41 replies to this topic

[Gouvernail]

So...as I unserstand it, it is NOT ok to yank on the shrouds while standing and roll tacking...



But it is just fine to yank the shit out of the lifelines.



Thee is another thread in this forum about reinforcing stanchions...and this makes sense why??




Why the hell it it legal to yank on, mis use and, and bust the shit out of the required safety equipment...



but it is illegal to simply grab the shrouds and lean??



It sure is not either about safety or boat structure considerations.



Standing and hanging by your gloved hands versus diving awkwardly against a part of the boat where structural issues were a problem before the craziness began.



Am I the only one who wonders why this absurd situation persists??



or has the rule changed while I was not paying attention?

[USA190520]

It's so you don't rip the spreader tips out of the spreaders.

They're plastic and held in by a small screw, in light air stays are loose when youll be roll tacking, it's possible to pull them out

[redboat]

Being allowed to pull on shrouds or yank on lifelines are both ridiculous practices and should be prohibited. It's a sailboat, not a jungle gym.

[-Julian-]

Being allowed to pull on shrouds or yank on lifelines are both ridiculous practices and should be prohibited. It's a sailboat, not a jungle gym.

if it were a jungle gym,
it would have a flying trapeze

[BalticBandit]

It's so you don't rip the spreader tips out of the spreaders.

They're plastic and held in by a small screw, in light air stays are loose when youll be roll tacking, it's possible to pull them out

So??


And for that lack of sensible seamanship your boat might lose the race...



So??



Why have a rule??





and if the lifelines are ruined someone may fall overboard and die...







But why NO rule??

Because I don't think you could write one that is enforcible. The Shrouds is easy - "hands off during tacks". Lifelines - well would you rather have folks grabbing them or going overboard in an attempt to comply with some rule but still rolltack the boat?

[learningj24]

You of all people should be aware of the law of unintended consequences when getting rid of "senseless"rules. Look at what happened to the Laser class when it got rid of it's "senseless" plastic blocks. Now a vang costs as much as a backyard beater Laser.

[USA4182]

Perhaps you didnt listen(or can't read), the shroud end cap is plastic, if your rail meat hangs on the shrouds it will break the plastic piece and pull the shroud off of the spreader, then the mast breaks, etc.

What's the big deal, everyone in the class knows the rules.

This is such a non issue.....

P

[USA4182]

If your stanchions can't hold up to roll tacking then that is your issue, with your boat,and your safety problem.
You can easily upsize to the newer bases and add a small knee brace underneath the deck to reinforce it.
If the bases are soft I bet the core under the base is compromised from water. You may need to recore the deck in that spot also. Its called basic maintenance, and let me guess, the boat is only 30 years old....

After having done this my stanchions don't move and we have stress tested(300 pound twing guy yanking on them) them on a few occassions, the tube bends long before the base does anything to the deck. Heck even in a t bone the tube bends and the base stays.

This is a know repair/upgrade in the class for years.

As for hanging on the shrouds, its a safety issue for the boats originally equipped with the plastic caps, get over it, not gonna change, its a class rule, has been forever. Deal.

I really don't get how these issues are related, and as stated previously, its a non issue, a non starter.

P

[USA4182]

One more thing, you say, "a good boat like mine", if your stanchions can't hold up to roll tacking then I venture a guess its not really a good boat. Also, the spreaders you are talking about, with the wire around the shroud are what, 30+ years old, they went the way of the DoDo back in 1978. So most of the fleet is equipped with the plastic caps. However the caps are not an issue because of the no hanging on the shroud rule.

Every good boat I have seen has at a minimum upgraded to the larger bases, not to mention the underdeck support.

So, we should change a long standing class rule, designed to prevent masts from breaking because you have a good boat with crappy stanchion bases....Fix your boat, lets not change the rules to reflect a lack of maintenance on a boat that is 30 years old.


P

[crash]

One more thing, you say, "a good boat like mine", if your stanchions can't hold up to roll tacking then I venture a guess its not really a good boat. Also, the spreaders you are talking about, with the wire around the shroud are what, 30+ years old, they went the way of the DoDo back in 1978. So most of the fleet is equipped with the plastic caps. However the caps are not an issue because of the no hanging on the shroud rule.

Every good boat I have seen has at a minimum upgraded to the larger bases, not to mention the underdeck support.

So, we should change a long standing class rule, designed to prevent masts from breaking because you have a good boat with crappy stanchion bases....Fix your boat, lets not change the rules to reflect a lack of maintenance on a boat that is 30 years old.


P

Let me see if I understand your logic here. You don't want to allow grabbing shrouds because your boat has plastic caps. But the guy who doesn't want his stanchion bases punched thru the deck doesn't have a "good boat"? do I have that right?

And he has a safety issue (stanchion/lifeline security) when used as a lever to roll tack, but you don't when shrouds used the same way (at much lower force level OBTW to get same roll) would pull shroud out of cap and risk the mast? Do I have that right?

Seems to me your issue is the mirror image of his...

[entropy]

The middle stanchion DOES take some abuse and many boats have bent them and crunched the deck underneath them. But they are almost never bent out. They always get bent in and the deck crunches are always on the inboard side.

The two biggest dudes on the boat sit on either side of that stanchion and when they grab the top of it and use it to haul their butts up to the rail, they can do some damage.

Legal or not, rolling off the shrouds is stupid. The jibs overlap.

[USA190520]

It's so you don't rip the spreader tips out of the spreaders.

They're plastic and held in by a small screw, in light air stays are loose when youll be roll tacking, it's possible to pull them out

So??


And for that lack of sensible seamanship your boat might lose the race...



So??



Why have a rule??





and if the lifelines are ruined someone may fall overboard and die...







But why NO rule??

You can also be hit in the head by the boom, and killed, why no rules against gybing?

If ya wanna roll tack tyour boat using the lifelines, either log into a forum to whinge or add elbows under your deck and reinforce your bases, lash your lifelines accordingly and carry on or don't roll tack that way.


Rules, they're a motherfucker....

[USA190520]

Actually my stanchions are sitting on special reinforcement pads I designed and installed on over 200 boats before the new larger bases were invented.



The problems with hanging on the lifelines to roll tack are multiple:

1. It is an awkward and assinine thing to ask any crew on any boat to do when that crewmwmber could simpl;y grab the shrouds and accomplish more with much less effort.
2. The stanchion poles are inadequate for use for anything other than catching a sailor as he would otherwise fall into the bay and drown. Take a look at most any campaigned J-24 and you will find bent poles, replaced poles, and cracked decks around teh bases. What an assinine thing to do to a sailboat.
3. The plastic end caps are dangerously inadequate if a sailor who has lost his balance cannot grab the wires without risking demasting the boat. The plastic cannot take it excuse for the rule is based upon reckless abandonment of common safety considerations.



The rule in its current form is ignorantly concieved and only supported by fools..

But we're fools who can get up, on our feet, tack, stay on our feet, roll the boat without "falling into" our stanchions ( which we've upgraded and reinforced as a safety measure and general maintence) and while still on our feet manage to complete the tack gracefully and without issue or "effort".

Sorry if that doesn't describe you. I seem to remember another thread in which you were advocating doing bow from your ass, it seems to me that you've pulled this argument outta there as well.

So, no yanking chains, who knows what else may fall out

[USA190520]

Motherfuckingcocksuckingsonofamotherfuckingcunt!

There ought to be a fucking rule!

[Tool]

This is ridiculous. Either upgrade the shit out of your boat or get a new one. Either way will cost about the same if you do it right.

[USA4182]

Actually, my boat has metal shroud end caps, I managed to get a set from overseas, so I am not worried about an OH Shit moment and someone pulling a shroud out of the spreaders as you suggest.

I do not see an issue with roll tacking, and if my 300+ pound twing guy can do it, and not get caught by the genoa, and not destroy my deck, I see no issue why any normal size human can't do it. Just in case there is any doubt that I have a clue, I would bet that USA190520 would substantiate my crews ability to roll tack and gybe with the best of 'em.

Look, bottom line, you don't like the rule, here is your solution. Get off your ass, do some research and make a lucid, well thought out rule change proposal to the class and the tech committee. It will be vetted by Tech, reviewed, argued, harangued, etc. Then after all of your hard work it will get voted down most likely. The you can whine that you tried to make a change and the class ignored you instead of just whining about a long time rule on some forum.

If you don't want to do that work then Shut the F up and just sail your "good" boat against everyone else with the current rules that everyone plays by, and rules that have for the most part, worked for over 25 years. By the way, on other boats how do you roll tack? Most boats I have sailed all use the life lines, maybe one or two guys get to use the shrouds but everyone else uses the lifelines, maybe you should make your no lifeline roll tacking proposal to US Sailing. Ahh Ha ha ha ha, I kill me......

I love loose ideas with no desire to do the work to substantiate them.

Like I said earlier, this is a non issue and really a non starter.

[USA190520]

Actually, my boat has metal shroud end caps, I managed to get a set from overseas, so I am not worried about an OH Shit moment and someone pulling a shroud out of the spreaders as you suggest.

I do not see an issue with roll tacking, and if my 300+ pound twing guy can do it, and not get caught by the genoa, and not destroy my deck, I see no issue why any normal size human can't do it. Just in case there is any doubt that I have a clue, I would bet that USA190520 would substantiate my crews ability to roll tack and gybe with the best of 'em.

Look, bottom line, you don't like the rule, here is your solution. Get off your ass, do some research and make a lucid, well thought out rule change proposal to the class and the tech committee. It will be vetted by Tech, reviewed, argued, harangued, etc. Then after all of your hard work it will get voted down most likely. The you can whine that you tried to make a change and the class ignored you instead of just whining about a long time rule on some forum.

If you don't want to do that work then Shut the F up and just sail your "good" boat against everyone else with the current rules that everyone plays by, and rules that have for the most part, worked for over 25 years. By the way, on other boats how do you roll tack? Most boats I have sailed all use the life lines, maybe one or two guys get to use the shrouds but everyone else uses the lifelines, maybe you should make your no lifeline roll tacking proposal to US Sailing. Ahh Ha ha ha ha, I kill me......

I love loose ideas with no desire to do the work to substantiate them.

Like I said earlier, this is a non issue and really a non starter.

Oh I wouldn't say you guys roll tack, it's more like an Italian bakery tack...

Rolls everywhere!!!

[USA190520]

There should be a rule against having stored energy

How much energy can a "Frank" store? It's like having hydros that are mobile....


So yeah, these guys can roll a boat any way you'd like to see it, and if frank can't rip it off your deck, it's never getting ripped out.

[USA4182]

"Gee I wonder if someone will do the work to revisit a rule that he feels is unneccessary".

P

[USA190520]

This may be a shocker... maybe more folks should focus on being a bit more fit and agile instead of lowering the bar to accommodate those who aren't.

This issue is rooted in "lazy"in my opinion.

[USA190520]

How bout the no gps based electrics issue?

[Bash24]

"Gee I wonder if someone will do the work to revisit a rule that he feels is unneccessary".

P

Fuck no!!!


The reasons are well described above., Assholes like you think any discussion about anything is an opportunity for a shitfight. You have no interest what so ever in building the game...just making it happen your way. Your contest never ends. You want to have everything your way , just for you, all the time, fuck everybody else.

The reason your game is shrinking and near death is assholes like you who cannot seem to comprehend it takes lots and lots of eager players to make your game work.



You are sop concerned about YOU you and YOU that there is no room for anyone else and his or opinions. You have yours and those are sufficient.

Your game will continue to die until you figure out how to extend a friendly invitation to as many people as possible and then to constantly re- extend that invitation .



Your game will continue to shrink because assholes like you want to be in charge and run it YOUR way...You are incapable of working together with whoever shows the slightest interest. You are incapable of fostering that interest.



But. You are in charge.



Enjoy your lonely exitence.



The rest of the worlds inhabitants will continue to play and have fun but they will be joining into parties where the welcome mat is ALWAYS out.



Meanwhile...The J-24 Game, which was once THE GAME will continue to shrink and wither away while the old J-24s rot from the inside out along with their closed minded selfish asshole foolish ME I am in charge self proclaimed big shot remaining participants.



Yes, fool, there is a reason I am the last person who ever ran a growing Sailboat Association of over 3000 members.



I may not be lots smarter than the average bear,


but...


I had the sense to constantly ask what people wanted and do my very best to find ways to create a situation whereby as many people as possible actually could find what they wanted.



If you want to spend lots of money on an uncomfortable old sailboat design, beat up your friends who are willing to try sailing on it, and play in tiny fleets whose numbers are an embarassment compared to the fleet's former success..By all means.... get a J-24 and open your wallet!!

51 boats at the 2011 East Coasts. Wait until the 2012 World in Rochester and pay attention to those numbers. Tiny fleets, an embarassment, yeah, the class is dead, dead I tell you, 50+ boats at a Regional Regatta, what pitiful numbers.

[Gouvernail]

pitiful

[USA190520]

Will you be attending the worlds gouv?

[Gouvernail]

Nope. One of these days I will fix up my old boat and come play some but it is not even on this year's agenda.



Jorge did just pick up his boat from my yard to take to Dillon for the US nationals.



Jorge is one of the most refreshing new enthusiasts in the game. he decided to teach sailing to people so there would be more sailors. Every Sunday morning he holds sailing classes at AYC and then finds rides for anybody who wishes to stay for the afternoon races. He has caused many people to not just take up sailing but to buy boats and joiun in the races.


The game needs more Jorges...who do not believe there is a reaason not to know how to sail.



he will be near the back of the fleet at Dilon but his enthusiasm for the game will be among the very most profound. if you get to meet him, enjoy the opportunity.

[Varan]

Spent the day racing 24s today. Close racing, crowded starts, tight roundings... surprised it is not illegal having so much fun. Good times.

[USA4182]

What a fucking baby, anyone who questions his greatness or calls him on something is suddenly an ASSHOLE.

I gave you the process, either follow it or fuck off, cock. You want a shitfit, I can bring it....

Gee, being that we have never met, never spoken, never even traded emails or posts, I think you are a bit short sighted as to who I am, what my motives are, how much I have done to promote sailing, and my dedication to the class, etc. Hey, pick up the phone and call me, that might work also....

Its quite simple, if you don't like it you can do something to change it. OR SHUT THE F UP. I didn't like some things and decided to dedicate myself to my class, for over 20 years, I put the time, and effort in.

By the way, we don't do it "my way", we do it the class way, that means you drum up support for your idea, do the homework with the Tech Committee and write and propose a rule change. Notice the word YOU, get off YOUR high horse and do some work if YOU want to change something. That is how it works, do the work. You are so super smart and if this is such an amazingly intelligent idea it should pass easily. So, write it up.....

P

[Gouvernail]

Sheesh...I had better things to do tonight but I may as well dive in for a few minutes...

What a fucking baby I am, anyone who questions my greatness or calls me on something is an ASSHOLE.

I control the process, either follow it or fuck off, I love sucking cock. You want a shitfit, I eat iit....

Gee, being that we have never met, never spoken, never even traded emails or posts, I am a bit short sighted as to who you are, what your motives are, how much you have done to promote sailing, and your dedication to the game, etc. Hey, pick up the phone and call me, that might work also....

Its quite simple, if you don't like it you can try your heart out to do something to change it but remember, you are not in charge. . SO SHUT THE F UP. I didn't like some things and decided to dedicate myself to my class as opposed to teh game , for over 20 years, I put the time, and effort in to be in charge and concern myself with the class while teh game itself has steadily withered away..

By the way, we don't do it "in any way that has anything to do with teh sailiong or fun", we do it the class way, that means you drum up support for your idea, do the homework with the Tech Committee and write and propose a rule change. Notice the word YOU, get off YOUR high horse and do some work if YOU want to change something. That is how it works, do the work we demand or we will not pay any attention what so ever.. You are so super smart and if this is such an amazingly intelligent idea it should pass easily but it won't becasue we are way more concerner with all the pedantic organizational shit than actually concerning ourselves with quality of the game itself.. So, write it up so we can waste some of your time......

P

You sure are a friendly son of a gun. Your note makes me want to refurbish my boat and head off to a regatta just to meet you. After calling each other names for a few minutes, I imagine I would enjoy the company of a a fellow hard headed asshole.who simply loves sailing.



\



I started a thread suggesting a certain rule makes no sense. You got your padded toerail panties in a wad.



Sorry I hurt your feelings but I really don't give a shit about trying to fix Class Associations and how they are run. I spent way more than $100,000 and wasted four years of my life rescuing the North Am,erican Laser Class and rebuilding it and everything I accomplished for the sailors was wiped out by people who wanted to be in charge but had no interest in doing the necessary things to keep the the growing and prosperous game I had built running as I had set it up to run. The assholes simply wanted to be in charge...and some still are...and the class is still pathetically small and shrinking.



I believe class associations are tools for sailors to use to make the game better.



I do NOT believe class associations are some special entity that we all must worship and support no matter how useless they become.



The J-24 Class Association management system has represented a giant sucking drain of limited promotional and organizational assets for many years now.



it might be argued that back when the Tillmans were running the association their expenses were justified by their orgainzation and promotion.



Or it may be the primary driving force was all the sailmaker competition and the Tillmans just happened to be in the right place at the right time.



Since about 1988 the class has been managed by a system that has wasted far too many resources on "running the association" while spending virtually nothing on organization and promotion of the game the association was formed to support.


HInt: The class needs a fanatic general manager who describes his position as "Being paid to get everybody to come play with me."



The class does NOT need a committe that tells teh manager what to do. The class needs a group of officers who chip in and help the fanatic any way they can.

Those otehr officers have to understand, The fanatic loves the game so much the fanatic is doing the manager job. The other officers need to understand, none of them is willing to quit "the day job" to simply promote J-24 sailing and the very best thing anyoine else can do is hep the fanatic do exactly as all J-24 sailors would love that fanatic to do...get more people out to play!!!



When the fanatic wears down?? find another sucker!!!





Back to the subject of this thread...



I suggested the rule is senseless.



I believe a rule should only be in place if that rule somehow enhances the game we play.



Does the rule bring more sailors out to play??



Does the rule make the game more fair??



Does the rule make the game a better test of skill.


Does the rule lower the cost of maintaining the toys for competition at the highest level.

The J-24 class is notorious for ignoring its opportunity to legislate durability and prevent sailors from purchasing an advantage.

From the very beginning when the factory keels were nearly identical but nothing like the "design" the Class caved into those who improved their former one design toys and caused millions of our sailing dollars to be spent on keel fairing.



The idiocy has continued through the years as the inept technical committee has allowed carbon poles, replacement of the oak traveler bar, various and sundry masts, Italian boats whose hulls are too long, unusable lightweight motor mounts, entirely reshaped and thinner rudders, throw away Mylar sails that had less weight aloft than the Dacron sails, and the list goes on and on.

Hell no!! I do NOT support the class. I support the game!! I support things that make the game more accessible to anyone who happens to stumble along.


Mostly and I mean mostly...every rule should be revisited as often as possible by careful scrutinizers who ask...Does this rule help our game??


The Class passed the 882 pound rule...and the game shrunk.

The Class passed the Mylar sails rules...and the game shrunk

The Class passed rules allowing carbon polles and the game shrunk

The Class passed rules allowing fancy expensive compasses and the game shrunk

Would the game have shrunk without those rule changes?? I don't know. But whenever I change something and right after that change bad things happen, I at least suspect the change might be somehow involved in the result.

Too many bad ideas have become permanent J-24 class conditions of participation.



Once a rule is in place nobody seems willing to ask as I did by beginning this thread...



Does the rule in question help the game??


Or should it be deleted? ( rule..this thread..maybe both)



Consideration of my suggestion has no buisiness being about whether I can formulate a proper presentation to a committee of people who love to peruse proper presentations for their fun.

( Anybody who has been a Class Officer for twenty years should be suspected of being too damn willing to spend time on class organization when he should be spending time on things related to sailing)

This thread is is about improving the pleasure of sailboat racing



This is about a rule I believe does absolutely nothing for the game of sailboat racing.



You are right there on the committee...If you cannot convince yourself the rule has a positive impact on the game..then change or delete it.



if you do not want to change the rule I hope your reasons have 100% to do with your belief the rule somehow enhances the game.


Just remember. every penny of our money and second of our time spent making the Class operate or maintaining our toys as racers comes from a limited supply.



The class is best when it is a tool not an obstacle.

The one design concept is best when a person can buy a factory boat, rig it, launch it, and sail it knowing it goes EXACTLY the same speed as every other boat in its class.



Twenty years is too damned long. Plesase make it your goal to train a young replacement who wasn't born when your ancient boat was built. .




Otherwise...you, my not yet met but someday could end up being my best friend sailing buddy ..might croak and take all your organizational knowledge with you.


Thanks for caring and thanks for working so hard...now find a replacement and go play.

[Bash24]

Gov,

I am an avid J24 sailor and I love the folks in the J24 class, love the boat and the tight racing. I think the reports of the death of the J24 class are gross exaggerations.

However, that being said, I must say that I agree with you 100% on this point:

"The J-24 class is notorious for ignoring its opportunity to legislate durability and prevent sailors from purchasing an advantage."

That is spot on. The most recent developments are the switch to Kevlar / Technora sails which gave us genoas that cost $600 more and they are less durable. Now, they are talking about having two spinnakers on board instead of one.

You are so right on the above point.

[USA4182]

OK, so based on this, we should still have non tapered aluminum spinn poles with bridles, cabin top winches, wire rope halyards led aft, 1000+ pound crews, old masts, old style hatches, etc. You have to admit, not every change was a disaster, or doom and gloom as you state. There is also something called keeping up with technology....to a point.

I still say, if you don't like a particular rule, write up the change, how long could it take, an hour, maybe 2 if you call a few folks for input. Here is another unwritten, unseen, observation, the Tech Comm does evaluate how a rule change will effect existing boats, it is discussed, it is important to them. They also discuss the hardship of implementing rule changes, ie "What will this cost the average sailor?". Nothing is done in a vacuum. Finally, once Tech gets done with it, its still goes to World Council, where all the same questions are asked. I will still differ in our opinion of that rule as its necessary to keep from breaking masts when 2 big crew hang on the shrouds.....anyway. Do I agree with every chang the class has made, no, but I deal with it and move on, as should everyone else.

I don't disagree with most of your rant, except I am very friendly and do like to banter with other hardheads, yourself included. Your right we need fanatics, but we need fanatics at the grass roots level, not necessarily at the top of the class, we need the guy at the local level, we need you, and I and my local fleet and your local fleet to promote the class, in the boat yard, on the dock and with a beer in hand after sailing. That will grow the class, the manager is just an extension of the members and is only as good as the information he gets from the members. Also the manager is one person, we have 700 USJCA members, to me that means we should have 700 people on the marketing and promotion committee. One person can not do it, can not be in multiple places at one time, can not possibly connect with every local scene.

As for past history, the Tillman's did a great job, but in honesty they were probably a product of the day and age. That's not saying they didn't work hard, all I am saying is they had a lot to work with. There was no competition at that point, no viper, no melgi, no other boat that fit the niche the 24 filled. So may I suggest that the rule changes did not shrink the game but the times and outside circumstances played a far bigger role. Honestly, how many people immediately sold their J24 when we allowed carbon poles, or Tack Tick compasses. None. People moved on when times and available options changed. When you are the big class, every little class that comes along takes a bite out, the J22 took some folks, the J105 took some folks, as did the Melges, the viper, etc....To think that we were going to stay at the levels of the late 80s to mid 90's was not realistic. At the same time I think the gloom and doom of a dying class is overstated. The J24 still offers things that other classes don't, so I suggest we settle in for the long haul, at some point the class membership numbers will settle in and we will mature as a class. Do we panic, no, we go about selling the boat and the class to the local kid, the recent college grad, the family with 3 kids, etc.

I have and will continue to support the class to the best of my ability, including finding my replacement, if necessary.

P

[Gouvernail]

OK now that all teh vitriol is absolutely perceived as unnecessary...



Except for teh rule..I hate the rule..



Giggle.



I dekleted most of your post and added some comments...

OK, so based on this, we should still have non tapered aluminum spinn poles with bridles

( This is a great case of an unnecessary change. Nobody had an advantage becasue he had a different pole with bridles. Why allow one guy to pourchase a tapered pole and cause 5000 others to purchase ples so we could once again ahve a one design pole? The sailing is the same. The difference is simply...IT COSTS MORE!!L



, cabin top winches,
Ww all started using teh cabin top winces to trim our genoas and all hell broke loose on winches.Lord only knows what made the most sense there.




wire rope halyards led aft
Wire rope halyards were never a requirement. Wire rope halyards were teh best way to achieve no stretch. Then Spectra came along and there was a better way. Then we ebcame concerend about how spectra was lighter than wiler and legislated a nimnimum halyard diameter that is absurdly fat...to keep people from using shoestring sized spectra stuff. Wire rope halyards cost way more than spectra halyards..or dyneema etc...This di not increas the cost of sailing and spectra does not turn into a lethal sharp edged weapon and does not rat sheaves.


, 1000+ pound crews
I like sailing a J-24 in big breeze with four other 200 punbd guys. My regular team was made up of five big guys when teh 880 rule was legislated and I fought againt it at the time. One of our big guys went to Antarctica and he was replaced with a small woman and we made the weight...but ESPECIALLY for the older skippers, a big strong crew make the sailing more safe and fun. I think teh weight limit is stupid...always have thought it stupid. Everybody can sail with lots of big people. many of us simpoly are not talented enough to enhjoy sailing a J-24 with a bunch or runts some of whom don't even weigh 200 on board.




, old masts,
Masts don't wear out. In fact, the only thing a mast does is corrode. Work hardenting on a j-24 mast is really not an issue as ...well ...ever ehar of an airplkane?? We simply do not aply repeated stresses in sufficient numbers to "wear out" a mast. But...the various builders were not held to a sufficiently tight tolerance and now...The one design J-24 class is only available to us if we all go get new masts from whoever happens to be building the currenl best mast.



old style hatches

Our buiulder changed teh deck molds and made it impossible to have a man stand in teh right place anymore. The damned new style hgatches ( from 1980) are simply too damned small and becuase those hatches put competitors with newer boats at a disadvantage, teams started placing sailor below deck so the sailors could properly position their weight.



I agree, teh new hatches are an abomination and should never have been allowed, but it sdoes not =seem there are droves of teams so conderned with wining they have retrofitted their newer boats with teh more properly designed original hatches.



, etc. You have to admit, not every change was a disaster, or doom and gloom as you state. There is also something called keeping up with technology....to a point.

I still say, if you don't like a particular rule, write up the change, how long could it take, an hour, maybe 2 if you call a few folks for input. ( I used to spend hours chatting with technical committe members and teh chair. I finbally learned their concept of reasonable expense and mine were wildly different.)

I don't disagree with most of your rant, except I am very friendly ( Actually I tried to accuse you of being friendly. I am certain you are a fun fellow.)and do like to banter with other hardheads, yourself included.







Your right we need fanatics, but we need fanatics at the grass roots level, not necessarily at the top of the class, we need the guy at the local level, we need you, and I and my local fleet and your local fleet to promote the class, in the boat yard, on the dock and with a beer in hand after sailing. That will grow the class, the manager is just an extension of the members and is only as good as the information he gets from the members. Also the manager is one person, we have 700 USJCA members, to me that means we should have 700 people on the marketing and promotion committee. One person can not do it, can not be in multiple places at one time, can not possibly connect with every local scene. ( Au contraire. The rest of us ahve real lives and real jobs. The fellow we pay to run our class has a job...run the class and build teh game. When we feed and house teh class manager, that class manager can focus on pone thing...J-24...J-24 J-24. If teh class paid guy is caught sailing J-22s or lasers he is teh wrong guy. He needs to be at 25 events year. he needs to take tons of photos, call regatta hosts all over the country, beg clunbs to host events, support regatta hosts, publish kick assed magazines, beg for articles, interview sailors and make articles ahppen, gatehr and deisseminate information and gather and disseminate information and gather more information and spread teh word about How wonderful J-24s are, how easy it is to get one, how easy it is to maintain one and how easy it is to find friends who ahve J-24s with whom you can go play.



AND!! that guy nees to spend 8 to 16 hours a day living J-024 every day of teh eyar.



There are eager people ready to do that job if we would simply make that job available.

As for past history, the Tillman's did a great job, but in honesty they were probably a product of the day and age. That's not saying they didn't work hard, all I am saying is they had a lot to work with. There was no competition at that point, no viper, no melgi, no other boat that fit the niche the 24 filled. So may I suggest that the rule changes did not shrink the game but the times and outside circumstances played a far bigger role. Honestly, how many people immediately sold their J24 when we allowed carbon poles, or Tack Tick compasses. None. People moved on when times and available options changed. When you are the big class, every little class that comes along takes a bite out, the J22 took some folks, the J105 took some folks, as did the Melges, the viper, etc....To think that we were going to stay at the levels of the late 80s to mid 90's was not realistic. At the same time I think the gloom and doom of a dying class is overstated. The J24 still offers things that other classes don't, so I suggest we settle in for the long haul, at some point the class membership numbers will settle in and we will mature as a class. Do we panic, no, we go about selling the boat and the class to the local kid, the recent college grad, the family with 3 kids, etc.



The J-24 has transitioned from being teh new very expensive hot shot fururistic one design to being the old sturdy unkillable and now very cheap to buy ancient racing toy.



Yes you CAN sopend $80,000 on a J-24 but you can also find a J-24 for $2500 that can be sailed.



The question might be..



How do we make those $2500 boats into an ASSETT for the game??



Can we modify our rules such that teh $2500 boat can be much more easily made competitive with teh $80,000 inverstment??



Maybe we don't want to. maybe we don't need to. maybe teh game will die if we don't.



Mostly?? I think teh J-24 class needs a builder who believes it is possible to build an inexpensive J-24. We need a builder who believes it should be more cost effective to buy a new hull than to refurbish an old hull.



If teh builder had molds in proper condition such that the new boats came out race ready...not one sheet of sandpaper touches teh boat after it pops from teh mold and the boat exactly fits teh keel templates...for instance... I believe the j-24 would have a great future.

same goes for teh J-22.



But for one reason or another, J-24s ahve never been built by people whgo think teh ONLY way to build a molded product is out of a correctly shaped and well maintained mold.



Yappity blabbedy..blah...

I have and will continue to support the class to the best of my ability, including finding my replacement, if necessary.

P

[USA190520]

There's a comment in the rules regarding building a bookcase for additional hull weight.


Bookcase....

Book case, in a j24...


Makes the whole shroud vs stanchion debate seem worthwhile.



So the question is, Oak mission style or mahogany in an east lake design with beveled glass doors?

[stinger]

With Eric having left, we now have a chance to rebrand the J24 and create a new marketing effort to rebuild the class. First and foremost, having active fleet captains is crucial. I have no idea who is who and in which fleet. Each and every fleet/district captain should be rebuilding the email list of owners and crew members. That is how I'm approaching our rebuild in Ottawa Canada. My goal was to attract 1-2 new boats a year to hit 10 boats. We're now at 8 with 1 boat not racing but sitting in a garage. Our one design regatta had 9 j24 last weekend. We could have easily been 12 with 3 local boats missing out on the action but after hearing how much fun they missed out on, they are ready to sign up for next year. Wether they will sign up is another story. I must say that the price of sails is getting out of whack but it's not because of the carbon pole that we are losing in numbers. I'd like to see them increase the weight or lessen it and make it 4 people with a bigger jib. My preference would be to increase it so that 5 normal human beings could race together. I've been in the class since 09 and when I learned how much the class was spending on salary, i was shocked. That money should have been spent creating momentum for the class. Maybe even creating a partnership with the Americas Cup. How many AC skippers have J24 roots? A ton! Having open worlds is great, but the 700$ price tag for the entry fee, the event being held for more than 5 days, the price of new sails, the shitty economy, the price of gas, etc, it is now time to rethink the class. The worlds are a chance of a lifetime, but to take basically 8 days off and spend that kind of cash in this economy is weighing heavy on a lot of teams.
Lots to talk about!!!!

[entropy]

"Mostly?? I think teh J-24 class needs a builder who believes it is possible to build an inexpensive J-24. We need a builder who believes it should be more cost effective to buy a new hull than to refurbish an old hull."


The fact is that new J/24s are less expensive now than they have EVER been. We hear this one all the time... I bought my J/24 for $14,800 in 1978. Somehow those same people forget that they bought their house for $26,000 the year before. My standing offer to anyone is. "We will sell you a boat at 1978 prices if you sell us your house at 1978 prices." No takers yet.

The base boat is $49,900 and comes with a faired keel, trailer and a bunch of other stuff that was optional. Plug $14,800 and 1978 into an inflation calculator and you get $52,166.00 . I don't know what trailers cost back then, so I didn't plug that in. If you really go apples to apples, the new boats work out even cheaper.

Sorry if my facts fuck up your perfectly good rant.

http://data.bls.gov/...1978&year2=2012

[Gouvernail]

The base boat is $49,900 and comes with a faired keel, trailer and a bunch of other stuff that was optional. Plug $14,800 and 1978 into an inflation calculator and you get $52,166.00 . I don't know what trailers cost back then, so I didn't plug that in. If you really go apples to apples, the new boats work out even cheaper.

Sorry if my facts fuck up your perfectly good rant.

http://data.bls.gov/...1978&year2=2012

Great start!!!


Keep working at it.



Perhaps consider making a mold off a boat after the thing is faired and ready to race and build the boats with tooling that creates a ready to use finished product.



The lazerettes went away a few years ago. Why is there a front hatch??



Toerails as part of teh deck mold?

Forget about the interior all together.



Mold in a motor well


Entirely revisit the keel construction. the same weight distribition could be achieved if the keel skin were molder plastic and the keel were filled with a lead casting set in as Ensigns use.


the entire deck could be rebuilt so teh boat is comfortable for sailing ..while maintaining teh weight distribution for racing.



Old boats, although horribly uncomfortable would still be 100% scompetitive. New decks could be dropped on with a relatively simple retrofit deck kit...including bulkheads and all so the boat could be modernized.


There really ought to be a rule based upon this principle>>>..Anybody caught with sandpaper withing 100 feet of a new boat loses his measurement certificate.



A J-24 is a very special sailing machine. There really is nothing quite like it in about a 10 mph wind with respect to..It simple sails like a boat should sail.

OH yeah... and lets put some nice big handles on the shrouds so we can roll tack easily!!!

[entropy]

There has been talk of molded in toerails. It would look cool and probably make the boat stiffer. Would it be a benefit to the average owner... maybe not. Repairing smashed toerails is pretty easy now. Really, all you need is a screwdriver. Repairing the molded toerail will be much more involved.

We have been been putting new decks on old boats for a while now. Fixing / painting a deck is about the most expensive thing we can do to a 24. Cost wise, it is almost a wash between painting and replacing. When the lid is off, it's a great time to replace bulkheads and do whatever the interior needs. The boats look awesome when it's all done.

Pretty unlikely that this will ever become a DIY kit.

Fairing... The boats are made of polyester. Polyester shrinks... some boats need more fairing post molding, others less. One of the great things about the class is that no one gets stuck with a 'bad' boat. Other classes have good boats and bad boats and there's not much you can do about it. What really happens in those classes is extensive 'gelcoat repairs'. Hell, just be upfront about it.

New tooling / cheap boats - you want us to make the boats cheaper, but you also want us to spend a shit ton on new tooling. As long as we make the boats out of polyester, the tool doesn't matter as much as you think. We could make boats nice and fair every time out of epoxy and cook 'em in the oven. It's cheaper to fair 'em later.

The biggest thing the J/24 has going for it is 5500. There are about 5499 other J/24s to race against all over the world. Most people are confident that the boats are pretty equivalent and the racing is pretty fair. I don't see many of these suggestions making the boat better or cheaper for many of the existing base. No interior sounds good, but not too many people want to spend a lot of time inside their boats with a grinder.

[Gouvernail]

There are only 5500 J-24 owners. There are Billions and billions of potential owners. the best thing that can be done for teh 5500 owners is to figure out how to get another 50,000 people to buy the J24.


You only need to convince one in a million people to buy a new J-24 and you will sell 300 in the US.


That doesn't seem like a dauntingly high percentage of individuals.



it is a fglass half full half enpty thing.



If J-24 sailing were just 0.00001% more popular....

[stinger]

Rebuilding the class isnt about moulds at this point. For example the US Nationals are being held now at one of the most beautiful spots in the world, YET, we haven't heard anything on SA or on the class website, or via email list about it. We should be seeing amazing video and great pics. I've been letting my J24 blog go a little bit over the last few months due to family reasons but the time when I get the most hits is when people are expecting results. Tonight, last night and last week were prime time to build excitement. Pure marketing play...

[USA190520]

With Eric having left, we now have a chance to rebrand the J24 and create a new marketing effort to rebuild the class. First and foremost, having active fleet captains is crucial. I have no idea who is who and in which fleet. Each and every fleet/district captain should be rebuilding the email list of owners and crew members. That is how I'm approaching our rebuild in Ottawa Canada. My goal was to attract 1-2 new boats a year to hit 10 boats. We're now at 8 with 1 boat not racing but sitting in a garage. Our one design regatta had 9 j24 last weekend. We could have easily been 12 with 3 local boats missing out on the action but after hearing how much fun they missed out on, they are ready to sign up for next year. Wether they will sign up is another story. I must say that the price of sails is getting out of whack but it's not because of the carbon pole that we are losing in numbers. I'd like to see them increase the weight or lessen it and make it 4 people with a bigger jib. My preference would be to increase it so that 5 normal human beings could race together. I've been in the class since 09 and when I learned how much the class was spending on salary, i was shocked. That money should have been spent creating momentum for the class. Maybe even creating a partnership with the Americas Cup. How many AC skippers have J24 roots? A ton! Having open worlds is great, but the 700$ price tag for the entry fee, the event being held for more than 5 days, the price of new sails, the shitty economy, the price of gas, etc, it is now time to rethink the class. The worlds are a chance of a lifetime, but to take basically 8 days off and spend that kind of cash in this economy is weighing heavy on a lot of teams.
Lots to talk about!!!!

+1, I know of a couple of boats that planned to go to worlds, ordered sails etc but have since cancelled orders and will not attend for that exact reason, after sails, food, travel, lodging and misc expenses it's a 5-7k regatta...

We spent that to go to Europe and do a worlds..

[USA190520]

"Mostly?? I think teh J-24 class needs a builder who believes it is possible to build an inexpensive J-24. We need a builder who believes it should be more cost effective to buy a new hull than to refurbish an old hull."


The fact is that new J/24s are less expensive now than they have EVER been. We hear this one all the time... I bought my J/24 for $14,800 in 1978. Somehow those same people forget that they bought their house for $26,000 the year before. My standing offer to anyone is. "We will sell you a boat at 1978 prices if you sell us your house at 1978 prices." No takers yet.

The base boat is $49,900 and comes with a faired keel, trailer and a bunch of other stuff that was optional. Plug $14,800 and 1978 into an inflation calculator and you get $52,166.00 . I don't know what trailers cost back then, so I didn't plug that in. If you really go apples to apples, the new boats work out even cheaper.

Sorry if my facts fuck up your perfectly good rant.

http://data.bls.gov/...1978&year2=2012

Jboats Argentina, Roberto authier builds (IMHO) the nicest j24 in the world, his attention to detail is second to none and the boats come in less than watercrap 24's

If I were buying a new boat again, it'd be straight from Roberto.

[stinger]

I hear the new waterline boat is sweet though but no one will come close to Roberto's for a while. Beautiful craftmanship.

[USA190520]

I've heard the new ones are sweet as well, and I may have been a bit harsh in calling watecraft crap. They're not.