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No Viper Love from LE-PHRF


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#1 airacer

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:09 PM

January 15, 2012 - PHRF-LE MEETING MINUTES – Houlihan’s, Westlake OH
Attendance: Doug Howe, Bill Kellner, David Lengyel, Dave Ryan, Chris Merkle, Jon Tushak, George Raynor,
Roger Pollack, Dick Frazier, Mike Barry, Colin Mills, Dick Synowiec
Administrative – Minutes approved from the December 11th meeting with revision.
New Applications Base Rating NO RATING

Inquiry Viper 640 – Terry Phillips, Willoughby, Ohio –took delivery of a Viper 640 and NO RATING
wants a rating to do the Sundance Race (runs in tandem with Falcon Cup in Cleveland
to accommodate boats that do not qualify for Falcon). In some areas Vipers get ratings,
in others they don't meet the requirements. Committee will not rate this boat, either permanent
or restricted. Some items noted during the discussion were no navigation lights, no auxiliary engine;
no lifelines. Note to owner should cite 9.1 of the Class Rules.


Renewal history: 2011: approx 380; 614 members in 2010; 616 members in 2009; 619 members in 2008; 629 members in 2007;
644 members in 2006; 668 Members in 2005

HMMM, doesn't make much sense to me.

#2 narecet

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:14 PM

January 15, 2012 - PHRF-LE MEETING MINUTES – Houlihan's, Westlake OH
Attendance: Doug Howe, Bill Kellner,

Tell Bill that the Professor says hi!

#3 Timbo

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:07 PM

What type of PH racing are you wanting to do with the Vipe??

In So Cal, the lowest category of PH is 4, which the Vipe is rated for here.

from the So cal rule book

10.4 CATEGORY 4 – A race 30 nautical miles or less, which is intended to be less than 6 hours in duration and
with no part of the course more than 5 nautical miles from shore (land). The Buoy Rating, or Random Leg
Rating, or Offwind Rating (as defined in Section 2.2) shall apply. Area Ratings apply if the race starts and
finishes in the same Area.

here are the equipment req.

The following list of equipment is considered part of a boat’s Rated Configuration when the boat is racing in a
Category 1, 2, 3, or 4 PHRF race. Failure to carry the equipment is cause for disqualification.
CATEGORY
1 2 3 4 Current U.S. Coast Guard Equipment Requirements including, but not limited to:
• Personal Flotation Devices (PFD). Each PFD shall have a whistle attached.
• Visual Distress Signal(s).
• Fire extinguisher(s).
• Sound Producing Device(s).
• Navigation Lights.
• Trash Placard and Oil Discharge Placard.
• Marine Sanitation Device (MSD).
1 2 3 4 The ability to reduce sail area.
1 2 3 4 Adequate bilge pump(s).
1 2 3 4 Tapered wood plugs for each of the boat’s thru-hull fittings.
1 2 3 4 Radar Reflector.
1 2 3 4 A compass visible from the helm.
1 2 3 4 First Aid Kit.
1 2 3 4 VHF marine radio with at least channels 6, 12, 16, 22A, a weather channel and one working channel.
1 2 3 4 One anchor of the size recommended by the anchor’s manufacturer, metal chain, and line adequate to hold in
adverse weather. Chain shall be at least 1/2 the boat’s length. Line shall be at least 150 feet in length.
1 2 3 Fixed bow and stern pulpit, lifelines and supports. Minimum height of pulpit and lifelines is 18 inches. Maximum
distance between supports is 7 feet. Lifelines may terminate at the deck at the bow. Boats without a fixed stern
pulpit may be acceptable after review.
1 2 3 A spare or portable compass.
1 2 A USCG approved Type IV Ring Buoy or Horseshoe Buoy connected by 25 feet of floating line to a crew
overboard pole with an “O” flag attached. A USCG approved automatic flashing light shall be attached to the
Type IV Buoy with a short lanyard.
1 2 Inflatable raft(s) or dinghy(s) capable of taking off the entire crew. The total rated capacity of the raft(s) or
dinghy(s) shall be at least equal to the number or total weight of the crew.
1 A spare anchor of the size recommended by the anchor’s manufacturer, metal chain, and line adequate to hold in
adverse weather. Chain shall be at least 1/2 the boat’s length. Line shall be at least 150 feet in length.

#4 hotair

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:54 AM

Where would you put all that "equipement" on a Viper ?

#5 schoonerman

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:37 AM

Sheeeit.

PHRF is such a PIA. Have loads of troubles in NorCal. Viper gets a rating because it predates the Wabbit Wule. K6 has no love...too new of a design and the keel doesn't weigh the min 400 lbs. The J-70 will get love but it has a . . . get this 750lb keel Keel weighs what a Viper does and they carry the same sail area upwind.

#6 ultraracer613um

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:59 AM

So was the K6 denied a rating because it is too new of a design, the keel is too light... or both?





Sheeeit.

PHRF is such a PIA. Have loads of troubles in NorCal. Viper gets a rating because it predates the Wabbit Wule. K6 has no love...too new of a design and the keel doesn't weigh the min 400 lbs. The J-70 will get love but it has a . . . get this 750lb keel Keel weighs what a Viper does and they carry the same sail area upwind.



#7 Mambo Kings

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 06:28 AM

January 15, 2012 - PHRF-LE MEETING MINUTES – Houlihan's, Westlake OH
Attendance: Doug Howe, Bill Kellner, David Lengyel, Dave Ryan, Chris Merkle, Jon Tushak, George Raynor,
Roger Pollack, Dick Frazier, Mike Barry, Colin Mills, Dick Synowiec
Administrative – Minutes approved from the December 11th meeting with revision.
New Applications Base Rating NO RATING

Inquiry Viper 640 – Terry Phillips, Willoughby, Ohio –took delivery of a Viper 640 and NO RATING
wants a rating to do the Sundance Race (runs in tandem with Falcon Cup in Cleveland
to accommodate boats that do not qualify for Falcon). In some areas Vipers get ratings,
in others they don't meet the requirements. Committee will not rate this boat, either permanent
or restricted. Some items noted during the discussion were no navigation lights, no auxiliary engine;
no lifelines. Note to owner should cite 9.1 of the Class Rules.


Renewal history: 2011: approx 380; 614 members in 2010; 616 members in 2009; 619 members in 2008; 629 members in 2007;
644 members in 2006; 668 Members in 2005

HMMM, doesn't make much sense to me.


Happy to talk to PHRF LE if we can be helpful

1. I am not aware of any areas other than LE-PHRF has declined to rate the Viper. Admitedly we squeeked into NORCAL. The Chesapeake which used to be hung up on lifelines has granted Viper a rating.

2. I note they quote 9.1 of the class rules. This lists equipment req'd for one design racing. Terry should refer them to the section that deals with handicap racing where it specifies

"When racing PHRF, :-

1. All crew members must wear a coastguard approved PFD with a whistle at all times from the warning signal until the finish. If a Viper retires or otherwise withdraws from a race before finishing, the crew must wear PFDs until they return to the dock.

2. No part of any crew member shall extend outboard of the gunwale unless both feet are securely hooked under the hiking straps.

3. The boat shall carry the following equipment:-

  • A 4lb Danforth anchor and 60 ft anchor line.
  • A foghorn
  • A compass
  • If racing within 1 hour of sunset, a set of portable navigation lights that can be securely attached to the boat.
  • Three hand held flares.
  • A paddle or an outboard motor
  • A floating position marker.
4. The boat shall have safety lines installed along the under the gunwale as specified by Rondar Boats.

The Viper does not have stanchions and life lines. The Class Association has discussed this matter with several Race Organizers and Yacht Racing Authorities. The conclusion of the PHRF authorities and the Class Association is that life lines would not be effective on a Viper. Instead Rondar Race Boats has responded by designing safety lines installed along the gunwale, and the Class has instituted the "hiking strap" rule."

.

#8 RockHead

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:22 AM

Here's the relevant page from the the Class website that MK refers to: http://viper640.org/...64-phrf-ratings This shows the Class recommendations for handicap racing. Note that the numbers quoted are at least 2-3 years old.

We have motor mounts in stock, if they're truly hung up on that for some reason. Do they rate an Etchells? Never seen a motor, lifelines or installed running lights on one of them... (yes, they do, and others-see below). They shouldn't be, their own rules allow them to ignore equipment requirements:





10.1.2 "R" - A R designates a restricted rating. Restricted handicaps are issued to all boats that do not meet the

minimum equipment standards specified under Article Nine. Boats with restricted ratings will be issued a

special handicap certificate that states that the handicap is not valid for any invitational race. Race

sponsors will be informed that it is strictly against class rules to allow an "R" handicap boat to compete in

the regular PHRF division.

They also explicitly allow themselves to rate boats in one-design configuration:




ARTICLE SIXTEEN - ONE DESIGN RIG CLASSES


16.1 To avoid having a boat that adheres to its class rules suffer an inordinate penalty for a small infraction of a
PHRF-LE measurement point certain specific provisions are made by action of the handicap committee
for One Design Rig classes in PHRF-LE.


16.2 "One Design” boats” such as, but not limited to J-130, 120, 105, 92, and 80; MELGES 24, 32, Viper 830,
Ultimate 20 etc shall be permitted to use the class sprit pole, and/or spinnaker pole and spinnaker, as well
main and jib configuration allowed by their class rules. One design ratings will be used to address unique
configurations of the rig and equipment of a class, but does not include unique sailing rules. The class
configuration shall be their ONLY allowable configuration. Any other configuration shall be considered
PHRF- LE optimized and rated accordingly.



Some non-complying one-design boats that have ratings in PHRF-LE (from their own website http://www.phrf-le.org/Handicaps.aspx ). Most are not listed as "R"-Restricted.


Atlantic One Design
Etchells 22
International 210
J/22 (only one listed as "ODR"-One Design Restricted)
R Boat
Rhodes 19
Soling
Sonar


I too, would be happy to speak or write to them.

#9 Bilge hooker

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:55 AM

January 15, 2012 - PHRF-LE MEETING MINUTES – Houlihan’s, Westlake OH

New Applications Base Rating NO RATING

Inquiry Viper 640 – Terry Phillips, Willoughby, Ohio –took delivery of a Viper 640 and NO RATING
wants a rating to do the Sundance Race (runs in tandem with Falcon Cup in Cleveland
to accommodate boats that do not qualify for Falcon). In some areas Vipers get ratings,
in others they don't meet the requirements. Committee will not rate this boat, either permanent
or restricted. Some items noted during the discussion were no navigation lights, no auxiliary engine;
no lifelines. Note to owner should cite 9.1 of the Class Rules.


doesn't make much sense to me.

Were the rules in effect before the boat was purchased? Is this like moving next to an airport and complaining about the noise? Maybe a new class or system is necessary for boats that don't fit into what already exists. :blink:

#10 narecet

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 12:55 PM

Sheeeit.

PHRF is such a PIA. Have loads of troubles in NorCal. Viper gets a rating because it predates the Wabbit Wule. K6 has no love...too new of a design and the keel doesn't weigh the min 400 lbs. The J-70 will get love but it has a . . . get this 750lb keel Keel weighs what a Viper does and they carry the same sail area upwind.


And, 1000 lb more weight in total.

But, it is an afterburning rocketship! With smoking hot foam coming off the powerful firm buttocks, leaving a wake with incredible resemblance to a Volvo 70. Surely that has to take a PHRF hit??


#11 Ryley

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:23 PM

Some non-complying one-design boats that have ratings in PHRF-LE (from their own website http://www.phrf-le.org/Handicaps.aspx ). Most are not listed as "R"-Restricted.

Atlantic One Design
Etchells 22
International 210
J/22 (only one listed as "ODR"-One Design Restricted)
R Boat
Rhodes 19
Soling
Sonar


Add to that list the Alerion 26, which to my knowledge has no lifelines, and the Melges 24 (which seemed a bit punished at 81, but I'm not really surprised by that I suppose).

#12 Ryley

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:28 PM

Were the rules in effect before the boat was purchased? Is this like moving next to an airport and complaining about the noise? Maybe a new class or system is necessary for boats that don't fit into what already exists. :blink:


That's not an effective equivalent. You can go online and find PHRF ratings for the Viper 640 all over the country (99 in phrf ne). Then you can go to the LE site and see that there may be an issue, but their own by-laws allow them to make exceptions, and you can see that they've rated other boats that are considered sportboats and other boats that don't have lifelines. I think you could reasonably assume that therefore you should be able to get a rating. Now if he'd gone to their website and seen something that said "We don't rate sportsboats" and he bought one anyway, well, have fun building a fleet.

#13 hotair

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:32 PM

In defense of PHRF-LE, the run from CYC to MHYC is 30+ miles that has taken a few lives over the years.
Sometimes its a drifter, other times a roaring surf fest.
Lake Erie can, a times, be quite dangerous.
You have to have a good nose for changing conditions,
They are rightly cautious about small boats that might run into trouble.
If sport boats become more popular here, then eventually they may warm up to them.






#14 Ryley

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 02:18 PM

In defense of PHRF-LE, the run from CYC to MHYC is 30+ miles that has taken a few lives over the years.
Sometimes its a drifter, other times a roaring surf fest.
Lake Erie can, a times, be quite dangerous.
You have to have a good nose for changing conditions,
They are rightly cautious about small boats that might run into trouble.
If sport boats become more popular here, then eventually they may warm up to them.


But that shouldn't be PHRF-LE's call to make, it should be the event organizer's. PHRF LE's only purpose should be to make sure that a seaworthy vessel gets a fair rating. It is up to the OA's to determine whether a race is CAT 5, 4, 3, or lower and that the boats that register for that event are properly prepared and meet the requirements. For instance, my boat has a perfectly valid PHRF-NE certificate. However, I don't think I can remain competitive if the boat is properly Cat-3'd for the Chapman or the Beringer, but again - my boat's suitability for an offshore passage or distance race isn't PHRF-NE's call. The fight for inclusion should be at the event level.

#15 Mambo Kings

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:06 PM


In defense of PHRF-LE, the run from CYC to MHYC is 30+ miles that has taken a few lives over the years.
Sometimes its a drifter, other times a roaring surf fest.
Lake Erie can, a times, be quite dangerous.
You have to have a good nose for changing conditions,
They are rightly cautious about small boats that might run into trouble.
If sport boats become more popular here, then eventually they may warm up to them.


But that shouldn't be PHRF-LE's call to make, it should be the event organizer's. PHRF LE's only purpose should be to make sure that a seaworthy vessel gets a fair rating.



Correct.




As Ryley points out the Viper has a rating in New England that allows us to race round the cans at the mouth of Marblehead harbor on Wednesday evening series. However we cannot partcipate in any of the distance races, nor even the PHRF New England championships which is a weekend of round the can racing (head is required). Not arguing the rights or wrongs of admissability to individual events but that is the role of the event authority. PHRF just does its best to give a fair rating.

In some cases the rating authority is the same as the event authority, so they can give you a rating but deny your entry. (eg PHRF NE) We can debate pros and cons of eligibility for the PHRF NE championships but at least PHRF NE adheres to the right process.

#16 Mambo Kings

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:09 PM

For the record, my g/f agrees with PHRF New England that a head is an essential safety feature for a weekend of round the can racing. Sigh.

So I have gone to the other extreme. Watch out this year Ryley, you owe me so much time that as long as I finish on the same day as you, I win on handicap!

#17 airacer

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:18 PM

The bottom line is the sport is trending from racer cruisers to boats such as the Viper, M24, J-70, M20, etc. The people who want to go race, and those who want to buy a boat who are in the late 20's/early 30's, don't want a cruiser and don't want to race on one. I personally see more obituaries in my YC's news than new membership applications. Who am I going to race against 10 years from now?

People just want to come out and play and have fun in these PHRF events on Lake Erie. You don't need lifelines and a bow pulpit to do a 30 mile day sail race or W/L's at Bay Week. Give them a rating, collect their money, let them race when and where the organizers will allow it.

#18 Steam Flyer

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:21 PM

... ... I personally see more obituaries in my YC's news than new membership applications. Who am I going to race against 10 years from now?


Not guys in Vipers in PHRF, apparently !!

People just want to come out and play and have fun in these PHRF events on Lake Erie. You don't need lifelines and a bow pulpit to do a 30 mile day sail race or W/L's at Bay Week. Give them a rating, collect their money, let them race when and where the organizers will allow it.


Agree totally, it should be about inclusion UNLESS the committee is willing to state that thei purpose is to drive racing sailors away from participating. I made such a suggestion to our local PHRF ratings committee (which is not a bad bunch of guys, just backwards-looking most of the time) and they were NOT amused. However we do have a Viper with a PHRF rating here.

One of the points that can be made in defense of issuing a rating for those PHRF committee member who are concerned about safety of a small-ish boat with no lifelines etc etc... positive buoyancy. It won't f@#%^& sink like all those leadmine 4ksb's. How safe is that?

FB- Doug

#19 Ryley

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 04:31 PM

For the record, my g/f agrees with PHRF New England that a head is an essential safety feature for a weekend of round the can racing. Sigh.

So I have gone to the other extreme. Watch out this year Ryley, you owe me so much time that as long as I finish on the same day as you, I win on handicap!


Hmm, so you can't even get into the 'day racer' category, because you have a sprit. I'd just lash a portapotty to the foredeck so they knew you had one ;) Looking forward to seeing you out there! 'Course if your PHRF is that high, you sure you're in C class? :P :D

#20 ClimbnSail

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:47 PM

PHRF-LE has long had a problem with sportboats, they hammer the melges 24s and 32s, even FT10s. There is supposedly change coming in the form of some new board members, including one FT10 owner. We will just have to wait and see, apparently no change this year.

I hope they can get around this and work something out, it is terrible that they won;t rate the vipers, one of the fastest growing classes of boat, like someone said it is the type of sailing folks want to get into these days.

PHRF LE gave the M24 a ridiculous number and look at how many race on LE, Deeetroit aside (Lake StC), only one in cleveland that I am aware of. Way to be inclusive in a sport tarnished by exclusivity.

#21 hotair

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:32 PM

Back in the day, when the J35 came out, PHRF-LE gave it a rating of 60.

#22 Callahan

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 10:49 PM

Wow, I don't get it. 8 Vipers at the Bayview One Design regatta next week. I'm sure if somebody wanted to race the Sundance or Bay Week or Cleveland Race Week they don't need PHRF-LE to help get some of those guys to travel 150 miles to the east. The OA's for those races would be happy to give you a One Design start. I imagine if somebody came up and wanted to race in the Viper class at the BOD next week with a longer sprit, deeper keel,stern extension and big ass sails you would let them race even with you. Sure you would, because you should be growing the sport and you wouldn't want to be exclusive. Get a grip.

For the misinformed, there has been A FT10 owner on the committee for a couple of years now.The reason PHRF-LE does not rate Viper 640s are the class rules. Period. The Viper does not even minimally meet the fundamental rule. "PHRF Class Requirements apply to the racing to "Cruising/Racing" auxiliary sailboats, and not to establish equipment or construction standards. Adequate equipment and crew for conditions to be encountered is inescapably the responsibility of the skipper or master on a boat. However, as a cruising/racing auxiliary,the boat must have auxiliary power system and adequate accommodations for cruising. To be validated for racing in any invitational race the boat must have lifelines, bow pulpits and either a self-bailing cockpit or internal flotation sufficient to prevent the boat from sinking if swamped".

The committee has rated boats that don't meet some of the standards with a restricted rating. The restricted rating precludes from competing in a PHRF class in an invitational race like the Sundance. The only boat in the previously mentioned boats racing racing in the last few years is the J-22 and this case they have the required lifelines, pulpit, and accommodations. For the record, the PHRF-LE committee doesn't and hasn't rated Star boats, Interlakes, Lightnings, Thistles, 505s, multihulls and a host of others. There are alternative classes for all those boats who aren't racing One Design. It is called Portsmouth or Offshore multihull PHRF for multihulls. The PHRF-LE rules have been in effect for 30 years, long before the Vipers came on the scene.

#23 Callahan

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:07 PM

Hey hotair, how many members of the committee who made that decision are still on the committee? the answer is 0. The same J-35 that rates 72 now. How is that relevant? The paradox that the committee faces and will have with sportboats racing with leadmines is variation of courses, conditions and fleet. Simply put when you have a boat who's performance is on the outside edge of the polar curve it is essentially impossible with a single number system to fairly rate against other disparate boat types. The racing on Lake Erie is spread out over 350 miles with a variety of prevailing conditions. Unlike the PHRF Chesapeake which has about 90% W/L racing PHRF-LE does not control the race schedule, splits, or series. Tough problem. The best that can be done is to come to rating that gives the sportboats a good chance to win in some conditions and a little chance in others. Tell me how do you think a non planing boat feels like when he is left for dead on a 15 mile planing reach. About the same that a sportboat owner feels on a Wednesday night W/L in 10 knots of wind when the leadmine points straight at the leeward mark and sails a significantly shorter course. The sportboats ratings are reasonable in a relative sense to other sportboats. I guess the committee can go the IRC route and really punitively rate sportboats. Can a Viper 640 even get an IRC rating?

#24 hotair

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:23 PM

True, most of the guys I crewed for back in the 80's have passed from this earth and so has that 80's PHRF committee.

Suggest you ask PHRF orgs in other parts of the country how they deal with sportboats.
It is up to the race organizers to group comparable boats.
If there is only one sportboat in the group, then he is racing just for laughs.

#25 Callahan

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:27 PM

Hotair. Answer the question. Some of the other area control the racing, some just copy numbers out of the book. PHRF-LE doesn't. What do you propose as a better solution?

#26 NYBOZO1

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 01:20 AM

LE PHRF just rated my Columbia 32 Carbon at 42.

Good/bad/indifferent?

I really have no clue.

#27 hotair

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 02:08 AM

http://www.asba.org.au/ASBA/SMS.html

Here is a link to the SMS rating system being developed down under.
It is just for sport boats but it might give some insights one way or the other.
You will be able to get more out of it than I.

Obviously in a mixed fleet (heavy vs light), a single number system is not good enough, but on LE, you're the only game in town.
Applying one of three rating numbers based on average wind strength at the RC boat might work.
There's probably an app for that.
I assume scoring software has progressed substantially from the program Dave Shields wrote 30 years ago.

#28 clamslapper

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 03:16 AM

PHRF-LE has long had a problem with sportboats, they hammer the melges 24s and 32s, even FT10s. There is supposedly change coming in the form of some new board members, including one FT10 owner. We will just have to wait and see, apparently no change this year.

I hope they can get around this and work something out, it is terrible that they won;t rate the vipers, one of the fastest growing classes of boat, like someone said it is the type of sailing folks want to get into these days.

PHRF LE gave the M24 a ridiculous number and look at how many race on LE, Deeetroit aside (Lake StC), only one in cleveland that I am aware of. Way to be inclusive in a sport tarnished by exclusivity.




Well, come on now, you obviously understand that giving a planing boat a PHRF rating is basically an exercise in futility. They get hammered rating-wise because once they get out of displacement mode, all bets are off. You need to either assume that they will be planing downwind in medium air and up, or that they will never be planing. Neither of those assumptions is realistic. But what are you supposed to do as a handicapper? Hopefully, with sport boats, they will abandon PHRF and use something like a Portsmouth Yardstick, which at least accounts for various wind conditions.

Let's remember what PHRF racing is really for. It's for guys with racer-cruisers who like to get out there once in a while, have a nice outing with some good cocktails, and have an approximate way to figure out relative speeds. It is not a precise science by any means. F'Chrissakes, the same boats have wildly different ratings depending on where they are located. Take Olson 30s for example. In the PNW, they're 90 or 93. Yet there's one in New Jersey that rates 108, apparently because the skipper fussed so damn much! Part of why PHRF pickle dishes are generally silly from the word go.

Nothing is crazier than RCs who measure whole seconds in time, then do the PHRF calculations and go to the tenth of a second. I remember in one of our few PHRF races, they timed to the nearest second, but we lost on corrected time by .2 seconds!! It's just not capable of anywhere near that precision. Additionally, why time-on-distance is much more commonly used than time-on-time is something I'll never understand.

But I don't want to understand. I want to race OD, period.

#29 jet 203

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 11:55 AM

I know it's difficult for any group to rate the wide range of boats that each and every PHRF committee must consider. As for PHRF-LE their rule and regulations have been in place long before most of us bought our boats. While i'st very easy to sit here and type away bitching out how "mean they are to me", has anyone - or a group - ever gone to PHRF-LE with a well thought plan to update their rules and regulations?

#30 Test

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 12:33 PM

I win on handicap!

How oxymoronic, more PHRF whining from the VPM (Viper Propagandist Machine). Perhaps these folks could learn a few lessons from Tom Wylie?

#31 bulbouskeel

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 01:45 PM


I win on handicap!

How oxymoronic, more PHRF whining from the VPM (Viper Propagandist Machine). Perhaps these folks could learn a few lessons from Tom Wylie?


I agree, how much more propaganda does there have to be? I have sailed on Vipers. They are good boats but nothing out of this world, and in any kind of chop a Viper waddles upwind like an overfed flightless bird. A very simple rig that makes it easy for newbies to get reasonably sorted quickly (essentially, a big JY15 with a sprit.) The Viper fleet has way, way, way too many bumpercars and racers who are ignorant of basic rules (as well, of course, as some very good crews). For a three-up boat, I will always sail in a Thistle -- not quite as fast as a Viper but to my mind that is the most competitive three person sailboat without question. And we don't have assclowns with hamfistedly-drawn pictures of strippers on their spinnakers -- that's funny the first time you see it, then it's just pathetic. At any rate, why the incessant Viper-hype? Just put a fork in it dude.

#32 haz

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 02:09 PM



I win on handicap!

How oxymoronic, more PHRF whining from the VPM (Viper Propagandist Machine). Perhaps these folks could learn a few lessons from Tom Wylie?


I agree, how much more propaganda does there have to be? I have sailed on Vipers. They are good boats but nothing out of this world, and in any kind of chop a Viper waddles upwind like an overfed flightless bird. A very simple rig that makes it easy for newbies to get reasonably sorted quickly (essentially, a big JY15 with a sprit.) The Viper fleet has way, way, way too many bumpercars and racers who are ignorant of basic rules (as well, of course, as some very good crews). For a three-up boat, I will always sail in a Thistle -- not quite as fast as a Viper but to my mind that is the most competitive three person sailboat without question. And we don't have assclowns with hamfistedly-drawn pictures of strippers on their spinnakers -- that's funny the first time you see it, then it's just pathetic. At any rate, why the incessant Viper-hype? Just put a fork in it dude.

What a pompous, idiotic comment!

I don't own or race a Viper, but nothing in this thread had ANYTHING to do with promoting Vipers ... can you read?

I tend to agree that PHRF (no rating system, actually) can always do a credible job of rating a mixed fleet, but that's not necessarily the PHRF organization's problem. That's really the organizing authority's concern. PHRF actually works fairly well most of the time in widely mixed fleets, with some some exceptions around the edges due to planing. I've been our club's scorer for the last ten years, so I really have seen a fair amount of data (maybe 600 races involving 150 different boats).

OA's could easily have a PHRF sport boat class and include all the boats being discussed. If the fleet need protecting from the big, bad sporties, don't include them in the overall calculations!

Haz

#33 port tack

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 04:54 PM

And we don't have assclowns with hamfistedly-drawn pictures of strippers on their spinnakers

Hey there turbo I resemble that remark. If you don't like it don't look at it. Since your so in love with the Thistle, we will never be on the same course (thank God you sound like a douche bag).

in any kind of chop a Viper waddles upwind like an overfed flightless bird

You also must not be able to wrap you simple mind around that simple rig, because in breeze and chop we haul ass upwind and down. Oh course you have to know how to drive a sportboat not a Thistle.

So why don't you keep your Thistle propaganda machine (TPM) out of a Viper thread, and shut the hell up.

#34 hotair

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 05:25 PM

Lot's of love here today.

It's not called a Thistle for nothing. Especially after you sit in (on) one for awhile.



#35 bulbouskeel

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:12 PM

And we don't have assclowns with hamfistedly-drawn pictures of strippers on their spinnakers

Hey there turbo I resemble that remark. If you don't like it don't look at it. Since your so in love with the Thistle, we will never be on the same course (thank God you sound like a douche bag).

in any kind of chop a Viper waddles upwind like an overfed flightless bird

You also must not be able to wrap you simple mind around that simple rig, because in breeze and chop we haul ass upwind and down. Oh course you have to know how to drive a sportboat not a Thistle.

So why don't you keep your Thistle propaganda machine (TPM) out of a Viper thread, and shut the hell up.



You're the fucking wanker who owns that Last Call boat? Now that is class! A fucking embarassment.

*sigh*

(She's also a little thick-limbed, doncha think?)

A Thistle is a boat for men. Drop Mike Ingham or Skip Dieball and their respective crews into a Viper, and most of you guys wouldn't even see them.

#36 hotair

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:29 PM

Thistle sailors must drink their scotch straight up.

Wonder what style of boat Sandy Douglas would design today ?

#37 Steam Flyer

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:38 PM

... ...

A Thistle is a boat for men. Drop Mike Ingham or Skip Dieball and their respective crews into a Viper, and most of you guys wouldn't even see them.


Ya think? From reading the CRW list it looks to me like the Viper fleet has some pretty decent talent. OTOH it takes a certain mentality to be proud of getting owned by the same guy over & over; personally I prefer hitting myself in the shins with a 2x4 to sailing a Thistle, it feels exactly the same and I don't get sunburned.


... ...
Wonder what style of boat Sandy Douglas would design today ?


Well looking at the progress from the Thistle to the Highlander to the Flying Scot, it's hard to say but it certainly wouldn't have diamond shrouds and a wooden boom.
;)

FB- Doug

#38 port tack

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:41 PM

You're the fucking wanker who owns that Last Call boat?

Why yes I am. Are you the fucking Troll douche bag that sails Thistles and who doen't know how to tune a simple Viper rig?

She's also a little thick-limbed, doncha think

Big Girls need love too.

Drop Mike Ingham or Skip Dieball and their respective crews into a Viper

Please, they are invited to come out and play anytime. Love to sail against good sailors.

So stick with your mans boat, and leave us fun loving, speed needing, co-ed class sailing, simple rig tuning, Viper sailors to our own fun loving freak show.

P.S. - I am starting to think you just don't like women with comments like thisShe's also a little thick-limbed and this A Thistle is a boat for men

#39 clamslapper

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 01:44 AM

They are both excellent, excellent boats. The Viper folks have done a good job attracting top talent to the fleet. The front-runners are really good. The dropoff is fairly quick, but so is it with any newish class. Clearly more great sailors are giving Vipers a whirl.

You have to realize that Thistles have been around for decades and there have been over 4000 of them built. That is why the class has so many superb sailors. No matter how you slice it, it takes a long time to build a big fleet.

I would say the Viper is your best bet for a three-person boat for many years to come. It's quite a bit faster than the Thistle, much more simply rigged, and to my knowledge is happy in just about any weather conditions. Thistles get downright sketchy in heavy air. They are both extremely wet boats, but at least the Viper has an open transom. What a bummer it is to have a Thistle full of water -- and there's no deck at all to stop it from coming in.

I will say, though, that a Thistle sailing close-hauled is to my eye the prettiest boat on the water, excepting only Stars perhaps.

#40 Streetwise

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 02:06 AM

PHRF should give a rating. It will be a best guess.

We race with 102 on LC, and have to work very hard to use downwind to make up for upwind against j/29s and j/92s. We are in spin b with lighter boats, away from furniture cruiser/racers.

OD is great but PHRF is still fun if the class splits make sense. Check them every year, and I think they are best independent of PHRF unless PHRF really watches participation numbers.

Let SIs and NORs dictate boat requirements.

On Lake Champlain, the sportboats owe the Etchells for pushing no motor/no lifelines to normal status. Cruiser/racers are always friendly for a tow, a beer, or assistance. Our regatta committee tries to get all the racers out we can!

Cheers,

Jason

#41 Mambo Kings

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 02:20 PM


I win on handicap!

How oxymoronic, more PHRF whining from the VPM (Viper Propagandist Machine). Perhaps these folks could learn a few lessons from Tom Wylie?


The boat I was referring to in that post was my Sea Sprite 23' designed by Carl Arlberg in 1957 (a vintage year). We race them one design in Bristol Rhode Island and occasionaly (if the RC doesnt mind stayiing out on the water waiting for us) PHRF.

Ryley's steed is so much faster than my little but lovely Sea Sprite and he owes me so much time that I commented that if I even finished on the same day as Ryley I would probably beat him on handicap.

As a proud member of the SPM (Sea Sprite Propaganda Machine) , I would argue that Tom Wylie would agree that we could all learn a few lessons from Carl Alberg.

As to the LE-PHRF, sadly I can only conclude from earlier posts that although a Sea Sprite has crossed the Atlantic, the lack of lifelines would prohibit us from getting a rating. Their loss, because it really is a very beautiful vessel.



Posted Image

#42 watersong26

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:42 AM

Maybe this was said already, and I was too lazy to read it all...
LE-PHRF has had a long standing reputation for not giving phrf ratings to the smaller sport boats. example, melges 24s. And the lifelines is usually the case. This was in effect LONG before this viper was brought to the lake.

The melges 24 owners in the past were allowed to race anyways, and usually the regatta chair gave them a rating similar to other areas.

#43 watersong26

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:44 AM

A Thistle is a boat for men. Drop Mike Ingham or Skip Dieball and their respective crews into a Viper, and most of you guys wouldn't even see them.
[/quote]



I believe Skip recently purchased a VX and it is being demo-ed in cleveland this weekend.

#44 Ryley

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:45 PM

Mambo Kings,
Alberg really knew how to draw a pretty boat. Your Sea Sprite is beautiful.

#45 RockHead

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 04:24 AM

Drop Mike Ingham or Skip Dieball and their respective crews into a Viper, and most of you guys wouldn't even see them.


Mike is a friend, he's been kicking my butt on the racecourse for years. He has a standing invitation to jump in a Viper for a regatta. I'm going to keep after him until it happens.

Good sailors will rise to the top in any class. Most sailors turn up for the fun and camaraderie, only a few will go home with pickle dishes.

#46 airacer

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Posted 22 September 2012 - 09:26 PM

More evidence of hypocrisy from PHRF-LE. Funny that they will not rate a Viper, but they will rate an old design with no motor, lifelines, or pulpit. See Here:


October 23, 2011 - PHRF-LE MEETING MINUTES – Houlihan’s, Westlake OH
Attendance: Doug Howe, Bill Kellner, Colin Mills, Dick Synowiec, David Lengyel, Joe Roetter, Dave Ryan,
Chris Merkle. New committee member: James Kulwicki. Guests: Chris McCardle, Dan Sadoski, Dave Caracci
Administrative – Minutes approved from the September 26th meeting.

New Applications Base Rating

Classic 5.5 Meter – Joseph Gelsomino-Little Sister-BHSC; no lifelines; owner is OK with restricted rating; 168
the committee voted to issue a restricted certificate even though boat does not have a motor. It is up
to the race committee at owner’s club to provide on the water support/chase boat. Jim Kulwicki, the new
rep in the Buffalo area will contact club to point this out.

#47 jokerx9

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Posted 23 September 2012 - 01:04 AM

Bascially, PHRF in general is a scam in my opinion. Its very political and I am not sure how much work they actually do to make sure they are providing accurate information. Yet they will be happy to take your money year to year to renew your PHRF rating. Its nice when you can attend class regattas and PHRF as no authority. Moral of the story is get someone on the PHRF LE committee to buy a viper and see how fast they give the viper a rating.

#48 eerie sailor

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 03:21 PM

There is a VIPER on Lake Erie that has a rating. :ph34r: 

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#49 Tiger 20

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 07:06 PM

Good one . LO L ^_^



#50 GybeSet®

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:05 AM

great

all they need in that fleet now is a Viper class called 'tigger' to really confuse things

 

ho hum 






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