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VOR Leg 8


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#801 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 12:22 PM

The VOR boys keeps making the AC sailors seem like like a bunch of limp wristed nancy boys

Latest blog from Chris Nicholson

#802 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 04:47 PM

.........Yep, Groupama wins the Volvo almost for sure........


...yup,,with the points the way they are,,,I imagine the other boats will be all over each other,,,unless they gang-up on Groupama :huh:

#803 crashdog

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:53 PM


I would say that from the Azores toward the Finish, Tele clearly had the measure of the conditions. Although they carried plenty of sail area, they were conservative (see Iker's comment about their setup on the night of the 2nd break). Camper appeared to be carrying more sail through the heavy air, judging from the various pictures and comments by Camper.

There is no such thing as bad luck in sailing, so calling it bad luck that they had rudder breakage would be wrong. Iker thinks they hit something to break the first rudder. After that, they kept pushing, and why not, they are in it to win. They delammed a rudder during a gybe in 25 foot waves and 40 knots of breeze. Many of us have broken equipment in far less difficult conditions than that. So has Groupama, for that matter. The whole incident derives from the original break, which was not likely the result of carrying excess risk, but of hitting something.

We are all sitting in our comfy chairs critizing these guys for carrying too much risk (Tele) or not carrying enough risk (Puma). I'm not sure we have that right. To gain that right we would need to prove ourselves out there...



To paraphrase Oscar W., to lose one rudder is bad luck, to lose two is carelessness. The comments from Cammas and Caudrelier suggest that the Telefónica boys were pushing significantly harder than either Groupama or Puma were willing to, at least initially, and continued doing so after the breakage of the first rudder. G4 and Puma had taken their spinnakers down to face the worst of the depression, then G4 saw Telefónica pass them with spinnaker up. As Riou said "we didn't like that very much" so they unfurled their own spinnaker again and took more risks to keep up with Tele. In a way it was a fight to the finish, and Tele just broke first. Coville, Cammas, Caudrelier all said they had had one of the hairiest nights in their long sailing careers (and they must have had a few).


What, would you have had them chicken out? They were sailing to win. And if they had to push others hard, then what is the wrong with that. Or maybe they should have cruised along like Sanya?

As to breaking rudders, they broke the rudder that was in the water. Perhaps it was a difficult wave that rotated the boat violently, but that would be a design/manufacture problem. So not a sailing fault. Or else they hit a floater - very unlikely, given the big ocean, etc. So maybe a biologic. Still, not their fault. They cracked the port rudder after the gybe, when they had a reduced sailplan up. They talked about the breakage happening in the gybe, so we can't say that the rudder was in the optimal of attack. Given the lateral angle of the rudders, there is a fundamental design vulnerability. Again, more likely a design/manufacture fault. When they were inspecting the damage, they auto-gybed and damaged the windward rudder, likely in the roundup. A number of other boats talked about standing gybes so the design of the rudders should have that built in. The breakage was again likely a design/manufacture fault.

I know is that I have never broken a rudder in any gybe at 40 knots. And I have done a few. Neither have I broken a rudder steering in big waves downwind. Its not something you have in your mind as a vulnerability. The thing you are most worried about in those situations is hitting something. It isn't that common. Very unlikely to happen twice in an afternoon. The conclusion on the cause of break is pretty clear to me.

Dude on the couch said it best. There are a bunch of opinions floating around from those who aren't out sailing. Hands up how many have gybed in 40 knots. With running backstays. On boats larger than 40 ft. In a race. In a sudden-death scoring situation. Not many, I would guess.

#804 Pierre S

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:09 PM

Well, I've never gybed in 40 knots. I actually go out of my way to avoid 40 knots. I wasn't aware that having gybed in 40 knots was a necessary qualification for commenting on this thread.
I also have an opinion on the way the Dutch football team played tonight against Portugal, and those guys all play much better football than I ever have or will.

#805 couchsurfer

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:23 PM

Well, I've never gybed in 40 knots. I actually go out of my way to avoid 40 knots. I wasn't aware that having gybed in 40 knots was a necessary qualification for commenting on this thread.
I also have an opinion on the way the Dutch football team played tonight against Portugal, and those guys all play much better football than I ever have or will.


..it was prolly important to crashpuppy that we know he's one of the few to be -fully qualified- to pontificate here ;)
....I still think the teletubbies had some bad luck,,,AND they were inviting it,especially after their first rudder was toast,,and they were charging to the front again,
...it's difficult to tell wether this agrees or conflicts with crashgyber's opinion,tho :)

#806 schakel

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 02:06 PM


Well, I've never gybed in 40 knots. I actually go out of my way to avoid 40 knots. I wasn't aware that having gybed in 40 knots was a necessary qualification for commenting on this thread.
I also have an opinion on the way the Dutch football team played tonight against Portugal, and those guys all play much better football than I ever have or will.


..it was prolly important to crashpuppy that we know he's one of the few to be -fully qualified- to pontificate here ;)
....I still think the teletubbies had some bad luck,,,AND they were inviting it,especially after their first rudder was toast,,and they were charging to the front again,
...it's difficult to tell wether this agrees or conflicts with crashgyber's opinion,tho :)


I am not very proud on my national soccer team this year. 2 years ago we were in the final of world championship! Not a very fair match though. (from our side)
http://www.fifa.com/...2010/index.html

But the european feeling France winning the VOR! makes it good.
Anyone studied the eurocrisis around bankrupt Greece, very close Spain, and Italy following?
With a warning from the president of the worldbank of the United Nations that the threatening fall of the Euro might endanger world economy?
http://www.guardian....collapse-crisis

Perhaps more for political anarchy but still.

Glad Groupama won this leg.

#807 Summerwind

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 02:12 PM

Sorry schakel, but I just couldn´t resist. <_<

Posted Image

#808 Cyrille Hydrogene

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 07:41 PM

The last night on the way to Lorient sure was tough for everyone:

A broken wheel protection onboard Groupama:

http://lockerz.com/s/217910488






#809 onimod

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:41 PM

The last night on the way to Lorient sure was tough for everyone:
A broken wheel protection onboard Groupama:
http://lockerz.com/s/217910488


looks like someone or something ony just stayed onboard too:
http://lockerz.com/s/217909934
It's a bit hard to tell but it looks like some sprit damage to ADOR too: http://lockerz.com/s/217908798

#810 Swanno (Ohf Shore)

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 12:43 AM


The last night on the way to Lorient sure was tough for everyone:
A broken wheel protection onboard Groupama:
http://lockerz.com/s/217910488


looks like someone or something ony just stayed onboard too:
http://lockerz.com/s/217909934
It's a bit hard to tell but it looks like some sprit damage to ADOR too: http://lockerz.com/s/217908798


That bow on AD is just ugly.

#811 Danno

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 12:58 AM

Just like a fat girlfriend....

Any bets on how the jury will rule on Telefonica/Abu Dhabi/Groupamas application to pull their boats out or remove their rigs respectively?

The rules would be a joke if the decide they can - I mean, why make a rule, then decide to change it when the problems they we're trying to prevent, occur....

#812 onimod

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 01:40 AM

Pulling the boat or mast costs 2 points according to the other thread:
http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=3756021

I wonder what the largest cherry picker that G4 can source in Lorient?

#813 Cyrille Hydrogene

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:03 AM


The last night on the way to Lorient sure was tough for everyone:
A broken wheel protection onboard Groupama:
http://lockerz.com/s/217910488


looks like someone or something ony just stayed onboard too:
http://lockerz.com/s/217909934
It's a bit hard to tell but it looks like some sprit damage to ADOR too: http://lockerz.com/s/217908798



It's apparently a feature on G4, to be able to stack the sails as far back as possible, says the caption.

ADOR bow really looks battered...

#814 onimod

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 07:11 AM



The last night on the way to Lorient sure was tough for everyone:
A broken wheel protection onboard Groupama:
http://lockerz.com/s/217910488


looks like someone or something ony just stayed onboard too:
http://lockerz.com/s/217909934
It's a bit hard to tell but it looks like some sprit damage to ADOR too: http://lockerz.com/s/217908798



It's apparently a feature on G4, to be able to stack the sails as far back as possible, says the caption.

ADOR bow really looks battered...


Thanks for the translation.

#815 dlangpap

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:53 PM

Can anyone shed a light on why the boats can't be repaired out of the water after one of the, if not the most, gruelling legs of the race? Is it allowed after other legs? Does it make sense to you? Isn't there an increased chance of breakage (i.e., a worse race) if they are not able to repair them well?



#816 Gorn FRANTIC!!

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:10 AM

Several reasons have been brought up in the Leg 9 thread, 1 being lack of room to haul all the boats out, 2 is a cost cutting measure for the teams.

The rule has been written into the NOR & SI's since they were issued, all the teams knew about them.

#817 Moonduster

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:03 AM

The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.

#818 couchsurfer

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:26 AM

The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.


mannn,that really compounds the benefits to those boats who were being conservative on the last leg :blink:
...I wonder if Pooma and others had this in mind,,it would help explain kenny's geriatric attitude to the tactics on the last leg :)

#819 nroose

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:27 AM

The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.

I don't understand. If cost cutting is not part of it, then why didn't they allow any of the substitutes?

#820 couchsurfer

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:33 AM


The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.

I don't understand. If cost cutting is not part of it, then why didn't they allow any of the substitutes?

...it sounds like the other rudders are different shapes,T-foils or something,,,and the're limited to the same shape so the gear war's limited to your one -measured- design(?)

#821 Terrorvision

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 05:41 AM


The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.

I don't understand. If cost cutting is not part of it, then why didn't they allow any of the substitutes?


Look at the tension it is building as they go out for the last few vital points. Halfway between Auckland and Brazil, Knut and his cronies must have been wondering what state the race would be in by the time they got to the big markets of the US and Europe. Fast forward to the first night out of Miami and keep going until you get to today and they could not be happier.
They may not have anticipated the Azores hitch to be a boat-breaker so the no-lift rule was probably never expected to be a game-changer but you can bet that the eyeballs on the Volvo will be significantly higher as they approach Galway and then on to the finish.
I have no particular favorite in the race, but I must say that Team Kenny has been the most impressive and I have not warmed to Camper at all. I think Groupama has targeted the French speaking audience and have cornered that top the exclusion of the English speaking but that is who Groupama is aiming for and that is where Cammas, Colville et al will be pitching their future sponsorship proposals to so good on them for staying focused.

#822 rule69

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:03 AM



The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.

I don't understand. If cost cutting is not part of it, then why didn't they allow any of the substitutes?

...it sounds like the other rudders are different shapes,T-foils or something,,,and the're limited to the same shape so the gear war's limited to your one -measured- design(?)


IIRC, the NOR limits the number of rudders that can be measured in for each boat for this race. Tele would exceed that number if they put on a rudder other than the ones they measured in with. So, they'd take a penalty for that even if the spare rudders were identical to the old ones. The substitute rudder(s) would still have to measure in under the VOR 70 rule but under the NOR Tele would no longer be the same boat.

#823 umpire

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:59 AM

The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.


There is plenty of space in Lorient. If they can get BPV and the Groupama tri on the hard at the sametime, they can get 6 VOR boats on it.

#824 nroose

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:59 AM



The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.

I don't understand. If cost cutting is not part of it, then why didn't they allow any of the substitutes?

...it sounds like the other rudders are different shapes,T-foils or something,,,and the're limited to the same shape so the gear war's limited to your one -measured- design(?)

Oh. Sorry. I was unclear. I didn't mean gear. I meant the other ways of pulling the boat out of the water enough to effect repairs - the aforementioned cranes, barges, and floating drydocks.

#825 umpire

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:24 AM

From the VOR site, Teams are taking options



#826 umpire

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:22 AM


The cost cutting rumor is just that. The problem is lack of space in L'Orient. And, not only is hauling prohibited, but so are cranes, barges, floating drydocks, etc. No lifting one end of the boat, no masts in and out, nothing.


There is plenty of space in Lorient. If they can get BPV and the Groupama tri on the hard at the sametime, they can get 6 VOR boats on it.


On reflection, maybe not after they've put the village there

#827 Moonduster

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:42 AM

Remember, it's the Village plus the 6 team bases plus the 6 boats.And VOR wants to keep everything nice and close together for the benefit of the viewing public. I've looked around a bit but can't find the article, but the decision really is just about the lack of space.

Regarding cranes and barges, it just makes sense that if the plan is for the boats to stay in the water, that they really just stay in the water. Keeps it simple, fair and easy to plan around.

It's interesting to think about the challenges with the next running and a OD approach, with a goal of more boats and the impact that will have on port selection.

#828 harzak

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 09:44 AM

I assume Abu Dhabi is trying to win a prize for most points in the in-port series (they're currently 2 points behind leader Puma).

The two point deduction for hauling out of the water, would that count against the in-port scores? If not, I don't understand why Abu Dhabi tries to fix Azzam on the water. Could be a case of great sportsmanship.