18 replies to this topic

[Paul Hellings]

I'm updating a Holder 20 ( OK, everybody laugh now and get it out of your system) and am considering a square top mainsail.

Up to now, I've added a sliding bowsprit and an asymmetrical spinnaker, and have modified the original rig by sweeping back and lengthening the spreaders and moving the shrouds outboard and back, eliminating the backstay.
I'm using a 100% blade jib and a fully battened VERY roachy main. the boat sails really well in a breeze and the modified rig seems very stable. The boat is a lot more fun to sail now than it was with the 155% genny since in a breeze the main works well without the 155 backwinding it.

Problem is, in light air, i'm missing the sail area I gave up by going from the 155 to the 100% jib. The larger main helps, but I want to add more area and have the mainsheet, vang and traveller capacity to ( I believe ) manage a square top main. I can accommodate a 24'6" luff and a 9'9" foot. I understand the center of effort / center of lateral resistance concept and can tweak mast position and rake accordingly. Right now the boat is well balanced with it's sail of those dimensions and lots of roach.

I know it's probably more practical to buy a different boat etc. etc. but playing around with this boat is fun and as much a hobby as a quest.

Can anyone suggest a good source for an appropriate mainsail? Looking for outside the box ideas as opposed to "Contact North Sails"

Thanks for any constructive ideas!

Paul
St. Augustine

[Ryley]

Talk to Tom Hall at tom@hallme.com - he's a partner in Evolution sails and has developed a number of square tops for the Elliotts, and his last boat before an elliott 770 was an MX20. He can get you into contact with the right people to make a good sail that'll meet your design needs.

[MSA]

Contact any loft that you have seen make a good sail. Don't let them treat you like a nobody just because you have a 20 footer. your money is worth the same as anybody's.

Got any Pics of the boat set up? Sounds like a fun Project.

As for downrange power. Is your J1 large enough and powerful enough? Don't just go a bigger main and then de-tune to stop weather helm its an arse about way of trying to increase speed. All you end up is a positive effect from more area and not any Aerodynamic advantage.

[Jerryd]

Wasn't Dave Ullman working on something like that a while back?

[steveromagnino]

I'm updating a Holder 20 ( OK, everybody laugh now and get it out of your system) and am considering a square top mainsail.

Up to now, I've added a sliding bowsprit and an asymmetrical spinnaker, and have modified the original rig by sweeping back and lengthening the spreaders and moving the shrouds outboard and back, eliminating the backstay.
I'm using a 100% blade jib and a fully battened VERY roachy main. the boat sails really well in a breeze and the modified rig seems very stable. The boat is a lot more fun to sail now than it was with the 155% genny since in a breeze the main works well without the 155 backwinding it.

Problem is, in light air, i'm missing the sail area I gave up by going from the 155 to the 100% jib. The larger main helps, but I want to add more area and have the mainsheet, vang and traveller capacity to ( I believe ) manage a square top main. I can accommodate a 24'6" luff and a 9'9" foot. I understand the center of effort / center of lateral resistance concept and can tweak mast position and rake accordingly. Right now the boat is well balanced with it's sail of those dimensions and lots of roach.

I know it's probably more practical to buy a different boat etc. etc. but playing around with this boat is fun and as much a hobby as a quest.

Can anyone suggest a good source for an appropriate mainsail? Looking for outside the box ideas as opposed to "Contact North Sails"

Thanks for any constructive ideas!

Paul
St. Augustine

Why not bang on a max size jib taking into account your new spreader arrangement, that is an easy way to up the horsepower in the light, and you can always change it when the breeze comes up? Roachy jibs seem to work pretty well on sportsboats, as they are so susceptible to choppy conditions due to the short length; the guys who did our jibs for the Shaws have really made a big difference in getting the boats going upwind.

I am not sure what you consider square top or big roach...but either way banging loads of main sail area up high onto a sportsboat then having to depower it can be a bit counterproductive if the rig isn't getting loads of power out of a well cut headsail.

I presume you have ditched any winches and are able to sheet the jib using rachet blocks etc....pulling weight out of everywhere is always a good way to go too.

[Paul Hellings]

Contact any loft that you have seen make a good sail. Don't let them treat you like a nobody just because you have a 20 footer. your money is worth the same as anybody's.

Got any Pics of the boat set up? Sounds like a fun Project.

As for downrange power. Is your J1 large enough and powerful enough? Don't just go a bigger main and then de-tune to stop weather helm its an arse about way of trying to increase speed. All you end up is a positive effect from more area and not any Aerodynamic advantage.

I'm afraid you've lost me there "Aerodynamic Advantage". The "J" is 7.25, same as the original rig. I'm using a jib from an SR Max 21 which is full hoist and has a foot of 7.25. It completely fills the foretriangle and sheets nicely close to the deck.
The boat was originally rated for a 155, so I'm moving the CE forward by eliminating the overlap and hope that will offset the extra main.

I'll get some photos up when the new main is on.

Thanks for the input!

Paul

[Paul Hellings]

I'm updating a Holder 20 ( OK, everybody laugh now and get it out of your system) and am considering a square top mainsail.

Up to now, I've added a sliding bowsprit and an asymmetrical spinnaker, and have modified the original rig by sweeping back and lengthening the spreaders and moving the shrouds outboard and back, eliminating the backstay.
I'm using a 100% blade jib and a fully battened VERY roachy main. the boat sails really well in a breeze and the modified rig seems very stable. The boat is a lot more fun to sail now than it was with the 155% genny since in a breeze the main works well without the 155 backwinding it.

Problem is, in light air, i'm missing the sail area I gave up by going from the 155 to the 100% jib. The larger main helps, but I want to add more area and have the mainsheet, vang and traveller capacity to ( I believe ) manage a square top main. I can accommodate a 24'6" luff and a 9'9" foot. I understand the center of effort / center of lateral resistance concept and can tweak mast position and rake accordingly. Right now the boat is well balanced with it's sail of those dimensions and lots of roach.

I know it's probably more practical to buy a different boat etc. etc. but playing around with this boat is fun and as much a hobby as a quest.

Can anyone suggest a good source for an appropriate mainsail? Looking for outside the box ideas as opposed to "Contact North Sails"

Thanks for any constructive ideas!

Paul
St. Augustine

Why not bang on a max size jib taking into account your new spreader arrangement, that is an easy way to up the horsepower in the light, and you can always change it when the breeze comes up? Roachy jibs seem to work pretty well on sportsboats, as they are so susceptible to choppy conditions due to the short length; the guys who did our jibs for the Shaws have really made a big difference in getting the boats going upwind.

I am not sure what you consider square top or big roach...but either way banging loads of main sail area up high onto a sportsboat then having to depower it can be a bit counterproductive if the rig isn't getting loads of power out of a well cut headsail.

I presume you have ditched any winches and are able to sheet the jib using rachet blocks etc....pulling weight out of everywhere is always a good way to go too.

Haven't calculated the exact numbers yet on the size of the square top. The goal is to restore lost sail area.
That's a good suggestion about the larger jib. The 135 that I have for it might still fit. I'll give that a try, and have a look at some sport boat rigs to see what I might be missing (aside from a real sport boat, that is ;-) I still have the winches aboard, even though we bowstring the jib sheets using two cam cleats. I need at least one winch to raise the keel and also use them to tension the halyards. The boat weighs in at 1160# and is sailed as light as possible.

Thanks,
Paul

[Ryley]

From my own experience on a holder 20 and my elliott, switching jibs is problematic for two reasons - first, you've got to carry more than one jib, and in these boats you don't want to be hauling around excess weight. Second, if you have to actually switch jibs during a race, you've got weight up on the bow where you really don't want it. You can accomplish a lot of the same goals by sticking with your plans for a square top, which is going to be more efficient in the light stuff than trying to keep a large jib filled, and will detune itself in the heavier stuff, admittedly potentially increasing drag at the top, but still with plenty of power. One of the great advantages of the a smaller headsail is the speed with which you can tack compared to a full sized genny - the gains you make on each maneuver compared to your competitors will help to offset the fact that you have a 20' boat and will most likely be sailing in someone's gas 90% of the time - being able to quickly decide on and execute tactical maneuvers is a plus.

[MSA]

What Steve Said. Max out the fore triangle, roach in the top of a head sails does the same as a large square head main, they twist off in higher pressure.
A 2 head sail inventory isn't to much to tackle. A 0-9 knot J1 would weigh in at no more than 7-10kgs, bag and all. Not a huge dent in performance when you consider the gains made from having the right sail up! Alternatively, look at the forecast and leave one on the dock if you know its not going to be used.

[kmcfast]

I think snapper turboed a holder pm him.

[TimFordi550#87]

Paul, MAD sails in Wisconsin and Jerry Latell/Ullman Sails Virginia are teaming up to build square tops for the i550. Might be worth a shout to see what their thinking is. Cool project!

http://www.latellsails.com/

Attached Files

•  SquareTp.jpg   83.85K   128 downloads

[kmcfast]

I'm updating a Holder 20 ( OK, everybody laugh now and get it out of your system) and am considering a square top mainsail.

Up to now, I've added a sliding bowsprit and an asymmetrical spinnaker, and have modified the original rig by sweeping back and lengthening the spreaders and moving the shrouds outboard and back, eliminating the backstay.
I'm using a 100% blade jib and a fully battened VERY roachy main. the boat sails really well in a breeze and the modified rig seems very stable. The boat is a lot more fun to sail now than it was with the 155% genny since in a breeze the main works well without the 155 backwinding it.

Problem is, in light air, i'm missing the sail area I gave up by going from the 155 to the 100% jib. The larger main helps, but I want to add more area and have the mainsheet, vang and traveller capacity to ( I believe ) manage a square top main. I can accommodate a 24'6" luff and a 9'9" foot. I understand the center of effort / center of lateral resistance concept and can tweak mast position and rake accordingly. Right now the boat is well balanced with it's sail of those dimensions and lots of roach.

I know it's probably more practical to buy a different boat etc. etc. but playing around with this boat is fun and as much a hobby as a quest.

Can anyone suggest a good source for an appropriate mainsail? Looking for outside the box ideas as opposed to "Contact North Sails"

Thanks for any constructive ideas!

Paul
St. Augustine

Why not bang on a max size jib taking into account your new spreader arrangement, that is an easy way to up the horsepower in the light, and you can always change it when the breeze comes up? Roachy jibs seem to work pretty well on sportsboats, as they are so susceptible to choppy conditions due to the short length; the guys who did our jibs for the Shaws have really made a big difference in getting the boats going upwind.

I am not sure what you consider square top or big roach...but either way banging loads of main sail area up high onto a sportsboat then having to depower it can be a bit counterproductive if the rig isn't getting loads of power out of a well cut headsail.

I presume you have ditched any winches and are able to sheet the jib using rachet blocks etc....pulling weight out of everywhere is always a good way to go too.

Haven't calculated the exact numbers yet on the size of the square top. The goal is to restore lost sail area.
That's a good suggestion about the larger jib. The 135 that I have for it might still fit. I'll give that a try, and have a look at some sport boat rigs to see what I might be missing (aside from a real sport boat, that is ;-) I still have the winches aboard, even though we bowstring the jib sheets using two cam cleats. I need at least one winch to raise the keel and also use them to tension the halyards. The boat weighs in at 1160# and is sailed as light as possible.

Thanks,
Paul

Randy Smyth says Let' start with the obvious: Squaretop mains look bigger than pinheads. Sail area can generally be expanded by 7 percent with a squaretop profile.

[Ryley]

I think you're going to get more useful range from a square top than you will from two jibs on a fractional rig. It's not just about the extra sail area, it's about the efficiency of that sail area. The head of the main on a holder is going to be projected what,about 2 feet above the head of the jib? With an aerodynamic profile that eliminates the tip vortex and gives lift where you want it - high up in the cleanest air the boat's going to see. It doesn't have to be a radical head on the main, either, to get that performance change.

[Paul Hellings]

I appreciate all the constructive input. I have a lot to work with now, thanks to all of the thoughtful replies. Frankly, I expected a measure of disdain and I got lots of help.thank you Anarchists. I'll let y'all know what the outcome is. I expect some good sailing!
Paul

[misconseption2348]

I think you're going to get more useful range from a square top than you will from two jibs on a fractional rig. It's not just about the extra sail area, it's about the efficiency of that sail area. The head of the main on a holder is going to be projected what,about 2 feet above the head of the jib? With an aerodynamic profile that eliminates the tip vortex and gives lift where you want it - high up in the cleanest air the boat's going to see. It doesn't have to be a radical head on the main, either, to get that performance change.

It's not the size of the jibs that make a difference, it's the shape. Having only 1 sail to do everything is a very brave way to go. It works in OD because everyone is only using one jib ala J22. But if you are doing handicap racing then you need to be able to get proper shapes out of your sails. A J1 will be much deeper and more powerful than a J2 or 3. Do you need 3-4 different headsails? Probably not, but at least 2, 3 would be nice. Cost is always a consideration, but size of the sails can makes it a little easier to do. With 1 jib you will be compromising in just about every condition.

[Paul Hellings]

Update on the Holder 20 Square Top Main.
Finally got it built! Used my new square top main for the first time in a light air PHRF race. sail looks great and helped in the light conditions. Has a 28" head and gives me an extra 20 sq. ft over the stock main (120 - 140 sq. ft.) Boat balance seemed fine upwind in about 5-6 knots. Too light for any definitive judgement, of course. Looking forward to getting some time in on it in a little more wind and getting dialed in on the trim.

Quotes for the sail ran the gamut from a high of $4200 to a low of $1100. All quoted sails used one form or another of a laminate material. I settled on the $1100 sail, which was almost a gift from my sailmaker who makes all the sails for my other, one design, boat.

I'll update this topic from time to time, whether good or bad results.

Paul

[kmcfast]

Pic #1 kevlar i 550 Banks sails Sq. top. Roachy 100% Jib
Pic # 2 dacron less rad Venture 21 OD sails same idea.
pics of yur girlfriends tits would be nice...

Attached Files

•  IMGP2322.jpg   113.29K   62 downloads
•  v21sailsfullcorrected.jpg   156.36K   56 downloads

[Dawg_House]

Pic #1 kevlar i 550 Banks sails Sq. top. Roachy 100% Jib
Pic # 2 dacron less rad Venture 21 OD sails same idea.
pics of yur girlfriends tits would be nice...

Look close; the Portland i550 sails have the N over S logo of North Sails - Portland loft.

 i550-portland 1-crop.jpg   39.29K   43 downloads  DSC_0015-60.jpg   154.78K   47 downloads


There is a new set of Farrar Sails on Phil’s Boat.
We are still waiting at this late hour, for his report on a possible build status change. ??????

 Driveway%20Sailing1.jpg   375.88K   41 downloads


Duncan has been racing in Florida with a set of M20 Quantum sails.

 i550-172.jpg   116.71K   32 downloads


Two Great Lakes i550s outfitted with different flat top designs from MAD sails.
Ron has I550-108 for sale. Great price for someone wanting to get into an i550.

 DSC_62121.JPG   59.24K   26 downloads

[TeamGladiator]

Pic #1 kevlar i 550 Banks sails Sq. top. Roachy 100% Jib
Pic # 2 dacron less rad Venture 21 OD sails same idea.
pics of yur girlfriends tits would be nice...

Look close; the Portland i550 sails have the N over S logo of North Sails - Portland loft.

 i550-portland 1-crop.jpg   39.29K   43 downloads  DSC_0015-60.jpg   154.78K   47 downloads

One of the PDX boats is using main and jib from Banks designed locally. The rest are using North Sails.

The North Sails are Dacron (except for the "trial" sails which were from ultra light 49'er cloth).

The Banks sails are an Aramid paneled sail.

Since this was our first set of sails we went with Dacron to work out any bugs in the shape and design. So far it would appear that the Banks sails are faster in light air and drifting conditions.