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What would make the perfect AC boat?


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#1 greenteamfan

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 11:32 PM

I recently finished “Born to win” by John Bertrand and have just watched the videos of the 12s sailing off Fremantle and I got to thinking. In the book and on the video they talk about mammoth down speed tacking duels. 30 and 40 tacks up a single beat etc etc. I was a teenager when they raced in 86 – 87 and the AC got very little or no TV coverage, so excuse me if I am way off the mark. More recently, in the ACC boats I simply don’t recall any / many gloves off match racing duels (open to correction though).



In the last few years the FIA have changed the rules of F1 so much that they have forced the cars to be evenly matched – hence F1 is watchable again.



How could the AC be manipulated to make it really interesting for sailors to watch. Ok the big cats WILL be spectacular and I can’t wait to see them go, but lets face it, they won’t be doing 30 tacks up a beat! What would make the best boat / race course configuration to make the cup fun to watch?



I am thinking mono-hulls about 60 – 65 feet long (keep costs down – make them light like STP 65s on steroids).

Standard foils (+ maybe mast) again to keep costs way down and to level the playing field.

Most Importantly - Nationality rules.

Sail on a fairly short windward Leeward course with the start line half way up that is also a gate that must be sailed through both upwind and downwind.



IMHO this would give manufactured, but even full on match racing and if the costs are right the chance of a load of teams too. I recon 3 or 4 from USA, 3 or 4 from Europe, 2 from NZ, 2 from Australia, 2 or 3 from Asia (Korea, China, Japan) 1 or 2 from Russia. Am I delusional?!



P.S. Apologies if this has already been discussed.



#2 ~Stingray~

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Posted 14 June 2012 - 11:57 PM

Been discussed many times... almost ad nauseum, especially nationality rules for the hired guns.

But on number of tacks, both up and down:

The course boundaries in AC34 will mean that, by Grant Dalton's estimates, there will be between 40 and 60 tacks and gibes in each race, in far-overpowered and under-manned boats. If you add in the very likely possibility of moves to cover your trailing boat's attempts to break free, that number could (gasp for air) be even higher.

This will be far more intense than the 12's off Freo. The difference, and yes it does matter for how different, is that the higher intensity will also be for much shorter.

To me it's a little like Rugby 7's versus the traditional; or some better modern-game-evolution analogy.

I have 'grown' to appreciate the slowness of American Baseball, the rhythm and duration of the games, the ebb and flow. But very seldom take that many hours to actually watch one. If they began tied at the top of the ninth, I might.

#3 maxmini

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 12:43 AM

I recently finished “Born to win” by John Bertrand and have just watched the videos of the 12s sailing off Fremantle and I got to thinking. In the book and on the video they talk about mammoth down speed tacking duels. 30 and 40 tacks up a single beat etc etc. I was a teenager when they raced in 86 – 87 and the AC got very little or no TV coverage, so excuse me if I am way off the mark. More recently, in the ACC boats I simply don’t recall any / many gloves off match racing duels (open to correction though).



In the last few years the FIA have changed the rules of F1 so much that they have forced the cars to be evenly matched – hence F1 is watchable again.



How could the AC be manipulated to make it really interesting for sailors to watch. Ok the big cats WILL be spectacular and I can’t wait to see them go, but lets face it, they won’t be doing 30 tacks up a beat! What would make the best boat / race course configuration to make the cup fun to watch?



I am thinking mono-hulls about 60 – 65 feet long (keep costs down – make them light like STP 65s on steroids).

Standard foils (+ maybe mast) again to keep costs way down and to level the playing field.

Most Importantly - Nationality rules.

Sail on a fairly short windward Leeward course with the start line half way up that is also a gate that must be sailed through both upwind and downwind.



IMHO this would give manufactured, but even full on match racing and if the costs are right the chance of a load of teams too. I recon 3 or 4 from USA, 3 or 4 from Europe, 2 from NZ, 2 from Australia, 2 or 3 from Asia (Korea, China, Japan) 1 or 2 from Russia. Am I delusional?!



P.S. Apologies if this has already been discussed.



I have the same book and its a good one . The points you pick up are valid and I think the STP 65 style is where it will end up at. The nationality thing is tough as even when there was one guys like Paul Cayard etc. were able to work around it . Lets just get through this cycle and see what shakes out. With the way the economy is going AC34 will be the biggest budget AC we will all see for a long time . If there is a AC 35 it will look quite a bit different than what we are seeing at present.

#4 kiwi_jon

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 05:35 AM

Been discussed many times... almost ad nauseum, especially nationality rules for the hired guns.

But on number of tacks, both up and down:

The course boundaries in AC34 will mean that, by Grant Dalton's estimates, there will be between 40 and 60 tacks and gibes in each race, in far-overpowered and under-manned boats. If you add in the very likely possibility of moves to cover your trailing boat's attempts to break free, that number could (gasp for air) be even higher.

This will be far more intense than the 12's off Freo. The difference, and yes it does matter for how different, is that the higher intensity will also be for much shorter.

To me it's a little like Rugby 7's versus the traditional; or some better modern-game-evolution analogy.

I have 'grown' to appreciate the slowness of American Baseball, the rhythm and duration of the games, the ebb and flow. But very seldom take that many hours to actually watch one. If they began tied at the top of the ninth, I might.


Greenteamfan,

Take no notice of Spinray. He doesn't like it when people post anything negative about his precious AC34.

I agree that the AC72's will be spectacular on the water fleet racing but in a match racing enviroment? Nah.

There certainly won't be any of the classic tacking duels that we have seen in the past. The tacking angles of cat's is ugly and the speed of the tacks is slow. The AC45's tack at 4-5 knots, even in a blow compared to say an IACC class yacht that could tack on a dime and go into a tack at 9-10 knots and come out at the same speed.

Earlier in the ACWS we saw a couple of lee bow tacks but because the tacks were so slow the weather boat just sailed over the top. We saw also a couple of dial-downs which were abject failures. Since then the match racing might as well held on a single leg sprint course.

Stingray quotes Dalts 30 - 40 tacks and gybes in a race but when you translate that down to legs it is 4 tacks or gybes per leg for a 9 leg race. That is to be expected for the narrow courses they are going to set, so nothing spectacular there.

The IACC class boats, while magnificent boats and the ultimate match racer, have certainly seen their day. I agree that a mono in the 65 ft range, TP52 on steroids, would attract more challengers and therefore more interest.

I agree with Maxmini that AC35 will look nothing like AC34, even if, that's a big if, GGYC/Oracle manage to defend the Cup. I doubt that AC35 would be held in San Francisco. Pier 30/32 will be being built on for the Warriors stadium, Pier 27/29 will be the new cruise terminal and once the final AC34 economic figures are in and San Francisco find that the economic returns/tourist figures were nothing like those promised then I doubt that they would want to be host city again.

Larry/Russell have already admitted that the AC72 was an expensive mistake so we won't see those again. Thats a lot of design costs for a one off boat/event.

#5 SW Sailor

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 05:42 AM


Been discussed many times... almost ad nauseum, especially nationality rules for the hired guns.

But on number of tacks, both up and down:

The course boundaries in AC34 will mean that, by Grant Dalton's estimates, there will be between 40 and 60 tacks and gibes in each race, in far-overpowered and under-manned boats. If you add in the very likely possibility of moves to cover your trailing boat's attempts to break free, that number could (gasp for air) be even higher.

This will be far more intense than the 12's off Freo. The difference, and yes it does matter for how different, is that the higher intensity will also be for much shorter.

To me it's a little like Rugby 7's versus the traditional; or some better modern-game-evolution analogy.

I have 'grown' to appreciate the slowness of American Baseball, the rhythm and duration of the games, the ebb and flow. But very seldom take that many hours to actually watch one. If they began tied at the top of the ninth, I might.


Greenteamfan,

Take no notice of Spinray. He doesn't like it when people post anything negative about his precious AC34.

I agree that the AC72's will be spectacular on the water fleet racing but in a match racing enviroment? Nah.

There certainly won't be any of the classic tacking duels that we have seen in the past. The tacking angles of cat's is ugly and the speed of the tacks is slow. The AC45's tack at 4-5 knots, even in a blow compared to say an IACC class yacht that could tack on a dime and go into a tack at 9-10 knots and come out at the same speed.

Earlier in the ACWS we saw a couple of lee bow tacks but because the tacks were so slow the weather boat just sailed over the top. We saw also a couple of dial-downs which were abject failures. Since then the match racing might as well held on a single leg sprint course.

Stingray quotes Dalts 30 - 40 tacks and gybes in a race but when you translate that down to legs it is 4 tacks or gybes per leg for a 9 leg race. That is to be expected for the narrow courses they are going to set, so nothing spectacular there.

The IACC class boats, while magnificent boats and the ultimate match racer, have certainly seen their day. I agree that a mono in the 65 ft range, TP52 on steroids, would attract more challengers and therefore more interest.

I agree with Maxmini that AC35 will look nothing like AC34, even if, that's a big if, GGYC/Oracle manage to defend the Cup. I doubt that AC35 would be held in San Francisco. Pier 30/32 will be being built on for the Warriors stadium, Pier 27/29 will be the new cruise terminal and once the final AC34 economic figures are in and San Francisco find that the economic returns/tourist figures were nothing like those promised then I doubt that they would want to be host city again.

Larry/Russell have already admitted that the AC72 was an expensive mistake so we won't see those again. Thats a lot of design costs for a one off boat/event.


Very doubtful on several accounts - worth saving this post for later Posted Image.

#6 kiwi_jon

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 05:52 AM

^^^^

What will be very doubtful?

That AC34 will be spectacular

That Oracle will defend the Cup

That AC34 will be the financial success that SF have been promised

That AC35 will remain in SF if Oracle defend the Cup.

#7 JMOD

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 10:27 AM

I recently finished "Born to win" by John Bertrand and have just watched the videos of the 12s sailing off Fremantle and I got to thinking. In the book and on the video they talk about mammoth down speed tacking duels. 30 and 40 tacks up a single beat etc etc. I was a teenager when they raced in 86 – 87 and the AC got very little or no TV coverage, so excuse me if I am way off the mark. More recently, in the ACC boats I simply don't recall any / many gloves off match racing duels (open to correction though).



In the last few years the FIA have changed the rules of F1 so much that they have forced the cars to be evenly matched – hence F1 is watchable again.



How could the AC be manipulated to make it really interesting for sailors to watch. Ok the big cats WILL be spectacular and I can't wait to see them go, but lets face it, they won't be doing 30 tacks up a beat! What would make the best boat / race course configuration to make the cup fun to watch?



I am thinking mono-hulls about 60 – 65 feet long (keep costs down – make them light like STP 65s on steroids).

Standard foils (+ maybe mast) again to keep costs way down and to level the playing field.

Most Importantly - Nationality rules.

Sail on a fairly short windward Leeward course with the start line half way up that is also a gate that must be sailed through both upwind and downwind.



IMHO this would give manufactured, but even full on match racing and if the costs are right the chance of a load of teams too. I recon 3 or 4 from USA, 3 or 4 from Europe, 2 from NZ, 2 from Australia, 2 or 3 from Asia (Korea, China, Japan) 1 or 2 from Russia. Am I delusional?! yes



P.S. Apologies if this has already been discussed.



AC is not about the sailors, it's about who has the deepest pockets and is being challenged to show how deep they really are. it is therefore never about keeping cost down. that's a illusion for people with shallow pockets

#8 nav

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 02:05 PM

I recently finished "Born to win" by John Bertrand and have just watched the videos of the 12s sailing off Fremantle and I got to thinking. In the book and on the video they talk about mammoth down speed tacking duels. 30 and 40 tacks up a single beat etc etc. I was a teenager when they raced in 86 – 87 and the AC got very little or no TV coverage, so excuse me if I am way off the mark. More recently, in the ACC boats I simply don't recall any / many gloves off match racing duels (open to correction though).



In the last few years the FIA have changed the rules of F1 so much that they have forced the cars to be evenly matched – hence F1 is watchable again.



How could the AC be manipulated to make it really interesting for sailors to watch. Ok the big cats WILL be spectacular and I can't wait to see them go, but lets face it, they won't be doing 30 tacks up a beat! What would make the best boat / race course configuration to make the cup fun to watch?



I am thinking mono-hulls about 60 – 65 feet long (keep costs down – make them light like STP 65s on steroids).

Standard foils (+ maybe mast) again to keep costs way down and to level the playing field.

Most Importantly - Nationality rules.

Sail on a fairly short windward Leeward course with the start line half way up that is also a gate that must be sailed through both upwind and downwind.



IMHO this would give manufactured, but even full on match racing and if the costs are right the chance of a load of teams too. I recon 3 or 4 from USA, 3 or 4 from Europe, 2 from NZ, 2 from Australia, 2 or 3 from Asia (Korea, China, Japan) 1 or 2 from Russia. Am I delusional?!



P.S. Apologies if this has already been discussed.



1/ Not only has this been widely discussed here - but what you see presented for AC34 is the result of the same discussion that took place long ago within OR. It ain't what it was but they at least hope it will be better (than the races you have apparently only read about!) in many respects. Why do you think the changes were promoted??

2/ Match racing is one on one racing within a set of rules, (not necessarily 12m having tacking duels). It's up to the sailors to develop winning tactics according to the type of boat they are match racing in. I for one would like to see this aspect given a bit more attention by the sailors in the AC45s and in the 72s to come. Maybe when the match racing really starts in earnest, some (those with slower boats?) will figure out how to fight dirty! Posted Image



#9 Presuming Ed

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:19 PM

Maybe when the match racing really starts in earnest, some (those with slower boats?) will figure out how to fight dirty! Posted Image

Match racing is to a significant degree a game of control. Controlling the opposition is only possible if you can stay close. If, in fast boat, a small percentage difference in speeds results in large separations on the water, it will be that much harder for the slower boat to gain any degree of control over the faster boat.

#10 maxmini

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 04:25 PM

Maybe when the match racing really starts in earnest, some (those with slower boats?) will figure out how to fight dirty! Posted Image

Match racing is to a significant degree a game of control. Controlling the opposition is only possible if you can stay close. If, in fast boat, a small percentage difference in speeds results in large separations on the water, it will be that much harder for the slower boat to gain any degree of control over the faster boat.


Or to put it another way , it's hard to fight dirty if you can't catch up . Speed kills :o

#11 nav

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 08:05 PM


Maybe when the match racing really starts in earnest, some (those with slower boats?) will figure out how to fight dirty! Posted Image

Match racing is to a significant degree a game of control. Controlling the opposition is only possible if you can stay close. If, in fast boat, a small percentage difference in speeds results in large separations on the water, it will be that much harder for the slower boat to gain any degree of control over the faster boat.


Or to put it another way , it's hard to fight dirty if you can't catch up . Speed kills :o



Catch up? Every second match you start with an advantage, right?

In a speed trial the slower boat loses obviously, but surely in a match you have at least at two possibilities to dominate by using superior tactics even if in a slower boat. Gain control of the other boat to maintain a winning position and/or get penalties against the other boat to negate their speed advantage. Not easy of course but in theory the rules should make this a possibility. Time will tell whether the penalties have been set at an appropriate level to make the game interesting.




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