179 replies to this topic

[Windy6327]

A quick search and I found a modification proposal from Fred Barrett design that shows the lines of Mr Kite.

Does the canting keel really add that much to the rating?

http://fb-yd.com/wp-...NT-MARINE_B.jpg

[Windward Mark]

btw - everyone was discussion div splits but I havent been able to find them on the web page? can anyone point me to the right section?

Found it, sorry.

be nice and share, won't you?

http://www.cyca.com.au/sysfile/downloads/asgcyr12_divs.pdf

Wow, Calm II need to do something about their IRC rating. Giving away between 20 - 40 points to the other TP52's is a tough hurdle to start with.

Any thoughts on how well Duende will handle the hard running conditions forecast?

Mr Kite seem to be the odd boat out in IRC Div 1, but with their rating...

Both IRC Div 1 & 2 are chockers with fast and competitive boats. It's gunna be a great race.

Mex

Do you mean Couger 11??

[Ocean View]

Looking like great racing weather

http://www.bom.gov.a...rine/wind.shtml

[Mexican]

btw - everyone was discussion div splits but I havent been able to find them on the web page? can anyone point me to the right section?

Found it, sorry.

be nice and share, won't you?

http://www.cyca.com.au/sysfile/downloads/asgcyr12_divs.pdf

Wow, Calm II need to do something about their IRC rating. Giving away between 20 - 40 points to the other TP52's is a tough hurdle to start with.

Any thoughts on how well Duende will handle the hard running conditions forecast?

Mr Kite seem to be the odd boat out in IRC Div 1, but with their rating...

Both IRC Div 1 & 2 are chockers with fast and competitive boats. It's gunna be a great race.

Mex

Do you mean Couger 11??

Why, yes, yes I do.

[Jason AUS]

Any thoughts on how well Duende will handle the hard running conditions forecast?

Depends on if all their kites hold together... I think they'd only just reached Bondi in the Hobart race when the first one went?

[Shutyomouf]

Lots of wet nappies to be had, just from the sheer joy of the race

[AVID]

What a year for the McConaghy 38 to miss

[Skipper_nz]

Any thoughts on how well Duende will handle the hard running conditions forecast?

Depends on if all their kites hold together... I think they'd only just reached Bondi in the Hobart race when the first one went?

Pretty sure that was their 2nd one at bondi

[Jason AUS]

Any thoughts on how well Duende will handle the hard running conditions forecast?

Depends on if all their kites hold together... I think they'd only just reached Bondi in the Hobart race when the first one went?

Pretty sure that was their 2nd one at bondi

So we're agreed that Duende will go very nicely downwind with a poled out jib?

:-)

[nixon]

btw - everyone was discussion div splits but I havent been able to find them on the web page? can anyone point me to the right section?

Found it, sorry.

be nice and share, won't you?

http://www.cyca.com....gcyr12_divs.pdf

Wow, Calm II need to do something about their IRC rating. Giving away between 20 - 40 points to the other TP52's is a tough hurdle to start with.

Any thoughts on how well Duende will handle the hard running conditions forecast?

Mr Kite seem to be the odd boat out in IRC Div 1, but with their rating...

Both IRC Div 1 & 2 are chockers with fast and competitive boats. It's gunna be a great race.

Mex

And a Bene 45!!! At least we don't have to worry about the swarm of 40s!

[Grogo]

Good Luck boys & girls stay safe!

[nq66]

ETA for WO11 IS ANYONE GAME

[Bill E Goat]

ETA for WO11 IS ANYONE GAME

6.30am tommorrow

[BAR KARATE]

ETA for WO11 IS ANYONE GAME

6.30am tommorrow

I don't think you will be far off, currently doing 22knts and more breeze to come ....

[DickDastardly]

Anyone know what happened to AFR at the start? I saw them go out the heads behind most of the fleet...

[MSA]

Yeah Baby.. Go you good thing.. Hope Campbell could understand the rig card I sent last night.. Talk about last minute!!!

A long long way to go still.

[capt araldite]

Anyone know what happened to AFR at the start? I saw them go out the heads behind most of the fleet...

Windward Mark called me and said they done a 720 shortly after the start, dont know why. They are pulling back through pretty quickly though.

OCL 2 retired with steering problems..... again

[Phil]

AFR did 720 before the Pigs

[capt araldite]

AFR did 720 before the Pigs

Which was shortly after the start

[ralph wiggum]

frantic out. bugger

[Windy6327]

WO Xi takes the record at 22hr 3min 40sec

[GybeSet®]

http://goldcoast.cyc...ordering=normal

[MR.CLEAN]

anyone see any pics?

[Windward Mark]

anyone see any pics?

Yeah, chech out sail-world......

[Phil]

anyone see any pics?

Mel took plenty and put them up on our Facebook page - including Windward Mark's visit in his 505.

[Ocean View]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

[MR.CLEAN]

anyone see any pics?

Yeah, chech out sail-world......

I would but I read enough press releases without having to click on the biggest peddler of them.

[dreadom]

anyone see any pics?

Yeah, chech out sail-world......

I would but I read enough press releases without having to click on the biggest peddler of them.

If only Australia had a great yachting photographer.......

[MR.CLEAN]

Or maybe a world renowned one?

[stranded]

and a rib ?

[BooBoo]

What an EPIC race. I went over to do mainsheet on the ‘Living Doll’.
Top boatspeed was 31.7kt with regular bursts into the 30s, no headsails at all for the whole race other than prestart. The whole night was just a ‘sendfest’ with the Fractional Zero(FRO) water everywhere, some massive waves and some big snouts into the back waves. Broke the fractional halyard and dropped the FRO into the piss at a great speed.
We ended up 4th on line and handicap.
Races don’t really come any better than that. A nice start, night of sending it HARD, then a sunny day of mid/light VMG running to dry out, followed by a rum jug frenzy in southport.
We were a whole day ahead of last year when we won it on IRC on the Doll.
Now back in the office in Auckland already and managed an afternoon at home with the family yesterday- perfect.
I call it a win.

[the paradox of thrift]

That was a great race Boo Boo. Thoroughly enjoyable.

Well done on the good result. It was actually quite a tough race tactically and there was some hard work at times.

Sending yachts - tick.
Sunshine - tick.
Good Racing - tick.
Good company - tick.
Good food - tick.
Rum Jug Frenzy - tick.
Avoiding Police Incidents in Southport - tick.

If anyone didn't enjoy that race they need to give it away!

[Mexican]

It'll be one of those races that sailors will embelish the speeds, the size of the waves, the amount of water coming back down the deck, etc, etc..

A great run, and if you missed it, then you missed one of the best.

What made it fantastic was that it wasn't too windy and the waves weren't too big (could've been further apart). The boats were fully powered up and you just had to find your level of risk. We created at least one vacancy in our sail wardrobe (auditions start before Hamo) and learnt a lot about gaps in our boat / sail handling.

'til next year

Mex

[Mexican]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

[Mexican]

What an EPIC race. I went over to do mainsheet on the ‘Living Doll’.
Top boatspeed was 31.7kt with regular bursts into the 30s, no headsails at all for the whole race other than prestart. The whole night was just a ‘sendfest’ with the Fractional Zero(FRO) water everywhere, some massive waves and some big snouts into the back waves. Broke the fractional halyard and dropped the FRO into the piss at a great speed.
We ended up 4th on line and handicap.
Races don’t really come any better than that. A nice start, night of sending it HARD, then a sunny day of mid/light VMG running to dry out, followed by a rum jug frenzy in southport.
We were a whole day ahead of last year when we won it on IRC on the Doll.
Now back in the office in Auckland already and managed an afternoon at home with the family yesterday- perfect.
I call it a win.

How did Rob Date enjoy the ride?

Must have been bitter sweet for him...

Mex

[BooBoo]

Yeah Rob was bloody sensational. I think he had a really good time.
Bummer about the Scarlett Runner not being there but at least he got to do the race on a comparable boat.
His horse won its race too.

[2XD]

it was a cracker of a race, we had a division win so all happy here. bring on the hobart

[mh111]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

[Windward Mark]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

Agree with your thoughts.... It is a great feeling when your on a mid fleet boat and win one overall but they are few and far between. I gotta ask, why Celestial? They didn't win their division.

[mh111]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

Agree with your thoughts.... It is a great feeling when your on a mid fleet boat and win one overall but they are few and far between. I gotta ask, why Celestial? They didn't win their division.

to me 12th overall on that boat suggests they have sailed well, and the boat has performed above expectations. i'm not thinking about rating really as there are too many other factors in this, and i have no faith any more in IRC producing a fair result. on the other hand we all know how celestial usually performs, and this race was way above expectation ie they sailed well compared to the others.

can't say that about too many others in the fleet - most boats were just about where you'd expect.

cheers,

[LDH]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

Had a chat to noddy after the race and the smiles were ear to ear, they obviously had a ball good on them for such a great result!

The stories in the bar were sensational. The rum was plentiful and the drinking games were rampant. I witnessed the last drinks call and can say there will be a lot of sailors in a world of hurt today

... And mankini dodgeball never eventuated - phew!

[the paradox of thrift]

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

I think it's odd in many races when they don't name an outright winner, just class winners.

I do think however that a 'boat of the day' prize that rewards a better than normal effort or an act of sportsmanship or good seamanship would be a welcome addition.

Why not get someone to sponsor it - like a gear manufacturer - and the sailors can submit a vote for the prize at the sponsors display stall at the finish (guarantees 100's of visitors).

Edit - for the record my 'boat of the day' would have gone to Pendragon as well!

[mh111]

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

I think it's odd in many races when they don't name an outright winner, just class winners.

I do think however that a 'boat of the day' prize that rewards a better than normal effort or an act of sportsmanship or good seamanship would be a welcome addition.

Why not get someone to sponsor it - like a gear manufacturer - and the sailors can submit a vote for the prize at the sponsors display stall at the finish (guarantees 100's of visitors).

Edit - for the record my 'boat of the day' would have gone to Pendragon as well!

imho IRC does not allow boats of different size to compete effectively against each other, so an 'overall' winner on IRC is never accurate. that is why often there is only class winners (if using IRC)

on the otherhand the media need a 'race winner' and don't care if it's fair or not, so...

cheers,

[DickDastardly]

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

I think it's odd in many races when they don't name an outright winner, just class winners.

I do think however that a 'boat of the day' prize that rewards a better than normal effort or an act of sportsmanship or good seamanship would be a welcome addition.

Why not get someone to sponsor it - like a gear manufacturer - and the sailors can submit a vote for the prize at the sponsors display stall at the finish (guarantees 100's of visitors).

Edit - for the record my 'boat of the day' would have gone to Pendragon as well!

imho IRC does not allow boats of different size to compete effectively against each other, so an 'overall' winner on IRC is never accurate. that is why often there is only class winners (if using IRC)

on the otherhand the media need a 'race winner' and don't care if it's fair or not, so...

cheers,

Ditto for ORCi or PHS. Let's get this straight, it's not an IRC issue, it's a single number handicapping issue. The breeze crapped out on the mid size and small boats this time around, so it was a big boat race under any system. Could just have easily been the other way around or anything in between.

Of course there's always a fair chance the the idea of an overall winner under any system is pretty meaningless to the sailing fraternity. But ask any non-sailing punter if it makes sense that there's no overall winner and...

The irony is that performance curve scoring would probably make more sense to a non-sailor than a sailor.

[rumpig]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

It was an awesome race on Celestial. 25.8 max boatspeed, But sitting on 21-22 alot during saturday night.

[Mexican]

imho IRC does not allow boats of different size to compete effectively against each other, so an 'overall' winner on IRC is never accurate. that is why often there is only class winners (if using IRC)

on the otherhand the media need a 'race winner' and don't care if it's fair or not, so...

cheers,

I think we're all in violent agreement, however, I'd suggest it's not the fault of IRC as a measurement system but more the nature of ocean racing. You're always going to have the biggest boat finishing in a different weather system to the smallest boat. There's a reason why Wild Oats XI won the Hobart in IRC overall and the next year it was won by Too True (Beneteau First 40). It the luck of the draw.

Divisional results have a lot more relevance to crew performance as you are comparing like with like.

With all this in mind, it stands that Pendragon had a cracker run. The only non-carbon, non-custom, non-grand prix yacht in the top twelve.

The preverbial dog balls.

Mex

[bfp]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

Thats a big call. Can you explain why you think Loki sailed worse than Pendragon or Celestial? I do not understand the justification for the comment. Where did Loki go the wrong way. What sail change did Loki stuff up? What equipment did Loki break? At what point did Loki back off during the night that makes you say that they did not deserve to win.

There is no doubt that Pendragon performed better than other similar sized boats, but who is to say that they performed better than Loki.

Part of offshore racing is prepare your boat well, sail well and then get the weather that suits your size boat, if you want to win overall. It is part of the game. In this race, it was always (from at least a week out anyway) going to be a big boat race. Loki seems to be a well prepared and well sailed boat that found it's ideal conditons in this race.

I thought Loki sailed an supurb race and was a well deserved winner.

[BooBoo]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

Thats a big call. Can you explain why you think Loki sailed worse than Pendragon or Celestial? I do not understand the justification for the comment. Where did Loki go the wrong way. What sail change did Loki stuff up? What equipment did Loki break? At what point did Loki back off during the night that makes you say that they did not deserve to win.

There is no doubt that Pendragon performed better than other similar sized boats, but who is to say that they performed better than Loki.

Part of offshore racing is prepare your boat well, sail well and then get the weather that suits your size boat, if you want to win overall. It is part of the game. In this race, it was always (from at least a week out anyway) going to be a big boat race. Loki seems to be a well prepared and well sailed boat that found it's ideal conditons in this race.

I thought Loki sailed an supurb race and was a well deserved winner.

+1, Loki sailed a great race, they smoked us on the living doll.

The Stewart 34s are amazing boats, for a 50 year old design they are pretty quick and do actually get planning in decent breeze.
There are lots of them in NZ, both racing and cruising.

[Ocean View]

No matter which handicap system - IRC seems to work and we can moan about it for days if we like.
In reality it seems to be a reasonable system
But as always - designers will always spend time and $$ with their expertise to design multiple boats and submit them as trial certs to work out how to best optimise around the flaws in the system.
And as always some existing boats will just rate well under IRC anyway.


Such is life.

If you read the IRC book - they clearly state that any IRC competition should have multiple course types in it to make any series fair to all boats - Short tacking races, W/L, long legs, smooth waters etc so everyone gets a fair go.
Doesn't happen all the time - but it's there in print.
But in an offshore that's not possible.

But if the fleet is big enough you can have 7 x IRC divisions such as at cowes week.

I still think the 34 footer Pendragon - beating an optimised well sailed Farr 43 footer Wild Rose over the line - had an absolute cracker of race IRC aside

Celestial did well - but they didn't have anyone with a higher handicap behind them other than Duende - which says to me they had an as expected result.

Illusion - another 34 footer - is probably a better performer than Celestial when you look at their rating and where they are in the fleet.

[mh111]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

Thats a big call. Can you explain why you think Loki sailed worse than Pendragon or Celestial? I do not understand the justification for the comment. Where did Loki go the wrong way. What sail change did Loki stuff up? What equipment did Loki break? At what point did Loki back off during the night that makes you say that they did not deserve to win.

There is no doubt that Pendragon performed better than other similar sized boats, but who is to say that they performed better than Loki.

Part of offshore racing is prepare your boat well, sail well and then get the weather that suits your size boat, if you want to win overall. It is part of the game. In this race, it was always (from at least a week out anyway) going to be a big boat race. Loki seems to be a well prepared and well sailed boat that found it's ideal conditons in this race.

I thought Loki sailed an supurb race and was a well deserved winner.

sorry, i guess it is a bit complicated isn't it

it's about performing better than the boat would normally do and for my money loki didn't do that. don't get me wrong, of course it's a great boat, and of course the crew sailed it well...but for me, the guys on pendragon performed much further above expectations than did Loki (eg if Loki beat WO11 over the line, then i'd say Loki sailed extra well

all this does is highlight the stupidity of trying to name an overall winner. how do you quantify the level of performance of Loki and measure this against the level of performance of Pendragon? not with IRC that's for sure

as you say, it was always going to be a big boat race...so a big boat that peforms at 105% of potential is nominated 'overall winner' while a little boat that performs at 125% of potential isn't. yet who has sailed better ? obviously the little boat

once agian : the problem is that the rule was never intended to enable fair competition between the Lokis of this world with the Pendragons of a different world. so using IRC to declare an overall winner is an insult to our intelligence, and to the participants

hope this has made my opinion clearer

cheers,

[DickDastardly]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

Thats a big call. Can you explain why you think Loki sailed worse than Pendragon or Celestial? I do not understand the justification for the comment. Where did Loki go the wrong way. What sail change did Loki stuff up? What equipment did Loki break? At what point did Loki back off during the night that makes you say that they did not deserve to win.

There is no doubt that Pendragon performed better than other similar sized boats, but who is to say that they performed better than Loki.

Part of offshore racing is prepare your boat well, sail well and then get the weather that suits your size boat, if you want to win overall. It is part of the game. In this race, it was always (from at least a week out anyway) going to be a big boat race. Loki seems to be a well prepared and well sailed boat that found it's ideal conditons in this race.

I thought Loki sailed an supurb race and was a well deserved winner.

sorry, i guess it is a bit complicated isn't it

it's about performing better than the boat would normally do and for my money loki didn't do that. don't get me wrong, of course it's a great boat, and of course the crew sailed it well...but for me, the guys on pendragon performed much further above expectations than did Loki (eg if Loki beat WO11 over the line, then i'd say Loki sailed extra well

all this does is highlight the stupidity of trying to name an overall winner. how do you quantify the level of performance of Loki and measure this against the level of performance of Pendragon? not with IRC that's for sure

as you say, it was always going to be a big boat race...so a big boat that peforms at 105% of potential is nominated 'overall winner' while a little boat that performs at 125% of potential isn't. yet who has sailed better ? obviously the little boat

once agian : the problem is that the rule was never intended to enable fair competition between the Lokis of this world with the Pendragons of a different world. so using IRC to declare an overall winner is an insult to our intelligence, and to the participants

hope this has made my opinion clearer

cheers,

So MH111 which system would YOU use to declare an overall winner?

[huddo]

you wouldn't

[HILLY]

Why not make the boat that wins its division by the greatest margin, declared overall winner?
That way all divisional winners sail against like boats in similar weather, for similar duration.
The boat who smashes his division, has been best boat in that race.

[Dark Cloud]

Why not make the boat that wins its division by the greatest margin, declared overall winner?
That way all divisional winners sail against like boats in similar weather, for similar duration.
The boat who smashes his division, has been best boat in that race.

That has merit hilly. Also concur with mh111

[irc-racer]

Pendragon is having a cracker of race - for a 34 footer they've got lots of bigger boats behind them on IRC

+1

Stand out performance considering the nature of the race...

Mex

that pendragon is truly amazing. been a thorn in the side of many more 'racey' boats for years

as the man use to say 'why is it so ?' wonder what makes the stewart 34 such an unbelievable performer, and why aren't there more of them ?

now off on a complete tangent : is there anybody else that thinks naming an 'overall' IRC winner is utter bullshit ? for my money the best performers of the race was not Loki - it was either "Pendragon" or "Celestial"

cheers,

Thats a big call. Can you explain why you think Loki sailed worse than Pendragon or Celestial? I do not understand the justification for the comment. Where did Loki go the wrong way. What sail change did Loki stuff up? What equipment did Loki break? At what point did Loki back off during the night that makes you say that they did not deserve to win.

There is no doubt that Pendragon performed better than other similar sized boats, but who is to say that they performed better than Loki.

Part of offshore racing is prepare your boat well, sail well and then get the weather that suits your size boat, if you want to win overall. It is part of the game. In this race, it was always (from at least a week out anyway) going to be a big boat race. Loki seems to be a well prepared and well sailed boat that found it's ideal conditons in this race.

I thought Loki sailed an supurb race and was a well deserved winner.

sorry, i guess it is a bit complicated isn't it

it's about performing better than the boat would normally do and for my money loki didn't do that. don't get me wrong, of course it's a great boat, and of course the crew sailed it well...but for me, the guys on pendragon performed much further above expectations than did Loki (eg if Loki beat WO11 over the line, then i'd say Loki sailed extra well

all this does is highlight the stupidity of trying to name an overall winner. how do you quantify the level of performance of Loki and measure this against the level of performance of Pendragon? not with IRC that's for sure

as you say, it was always going to be a big boat race...so a big boat that peforms at 105% of potential is nominated 'overall winner' while a little boat that performs at 125% of potential isn't. yet who has sailed better ? obviously the little boat

once agian : the problem is that the rule was never intended to enable fair competition between the Lokis of this world with the Pendragons of a different world. so using IRC to declare an overall winner is an insult to our intelligence, and to the participants

hope this has made my opinion clearer

cheers,

Hmmm you have obviously never been on a boat like Loki before. It's understandable it's so complicated for you comprehend how well sailed Loki was. Imagine if the race started out light and finished windy and the mighty Pendragon won overall - I can hear you already applauding IRC and how well it rates boats! It's actually pretty simple mate... And talk to most boat owners, winning overall in an offshore race is all that matters. Winning your division is just a benchmark. It's up to Huey if it's a big boat race or little boat race or mid size boat race. Or maybe that's what you can't get? Even just the one fact that Loki was able to send it at full rabbit all night Saturday night is an extraordinary feat in human fear aversion and skill in itself that the mighty Pendragon didn't even come close to having to endure. You should try it sometime mate, stand at the helm in 30kts on a 'Loki' at full noise with the responsibility and safety of the whole boat and crew in just your hands in complete dark and tell me what you think after that ...........

[duncan (the other one)]

Hmmm you have obviously never been on a boat like Loki before. It's understandable it's so complicated for you comprehend how well sailed Loki was. Imagine if the race started out light and finished windy and the might Pendragon won overall - I can hear you already applauding IRC and how well it rates boats! It's actually pretty simple mate... And talk to most boat owners, winning overall in an offshore race is all that matters. Winning your division is just a benchmark. It's up to Huey if it's a big boat race or little boat race or mid size boat race. Or maybe that's what you can't get? Even just the one fact that Loki was able to send it at full rabbit all night Saturday night is an extraordinary feat in human fear aversion and skill in itself that the mighty Pendragon didn't even come close to having to endure. You should try it sometime mate, stand at the helm in 30kts on a 'Loki' at full noise with the responsibility and safety of the whole boat and crew in just your hands in complete dark and tell me what you think after that ...........

I thought it was about time for more beer and popcorn.

[Mexican]

sorry, i guess it is a bit complicated isn't it

it's about performing better than the boat would normally do and for my money loki didn't do that. don't get me wrong, of course it's a great boat, and of course the crew sailed it well...but for me, the guys on pendragon performed much further above expectations than did Loki (eg if Loki beat WO11 over the line, then i'd say Loki sailed extra well

all this does is highlight the stupidity of trying to name an overall winner. how do you quantify the level of performance of Loki and measure this against the level of performance of Pendragon? not with IRC that's for sure

as you say, it was always going to be a big boat race...so a big boat that peforms at 105% of potential is nominated 'overall winner' while a little boat that performs at 125% of potential isn't. yet who has sailed better ? obviously the little boat

once agian : the problem is that the rule was never intended to enable fair competition between the Lokis of this world with the Pendragons of a different world. so using IRC to declare an overall winner is an insult to our intelligence, and to the participants

hope this has made my opinion clearer

cheers,

Oh dear, I do believe you've just described performance handicap.

Woe is me...

Mex

[Left Hook]

Why not make the boat that wins its division by the greatest margin, declared overall winner?
That way all divisional winners sail against like boats in similar weather, for similar duration.
The boat who smashes his division, has been best boat in that race.

The problem is that when someone shows up with a supermaxi and gets put in a division of smaller boats then you run into the same problems.

[bfp]

Why not make the boat that wins its division by the greatest margin, declared overall winner?
That way all divisional winners sail against like boats in similar weather, for similar duration.
The boat who smashes his division, has been best boat in that race.

Because if that division is the weakest division (ie. Pendragon's in this race) then the winner your system would declare may not be the "best sailed" boat.

And if no overall winner is declared and only divisional winners are declared, what is the very first thing everyone would do - look and see who really won the race. ie who has the fastest corrected time. I know I would.

And, is there really anything wrong with the current system? Everyone knows where they stand before the start, during the race and when you finish. Just accept that some days one boat will be favoured and another day a different boat will be favoured.

If your boat can't win on IRC, and that is what you really want to do, then get a different boat and quit complaining about it.

[LDH]

Because if that division is the weakest division (ie. Pendragon's in this race) then the winner your system would declare may not be the "best sailed" boat.

I take great exception to this. What is it that you are basing this comment on that pendragons div was the weakest in this race? Div 4 had 4 boats in the top 16 on irc. Div 3 had none.

[BooBoo]

it's about performing better than the boat would normally do and for my money loki didn't do that. don't get me wrong, of course it's a great boat, and of course the crew sailed it well...but for me, the guys on pendragon performed much further above expectations than did Loki (eg if Loki beat WO11 over the line, then i'd say Loki sailed extra well

hope this has made my opinion clearer

cheers,

NO, NO and NO. Its NOT about a boat performing better than it normally would.

IRC is measurement based, not performance based.

The whole problem with sailing in NZ at the moment is that there is no measurment system in place, IRC didnt work out as our fleet is too diverse and every boat is turboed to the max with prods, massive squaretops, deeper keels ect. Everything that IRC hates, especially on boats that actually dont go that fast (it works if you boat can sail faster than its rating).
So now you have identical boats with seriously different PHRF handicaps. The guy who has raced with old sails and a dirty bottom all year just has to clean his bottom (like the rest of the fleet has for every race...) and he will win the race, regatta or series on PHRF. the well sailed boats have much less chance of winning.
Believe me you DONT want to have aussie yachting go down that path. It promotes poorly prepared and badly sailed boats as they have just as much chance of winning, so why bother spending money or doing any more work than needed to get to the start line?

IRC- the best setup, prepared, optimised and well sailed boat wins.
PHRF and general handicap- the guy who has the bullshit lowest handicap cos hes milked it all season wins. The best sailed boat generally comes last.

Performance based handicaps are just there to share the prizes around and that's about it.

[bfp]

Because if that division is the weakest division (ie. Pendragon's in this race) then the winner your system would declare may not be the "best sailed" boat.

I take great exception to this. What is it that you are basing this comment on that pendragons div was the weakest in this race? Div 4 had 4 boats in the top 16 on irc. Div 3 had none.

Sorry - no offense intended. I am ignorant in regard to how well the smaller boats raced and should not have made that comment.

When I was looking at the weather forecasts, it always seemed that the race was going to favour the 60's, then the 50's then the 30's then the 40's. I guess it sort of worked out that way.
Once again though, the number of boats from a division that placed in the overall results is not totally a representation of how well the boats were prepared or sailed.
To some extent, that is a weather determined result.

[LDH]

Because if that division is the weakest division (ie. Pendragon's in this race) then the winner your system would declare may not be the "best sailed" boat.

I take great exception to this. What is it that you are basing this comment on that pendragons div was the weakest in this race? Div 4 had 4 boats in the top 16 on irc. Div 3 had none.

Sorry - no offense intended. I am ignorant in regard to how well the smaller boats raced and should not have made that comment.

When I was looking at the weather forecasts, it always seemed that the race was going to favour the 60's, then the 50's then the 30's then the 40's. I guess it sort of worked out that way.
Once again though, the number of boats from a division that placed in the overall results is not totally a representation of how well the boats were prepared or sailed.
To some extent, that is a weather determined result.

Fair enough.

I do take your point that awarding a winner based on greatest advance made on that division would produce an unreasonable result if the div were particularly weak (albeit that not being an issue in this particular race, with boats in each division that are very well sailed).

[MR.CLEAN]

BooBoo - what do you think about HPR's chances of sticking, down in the land of the long white sheep?

[Jason AUS]

IRC is measurement based, not performance based.

The whole problem with sailing in NZ at the moment is that there is no measurment system in place, IRC didnt work out as our fleet is too diverse and every boat is turboed to the max with prods, massive squaretops, deeper keels ect. Everything that IRC hates, especially on boats that actually dont go that fast (it works if you boat can sail faster than its rating).

So where is the problem? IRC hates you all equally then....

For the record, we've just IRC re-rated our Gen I TP52 to correct a few issues - our previous certificate claimed we had a hollow steel keel, hydraulic forestay etc. (but did agree that we have a pin head main). We now have a slightly lower handicap, and accept that while we don't go as quickly through the water as the other TP's who run square top mainsails and get a new sail for each long race we still have to outsail ourselves to get a result.

And yes, we do have days when we can't get out of our own way. Who doesn't? But on some days, we can still scare the p*ss out of the Gen IV guys by breathing down their necks. As long as you have fun doing it.

[smc]

Good fun race.

Who stole the clock from the bar?

[BooBoo]

BooBoo - what do you think about HPR's chances of sticking, down in the land of the long white sheep?

I sure hope it does Clean.
I havent had a good detailed look into it or how its going to fit in but I hope it might encourage some faster boats.

[Mexican]

Good fun race.

Who stole the clock from the bar?

I've engaged Sergeant Schultz as my PR agent.

Mex

[BooBoo]

Here is a bit of video footage from the first afternoon, this was before it got windy.
The extreme stuff for us was between about midnight and 4am.


Also a photos of us just after the heads.

Attached Files

•  af_asgcyr12_03_600x464.jpg   75.16K   40 downloads

[Ocean View]

Here is a bit of video footage from the first afternoon, this was before it got windy.

Nice
Great sailing weather
Everyone to the back of the bus - We're going surfing

[smc]

We got the best value for money for the race entry...

[BooBoo]

That looks pleasant but exceedingly slow and painfull......
Nice start by the way, right on the line.

[Jason AUS]

Yeah, props to you blokes - I'll bet the words "freeze dried food" did not feature in ANY of your pre race discussions?

Lucky bastards...

[LDH]

Yeah, props to you blokes - I'll bet the words "freeze dried food" did not feature in ANY of your pre race discussions?

Lucky bastards...

But a tweo kilo strung salami might have!

[Jason AUS]

Yeah, props to you blokes - I'll bet the words "freeze dried food" did not feature in ANY of your pre race discussions?

Lucky bastards...

But a tweo kilo strung salami might have!

I did the math on that - the 2kg salami made us 0.00000029 knots slower.

[GybeSet®]

Good fun race.

Who stole the clock from the bar?

I've engaged Sergeant Schultz as my PR agent.

Mex

"Let's face it – there's no denying the club's clock has bundied off in mysterious circumstances," Southport Yacht Club's Commodore, Ian Hall, chimed in when asked about the disappearance, "and needless to say, the members are ticked off.

"We don't really care who has got their hands on the club clock, but we'd just like to have hour clock back sometime soon – and not looking second hand."

courtesy mysailing.com

[Dave V NZ]

I know its well late now but here is a little bit of action from on board the Celestial.

As said before this was before the real breeze overnight.

http://youtu.be/zRJPZIxKJqk

[Left Hook]

I know its well late now but here is a little bit of action from on board the Celestial.

As said before this was before the real breeze overnight.

Blocked in the US due to music violations.

[Dave V NZ]

Yeah youtube is angry with me...And the rest of the world.. Try the one without music.

[Left Hook]

All of these videos are awesome...