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How high can a windsurfer point?


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#1 tikipete

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:16 PM

Inquiring minds...

#2 TeamFugu

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:26 PM

Inquiring minds...

It all depends.

What kind of board is it?
Short wave board, long board, dagger board, skeg size and shape, wind strength.

Too many variables to just say, XX degrees. I think 45 degrees true would be very good. Some configurations might get as high as 40 but from my experience, that would be a stretch.

Short wave boards do well to get to 60 or 70 true. But then they aren't built to go windward/leward.

I always figured if I could get back to where I started without having to walk a mile along the beach I was doing OK as long as what happened between the launch and landing were fun.

My big problem was that after you reach a certain level, you spend more and more time sitting on the beach waiting for enough wind to get that adrenaline rush.

#3 tikipete

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:31 PM

Just starting. JP Australia long board (SUP/Windsurfer really).

#4 Lamps

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 07:30 PM

Just starting. JP Australia long board (SUP/Windsurfer really).


In light to medium air if you have a good daggerboard and skeg and you sheet in tightly you should be able to point pretty good. I suspect that an SUP board that is decently designed and has a daggerboard would be a good pointer.

As stated earlier short wavesailing boards don't point as good but that's not what they are about. If you can find a good river situation, on a windy day when the breeze is blowing against the current you can have a sweet deal where you wipe out and get dragged upwind by the current. The breeze going up current creates larger chop/standing waves to boot. This is like dying and going to heaven only better - never ending reaches.

Sorry if that's not a very good quantitative answer, i got distracted...

#5 RedTuna

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 11:33 PM

The fin on the Windsurfing/SUP picture I found didn't look very good for pointing; kinda short with a freeride rake. And it wasn't clear enough to tell whether it was an A or E box base. Or some proprietary base. Get a good pointer fin that matches your sail size. It'll also get you up on a plane sooner. Or good weed fin, if sea grasses are an issue. They can point pretty well, too.

#6 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:24 AM

The WindSUP type boards require a lot of windward heel to 'point', I'd use the words 'go upwind' though, as your setting yourself an impossible task if you expect to 'point'.

If you're coming from a dinghy/yacht background then you'll be sorely disappointed about the upwind angles of a board, even one with a centre plate like my old Kona. There are specialist formula and race board kit that when powered up on the fin or 'railing', can point as high as say a Laser, but that kit is a bit special and not really as much fun in my limited experience.

The trick is to get head out of that course racing space- windsurfers are beach toys, very nice beach toys that a very, very rewarding to sail. As Fugu says if you can avoid the walk of shame by getting downwinded on the beach then you're doing really well. And by the way, we all still get downwinded, especially in tidal conditions, so take your licks and learn from it knowing you're not alone.

The one article I found very, very useful was this (it transformed my sailing as a beginner) It'll apply to a SUP board with a rig too:

http://www.guycribb....k Depressed.pdf

#7 mustang__1

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 12:56 PM

if you ask GRF, they must go higher and faster than a 49er.

#8 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 01:15 PM

if you ask GRF, they must go higher and faster than a 49er.


you forgot 'and doesn't look as ghey/retarded/unfit for purpose/heavy/colonial' ;-)

#9 Reht

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 02:20 PM


if you ask GRF, they must go higher and faster than a 49er.


you forgot 'and doesn't look as ghey/retarded/unfit for purpose/heavy/colonial' ;-)


He'd probably also tell you that they're actually easy to sail, while some boats are obviously impossible in all sorts of conditions.

Windsurfers are (in general) a blast-around toy, not a racing machine. Unless you get the really specialized (read: $$$) equipment you're not going to be pointing very high. that doesn't mean that you won't make good pace upwind if you try, going 20-something knots it doesn't take much angle upwind to make significant progress...

#10 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 03:22 PM

I heard he's out there bothering the 'seppos' on a Stand Up Paddleboard holiday. No shit. He really is... paddling away, showing y'all how it's done.

#11 tikipete

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 05:39 PM

The fin on the Windsurfing/SUP picture I found didn't look very good for pointing; kinda short with a freeride rake. And it wasn't clear enough to tell whether it was an A or E box base. Or some proprietary base. Get a good pointer fin that matches your sail size. It'll also get you up on a plane sooner. Or good weed fin, if sea grasses are an issue. They can point pretty well, too.


Weed fin. We have extensive grass flats in this area.

#12 Amati

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:41 PM

A large centerboard/daggerboard helps. On any board. Even a windsurfer ain't bad upwind with a big center foil. Not fast off the wind either. And not very steady off the wind. Can you say railing up? And you and your sail (rip!) can fall on it when it is pulled up. You are now beginning to understand why windsurfers have tried to move away from CB/DB's. If the board is thick enough for a CB, great, but that is complex and heavy. If not thick enough, the sharp aft end of the foil pokes through the hull just waiting for your foot to step on it. If the board is not thick enough, manufacturers kidded themselves into proclaiming that really high aspect CBs (that coincidentally fit inside the hull) were the next evolution for upwind prowess. No. They were not. Unless the wind was up. But then big skegs work pretty well in big air too.

Oh we tried hanging them from our arm, or the boom, or bungying them to the deck downwind, etc etc.

:)

#13 tikipete

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 10:44 PM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DIvGXLznh2w

What do you think about this guy? Makes sense to me.

#14 Chris 249

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 03:07 AM

A racing longboard when powered up can point with a performance dinghy; i.e. the old round bottomed D2 Lechner Olympic boards could point with seahugger Moths (perhaps a bit higher) or International Canoes. The 12'+ Raceboards are a few degrees lower than most dinghies once powered up; you don't want a fast dinghy on your lee bow but you're not dramatically lower. Formula boards are probably similar, tacking through maybe 95 degrees, but I'm no expert on that.

In light winds, the boards are considerably lower than the boats, and most of them struggle to tack quickly.

Hybrids, SUPS, slalom boards, waveboards etc point considerably lower, although good slalom boards can tack through maybe 95-100? in big breeze as they have so little drag.

Boards are a perfectly valid racing discipline and are certainly not restricted to being a beach toy if they are in the hands of people who have spent enough time learning how to race them. My club board fleet includes sailors who have finished in the top 5 in the world in 18 Foot Skiffs, Moths and B14s and won many boat titles (NS14s, J/24s, offshore, Laser etc) and we find them fascinating to race.

#15 tikipete

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:18 AM

Thanks! The idea is that my F16, uni, is too much boat once the wind is 12 +. So, my thinking is to sail the cat in light air, then hop on the board once I start to get over powered. I'm really not concerned about finishes or scores, just having more time on the water and it looks like I've found a winning combination that will provide plenty of personal challenges.

Cheers! ( I'm off to try and learn this board.)

#16 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 11:50 AM

Boards are a perfectly valid racing discipline and are certainly not restricted to being a beach toy if they are in the hands of people who have spent enough time learning how to race them.


My reference to a 'beach toy' probably needs qualifying. I'm referring to the popular boards that are actually selling- most freeride, FSW and wave boards are beach toys, and bar the odd slalom derivative, make pretty useless upwind race horses. The OP was referencing a WindSUP type board, again a recreational beach toy, therefore to compare to upwind character to a dinghy is only going to yield frustration.

I think you're lucky to have the board racing on offer. My experiences with racing a Kona (is it really a race tool???) against dinghies proved the disciplines don't mix too well- certainly at club level using a PY scheme.

#17 BalticBandit

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:37 PM



Boards are a perfectly valid racing discipline and are certainly not restricted to being a beach toy if they are in the hands of people who have spent enough time learning how to race them.


My reference to a 'beach toy' probably needs qualifying. I'm referring to the popular boards that are actually selling- most freeride, FSW and wave boards are beach toys, and bar the odd slalom derivative, make pretty useless upwind race horses. The OP was referencing a WindSUP type board, again a recreational beach toy, therefore to compare to upwind character to a dinghy is only going to yield frustration.

I think you're lucky to have the board racing on offer. My experiences with racing a Kona (is it really a race tool???) against dinghies proved the disciplines don't mix too well- certainly at club level using a PY scheme.


Recently saw a photo of myself on my Musto in light air... and was astounded how similar it looked to photos of me back when I started racing on the old Longboards....

No wonder I like skiffs.


As for pointing... as with a skiff, I could make a board POINT almost to the moon.... but it was not "fast".... part of it is that boards, like skiffs, are AWA boats and hence a skosh "lower" than the highest you can make it point may well be the better VMG..

#18 BalticBandit

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 06:57 PM

A large centerboard/daggerboard helps. On any board. Even a windsurfer ain't bad upwind with a big center foil. Not fast off the wind either. And not very steady off the wind. Can you say railing up? And you and your sail (rip!) can fall on it when it is pulled up. You are now beginning to understand why windsurfers have tried to move away from CB/DB's. If the board is thick enough for a CB, great, but that is complex and heavy. If not thick enough, the sharp aft end of the foil pokes through the hull just waiting for your foot to step on it. If the board is not thick enough, manufacturers kidded themselves into proclaiming that really high aspect CBs (that coincidentally fit inside the hull) were the next evolution for upwind prowess. No. They were not. Unless the wind was up. But then big skegs work pretty well in big air too.

Oh we tried hanging them from our arm, or the boom, or bungying them to the deck downwind, etc etc.

:)


Damn I remember two races vividly. One was the Districts in Nantucket where it blew about 20 and I could not bear off to save my life. If I pulled the daggerboard before bearing off, the 6' swell knocked me off the board before it was moving stably. And if I didn't pull the board before the bearoff, I bore off - accelerated to about 15 knots and immediately railed up!!!! (my first year sailing)

The other one was a few years later when I'd had a bit more high wind experience and I bore off in 20knts having been beaten to the weather mark by a D2 Lechner. I had the daggerboard over my shoulder.... NExt thing I knew I was blind from the water shooting up out of the board slot.... I barely could figure out where the leeward mark was, but really couldn't see anything else. How my contacts stayed in is a mystery to me.

At the leeward mark I looked for the Lechner and didn't see it.... Figured he was ahead of me. Turns out I passed him about 1/3 of the way down the leg, and according to him I had a geyser of water arcing about 4' over my head!!!

#19 tikipete

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:04 PM

No joy. Low pressure from the south, squalls all day.

#20 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:14 PM

Give it a couple of years Pete, the. You'll be clearing your day to get out in it with a FSW/ wave board and 5m sail!!!!

BB- i've been thinking the best 'light wind' windsurfer is a dinghy! If racing wasn't part of my dinghy requirements thenI can't think of a better compliment to a board quiver than a MPS!

#21 BalticBandit

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 07:59 PM

No joy. Low pressure from the south, squalls all day.

Perfect for some high speed rides!!!

#22 tikipete

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:16 PM

First I need to learn to stand up!

#23 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 08:55 PM

N'ah - fall with style!

#24 GybeSet®

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 12:23 AM

First I need to learn to stand up!

well thats solves your pointing problem


you can worry about it another time



#25 mustang__1

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:04 AM


First I need to learn to stand up!

well thats solves your pointing problem


you can worry about it another time



after he solves the banking problem and world hunger.




#26 tikipete

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 07:07 AM



First I need to learn to stand up!

well thats solves your pointing problem


you can worry about it another time



after he solves the banking problem and world hunger.




I can solve my problem with you right now, 'bye.

#27 gui

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 01:13 PM

Thanks! The idea is that my F16, uni, is too much boat once the wind is 12 +. So, my thinking is to sail the cat in light air, then hop on the board once I start to get over powered. I'm really not concerned about finishes or scores, just having more time on the water and it looks like I've found a winning combination that will provide plenty of personal challenges.

Cheers! ( I'm off to try and learn this board.)


Not a bad call. That was a bit my idea with the moth and some windsurf gear, but I sorta failed ...
I've windsurfed most of my life, and went through long periods when I would get rid of all my windsurf crap, just keep 2 small sails and a wave board. Sometimes I'd only windsurf once in 2 years, while mostly sailing that other obsession of the moment (i14, moth, IC, ...). I'm back to a minivan full of windsurf crap, that keeps me on the water from 8kts to 30+ and I'm wondering what to do with the unused moth/ic. The logistic is a lot simpler too. Any body interested in a moth? Or a green IC? ;)

The formula has a reasonable vmg, probably on part with your F16, modulo wind conditions. Every once in a while, we sail with the cats out of the WRSC/Maryland, we are a lot lower than all the cats when it's light, it gets a bit better when the wind's up.

#28 tikipete

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 01:27 PM

My favorite regatta is Tradewinds. http://www.catsailor...ndsStory12.html The last three years, maybe, I've had to sit it out or struggle with an unfamiliar crew (good crew just not enough time to practice) because the wind was in the 15+ range. I've come to the conclusion that trying to set and operate a spinnaker single handed is beyond my abilities anytime there are white caps. So, the long board! If it just gives me more time on the water I'll be well satisfied.

#29 hobie17li

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 01:33 PM

I have a Hobie Getaway with spin that I usually single hand and hope it stays
under 15-or so then I have a fairly floaty short board with 7.0 - 4.2 sails
doesn't point but not supposed to. I also have an ultra cat full size board
centerboard can point, but not that comfy planed of in more breeze, just too
big..i haven't used in 20 years..all about comprimizes

#30 i42

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:19 PM

Just to add my 2 cents. Here is a polar plot from a 10-20 mph wind day here in the midwest. I was on a 12' modern raceboard and a 9.5m^2 race sail. All in all I went about 40 miles that afternoon. As you will see tacking through 90 is pretty easy. The best ride is off the wind about 135 degrees with the centerboard up and planing like a fool.

I have raced with lasers and 420s in light to medium winds. In light wind it is no competition the windsurfer easily sails faster and higher. If I pump they have no chance. In moderate breeze, it just gets easier to walk away from them. Of course keep in mind this is on essentially the old Olympic class windsurfing board, and the 420s and lasers are not the fastest dinghies in the world.


For more on racing windsurfers check out midwest organization of windsurfers site (MOWIND). The Columbus day race is were we normally race 420s and lasers at the University of Iowa Sailing Club.



Attached File  Superlight2and9_5Msail.jpg   89.99K   77 downloads


#31 freewheel510

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 06:17 AM

Just to add my 2 cents. Here is a polar plot from a 10-20 mph wind day here in the midwest. I was on a 12' modern raceboard and a 9.5m^2 race sail. All in all I went about 40 miles that afternoon. As you will see tacking through 90 is pretty easy. The best ride is off the wind about 135 degrees with the centerboard up and planing like a fool.

I have raced with lasers and 420s in light to medium winds. In light wind it is no competition the windsurfer easily sails faster and higher. If I pump they have no chance. In moderate breeze, it just gets easier to walk away from them. Of course keep in mind this is on essentially the old Olympic class windsurfing board, and the 420s and lasers are not the fastest dinghies in the world.


For more on racing windsurfers check out midwest organization of windsurfers site (MOWIND). The Columbus day race is were we normally race 420s and lasers at the University of Iowa Sailing Club.



Attached File  Superlight2and9_5Msail.jpg   89.99K   77 downloads


Looks like you point a lot better on starboard than on port, and you foot like crazy (mad speed!) on port. Otherwise, like most ink-blot tests, it somehow reminds me of women's private parts.

How did you build this chart anyhow ??

#32 ortegakid

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 04:14 PM

So how high can kiteboards point? Have always wanted to try, but want to sail not jump so much.

#33 Ron D

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 04:19 PM

How did you build this chart anyhow ??


Neat. He's found some groovy gps software.

http://gpsactionreplay.free.fr/

#34 four20

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 04:38 PM

So how high can kiteboards point? Have always wanted to try, but want to sail not jump so much.

Formula boards point about 55 degrees upwind
http://www.carbonsugar.com/design/everything-you-should-know-about-fw-fins/

The top kite course boards are 1-2 degrees higher upwind and just about straight downwind.

#35 Amati

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 01:08 AM


Just to add my 2 cents. Here is a polar plot from a 10-20 mph wind day here in the midwest. I was on a 12' modern raceboard and a 9.5m^2 race sail. All in all I went about 40 miles that afternoon. As you will see tacking through 90 is pretty easy. The best ride is off the wind about 135 degrees with the centerboard up and planing like a fool.

I have raced with lasers and 420s in light to medium winds. In light wind it is no competition the windsurfer easily sails faster and higher. If I pump they have no chance. In moderate breeze, it just gets easier to walk away from them. Of course keep in mind this is on essentially the old Olympic class windsurfing board, and the 420s and lasers are not the fastest dinghies in the world.


For more on racing windsurfers check out midwest organization of windsurfers site (MOWIND). The Columbus day race is were we normally race 420s and lasers at the University of Iowa Sailing Club.



Attached File  Superlight2and9_5Msail.jpg   89.99K   77 downloads


Looks like you point a lot better on starboard than on port, and you foot like crazy (mad speed!) on port. Otherwise, like most ink-blot tests, it somehow reminds me of women's private parts.

How did you build this chart anyhow ??


You'd better hope that no future employers see that last post. Especially if they employ one of the standard multi phasic personality tests.

:lol:

Heh heh. Heh heh heh.

It looks like a Moth. Yeah, that's it. A Moth.

:)

Repeat.

That sounds normal. That sounds normal. THAT SOUNDS NORMAL!!!!!!!!

Uhhhhhhhhh........

#36 freewheel510

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 03:28 PM

Inquiring minds...


Asking how high a windsurfer can point is like asking how long is a string.

Pointing ability is a function of rig/sail size and efficiency and hull/centerboard size and efficiency. The absence/presence of a rudder and presence/absence of a universal joint is mostly irrelevant. (Standing up provides more windage than sitting down, so that is one fundamental difference, offset some by the lower profile of the sailboard compared with a sit-down boat.)

The division 2 round bottom hulls used in the 1984 Olympics pointed very high, but were almost impossible to sail downwind.

I used to race the original one-manufacturer Windsurfer. It pointed about 3-5 degrees less than a Laser in light winds, and was a bit slower in displacement mode, being shorter. But over 10 or 12 kt of wind, we would plane to weather, point 10 degrees lower than the Laser (which doesn't plane to weather), and go faster upwind. In that case we tacked through about 110-120 degrees.

Modern boards have smaller, or no, centerboards and more efficient sails. But still, it depends what you mean by "a windsurfer".

#37 tikipete

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 05:27 PM

SUP/Windsurfer.

I think I was confused by a culture difference between windsurfers and the rest of us. A lot of WS guys just want to go fast and never develop any particular skill for going to weather, hence the "walk of shame". Back in the day I actually remember one guy dragging his H-16 back up the beach because he just could not point!

The answer to my original question seems to be, "How hard do you want to work to learn the skill?" As with most things sailing related it seems to be up to the skipper. I wondered because there isn't much hanging down in the way of lateral resisitance. Being an absolute novice, I hadn't considered the rail.

#38 dogwatch

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Posted 09 June 2012 - 06:52 PM

The division 2 round bottom hulls used in the 1984 Olympics......were almost impossible to sail downwind.


I wouldn't go that far. I was by no means talented as a windsurfer and but I could get one downwind. They were a joy upwind. But when funboards came along, nobody wanted to sail div II anymore.

I did a bit of longboard racing against dinghies and on something like a Mistral OD could outpoint a Laser if tactically I needed to. However pointing that high wasn't the quickest way to the windward mark.

#39 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 05:00 PM

Without a centrboard Going upwind in planing mode- riding the fin- is a totally different skill to going upwind in displacement mode, where you'll need to use the windward rail as a makeshift centreboard to stop sideways slip.

I think some Wind sups offer a central fin option- for sub planing winds I'd fit a big fin in there if possible.

#40 tikipete

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 05:05 PM

I need to learn to stand up first! I have about 2 hours experience. My instructor/dealer says I don't need a fin and the gaskets never work anyway, so at speed I'd be constantly fire hosed! Adding stuff will be my last resort.

#41 freewheel510

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 05:09 PM

SUP/Windsurfer.

I think I was confused by a culture difference between windsurfers and the rest of us. A lot of WS guys just want to go fast and never develop any particular skill for going to weather, hence the "walk of shame". Back in the day I actually remember one guy dragging his H-16 back up the beach because he just could not point!

The answer to my original question seems to be, "How hard do you want to work to learn the skill?" As with most things sailing related it seems to be up to the skipper. I wondered because there isn't much hanging down in the way of lateral resisitance. Being an absolute novice, I hadn't considered the rail.


You got it. With a lot of centerboard/fin like on the old OD windsurfers, we'd dip the lee rail to go to weather - I'm still not sure why it helped -- maybe by keeping our feet out of the water, but it definitely was faster. With a tiny board, you dip the weather rail so that some of the planing lift goes toward pushing you upwind. Either way, it's a matter of focusing on figuring out what you want to do, learning what works and developing the techniques.

#42 dogwatch

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 05:33 PM

You got it. With a lot of centerboard/fin like on the old OD windsurfers, we'd dip the lee rail to go to weather - I'm still not sure why it helped


Increased lateral resistance. Course racing boards like the F2 Lightning had boxy rails to increase the effect. Made them a bit reluctant to gybe though. Not sure if this one is a Lightning but it shows the design type.

Posted Image.

#43 tikipete

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:44 PM

http://calema.com/

This SUP is just begging for a sail! Though, in other photos it looks as big as a sunfish. I wonder if at some point, some radical thinking designer is going to put the dinghy/catamaran/windsurfing thinking together.

#44 Reht

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:35 PM

http://calema.com/

This SUP is just begging for a sail! Though, in other photos it looks as big as a sunfish. I wonder if at some point, some radical thinking designer is going to put the dinghy/catamaran/windsurfing thinking together.


There have been attempts (I don't have any links, but I remember something like what you describe), but to my memory they weren't particularly good at emulating any of the original concepts. If you think about it, the feeling of sailing a cat is so different to a windsurfer, which again is so different from dinghy sailing that you can't really get the feeling of all three without losing their essence in the mix.

#45 tikipete

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 10:58 PM

For the purist perhaps. I'm thinking ease of operation, efficiency around the course, transport and cost.

My experience with cats is that the modern boats, especially the spin boats, have a vmg that is not to be believed unless you've actually experienced it. Unfortunately they are increasingly expensive. I also don't like the overall size of the package i.e. 8 1/2 feet wide, 16-20 feet long. I know nothing of dinghys but the pictures I've seen show an absolute jumble of lines.

When it comes to cats, the F16 is the least expensive of the modern boats and I can buy 4 windsurfers for the same price. Yet I haven't seen it demonstrated that any of them are faster around the course than a windsurfer. Problem with windsurfers is they're so damned hard to learn!

In any case they should all fit into a box, like this: http://www.sail-the-...atamaran/ninja/

#46 ojfd

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:08 AM

The division 2 round bottom hulls used in the 1984 Olympics pointed very high, but were almost impossible to sail downwind.


Windglider was the chosen class for the 1984 Olympics and its bottom wasn't round at all. I've sailed that thing quite a lot back then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Windglider.svg/500px-Windglider.svg.png

Attached File  wg.jpg   108.7K   3 downloads

#47 cal40john

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:29 AM

He only missed it by one Olympics, the round bottomed D2 Lechner was selected for 88.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_II_(windsurf_board)




The division 2 round bottom hulls used in the 1984 Olympics pointed very high, but were almost impossible to sail downwind.


Windglider was the chosen class for the 1984 Olympics and its bottom wasn't round at all. I've sailed that thing quite a lot back then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/Windglider.svg/500px-Windglider.svg.png

Attached File  wg.jpg   108.7K   3 downloads



#48 Elegua

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:47 AM

The new gear they make these days is sooooo much easier to sail than the stuff made even 10 years ago. A little back foot pressure and some waves will get you upwind on a short fin really quick. These new twin and quad fins make beach starting a snap and since about 10 years ago, the new designs make water starting really easy. I can barely drag a one design to the water's edge. Sooo heavy!

#49 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:24 AM

The best short board I've used for upwind work in sub-planing conditions is this twin fin from RRD:

Posted Image

The fins seem so forgiving so keep you tracking well and there's plenty of volume up the nose so you can really work the weather rail without stalling.

#50 G.R.F.

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 10:44 AM

I've often wondered what would have happened if Div 2 had continued to evolve, at the time of its demise there were rumours of 490 Superclass boards being developed in France, but the Funboard era and Raceboards in general wiped them out as almost the entire racing group of the period moved over. We have the occasional battle at my home club between an old Lechner from the period rigged up with a 9.5 doing battle with modern race boards and it rarely wins out other than in a total drifter which mostly racing sailboards don't go out in. They never got fitted with reliable working mast tracks which make longer boards faster off wind and very few of them had centreboards that fully retracted, so the bulk of the volume of those round boards were pretty hopeless off wind, only the later M1's, DB2's, Davidsons and the last gen Lechners had those benefits but they retailed for a couple of thousands bucks back then at the turn of the eighties so were the province of a very few Pro sailors.

As to how they go against dinghies, every week we have one of our Tuesday night crew race in the Sunday morning Dinghy race, I can beat him on a board, I've yet to do it in a dinghy, nor has anyone else and that includes half decently sailed MPS's Contenders, 505's, RS500's, 100's, Blazes and the trusty Alto, we came close once when he fell in at a gybe in a windy race in the Alto, but never managed to stick it.

I'd imagine a foiling moth in its condition would do it as would a Formula in its condition, but for all round, all weather racing, not much can best a modern Raceboard, they point a degree lower than say a Contender but just go faster and make better VMG.

As for a rig on a SUP, something we were talking about in my recent visit to the Gorge, Slingshot (Kiteboarding) have this super light hollow carbon racing SUP just fresh from their skunkworks, I'd love to chuck a rig on it, at 14 lbs it would really fly, however with no centreboard, just fins, they aint going to point worth a damn, but being quite wide and long they'll certainly track well and should be easy enough to learn to sail.

#51 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 11:53 AM

Has anyone seen one of these actually race yet? If I were going to have another crack at racing a board against a boat, then this seems like the best option.

But at >£2k ($3400) for the board alone, it seems like a pretty expensive punt, even if I could just whack on a recreational rig to see how it goes?

Posted Image



#52 tikipete

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:08 PM

I think it needs two hulls.

#53 i42

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:13 PM


Just to add my 2 cents. Here is a polar plot from a 10-20 mph wind day here in the midwest. I was on a 12' modern raceboard and a 9.5m^2 race sail. All in all I went about 40 miles that afternoon. As you will see tacking through 90 is pretty easy. The best ride is off the wind about 135 degrees with the centerboard up and planing like a fool.

I have raced with lasers and 420s in light to medium winds. In light wind it is no competition the windsurfer easily sails faster and higher. If I pump they have no chance. In moderate breeze, it just gets easier to walk away from them. Of course keep in mind this is on essentially the old Olympic class windsurfing board, and the 420s and lasers are not the fastest dinghies in the world.


For more on racing windsurfers check out midwest organization of windsurfers site (MOWIND). The Columbus day race is were we normally race 420s and lasers at the University of Iowa Sailing Club.



Attached File  Superlight2and9_5Msail.jpg   89.99K   77 downloads


Looks like you point a lot better on starboard than on port, and you foot like crazy (mad speed!) on port. Otherwise, like most ink-blot tests, it somehow reminds me of women's private parts.

How did you build this chart anyhow ??


The wind was pretty shifty. I am using a windsurfing GPS tracking software. I would have to go look it up again because this chart is a little older. Anyway, the program will export a polar plot of all the data it collects. You can get more info on the software at (http://www.gps-speed...tem=GPSsoftware). However, from racing I know I am a little more comfortable on port headed downwind and more comfortable on starboard upwind. I know it is odd but I am working on it.

#54 i42

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:20 PM

I think it needs two hulls.


tikipete, if you are in the midwest, I would be happy to find you some windsurfing buddies. Having some friends to go out with will help you progress faster.

#55 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:46 PM

I think it needs two hulls.


Posted Image

http://www.star-boar...serenitycat.php

#56 tikipete

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:59 PM

:lol: No thanks.


I think it needs two hulls.


tikipete, if you are in the midwest, I would be happy to find you some windsurfing buddies. Having some friends to go out with will help you progress faster.


I'm in Florida but thanks anyway.

#57 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:30 PM

Hey GRF... didn't you develop something similar for Weymouth Speed Week once?

#58 jmetcher

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 08:58 AM

Has anyone seen one of these actually race yet? If I were going to have another crack at racing a board against a boat, then this seems like the best option.

But at >£2k ($3400) for the board alone, it seems like a pretty expensive punt, even if I could just whack on a recreational rig to see how it goes?

Posted Image



I went around a course on one of these pretty much level-pegging with a decent RS700 - but he had the foiler kit and it was too gusty for him to stay foiling, so he was probably not as fast as he wanted to be. Then again, I was sailing with all the grace and poise of a geriatric corgi that day, so mabye we're even. Either way, there's no doubt this thing is right in the mix with performance dinghies for speed and angle. If anything this will point higher than Lasers, 420s etc, not quite as high as NS14s.

The only other race result I know of was the Aussie nats, but everyone involved seems to have taken a vow of silence.

#59 tikipete

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:13 PM

I like the notion of a "twin surfer". Not a catamaran, you do not want to go there!

You take the main hull from one of those 18 lb. Hawaiian paddling canoes, marry a pair together, slap something like a windsurfer boom onto the cross bars, cover the boom with netting to make a tramp, add the biggest windsurfer rig known to man, place a top of the line pilot aboard to de-bug the thing. You should end up with something that will keep up with a modern cat for 1/3 the cost.

If, in 30 minutes, you can break it down and put it in the box I posted the other day, fame and fortune await! I think...

#60 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 06:05 PM

Cheers Jaime - I'd be well up for trying one, bit against dinghies again and on the LB scene here,, but I don't want to waste money on a 'punt' so unless there's demo kit kicking around I'll stay in the freeride closet for the mo.

#61 narecet

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 06:37 PM

I like the notion of a "twin surfer". Not a catamaran, you do not want to go there!

You take the main hull from one of those 18 lb. Hawaiian paddling canoes, marry a pair together, slap something like a windsurfer boom onto the cross bars, cover the boom with netting to make a tramp, add the biggest windsurfer rig known to man, place a top of the line pilot aboard to de-bug the thing. You should end up with something that will keep up with a modern cat for 1/3 the cost.

If, in 30 minutes, you can break it down and put it in the box I posted the other day, fame and fortune await! I think...

Why is this not a catamaran, or how does it differ other than using the windsurfing rig?

The existing crossarms for an OC canoe would be nowhere near strong enough. Once done with getting it strong enough, I'm not seeing the difference between this and an unstayed conventional catamaran?






#62 tikipete

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 07:21 PM


I like the notion of a "twin surfer". Not a catamaran, you do not want to go there!

You take the main hull from one of those 18 lb. Hawaiian paddling canoes, marry a pair together, slap something like a windsurfer boom onto the cross bars, cover the boom with netting to make a tramp, add the biggest windsurfer rig known to man, place a top of the line pilot aboard to de-bug the thing. You should end up with something that will keep up with a modern cat for 1/3 the cost.

If, in 30 minutes, you can break it down and put it in the box I posted the other day, fame and fortune await! I think...

Why is this not a catamaran, or how does it differ other than using the windsurfing rig?

The existing crossarms for an OC canoe would be nowhere near strong enough. Once done with getting it strong enough, I'm not seeing the difference between this and an unstayed conventional catamaran?


"catamaran" involves a whole host of social issues, they are more Balkanized than the Balkans! There lies madness.

I didn't say use canoe cross arms. As always you use whatever works. Cats are obsessed with weight, so they make the initial logical error of prescribing a minimum weight. The F16s made a major break through in mind set when they eschewed a minimum crew weight choosing instead to make the limitation on righting ability i.e. if you're heavy enough to right the boat you're heavy enough to sail in the class. Had they chosen NOT to set a minimum boat weight they'd be much further along imo.

I'm looking for a boat (of any configuration) that offers fast efficient sailing, easy to set-up, transport and store, for the lowest possible price. So far, that's a windsurfer but they're very difficult to learn.

#63 jmetcher

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 09:23 PM

I'm looking for a boat (of any configuration) that offers fast efficient sailing, easy to set-up, transport and store, for the lowest possible price. So far, that's a windsurfer but they're very difficult to learn.


Only if you think falling off 5000 times while looking about as cool as an epileptic in a log-rolling contest is "difficult". If you're up for that, it's all good.

#64 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:23 PM

difficult to learn is a relative term... Id agree windsurfing does seem difficult to me, but then I've spent 30 years with a tiller, mainsheet and more recently kite sheet in my hands all at once. But at our sailing club's training centre there's been guys out on proper beginner kit (Starboard Rios and HiFly thingies) that have got to grips with moving, turning and basic sailing far quicker they did in the club Wayfarer.

It goes to show that if you take a genuine beginner, then windsurfing is actually quite intuitive- the body movements accentuated by 'look and lean where you want to go' genuinely do work. Whereas pull the stick towards you, let out the rope, sit in a bit, pull the centreboard up, release the outhaul, kicker off and slacken cunningham... oh and make sure you don't bear off too far or you'll gyb...... CLUNK.... oh yes, if that happens again, duck!

#65 tikipete

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:50 PM

I'm told the ante for windsurfer competence is 400 falls.

#66 Amati

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 10:57 PM

Check out this video on YouTube:




Sent from my iPad


:lol:

edit- this too

http://cctexan.tripo...peed/index.html

#67 Amati

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 11:20 PM

Although if you think about the notion of a multihull windsurfer, it might be somewhere in-between, say, a 2 metre RC tri, and a kayak trimaran.

Without the need for

1) the amas to create righting moment for a stationary sit down sailor,

2) the width of the main hull to be beamy enough to allow a sit down sailor

The smaller spiral would seem to start working for you. How light could you go? Narrow? Stand on the narrow middle hull, a platform or maybe the the cross arm?

Fun to think about. I need to get out and work on the sailing canoe.

Paul

#68 Chris 249

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 01:37 AM

Jim Drake and (IIRC) Jim Antrim did the Waterspyder cruising trimaran windsurfer years ago. I can't find my pic but a vid of one modified into a sit-down try is at

Apparently they were heavy and the rig was damaged when it dropped onto the floats, but I still like the concept.

There are two Exocet D2s at my club, but I haven't had a chance to chat to the guys recently. I think they are roughly similar to a Raceboard or old Olympic D2 board in all-round speed, but with performance characteristics (ie optimal wind range and angle etc) between the two. So as Jmetch says, probably around 700/MPS/Canoe speed, in general and without pumping.

There was only one at the Aussie nats (the other arrived later) and the sailor was new to the board, had recently lost a lot of weight, and had handling issues. I think one is mid pack at the current worlds, where old boards (F2 etc) are doing well as are the Starboards of the last couple of years.

#69 jimmy kneewrecker

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Posted 13 June 2012 - 08:10 AM

Hi Chris,

Interesting you mention the guy lost a bit of weight, my thoughts were this board might suit the heavier guy more than other raceboards seem to.

If you hear or see anymore about this board, especially as to how well it performa with heavier riders, please keep us posted, I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers

Jimbo

#70 tomfla

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:58 AM

Hi Chris,

Interesting you mention the guy lost a bit of weight, my thoughts were this board might suit the heavier guy more than other raceboards seem to.

If you hear or see anymore about this board, especially as to how well it performa with heavier riders, please keep us posted, I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers

Jimbo


Back in the day there were a group of windsurfers using F2s known as the "Fat Boys". Not that they were really fat, just that guys like Scott Steele who was thin as a rail when he won a silver and Mike Gebhart who at the time was "one of those little rubber people who don't shave yet" were probably 50 pounds lighter. Of course the speed windsurfers were bigger and heavier, thus the Fat Boys moniker.

#71 BalticBandit

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 04:22 AM


Hi Chris,

Interesting you mention the guy lost a bit of weight, my thoughts were this board might suit the heavier guy more than other raceboards seem to.

If you hear or see anymore about this board, especially as to how well it performa with heavier riders, please keep us posted, I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers

Jimbo


Back in the day there were a group of windsurfers using F2s known as the "Fat Boys". Not that they were really fat, just that guys like Scott Steele who was thin as a rail when he won a silver and Mike Gebhart who at the time was "one of those little rubber people who don't shave yet" were probably 50 pounds lighter. Of course the speed windsurfers were bigger and heavier, thus the Fat Boys moniker.


I remember the North Americans in 1983 in Isle of Palms.... First Day was ultra light - 4-6. I was in the Fat Boys div. at 175# and somehow managed to struggle to the weather mark in about 10th by playing the shifts right. And then on the Reach Leg (sailing Olympic triangle) this Spider Monkey aa "little rubber person" just blows by me THROUGH MY LEE!!! And another.. and another....

But we paid them back the next day when it blew stink and they couldn't bear off!!!.

#72 Chris 249

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:27 AM


Hi Chris,

Interesting you mention the guy lost a bit of weight, my thoughts were this board might suit the heavier guy more than other raceboards seem to.

If you hear or see anymore about this board, especially as to how well it performa with heavier riders, please keep us posted, I'd really appreciate it!

Cheers

Jimbo


Back in the day there were a group of windsurfers using F2s known as the "Fat Boys". Not that they were really fat, just that guys like Scott Steele who was thin as a rail when he won a silver and Mike Gebhart who at the time was "one of those little rubber people who don't shave yet" were probably 50 pounds lighter. Of course the speed windsurfers were bigger and heavier, thus the Fat Boys moniker.


Yeah, the '85 vintage F2 Lightning (and I think the basic shape went from '84 to '86/7 or so) was a bit of a big boys board, because the rocker was so flat for so long. At the Worlds in '85, we on the F2 team found that lighter guys like me (75kg then and about the same now) couldn't weigh the tail down enough to lift the nose out and reduce wetted surface on the reaches. Of course, that didn't stop the really good guys, but it hurt hackers like me.

#73 Amati

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 07:36 PM

The Mistral Superlight was, iirr, really better than it should have been in super light winds - like faster than my CRIT 650. When the wind got to 3-4 K, I walked away. BUT after 8-10 K or so, tables turned again.

This between two guys ~210 lbs.

I liked the rule of thumb of board volume in litres equalling sailor weiht in pounds. Seemed to work on both sides of the planing divide.

#74 vikram

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:35 PM

i have a couple sup boards - got the first one very early on when the 12' tuflite laird was one of the only options...
i have a smaller one (a mctavish) for waves - i added a mast track to the Laird - its great fun - was out on it this
weekend - with a 4.2 kids rig from sailworks - so everybody can try - wind was about 8kts - ummm you need to get
one - its too fun

#75 steveromagnino

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 11:40 AM

I've seen the prototype of the Exocet around since the period when they selected the RSX and it looks like they have improved and improved to a board that actually looks really pretty cool now.

Of course, Patrice in the video is a f&*king good sailor, so makes it look dead easy.

I might have to wander down and see if I can blag a go on one of these, looks like a load of fun.




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