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Sheets and guys, why no knots?


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#101 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 07:23 PM

Bad Andy,

Sadly, there isn't an option of running dead down wind when you're racing on a river. You'll run aground. The pic you were looking at was from this year's Delta Ditch Run and the river is quite narrow at times and requires extended periods of beam reaching. If you loose both the sheet and guy in those conditions, you'll just have to sail along until the river changes course or send a crewman to the masthead to get a grip on the halyard.


John Drake,

A lot of us who crew on OPBs carry a knife. The reason is pretty simple. Real world example, 1D48 laying on its side for 23 minutes in the Windjammer's Race from San Francisco to Santa Cruz with the mainsail in the water until the bowman finally takes matters into his own hands and cuts the halyard on the chute. Asym tack line was against the knot, winch under water and no way to wind it in with the deck vertical. Asym sheet was about 2' underwater on the leeward side in 50 deg water and 12 foot swells, no one was going down there to untie it. Halyard had a knot in it. Finally the bowman cut the halyard. That owner thanked the bowman a lot and has never tied a knot in a spin sheet or halyard again.

Claiming that other people "panic" is a little lame when you weren't there. But, I guess some sailors never have these sorts of problems, could be the conditions you sail in. We got to watch it from another boat standing by to see if these boys came back up again. Thankfully they did once they cut the halyard.

BV

#102 No.6

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 07:36 PM

Beau, I carry a knife at all times. I just prefer to see that as an absolute final option reserved for situations like cutting a life raft tether or cutting the webbing on mainsail slugs when the rig is over the side. Anyhow best not to get laid out in the first place. In your example you actually address what happens when letting things just run. From whta I understand you to be saying (and forgive me if I have this wrong) is that someone let the tack line run essentially setting a sea anchor. The result being that there was the boat did not spin up and thus right herself.

BTW, I am not advocating tying knots in sheets and guys as per se. I simply stated if you were inclined to do so, that a slippery eight with a long tail was preferable to a regular figure eight, stop or blood knot.

#103 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 07:41 PM

John Drake,

OK, we agree, better not to get on your side. But, hey, it happens. Yes, the crew shouldn't be let the tack line out. The guy who did was "really sorry" at the bar that night. But, once that lightly ballasted boat was on her side with water on top of the mainsail in big seas, she wasn't coming up any time soon. Glad you carry a knife, and I hope you never have to use it. I've only had to cut one spin sheet, and there was no doubt that it was the result of a screw up. Why in the world would anyone do so otherwise? But when you need one, I've found you really need one.

BV

#104 No.6

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 07:52 PM

So would you say the poor fellow on the tack line got a little flustered and the result was as stated?

#105 mh111

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Posted 15 June 2012 - 11:49 PM




If the kite is small enough that you can just grab a sheet and pull it in, then knots are fine. I stick knots into our sheets - it's about a 40 sq m kite/430 square feet. Much bigger than that and no knots. Knot is about 1' from the end of the line so there's an end to pull.

At a guess, the size limit is about where the limit for end to end gybing with single sheets is.


We end to end 110m2 kites...Sheets and braces are just overkill for anything below that, unless it is an IOR roll machine..

beg to differ

kites on my last off-shore boat (36') were 75 - 110m2 (hey why do we talk length in feet and area in m2 ?) and we always found lazy sheet / brace set-up & dip pole quicker / less trouble regardless whether doing W/L or off-shore.

previous boat had kites at about 75m2 and we'd end-for-end, but with lazy sheet / brace. not always trouble free :lol:

imho change over is more like 50-60m2

of course, this depends on weather conditions too

cheers,



Beg to differ. We've been end-for-ending a 140 sq. m. kite for years. (17' pole on a 14' foretriangle is not going to dip.) Sheets only below 12 knots. Sheets and guys above 12. Sheets, guys and twings above 20. Max true wind for jibing is around 30-32 depending on lump.

End for end is quicker to set up, tactically. No weight on the bow. Nice clean jibes with kite full are all about the driver anyway.

And NO KNOTS in anything not coming out of the mast.

end-for-end jibing 140m2 kite in 30kts...hmmmm...i take my hat off to you sir. too ballsy for me

cheers,

#106 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 02:58 AM

John,
We arrived after the masthead was already in the water. No idea if it happened because someone was flustered or someone just didn't know what they were doing. Both are certainly possible. Recovering was ugly!
BV

#107 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 03:06 AM



...
I can see the argument to not have knots in the sheets. But I can not imagine a situation where it is wise to let the guy run.


how about a chinese?


Rather release the foreguy/downhaul. You have to be quick about it but getting the pole to sky opens the top (thus dumping air) of what was formally the luff and keeps the pole out of the water. If you are rolling into a chinese, trim on hard to try and rotate the shoulders to get the boat back on her feet. If unsuccessful, keep trimming sheet so the sail collapses from what used to be the leeward side. Nothing worse than getting pinned chinese.


well yes.

But none of those things worked, or a wave spun you around... and you're all clinging to a vertical deck; the boat is pinned with the pole wherever the fuck it is under the water below the rig (now horizontal). How do you get the kite back and the boat under control other than by blowing the old brace (guy) and pulling in the now windward sheet?

And who's going down to BMAX (under water, don't forget) to undo the clusterfuck knot that some thoughtful crew put in the brace?

add double plus ungood for boats with runners.

#108 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 03:14 AM

for example... sheet seems to have gone.. can't really do SFA about that kite till the boat comes up.

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#109 2XD

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 04:11 AM

if the sheet and the halyard are gone then it will come back, just a waiting game. if you let the brace go now you are asking for trouble.

#110 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 04:17 AM

if the sheet and the halyard are gone then it will come back, just a waiting game. if you let the brace go now you are asking for trouble.


obviously you don't want to let all three go.

The problem with the situation they're is that when she pops up and starts to move, only the brace is holding the (was kite, now) parachute drogue... and they'd better get that out of the beak of the pole quick smart.

I'm saying at the point of 'oh fuck, we've chinesed'.. leave the sheet on and blow the brace is a valid solution. Then you can retrieve around the forestay on the high side and keep the shrimping for another day.

#111 tuf-luf

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 05:08 AM




I guess the choice will be governed by who's paying the bills.


What do you mean?

No knots results in lost lines which I agree might mean $500 and I've seen that much go overboard, because the snap shackles shook loose from the kite. Lines sink really fast.

OTOH, I've seen kites suffering premature ejaculation, where the whole kite pops out before the rounding and dumps under the keel, and there's fu*cking ripfest where the owner pays 1400 bucks and the kite is never the same. When the kite sheets and guys don't have knots, it all streams behind the boat, is recovered (eventually) and rippage is minimized.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sorta buying in to the genoa sheets being knotted, as it's attached to the forestay (? usually) so can't go under the boat.


$1400 for a kite?!

In what decade what that made? Or should I ask...what dinghy was that made for?


TL - mine was even less than that mate - Rolly T's damn finest - in this decade & sexy as ..... (bit smaller than yours though) ....

It can be done - welcome to my tightwad world ;-)

PS - No knots in kite sheets & braces - Genny yep - wouldn't have it any other way - and keep them all flaked - the next person that coils a kite halyard down the hole gets a slap


I need to stop hanging around blokes that work for companies with initials "NS".

#112 my nuts

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 05:15 AM

So would you say the poor fellow on the tack line got a little flustered and the result was as stated?

you, sir, are coming off as a bit of a douche. while I would like to sail in the world where every boat only allows people with 30+ years of experience , cat-like reflexes, and telepathic interconnection, I, and many other people don't. we're always training someone new, and heavy-weather experience counts more than a calm training. guess what, people panic. some people even make mistakes. when that happens we gods of the bow are often called upon to fix things. bitching at whoever made the mistake doesn't get the boat back upright. save it for the bar. or better yet, go sail a laser, so you can complain about how your skipper can't drive, and your crew can't trim, and no one else will care.

as for the knots and situations, etc. I've found that it is good to be flexible. there have been too many times where a sufficiently low-probability event has happened that has required some improvisation. plan and practice for perfection, but know how to react when something goes wrong, even if that something is caused by a novice or panicked crew.

#113 Pierre S

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 08:45 AM

Inshore, regattas etc etc. better to not loose the sheet. If you bail out you are generally stuffed anyway in terms of race result.. Races such as this wont start or race in full extreme conditions and sails are controllable in 99.9% of the situations.
Offshore races are a different thing. Mini-Maxi is a different kettle of fish.. your talking 1/2km2 min for kite area..

Each to their own some people have horror stories with knots and others without, all as dangerous as each other.


1/2 km2? Yikes... Or do you mean 500 m2?

#114 No.6

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 05:27 PM




...
I can see the argument to not have knots in the sheets. But I can not imagine a situation where it is wise to let the guy run.


how about a chinese?


Rather release the foreguy/downhaul. You have to be quick about it but getting the pole to sky opens the top (thus dumping air) of what was formally the luff and keeps the pole out of the water. If you are rolling into a chinese, trim on hard to try and rotate the shoulders to get the boat back on her feet. If unsuccessful, keep trimming sheet so the sail collapses from what used to be the leeward side. Nothing worse than getting pinned chinese.


well yes.

But none of those things worked, or a wave spun you around... and you're all clinging to a vertical deck; the boat is pinned with the pole wherever the fuck it is under the water below the rig (now horizontal). How do you get the kite back and the boat under control other than by blowing the old brace (guy) and pulling in the now windward sheet?

And who's going down to BMAX (under water, don't forget) to undo the clusterfuck knot that some thoughtful crew put in the brace?

add double plus ungood for boats with runners.

We fully agree on pulling the sheet as both of us have said.
You know what I find happens whenever you try to let things like a brace run? They always manage to hackle of tie themselves around something.
Runner can be a bitch especially on a boat where they actually keep the rig up.

#115 No.6

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 05:33 PM


So would you say the poor fellow on the tack line got a little flustered and the result was as stated?

you, sir, are coming off as a bit of a douche. while I would like to sail in the world where every boat only allows people with 30+ years of experience , cat-like reflexes, and telepathic interconnection, I, and many other people don't. we're always training someone new, and heavy-weather experience counts more than a calm training. guess what, people panic. some people even make mistakes. when that happens we gods of the bow are often called upon to fix things. bitching at whoever made the mistake doesn't get the boat back upright. save it for the bar. or better yet, go sail a laser, so you can complain about how your skipper can't drive, and your crew can't trim, and no one else will care.

as for the knots and situations, etc. I've found that it is good to be flexible. there have been too many times where a sufficiently low-probability event has happened that has required some improvisation. plan and practice for perfection, but know how to react when something goes wrong, even if that something is caused by a novice or panicked crew.


I think you need to take quote that in context of the exchange between Beau and myself..
One thing I will say is if you are sailing on a boat where there are not enough experience people at key positions for such conditions, why would you be pressing beyond your collective capabilities?
Having folks coiling lines and being prepared for a crash is also helpful. Actually discussing who will do what when it all goes pear shaped has merit as well.

#116 jerryj2me

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 10:25 PM

So I volunteer to be crew boss on a 38' 4knt *box with a race history of DFL because I'm such a giver and there's possibly unattached hotties on the boat, which might make my summer much more fun. There's lots of problems: equipment, deck choreography, steering, which way to go. As a former ski instructor I know how to proffer advice without ruffling feathers.

After four dismal trips around the rink I keep finding stopper knots in the sheets. I untie them when found and finally figure out the pit duffer is tying them in. I suggest this might be not a good idea and he essentially tells me to f*ck off, that's the way he's always done it; it's so you can never "lose" the sheet. I advise that sometimes letting a sheet run is a good thing: broaches, jib pulling out of the foil after a halyard or tack fitting break, prop wraps, releading the sheet over the pole, kite shrimping, hangups around cockpit appendages, etc.; and a honking big knot (this ain't no figure of eight knot, it's more like a monkey's fist which takes forever to untie) is not good. He looks me in the eye and reties the knots.

Now, I've been around the block, 40 years of competitive racing on my boat(s) and others, won a few national championships and lots of regional 1st place jackets etc., and have never raced on a boat with knots in the sheets and guys. This belligerent reaction to a simple fact(?) set me to thinking. Maybe the duffer is right, it doesn't matter unless it's blowing like stink. Are there any compelling reasons to *not* knot your sheets and guys? Is it a safety thing or an equipment handling problem?

One thing I've learned is when you get into an argument about technique and the idea sounds totally whacked, step back and think it over; there might be some merit in the whackage you're hearing. Anybody want to chime in and tell me why I'm not insane? I want ammo to tell this guy there *will* be no knots in sheets and guys if I'm running the show.


Interesting discussion.

Did you ever think of taking this up one on one with the
crew and if that did not work getting the skipper/owner involved
in the discussion?

That might be more productive than coming on a public forum and
bad mouthing the boat you are on, the crew's capability and all that.

For the most part if you got a compelling reason for
something people will generally listen.

Important thing to remember, if you have been requested
to mentor and teach the crew, that means you have been given
an opportunity to make that crew improve. Treat it as an opportunity.
Good coaches can do great things, but they need to coach and not condemn.

As for how certain boats are rigged? That can vary on weather and
safety concerns for sure. On my boat, I have an asymmetric spinnaker with
long sheets (about 2.5 boat lengths) that can be run loose to totally depower the rig
without losing the sheets out of the blocks. The Spin can fly horizontal in front
of the boat before you would hit a bitter end stopper knot. So the stopper knot,
present or not, is largely a non issue.

There might be some emergency situations where you need more than that
but where I sail these days, challenging weather is pretty rare.

Why is it rigged that way? Between the sailmaker and the rigger, I got their
opinions on how to set things up and respected their opinions and coaching.
Their opinion was least probability of lost lines and easiest recovery if the
spin had to be depowered in a rush. I am not an expert so I sought expert opinions.

If this was San Francisco having the capability to let it run PDQ in a stink would
be a must have. Here in San Diego we are lucky to get enough wind to make steerage.

#117 Desprit

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:23 AM

I have to disagree with the no knots crowd.

Sheets should be long enough so they can eased enough in a broach to completely depower the spinnaker and still have the tail in the trimmers hand. Letting the sheet go and have the flogging of the kite pull the sheet through the block just creates another unnecessary problem i.e. how to get the sheet back. In a broach easing the sheet completely heading up on to a reach to increase boatspeed and reattach flow over the rudder followed by a big bearaway has always worked on the boats I have sailed on. Because we have control of the sheets no harm is done and we are back racing. I my opinion trying to retrieve a flogging sheet is much more trouble and probably more dangerous.

The golden rule in these situations is not to let the brace run because if you do and it snags things go from bad to worse rapidly.

If you are in a broach and find that the above is not working for you just blow the halyard then there should be no problem bearing away and the gear is all on the right side so you can hoist again right away. The main thing is you are still in control and not pissing around try to retrieve flogging sheets and or braces.

Another thing to think about is if you are on a larger boat in 35 knots plus and let the kite sheets run completely if when you come upright there is a boat dead ahead you have a good chance of decapitating one or more of their crew.

#118 dogwatch

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:00 AM

In a broach easing the sheet completely heading up on to a reach to increase boatspeed and reattach flow over the rudder followed by a big bearaway has always worked on the boats I have sailed on.


So when, say, J24 crews stepped onto the keel to get the boat back upright, all they actually needed to do was ease the sheet completely. If only they'd known that.

#119 Desprit

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:15 AM

In a broach easing the sheet completely heading up on to a reach to increase boatspeed and reattach flow over the rudder followed by a big bearaway has always worked on the boats I have sailed on.


So when, say, J24 crews stepped onto the keel to get the boat back upright, all they actually needed to do was ease the sheet completely. If only they'd known that.


Yes ease the sheet completely. If that does not work blow the halyard. Beats the piss out of stepping onto the keel or trying to retrieve a sheet that has been run in heavy conditions.

#120 Alysum

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Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:57 PM

A few have said here figure 8 on the kite halyard. I hope they realise how dangerous that can be too. No knots on ANYTHING connected to the kite on boats I sail on...

#121 Monster Mash

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 12:25 AM

^
How do you prevent the halyard from running on a douse?

#122 Desprit

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 02:33 AM

^
How do you prevent the halyard from running on a douse?


If you are going to subscribe to this madness then load the end of the halyard on to a self tailing winch which you can then unload safely and let the halyard run completely.

#123 Desprit

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 02:36 AM

A few have said here figure 8 on the kite halyard. I hope they realise how dangerous that can be too. No knots on ANYTHING connected to the kite on boats I sail on...


I am at a loss to understand why you would want to do this. Could you give us an example of a situation when you found running out a sheet and or a halyard completely was necessary?

#124 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:17 AM

I am with John Drake on having a little chat about who does what when things get ugly. I would also point out that there are probably different answers to "What the heck do I do?" if you've got a sym chute or an asym chute and if you've just rounded up or did a Chinese.

#125 Beau.Vrolyk

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:18 AM


A few have said here figure 8 on the kite halyard. I hope they realise how dangerous that can be too. No knots on ANYTHING connected to the kite on boats I sail on...


I am at a loss to understand why you would want to do this. Could you give us an example of a situation when you found running out a sheet and or a halyard completely was necessary?


When the chute is caught on something like a buoy or another boat. Both have happened in the SF Big Boat Series over the years.

#126 No.6

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 02:40 PM

This reminds me of a funny story from my youth Beau. My Dad and one of his best friends both had one of the original C&C 35's. His pal David was a bit less than a good ship's husband. Boats had Atomic fours in them. David's boat develops a gas leak at the carburetor. So Dave, in his usual fashion, cuts down a beer can and places it under the carb to catch the drip. His intention is to empty the beer can and close the fuel valve once out to the start area for a distance race....he forgets. Come dinner time they light up the alcohol stove. Bit too much prime, match applied, blue flame runs down face of cooker and drips onto sole. BOOM. A bang and a quick flash, floor board hits overhead and bilge has burning fuel sloshing around. Out come the dry chemical fire extinguishers and things are brought under control, they continue racing.
Couple of days later David stops by my Dad's boat and is telling him the story over a Gin and Tonic (the standing bet was a bottle of Beefeater for each race). David points to the handle on the engine box, which is a nice teak handle that is affixed with wood screws from behind the fiberglass engine box cover, and he says, "Ya know Dickie, you want to replace that handle with a nice brass one that is through bolted. Damn thing comes right off when you have a fire in the engine compartment." My Dad looks at David and says, "Ya know Davey, I wasn't planning on blowing my boat up anytime soon."

#127 Pokey uh da LBC

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 03:43 PM

Knots in the sheets and guys? Classic risk vs. reward.

Iíd always gone along with the conventional wisdom: Eights in jib and mainsheets but nothing for spin sheets and guys.

Then a few years ago, I heard a second opinion from a well-known local coach hired to sort out our Mumm 30. We were having problems quickly recovering from wipeouts, which are pretty common for this boat.

One of the things he suggested was adding knots (with tails of course) in the sheets and guys, when conditions are moderate (15-20 knots). The idea is that if a trimmer loses a sheet or guy in order to keep on the boat during a wipeout, a quick recovery will still be possible because the line wonít need to be re-rigged in order to get going again.

The key is to have long enough sheets/guys so that you donít get pinned in a crash; and to remember to remove the knots when it pipes up.

But this was on a boat where wipeouts are common and not particularly fatal to your standings.

On the other hand, when rigging a displacement boat, or one where wipeouts rarely happen, the potential performance improvement provided by knotting the sheets and guys wonít outweigh the increased risk.

Bottom line is that knotting your sheets and guys may be a good idea. But you need to weigh the risks and rewards.

#128 Kenny Dumas

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:24 PM

I'm in the no knots camp for almost all cases, but it's certainly a risk-reward decision and we need stopper knots sometimes for sure (halyards etc). My question is what's the best stopper knot and whether there's something better we could do, possibly with a separatte line, to allow quick release under load without a knife.

A slippery figure 8 is my best guess but I haven't tried to release one that's sucked into a block / jammer etc, and it's a pretty big clunky mess. We put stopper balls on the working ends of halyards to keep from sucking them into the mast crane blocks for instance. I'm not suggesting stopper balls but maybe something like that? It seems like it would be good to have it fused at some times too so it would release if the load was more than 100 kg or something for normal braces or the Mumm 30 example.

#129 Lee G

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 04:52 PM

This reminds me of a funny story from my youth Beau. My Dad and one of his best friends both had one of the original C&C 35's. His pal David was a bit less than a good ship's husband. Boats had Atomic fours in them. David's boat develops a gas leak at the carburetor. So Dave, in his usual fashion, cuts down a beer can and places it under the carb to catch the drip. His intention is to empty the beer can and close the fuel valve once out to the start area for a distance race....he forgets. Come dinner time they light up the alcohol stove. Bit too much prime, match applied, blue flame runs down face of cooker and drips onto sole. BOOM. A bang and a quick flash, floor board hits overhead and bilge has burning fuel sloshing around. Out come the dry chemical fire extinguishers and things are brought under control, they continue racing.
Couple of days later David stops by my Dad's boat and is telling him the story over a Gin and Tonic (the standing bet was a bottle of Beefeater for each race). David points to the handle on the engine box, which is a nice teak handle that is affixed with wood screws from behind the fiberglass engine box cover, and he says, "Ya know Dickie, you want to replace that handle with a nice brass one that is through bolted. Damn thing comes right off when you have a fire in the engine compartment." My Dad looks at David and says, "Ya know Davey, I wasn't planning on blowing my boat up anytime soon."


Good thing you didnt have knots in the sheets and guys, or the boat would have surely sunk. :blink:

#130 Slim

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:11 PM

Tie a knot in his penis.

#131 my nuts

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:41 PM

This reminds me of a funny story from my youth Beau. My Dad and one of his best friends both had one of the original C&C 35's. His pal David was a bit less than a good ship's husband. Boats had Atomic fours in them. David's boat develops a gas leak at the carburetor. So Dave, in his usual fashion, cuts down a beer can and places it under the carb to catch the drip. His intention is to empty the beer can and close the fuel valve once out to the start area for a distance race....he forgets. Come dinner time they light up the alcohol stove. Bit too much prime, match applied, blue flame runs down face of cooker and drips onto sole. BOOM. A bang and a quick flash, floor board hits overhead and bilge has burning fuel sloshing around. Out come the dry chemical fire extinguishers and things are brought under control, they continue racing.
Couple of days later David stops by my Dad's boat and is telling him the story over a Gin and Tonic (the standing bet was a bottle of Beefeater for each race). David points to the handle on the engine box, which is a nice teak handle that is affixed with wood screws from behind the fiberglass engine box cover, and he says, "Ya know Dickie, you want to replace that handle with a nice brass one that is through bolted. Damn thing comes right off when you have a fire in the engine compartment." My Dad looks at David and says, "Ya know Davey, I wasn't planning on blowing my boat up anytime soon."

this is an amusing anecdote, with a telling punch line. my point is that very few people plan on blowing up their boats. while good preparation may reduce overall risk, it does not eliminate it. even well-prepared and seasoned crew can experience something bad. they should be prepared for recovery just in case. In training crew, start with prevention, but keep recovery options open. your posts in this thread have focused entirely on teaching prevention as a cure rather than as a risk mitigation strategy. others (myself included) have noted that there are many preventive measures that they can take to reduce the risk of broaching in the first place, but they happen and need recovery.

#132 Desprit

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 05:46 PM

I'm in the no knots camp for almost all cases, but it's certainly a risk-reward decision and we need stopper knots sometimes for sure (halyards etc). My question is what's the best stopper knot and whether there's something better we could do, possibly with a separatte line, to allow quick release under load without a knife.

A slippery figure 8 is my best guess but I haven't tried to release one that's sucked into a block / jammer etc, and it's a pretty big clunky mess. We put stopper balls on the working ends of halyards to keep from sucking them into the mast crane blocks for instance. I'm not suggesting stopper balls but maybe something like that? It seems like it would be good to have it fused at some times too so it would release if the load was more than 100 kg or something for normal braces or the Mumm 30 example.


While I am arguing here for knots in sheets that is not really the point I am trying to make. It is more that being able to let the sheets and or halyard run completely through the blocks is an "ambulance at the bottom of the cliff type of solution". Providing your sheets and halyards are long enough for the correct amount of ease to bring the boat back under control the end of the sheet never gets to the block so it is irrelevant whether or not you have a knot in it. You should never be in a situation where that should be the only, let alone preferable, solution. Beau did mention above catching the spinnaker or its sheet on a mark or another boat but that is extremely rare and maybe there are other solutions to those problems.

I have have sailed in a very windy venue for 34years and been involved in hundred of broaches and never was in a situation where blowing the sheet through the block was a better solution to blowing the kite halyard. I have however been on a boat where the skipper insisted on no knots and in a knockdown both the brace and sheet were blown. We then had a much worse problem to deal with being on a lee shore 35 knots and having to send someone up to the top of the mast to get it down which we eventually managed to do. In this situation it would have been safer as many will point out here to cut the halyard and lose the spinnaker and sheets but as I keep saying just blowing the halyard would have been safest of all the options and we could have kept on racing.

#133 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:05 PM

While we are on the subject of sheets and knots, how the hell do these things work? I've never had the opportunity to use or see them used.

Posted Image

#134 I'moutahere

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:07 PM

While we are on the subject of sheets and knots, how the hell do these things work? I've never had the opportunity to use or see them used.

Posted Image



On a boat? ---- or in the bedroom?

#135 No.6

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:26 PM

While we are on the subject of sheets and knots, how the hell do these things work? I've never had the opportunity to use or see them used.

Posted Image

Soft hanks

#136 BalticBandit

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:42 PM

Knots in the sheets and guys? Classic risk vs. reward.

Iíd always gone along with the conventional wisdom: Eights in jib and mainsheets but nothing for spin sheets and guys.

Then a few years ago, I heard a second opinion from a well-known local coach hired to sort out our Mumm 30. We were having problems quickly recovering from wipeouts, which are pretty common for this boat.

One of the things he suggested was adding knots (with tails of course) in the sheets and guys, when conditions are moderate (15-20 knots). The idea is that if a trimmer loses a sheet or guy in order to keep on the boat during a wipeout, a quick recovery will still be possible because the line wonít need to be re-rigged in order to get going again.

The key is to have long enough sheets/guys so that you donít get pinned in a crash; and to remember to remove the knots when it pipes up.

But this was on a boat where wipeouts are common and not particularly fatal to your standings.

On the other hand, when rigging a displacement boat, or one where wipeouts rarely happen, the potential performance improvement provided by knotting the sheets and guys wonít outweigh the increased risk.

Bottom line is that knotting your sheets and guys may be a good idea. But you need to weigh the risks and rewards.


+1

but you need to leave a tail long enough to get two pairs of hands on to haul back the line. Particularly if this is a boat that has Deck choreography problems, I wouldn't be suprised if someone "blows the wrong line" in some circumstance. I'd rather have a stoppered tail to pull out of the turning block than to be flying a kite blowing straight out from the masthead as we get pulled onto a lee shore:

I've seen too many boats doing wierd doughnuts trying to catch a slack line, and in one case I used my mast (I was motoring) to retrieve the spin sheets of an SJ 21 crewed by 3 teen boys that was about 100m from pronging onto a lee shore.

#137 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 10:57 PM


While we are on the subject of sheets and knots, how the hell do these things work? I've never had the opportunity to use or see them used.

Posted Image

Soft hanks


I know what it is. I asked how is it used. I've never seen one in use or used one myself. I've never seen a photo of one in use.

How is it used.

It looks like a loop with a knot at the end.

#138 Ryley

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 11:14 PM

Dawg,
it's like a chinese finger puzzle. you put the knot through the loop and then milk the cover down the splice to make it secure. We've been trying them on rockit for the tack and clew to make it easier to switch from one chute to the other. The boat I'm racing on at birw uses them for their jib sheets to attach them. they're wicked strong and light.

#139 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:32 AM

Never blow the guy.



A mantra I have lived my life by.

#140 Dawg Gonit

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:53 AM

Dawg,
it's like a chinese finger puzzle. you put the knot through the loop and then milk the cover down the splice to make it secure. We've been trying them on rockit for the tack and clew to make it easier to switch from one chute to the other. The boat I'm racing on at birw uses them for their jib sheets to attach them. they're wicked strong and light.

I would consider using them to attach the jib sheets on my Zap 26 but the seem a bit odd.

You're saying I have to expand the loop that is spliced in, loop over the knot, snug up the splice so the loop cannot slip over the knot and it is all done?

Seems a quick bowline would be better if you are using a line that has had the cover striped back.

Changing kites or jibs with these things seems like there is more to go wrong.

I must be getting old............I miss the days of knots and dead reckoning. :blink:

#141 Regatta Dog

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 03:57 AM


Dawg,
it's like a chinese finger puzzle. you put the knot through the loop and then milk the cover down the splice to make it secure. We've been trying them on rockit for the tack and clew to make it easier to switch from one chute to the other. The boat I'm racing on at birw uses them for their jib sheets to attach them. they're wicked strong and light.

I would consider using them to attach the jib sheets on my Zap 26 but the seem a bit odd.

You're saying I have to expand the loop that is spliced in, loop over the knot, snug up the splice so the loop cannot slip over the knot and it is all done?

Seems a quick bowline would be better if you are using a line that has had the cover striped back.

Changing kites or jibs with these things seems like there is more to go wrong.

I must be getting old............I miss the days of knots and dead reckoning. :blink:


Can you type in a larger typeface? Please?..... Where's the head?

#142 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:13 AM

I love it when one of my crew cause a huge snakes honeymoon then cut something to fix it.

I always ask them back.



#143 Regatta Dog

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 04:26 AM


A few have said here figure 8 on the kite halyard. I hope they realise how dangerous that can be too. No knots on ANYTHING connected to the kite on boats I sail on...


I am at a loss to understand why you would want to do this. Could you give us an example of a situation when you found running out a sheet and or a halyard completely was necessary?


Have you ever played this game in serious weather?

#144 Desprit

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:26 AM


I am at a loss to understand why you would want to do this. Could you give us an example of a situation when you found running out a sheet and or a halyard completely was necessary?


Have you ever played this game in serious weather?


Yes. Where I have sailed for the last 30 plus years if you blew the sheet completely every time you were pinned down you would not finish a lot of races.

The wind strength here would be roughly similar to that of San Francisco. No boats have ever been sunk or gone aground as a result of knots in sheets. On the other hand plenty of entertainment as been provided by the no knotters proudly flying their spinnakers from the masthead with sheets whipping around a long distance in front of the boat. The best act I have ever witnessed was a 47 footer flying their kite in this manner in about 40knots. They spent about 30 minutes trying all sorts of things to get it down but the skipper still refused to do the decent thing and blow the halyard thereby kissing goodbye to about $12K of kite gear. One of his very eager young crew decided to take matters into his own hand and swam out to where the sheets were touching the water periodically. He grabed one of these wrapped it around his wrist and was then plucked out of the water by the spinnaker and flung around like a rag doll for a couple of minutes. He achieved some impressive height with the best guess being about 40ft in the air in the biggest of the gusts. Being not quite as stupid as he looked he realised this was not a winning strategy, let go, and swam to a nearby pub to have a beer and get warmed up.

So as long as you do not blow the guy, and I assume this is true in your case, pretty much any knockdown is quickly and safely recovered from especially if you blow the kite halyard as well.

#145 gybe-ho!

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 06:47 AM


Dawg,
it's like a chinese finger puzzle. you put the knot through the loop and then milk the cover down the splice to make it secure. We've been trying them on rockit for the tack and clew to make it easier to switch from one chute to the other. The boat I'm racing on at birw uses them for their jib sheets to attach them. they're wicked strong and light.

I would consider using them to attach the jib sheets on my Zap 26 but the seem a bit odd.

You're saying I have to expand the loop that is spliced in, loop over the knot, snug up the splice so the loop cannot slip over the knot and it is all done?

Seems a quick bowline would be better if you are using a line that has had the cover striped back.

Changing kites or jibs with these things seems like there is more to go wrong.

I must be getting old............I miss the days of knots and dead reckoning. :blink:


Here ya go Dawg, moving pictures...in colour and it's a talkie too!



#146 Balder

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 07:54 AM

On the subject of what knot to use when you do choose to use a stopper knot -

A stevedores knot is a figure 8 only you go again around the standing end before going back thru the hole. It is just as easy to undo, and is less likely to jam than a figure 8, well - takes more load before it is completely F'd
Attached File  normal_Stevedore_Knot.gif   14.53K   6 downloads

It also works good for this...
Attached File  th_beatingA_DeadHorse.gif   3.32K   10 downloads
which is what we are doing on this subject at this point

#147 LDH

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:34 AM



...
I can see the argument to not have knots in the sheets. But I can not imagine a situation where it is wise to let the guy run.


how about a chinese?


Rather release the foreguy/downhaul. You have to be quick about it but getting the pole to sky opens the top (thus dumping air) of what was formally the luff and keeps the pole out of the water. If you are rolling into a chinese, trim on hard to try and rotate the shoulders to get the boat back on her feet. If unsuccessful, keep trimming sheet so the sail collapses from what used to be the leeward side. Nothing worse than getting pinned chinese.


Interesting ... As much as I hope chinese will be left as our crews dinner preference, it seems to not always be the case. I am usually a bit unaware of what is the best course of action in a chinese (apart from obviously holding on and staying clear of the main sheet as it whips across) ... in that sort of breeze Im usually up at the back of the bus hiking, with everyone else and only a trimmer and grinder forward of the helm but I run forward once the boom is over ... too late to be blowing the kicker? Would this only be a good strategy mid chinese boom coming across? Would be interested to hear what the best course of action is pre, mid and post chinese ... if there is one. Hoping not to get chinesing down to a fine art but may as well be good at damage control for when it happens :D

#148 No.6

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 02:25 PM

I remember reading years ago an article by Bruce Kirby, think it was in Yacht Racing and Cruising (what is now Sailing World). Kirby advocated not releasing the vang/kicker when rolling to weather as the effort of the upper portion of the main was aiding in driving the rig to weather. When you ease the vang it presents or projects more main to applying force to roll out to a greater degree.

#149 jerryj2me

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:07 PM


Dawg,
it's like a chinese finger puzzle. you put the knot through the loop and then milk the cover down the splice to make it secure. We've been trying them on rockit for the tack and clew to make it easier to switch from one chute to the other. The boat I'm racing on at birw uses them for their jib sheets to attach them. they're wicked strong and light.

I would consider using them to attach the jib sheets on my Zap 26 but the seem a bit odd.

You're saying I have to expand the loop that is spliced in, loop over the knot, snug up the splice so the loop cannot slip over the knot and it is all done?

Seems a quick bowline would be better if you are using a line that has had the cover striped back.

Changing kites or jibs with these things seems like there is more to go wrong.

I must be getting old............I miss the days of knots and dead reckoning. :blink:


They actually work quite well, the "lumpy end" (its not a monkey's fist, but I don't know what to call it) will just fit thru the spliced eye when it is not under tension.
Under tension the "lumpy end" can not go through the spliced eye. Very quick on and off of things, low weight and softer than a Wichard clasp or other chunk of stainless thrashing around in the weather.
More compact than a bowline, but you need a eye splice in the bitter end to put it thru to gain the size advantage.

As for the Stevedore's knot? Those make good stoppers and are useful for sailors with small hands tugging on wet lines.
Also due to the multiple turns around the standing end they do not get fouled into a sheave as easily. Still comes apart like the figure 8.

#150 LDH

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:06 AM

I remember reading years ago an article by Bruce Kirby, think it was in Yacht Racing and Cruising (what is now Sailing World). Kirby advocated not releasing the vang/kicker when rolling to weather as the effort of the upper portion of the main was aiding in driving the rig to weather. When you ease the vang it presents or projects more main to applying force to roll out to a greater degree.


Sorry, just to clarify, I meant blowing the spinnaker pole kicker to sky the pole, not the vang. Is this the done thing?

#151 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:35 AM

As for the Stevedore's knot? Those make good stoppers and are useful for sailors with small hands tugging on wet lines.


You know what they say about 'Sailors with small hands'.

Small hands =







Small Gloves.

#152 Desprit

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:41 AM


I remember reading years ago an article by Bruce Kirby, think it was in Yacht Racing and Cruising (what is now Sailing World). Kirby advocated not releasing the vang/kicker when rolling to weather as the effort of the upper portion of the main was aiding in driving the rig to weather. When you ease the vang it presents or projects more main to applying force to roll out to a greater degree.


Sorry, just to clarify, I meant blowing the spinnaker pole kicker to sky the pole, not the vang. Is this the done thing?


Just to chime in. Once when we set the Chicken Shoot in some very strong winds the pole kicker came out of its cleat and the pole skyed resulting in the most violent broach I have ever experienced. So I would be reluctant to use this as a way to stop the rolling. Normally what we do is just oversheet the kite until things settle down. Also easing the pole forward helps.

#153 Asymptote

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:41 AM


I remember reading years ago an article by Bruce Kirby, think it was in Yacht Racing and Cruising (what is now Sailing World). Kirby advocated not releasing the vang/kicker when rolling to weather as the effort of the upper portion of the main was aiding in driving the rig to weather. When you ease the vang it presents or projects more main to applying force to roll out to a greater degree.


Sorry, just to clarify, I meant blowing the spinnaker pole kicker to sky the pole, not the vang. Is this the done thing?


No...in that direction lies disaster. Kite turns into a bag and pulls you right over then its nearly impossible to get the pole back down and under control. In normal round-ups, never touch the guy(brace) or down-fucker (kicker). If its a total disaster, on your ear round-up and you aren't going to recover and get back on your feet, letting the guy run maybe the way out, but it HAS to run cleanly and the sheet HAS to be on a winch and under control. Much, much better is to blow the halyard till the head is kissing the water and then getting the boat heading downwind and getting the kite in with the sheet. When the sheet clew is in the boat and under control, then you ease the guy out to the cloth-gatherers.

For a round-down...get the main sorted out if you have runners, and if you are not coming back up, or are pushing the spin pole through the rig, blow the halyard. Do not let the sheet off, until you are back on your feet. If you can jibe again, do so, and do a standard take-down. Otherwise, use the lazy sheet as a takedown line.

#154 Life Buoy 15

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:45 AM


I remember reading years ago an article by Bruce Kirby, think it was in Yacht Racing and Cruising (what is now Sailing World). Kirby advocated not releasing the vang/kicker when rolling to weather as the effort of the upper portion of the main was aiding in driving the rig to weather. When you ease the vang it presents or projects more main to applying force to roll out to a greater degree.


Sorry, just to clarify, I meant blowing the spinnaker pole kicker to sky the pole, not the vang. Is this the done thing?


Thats the only reason I carry a knife when sailing.
To stab anyone who lets the kicker go!:D

Translation for DoeRag of this foreigner talk.

Kicker = forguy

Pissed = getting drunk.

Root for the team = girl from the western suberbs.

#155 Desprit

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 12:56 AM



I remember reading years ago an article by Bruce Kirby, think it was in Yacht Racing and Cruising (what is now Sailing World). Kirby advocated not releasing the vang/kicker when rolling to weather as the effort of the upper portion of the main was aiding in driving the rig to weather. When you ease the vang it presents or projects more main to applying force to roll out to a greater degree.


Sorry, just to clarify, I meant blowing the spinnaker pole kicker to sky the pole, not the vang. Is this the done thing?


No...in that direction lies disaster. Kite turns into a bag and pulls you right over then its nearly impossible to get the pole back down and under control. In normal round-ups, never touch the guy(brace) or down-fucker (kicker). If its a total disaster, on your ear round-up and you aren't going to recover and get back on your feet, letting the guy run maybe the way out, but it HAS to run cleanly and the sheet HAS to be on a winch and under control. Much, much better is to blow the halyard till the head is kissing the water and then getting the boat heading downwind and getting the kite in with the sheet. When the sheet clew is in the boat and under control, then you ease the guy out to the cloth-gatherers.

For a round-down...get the main sorted out if you have runners, and if you are not coming back up, or are pushing the spin pole through the rig, blow the halyard. Do not let the sheet off, until you are back on your feet. If you can jibe again, do so, and do a standard take-down. Otherwise, use the lazy sheet as a takedown line.


This is very good advice and in my opinion exactly correct. These techniques apply up to the highest wind strengths you could ever fly a kite in. My reason for being so vocal in this thread is that I am quite disturbed by the reverential tones people have used when they proudly state they never have knots in their sheets and or halyards. What is implied by these assertions is that they would in the event of a knockdown take a different course of action to what Asymptote has outlined above. This in turn leads me to wonder what else are they getting wrong.

#156 dogwatch

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:06 AM

The wind strength here would be roughly similar to that of San Francisco. No boats have ever been sunk.......as a result of knots in sheets.


That's nice. But around here, at least one has. I watched the crew swim away as it went down, which leaves a certain impression on the mind. I really wonder, from what you have written here, how much experience you have with boats that have little righting moment.

#157 dogwatch

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:16 AM

I am usually a bit unaware of what is the best course of action in a chinese


Change the helm.

What else? Well prevention is better than cure. Move the kite sheet lead forwards. Pole forwards, sheet more on than normally. Something that works very well if you have a strong main trimmer is to pump the main as the boat rolls to weather, like a Laser sailor would. But mostly, it's down to the helm to steer to keep the boat under the mast. I've a vivid memory of sailing an IOR-type downwind in 25 knots and flat water on a delivery and being aware of doing almost nothing on the helm. Then I had a distraction and the boat started rolling madly. The slightest corrections I'd unconsciously been previously feeding in to prevent rolls made all the difference.

#158 Desprit

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:17 AM


The wind strength here would be roughly similar to that of San Francisco. No boats have ever been sunk.......as a result of knots in sheets.


That's nice. But around here, at least one has. I watched the crew swim away as it went down, which leaves a certain impression on the mind. I really wonder, from what you have written here, how much experience you have with boats that have little righting moment.


Good point. All of the keel boats I have sailed have had enough righting moment to go offshore.

Maybe you could teach us something. Tell us more about that boat that sank. Did they follow the procedures outlined by Asympote above?

#159 dogwatch

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:25 AM

^

See http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=3751907

I didn't see the initial broach so I cannot describe that. I know that they had knots in sheets and had knives available but nobody was willing/able to go into the water to cut the end which was by then submerged.

#160 Desprit

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:42 AM

^

See http://forums.sailin...dpost&p=3751907

I didn't see the initial broach so I cannot describe that. I know that they had knots in sheets and had knives available but nobody was willing/able to go into the water to cut the end which was by then submerged.

Did they blow the kite halyard? If they did and it got jammed somehow did they cut it with those knives they had available?

#161 dogwatch

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:00 AM

^

I don't think they did blow the halyard, initially at least, because the boat was being repeatedly knocked down. It is possible later on that they did. I cannot be certain on that point.

#162 LDH

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 07:53 AM

OK so breaking down the answers received, and thanks for responding, the answer is no for anything to do with releasing the pole kicker in a chinese. Wont freak anyone out by trying that :)

So pre chinese, if you think its coming sheet on and pole forward a bit (a foot or two yeah? pressume only easing so much as can be trimmed on concurrently as excess bagginess will power up the kite rather than depower by shaddowing behind the mainr? Is this the right thought train?).

If its already happing, hold on and leave brace put ... the risk here seems to be the butt end of the pole ripping itself off the mast right? But thats still the best option?

And if you're pinned there by the chinese (active sheet has usually smoked itself from the winch when this happens in my limited experience) go halyard? And then retrieve from lazy sheet and ease brace as needed to retrieve once its depowered enough by halyard being far enough down.

Was my reading comprehension ok?

Obviously if its not that windy you can often just swing the pole over and make it on the other side, done that. Or gybe back, done that too. But have been pinned before also.

#163 duncan (the other one)

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 10:17 AM

So pre chinese, if you think its coming sheet on and pole forward a bit (a foot or two yeah? pressume only easing so much as can be trimmed on concurrently as excess bagginess will power up


One thing which seems to be missing in the above discussion is that if you're rolling to weather a bit and fighting it (this is before the 'oh fuck' moment), have a good look at the top of your main. As others have pointed out, letting it fall off to leeward of the mast is bad.. it'll push the rig to weather running DDW. Make sure you have enough vang on, and maybe even some more mainsheet.

But yes, sheet on, and pole forward will help, too.

#164 my nuts

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 02:28 PM



Dawg,
it's like a chinese finger puzzle. you put the knot through the loop and then milk the cover down the splice to make it secure. We've been trying them on rockit for the tack and clew to make it easier to switch from one chute to the other. The boat I'm racing on at birw uses them for their jib sheets to attach them. they're wicked strong and light.

I would consider using them to attach the jib sheets on my Zap 26 but the seem a bit odd.

You're saying I have to expand the loop that is spliced in, loop over the knot, snug up the splice so the loop cannot slip over the knot and it is all done?

Seems a quick bowline would be better if you are using a line that has had the cover striped back.

Changing kites or jibs with these things seems like there is more to go wrong.

I must be getting old............I miss the days of knots and dead reckoning. :blink:


They actually work quite well, the "lumpy end" (its not a monkey's fist, but I don't know what to call it) will just fit thru the spliced eye when it is not under tension.
Under tension the "lumpy end" can not go through the spliced eye. Very quick on and off of things, low weight and softer than a Wichard clasp or other chunk of stainless thrashing around in the weather.
More compact than a bowline, but you need a eye splice in the bitter end to put it thru to gain the size advantage.

As for the Stevedore's knot? Those make good stoppers and are useful for sailors with small hands tugging on wet lines.
Also due to the multiple turns around the standing end they do not get fouled into a sheave as easily. Still comes apart like the figure 8.

the knot is a diamond knot. they're really easy to tie. you start with a carrick bend then tuck the strands up through the middle. anyone can make their own soft shackles in about 5 minutes.

#165 Somebody Else

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:14 PM

the knot is a diamond knot. they're really easy to tie. you start with a carrick bend then tuck the strands up through the middle. anyone can make their own soft shackles in about 5 minutes.

Are you talking about those soft shackles?
Because a diamond knot takes two ends and two standing parts (i.e. it starts off as a "bend") and that soft shackle has but one end and standing part.
___________

edit: never mind. Found this:

Posted Image

#166 No.6

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 04:14 PM



I remember reading years ago an article by Bruce Kirby, think it was in Yacht Racing and Cruising (what is now Sailing World). Kirby advocated not releasing the vang/kicker when rolling to weather as the effort of the upper portion of the main was aiding in driving the rig to weather. When you ease the vang it presents or projects more main to applying force to roll out to a greater degree.


Sorry, just to clarify, I meant blowing the spinnaker pole kicker to sky the pole, not the vang. Is this the done thing?


No...in that direction lies disaster. Kite turns into a bag and pulls you right over then its nearly impossible to get the pole back down and under control. In normal round-ups, never touch the guy(brace) or down-fucker (kicker). If its a total disaster, on your ear round-up and you aren't going to recover and get back on your feet, letting the guy run maybe the way out, but it HAS to run cleanly and the sheet HAS to be on a winch and under control. Much, much better is to blow the halyard till the head is kissing the water and then getting the boat heading downwind and getting the kite in with the sheet. When the sheet clew is in the boat and under control, then you ease the guy out to the cloth-gatherers.

For a round-down...get the main sorted out if you have runners, and if you are not coming back up, or are pushing the spin pole through the rig, blow the halyard. Do not let the sheet off, until you are back on your feet. If you can jibe again, do so, and do a standard take-down. Otherwise, use the lazy sheet as a takedown line.


Not so sure about the downhaul. If you are in a chinese, boom pointed to the heavens above and pole about to go in the water, if you let off a few feet of downhaul it keeps the pole from loading as it hits the water and dumps the luff open to spill air. Not really talking about letting it sky but just stopping it from going in the drink and either shattering or damaging the mast. Grind on sheet as what would have been a leeward break (prior to going by the lee) will collapse the sail allowing the boat to stand up again. As the boat stands back up, downhaul on, main gybes back to the correct side of the boat and off you go.

The best practice when sailing deep in a breeze is keeping the kite's centerseam parallel and out in front of the headstay. Thus why folks talk about letting the pole forward a bit. Grind and dump the sheet to keep the shoulders square and keep the boat on her feet. Grind when heeling to weather and dump when heeling to leeward, which is a bit counter intuitive to some folks. Also the helm needs to steer into to roll of the boat. This in effect sails the boat back under the sail.

Point in not releasing the Guy/Brace when rounding up is that it gets the sail off to leeward and remains full which just exacerbates the knockdown. You are better off allowing the sail to collapse, deloading, then turn down to get her back on her feet. Before trimming on again, make certain the helm has regained control/rudder has re-attached before filling the kite.

The whole trick to sailing deep in a breeze is keeping the boat under the sail. You need to make proactive adjustments to sheet and helm to make that happen. Once the sail is controlling you, rather than you controlling the sail, that is when bad things happen.

#167 mustang__1

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:49 PM

theres nothing fun about having a good broach and then both sheets and guys running to the end with the kite refilling half a mile off the boat.

#168 axolotl

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:46 PM

theres nothing fun about having a good broach and then both sheets and guys running to the end with the kite refilling half a mile off the boat.


With no knots, add having the sheet-guy(s) rattle off the clew(s) and disappear into the briny deep. Saw an owner actually cry when that happened. It was a Tylaska shackle; I thought they couldn't accidentally open 'till that incident proved otherwise.

#169 167149

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:41 PM


A few have said here figure 8 on the kite halyard. I hope they realise how dangerous that can be too. No knots on ANYTHING connected to the kite on boats I sail on...


I am at a loss to understand why you would want to do this. Could you give us an example of a situation when you found running out a sheet and or a halyard completely was necessary?


Farr 1104 mouth of tamaki river BBYC wed night race 15>18 kts ,prestart no lookout to leeward port tack, all but collected Motukorea beacon on starboard side while closehauled, beacon brushed headsail but picked up kite halyard ( off the wind start) only noticed halyard caught as it smoked out of the clutch, spinhead draped completely over beacon and although no knots in sheets and braces and they ran freely there was one very tight one right at the bitter end of the halyard, wound up pinned and pirouetting and not a knife in sight and stayed there till the main came down, put a guy on the beacon and after wading through cloth for an age he finally pinged the halyard shackle, retrieved a stretched and soggy chute and proceeded to empty the fridge

#170 mh111

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:12 PM



A few have said here figure 8 on the kite halyard. I hope they realise how dangerous that can be too. No knots on ANYTHING connected to the kite on boats I sail on...


I am at a loss to understand why you would want to do this. Could you give us an example of a situation when you found running out a sheet and or a halyard completely was necessary?


Farr 1104 mouth of tamaki river BBYC wed night race 15>18 kts ,prestart no lookout to leeward port tack, all but collected Motukorea beacon on starboard side while closehauled, beacon brushed headsail but picked up kite halyard ( off the wind start) only noticed halyard caught as it smoked out of the clutch, spinhead draped completely over beacon and although no knots in sheets and braces and they ran freely there was one very tight one right at the bitter end of the halyard, wound up pinned and pirouetting and not a knife in sight and stayed there till the main came down, put a guy on the beacon and after wading through cloth for an age he finally pinged the halyard shackle, retrieved a stretched and soggy chute and proceeded to empty the fridge

knots or no knots : idiots will always find a way to @#^& up

cheers,




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