ways I see VOR maintaining OD across the fleet for each race but allowing development to take place between races:
1. VOR updating the 'OD' rules from race to race - look at the Viper or 505 classes, for example, where keel and spars have been updated over the years. This could become outdated after a while since the hulls will be the limiting factors, but as with the 505, Viper and even the Imoca 60s, there are 10+ year old boats that are still competitive and they aren't slow! There is something to be said for optimization over time (just look at Sanya, which is achieving 105-110% over it's design speeds)
2. VOR becomes the 'dealer', where all the boats are 'leased' from VOR for each race. This will allow VOR to change the boats from race-to-race without having to worry about OD status of the older boats. This will open the the VOR to TONS of potential people that would be able to afford getting into the race. The 'old' boats could be the start of a yearly World Series similar to Xtreme which are in-port focused (we'd all go, and it'd create a LOT of interest for the real thing when they're in the South Pacific). This coupled with a maximum spend per campaign could bring a LOT of teams into the race who are currently not entertaining it. How about a couple RedBull, HugoBoss and some other ones?

[dumper]

Monohull developpement will not desapear with OD for the VOR or event for the Imoca. if you look at Mini class or Class 40 they are pushing the boundaries more that the big boats in terms of developpement. Imoca or VOr just copied what was tried and validated in smaller dimension.

Same happen with multis : the Orma 60 where a scale up of formule40 in the 80's ( when VPLP introduiced a great tri) Now we move to MOD70 and the multi 50 are still here to push the design. Ac45 and AC72 are learning from Acat and Ccat.

I do think the OD for the VOR is less an issue for the sustainability of the race & VOR Class than the organisation of the race itself. You have OD races with quite "old design" that have a huge level of competition, is it not what Knut is looking for? The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Final point, I find that sailing a monohull of 15 tonnes at 10/20 knots is a bit dinausaurus way of sailing when you could sail 8 tonnes at 20/35knots in less destructive conditions on multis... go multi Knut!! Has Farr ever signed a multi hull?

Where do I see a 10 meter keel in Figaro 2?
Or do you mean the same keel as they use on ten meter class?
Even then it's not correct.
But I am sure you have a picture of a ten meter class yacht with the same keel as the Beneteau Figaro 2

i think he meant length

[Mexican]

Snip...

The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m fixed keel no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker. The guy can really push hard and as mentionned in the past week in the AG2R race : no boat failure in the full fleet event with the huge conditions they faced. OD is a huge sucess there!

Final point, I find that sailing a monohull of 15 tonnes at 10/20 knots is a bit dinausaurus way of sailing when you could sail 8 tonnes at 20/35knots in less destructive conditions on multis... go multi Knut!! Has Farr ever signed a multi hull?

Where do I see a 10 meter keel in Figaro 2?
Or do you mean the same keel as they use on ten meter class?
Even then it's not correct.
But I am sure you have a picture of a ten meter class yacht with the same keel as the Beneteau Figaro 2

i think he meant length

Punctuation is a wonderful thing... The figaro 2 is a good example : 10 m, fixed keel, no carbon mast and symetric spinnaker.

Mex

[umpire]

From another thread Gavin Brady talks about Beau Geste breakingup, and VOR want to go with Farr!!!

[Potter]

From another thread Gavin Brady talks about Beau Geste breakingup, and VOR want to go with Farr!!!

Look at Bounder and you would not go with Juan K. What an irrelevant comment.

[Who's your daddy]

It pains me to confirm that the One Design is a done deal (and has been for quite some time).

Really? I must have missed that memo

[roca]

Once again I can not believe they are going on with this disaster. I really hoped the last exciting legs would stop the ruin.
This is the worst idea in sailing world I heard since "starting match racing on a reach".
This will be the end of this race; we will see 3 years of promises and downsizing till it will come out an abort.
Think F1 racing in OD, motoGP racing in OD, rally car racing in OD . they would all be dead in short. Not even cycling tour the france could live on OD bycicles.
There is no way they will get 10-12 teams for next edition on OD boats, not even in their dreams , and if volvo belives that they are fools.
The will probably not even get a next edition, as I do not think volvo or knut can afford to pay for teams like LE. I bet that if they were to keep VO70 with some cost control, next race would have at least 3 or 4 old gen boats competing, plus 3-4 new.
If they succeed to make the race start with this new OD design, I am sure they will not get more than 5-6 boats, and it will be very uninteresting for most VOR fans.
After one article on yachting world on the new boat they will have nothing to write for the 12 months before the race. Like AC45. Nobody has nothing to write about them. nobody cares. teams will loose most technical suppliers revenues. There will be 3 years of nothing, teams will fall apart.

But let's look for good in anything;
- first thing is that I can now go out and buy a new roller and code0 and nav software, as they will not develop for another 15 years...
- second good thing: we will not have to hear ian walker's whining (we never hear speed boat issues and whining at OD racing, right;) )
- third I bet there will be some fast boats for sale in galway, cheap, very cheap.

[roca]

Breaking news:


The 2017 VOR edition will only be raced on the virtual race. That will shave most costs and let the best seaman win in exactly the same conditions. They will of course have to use the same software, but can change some parameters.
Official Teams' members can race from home but must cook their food and cannot get assistance from wives during legs.
Increased revenues expected from sailmakers as they will be able to sponsor sails which cannot prove worse than competitors...most sailmakers taking part!

[couchsurfer]

Breaking news:


The 2017 VOR edition will only be raced on the virtual race. That will shave most costs and let the best seaman win in exactly the same conditions. They will of course have to use the same software, but can change some parameters.
Official Teams' members can race from home but must cook their food and cannot get assistance from wives during legs.
Increased revenues expected from sailmakers as they will be able to sponsor sails which cannot prove worse than competitors...most sailmakers taking part!

....ahh,that explains a LOT!!!

[the loose cannon]

Not possible, the VORG has far more structural issues than any of the VOR 70's.

[Speng]

OD for the VOR is rubbish...

A lot of people say the (non-sailing) punter doesn't care about the tech but that's not true. I was a non-sailing punter growing up in a country where nobody sails and then I watched the VOR in 1991 (I think) and 18 foot skiffs and that got me hooked. People always want to know that there is something technically different about the specific team they're supporting. Even NASCAR tries to differentiate the cars even if they are all the same under the skin. F-1 has fewer differences than it used to but there are way more differences than similarities. Companies who're going to spend a pile of money want to associate themselves with at least the appearance of differentiation.

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million? If we want to reduce the cost of running the sailing team then that needs to be addressed directly. To quote another poster if you want to reduce costs then limit cost. There is no guarantee that OD will cost less. I've been told by enough designers to believe it that designing one-off race boats is not that great a money making venture but you do it because the exposure/effort ratio is good especially if you win. For OD you've got to be in it for the haul the and the expectations of the part of the buyer are more long term requiring a lot more detail work and follow up on the part of the designer. For the builders the expense on tooling is higher for tens of boats that you have to be prepared to build, not to mention the "cost of risk" (i.e. if nobody buys in). My guess is that the cost of building the boat(s) is no more than 1/3 the cost of running a VOR team so even if you were to halve that it would only reduce costs by ~15% and I doubt they can halve the cost of the $4-5 million boats. If you were a team that spent $4-5 million on a boat this last go around with the expectation that you could sell it even for $1million as a training boat, cheap entrant in the next race or IRC toy for some rich geezer the idea of being required to spend even $3million on an OD boat would be unappetizing.

The reality is that the organizers and the teams need to look at what they're spending on the team as a whole not just the boat. I reckon if you're spending $5million for a boat then you're spending way more on salaries, benefits, living costs etc. Even if the shore team guy only works for minimum wage the cost of living around the world in hotels and rental cars etc for a year is more than $100K. I don't know what the solution to all that is because you do need to have support crews but maybe requiring standardized gear for rigging, steering etc would let you use supplier labor rather than taking your own might reduce costs (similar to how F-1 uses basically frozen engines). I don't know to what extent the race organizers have actually been enforcing the rig and appendage limits that they put into place before the current race but those things were moves in the right direction without being overly rigid IMO. The fact that teams with supposedly well tested boats were having breakages early in the race is an indictment of the teams and the designers for not adequately testing/developing their boats not on the development class concept in general.

In any case much of the financial issues do come down to a really crap economy and the teams and the organizer will have to deal with those issues for the next race (unless you think "the recession" is going to be done by then...) but I'm not remotely convinced that OD is going to make it more financially viable in the short or long run.

Some guy here has tried to make the point that development classes don't do anything for the sport but that's complete BS. There's a million things on today's OD boats vs the OD boats of yesteryear that came straight from the development classes. Compare a J22 and a J70, two boats that have essentially the same design brief and from the asym kite on the carbon sprit to the low rocker stern, from the t-bulb keel to the top of the carbon swept spreader mast came from development classes in the last 20-30 years. On cruising boats virtually all the gear we use comes from offshore non-OD raceboats. Nav gear, Furlers, rigging, autopilots, watermakers, weather routing gear etc. If it weren't for these design oriented classes we'd all be sailing Baba 30s and Flying Scots...

[mad]

From another thread Gavin Brady talks about Beau Geste breakingup, and VOR want to go with Farr!!!

Look at Bounder and you would not go with Juan K. What an irrelevant comment.

Has either designer come clean about the issues lately? Beau Geste have had 3 issues to date, JK ever issue any info on Bounder?

[Heriberto]

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million?

[DickDastardly]

OD for the VOR is rubbish...

A lot of people say the (non-sailing) punter doesn't care about the tech but that's not true. I was a non-sailing punter growing up in a country where nobody sails and then I watched the VOR in 1991 (I think) and 18 foot skiffs and that got me hooked. People always want to know that there is something technically different about the specific team they're supporting. Even NASCAR tries to differentiate the cars even if they are all the same under the skin. F-1 has fewer differences than it used to but there are way more differences than similarities. Companies who're going to spend a pile of money want to associate themselves with at least the appearance of differentiation.

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million? If we want to reduce the cost of running the sailing team then that needs to be addressed directly. To quote another poster if you want to reduce costs then limit cost. There is no guarantee that OD will cost less. I've been told by enough designers to believe it that designing one-off race boats is not that great a money making venture but you do it because the exposure/effort ratio is good especially if you win. For OD you've got to be in it for the haul the and the expectations of the part of the buyer are more long term requiring a lot more detail work and follow up on the part of the designer. For the builders the expense on tooling is higher for tens of boats that you have to be prepared to build, not to mention the "cost of risk" (i.e. if nobody buys in). My guess is that the cost of building the boat(s) is no more than 1/3 the cost of running a VOR team so even if you were to halve that it would only reduce costs by ~15% and I doubt they can halve the cost of the $4-5 million boats. If you were a team that spent $4-5 million on a boat this last go around with the expectation that you could sell it even for $1million as a training boat, cheap entrant in the next race or IRC toy for some rich geezer the idea of being required to spend even $3million on an OD boat would be unappetizing.

The reality is that the organizers and the teams need to look at what they're spending on the team as a whole not just the boat. I reckon if you're spending $5million for a boat then you're spending way more on salaries, benefits, living costs etc. Even if the shore team guy only works for minimum wage the cost of living around the world in hotels and rental cars etc for a year is more than $100K. I don't know what the solution to all that is because you do need to have support crews but maybe requiring standardized gear for rigging, steering etc would let you use supplier labor rather than taking your own might reduce costs (similar to how F-1 uses basically frozen engines). I don't know to what extent the race organizers have actually been enforcing the rig and appendage limits that they put into place before the current race but those things were moves in the right direction without being overly rigid IMO. The fact that teams with supposedly well tested boats were having breakages early in the race is an indictment of the teams and the designers for not adequately testing/developing their boats not on the development class concept in general.

In any case much of the financial issues do come down to a really crap economy and the teams and the organizer will have to deal with those issues for the next race (unless you think "the recession" is going to be done by then...) but I'm not remotely convinced that OD is going to make it more financially viable in the short or long run.

Some guy here has tried to make the point that development classes don't do anything for the sport but that's complete BS. There's a million things on today's OD boats vs the OD boats of yesteryear that came straight from the development classes. Compare a J22 and a J70, two boats that have essentially the same design brief and from the asym kite on the carbon sprit to the low rocker stern, from the t-bulb keel to the top of the carbon swept spreader mast came from development classes in the last 20-30 years. On cruising boats virtually all the gear we use comes from offshore non-OD raceboats. Nav gear, Furlers, rigging, autopilots, watermakers, weather routing gear etc. If it weren't for these design oriented classes we'd all be sailing Baba 30s and Flying Scots...

Really good article in the latest Seahorse from someone in the thick of things that captures a lot of what's wrong with the VOR in the broader context. What is VOR? Who is the audience? What are they buying into if they follow the race? How does that create commercial value for teams and race sponsors? Great read reproduced here to stimulate comment.

Attached Files

•  Seahorse Article.PDF   831.32K   210 downloads

[couchsurfer]

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million?

...Farrrrrrr Out!

[couchsurfer]

...have t'say,,,I'm really -jonesing- to see them set-off again

[GBH]

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million?

...Farrrrrrr Out!

Bizarre isn't it - the slowest, most expensive, most failure prone boat in the fleet, and the selected designers for the VOD are the same. What planet are Knut and his cohorts really on? And then Beau Geste - what perfect timing

[couchsurfer]

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million?

...Farrrrrrr Out!

Bizarre isn't it - the slowest, most expensive, most failure prone boat in the fleet, and the selected designers for the VOD are the same. What planet are Knut and his cohorts really on? And then Beau Geste - what perfect timing

...I guess yer could say they're -really- working their learning curve!

[Potter]

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million?

and which of the new generation boats do youthink cost less than $5 million? I am not saying Abu is not the most expenisve, just that you are exagerating the difference. Certainly G4, Puma, and Tele will hav cost more than $5 million. Perhaps Camper is cheaper as ETNZ have so many staff already on the payroll.

[couchsurfer]

One question has to be asked is why is it that Abu Dhabi spent $9million on their boat while other teams spent $4-5 million?

and which of the new generation boats do youthink cost less than $5 million? I am not saying Abu is not the most expenisve, just that you are exagerating the difference. Certainly G4, Puma, and Tele will hav cost more than $5 million. Perhaps Camper is cheaper as ETNZ have so many staff already on the payroll.

I'm beginning to wonder if JuanK is considering to break his vow of -never- speaking on SA?
...C'mon Juan,,we know you're out there,,,and clearly,,yer've got some fans here!!!

...got another press release coming soon??

[corkob]

To be fair and balanced, didn't Juan K design Rambler 100, Bounder and Jelik. Also the Juan K Telefonica suffered delamination this race, Groupama had problems also. Black Betty had her problems both as Abn Amro and Delta Lloyd as did Ericsson 3 in previous races. Is it the designers or builders that are at fault? One way or the other neither Farr nor Juan K can boast of a trouble free history. Nature of the beast?

[Liquid]

and just because it's OD, does that mean no sailors will push the boat to it's breaking point???

[schakel]

and just because it's OD, does that mean no sailors will push the boat to it's breaking point???

The coat of arms in your signature is a sailing yacht but I can't google her.
I stumbled on this superyacht called Alwaeli
This is a Bahraini royal yacht - witness the Bahraini coat of arms.
Owner: Emir or King of Bahrain ? - Sheik Hamad ibn Isa Al Khalifah.

But back to topic: I hope the VOR Mono's are not being pushed away by the MOD 70's.
They surf very nice.

Attached Files

•  alwaeli02.jpg   133.46K   31 downloads

[Liquid]

and just because it's OD, does that mean no sailors will push the boat to it's breaking point???

The coat of arms in your signature is a sailing yacht but I can't google her.
I stumbled on this superyacht called Alwaeli
This is a Bahraini royal yacht - witness the Bahraini coat of arms.
Owner: Emir or King of Bahrain ? - Sheik Hamad ibn Isa Al Khalifah.

But back to topic: I hope the VOR Mono's are not being pushed away by the MOD 70's.
They surf very nice.

Coat of Arms is a just an International 14...not really a yacht per say! I'm of Scottish decent and have a personal family crest/coat of arms that was the naming inspiration...

Please let the VOR stay monos!

[schakel]

and just because it's OD, does that mean no sailors will push the boat to it's breaking point???

The coat of arms in your signature is a sailing yacht but I can't google her.
I stumbled on this superyacht called Alwaeli
This is a Bahraini royal yacht - witness the Bahraini coat of arms.
Owner: Emir or King of Bahrain ? - Sheik Hamad ibn Isa Al Khalifah.

But back to topic: I hope the VOR Mono's are not being pushed away by the MOD 70's.
They surf very nice.

Coat of Arms is a just an International 14...not really a yacht per say! I'm of Scottish decent and have a personal family crest/coat of arms that was the naming inspiration...

Please let the VOR stay monos!

I found what International 14 is. Nice.
Kind of 49-er.

And about the new VOR class...
It's not in our hands.
Mr. Clean knows a lot about it.

Attached Files

•  International 14 USA 1116.jpg   50.89K   21 downloads
•  International 14 USA 2.jpg   105.6K   25 downloads

[spacecowboy]

Don't change a thing.

Saturday's inport race was probably the best fleet race we've seen for years in any televised regatta. Far more interesting than any AC45 race we've seen and with the stakes so high and getting higher as Galway approaches, expect better races to come.

72 points remaining on the board and 4 boats still capable of taking it out.

They should be looking at revising the VO70, standardizing some parts, not starting from scratch.

Not sure the VO70 is dead yet, freezing the design and using one of the current molds is still one of the options on the table and with the racing so close and boat breakages hopefully done with, it might just be the preferred option once Volvo realize they don't have the time to design, build and test a fleet of 8 OD boats in 12-18 months.

[bruno]

14 = kind of a 49er, had not thought of it that way.

[bruno]

yeh, shitty raci g, needs to be 1 design, not close enuff, not enuff drama, 1 desine will fix that, wait, box rule isn't 1 design?

[schakel]

An epic day in Lorient yesterday...Franck Cammas gave a master class in multi hull sailing to rival skippers Chris Nicholson and Mike Sanderson aboard Groupama 3.



Does this mean Gammas is luring the VOR into multi's?
He was involved in getting AC to multis as well.
Well despite the safety, guess after all he knows best.

[mr_ryano]

Press Conference tomorrow to revel new boat

[Alpina]

Doyle Sails, Future Fibres rig.

[Heriberto]

If they are going one design, I'm unclear why they don't just go with one of the one design masters over Farr.

Why not a "J210", or "M70"?

J-boats! Melges! One design like the proles! The time is now!

[umpire]

Press Conference tomorrow to revel new boat

Any news on the Press Conference ?, nothing on the VOR site.

[Potter]

Press Conference tomorrow to revel new boat

Any news on the Press Conference ?, nothing on the VOR site.

It is tomorrow, 28th. I am not going to be there, but hoping they will Livestream.

[mr_ryano]

Press Conference tomorrow to revel new boat

Any news on the Press Conference ?, nothing on the VOR site.

It is tomorrow, 28th. I am not going to be there, but hoping they will Livestream.

FUTURE BOAT DESIGN MEDIA BRIEFING GOING LIVE

The Volvo Ocean Race Future Boat Design Media Briefing will be streamed live on our Livestream channel. Please join us at 08:00 UTC or 10:00 at the Lorient stopover.

www.livestream.com/volvooceanrace


WHAT:
As the conclusion of the 2011-12 edition of the round the world race approaches, Volvo Ocean Race CEO Knut Frostad will reveal plans for a new boat design for the next edition of the premier offshore sailing event in 2014-15.


WHO:
Knut Frostad, CEO of the Volvo Ocean Race and key members of the design and boat-building teams involved in the new boat design project.


WHEN:
Thursday 28 June 2012
10:00 – 10:45

[gybe-ho!]

Dear Eight Pound, Six Ounce, Newborn Baby Jesus, don't even know a word yet, just a little infant, so cuddly, but still omnipotent...please not a one design!

[Par Avion]

what time zone?

[roca]

So it seems this to be my last night as VOR fan.
Tomorrow the last unbelivably stupid major change in sail racing world will happen.
How sad

[Potter]

So it seems this to be my last night as VOR fan.
Tomorrow the last unbelivably stupid major change in sail racing world will happen.
How sad

I woudld prefer that it stays as a VO70 frankly, but I actually think that a decent one design would also make for a great VOR. If the teams are so close with differing boats then imagine how close it will be if they are the same?
The largest portion of a Volvo team budget is the salaries and then the boat. By reducing the size of the boat and making it one design they will dramatically reduce both costs. However it will still cost in the region of €15million for a half decent team, so I do not know if it will make any difference to the number of entries. If teams can get a bigger budget they will always find ways to spend it, and ways around the race rules to gain an adventage.

I do not fear that the next race will be any less exciting. These are not the fastest monohulls in the world, certainly not the fastest boats, so if the boats are even 10% slower will it make any difference to me as a fan...probably not. After all 10% means they are doing 9kts, not 10kts; or even 30kts instead of 33kts.

Besides the best racing to follow is on pretty average one-design boats...the solitaire is phenomenal.

[gybe-ho!]

what time zone?

As above: 08:00 UTC or 10:00 Local (lorient), so 0400 East Coast time.

[Left Hook]

On one hand it will be less exciting to me as a spectator to have boats with differing design styles, aspects and cool go-fast bits.

That said, from a sustainability point of view I can honestly see the drive for a one design. If I were potentially looking at sponsoring a team for the race I would feel far better about making my investment if I knew that there wasn't the chance my designer would wind up being outclassed (farr in this case) and that my boat (that I spent a lot of money on) would wind up being in the back of the pack the whole way around and be mathematically eliminated 3 legs before the finish.

We as spectators will learn to love whatever new format they give us. Hopefully things will be done right and the end result will be a bigger fleet of closer boats.

[Icedtea]

Please let them keep it development,....


It still amazes me in a way that they find it so easy to ignore a very large protion of the sailing public

[DickDastardly]

Please let them keep it development,....


It still amazes me in a way that they find it so easy to ignore a very large protion of the sailing public

The race isn't for the sailing public. It's the non sailing public that matters.

[Heriberto]

Guess nobody told Juan winning on the water don't mean shit, Jack. The important battles are won in the boardroom and the backroom. Hookers and blow, Juan, champagne and weed. Farr figured that out, probably where all Abu Dhabi's money went, greasing skids.

[Potter]

Guess nobody told Juan winning on the water don't mean shit, Jack. The important battles are won in the boardroom and the backroom. Hookers and blow, Juan, champagne and weed. Farr figured that out, probably where all Abu Dhabi's money went, greasing skids.

I have to be honest and say that I will be surprised if out is the Farr option, but although Juan K can build fast boats in the VO70 rule he has built as many lemons as the next man in other designs. So if they are changing the rule then it is irrelevant whether they choose the winning designer of this race or not

[quasi-expert]

livestream has just started for those who are confused with the timezones.

[roca]

If I were potentially looking at sponsoring a team for the race I would feel far better about making my investment if I knew that there wasn't the chance my designer would wind up being outclassed (farr in this case) and that my boat (that I spent a lot of money on) would wind up being in the back of the pack the whole way around and be mathematically eliminated 3 legs before the finish.

The comic side is that the way to avoid this is proved to be easy: do not hire farr and/or IW, which are the strong pillars of this next race format.

We as spectators will learn to love whatever new format they give us.

This is not true, we will loose a lot of interest both in pre race and in the race, as it is happening with the wreck of AC or as it will happen with speed kitesurfing at olympics.

Hopefully things will be done right and the end result will be a bigger fleet of closer boats.

OD in VOR cannot be right. result will be a poor race, with less top sailors, less technolog,less sponsors and who will therefore die shortly.

[BvanVugt]

The way he's talking it has to be a one design coming

He keeps spouting on about how its the people, not the boats that matter. What else guarantees that?

[Tony-F18]

Since all leading boats and drawn up by the same guy isn't it already 99% one design?

[gybe-ho!]

Strict One Design.

[roca]

Besides the best racing to follow is on pretty average one-design boats...the solitaire is phenomenal.

I am a big fan of solitaire, but this is even more stupid, if possible, that it would be to turn the solitaire in a box-class race.
OD is right for solitaire and wrong for VOR. easy to understand for someone who understand about sailing races.

[Tony-F18]

VSail is tweeting live (for those who cant watch the stream): https://twitter.com/vsail

[Tony-F18]

The VO65 one design, designer by Farr Yacht Design.

Attached Files

•  AwdopWsCAAE_6R7 (1).jpg   166.75K   45 downloads

[the paradox of thrift]

I like pretty much everything about it except the odd reverse sheer on the bow.

The concept is a good one. It'snot really going to diminish the spectacle of the race.

Hopefully we'll see a lot of the sailors from this edition back again, because they've been great to follow.

I'm a bit gutted that there was no room for a Kiwi or Aussie firm in the build syndicate.

[quasi-expert]

One question for me is:
the boat will be state of the art for the next edition and maybe also for the following one but what happens afterwards?
Not really a chance to update it without going to a complete new design and making all the boats worthless.
This time Volvo gave the money to build the fleet, but are they going to do it every 2-3 cycles?

[jpchirinos]

JK 3 Race 3 wins vs Farr ... 1 sunk, 1 almost sunk and 1 really slow one.
Why Farr?

[onimod]

Looks okay at this stage (from the perspective of an anti OD fan).
Big thumbs up to Volvo for fronting the costs and it certainly makes it easier for them to also pick up the pieces if 8 viable teams don't surface.
I can see how it makes the whole race a lot more certain for them and they have tried to minimise the cost of that certainty. but I'm impressed by the vision to achieve that.
I'll reserve final judgement on the boat until I see one race.
The next big challenge for them is the course - announced in December IIRC.

[nroose]

I guess I understand the idea that they need to save money. But this design looks like it is already a couple of years old. I was thinking that the newest designs had fuller bows, and that they would likely get fuller still if the design rules allowed it. This boat looks like a fine bow. And with fewer sails and fewer people, and probably only one of the 2 rear ballast tanks full at a time, the ability to put weight in the stern will be reduced. I guess having the bow under water is photogenic.

[Larry30knots]

JK 3 Race 3 wins vs Farr ... 1 sunk, 1 almost sunk and 1 really slow one.
Why Farr?

Completely agree. WTH choosing Farr?
But probably when big contracts are landed there is more to the picture than meets the eye.

[nroose]

JK 3 Race 3 wins vs Farr ... 1 sunk, 1 almost sunk and 1 really slow one.
Why Farr?

I'm guessing Farr is more customer focused - more willing to give Knut whatever he wanted and more people with more time to talk to Knut, and probably cheaper.

[onimod]

One question for me is:
the boat will be state of the art for the next edition and maybe also for the following one but what happens afterwards?
Not really a chance to update it without going to a complete new design and making all the boats worthless.
This time Volvo gave the money to build the fleet, but are they going to do it every 2-3 cycles?

It's a good question.
Could the 'component' style contruction system they're suggesting enable the replacement of that component to upgrade the package?
If say the deck is updated between cycle one and two then cycle one boats are offered the new deck. So long as limited components are updated between each cycle then I could see how the class could develop over time.
Maybe scrapping the boats every third cycle is feasible for Volvo?

[oioi]

some interesting differences. boat is going to be a lot lighter (10,700 vs 14,000) and RM is down as well. So is the weight coming out of the keel?
Also I like the fact that they have gone for some form of crew protection.



Boat still looks cool as fuck and is waaaayyyy faster than anything im going to race. Yes OD dums down the design aspect, but it places a lot more importance on nav and crew. if there are 8 of these on the start line i will be following.



any news on crew numbers? will a youth or female entry get dispensation for more crew?

[roca]

Hopefully we'll see a lot of the sailors from this edition back again, because they've been great to follow.

I bet the three best skippers of this race will not be back in new format race, and I mean franck, ken and Iker.

[the paradox of thrift]

You'd have to conclude that there was either a commercial reason not to go with Juan K as the designer, or that there was a personality issue that put him on the outer.

Knut has handled the questions regarding this very carefuly and diplomatically, but there is obviously a reason, and to be good mannered and careful he is focussing on the positive and avoiding burning anyone.

[the paradox of thrift]

Hopefully we'll see a lot of the sailors from this edition back again, because they've been great to follow.

I bet the three best skippers of this race will not be back in new format race, and I mean franck, ken and Iker.

You never know - other than "having been there, and done that" why wouldn't they come back. Why would the next edition of the race have less appeal for sailors?

[oioi]

Hopefully we'll see a lot of the sailors from this edition back again, because they've been great to follow.

I bet the three best skippers of this race will not be back in new format race, and I mean franck, ken and Iker.

Ken to old? Franck not interested or no sponsor? Iker - I would have thought he would want another go?

[umpire]

JK 3 Race 3 wins vs Farr ... 1 sunk, 1 almost sunk and 1 really slow one.
Why Farr?

I'm guessing Farr is more customer focused - more willing to give Knut whatever he wanted and more people with more time to talk to Knut, and probably cheaper.

Noticed that KF was asked about other designers being involved in the 'bid process', but he ducked that one.

[umpire]

any news on crew numbers? will a youth or female entry get dispensation for more crew?

8 crew + MCM, 10 crew + MCM for female entry.

[Tunnel Rat]

I would prefer to follow a race with 8 competitive entries rather than 5 and an also ran (sorry Moose!)

[quasi-expert]

some interesting differences. boat is going to be a lot lighter (10,700 vs 14,000) and RM is down as well. So is the weight coming out of the keel?
Also I like the fact that they have gone for some form of crew protection.



Boat still looks cool as fuck and is waaaayyyy faster than anything im going to race. Yes OD dums down the design aspect, but it places a lot more importance on nav and crew. if there are 8 of these on the start line i will be following.



any news on crew numbers? will a youth or female entry get dispensation for more crew?

Regarding the crew protection I am not sure it is a good idea to build the boats with twin companionways.
I have been on il mostro after the last race and the companionway was huge and I think the reason for this is to able to get the sails up and down through it.
Further raising the freeboard also seems odd. I literally had to climb onto the 70 when it was lying in the marina and it had a lot more freeboard than all other vessels of similar size there.

[gybe-ho!]

A few more images of the new boat from www.volvooceanrace.com

[GBH]

You'd have to conclude that there was either a commercial reason not to go with Juan K as the designer, or that there was a personality issue that put him on the outer.

Knut has handled the questions regarding this very carefuly and diplomatically, but there is obviously a reason, and to be good mannered and careful he is focussing on the positive and avoiding burning anyone.

Well Knut will have been royally bunged, some other very obvious fingers in the pie there too, but thats how those guys always operate. Bullshit baffles brains and any any awkward queries handled by a nice fat envelope!

How depressing though, boat looks ordinary to say the least, its dated before it starts, and we'll have to see how reliable it turns out to be in practice!

How many takers will there be....not many I reckon.

[Gorn FRANTIC!!]

Well, looks like Farr will finally win the VOR...

[GBH]

Well, looks like Farr will finally win the VOR...

+1!

But only if any of them finish that is. Sorry, forgot, they put them on ships to miss out the ruff tuff stuff.

Last chance saloon, and I'll lay odds that those weight numbers don't make it to the final cut;)

[crashdog]

They certainly lost this rabid fan with that decision. I wonder how many others will go as well. When they went from Maxis to 60s, at least the new designs were faster (also the move from 60s to 70s). This time, they are going to slow it down. Time for a new round the world crewed race, maybe run by the French; historically, its the anglos who have pursued the quixotic at sea, so maybe back to some chinless punter, after all. However, with Franck winning it would be a good launch. Maybe the Multi One Design will actually take over the role as premier, but somehow i dout it; the need to send big boats out of Capetown and into the roller coaster will have to be met.

[roca]

Yes OD dums down the design aspect, but it places a lot more importance on nav and crew

not true about nav. They are expected to impose same hardware and same software for nav, other than same weather data as today. so they will navigate the same. Most of the interesting moments of this year's race are due to GPMA different software nav and instruments. Lot of work on that and merits to the team for that too.

[tjw]

Volvo Clipper Race.

[Panoramix]

Mmmmhh, they seem to be "moderating" the comments on the VO website: New boat

Did only 4 people comment? My comment didn't go through!

[Panoramix]

On the positive side, you can see that the sailors were listened to. They've made a big effort on the crew safety side with some ideas from the IMOCA. I am not sure of the inverted bow though, It will make the ride very wet IMHO.

[Potter]

MOD will not take over. They are not even designed to go in the south.
A few rabid fans will no doubt be lost with the loss of design difference, but if this means more teams on the start line then it mau just save the race from disappearing all together.
Keeping in mind that Knut inherited the VO70 rule ask yourself this would you rather see 8 65ft Farr boats in the next race or 5 VO70. I know that I would prefer to see the fleet grow.
I would also be happy to see new faces out there as well.

[roca]

Volvo Clipper Race.

in notice of race they will add that 2 out of 8 crews must be paying amateurs.
all to save costs! and they give better drama for the media contents too.

[the loose cannon]

Cabin top as is will not provide any additional protection offshore. Other than the bow, the boat's lines are very reminiscent of Camper. Looks like they made the keel fin longer and that is how they are taking the weight out of the boat. Should be fun when the keel hits something hard first instead of the boards.

Boo. Just Boo.

So I guess the trick for next time is to get delivery of the first and last boat and do all the workup on the rig and sails that you can. Kind of like Farr 40 racing.

[roca]

In your opinion, how much is worth the G4 now?